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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Mar 1972

Vol. 259 No. 14

Membership of EEC: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by the Taoiseach on 21st March, 1972:
That the Dáil takes note of the White Paper—The Accession of Ireland to the European Communities—and the Supplement thereto.
Debate resumed on the following amendment:
To add to the motion the following:
"and deplores the inadequacy of the negotiations described therein and rejects the terms set out".
—(Deputy Keating).

Before moving the adjournment of the debate last night I had been referring to the fact that due to misrepresentation and for many other reasons people have been talking about our defence commitments on entry into Europe. As most people know, but it is no harm to restate, shortly after the war three of the smallest countries in Europe, the Benelux countries, Belgium, Holland and Luxembourg, found difficulty in getting their industrial exports into other European countries. This was due to the fact—and we have had experience of this—that they manufactured certain articles and exported to Germany, France, Italy, Britain or even to Ireland and they found that when the industry was going fairly well some of the countries with which they traded imposed a duty on their goods. The Benelux countries decided that there was need for a trading arrangement amongst the countries in Europe. With Italy, West Germany and France, the Benelux countries formed what is now known as the EEC. This was simply a trading association, very similar to the trading arrangement we have with Britain.

It cannot be suggested that because we have a trading agreement with Britain, we have also a defence commitment or anything of that nature. It was mentioned by the Taoiseach here yesterday and by other speakers, it should be put on the record of the House and should be stated publicly as often as possible, because of the amount of publicity that is obtained by those who oppose entry into the EEC for the suggestion that if we enter the EEC we will have some sort of defence commitment, that this is completely untrue. The sooner those who make that suggestion cease to do so, the better.

We have not spent public money on it. You people have been pouring out public money on it.

We have been telling the people the truth. Will the Deputy tell the House later, is there any commitment in the existing EEC to a defence policy in Europe?

The Deputy was talking about misrepresentation.

It is not misrepresentation to state that our entry into Europe involves any defence obligations? What are they? Silence gives consent.

Silence says nothing. The Government are spending public money all the time. The Deputy will not talk about the public money being spent on it.

One Deputy at a time.

This is a public matter

I was referring to the fact that our application to enter Europe involves no defence commitment to Europe or to the EEC. This I stated and I repeat it.

Fan agus feicfidh tú.

The misrepresentation was probably brought about by the fact that certain member states and certain applicant states are members of NATO. America is a member of NATO but is not a member of the EEC. The Deputy will not reply to me when I ask him the question, does our application for entry to the EEC involve any defence commitment?

Neither the Deputy nor I knows.

The Deputy does, like hell.

The Deputy should read some of the documents that have been published or he should go over to Brussels and inquire.

I am not interested in documents. I am interested in the facts.

Take the child easy.

The Parliamentary Secretary told me to grow up in regard to the inquiry by the Public Accounts Committee. Who was vindicated? Was it the Parliamentary Secretary or I who was vindicated by the Public Accounts Committee?

The Deputy should either grow up or shut up.

Will Deputy O'Donovan allow Deputy Nolan to continue?

I will allow Deputy Nolan to continue without saying another word, not because the Parliamentary Secretary intruded.

One of the major worries in regard to our entry into Europe is in regard to the loss of jobs. Apart from the jobs associated with agriculture and jobs in industry that supply the home market and the various service industries, there is the problem of the 35,000 jobs in exporting industries. This matter naturally will give this House and the employees and firms concerned cause for concern. The question is, if there are 35,000 persons employed in export industries and if we do not enter Europe what will happen to those 35,000 jobs? To whom will we export? I do not think there is much hope of exporting to the Aran Islands. I do not think there is a great market there for our industrial goods. I ask those people who are opposed to entry to Europe to indicate where we will export to. It is a fact that any country exporting to the existing EEC has to meet a 24 per cent duty. No exporting industry in this country that I am aware of could compete against a 24 per cent duty. Therefore, the 35,000 jobs in the export industries, for a beginning, will be gone.

I believe that this is one of the reasons why the Congress of Trade Unions and many unions who are members of that Congress are not taking the advice of the Labour Party and other political parties who are opposing entry to the EEC. I know quite a lot of members of the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union in my constituency who will vote for entry to Europe. They know very well that their jobs, whether in home market industries or export industries, will be in jeopardy if we do not become a member of the EEC. It is not possible to remain as we are if Britain, Northern Ireland, Norway and Denmark become members.

Will they? Is the Deputy certain that they will?

I am satisfied that they will. They will not be influenced by the Deputy.

I was right twice —in 1961 and in 1967. Has the Deputy been right at all?

I will be on the record of the House for this: I will lay the Deputy five to one that we will go in.

Lay what you like.

I am giving the Deputy the facts and will have a bet with him now if he wants it. We know that during the transitional period if there is not protection some industries will be put out of business. Take the motor car assembly industry. If we were to go straight in, without any protection for an industry of that kind, the competition that we would meet would put the industry out of business because it is not a car manufacturing industry; it is an assembly industry and could not compete. Irish people are prepared to pay £200 or £300 more for a car in order to protect jobs during the transitional period. The terms of our negotiations are that we can have certain protection during the transitional period for other industries that might not be able to meet the full brunt of competition. As someone has pointed out already, any farmer or farm labourer or any person who is employed in any of the industries associated with agriculture who does not vote for entry into Europe should be certified. Whatever about industry and the problems that may exist in this sector, if we do not enter Europe our agricultural industry is doomed.

There is no point in saying glibly that we can export to Spain, Portugal, Iceland, Latvia, Lithuania or Albania, to mention but a few places that have been quoted. These people know that because we cannot export lamb to France at the moment we are compelled to sell it cheaply elsewhere. If there is such a tremendous market in Iceland, Portugal or Spain, I cannot understand why these people do not try to get into these markets. I am satisfied that there is not a market in these countries for our agricultural exports.

Whether we like it or not, agriculture is the basis of our economy. The city of Dublin would not exist if we had not a strong agricultural market. Our towns and villages are business places for the farming community and others who live in those areas and their prosperity depends on agriculture. From the point of view of the rural areas, I cannot see any reason why there should not be a 90 per cent or 100 per cent vote in favour of entry into Europe.

Inevitably, red herrings have been drawn across the matter of entry into Europe so far as agriculture and land are concerned. It has been said that if we enter the EEC every German industrialist will come here to buy up our land. France was one of the founder members of the EEC. In Germany, Belgium and Holland there was a free market in land and they did not worry too much about the purchase of land. However, in north-eastern France people were worried about German industrialists who might buy up their land and they introduced their own land laws. If they could do it I do not see why we should not do the same.

When a person entered France he was obliged to reside there for three years before he could even take land in conacre. It was necessary for him to be resident for a further 13 years and to be working on the land before he could purchase land. If we had a law which ensured that only a person engaged in agriculture could purchase land, I think the people would be satisfied with such an arrangement.

We have heard frequently that the days of the small farmer are numbered. Possibly a reason for this was that during the sixties the number leaving the land, whether they were small farmers or farm workers, averaged about 10,000 per year. It is estimated that during the ten years after our entry into Europe this flight from the land will be reduced by approximately 3,000 per annum. It was not because of EEC conditions that the people left the land in the sixties. Those of us from rural areas know it was due to mechanisation and to the availability of better incomes in other sectors of the community.

In the Common Market there are certain measures of protection and incentives for the small farmers, somewhat similar to the incentive bonus scheme in this country. In page 7 of the booklet entitled Into Europe it is stated:

The farm development schemes which are proposed under the programme do not lay down any minimum size of farm or number of stock for participation in farm development schemes. The only condition is that the farm should be able to show promise of being able to give one or two workers, for example, a farmer and his son, a minimum income equal to the average income in comparable non-farming jobs in the locality.

Our farm incentive bonus scheme is approximately £75 per annum at the moment—it started off at £50. There are proposals being considered in Brussels in connection with this scheme; consideration is being given to an amount of £250 per annum over a four-year period as an incentive to the small farmer to remain on the land.

We have heard much about social welfare, housing and health matters and these matters must be considered. All these items, as well as defence and matters relating to justice, will be discussed here. Brussels will not make any decisions with regard to these matters; it will be for this House to decide regarding old age pensions, widows' pensions and unemployment benefit. However, because we will save £30 million in our first year of entry we will be able to give a well-deserved increase to the people who are in need of social welfare increases. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary would agree with me on this point although I appreciate he cannot say anything about the matter before the Budget.

Where did the Deputy get the £30 million from? Does he think the Germans and the French are philanthropists?

It will be paid for out of the common fund. Has the Deputy read the terms of negotiation?

Of course I have read them. With respect to the Deputy, the French will agree to anything in principle but they will kill it in practice. The same applies to the Germans.

They have not done it to Belgium, Holland or Luxembourg.

That is because Belgium is not an exporting country for agricultural products, and neither is Holland.

Does the Deputy mean that Holland does not export agricultural produce?

This conversation is not in order.

I should like to comment on the North of Ireland. I know that Dr. Paisley, Mr. William Craig and others have joined with the anti-Marketeers in the South in an effort to prevent Ireland from entering Europe——

They are not always wrong.

I often wonder why people who call themselves superior-type Republicans have joined with Ian Paisley and William Craig in the "No EEC" campaign. Everyone in this House knows that if we do not go into Europe and the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland enter, not only will there be a political barrier between the six north-eastern counties and the Twenty-six Counties but there will be an economic barrier. It will not be a barrier so far as Britain is concerned but it will be a barrier between Europe and the Twenty-six Counties. These are facts we must face. Then there will be the situation where there will be a growth rate in the North and a depression here. You will have no market for your agricultural produce. You will not be able to sell your industrial products and you will be in the position of having a rich North and a poor South. How could anyone expect the people of the North——

Have we not got that at present?

There are quite a number of farmers in the North and when we enter Europe the farmers in the North and South will be on equal levels. It is the Government's stated intention to equalise our social welfare benefits with those of the North. If the people in the North have an equal standard of living with the people in the South, or vice versa, this will help to bring about the reunification of our country instead of some of the means which are being adopted at the moment. When I concluded last night, I said that the people of Ireland are not as gullible as some people think they are. They are satisfied that there is no future for Ireland except in a new Europe.

They are not that gullible despite all the money the Government have spent.

I am satisfied that the constituents I represent will give a resounding "Yes" in May when we have the referendum and a united Ireland, we hope, will be part of a united Europe for the benefit of everyone.

The Deputy is wrong on both counts. We will not have the referendum in May and the people will not give a resounding "Yes".

I find that within and without this House there are two distinct camps, one highly enthusiastic for entry into Europe and one vehemently against entry. One of the tragedies is that the two camps are creating a situation in which a balanced appraisal is impossible for the ordinary man. We are expected to read documents and to inform ourselves as best we can on the problems facing the country. I am sure that the least informed of us is more informed than, for instance, the small farmer or the industrial worker in the city or in the country. This is a perfectly natural situation.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present.

The debate on this subject has not been confined to this House but has been taking place all over the country and it has been marked by the fact that those who are keenly in favour of entry are inclined to over-state their case and to say that everything in the Common Market is perfect and that no disadvantage of any kind will accrue to this country from entry into Europe. Those who take the other view are also inclined to over-state their case. If I were to apportion blame, I would say that those enthusiastic Europeans who believe we must go into Europe—as I do; I believe that—over-state their case to the stage at which they rile and annoy those who are not so enthusiastic.

If you are an industrial worker in a sensitive industry and there is a possibility that you might be rationalised, and if you live directly opposite to your work and can walk across the street to have your lunch and go back to work at no cost to yourself for transport, you do not want to be rationalised. We all want rationalisation as long as it is the other person who is rationalised. The over-enthusiastic European to some extent defeats his case by over-stating it and creates opposition to his case by his very overstatement.

It seems to me that within the Fianna Fáil Party in this House and around the country there are a large number of people over-stating this case. I have no doubt that, as the leader of our party made clear yesterday, on balance the only right decision that can be taken is that in favour of complete accession to the European Community. It is wise that we should look at the matter in a balanced way. It is wise that we should say to people that there are pros and cons. It is wise that we should say to a person: "Yes, you are in a sensitive industry but the alternative in your case is—" and give him the alternative, rather than saying: "The only hope for you is to go into the EEC." The relatively uninformed person will react against that sort of thing. If he knows enough about his own industry he knows it is sensitive, and he knows there are dangers.

If everybody keeps telling him: "You are going to knock on the gates of heaven and be taken within" and does not tell him what the path to heaven is or that heaven may not have all the qualities of the supernatural Heaven to which we all aspire, he will react and say: "I do not want in. I want to stay precisely as I am." Therefore, we must look at this situation in a balanced way. We must tell people what the problems are. We must tell them that on balance the choice for them is to go in. We must tell them the bad things as well as the good things. As briefly as possible that is what I propose to do.

On the general situation, if we stay out we are living in an economic island. We aspire to the same standard of life as the people of Europe and the same standard of behaviour. We have the same ambitions. We want to see our educational facilities improved as they do. We want to keep abreast of them. We require a referendum to decide if we can go in whereas Britain does not. Nor does France require a referendum to decide whether its people want Britain in.

They are getting a referendum.

I know, but they do not need it so far as their law is concerned. That front has been cleared somewhat by the visit of the French Premier to England. I believe that referendum will decide that Britain may go in. We must look at the problem without allowing enthusiasts on either side to bedevil what should be mature consideration. The ordinary citizen cannot be expected to go into every detail. Many will attend debates and political meetings, conventions and so on. I shall go to a debate on the Common Market in the technological college tomorrow night and on the following night I shall go to a Fine Gael convention in Limerick concerned with the same subject. Many will attend but many will not. It is also a fact that in addition to those on all political sides and in all political parties who desire to produce for citizens an honest and balanced appraisal, to give the facts as they know them, there will be people who for one reason or another—one reason may be the disturbed political situation in this country at present— will not desire to tell the truth and will rather wish to produce untruths and half-facts which may lead people one way or another, mostly to vote against accession to Europe which, in my view, would be a tragedy.

A grave responsibility rests on every politician, first, to apprise himself of the pros and cons and then, without inflection of one kind or another, to convey to the greatest possible number of people, and particularly to his constituents, what those pros and cons are and to what extent they affect the particular area and the people to whom he is speaking. My plea is that Parliament should, in the most commonsense way, examine the situation and those who are extremely enthusiastic and refuse to see any flaws, or perhaps refuse to talk about them, should talk about them and realise that there are thousands of people ranging from small farmers, who I think have been strangely misinformed, to middle-aged industrial workers who believe their industries will be liquidated and who at present have the wrong idea.

It is necessary that we should tell them of the alternatives and their possible effects. The most obvious alternative would be something that, I presume, most people would reject out of hand. That would be to stay as we are. If we do, we are here on an economic island, or rather on an uneconomic island, an island that would be paying to Common Market countries, including Britain when she enters, a common external tariff of something of the order on average of 12½ per cent on all our agricultural and industrial goods.

Therefore, we cannot remain as we are.

The Minister has clearly echoed my view. The next thing we must consider in a general way is an arrangement of some kind such as Greece and similar countries have whereby we could have some tariff reduction. Certain countries are trying to negotiate such an arrangement at present but no country in the temperate zone has so far negotiated such an arrangement. There are two things about such an arrangement that must be said. First, it is extremely easy for a country in a warmer climate producing, for instance, horticultural and agricultural goods to make such an arrangement because it always includes a quid pro quo. If there is an arrangement whereby fruits or vegetables can come from a warmer climate into the Common Market countries then, with, perhaps, the exception of Italy and southern France, it is unlikely that there will be a heavy flood at cheaper prices of such fruits and vegetables back to the warmer climate. But in the temperate zones where, in the agricultural field, for instance, the products might be cereals, beef, mutton, lamb, pork, and so on, that can be produced perhaps exactly the same at quite near the same price in certain parts of Common Market countries, there would be the quid pro quo. On industrial goods there would also be the quid pro quo whereby, if we got a reduced common external tariff for our industrial goods going into Common Market countries, we would have to allow industrial goods in here at a reduced tariff which in all likelihood would be similar to that which we obtained in the Common Market countries.

But it was made clear, even before our negotiations began, that in regard to agricultural goods nothing would be acceptable except complete accession to the EEC. As regards some form of association such as has been negotiated by countries in warmer climates, there appears to me to be no practicable alternative there for us particularly if our agricultural goods could not be the subject of the association. Surely the figure that has been mentioned— Deputy O'Donovan derided it—of a release of agricultural subsidies of something of the order of over £30 million is extremely important to this country. My party's policy is that if the Exchequer were relieved of this liability the first priority should be to pass it over in great part to social welfare recipients because first, their pittance is a miserable one at present and secondly, there will be an increase in costs in EEC which would necessitate, even without improvement for these people, a movement of a considerable amount of that sum across to social welfare recipients.

On those two grounds that if an association were to be the alternative and agriculture excluded and we would lose the relief of agricultural subsidies to the tune of over £30 million while we would still have to pay a tariff, at present undecided and about which anybody here or any EEC expert can only conjecture, on all our goods, association for a temperate country like ours producing a large volume of agricultural goods seems to be, in the words of the punter, just "not on".

There is also the question of quid pro quo on industrial goods. To borrow a phrase from P. G. Wodehouse, “the imagination boggles” at what would happen to our industry if our country were to be flooded with industrial goods from Common Market countries while we could not enjoy the benefits of Community membership. Association with the Community as distinct from full membership would not give us, either, the safety measures outlined in certain Articles of the Treaty of Rome which can be used by Members in times of difficulty. That is another reason why association is not acceptable. Small farmers were misled to a considerable extent by the views expressed by Dr. Mansholt on what he regarded as being the ideal size of farms and herds within EEC conditions. Very few of what we would consider to be ideals for our own lives and for our country can be attained. If Dr. Mansholt could be faulted in this regard it is only because he was too honest. I ask the House what would be the position of the small farmer if, for instance, he had to pay a tariff on all exports to Britain? What would be the position if they had to pay a tariff on every calf that was born on the farm and which, perhaps, his richer counterparts in Meath or Kildare could have retained and exported as a bullock? If there was a tariff it would be taken into account all along the line to the farmer who sells the animal finally for export. What would be his situation in such circumstances if he was not in a position, at the same time, to gain any of the benefits of EEC membership?

We must face the fact that we will have a higher cost economy. The 1 per cent increase in costs each year after we enter the EEC has been mentioned by various economists who have a very pro-EEC alignment. This is not accurate because the increase in costs will be much higher than 1 per cent. What would be the position if in those circumstances farmers had to rely on our Exchequer for subsidies to keep up the price of milk and to keep down the price of fertilisers? As prices will rise as much outside the EEC as within, would not the Exchequer which might be in very great difficulty, have to increase social welfare benefits and increase also, perhaps, the price of milk? In my considered view the lot of the small farmer would be a very poor one if we did not join the Community. There would be a considerable disimprovement in his livelihood. With the industrial worker, perhaps he is the person who stands to lose most by our staying out because there are EEC provisions whereby in the under-developed areas of this country from which there is much emigration of young boys and girls because of lack of the service industries, hotels and so on, there would be a payment in grant of £600 from the social fund per worker for each new worker employed. Also, there would be low interest rates drawn up on farm plans in conjunction with the farm advisory services and there would be money available to small farmers to make viable concerns of their holdings.

Since Mansholt's views were published there have been many changes. We must tell the truth to the small farmer. He will never be as rich per acre as the large farmer because of the cost of machinery and because a large farmer can become more efficient but he will be far better off within the EEC than without.

Land hunger is one of the endemic problems in Ireland and the idea was put forward that any citizen of any EEC country could purchase land here after our accession. It is true that according to the Treaty of Rome and to some agreements made since the Treaty was signed that after two years residence here, a national of any other Common Market country could purchase a farm of land. However, it is true also, as was indicated by the Minister for Lands at Questions Time today, that our legislations in relation to areas where there is land hunger is in line with the Treaty of Rome and that while it might be possible for a European to live here for two years and buy a farm in an area where no stop order has been served on an owner, our own legislation which governs the position of land hunger and which relates to the provision of land for people whose holdings are uneconomic would hold. There is nothing in the Treaty of Rome that would prevent us from continuing to use various sections of the 1965 Land Act. That is not to say that I approve of all sections of that Act—some of them were obnoxious—but there is nothing to stop us from operating the Act or any of the other Land Acts to maintain our present situation whereby the Exchequer can provide land for people whose holdings are uneconomic, either on the basis of an exchange holding or on the basis of new land. There is nothing at all repugnant to the EEC Treaty in doing that, and it would be an extraordinary situation if it were possible, when there would always be five to ten people looking for the one piece of land, that a European that had arrived only two years before was the most acceptable applicant to one of the lay commissioners who make these decisions in Merrion Street. There would be no situation in which one could envisage that occurring.

A great deal has been said about our loss of sovereignty. Here I want to leave altogether the bounds of the Rome Treaty and the bounds of our Treaty of Accession and any other document there is, because it is like the situation in a poker game when the chips are down. The whole thinking on the EEC right from the start seems to have been that never again should there be a war in Europe, and that there should be a United States of Europe, and that the progression of that economically should be aligned, as it is aligned, to the terms of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade and the Kennedy round thereon. When we come closer to a United States of Europe and when, with the removal of restrictions on trade we become a closer unit, then any enemy from outside who strikes a blow at one strikes a blow at all. If we have a heavy export at that stage to a certain country and it is going to be affected by a blow from any other part of the globe then surely we are affected by it, too.

I do not think that means a real loss of sovereignty. If you examine it pragmatically and as a fact of life you will find that we are to some extent putting our contribution into the pot of broth that is being made in the EEC with 12 ingredients. It is like a tax that is imposed here in this House or an economic measure which is taken in a budget and which can be removed within a few weeks. There is a precedent for this, the famous occasion many years ago when Mr. J. A. Costello was Taoiseach and the subsidy on butter was removed: there was an election within three weeks and the subsidy on butter was restored. If the subsidy on butter was removed and stayed removed for about a year it would probably be almost an economic impossibility to put back the clock. If we go into Europe and economically come closer and closer to the other States in that ten-member community, then in my view it becomes more difficult day by day and year by year to unscramble the egg, and there is to some extent a loss of sovereignty. However, it is a loss of sovereignty because any other situation seems to me to be impracticable. It is like the girl who got married. You might say she lost her virginity, but if she did she gained something very much more important and more enlivening for herself in this world, and that was she became a married woman who raised a family.

There are ladies in the gallery.

That is the way I view our accession into Europe, that we join a family and make a family. It is all a cod for somebody to say our sovereignty is not affected. It is affected, because when we become a member of that family we surely share at the table, and if the table is affected by any military or economic attack from outside, then because we are in we have to fight our battle with them. That is the normal and ordinary way to approach it.

There is also the question of the Rome Treaty itself and the way it works, and now the Treaty of Accession, Britain's White Paper and our White Paper, which looks rather multicoloured. It is possible under the Rome Treaty to get the sort of protection during the transitional period of which we should have been availing under the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. The Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement portrays free trade over a ten-year period, but the White Paper that is bringing Britain in and the White Paper that is bringing us in portrays free trade over a five-year period. The Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement did not start to bite until about the sixth year. This one will start to bite inside about three years and the benefits will also start to accrue inside two or three years.

The industrial committee of my party complained bitterly last week that the Minister for Industry and Commerce did not operate Article 1, subsection (2) (v) in order to provide extra protection during the transitional period for areas of great sensitivity, or that if he did not do that bilaterally with Britain he should have done it unilaterally under Article 19. Similarly, there are sections in the Treaty of Rome which, during this five-year period, will help us if we have a difficulty. There is no precedent for this, because the French electrical goods industry was going through an extremely difficult time from cheap imports from Italy. They sought an 18-month period in which they would rationalise their various factories and were granted a nine-month period with, I think, an extension for a further six months. This was done under Article 226 of the Rome Treaty, which I quote:

1. In the course of the transitional period, where there are serious difficulties which are likely to persist in any sector of economic activity or difficulties which may seriously impair the economic situation in any region, a member state may ask for authorisation to take measures to safeguard in order to restore the situation and adapt the sector concerned to the Common Market economy.

2. At the request of the State concerned, the Commission shall, by an expedited procedure immediately determine the measures of safeguard which it considers necessary, specifying the conditions and particulars of application.

3. The measures authorised under paragraph 2 may include derogations from the provisions of this Treaty, to the extent and for the periods strictly necessary for the achievements of the objects referred to in paragraph 1. Priority shall be given in the choice of such measures to those which will least disturb the functioning of the Common Market.

Therefore, we have during that five-year period an opportunity to seek, where we have difficulties, alleviation of those difficulties by referring the Common Market authorities to Article 226 of the Treaty of Rome. There are further articles to which I want to refer later, but where we are in difficulty in relation to availability of money, for instance, the building up of our industries here and our agriculture there is a special arrangement. It is interesting that the banks have announced in the past week a new term loan system.

But under Articles 104 and 108 of the Treaty of Rome there can be ad hoc provisions made whereby, by means of subsidy, we can have one group in a country enjoying a lower interest rate than the going rate and another group paying the going rate. That would mean that small farmers west of the Shannon, say, could be given in respect of agreed developments of their particular type of farming subsidy on interest rates and money to do the job. I was advised when I was last in Brussels that credits for this can be granted only by agreement with all the member countries and the interpretation of that first decision is covered in Article 108. I quote:

When a member state is in difficulties or seriously threatened with difficulties as regards its balance of payments as a results either of overall disequilibrium of the balance of payments or of the kinds of currency at its disposal and where such difficulties are likely, in particular, to prejudice the functioning of the Common Market or the progressive establishment of the common commercial policy, the Commission shall without delay examine the situation of such State and the action which, in making use of all the means at its disposal, that State has taken or may take in conformity with the provisions of Article 104. The Commission shall indicate the measures which its recommends to the State concerned to adopt.

Article 104 states:

Each member state shall pursue the economic policy necessary to ensure the equilibrum of its overall balance of payments and to maintain confidence in its currency, while ensuring a high level of employment and the stability of the level of prices.

I am advised that you can get this sort of situation in areas of difficulty and that between Articles 104, 108, and 226 such provisions would be clearly available to countries such as ours.

I had some correspondence this morning from a particular trade organisation with regard to value added tax. As sure as night follows day, when we enter the Common Market, there will have to be value added tax. I disagree with the Government as to the timing of the application of this tax. We must remember that Italy has only now stopped arguing about when it shall be applied. In the Treaty of Rome Italy subscribed to the idea of value added tax, but it is only now being applied.

Farmers will have to pay value added tax on certain inputs into agriculture. According to the White Paper, they will get a pay back at the first production stage of a percentage estimated to recoup them the amount of tax they will have paid for fertilisers, machinery and other such items of expenditure. I am not at all sure that this pay back at the first production stage will reach the pockets of the farmers. I am not satisfied that this is the right approach. We should have been enabled within the Common Market provisions to have a zero value added tax on farmers' input and there would then be no need for a pay back at the first production stage. The whole situation could become very complex because so many different factors enter in. In the case of flour and bread at least 100 factors must be passed in consideration. This figure of 3.8 per cent could become very nebulous. It could be swallowed up in the 99C costs. In the case of fertilisers, machinery and so on, which produce the production, I notice the farmer will get his 5.6 per cent because that will be merely a mathematical compilation. It is like the payment of turnover tax or selective wholesale tax.

That problem will be solved by the amendments circulated to the Bill.

I cannot conceive how the mind of man will in all these highly complex manufactures of goods from cereals be able to extricate that pay back of 3.8 per cent. I do not think anyone will succeed in getting a clear-cut pay back to the farmer. This is something I must emphasise.

There are other provisions in the Treaty of Rome which must be considered. I have outlined some of the benefits. We will get 60 per cent or 70 per cent higher prices for our beef. We will get 50 per cent higher prices for milk products and access for our industrial goods. The situation is that we can develop into a market of 9/14ths or 64 per cent the size of the United States of America with 10A or 7/14ths of one-half with 6A. This is something that must be clearly understood. We will have that at higher prices and we will have five years in which to gear ourselves against competition. There will be competition from industrial production in the Common Market countries.

Wisdom directs that we should seriously consider the position in the EEC. The Council of Ministers meet in secret. They are equivalent to a Cabinet. I am informed by the best authority in Brussels that decisions will be made public but the views expressed in the Council and the arguments put forward will be secret. I was told that this was why there were all those marathon meetings which went on until 3 o'clock in the morning and resumed again at 9 o'clock in the morning. Every country has a veto and it has taken this length of time to get decisions from the Council of Ministers. It is the ruling body. We will, of course, have the power of veto. We will also have the power to veto things which do not suit Ireland. This can be used not as a power to be difficult, not as a power to retard the influence or the expansion of France or the United Kingdom, it can be used in communion with all the other states to try to get for Ireland the best deal we can. Therefore, it is most necessary that we realise the situation there and the power that we have.

I want to refer to two other sections of the Treaty of Rome. This is probably a very pedantic speech but I feel it is a subject about which one does not make flowery speeches. Article 115 refers to the position during the transitional period which is only five years from the date of our accession. It reads:

In order to ensure that the execution of measures of commercial policy taken in conformity with this Treaty by any Member State shall not be prevented by diversions of commercial traffic, or where disparities between such measures lead to economic difficulties in one or more of the Member States, the Commission shall recommend the methods whereby the other Member States shall provide the necessary co-operation. Failing this the Commission shall authorise the Member States to take the necessary protective measures of which it shall determine the conditions and particulars.

In cases of emergrency and during the transitional period, Member States may themselves take such necessary measures and shall notify them to the other Member States and also to the Commission which may decide that the State concerned shall amend or revoke such measures.

In choosing such measures, priority shall be given to those which cause the least disturbance to the functioning of the Common Market and which take due account of the necessity for expediting, as far as possible, the introduction of the common customs tariff.

Four years ago such an action was taken in a most surprising way on a most surprising commodity. We had an excellent beef trade with the American Forces in Western Germany. Overnight we were excluded from that trade with consequential serious deterioration in cattle prices here. It took about six months for things to revert to normal. During their transitional period a country decided that they did not want our beef and with a flick of their fingers they excluded it.

Article 116 refers to the position after the transitional period. It reads:

As from the end of the transitional period, Member States shall in respect of all matters of particular interest in regard to the Common Market, within the framework of any international organisations of an economic character, only proceed by way of common action. The Commission shall for this purpose submit to the Council, which shall act by means of a qualified majority vote, proposals concerning the scope and implementation of such common action.

During the transitional period, Member States shall consult with each other with a view to concerting their action and, as far as possible, adopting a uniform attitude.

So there is provision that even after the transitional period by majority vote it is possible to have an alleviation where we would be in difficulties.

I should like to refer to certain industries. We have taken certain actions under the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreements on the textile industry. This industry is in trouble all over the world. I was in Brussels about a year ago and at that time there was the Mills Bill in America and there was an urgent desire on the part of the Common Market authorities and America not to place Japan in a difficult position. There was a committee of high ranking members of the civil service side of the EEC in America discussing how it would be possible for the Common Market countries to take some more textile goods from Japan so that the tariff which was contemplated for imposition by America would not affect Japan too much. They did take some extra textiles. We have our textile problems too. It was interesting to find that even though you were dealing with an economy half the size of America both that economy and America can have over-production in a certain type of industry and can be constrained to act together in an effort to get out of their difficulties.

We had a report on the footwear industry from the Committee on Industrial Progress a few months ago. We have difficulties in relation to footwear. It is pretty well accepted that all the factories in the EEC that manufacture footwear cannot continue to survive. A year ago factories had closed down in the Netherlands, France and other places and roughly speaking each EEC country was using as much leather as came forward from its own conversion of hides and was then importing from outside countries. Leather had become more and more expensive and the tendency was to move towards cheaper throw-away footwear. The manufacturing technique for these shoes was so good that at first sight one would not know the difference. This had resulted in the most serious consequences for some of the larger factories who are not so flexible as regards changes in the type of production. We have quite a large number of footwear factories. About half of the operatives work in my constituency so I have a great interest in this. I see two great signs of hope. One is that in my constituency there is a new factory, built from the floor—it availed of grants, of course— exporting to America high-quality men's leather footwear and doing extremely well. About ten days ago in the Irish Independent there was a report of another factory of this type doing extremely well in Kilkenny. The Minister for Foreign Affairs was provided with the 999,999th and the 1,000,001st pair of shoes as a sign that the factory was going well. There is a grave necessity not only in this industry but in all others for a clinical examination of the particular changes that should be made so that a loss situation can be turned into a gain situation. I am not saying that we will succeed all the way. I am quite certain that outside the Common Market there will be graver losses of industrial goods than there will be inside. There will be losses and they must be made up by gains. One way of gaining is by obviating loss. It may not appear as a marvellous figure in a line of statistics but it is valuable if it has the effect that a family is not displaced. That should be the first priority for Departments and the semi-Government companies, such as the Industrial Development Authority, and the various other agencies so that the best possible result can be obtained in what may be an area of difficulty.

The shoe industry is not the only industry which would be affected but it is an example of an opportunity that should be availed of. I was interviewed by the man who deals with shoes on the Civil Service side of the EEC. I do not wish to name the country concerned. He told me that the largest shoe factory in that country would close, through no fault of theirs but because they had got into the position of being inflexible and there was nothing anybody could do to help them to save themselves. That is a frightening thought and we should not allow that to happen here. There should be a clinical examination of all our industries. The best investment an industrialist can make is in sending personnel to Brussels. My experience there was that I got the greatest co-operation from the section dealing with uncommitted nations. Their best co-operation is available to anyone who cares to give the necessary effort and attention to an examination of the various facets of industry and agriculture that would be affected by EEC conditions.

One advice that I was given by the head of the section dealing with uncommitted nations was that during the period before entry and during the transitional period Ireland should make every possible effort to attract industries here that as yet had not got entry for their products into the EEC but who would know that by coming here and availing of the excellent labour force here which is not available in very large areas of the EEC, they would have full entry for their goods into the EEC when we became a member. One section of industry where he thought that would be extremely possible was in the production of light steel presses. Another was plywood manufacture of all qualities, cheap and dear. He suggested that there, again, there was a good opportunity. He quoted a 13 per cent tariff existing at that time which, in plywood at the lower rates, was a very heavy imposition. He suggested that there was an opportunity for us to sell the idea that there was an opportunity for future profit and for us to avail of the expertise and capital which such industries might bring with them.

I discovered that the European Social Fund mentioned in the Treaty of Rome is quite modest. One must relate the figure to the size of the Community but in the first 12 years, 1958 to 1970, the total expenditure was 150 million dollars. There is a new social fund now which can increase subventions from 50 per cent of expenditure on certain items to 80 per cent. It can also give grants to private promoters doing the job of old industries, accepting that there will be disruption of some old industries. One example given to me was the conversion of textile mills that could be affected and in areas where the decision was that long-term structural unemployment was probable. The idea was that the probable expansion of the fund would be very considerable. It might have to be expanded to 100 million dollars a year. That is all 11 months old and may be out of date now. The areas mentioned were the undeveloped areas in the west of Ireland, Brittany, parts of Italy. The information I could get at that stage was that, once decided in principle, the application of the fund could not be run from Brussels; that if we were in a position to convince the Common Market authorities that in the west of Ireland or any depressed area or any area where industrial employment had been affected by the EEC provisions, we having agreed the measures we would take, the application would be from here and the final details and decision would be from here and the regional incentive that we would apply would again be decided from here. This was good news in the middle of a bad part of the case.

I do not want to bore the House with long details of my investigations but it is clear that it is expected that a new member will gain great benefits and will accept changes great or small. In my view, in Ireland the changes will be neither great nor small but there will be some changes. Certain old industries will not survive. The opportunities to set up new industries will be greater than the loss in industrial employment in old industries. The application of the social fund and the exertions of our "Mr. Europe", whoever he may be, in trying to have that fund expanded and applied to the areas of difficulty here are a key point. There must be strict adherence to Articles 104, 108, 115, 116 and 226 of the Treaty of Rome by our "Mr. Europe". These provide that during the transitional period and afterwards we can seek alleviation in any sectors in which difficulties may arise.

The greatest disservice any politician can do is to be too enthusiastically pro-Europe, as if there was no question of there being any problems or difficulties in the future. We have no choice but to enter the EEC. I have tried to convince the House that any form of association is impracticable but, having said that, what we need is hard bargaining. Having entered Europe that bargaining should proceed under the terms of the Treaty of Rome during the period of transition and afterwards.

On our home front we should be operating with the greatest energy towards the protection of existing jobs. We should examine in detail our existing industries in order to check sectors that might find themselves in trouble. We should seek for new industries throughout the world. These industries can enjoy the large grants which we can give them, which are not incompatible with the Treaty of Rome, and which we will be allowed to give until 1980—I think that is the correct date.

If there have to be changes we must adapt to them. We cannot live on an economic island; if we attempt to do this our country will become an uneconomic island. We should make the best out of what I think is a good job for the Irish people, so long as we are not continually told by one section that entry is impossible and by the other section that it is Shangri-La.

I have listened with close attention to Deputy Donegan's detailed and instructive statement. It seemed to me that it marked a certain progress towards realism on behalf of the important party he represents. Deputy Donegan said in his concluding remarks that what is required is hard bargaining. I remember in an earlier stage of these debates a brilliant and cogent speaker of Fine Gael argued here that there was no need to negotiate, that our relations with Europe were so close and friendly that "negotiations" was not the right word. I was glad to hear the even stronger words "hard bargaining" being used because I think this is true.

I should like to address an appeal to Fine Gael which I would ask them to consider. The matter is connected directly with the matter now before this House. I would ask them to study Deputy Keating's amendment. This amendment finds the Government's negotiations defective and calls for rejection of the results of those negotiations.

I understand fully that Fine Gael are committed to entry into the EEC. This is a matter of principle on which they have taken their decision. We differ from that decision but we respect it and we realise it is a decision from which they cannot recede without being inconsistent. However, I would ask them to consider if there is anything in the principles they have adopted which would require them to oppose the amendment in Deputy Keating's name. I would ask them if they cannot support the amendment.

If they oppose the amendment, in effect they are saying not merely that we should enter the Communities but that Fianna Fáil have negotiated the best terms that were attainable. The Labour Party do not believe that this is the case and I think there are many people in Fine Gael who share this belief. I shall attempt to show some of the areas in which one can demonstrate that to be the case. I appeal to Fine Gael not to be carried by the momentum of their crusading marketeers into a position where they are bolstering up the Government. They are in danger of doing this, and their supporters recognise this fact. They have an opportunity to mark off the difference between them and Fianna Fáil.

They are committed to a "yes" vote in the referendum but I think they could support, without being inconsistent, the amendment tabled by Deputy Keating on behalf of the Labour Party. I would ask Deputy Donegan who is present in the House, Deputy Oliver Flanagan who will speak after me and other speakers who may have their own shades of view on these matters, to consider this and to discuss the matter among themselves. This matter is important in relation to the Community and it is important in relation to a matter that does not directly arise here but is implicit in the debate— the question of a credible democratic alternative to the present Government.

Deputy Keating, who is spokesman for our party on this matter, made the Labour Party's basic case against entry on the terms proposed by the Government. Deputy Keating's speech was a moderate, reasonable and thoughtful speech and I hope it will receive as full an answer as possible. It helped to maintain the high level which this debate has reached on the whole.

Those who oppose entry on the Government's terms sometimes are accused of demagogic appeals and so on. It was clear from Deputy Keating's speech and other speeches from these benches that we are not arguing in these terms. We regard it as our duty to the electorate to argue out this case, to hear the arguments on the other side and even to be open to conviction. We think this is a matter that can be discussed rationally, not one on which we should whip up support by emotional catchwords. Of course, that would naturally be a temptation to a party in our position. Some people expect it of us but we have not done that and we are not going to do it.

Basically, Deputy Keating's case was that the Government have minimised the threat, which is a serious one, to our industry after entry, and have over-stated, and encouraged others to over-state, the benefits which would be derived by our agriculture. Certainly there would be benefits in the short run, but the Government have made the long-term prospects look much more rosy than they are. Whatever way the electorate eventually decide on this, it is a service to the electorate that this case should be made and that these criticisms should be levelled. Were it not for this party and the position we have taken up, we would all have been carried away on a certain tide of euphoria which was running through the other two parties some time ago and which has now slackened. I think there is a more reasonable attitude to this matter now than there was.

The key to our position is related to a metaphor used by a member of the British Labour Party shadow Cabinet opposing Britain's entry, not on ideological or absolutist grounds, but on the grounds that he did not think Britain could stand the shock. Speaking of the blast of full Common Market competition, his point was that a cold shower may be bracing and a tonic for a healthy man but if your organism is not in very good shape it could kill you. He was talking about the British economy. The British economy may be a relatively sick economy in comparison with the advanced industrial countries but, compared with our economy, Britain is an Olympic runner. If Britain cannot face that cold shower, are we really so ready for it?

Our Government have presented a sick backward economy, which is what we have, and what they know we have, as a fully developed economy. In the early phases of these negotiations, they were so eager to go in that they minimised all the difficulties. As the Minister for Transport and Power says so often, there was simply no problem; Ireland was ready to stand all kinds of competition in the industrial sphere and in any other sphere. There would not be any redundancies and there would not be any difficulties. That has been toned down a bit, and I am glad it has been toned down. Unfortunately, the damage done in the early stages is still done, and it will last. Because of the initial position taken up by the Government, we are not able to make the realistic pleas we ought to be able to make.

Either in terms of full entry, or association, or a treaty, or whatever relation we have, we still have to make a case. The Government have thrown away a large part of that case by a pretence. They are so given to pretence in home politics that they could not resist falling into it in foreign politics also. The pretence was that we have a fully developed economy and that we are as ready as any other member of the Ten to stand the inter-play of competition inside the market.

Deputy Keating has developed the economic side of that argument. His arguments are on the record in particular in regard to free inflow of goods and the outflow of capital, and the implications of that for an economy like ours. I hope his argument will be answered in the detail in which he made it, and in the reasoned way in which he made it. I hope that very much. I do not intend to attempt to cover—I could not with the same competence—the terrain which Deputy Keating has already covered for us. I want instead to say something about the political and cultural aspects of this matter which are also significant.

First of all as regards the political aspects, our grounds for refusing entry on the Government's terms, and recommending a "No" vote on the referendum, are basically economic. They are basically those set out by Deputy Keating. That is to say, they are not basically ideological. We think that some of those who oppose market entry have painted the character of the existing Community in too frightful terms. We think it is unrealistic and wrong to describe it as a kind of revived new order in the Hitlerian sense. We do not think it is like that. As Deputy Keating said, its character is still somewhat uncertain.

There are things about it which we like. In particular, as long as Herr Willi Brandt is Chancellor in Germany, or as long as his successor maintains the line he maintains, the Community is not likely to be a cold war body, or any kind of war body. It is likely to be an influence for peace and a relaxation of international tensions. We hope that will remain so but, of course, nobody can be sure of that. Deputy Keating here argued for watchfulness in relation to the political tendencies in the Community.

It is also argued, and I think with more force, that the Community stands in what has been described as a neo-colonialist relation to the Third World, the tropical world, the poor world. I think that is true. I think it does. If by neo-colonialist you mean—and I think it is the general sense of the term—that more advanced countries are manipulating the resources, including the human resources, of less developed countries for their own benefit, through price fixing mechanisms and other mechanisms, sometimes including political manipulation, then it is true.

It is true of advanced countries generally. It is true of ourselves, even outside the Community, as long as we acquiesce in the kind of prices, for example, that apply to tropical commodities and in so far as we withhold support from the under-developed countries in their demands for new price fixing mechanisms. Again, while I think the under-developed countries can argue a powerful case on this, I do not think we are so well placed to argue that case, because already we are essentially associated with the European and other relatively advanced countries in our attitudes to these things. I should like to see these attitudes changed.

We have been accused of an insular attitude in refusing Europe, and so on. This is very untrue. No party in this House have more active international contacts, including active international contacts with Western Europe and with the socialist parties in Western Europe, than we have. Also we have refrained very deliberately in our approach to this whole Common Market question from adopting a xenophobic green jingle attitude, a down-with-the-foreginer attitude, which might appeal to some as the quickest and easiest way of getting votes. I do not think it actually is, because I think our people have more sense than many people credit them with and they react against that kind of appeal.

Whether they react in favour or against, we have not done it and we are not going to do it. We are an internationalist party with an internationalist ideology. Our reasons for voting against this proposition have nothing to do with isolationism. They have to do with what the people of this country can stand, and what will benefit them and what will not benefit them. We may be wrong in our assessment of this, or the Government may be wrong. The people have a right to hear the debate and make up their own minds.

I should like to say something now about the question of sovereignty. This is a somewhat elusive problem because it operates on several planes. It is a legal question: are we at present legally a sovereign nation? I do not know whether we are or not. The Constitution declares that we are; at the same time when we entered the United Nations we took a decision which I think a court could well hold already to be an abrogation of sovereignty. There are only five members of the UN which I think can properly be described as fully sovereign and those are the five permanent members of the Security Council who do not have to be bound by any decision that they do not want. But if the Security Council agree a decision can be taken which is binding on all members—and indeed non-members—whether they like it or not. When we agreed to that the word "sovereign" in our Constitution took on a different tinge and meaning from what it had before. It could well be argued that if a referendum is necessary now a referendum was also necessary then. There is, of course, the converse of that also. In reality and descending from the legal enpyrean where sovereignty is, of course, deemed to be an absolute—in this case a confusingly qualified absolute—I think we find that sovereignty is in part a question of the degree of sovereignty one has. Nobody has absolute sovereignty. Even the United States, the most powerful country in the world, when it tried to push its concept of absolute power, found itself in very great difficulty and is now retreating within itself as a result of the difficulties it encountered in the real world as distinct from the world of abstract entities such as sovereignty.

But it is a matter of material possibilities and also of a psychological attitude of mind towards those material possiblities. In our position, for example, we are and will always remain presumably next door to a larger, richer and more powerful country which has always within historical memory been larger, richer and more powerful and presumably will contiue to be so for as long as we, our children and grandchildren are alive. That carries certain relations including psychological relations. We, in our concept of sovereignty and the assertion of it, are inclined to go from one extreme to another and confuse ourselves and others. I think that damage is done here, to our young people in particular, by the attitude of the Government party to this matter. For a long time they almost idolised their relation to the concept of national sovereignty enshrined in our Constitution—a shrine which will shortly be pillaged. This was an almost idolatrous relation. Now they are taking quite a casual attitude to sovereignty —it does not really matter; it is something you have and may give away or may not, but do not talk about it.

We have made this point before: I think this is dangerous. Both the extreme stress on sovereignty before and the casual willingness to relinquish it now are damaging because they concur with many other instances to give people the feeling that they are not being dealt with seriously by democratic politicians. That has very dangerous implications at present when there is a tendency for people to abandon democracy. If they do abandon it they are likely to find something a great deal worse. In short, I would say that this attitude to sovereignty implied by this party, the party of national sovereignty par excellance, putting forward this proposition ditching sovereignty in a cryptic way, begets cynicism.

Also, the real degree of "sovereignty"—that is control over our own affairs—that we shall have will depend in part on material circumstances and in part on how we handle ourselves. If in entering—supposing we are allowed to enter, which may or may not be the case—we present ourselves as a doormat acquiescing in advance to anything that comes to us, we shall be treated precisely in that way whereas if we are a little more difficult within the limits of diplomacy we shall have that much more elbow room.

That relates very closely and immediately to another question, the question of neutrality. Here, I think the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Hillery—I am not disposed to nag at him; I have a good deal of respect for him—has made some rather large mistakes and one of the biggest of these was his voluntary undertaking on our preparedness to enter into military commitments. Nobody asked us to enter into military commitments and nobody in the Europe of the Six is talking about military commitments. There was no need to say this in public; it may not have done much harm in military terms because I think people did not take it that seriously but I think it did harm in another way. It advertised the fact—I think it is a fact—that this Government were and are willing to accept any terms whatever in order to get into the Common Market.

Hear, hear.

That was done very early on. I think it is a classic case of the bad, because somewhat abject, negotiating position and prejudiced the whole subsequent course of the negotiations. Not only that, but it will cast a shadow over our position in the EEC, assuming we go in. We shall tend to be treated as a rather negligible people, not only because of our marginal position geographically and economically but also because of our advertised willingness to make any concession. It was believed by many in Europe that sovereignty and neutrality would be matters about which Ireland would rightly be sticking. Instead, we showed extreme smoothness on both matters and while smoothness may be an attractive attribute in daily social life as the beginning of a negotiating position it is not very good. Assuming that it was, as it obviously is, Government policy to enter the Community, the Minister's emphasis should have been the quite different one: we do not intend to join NATO; we are not entering military commitments; that is out. But we did not want to say anything was out. We did not even have to say that publicly. I think this was one of the worst aspects of this matter.

I would like to say something about the cultural aspect. Some of the critics of Ireland's entry to the Common Market are taking the line that entry would destroy our national culture, specifically, that it would kill the Irish language. I do not think that Brussels will kill the Irish language any faster than Dublin is killing it under this Government. This argument is not real because, either in or out of the Common Market what becomes of our national culture in all its aspects, of which the Irish language is one, depends on us. It does not depend on Brussels now or at any other time. Brussels will not kill the Irish language but it will not save it either. One of the many forms of "hat" that is being produced on various sides in relation to the Common Market question is the story that entry will in some way save the Irish language, restore our national soul and do other things that would cause only perplexity to the bureaucrats in Brussels who are not interested in saving our national soul and who are too interested in other matters such as becoming rich. For example, last Monday's Irish Times, and other papers too, carried a statement made by the Taoiseach in Cork City Hall. This statement is an elaborate contribution to the copious flow of codology we have been having from that quarter on the subject of the Irish language and on other aspects of national culture. I quote from The Irish Times for that day:

It is my strong opinion that the greatest injection of hope which can be given to the language revival movement will be the loosening of our ties with the world of English and the strengthening of our link with Europe. The Irish language has been weakened mainly because of Britain's position between us and Europe....

Apparently when we enter Europe Britain will no longer be between us and Europe. The quotation continues:

....and by the influence of English culture. With God's help, and with the renewal of our bonds with Europe, Irish will blossom and prosper.

This is the kind of thing that discourages people, particularly young people, because they get the impression that they are being talked down to by people who do not mean what they say. Nobody could possibly accept the idea that our entry to the Common Market will save the Irish language. It is our own interest in the Irish language, if we have any, and only that that will save it. Apparently, the Taoiseach thinks that even that will be stimulated by our entry. He says, as reported in the edition of The Irish Times to which I have referred:

Even today Irishmen who spend their holiday on the Continent feel, perhaps for the first time, an urge to use whatever Irish they may have. This happens because the Irishman wants to highlight his national identity and to show that he is not some strange sort of Englishman.

I think an Irishman, having taken his holidays on the Continent, who bursts suddenly into Irish while talking to some Frenchman or German will confirm the impression that he is an even stranger sort of Englishman than the foreigner thought him to be in the first instance.

Some of the older Members of the House may remember that rather naive old revivalist, Lord Ashbourne, who used wear a kilt. It is said that in the early days of the revival he returned on one occasion from one of these tours of the Continent of which the Taoiseach spoke. Speaking very much of this kind of situation, this gentleman said he was very pleased at having carried a certain message to the Continent. He told the following story: "As I walked down the Champs Élysees I met the President of the Republic and he said, ` Mon chér, Lord Ashbourne, comment allez vous?' and I replied, `Go maith, a Uachtaráin' and that made everything clear.” I think that was an amiable form of codology. We could hear less about this matter. It takes from the seriousness of the debate. I hope we can kill it off both ways. Our culture depends on ourselves. Here I am in agreement with the words of Sinn Féin though not in agreement with the policy of the very modern party of that name. We will not be thrown a rope from outside that will save us. We must make the effort ourselves.

Of course, the question of alternatives is a difficult one—one which Deputy Keating developed. The ideas and nature of the difficulty, particularly for people opposing something that has been negotiated, is the impossibility of presenting something else in its place that has been negotiated, since only one thing has been negotiated. The idea of association has been mooted. I agree with Deputy Keating that it seems to have been treated too dismissively. If it had been treated less dismissively at the beginning and if it had been treated as a possibility it could have been a resource for negotiating better terms of entry than we got even if association had not worked out.

I can understand the idea in particular which is the main argument against association, the idea that a seat on the Council of Ministers is a valuable property and a negotiating lever. That contains some force. However, the trouble is that a position of negotiating leverage is valid only if you are in a position to move the lever and our hands were weakened very much in relation to the use of any lever by the initial governmental approach to which I have referred. There were resources open to the Government which could have been of value but which they have not applied. If in approaching this matter, instead of saying that we were a fully developed country ready to assume any burden and ready to compete with West Germany or any other country, they had acknowledged our underdeveloped position in European terms, they could have said: "We want to enter but we cannot face the prospect of what the future obligations of membership would mean to a weak, peripheral economy like ours unless pari passu with our accepting those responsibilities, the Community develop a regional policy which can compensate adequately a country like ours in this unique weak position for the special and deleterious effects which would be among the effects of entry, en passant.” They did not do that. I have no evidence that they even considered it. I presume they will dismiss it as people dismiss any idea they have not pursued but in the event of a re-negotiation of this question and a process of continuing negotiation, that is going to be necessary here, whether in or out, a matter like that would come up.

I am inclined to think that the differences between an entry situation and an out situation tend to be exaggerated both by proponents and exponents on this question. I have been struck by the fact that of the approximately four million migratory labourers in the Common Market countries, approximately two million come from within the existing Six and another two million come from outside. To the Moroccan labourer or the south Italian labourer in Dusseldorf it does not much matter whether his country is supposed to be in the market and sharing these benefits or whether it is outside and sheltered from this competition. In either case, in one sense he feels the blast and in another sense he feels the pull, because, of course, he is there because the conditions in his homeland are even worse than the conditions of a migratory labourer inside the market. Therefore, I think there is some exaggeration there in both directions.

I should also like to refer to the question of Partition briefly here. This is another rather bogus issue. Like the contention that entry to the Market will rescue, in some mysterious way the Irish language, it would also end Partition in some way that is equally mysterious. Again, one would think that Britain would have disappeared. In both cases we are in some trick-of-the-loop manner supporting the really serious question of our relations with Britain by making it seem to disappear when we enter the Common Market. It does not disappear; it is still very much there.

Then, of course, the main reason, never plainly stated, why this Government proposed to take us into the Market is that Britain is going in and that we are so tied to Britain that they do not see any way of our staying out once Britain goes in. That is the fact and it is dressed up with these nice green ribbons about solving Partition and rescuing the Irish language. Both of these ideas would be dropped by this Government and dropped very fast if, as a result of development in either France or Britain, Britain itself stayed out.

As regards the arguments about solving Partition by entry into the Market, one signature to the Accession Treaty is that of the Taoiseach, Deputy Jack Lynch on behalf of the President of Ireland—an Ireland which claims under Article 3 jurisdiction over this whole island—and another signature together with that signature on the same paper is that of Mr. Ted Heath, signing on behalf of Her Majesty the Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I think it would be false to say that Common Market entry makes the problem any worse, but equally false to say that it makes it any better or does something to solve it. It does not.

Again, with the Irish language, the problem is not a line on a map drawn by somebody else. The problem is the division between two groups, two communities of the Irish people, a chasm which has been widened month after month here by, among other things, the words, acts and omissions, in particular the omissions, of the Government. Brussels will not solve that any more than it will give the kiss of life to the Irish language.

We must try to kill off the illusions which are being allowed to encumber this. We have been living with illusions too long. The illusions of themselves are dangerous and the process of shedding the illusions by people who have really cherished them is more dangerous still psychologically and politically, and I fear for the effects of that in the time to come.

I believe this party, and particularly our spokesman on this issue, Deputy Keating, have rendered a genuine national service by bringing rational, informed criticism to bear on this matter and not allowing it to degenerate into an exchange of catchcries. I should like again to ask our friends in the Fine Gael Party to have a good look at the proposition before the House in the name of Deputy Keating and the Labour Party and inquire among themselves whether there is any reason why they should not support the proposition.

In this debate I should like, first of all, to talk about the opportunities which membership of the Communities will afford to us for the rapid economic growth which we need if we are to achieve the main goals of our economic policy, that is, full employment and an improved standard of living for all our people. We are a small country. We depend on exports to expand our employment and to improve our standard of living. A favourable export climate, that is a favourable climate externally for exports is, therefore, vital as far as we are concerned if we are to continue to have economic growth, and in considering any economic arrangement such as entry to the European Community, the criterion must be whether it best fulfils the basic conditions for balanced economic growth. By this criterion, the terms of accession which we have negotiated could not be bettered by any other arrangement which we could realistically hope to conclude.

What are those conditions and how will entry to the Community meet them? As a first condition we need favourable arrangements for agriculture which is our major industry. Ever since the end of the fifties our growth has been hindered by the unfavourable situation on foreign markets for our agricultural exports. Hitherto the cheap food policy of successive British Governments and the high guaranteed prices given to their own producers meant that we were able to sell only limited quantities and at depressed prices, and more recently we have been all but excluded from the EEC markets by reason of the levies imposed on imports under the common agricultural policy of the Community.

Entry to the Community would change all this. It offers an opportunity to expand agricultural production without having to worry about access to markets or about low and unstable prices. Farmers would be able to rely on the Community's fixed common prices for the main agricultural commodities which in this country they produce and export. They can count on selling as much as they can produce of these products at prices which are much higher than those which they have been getting. Cattle and milk count for more than 60 per cent of our agricultural output. For these two commodities prices in the EEC are at least 50 per cent above the prices received by Irish producers last year.

These figures show clearly the stimulus to production that will be given by the steady increase in prices during and after the transitional period. The best assessment that can be made of the magnitude of the response of agricultural producers was given in the White Paper. The estimate made indicates that, on the basis of prices and costs obtaining in the EEC in 1970-71, the volume of gross agricultural output will increase by about one-third and its value by 75 per cent. This assessment may well be conservative. Projections by other bodies and individuals point to the possibility of even greater expansion. The White Paper assessment, again on the basis of 1970-71 EEC prices, is that family farm income will be double its 1970 level and, with the further price rises that are certain in the Community, the actual increase in income will be considerably greater.

Growth of this order in agriculture will be a dramatic change from our experience over the past 20 years. It will make a substantial direct contribution to the faster economic growth we want to achieve and it will be a stimulus to industry and services because of the greatly increased spending power of farmers.

The second basic condition for growth is that it must be export led and, consequently, we must have favourable terms of access to foreign markets for our goods. The first thing to remember here is that Britain and Northern Ireland are going in. This is now virtually certain. I do not think I need to remind any Member of this House of the high proportion of our exports, especially our agricultural exports, which goes to these markets. We all know that it is so high that any restriction on our freedom of entry into these areas would be nothing short of disastrous.

However, while our agricultural exports will continue to be our major money spinners for some time to come, we would be very unwise to ignore the structural changes that have occurred in our economy since the 1950s and particularly during the 1960s and the extent to which future growth will depend on industrial exports. These industrial goods will have to be sold on world markets. We will not get favourable terms of access to these markets unless we open up our own market to competition. It is true that we were able to achieve a remarkable expansion of industrial exports over the past 12 years while still retaining a substantial measure of protection. This expansion was from a very small base and exports represented a relatively small proportion of our total industrial output. We must greatly increase the proportion of our industrial output which will be exported if we are to meet the needs of the changing structure of our economy. It has been changed for us and membership of the EEC, in my opinion, gives us an unrivalled opportunity of achieving this.

For the 1,100 Irish manufacturing firms which are already doing a significant export business, the elimination of tariffs on exports to the Community and to the EFTA countries, which will certainly have a free trade arrangement with the Community for industrial goods, will give free entry to a very substantial market of wealthy consumers. Many of these firms are already, it is true, overcoming the common external tariff and selling within the Community. This very fact has been seized on by some opponents to our membership who advance the argument that, because these firms are already doing well within the countries of the Community, or some of them, nothing will be lost. They attribute this success to the fact that the average tariff is only 7½ per cent and they say that the removal of tariffs will not really provide much of a stimulus to increased exports to the countries of the Six. I would suggest that this view is both superficial and incorrect. First, many of the tariffs on the main industrial exports from this country are substantially above 7 per cent. Some of them are above 20 per cent. Secondly, even with low tariffs, there can be a substantial degree of effective protection, depending on the value-added content of the selling price. If our exporters have been successful in overcoming the existing common external tariff, how much more successful will they be if they do not have this obstacle to overcome? They have been doing things the hard way. I do not know why people should argue that they should do things the hard way in future and that they should be deprived of the opportunity of doing things the easier way.

Another basic condition for our economic development is the need for balanced growth to exploit fully the potential of all regions of the country. We are, I think, all conscious of the importance of new industry for the achievement of this aim. I am sure most people will agree that membership of the Community will provide at least a great stimulus for the attraction of new industry here.

Our tariff-free access under the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement has operated successfully to attract industry here. Our tariff-free access to the expanded Community market will be a very powerful inducement, indeed, especially to industrialists who are located outside the enlarged Community and who will be anxious to get inside the Community's tariff barrier. It is being suggested, of course, that firms will not be anxious to go outside the central industrial area of the Community, or the Golden Triangle, as it has been called. This was one of the main planks of Deputy Keating's opposition to full membership. He claimed that the abolition of control on the movement of capital would accentuate a process—I am, I think, quoting him correctly—which he said did us the most ferocious damage in the past and is still doing us the most ferocious damage. He began his dissertation by harking back to the experience of the last century. This is, I suggest, a fallacious comparison. In the last century all the capital that existed in Ireland was essentially in the hands of a foreign ascendancy who naturally looked to Britain for investment opportunities, all the more so as the investment opportunities in this country were few. In addition to that, at that time there was no acceptance of Government responsibility either for general economic growth or the general well-being of the economy. In particular there was no acceptance of responsibility for its regional distribution.

I suggest that the picture today is completely altered. There is a substantial amount of capital now in Irish hands. Considerable opportunities exist for investment in Ireland. One of the central responsibilities of Government today, is to pursue positive policies of economic growth and to ensure that the implementation of these policies will bring about the elimination or at least the reduction of regional disparities.

The effects of this change in our circumstances since the last century are shown very clearly by our experience over the last decade or so. While during that period we have had free movement of capital between this country and Britain and, indeed, between this country and the other members of the sterling area, the inflow of capital to this country has greatly exceeded the outflow.

I would ask why should entry to the Community turn back the clock? The aim of the Community is the harmonious development of all of its regions and it has policies and instruments which are specifically designed to ensure that resources are available for regional development.

The main purpose of the European Investment Bank is to make capital available for the development of the less favoured regions. In fact, 75 per cent of the loans issued by the bank have been for projects of regional development, mostly in southern Italy. The European Social Fund is also oriented towards regional development through the grant of assistance to the remedying of employing problems in underdeveloped regions, regions where unemployment is high or where important local industries are in decline. The Agricultural Fund provides financial assistance for projects of structural reform in agriculture, including the creation of industrial employment in backward regions.

The Community's evolving regional policy with the recent agreement to limit state aids in central regions, more or less in this golden triangle to which I have referred, to a fixed upper limit, is intended to influence industrial location decisions in favour of the less developed regions. Industrial incentives are, of course, of paramount importance to the attraction of new industries. One of the primary aims in our negotiations was to ensure our continued ability to offer an effective system of industrial incentives after we had acceded to the Community and we have achieved this aim.

Under the Treaty of Rome the Commission is required to carry out a continuing examination of the aids which are made available by the Member States, and if it finds that some particular aid is not compatible with the Common Market it can require a Member State to abolish that particular aid. After our accession our industrial incentives will be examined by the Commission. We have, however, succeeded in obtaining assurances on the conduct of this examination from the Community during negotiations. Under the Treaty State aids may be regarded as being compatible with the Common Market if they are intended to promote the development of regions where the standard of living is low, by Community standards, or where there is serious under-employment. The Protocol to the Treaty of Accession agreed during our negotiations takes formal note of the fact that we are engaged in a policy of development which is designed to align standards of living here with those in other European countries and to eliminate under-employment and it recognises that when the Commission comes to examine our State aids, our various incentives, it will be necessary for the Commission to take into account our objectives of economic expansion and higher living standards. In other words, we have obtained Community recognition, in advance of the Commission's examination, that there is a compelling case for the retention of an effective system of aids in this country. There can be no question, therefore, that the Commission's examination could lead it to require modifications of our aids which would reduce their effectiveness. No other applicant has received this assurance. It was, in my opinion, a major achievement on the part of our negotiations to obtain it.

The Commission's examination of our incentives will, of course, cover our scheme of export tax reliefs. We succeeded in the negotiations in ensuring that we will be able to continue these reliefs in operation. Firms which now benefit from the reliefs, firms which begin to export before the date of completion of the Commission's examinations and firms with which commitments have been entered into at the date of the conclusion of the Commission's examination, will benefit from the reliefs for the full period of their entitlement under existing legislation. If modifications have to be made in our scheme of reliefs following the Commission's examination, the revised incentive scheme will be equally effective in promoting industrial development and any modifications to the scheme of reliefs will be subject to appropriate delays and transitional procedures.

This is a highly satisfactory outcome. To appreciate its full worth it should be seen in the context of the measures which the Community is taking to co-ordinate the incentives offered in the member states. The main aim of these measures is to put an end to wasteful counter-bidding for new industries between member states and to increase the effectiveness of the aids available in the less developed regions of the Community. A ceiling has been placed to the cumulative value of the aids which a firm located in the more highly developed regions may receive. I think, from recollection, the figure fixed is 20 per cent. This arrangement will improve the prospect of attracting firms to the less developed regions such as this country. A system for the co-ordination of aids in the less developed regions is to be worked out in due course, and we will be involved directly in this work.

The Community's philosophy on these kinds of aid is that their level should be related to the severity of the economic and social problems which they are designed to solve. Since Ireland is relatively under-developed by Community standards, we have everything to gain from the application of a system for the co-ordination of aids based on this philosophy. If the Community were not already moving to co-ordinate aids we could well be pressing them in that direction in order that our development efforts would not be frustrated by the ability of wealthier states to outbid us in attracting industry. In our development efforts we will be assisted by the Community. As I have stated already, the Community possesses important mechanisms which can assist in regional development, such mechanisms as the European Investment Bank and the European Social Fund. As a member of the Community, we will be entitled to draw on these sources and here again, the Protocol will be of value to us. The Protocol states that the Community institutions should assist us in every way possible to attain the objectives of our development policy, particularly by making adequate use of the Community resources. Again, none of the other applicants obtained this undertaking. The only other country which was ever given a similarly favoured position is Italy, and the value of this advantage to Italy is, I think, quite clear to most people by now. Italy has received well over one-half of the total loans made to member states by the European Investment Bank. We should benefit proportionately.

In order to obtain maximum benefit from Community funds for development, we will need to present wellthought out proposals to the Community institutions soon after our accession. We will be able to do this. The reports of the regional development organisations have all been received by the Minister for Local Government. The preparation of the regional industrial plans by the IDA is very well advanced. The Government will have decided their future regional policy in good time to enable us to present proposals for regional development to Community institutions shortly after our accession. It is also possible that participation in other projects not of a specifically regional character would interest Community institutions. We intend to discuss such questions with these institutions prior to our accession. Although the Community has come a considerable distance in the field of regional policy, it is quite true that much remains to be done. The Council has recognised this and proposals for the strengthening of the Community's regional policy have been put forward by the Commission. The agreement by the Member States to the adoption of the co-ordination system for aids in the central regions of the Community is, I think, an indication of their growing acceptance of the need for a strengthened Community approach to regional problems and further developments in this can be expected in the near future.

During the course of our negotiations with the Community we stressed the necessity to develop Community regional policy if a lasting and meaningful economic and monetary union is to be created in the Community. I repeated this view at the meeting in Brussels, on the 7th of this month, of the Finance Ministers of the Community and the applicant countries. None of the other States is opposed to the development of Community regional policy and it will undoubtedly come about. Some countries give it a lower priority than we do, of course, and this is understandable, since there are many ways in which the Community, which is still young, could be strengthened. But there are strong influences within the Community with views similar to ours and once Ireland is a member we will not be alone in favouring the continued development of Community regional policy. I would hope that our experience of the last 50 years in tackling—and with considerable success, I may say—the deepseated regional and structural problems of our economy will enable us to contribute creatively to the evolution of the Community's regional policy. We are going into Europe to give as well as to receive.

I hope it is clear from what I have been saying that membership of the Community will create the conditions necessary for balanced economic growth of this country. In the White Paper the Government gave an assessment of the rate of growth we could achieve if we entered the enlarged Community. If this assessment turns out to be wrong it will be because there is considerable reason for optimism that we can do better. However, this largely depends on our own efforts.

To achieve the benefits of membership we must have the self-discipline which is necessary for competitiveness and this, of course, involves an incomes policy which is compatible with competitiveness and it requires a steep reduction in the rate of inflation and minimum cost production.

I think that there is a more realistic note, as has been said by some previous speakers, creeping into this debate on the EEC and I would hope to contribute a little to that by reiterating that although we see very considerable possibilities and potential for our economy and various sectors of our economy in membership of the EEC, there is nothing in the Treaty of Rome or in any part of the institutions of the Community which will of itself make life easier for us in this country. Ultimately, the results to be achieved depend on ourselves. The conditions and the economic climate, which are created within the Community, as I have been trying to outline them, are the right conditions and the right economic climate for this country to succeed both on the agricultural side and on the industrial side, to enable it to achieve considerable growth in industrial exports and the establishment of industry here from abroad, but they are the conditions; that is the economic climate. The ultimate result, of course, depends on us as a people, our own efforts and our own discipline.

Some fears have been expressed that participation in an economic and monetary union within the Community would mean that we would lose the power to shape our economic policies to meet our needs and that we would have to operate within the Community policies tailored to the requirements of the more developed and industrialised regions of the Community. These fears will be seen to be unreal if we examine the background to the Community's decision to move towards economic and monetary union, and if we look at the objectives of such a union and what it involves in practice.

The Community's decision is based on Article 2 of the Treaty of Rome which assigns to the Community the task of "promoting throughout the Community a harmonious development of economic activities, a continuous and balanced expansion, an increase in stability, an accelerated raising of the standard of living and closer relations between the member states belonging to it." The Community's decision of March, 1971, to proceed towards an economic and monetary union re-echoes this objective when it declares that the purpose of such a union is to ensure satisfactory growth, full employment and stability within the Community, and to remedy structural and regional disequilibria.

The operation of the Community made this decision necessary. The establishment of a customs union and the common agricultural policy, the free movement of labour and capital, and the development of a common trade policy towards the rest of the world, brought out a high degree of integration and inter-dependence of the economies of the member states. This integration and inter-dependence reduced the effectiveness of action taken by individual member states to rectify economic problems within their respective boundaries. Moreover, the freedom of action for individual member states to resort to changes in exchange parities in order to correct economic disequilibria became more circumscribed, since any such change could jeopardise the existence of the common agricultural policy which is based on a common price system expressed in a unit of account of fixed value. Therefore, not only is it vulnerable to a change of parity rates by member states but it lies exposed to the vicissitudes of the international monetary situation. The instability which is apparently endemic in international monetary affairs—at least in recent years—is well known to everyone. The Community, as an economic entity, found themselves unable to cope with this in a satisfactory manner.

The eventual economic and monetary union, as envisaged in the Community's decision, will involve the taking of decision at Community level on the member states' short and medium-term economic policies, a unified monetary area operating fixed currency parities and a common monetary policy, in addition to a common policy to deal with regional and structural problems, free capital movements and fiscal harmonisation. The measures to be taken towards the achievement of economic and monetary union were laid down only for the first stage which runs from 1971 to 1973. Progress in the implementation of these first stage measures was interrupted by the international monetary crises of 1971, but the Community reached an agreement this month on the following measures. First, the establishment of a group of Ministers' representatives to reinforce the co-ordination of short-term economic policy; secondly, the establishment of a regional development fund, or other appropriate system, to promote regional development and the use of the Agricultural Fund for the development of priority agricultural areas; thirdly, the narrowing of the fluctuation margins of member states' currencies.

We must accept that there is a need for closer economic and monetary integration if the development of the Community as a whole and its component parts is to proceed and if the achievements to date, and in particular the common agricultural policy, are not to be endangered. Far from looking on this development as something to be viewed with apprehension we should see it as ensuring a favourable environment for our economic development.

Our economy is an open one and we are mainly dependent on foreign trade for economic growth and for raising our living standards. Too often in the past action taken by our main trading partners has proved to be a brake on the expansion of our exports and, consequently, on the expansion of output and employment. Successive Irish Governments have been made acutely aware of the effects on our economy of the external economic and trading environment and they have been made aware of the fact that they have had no control whatever over that external environment.

It is on this point that the importance of our participation in the economic and monetary union of the Community lies. Within such a union the management of the economies of the member states will be co-ordinated at Community level so that all can move forward together on the basis of mutually consistent policies. Thus, not only can we look forward to trading in a more stable and growing market, we will also have a voice in the directing of that market and in the reconciling of our external economic environment with our own needs.

Some people will argue that the taking of important economic decisions of Community level will involve a diminution in our economic sovereignty. I suggest this is a superficial view. To forego the power to take decisions, which are at all times subject to the constraints imposed by our external environment, in return for an effective voice in the shaping of that environment, cannot be regarded as a loss of sovereignty.

In accepting economic and monetary union as a Community goal, the Government are fully conscious of the special development needs of the Irish economy as a whole and of regional development problems in particular. These must be taken into account in progress towards union. During the negotiations our special economic circumstances have been brought to the notice of the Community and the Community recognition of our special circumstances has been enshrined in the Protocol to the Treaty of Accession. We have also availed of the consultations we have had with the Community on their recent decision in regard to action to achieve the first stage towards economic and monetary union, to stress the very great importance we attach to the development of a comprehensive and coherent regional policy for the Community.

When we are a member of the Community this will be a priority concern of the Government, and the Community is under no illusions about this. It has been made quite clear to them in our negotiations and since. As recently as at a meeting earlier this month, which I attended, I personally made it clear again that we regarded this as a top priority and, in fact, that we could not and would not accept the achievement of full economic and monetary union, unless prior to that we had achieved or had set up in such a way that we were satisfied we would shortly achieve, sufficiently comprehensive regional development policies to ensure that the standard of living of our people would approximate to the standard of living of those in the centre of the Community. For us this is a sine qua non. Of course the achievement of the final stages of economic and monetary union are dependent on the unanimous vote of the members of the Community.

The Community plan for economic and monetary union includes measures for the harmonisation of indirect taxation and certain aspects of company taxes. It is intended that in the first stage of the plan, that is before the end of 1973, measures will be adopted for the harmonisation of the structures of the value-added tax and excise duties. The harmonisation of the rates of those taxes will be taken up at the later stages.

As regards our adoption of the value-added tax system, as Deputies will recall, a Bill providing for that tax has passed the Second Stage in this House and the Committee Stage will be taken at the earliest convenient opportunity. The value-added tax which we propose to introduce will replace the existing turnover and wholesale taxes. It is on the EEC model. Since it was fully described in my speech opening the Second Stage debate on that Bill, I do not propose to go into it in further detail at this point. However, I might mention that there will be a transitional period of one year during which we may make modifications in our value-added tax should they be found necessary to bring it fully into line with the EEC form of value-added tax.

As I have said, the question of the harmonisation of the rates as distinct from the structure of the value-added tax and excise duties will not come up until some time after our accession when, of course, we will have a voice in determining the level of the harmonised rates. As Deputies are aware, the rates of the main excise duties in general are much higher here than in the present member states of the Community. If the harmonised rates were to reflect the existing level within the Community there would be a substantial loss of revenue from our excise duties. However, the enlargement of the Community will create an entirely new situation in this regard because the other three new members have higher rates of excise duties. I might also add in this connection that any decision on the harmonisation would require an unanimous vote under the Treaty provisions.

There is another matter which is of direct concern to me as Minister for Finance, that is the arrangements agreed in the negotiations for our contributions towards the financing of the Community. These arrangements are described in detail in the White Paper and I do not propose to go over that ground again. The transitional arrangements for our contributions to the Community budget are particularly favourable to us. They allow us a period for the gradual phasing in of the Community's own resources system while we will be able to benefit fully from the start of accession from the Community expenditure, particularly in relation to the common agricultural policy.

The substantial Exchequer savings which will result from our participation in the common agricultural policy will give us greater scope for financing further economic and social development. A priority claim on these Exchequer savings will be the improvement of social welfare benefits to compensate the less well-off sections for any increase in food prices arising from membership.

A number of the critics of Government policy in relation to the EEC base their case on the claim that the essential interests of this country could be adequately safeguarded without full membership of the European Communities. Sometimes this claim seems to be based on a blind and irrational hostility to the EEC and, on other occasions, it reflects a remarkable and dangerous illusion about the trading terms which the Community would be prepared to give to us as a non-member.

In the first place I should like to try to dispel any ideas that may be prevalent that we can simply ignore the EEC and continue as we are. This is something which is basic but which, in my opinion, is not well enough known. We have not got the choice of going in or staying as we are. That option is simply not open to us. We either go in or we take another course. The option of staying as we are is not open because Britain and the Six Counties are going in.

Most opponents of membership now recognise that we must come to some arrangement with the enlarged Community unless, of course, we are to suffer a disastrous decline in living standards. Some of the more extreme anti-EEC propaganda seems to portray the Community as a "capitalist plot" designed to destroy the Irish nation and argues, therefore, that we should have nothing whatever to do with it. Not only is this assertion completely untrue but it ignores the plain and irrefutable facts of our trading position vis-á-vis the Community.

About 80 per cent of all our exports go to the countries of the enlarged Community. Therefore, we must take a very keen interest in what happens in this large market. We must take steps to ensure that our vital interests are not only safeguarded but developed further. To do nothing in the context of the Community's enlargement would mean that we would lose our present free access to the British market and fail to secure better markets in the rest of the Community. I do not know how anyone can really claim that this would be good for Ireland. We must export if we are to live and any action or inaction which damages our ability to export would be disastrous for this nation and would represent the height of irresponsibility.

We must, therefore, reach some agreement with the enlarged Community. The real question at issue is whether membership represents the best way of doing this or whether some other trading arrangement would enable us better to develop our potential to provide an acceptable standard of living for all of our people.

In considering such a relationship it is not sufficient, as some people seem to have done, to draw up a list of all the things which we would like to have and then to say this represents an alternative to membership. A more realistic approach than that is necessary. We must consider what the Community would be likely to give to us and what we, on our part, would have to give in return; what the effects on the economy would be and how this would compare with our likely position as members of the EEC. These are also factors that must be taken into account.

If we examine the kind of relationships which the EEC has with non-member countries we find they have not negotiated any agreement that would be likely to offer any worthwhile benefits to us. Critics of membership have quoted as examples to us various trade agreements between the EEC and other countries but they have very conveniently failed to mention that none of these agreements contains any significant concessions for agricultural products which are of major interest to this country. Even where products such as beef are covered, as in the case of the Argentine or Yugoslavia, the terms provide for a limited reduction of import levies but not of the heavy customs duties of about 20 per cent. There is no reason to suppose that there would be any significantly better terms available to us. It is most unlikely that there would be any concessions at all for our dairy products and thus not only would we fail to improve our present terms of access to continental countries but we would lose the advantages we now enjoy in the British market.

In this context a favourite argument of the opponents of membership is that because of our trading relations with Britain, special arrangements would be made for our agricultural trade with that country, by analogy, in some way, with those agreed for certain New Zealand products. I should like to make it quite clear that we would not regard the New Zealand terms as being at all satisfactory for our circumstances. They are of limited duration, uncertain future and provide a return to producers far below that which is obtainable under the common agricultural policy. But, apart from this, we would in effect have to rely on Britain to secure special terms for us. I am amazed at some of the people who put forward this argument because at the same time they talk about staying out of the EEC to retain our independence. But this kind of operation, in which effectively we are relying on the British to secure terms for us which are not as good as we can get ourselves by full membership, is simply increasing our dependence on Britain and for me, personally, one of the strongest reasons for wishing to enter the EEC is to bring about a situation in which we can have genuine economic independence from Britain, the kind of independence that is available to other countries but not to us because of the enormous amount of our trade with Britain.

As I said, to follow that line would simply increase our dependence on Britain whereas full membership, as proposed, will have the reverse effect. It will diversify our markets and give us a say in determining the conditions which will be applicable to a large part of our external trade. While we are Britain's third largest customer, trade with us represents only a very small portion of her total trade and it would be very unwise for anybody to place much reliance on this factor in encouraging Britain to look after our interests in Europe. I am being as objective and restrained as I can be when I refer to that proposal.

It is likely that the EEC would be quite prepared to negotiate with us an agreement for free trade in industrial goods on the lines of the current negotiations with the EFTA countries which are not seeking membership. Indeed, many of the critics of the Government in this matter have suggested that if countries such as Sweden and Switzerland can negotiate a free trade agreement like that, why should not we be able to do so. The simple answer is that such an arrangement would not be suitable in our conditions. These countries are mainly concerned with industrial exports. Therefore, they can afford to enter into an agreement which has a very small agricultural content or none at all, but in our case agriculture provides almost half of our exports as compared with about 5 per cent for the countries I have mentioned. An agreement which did not cater adequately for agricultural exports would be useless for us. Such an agreement would leave us open to the loss of protection which is inherent in industrial free trade but without the counter-balancing advantages of Community aid for development and remunerative outlets for agriculture. Those who advocate an EFTA-style trade agreement seem to ignore this major snag. It is futile to argue that the EEC might grant us considerable and substantial concessions on agriculture. The fact is they have not done so in any other case and they show no disposition to do so in the future. They do not owe us a living.

Some critics see in a limited preferential agreement a solution to our problems vis-á-vis the EEC. This, they claim, would enable us to retain some protection for the home market and an improvement in terms of access to the EEC for some exports. To say the least, it is doubtful if we could get such an agreement because the Community has hitherto confined this type of agreement to Mediterranean countries as part of its policy for that region. Even if an agreement of this sort were forthcoming, the benefits would be small but the disadvantages would be large.

On the industrial side, in return for partial protection we would have only partial access to the Continent and we would lose our present free access to the British market. Our share of the British market would be eroded because other EEC members would have free access to that market and would be in a more advantageous position. The consequences for the thousands of jobs that depend on exports to Britain would be very serious. This is an aspect that the anti-EEC membership lobby never seem to mention. They clamour about the loss of jobs arising from the removal of protection but they ignore the losses of jobs that would arise from protection against our exports to other markets. That is, they ignore the raising of new barriers to our exports to Britain which is inherent in any other arrangement. On the agricultural side a limited preferential agreement, like all other arrangements which fall short of membership, would exclude us from the common agricultural policy and condemn us to seeking minor concessions here and there. Under such conditions, agriculture would stagnate and the whole economy of this country would suffer as a result.

Association is designed for countries with a far lower level of economic development than we have and I have found no evidence to suggest that the EEC would contemplate such a status in our case. Association is intended to prepare a country for eventual membership and, therefore, it is not really an alternative to but rather a deferment of membership. During the period of "preparation" we would be denied the full benefits of membership and the level of our economic growth would be slowed down. This is not what we want. I do not think that many people would settle willingly for a lower rate of prosperity when, for the very first time in our history, there is the chance of achieving a dramatic breakthrough in relation to living standards.

These, then, are the alternatives to membership. Because of the enormous disadvantages attaching to each of them, I am certain that they could lead only to economic isolation and to stagnation. The prospects for agriculture would be grim. Even the opponents of membership admit that. There would be what they euphemistically call "difficulties". This must be compared with the benefits of the common agricultural policy available to us as members. These include guaranteed high prices for our major products, irrespective of where they are sold; protection against imports from outside the Community; subsidies for our exports to non-member countries and financial aid towards improving the structure of agriculture. Industry will suffer because of the elimination of protection either in whole or in part—and it is accepted by all that some degree of free trade is inevitable—but it would not be counter-balanced by the increased activity generated by a prosperous agriculture and, perhaps, more important in the long run, the attraction of Ireland for new investment would practically disappear. Also, we would deny ourselves the benefits of the Community commitment to the future development of Ireland. Already we hear of several industries that are held up until our membership of the EEC is certain. I wonder whether the anti-EEC lobby can really deny that industrialists would be reluctant to invest in this country if we passed off deliberately the chance of joining one of the greatest trading groups in the world?

As I have mentioned, some of our critics admit that there would be difficulties for us outside the EEC. However, their solutions to these difficulties seem to me to display the same lack of realism which characterises their assessment of the alternatives to membership. It is claimed that outside the EEC we would have freedom to subsidise exports, grant tax reliefs, vary exchange rates and boost our trade with other countries. It is claimed that these measures would enable us to maintain and stimulate economic growth.

However, this ignores a number of facts. First, as members of the EEC we are being allowed to retain our export tax reliefs and if at some future date we have to withdraw them they will be replaced by incentives of equal value. Therefore, being out of the EEC offers no advantage to us on this score. Subsidisation of exports costs money and outside the Community our resources for this would be very limited because of the generally slower rate of economic activity. In fact, one of the advantages of membership is that the burden of subsidising our agricultural exports will be shifted from the Irish taxpayer either to the consumer abroad or to the funds of the Community.

It is claimed also that only outside the EEC would we be able to develop new markets for our exports. Membership of the Community will not in any way inhibit our efforts to expand our exports to markets such as the US, Japan, eastern Europe or the developing countries. As members, our prospects in such markets will be, perhaps, improved somewhat because we will benefit from any concessions secured by the greater bargaining power of the EEC and from the various association agreements which the Community have with developing countries.

For all of the reasons that I have outlined and which I have tried to confine to matters concerned more or less directly with me as Minister for Finance, I am convinced absolutely that the best interests of this country lie in full membership of the EEC, that the so-called alternatives are not real alternatives in any sense of being acceptable to our people in terms of the standard of living they are prepared to accept. Therefore, I urge the House to support the motion in this regard and I intend to do my best personally to ensure that the people have the issues explained to them. I am confident that once they know what the issues are and know the facts even in outline, they will not hesitate to vote for full membership of the EEC.

May I ask the Minister one question? Is it not true that the Germans have been allowed, since they re-valued their currency, to put a tariff on French agricultural produce entering Germany?

In so far as it is necessary for them to adjust changes in parity, it is true and it is one of the reasons for the decision made recently in Brussels to limit the fluctuation in the parities.

I do not mind what are the reasons.

It is a temporary compensatory tax.

I asked a single straightforward question.

The Deputy received a simple straightforward answer.

Deputy O'Donovan will be able to contribute later. I am calling Deputy Flanagan.

My contribution to this debate will be based, as it should be, on the terms of the White Paper issued by the Government in January last. My comments are designed to solicit information and to express my opinion on this issue, bearing in mind that I have the honour to be a member of a party that is committed to EEC membership. Every member of the party is aware of the very strong personal convictions which I have and which I expressed in the party when I dissented. Nevertheless, I accepted most readily the majority decision, and when the referendum is over I am sure the people will likewise most readily accept the majority decision. One cannot live in a democracy unless majority decisions are honoured.

In relation to the speech of the Minister for Finance and the speeches of other Ministers in relation to the EEC, the financial position of this country has reached such a low level due to the incompetence and inefficiency of the Government that they are prepared to clutch at any straw. It must be remembered that the record of job creation in the 1960s occurred during a period in which the Government consistently financed one quarter of their total expenditure by borrowing. As a result of this the National Debt has risen from £417 million to £1,009 million between 1960 and 1970 or by 142 per cent, and the cost of servicing that National Debt rose from £28 million to £102 million or by 264 per cent.

Since 1932 we have been hearing speeches from Fianna Fáil Ministers which indicate that a great period of prosperity is coming, that they have discovered a worthwhile plan. In 1932-33 they promised the entire Irish community that, as a result of their policies, they would bring back all the emigrants that had ever emigrated from this country and put them back into employment. In more recent years we had the First and Second Programmes for Economic Expansion; and we had a famous speech which was made in Clery's ballroom in regard to the creation of 100,000 new jobs, which never materialised. We now find that if we are to survive we must hold on to something. The EEC is the oar that is to rescue us.

According to Fianna Fáil, when we join the EEC we shall have no more poor farmers. There will be no more unemployment. Our living standards will be second to none. The problem of the west of Ireland will be solved. Along with all that, in some mysterious way the Border will disappear. Listening to the speeches of the Government Ministers, I wondered had they any appreciation of the intelligence of the ordinary people. Do they really believe that the ordinary men and women down the country will fall for the Utopia that has been promised by the Fianna Fáil speakers at various weekend functions and in their contributions in relation to the Common Market in this House? The 100,000 jobs never materialised any more than the drainage of the Shannon materialised.

I am sorry to see that an important constitutional problem of this kind should be used by Fianna Fáil as a means of clinging on to office. This White Paper is supposed to be a guideline to the people in making up their minds as to whether they are to vote "Yes" or "No". This document has been prepared at no small expense to the Irish taxpayer. It contains a large number of inaccuracies and does not supply the Irish people with the information which is necessary in order to enable them to appreciate their future commitments in the EEC. This is an incomplete document and it is also misleading. Therefore, this longawaited White Paper which we are now discussing comes as a very keen disappointment.

A few moments ago the Minister for Finance referred to hard bargaining. There is nothing in this White Paper to indicate where there has been any hard bargaining or any worthwhile bargaining on behalf of any section of the community in respect of such a vital step as entry to the EEC. This White Paper has been prepared and complied by a Government which have lost the confidence of the people. That is No. 1. The people have no trust in the Government. They have no admiration for the Government and they have no faith in the Government.

Hear, hear.

This is an incomplete White Paper. Why is it incomplete? The answer must be obvious to everyone. The Fianna Fáil Government and the Fianna Fáil Party have been so busy trying to keep themselves together that they failed in their duty to do what the Minister described a few minutes ago as "hard bargaining". I have no confidence in any negotiations carried out by the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Foreign Affairs or any other Minister in that Government over there. If they were really concerned, then the first thing they would have done was to resign.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

They would have resigned and sought a mandate from the people to negotiate. Such negotiations as were carried out took place in a period of political crisis. We had the Government tottering from crisis to crisis and the bargaining that took place was quite insufficient and certainly not good enough.

This White Paper should have spelled out clearly the advantages and disadvantages of membership of the EEC. Voters have been consistently deceived by Fianna Fáil Ministers and Deputies. They have had in the past promises made which were never fulfilled. They will have in the future more promises of the great times that are coming after 1st January, 1973, when the adventurous Fianna Fáil Moses leads them into the Promised Land. I maintain that everything should be spelled out clearly so that voters will know exactly what the advantages and disadvantages are. I object to vast sums of public money being spent in advocating entry into the EEC——

Hear, hear.

——because all the propaganda is designed for political purposes and for the advancement of Fianna Fáil. Nowhere have I seen a balanced account presented to the voters. There is a promise of full employment, a promise of great prosperity for our farmers, big and small. I heard a Minister exaggerate to such an extent recently that he painted a picture of the small farmer as wealthy and as rich in the EEC as the big farmer. In another area in which there is extensive unemployment, he said that, as soon as we enter the EEC, the big problem will be to get enough workers to work in the factories which the European industrialists will establish at every crossroads in the country.

Even though it may be limited, there is still some common sense left in rural Ireland. The people are not prepared to accept a major step taken by a Government in which they have lost confidence. As a result of the financial and economic policies of the Government over the past few years, I hold that they have no longer any right or authority from the Irish people. Yet, this is the Government which entered into negotiations.

We are dealing with a motion now.

I believe a new Government would negotiate far more beneficial conditions for this country. The best service a politician can render on an issue of this kind is to make two facts clear: this decision is a fundamental decision and it is also a political decision. In making this clear a politician serves all and injures none. This issue should have been regarded as a constitutional issue because of its great importance and it should have been above and beyond politics. There are vital points which may be overlooked by voters and there is a duty on Members of this House to advise but not to exaggerate.

Listening to the Minister for Finance speaking one would imagine that everyone who was anti-EEC was a crank, or had a chip on his shoulder, or was not prepared to admit that, if we enter, we will have difficulties and, if we stay out, we will also have difficulties. Of course we will. I am one who has strong personal convictions in relation to our entry to the EEC. I realise that by going in we will have enormous difficulties to surmount because of the keenness of competition and the other difficulties I see in which we will be involved as a result of membership. I am not so dumb, however, as not to appreciate and admit that if we stay out and if Britain goes in there will be great difficulties to be overcome. Everybody is taking it for granted that Britain is going into the EEC. A referendum has yet to take place in Norway. From my limited knowledge I think that if the result of the referendum in Norway is negative, Denmark will not go in. While the green light has now been given for Britain's entry, if the answer to the French referendum is "No", Mr. Pompidou can say to Mr. Heath: "I approved of you, I welcomed you but I am very sorry the French people say the Community is not to be enlarged and that is the end of it. You do not come in."

Political observers, correspondents and journalists all express the opinion that the result of the French referendum will be a "Yes" in favour of the enlargement of the Community. It is my opinion that the French people will be looking after their own interests, that they will want to safeguard themselves against the free industrial traffic between themselves and Britain. I doubt if the French farmers, who are going through a difficult time at present in the EEC, will want to see the Community enlarged. I should not be surprised if, in spite of the sympathy of the French Prime Minister towards the British Prime Minister, in spite of the outward appearance of goodwill and friendliness, because of the position in relation to French industrial and agricultural activities the people of that country said "No". Do we proceed with our referendum or do we hold our referendum over until the French referendum has been held? Is that one of the reasons why no exact date could be given for our referendum? It would probably be the wisest course to allow the French referendum to be held first. I cannot see why we should rush into having ours, which probably would result in the people saying "Yes" or maybe saying "No" and the entire decision would then be taken by the French people as to whether that was effective or not.

I want to relate the whole question of the Common Market to the human element. We hear a great deal about cattle, sheep and pigs. We do not hear so much about people. It is people that count and it is about time we put the emphasis on people. In Common Market language there seems to be great emphasis on livestock. What really counts are men, women and children. I hope our decision on this matter will not be based on the consideration of livestock but on the consideration of men, women and children. God gives man birds, flowers and animals for his use and benefit but man must be recognised as the creature made in the likeness of God. When I hear all this talk about money and livestock, I am inclined to ask myself whether people, the way of life and the society in which we live are all forgotten for the sake of what can be described as temporary or false prosperity. The sooner we realise that money is not everything the better. It is quite a lot, I agree, but one of the most prosperous countries in Europe is Sweden and it has the highest suicide rate in the world and the greatest number of unhappy homes of any country in Europe. Has that great prosperity brought happiness to men, women and children? When we consider this question we should ask ourselves in what way would these changes alter our way of life. Are we going to surrender our way of life for a higher degree of prosperity? I certainly would not like to see the traditional Irish way of life changed. I might be considered as one of the conservative people and labelled as "Anti-Change". No. Very far from it. We are living in a time of change, probably in a time of revolutionary change. We can see the great wave of prosperity in the country I have just mentioned and also the great unhappiness.

Are we going to join a great European race for money? Friends of mine who have just returned from the Continent tell me that in a town near Amsterdam there was no one to be seen on the streets at 10.30 p.m., that the people were all in their homes either in bed or watching television. When they went for refreshments there were only two people present at 9.30 p.m. On the other hand, at 5 a.m. they were wakened up by the people going to work and were told in their hotel that it was time to come down to breakfast. By 7 a.m. women were returning home from having completed their shopping. Would life be worth living if Ireland adopted these standards? There is a typical Irish way of life. I hope it never changes. We may be described as easy-going but a little satisfies us. If we continentalise ourselves, the good old restful Irish way of life may be disturbed and I would not like to see that happening.

Any Deputy who has been in Canada or the United States knows that the only time one can have a leisurely conversation there is on the telephone after midnight, that it is a case of work and more work. There is an extraordinary mortality rate from heart failure. I would prefer to live the easy way of life and have a little less rather than risk thrombosis and early death. Those who advocate our membership of the EEC may consider it worthwhile to exchange our way of life for a new way of life but I have grave doubts that the Irish people would adopt the change as readily or as speedily as they seem to think.

Some of the speeches by various Ministers are very critical of anyone who expresses an opinion against joining the EEC, and describe them as persons who have a chip on their shoulder, unreasonable persons, cranks and persons not qualified to understand the economics of the situation.

Whenever a Fianna Fáil speaker is asked about alternatives he is loud in expressing the view that there is no alternative. Of all the Deputies in the House at this moment, I am the longest sitting Member. Since I came into the House I have been listening to Fianna Fáil saying that there is no alternative to Fianna Fáil. There is no alternative when Fianna Fáil do not want an alternative. There is an alternative to everything except death. There are only six countries in the EEC. How do the others who are outside the EEC survive? Fianna Fáil are very successful at each general election in convincing the people that there is no alternative to Fianna Fáil. If the people were not hoodwinked they would know there is an alternative to Fianna Fáil.

It is not the duty of the Opposition to provide alternatives to joining the EEC. The Opposition did not take part in the negotiations. I doubt that they had any hand, act or part in them. Fianna Fáil should have been honest with the people and told them what the position is, what they would gain from membership, what would happen if we did not become a member, and what are the alternatives. The Irish people are paying Ministers to do this work. They are in receipt of very handsome salaries, allowances, gratuities and the odd perk is thrown in also. They are paid to produce facts and figures, schemes and plans and alternative schemes and plans. In this case we are told we can take it or leave it, that there is no alternative. It is like the big bone that is thrown to the hungry dog when there is nothing else available. The big bone has nothing on it.

Did the Government or any member of it negotiate with the British Government in order to discover what our position will be assuming that Britain joins the EEC and we decide not to join? Assuming for a moment that the Irish voter, in his wisdom, votes "No" and Britain joins the EEC, is it only then that our Government will ask Mr. Heath and his Ministers what they will do and what can they do for us? These negotiations should have been carried out and provision should have been made for emergencies. A scheme should have been prepared on the basis of what happens if we go in, what happens if we do not go in, what happens if we stay out and Britain goes in. There is nothing apart from this White Paper of inaccuracies—leabhar na leithscéal— book of excuses. If there is any country in the world in which Ministers are getting away with blue political murder, it is this country. In no other country would so many people be prepared to swallow the thesis, in relation to such an important question as entering the EEC, that it was useless to look for alternatives because there are none. They did not even prove that any attempt was made to seek an alternative.

The Minister is critical of the arrangement with New Zealand. As a result of the negotiations that have taken place, in the event of entry our farmers may have short-term substantial gains but I am convinced that these gains will be turned into long-term losses. I am afraid that this will happen because no guarantees have been given.

In my constituency there are many wheat-growers but I cannot tell them that there are guarantees for them in the EEC. I am more afraid for the beet-growers in my constituency. We are near the Carlow beet factory and beet-growers in my area supply beet to the factories at Thurles, Tuam and Carlow.

We saw what happened in relation to the sugar quota. At the moment we can deal with our own problems in relation to sugar beet. We have four factories and there is a substantial acreage under beet. However, when we must depend on the whim of people in Brussels who may not have any great interest in industry, what will happen to the beet-growers in my constituency and to the many people who are employed in the factories at Carlow and Thurles?

Perhaps I am wrong, but it is my belief that as a result of the quota restrictions and the policy of the EEC with regard to sugar, by the end of the seventies our beet factories will be reduced to two and there will be a drastic reduction in the acreage of beet. Yet, the Government have not told the beet farmers what they can grow when they are forced to stop production of beet. The Government should put the facts before the people; they should tell the beet-growers and the wheat-growers the position and not paint a picture of endless and boundless prosperity around the corner.

I am worried about the future of the textile industry in my constituency. In Tullamore the textile industry is the main source of employment; the same situation applies in Portlaoise, in Mountmellick and Rathdowney. What will be the position for the workers in the textile industry in my constituency in the event of free trade? I am convinced that they will suffer severely and that eventually the factories will be forced to close down.

There is nothing in the White Paper to show us what alternative employment the Government will offer the people who are thrown out of employment. It is left to me to ask this question in the Dáil but the Minister will put his thumb in his mouth and tell us that we must wait and see. He will say we must enter the Community first and then we will fight. That is no good to the people who will lose their employment.

What will happen to those engaged in the boot and shoe industry in my constituency? At the moment there is a considerable amount of Italian footwear being imported and this will happen to a greater degree in free trade conditions. If the boot and shoe factories close down, will the Government tell the people concerned before they cast their votes what will happen to them? That is what I should like to hear from the Taoiseach or the Minister for Labour but I have not heard it.

We are told that there will be queues of European industrialists, all vying with each other to start industries here. What industries will they set up? In order to get votes in the referendum Fianna Fáil tell us that there will be factories at every crossroads. Let them tell us what the factories will produce and where they will be situated.

Economists would be forced to agree that people go to the growth centres. In recent times Dublin has expanded considerably at the expense of the west, the south-west, of Leitrim, Roscommon and Donegal. In addition, workers went to large centres such as Birmingham, Coventry, London and Liverpool. Even in the midlands there has been a drift to Dublin. Many of my former constituents are living in Ballymun and Ballyfermot. They went to these places because these were the growth areas.

When we enter the EEC I do not think the industrialists will come to the underdeveloped districts but they will encourage people to go to the growth centres and, as has been stated here tonight, the golden triangle of central industrial Europe will be the area to which many of these people will be forced to go. I cannot see any European industrialist opening a factory in Ireland, manufacturing products and exporting them back to Europe. These industrialists are shrewd, hard-headed businessmen and we will be so small and insignificant that they will not take any notice of pleas about the necessity for employment in Roscommon, Leitrim, in the western areas, in Laois or in Offaly.

In the event of an enlarged Europe, the golden triangle will become larger. Our people will be encouraged to go into this area in order to obtain employment. Is it not true to say that at one time the Irish went to Manchester and London and other British cities in search of employment? To them those were the growth centres in what could be described as a limited common market.

I have very great doubts—I hope I am wrong; maybe I am wrong—about all the factories and industries we hear about. I heard a speaker recently, not from my own party, saying that there would be so many new factories opened in this country immediately we went into Europe that people would have a choice as to which factory they would work in. I heard all that 30 years ago from Fianna Fáil when I first came into this House. I do not believe a word of it. I cannot see where all the extraordinary developments we are told about will take place.

If there is anything to be gained by membership of the EEC, in my opinion it will be for the farmers and particularly for the big farmers. I believe it will be a temporary gain. I cannot see what is in the Common Market for the housewife. I should like to get from the Taoiseach some ray of hope for those people who are finding it extremely difficult to keep body and soul together in present circumstances. There are more people in this country than the farmers. Admittedly the farmer has had a hard time and a bad time. He never got the chance to develop from Fianna Fáil to which he was entitled, because Fianna Fáil never invested money in agriculture. Fianna Fáil never wanted to make the farmers anything but slaves. The farming community are anxious today to get into Europe because they feel there is something for them in Europe which they were denied by their own native Government. I hope they will not be disappointed.

Ask the housewife what is in Europe for her. Why are the Government not honest? Why do they not tell us that in the EEC a lb. of steak costs 130p, a lb. of butter costs 45p, a pint of milk costs 8p, a lb. of tea costs 120p and a dozen of eggs costs 45p? Is that what is in the EEC for the housewife, for the person on a fixed income, for the person living on private means? We have an undertaking from the Government that old age pensions and social welfare benefits will be brought up to a standard which will enable everybody to buy food at EEC prices. Why not tell us before we vote on this issue what we will get to enable us to buy food at Common Market prices? During or after the transitional period will we have to pay 130p for a lb. of steak? The people should be told these things now.

They should also be told by what percentage their social welfare benefits, their sickness benefits, their insurances and their home assistance will be increased. The workers and trade unionists should be told by how much their wages will be increased forthwith to enable them to purchase the necessaries of life. These are vital questions which the Government have a duty and a responsibility to answer. If the prices for food in the Common Market which I have quoted are incorrect the housewife should be told what the price of food will be. Do not tell her there will be factories at every crossroad in which her husband can work, She will not believe that. She heard it before. She heard it too often.

If the farmers are to get more for their agricultural produce—and they are entitled to more—will it be at the expense of the housewife and the poor? Remember 50p is the equivalent of 10s and 45p for a dozen of eggs is very near to 10s. How the poor, the working class, the sick and the underprivileged will purchase food at Common Market prices is a mystery to me. It is not my job to explain this to the public. It is not my responsibility. I am not paid to do that. Before God the responsibility rests on the Government to put these facts fairly and squarely before the people.

On the question of alternatives, a section of this White Paper should have been devoted to giving the Irish public information about the 28 countries who negotiated trade agreements with the EEC and who are not members of the EEC. The Irish people should be able to see for themselves what the conditions are in these 28 countries who are non-members and who are not committed to the EEC but who are good trading customers of the EEC.

Surely somebody should have gone to the trouble of finding out from the Government of Sweden why they applied for membership of the EEC and then decided that membership would interfere with their neutrality. Should we not have more information on that? If we do not get it from the Government, where can we get it? I could not get it as a Member of this House. All the alternatives should be clearly spelled out. I am not suggesting that the markets of Eastern Europe would be a good alternative to the British market. The British market is close to us. It is our nearest customer and our best paying customer. I remember within the past five years an Irish Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries going over to discuss a trade agreement with Britain and he came back with less than he had when he was going over. He lost as a result of the negotiations. That shows the negotiating ability of one Fianna Fáil Minister. The only time a proper trade arrangement was made with Britain to benefit this country was in 1948 when an agreement was negotiated by the then Taoiseach, Mr. Costello, Mr. James Dillon, as Minister for Agriculture, and Mr. Dan Morrissey, as Minister for Industry and Commerce. That trade agreement linked the price of Irish livestock with the price the British farmer got for his own livestock in Britain. That was the only trade agreement that put millions of pounds into the pockets of Irish farmers. The sad part of it was that the minute they got the chance they put out those who negotiated that successful agreement for them and put in men who, when they went to negotiate, came back with less than they had when they were going. It is often extremely hard to know when you are pleasing the people you represent.

There should have been more than a passing reference in the White Paper to the possible markets we could have had in eastern Europe and we should have had more information as to our prospects in the next ten or 15 years of trading, particularly with Japan. I saw that the Minister for Industry and Commerce was in Japan last year. He announced three or four factories when he came back but we did not see any of them yet; perhaps we shall. This is highly essential information. Young cattle and high quality poultry products should have a very good market in Europe; beef, lamb and sugar in the United States; beef and possibly dairy products in Japan. These would offer promising opportunities and would give Ireland improved access to the largest and most rapidly growing food markets in the world which are outside Europe and would lessen Ireland's dependence on the British market. Having these markets would strengthen our hand in negotiating with the British, if we were outside the EEC, or even in negotiating with the Common Market countries.

I want to express disappointment in regard to fisheries in connection with the White Paper. When I was charged with responsibility for fisheries from 1954 to 1957, I realised from my close association with every fishing port in the country that one section of our community was labouring under the most difficult conditions possible and that was our fishermen. They had not boats, gear or equipment, training or landing facilities or ice readily available or proper transport. The boat-building industry was in a state of chaos in those years. Meevagh in Donegal had been closed down; Killybegs was opened. Very shortly before the change of Government I visited Dingle with a view to extending the boat-building industry there. I never heard of it afterwards; there were no further plans.

The boatyard at Baltimore was in a most depressed condition. There was no ice in Schull or Ballycotton. The conditions under which I saw fishermen working were unbelievable. But they were hard and courageous workers. They had not the wherewithal that was necessary.

At that time the Government I was associated with permitted me to announce the initiation of the Gaeltacht boat scheme and the training scheme for skippers and young fishermen. Even though I was only a Deputy representing the most inland constituency in the Republic, I had a deep concern for our fishermen because they were honest, hardworking, simple men and I could see there was a bountiful harvest awaiting them but they could not reap it because they had neither boats nor gear.

What is the position now. With the extension of the fishery limits and with the review clause in the proposed arrangement at the end of the transition period, I feel that when it comes to review the fishery limits our fishermen will be seen to have been sold out. I believe we have the best fishing grounds of any country and we have the men but the fishing industry requires a vast investment. I cannot see how our fishermen can compete against the French because I have seen the French boats coming right up to Ballycotton during the lobster season when our own fishermen had not equipment to enable them to go out five miles. Also, I saw that the French could come up almost to Donegal. When the herring season is at its best around Dunmore East, do we not see the foreign trawlers reaping the benefit of the herring shoals that should be for our fishermen? What will happen when there is a free-for-all? Our fishermen may look on. Once the foreigners have taken up the harvest of the sea our fishermen can do nothing about it and neither can the Government.

I think that Ireland as an EEC member will be required to permit fishermen from other EEC countries to fish on the same terms as our own fishermen. That will put our men at a tremendous disadvantage. Surely something must be done in the event of our entering the EEC to protect and safeguard our fishermen? Do not take me as criticising everything. I assume the referendum will be carried. What will then be the position of these fishermen? Will they be put out of business by the foreigners? This House will be powerless. What will the men in Brussels do to safeguard the livelihood of our fishermen? There must be between 4,500 and 5,000 people getting a living out of fishing. Shall we sit down and see the Europeans enjoying a higher standard of living at the expense of our fishermen? I did not give three of the best years of my life for that while I was in charge of fisheries.

Thank God, if I visit any of our fishing ports today—I seldom do because they are out of my reach—I get a hearty welcome in the homes of every fisherman I meet. They know that I made a serious effort to help them and that in conjunction with the then Minister for Agriculture, Mr. Dillon, I was pushing an open door in trying to develop our fisheries and improve the standard of living of the fishermen. These improvements are at stake now and I want to hear more from the Government as to what greater guarantees and safeguards there are to ensure that there will be no interference but, instead, that there will be a higher standard of living for those engaged in the fishing industry. What proportion of the increased wealth and prosperity that is supposed to come to us as a result of membership of the Common Market will go towards the development of the fishing industry? I could never understand why suitable arrangements could not have been made to borrow from some landing agency, such as the International Bank, for reconstruction and development to ensure that five years ago steps would have been taken that would have left our fishermen now in the position of being able to face any competition that may come from foreign fishermen who will have the right to take the fish from under the boats of our fishermen. I am not satisfied with the explanations that have been given here either by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries or the Minister for Foreign Affairs. I want whatever Minister will be replying to this debate to answer all these questions. Every Minister seems to have a say but when it comes to getting an answer here they pass the question from one to another so that what is everybody's business becomes nobody's business. Somebody should be responsible for answering all these questions in relation to the EEC.

I am told that during the past ten years in Holland the pig population has doubled but that the number of producers has been reduced to half what it was at that time. That bears out what I was saying at the beginning of my remarks—which counts most, people or animals? Can the great EEC experts tell me what are the other half of the producers working at now. Are they in industrial employment? Within the past ten days I was an attentive listener at an EEC lecture and I took particular note of what was said by an agricultural adviser who had returned from Holland and it was he who gave this information regarding the reduction in the number of pig producers. Are the people who have gone out of pig production in Holland getting Mansholt pensions and, if so, how much are they getting? Surely anybody who has been in the Common Market area as often as our Ministers have, can answer that question. Does it not look as if in the eyes of the Dutch Government, pigs were more important than people?

I want to relate this to our own country. The constituency I represent is a good pig producing area. If pig producers consult me before the referendum, unlike some of the Ministers, I do not want to have to tell them that I do not know the answers to their questions and that we will have to wait until we are in the Common Market before we can give the answers. These people will want to know the position.

There is a substantial bacon factory in my own town in which many of my neighbours are employed. It is one of the most progressive and successful in the country and is run by Messrs. Henry Denny and Company. I want to see this factory thriving and not have the same sort of position that obtains now in Waterford. If there is to be regionalisation and the elimination of all small bacon factories, what is to be the position of the pig producers and of the bacon factory workers? We are very proud of the factory at Mountmellick which has produced the highest quality bacon for export. There is another factory in Tullamore in which also large numbers of my constituents are employed. This factory, too, is supplied to a large extent by the pig producers of my constituency. On the borders of the constituency there is the progressive bacon factory at Roscrea that is managed very efficiently and which takes pigs from Offaly, Laois and North Tipperary. What will be the prospects for all of these factories in a free trade situation? It is my opinion that in such circumstances pig production and bacon curing, if they survive at all, would do so only on a small scale. I have no wish to embarrass the Government but I want information—information that is not in the White Paper. Of whom am I to ask these questions?

Ask Deputy FitzGerald.

I agree that Deputy FitzGerald and I are on more than nodding acquaintance and I am sure he would let me have the information.

I would deal with the questions now but I do not think the Chair would permit me.

I shall not take much more time. However, I would prefer to hear the answers from the Minister.

The Deputy could not believe him.

Deputy Flanagan is denigrating his colleagues.

I do not doubt Deputy FitzGerald's ability as an economist whatever grave doubts I may have about him politically but I would prefer to have the information from the Minister. It is all right for Deputy FitzGerald as an outstanding economist of the highest order——

How many orders are there?

——to answer. I hope the Deputy accepts my remarks as a sincere tribute but he has not the responsibility of Government. There is no point in my telling my constituents what Deputy FitzGerald said. I must be able to tell them what was said by the Minister who negotiated the terms in Brussels. If Deputy FitzGerald had been involved in the negotiations, he would be the first one I would consult and I am sure that there would be nobody more welcome than I to his office at any time.

Any set back to the bacon industry would weaken the position of our meat export industry. In recent weeks we have seen the position of the meat export industry. Under Common Market conditions our meat industry would be required to compete on this small domestic market with imports of meat products from all the other EEC countries which are now excluded by tariffs and other forms of protection. This will be a serious disadvantage to the bacon industry. I want to know what the position will be when bacon from the Netherlands, Denmark and Britain comes in here to compete with home-produced bacon. I have a great fear that this will have a serious effect on employment. No one so far has convinced me on the question of the purchase of land by foreigners. Article 7 of the Treaty of Rome states:

Within the field of application of this Treaty and without prejudice to the special provisions mentioned therein, any discrimination on the grounds of nationality shall hereby be prohibited.

I am told that a foreigner cannot purchase land, but when I meet some of my auctioneer colleagues they tell me they are only waiting for the day when we enter the Common Market, they have so many places for these foreigners. We are told that when an estate comes on the market the Government will buy it and so outbid the foreigner. We are not so foolish as to fall for that, because there are numerous farms on the market at present, and the Land Commission have power to buy them now for the relief of congestion and they will not do it. When they will not do it to relieve congestion now, how can you expect the Government to have an institution set up similar to the Land Commission to buy the land that will come on the market for the purpose of keeping the foreigner out? I have had numerous cases, but one in particular in which I spent several weeks trying to get the Land Commission to buy a farm that was purchased by an alien and which the local people could do with for the relief of congestion. The Land Commission did not do that; the alien bought it and has it.

The Land Commission and the Government are painting a false picture of the purchase of land by aliens. The Irish landowner should have a priority in the purchase of land. Whatever concessions may be obtained during the transitional period, Article 7 clearly precludes discrimination against foreigners purchasing land, just as it precludes discrimination against foreign fishermen fishing in territorial waters. After the transitional period we shall be required to remove impediments to the purchase of land by aliens, probably for holiday, recreational and other amenity purposes as well as for large-scale commercial exploitation. This will further reduce the opportunities for young Irish people to become farmers in their own country.

I am not satisfied that the Common Market regulations sufficiently safeguard the land of Ireland for the people of Ireland. I have been brought up in the country of James Fintan Lalor where the love for the land is as great as in any other part of this country. The principles of James Fintan Lalor set out in his famous letter to the nation will never be obliterated from the hearts of Irish people who love the land and who will not be prepared to stand by and see the land that their forefathers fought for, taken from them, the land of Parnell, Davitt and Dillon, the land which, during the Land League days, serious efforts were made to retain for the Irish people. James Fintan Lalor wrote:

The principle I state and mean to stand upon is this, that the entire ownership of Ireland, moral and material, up to the sun and down to the centre is the vested of right in the people of Ireland. I hold and maintain that the entire soil of the country belongs of right to the entire people of that country. It is the lawful property not of any class but of the nation at large in full and effective possession.

If we enter the EEC I want to warn all advocates in advance that serious efforts will be made by the Irish people to see that the land will be protected for them and for them alone. I do not intend to deal with the Mansholt Plan. It is too long and too detailed, and anyway I know very little about it. However, I know what section 90 of the Mansholt Plan involves, and I quote:

For stable crops like grain or root crops production units would have to be at least 80 to 120 hectares, that is, 200 to 300 acres. In dairy farming they would have to keep 40 to 60 cows, in meat production 150 to 200 head of cattle. In poultry farming they would have to turn out 100,000 birds per year, and, if they go in for eggs, keep 10,000 laying hens, and in pig farming they would have to fatten 450 to 600 animals at a time.

That is section 90 of the Mansholt Plan, which is deliberately designed for the big, well-to-do farmer, and there are very few farmers in this country capable of achieving that standard.

Would the Deputy tell us what happened the plan?

The plan was not put into operation but it is still there.

In Brussels, for consideration at any moment. If Dr. Mansholt becomes president, which is likely within the next couple of days, Deputy FitzGerald should not be too sure that the plan will not come up again. I am terrified of this. I am also unhappy about the number of farms to be reduced in various ways specified in the Mansholt Plan. This is something that requires the strictest possible supervision, more particularly when the Commission of the EEC, in its Agriculture 1980 Programme, has set 50 per cent as a target reduction in agricultural population between 1970 and 1980. Section 88 of the Mansholt Plan states:

The Commission considers that if the measures contained in the Agriculture 1980 Programme to help persons wishing to change their occupation or to retire is to have the effect expected, the effective agricultural population would fall from ten million in 1970 to five million in 1980.

Adherence to this policy by this country would require a reduction of 146,000 in the 1970 agricultural population of 291,000. That would represent an annual rate of decline of 7 per cent compared with 2.9 per cent in the sixties. I am terrified of the ideas of Dr. Mansholt. However, I am not at all as terrified of them as I am of what I read in the Irish Independent of Tuesday, 14th March last. There was a headline: “1971 was a gloomy year for the EEC” under which it was stated:

The economic year in the EEC ended on a sombre note in 1971, the Common Market Commission said in its 1971 report to the Council of Ministers.

It was marked by: Rapid increase of costs and prices; Deteriorating labour situation, marked by shorter hours and more jobless; Considerable slow-down in growth-rate, except in France; Large in-flows of money, due to the international monetary crisis.

That does not sound like a great degree of prosperity to me. This one is even worse—Irish Independent of Wednesday, 26th January, 1971, under the heading “Farmers try a cock-and-bull protest in Brussels”:

A group of Belgian farmers protesting the need for higher prices succeeded in releasing a bull in the Belgian parliament building yesterday—much to the discomfort of local politicians.

They also tried to smuggle six pigs into the building and a clutch of cocks, but this last attempt was thwarted. Afterwards three men were arrested.

When we enter the EEC, I hope that our farmers, if they do not get what they expect, will release not one but a team of bulls on the Fianna Fáil Party.

Up on the fifth floor? The lift would not take them.

In the Irish Independent of Thursday, 27th January, we find:

Farm prices row flares in Brussels.

A fierce behind-the-scenes row broke out in the Common Market Commission yesterday during an all-day meeting of the nine-man body when they failed to agree on what proposals to make about increased farm prices for the next 12 months.

I do not like the smell of that. Here is another cutting from the Irish Independent of Thursday, 10th February, it is one which must cause serious discomfort. It is headed: “Two Million Unemployed in the EEC”, and reads:

The number of unemployed in the EEC area rose to more than 2 million in the second half of last year—and there are no signs of improvement, a senior Common Market official said yesterday.

Two million unemployed! If there is all that prosperity and all these industrialists are tripping over themselves to start factories here to employ the 87,000 unemployed that we have how is it they cannot provide employment for this two million? This certainly causes me a great deal of uneasiness and alarm. It certainly gives me cause for worry.

I have here a cutting from the Irish Independent of 12th January, 1972, which is headed: “Vintners Oppose EEC entry” and states:

The Irish National Vintners' Federation is against EEC entry. In an editorial in the January issue of their journal, they claim that if Ireland joined the Common Market food prices would double and there would be massive unemployment and emigration.

In addition to that, they circulated a notice. I have a number of influential publicans in my constituency. I cannot say that I contribute to their prosperity. I cannot say that I visit them as often as they would like, but they are hard-working, industrious, honest and obliging men. I know the difficulties they have in making a livelihood. The notice to which I have referred asks people to give copies of it to their friends. My benevolent publican friend presented me with this copy which I read with grave uneasiness and concern for the many publicans who are finding it difficult to make a living in my constituency because of the large number of unemployed and the depressed economic conditions. Article 263 of the Government White Paper states:

Article 263 confirms the above and directs that free entry be given to various business sections amongst which are: Catering (restaurants, public houses and hotels).

So far I have had no clarification of this. This year the hotel business is depressed and it will take a long time to revive the tourist trade. With free entry of these particular business sections the effect will be a great increase, as this notice says, in the number of licensing outlets, the ruination of business, and the loss of family livelihoods. No reference of any kind has been made to this. This is something I view with alarm.

I want now to refer to a cutting from the Irish Independent of 24th February, 1972, with the heading: “Limited Families in EEC Urged”, and which says:

Dr. Sicco Mansholt, vice-president of the Common Market Commission, in charge of agriculture, has sent a letter to the Commission President, Signor Malfatti, in which he describes his ideas for a revolutionary economic policy including proposals to mini growth and consumption and to abolishing social benefits for large families.

He goes on to express the view that the main problem lies in democracy. He says that although the birth rate problem is more serious in the developing countries, "the industrial West can no longer escape the need to control birth".

I want to make one very brief reference to this. I do not agree with Dr. Mansholt's view and I am entitled to say so here. It is a restriction on family. It is family planning by blackmail. Dr. Mansholt recommends that those with large families should not receive higher rates of social welfare benefit. This is unchristian. It is contrary to the Christian ethic. When, and if, we join the EEC I hope there will be some Irish member sufficiently moved to consult with Dr. Mansholt and try to put him back on the right road. What he recommends is grossly wrong. If this is the mentality in Brussels—I do not know whether it is or not—the sooner someone is in there to change that mentality the better.

No better man than the Deputy.

It will not be me.

On this subject it should be the Deputy.

I do not claim I am qualified to speak on a subject like this, but I am perturbed. If the influence of Europe is reflected in Ireland, and if this is the kind of influence to which we will be subjected, then it will be an influence wholly alien to the traditions of this country and it will be very much resented. Perhaps Dr. Mansholt does not speak for Ireland when he says he writes this letter in order to promote discussion in Ireland and the other member countries. With regard to cutting off the dole and the other social welfare benefits from those with large families, it has been the policy in this country to encourage large families and to provide social welfare benefits for large families. That was the idea of Mr. James Dillon in this House many years ago when he was the first to mention family allowances. This was to help people with large families. Seemingly, in the EEC the mentality—it may not be the policy but it is the idea—is to penalise those with large families so that people will not have large families. This is restriction of population by blackmail in any language and I do not like it. I want to express my disapproval of it.

Perhaps I have too much confidence in the institutions of State. Perhaps my faith in Parliament is too great. I am extremely worried, and no Government spokesman has cleared the air for me, about the powers of this House when we enter the EEC. The Community already has a common agricultural policy, a common external tariff and a common labour market. In all these matters the same decisions are binding on all. National governments and parliaments have renounced the right and the power to take their own decisions. If that is right, when we enter the EEC we in Dáil Éireann will be told: "This is what you must approve. You can discuss it as long as you like but you cannot decide otherwise." In the case of common currency our debate will not have any effect on the questions of devaluation, revaluation, prices and incomes policy, a credit squeeze, inflation or deflation. All these will be settled elsewhere for the Community as a whole. In other words, on matters relating to agriculture and financial policy, et cetera, Dáil Éireann will be a glorified county council. We can talk for as long as we like but decisions will be made in Brussels.

Times have changed and some people may think that that is right but I think it is wrong. I am prepared to listen to every man's views. I have always regarded Dáil Éireann as the highest court in this country, the supreme authority, the last voice. For the almost 30 years for which I have been a Member, I have cherished the idea that Dáil Éireann was the supreme authority, that the people had the right to elect intelligent or unintelligent men, good men or bad men. In such a democracy the voice of the people was heard, Members came in here, spoke and voted. Parliament had the last say. There may be nothing in my fears but I am at this moment afraid that we are surrendering to men in Brussels rights and authorities that should be exercised in this House.

I want to ensure that the supreme court of this country is Dáil Éireann and that the courts established by Dáil Éireann are the courts of say in this land. I want Dáil Éireann to be the supreme authority. Maybe the time has come for change and maybe I am wrong. If I am wrong I readily accept it but I have always been a believer in the supremacy of Parliament, I have always cherished Parliament as the place in which the people had a voice in decision-making. I would hate to see a decision made in Brussels that was in conflict with the principles of Dáil Éireann. I would hate to see a decision made by foreigners imposing something on us which was contrary to the way of life of our people and about which we in Dáil Éireann could do nothing. That would put us, as Members of Dáil Éireann, in a farcical position. I hope Members of the House on all sides have gone deeply and fully into this and that even in the event of our entering the EEC an effort will be made to see that the voice and the decisions of Parliament are final.

I have always been a believer in a democratic parliament and our Parliament is one in which the voice of every man elected, rich or poor, simple or intelligent, big man or little man, is heard. I would love to see that continuing as it should in a democracy. We may express different views but we all have our say as representatives of the people and when Dáil Éireann reaches a decision that is the decision for this country. I am afraid that decisions taken in Brussels may at some time be in serious conflict with the way of life of our people. I think this Parliament should reserve its say. It is not yet too late. I would not be happy about a position in which Brussels rule would be imposed against our will. They may make decisions that we would make ourselves but I warn the House against the imposition of a Brussels decision that would be contrary to the Irish way of life. I hope all parties will bear that in mind. At the moment our Parliament is not interfered with by any foreign power. That is something we should be extremely slow to surrender.

Many people have referred, including Deputy Cruise-O'Brien, to our neutrality. The final decision when to fight and when not to fight is, in my opinion, a decision for individual countries and parliaments. I am told— and there is nothing in this White Paper to convince me otherwise—that there must be common decisions which are automatically binding, as a decision of this House would be. The question would arise then, if we are to enter into military commitments, is it this House that would say we would enter them or is it Brussels that would make that decision? What happens in the event of our being a member of the EEC if Brussels says that we must enter into military commitments and participate in some war that is of little concern to us, and this Parliament says: "No, we must not"? Perhaps the Minister for Labour or some other Minister who takes part in the debate might dwell on that. This topic was the subject of a recent debate and it was not disposed of satisfactorily. What would happen in the event of a conflict of opinion between the elected Parliament here and the European Parliament in Brussels in the matter of a military commitment? This question is not answered in the White Paper. The White Paper has not provided the volume of information that was expected.

The question of our neutrality is very important. The question of participation in wars, military obligations, conscription, is not covered satisfactorily in the White Paper. It is a question that is being asked by the people and they are entitled to a full and frank answer.

I hope that the views I have expressed will be on the record of the House as my personal views, views which I cherish. I have very strong convictions in this matter. I love the right of our people to have their own Parliament. I love the right of our Parliament to decide for our people. Perhaps I am narrow-minded or small-minded. Perhaps I am not European-minded. I would not like to be branded as being anti-Europe because Ireland is already in Europe geographically and we are all Europeans but we are Irish first and we love every blade of grass that grows in our country. We love our Irish traditions, our culture, our sports, our pastimes, our language. We want to see them safeguarded and protected. The views I have expressed I hold sincerely. I put them on the record of the House as being the personal views of a public representative with quite long service as a Member of the House.

I am afraid we are expecting too much. I conclude as I began by saying that if we go in, our difficulties will be enormous. If we stay out and Britain goes in, our difficulties will be enormous. I wanted to see, and have not seen tabulated in black and white, what steps we would take, what the position would be, how we would deal with difficulties. There is nothing in this book to indicate how the many difficulties that will arise on entry will be solved. There is nothing in the book to tell us how we will surmount the difficulties that will arise if we do not join the EEC. I ask all members of the Government to grow up and, when they come to debate the Common Market question in the country, not to shout down their opponents by asking where are the alternatives. There are alternatives. There is an alternative to everything. If the Government had been doing their job the alternatives would be available in black and white.

There will be alternatives. Assuming the referendum decision is "No" and Britain goes in, there will be alternatives. Assuming the French referendum decision is "No" and our referendum decision is "Yes", there will be alternatives because in that case Britain would not be going in. The time is coming when there should be a clear indication from the Government. The Government have not prepared the farmers or the industrial workers or industry or the country for entry to Europe and they certainly have not prepared them for the position that will arise if we do not go into Europe. The difficulties are enormous. There are grave problems to be solved. That is why I say the Government have not done their job, particularly over the past five or six years. Let us hope and trust that whatever the difficulties may be we will be able to surmount them.

I hope that the reference I made to our Parliament is on record. I stated my personal belief. I am a believer in democracy, in majority rule, in the supremacy of Parliament, in the right of every man to speak his mind. It will be a very poor day for Ireland when the voice of Parliament is silenced, when the decisions of Parliament are disregarded, when the Members of Parliament are afraid to talk. In that case, Parliament would have lost its effectiveness. Whatever happens in the referendum, whether the decision is "yes" or "no", I hope that democracy will reign forever in Ireland, that the voice of Members of Parliament will be heard as long as the country lasts and that this House will be the institution that will legislate for the people.

I must say that I thought this debate would never get off the ground. I thought there had been so much talk about this Common Market business that everybody was thoroughly tired of it and that the main reason why everyone was thoroughly tired of it was because, as Deputy Flanagan complained of a few minutes ago, the Government have been plugging just one line.

The Government have been spending a great deal of money. For example, today in a Supplementary Estimate for Foreign Affairs we voted £40,000 for information services. There is not the slightest doubt that this will be for more propaganda in favour of entry into Europe.

As Deputy Flanagan pointed out, we are Europeans. We are European in our system of education, in our system of craftwork and in our social system. In every way we belong to western Europe. We are now being asked to take a decision to join an institution which has been in existence for about 12 or 15 years and in which we would be a very small unit. The Taoiseach has referred to this country having a "full voice" in European matters. Different people are given different voices. We know from listening to speeches in this House that it is difficult to hear some people while others can be heard very well—I would mention Members such as Deputy Flanagan—and the same applies to Ministers. This business about Ireland having a full voice is just a gimmick and it has no merit whatever.

Twelve years ago I studied the Treaty of Rome carefully and I made up my mind then that it was not in our interest to enter the Common Market. If one does a job of work like that there is no need to re-do it. Life is too short to re-do things over and over again.

I have been vindicated twice about this matter. I said that England would not go into the Common Market in 1961-63. I know that it was popular, even in the Irish newspapers, to draw a man with a long nose and to say that he was the person who kept England out of Europe. I did not believe for one minute that General de Gaulle kept Britain out. The fact was that the British wanted special terms for agriculture to which the French were not prepared to agree. The kind of terms the British wanted could not have been given if they wanted to become members of the EEC. All General de Gaulle did was to stop the talking, as he pointed out himself. It was over in September, 1962, but he did not put an end to it until February, 1963. There were six months of waffle of the most absurd kind, with Mr. Heath talking in Brussels, but no possibility of anything emerging from all the talks.

At that time I was one of the few people in this city who had any real conviction against entry into Europe. In fact, I was regarded by my colleagues in UCD as though I had two heads. Of course, most of them—like Deputy FitzGerald—knew French and perhaps the idea of using their French appealed to them. I see Deputy FitzGerald is smiling and I wonder if he would like to comment on this point? Is it not a fact that the Deputy knows French?

Deputy FitzGerald will make his own contribution in his own time.

Am I supposed to speak in French?

Since when was it a crime to speak French?

Deputy O'Donovan to resume without interruption, please.

In 1967 I maintained Britain would not enter the Common Market and, again, I was vindicated. In fact, I have been vindicated on two occasions. Why should I change my mind about this matter? It is assumed in this House that England is in Europe but we must wait and see. On that point, perhaps I might make the comment that five Unionists voted against Britain entering Europe when they knew that the British Government had a great majority. Quite obviously they got a certain promise from Mr. Heath when their votes were needed, when he would have been in a minority of two in the House of Commons if they had voted against him. In fact, the British Government had to get Sir Alec Douglas-Home back from the far corners of the world in order to vote on the crucial Bill. Our Government adopt a different approach. They do not want to do the job the British Parliament are doing —the prolonged job of piecemeal legislation. It is doubtful if the Government will succeed in this matter.

I am against entry into Europe for two reasons. The first reason is the amount of effort we have made since 1925 to establish light industries. I know that people talk about the inefficiency of our industry but I do not accept this. I have told the House already that I was never out of this country between 1935 and 1961—a period of 26 years—but in the last ten years I have visited every country in the Common Market. I have been to some countries many times, although I admit I have not been to Brussels as often as a well-known Deputy who visits the city once a month. It is strange that although I do not speak very much French I can understand the Belgians speaking French. I have the greatest difficulty in understanding the Parisians when they speak.

I am surprised the Deputy admits knowing that much French.

Our light industries will be destroyed if we enter the Common Market. We have been offered a period of five years for readjustment but in the life of the nation that time is equivalent to five minutes. This kind of undertaking is not worth the paper it is written on.

The Taoiseach said that by 1978 he would hope that we would have 50,000 additional jobs. However, I have a fear that our entire industry, into which so much effort has been put, will be destroyed. I remember when the first electric bulbs were made here. They were so badly made that they were crooked. Similarly, the first boots and shoes that were made here were scarcely wearable. Since we negotiated the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement our imports of boots and shoes from England went up from £300,000 in 1965 to £1½ million in 1970-71. Was that because British boots are superior to ours? Are Italian ladies' boots superior to ours? They are not. Human beings, especially women, like variety. Once our market is wide open, as it will be, to the various countries in Europe, the base on which our export industries has been founded will disappear. The home market, small as it is, so long as it was fully protected, and so long as we had it entirely to ourselves, provided that base, and we were able to export products in competition with other countries.

The Treaty of Rome provides that if any allegation of dumping is made by one country in the Common Market against another country in the Common Market, the country against whom the allegation is made has six months to reply. In one week this country could be deluged with stuff. There was something in the papers the other day about some article from Hong Kong. I remember when the Hong Kong shirts started percolating along southern Asia. They were sold at 6s each. The cheapest shirt that could be made here cost 13s. They percolated gradually through India, Persia, Asia Minor and when they reached Egypt one consignment of 400 dozen came into England. We never got a Hong Kong shirt in this country because a specific tariff was imposed against them. I think the figure was 8s or 9s a shirt which put them above the price of the cheapest shirt made here. It was as simple as that.

Are we to jettison this power we have to protect the employment of our people in industry? I will come to agriculture in a minute. I want to emphasise that today there are nearly as many people employed in industry as there are in agriculture. In a very short time, indeed, there will be more people employed in industry and services than in agriculture. This is the trend all over the world. There is no use in telling me that our agriculture will prosper and, therefore, everything will be all right because the money will be spent throughout the country and that kind of nonsense. To be quite frank about it, I think Fianna Fáil pushed ahead with some of our industries too rapidly at one stage. Be that as it may, it has been done now and I am not prepared to agree for one moment that the cloth, the clothes and the various light articles made in this country are inferior to those made in other countries.

Every time I went over to the Common Market countries I made it my business to spend a day looking at the shops in whatever city I was in. I saw that the Italians had scooped a great chunk of the market but then they had already scooped a great chunk of the American market so that was not peculiar to the Common Market. It was very noticeable that Italian goods were all over Western Europe following the coming into being of the EEC. This was trailed across our bows when we visited the EEC. A delegation from the Labour Party was invited over about a year and a half ago. We were told to look at how well Italy did in the Common Market. My answer to that was quite simple. I asked them how do you compare our small country with Italy which in the middle thirties had won the Schneider Trophy and which had the finest motor racing car in the world, and was the country in which radio telegraphy was developed.

This was in the Fascist period.

I was told this in Brussels by Signor Spinelli, the Italian Commissioner in Brussels. One of his companions said to me that Signor Spinelli spent years in prison under Mussolini. All I am saying is——

Fascism works and that is all that matters.

What I am saying is quite simple. Industrially, Italy is a very different country from this country.

Indeed, and especially in the thirties.

I do not know whether the Deputy's studies of economic history have made him aware that the Turin area was a developed industrial area in 1878, very nearly 100 years ago. Would the Deputy like to comment on that? It has nothing to do with Fascism which is not really germane to the EEC.

It is germane to the thirties.

Deputies should make their own speeches.

I am waiting to do that—impatiently.

The easiest way is to allow the Deputy in possession to speak without interruption.

That is the first reason and there is a second very serious reason. We were in a common market for 120 years, the finest in the world. There was no country to compare with Britain during the last century. Britain was first and the rest were nowhere. The small island next door to us built most of the railways in the world. We hear all the talk about the help which the United States have been giving to developing countries but they have not done one-tenth of what the British did in the last century. The British were too tough on their own people and they did it at the expense of their own unfortunate working classes. I had better get in ahead of Deputy FitzGerald in case he might say I am supporting the kind of capitalist system that existed in Britain in the last century. I see the Leas-Cheann Comhairle has reduced him to silence.

Temporarily.

That is an achievement.

The fact is that when we went into that common market of 1800 the population of this island was 5,000,000 and when we left it in 1920 the population of this island was 4,000,000. When we went into that common market the population of the island of Britain was 10,000,000 and when we left it in 1920 the population of Britain was 50,000,000. How did that happen? We were next door to Britain. There was absolutely free trade between the two countries. Labour was cheaper in this country than it was in England. As was said by Deputy Keating yesterday, there is a centrifugal force and the whole effort tends to go to the centre. Where is the centre of the Common Market? It is in the golden triangle and, if Britain goes in, the golden triangle will extend from Birmingham to Paris and over to Mannheim. All economic endeavour and effort will tend to be centred around that limited area. I know there is considerable doubt in Britain about going into the EEC but I am satisfied that south-east of a line drawn from Birmingham to Grimsby and down to Southampton will do extremely well.

The truth is that the French are afraid of the British in the Common Market. They know, and so do the Germans—but they want the British in for a different reason—that that particular area of England is the finest industrial area in the world. The only comparable area would be the Ruhr in Germany. That is the kind of organisation we are invited to join half-clad and we are really in no condition to do so, not because of inefficiency but because we are so small and our numbers so few. We are promised the moon. The attitude of the Taoiseach in winding up his speech yesterday had a very decided element of the béal bocht in it when he spoke of what would come to us if we go in. When he spoke about the new Europe he mentioned Schuman, Spaak, Adenauer and de Gasparri. He did not mention that great European, General de Gaulle at all; I take it that is because General de Gaulle kept Britain out of Europe according to the piece of folklore that was developed by the British popular Press and copied by the Irish newspapers.

I want to come to the position we took up in the negotiations. When I saw these negotiations begin and saw the attitude of our negotiating Minister, Dr. Hillery, I thought there was an agreement between Britain and this country that they would negotiate toughly and we would negotiate softly. This was conveyed to me in the strongest fashion by the way we behaved. I still do not know whether that was the case or not but I have my suspicions about it now and this was indicated by Deputy Flanagan a while ago, I think, perfectly correctly. I do not think—I believe Deputy Dr. Cruise-O'Brien said it this afternoon—our negotiations were conducted with necessary toughness. All this business about "we are anxious to go in", "we are delighted to accept all the obligations of membership" and all the kind of talk the Minister for Foreign Affairs indulged in at that time—it seems a long time ago now—left the impression in my mind of softness without genuine negotiating strength. We may be weak but not that weak.

The night before last I saw an interesting programme on one of the British television stations in which Sir Christopher Soames—he was formally Mr. Soames—the British Ambassador in Paris was quizzed as to why he thought Britain should go into Europe. It was suggested that he might be their representative in Brussels, their Mr. Europe. He parried that pretty skilfully. I made a few notes of what he said. He said there was one reason why Britain should go in and that was that Europe was grinding to a halt last year. Deputy Flanagan referred quite correctly to this: Europe was grinding to a halt last year and they themselves have been talking about it. When quizzed, Sir Christopher also said: "Our interests are much more in common than they were two, five or ten years ago". By that he meant that the interests of Britain and the Common Market had come much closer. I may be living on another planet but I was not aware of any change in the relations between Britain and Western Europe nor of any change in our relations with Western Europe. Finally, he said: "Our interests are coming together now." He had been a Conservative Minister at one time in Britain and he is, therefore, in favour of going into Europe.

Yesterday, the Taoiseach spoke about higher prices for all farmers large and small. It is being attempted to convey by inference or by semantics that if you are a small farmer you will gain just as much as the big fellow. Of course not; in fact, the big man will gain altogether more. As somebody said, the economic size for a farm in the Common Market will be 150 acres. Apart from anything else, if you are a small farmer you have very little to sell. There are all sorts of things in connection with this business that get under my skin. We were told for example at one stage that associate membership was not on. Now, it must be admitted that it was on all the time. We were told that lie and it is correct to say "lie". We were told that lie time and again, that associate membership was not on, that they would not have us, that they regarded us as equal to any of them and, therefore, would not give us an associate agreement. Now, it must be admitted that this was quite inaccurate.

Let me read something else that we were not told but are now told in the White Paper summary:

Agriculture.

Phasing into Higher Prices.

The prices which Irish farmers get for their main products will be raised to the higher Community level in six stages. The first raise equal to one-sixth of the difference between Irish and EEC prices—will be made in 1973...

That is next year. What at present is the difference in the price of cattle between this country or Britain and the EEC? I do not have so much connection now with agriculture or that much interest that I could keep a close eye on it but I am sure there is nobody in this House who would not know what a dropped calf is. Let me put it this way: I am sure that even the gentlemen over in Iveagh House, although I have doubts about some of them, would know what a dropped calf is. I am told a dropped calf is at present making £50.

Twice that. A dropped calf made £89 at Schull mart a fortnight ago.

It must be a fatted calf.

Let the Deputy talk figures. I will talk facts. I speak the truth. You would not be allowed to look at one for £50.

I am grateful to Deputy Coughlan. We have brought the debate to life. A good white-head calf will make a minimum of £50, let us put it that way. Only one-sixth of the difference will be given. We are told of a 50 per cent increase in the price of beef. That may have been the case 12 months ago.

The Deputy was not told that.

We were. I am not saying that it was the Minister for Labour who told us so.

You were told that the ruling prices were 50 per cent higher now. The Deputy is talking about phased-in prices.

Is the Minister telling me that as of now the price of cattle is 50 per cent higher in the Common Market than it is in Ireland?

As Deputy Keating told us yesterday, they have gone up in anticipation of our joining.

Deputy FitzGerald never thinks about anything for long enough. He always has the quick, slick answer.

His remarks misfire as often as not.

My attitude towards the Deputy is the same as that of a lawman of the old West who lived to be a ripe old age. Late in his life he shot dead a fellow who shot at him from a moving car. When this old man was questioned he said: "I did not mind the other fellow having the first shot." Deputy FitzGerald can have the first shot. I give much thought to what I say and I do not jump from one matter to another as the Deputy does. I am not saying that this increase in price is or is not in anticipation of our going into the Common Market. What about the 10 cwt. cattle that are now making £140 each on the Dublin market? Is that in anticipation of our joining the Common Market? Surely they are to be killed immediately?

The explanation is a long and complex one.

The truth of the matter is that the Deputy knows sweet nothing about agriculture. He knows less about cattle than I know about French and that is very little.

That is a very interesting comparison.

One seems to be open to abuse to know French.

The number of people who know French well in this country is not very great. I do not know how good Deputy Dockrell's French is but I would not say that it is as good as Deputy FitzGerald's, for example.

The Deputy could be wrong.

I am not wrong on this issue.

This may be very interesting but I would ask Deputy O'Donovan to deal with the motion before the House.

The one-sixth to which I have referred will be paid in 1973 we are told and the final one in 1977. At the same time we are told when our prices will increase, one-sixth of the difference is all the farmers will get. Farmers have been told they will get an extra £30 million that will be saved by way of price supports and export subsidies. They have been given the impression that the small man will get nearly as much as the one with 1,000 acres. Of course this is a myth.

We are promised a full voice in the decisions of the Community. When I think of the big countries in the Common Market I think immediately of bilateral agreements. Such agreements are interesting because they are always due for renewal within a year or two. The big countries of France and Germany used wipe out our rights as if they did not exist. I could give numerous examples, starting with the occasion when the late Mr. Seán Lemass was attempting to start an oil refinery at Alexandra Basin. It would have been the first in Europe and was one of the best of Mr. Lemass's ideas but the world oil cartel wiped it out and wiped out also the man who attempted to do the job, Burgess of London. The idea has been mooted in every country in western Europe since.

Another example was one quoted here recently. It was that the Germans said that any lamb of 36 lbs. in weight was not lamb at all. Under our present bilateral trade agreement with them they were not prepared to take it. Surely a lamb that would not weigh more than 36 lbs. would not be worth selling but should be left with its mother.

To get back to the story of the oil refinery. We ordered four tankers at that time from Germany at £750,000 each. On account of the economic dispute with Britain then we were buying three times as much from Germany as they were buying from us but what did they say regarding these tankers? They said they were ordered through London and that, therefore, we were not entitled to get any credit for building. What happened was that when the war broke out the tankers were put on the English register and the Germans sank them. If we had had them during the war years conditions for us would have been different. We could have kept them instead of having to accept the word of the British that they would supply us with whatever shipping we required. Of course, they did until the German "wolfpack" attitude started in relation to submarines. No country will give another any help if she is in trouble herself. Anybody who thinks that we will get £30 million or £40 million per year out of the Common Market for agriculture is a low grade idiot.

Was it not said in the House?

I am not referring to anyone here but if the cap should fit anyone, let him wear it. A Minister said to me the other day that I am the only person who has any real conviction about the Common Market. I do not know whether this is true.

What about Deputy Oliver Flanagan?

He indicated that tonight. I hope that there are numerous people in the House who are suspicious of this attempt to rustle us into the Common Market. The Taoiseach has said that the whole purpose of this exercise is to ensure a standard of living for our people at a level appropriate to the Community average. I do not know what is the Community average. In 1961 I stayed next door to what was then the only skyscraper in Brussels, the Martini, but if one goes to Brussels now he will find many skyscrapers there. Of course this hotel is right in the centre of the city. It was like living next door to Nelson Pillar when it was there. I was awakened at 3.30 in the morning with the traffic starting to move. At the moment I am living on almost a main road. What time does the traffic start to move here? At 8.30 in the morning. As my son said to me, you could nearly set your watch by it.

The Minister's constituents get up in time to sign on for the dole.

I have been in many an Irish country town and if you expect any shop to be open before 10 o'clock in the morning you are an idiot. As between the traffic starting to move at 3.30 in the morning and 8.30 in the morning, I am all for the traffic starting to move at 8.30.

Listening to the Taoiseach's speech yesterday I got the impression that it was simplistic in its approach to this whole matter. It was like a schoolboy exercise. There was one thing in it that had a certain type of maturity about it; it was the mental gymnastics. These mental gymnastics originally appeared when the yellow pamphlet which I am sure Deputy FitzGerald has was published. Employment in Industry I think it was called and it was produced by the Department of Foreign Affairs. Within two pages it has one of the most extraordinary contradictions. First of all, it said that we would have untold opportunities for our industries in the 250-million market and two pages later it said our industries would not meet any real competition from the Common Market. We were going to have untold opportunities and at the same time we were not going to be pressurised at all. I hope the House will forgive me for being irritated at that kind of thing being foisted on us as serious thought.

Deputy Oliver Flanagan raised an extremely serious point when he referred to the view that is now coming to be accepted in the Common Market that there should not be larger family allowances for large families. The Minister knows—I have spoken to him once or twice privately about it—that I am of the view that there should be no children's allowances at all for the first couple of children and certainly not for the first child, and that once there are more than four children in the family the allowances should increase substantially so as to give the unfortunate parents, if they are ordinary workers, a chance to bring up their families decently.

The Deputy voted for the contraceptive Bill.

He did not do any such thing. Do not misrepresent the Deputy.

I voted for a Bill to repeal section 17 of the Criminal Law (Amendment) Act, 1935, and I was right. I know what I would do to the people who put that into law in this country. Where the advice came from to do that I do not know, but strangely enough it was suggested in the House it had something to do with the Constitution. It has nothing to do with the Constitution.

We are getting away from the debate.

I appreciate that, but the Minister attracted me.

Distracted him, the Deputy means.

He attracted my attention. I am horrified at the way small children are treated in this country. At least some of the Common Market countries, France and Italy particularly, have a proper sense of how large families should be looked after. What Deputy Oliver Flanagan talked about as being suggested by Dr. Mansholt is contrary to ordinary Christian charity, to ordinary human decency. There is always a great deal of talk of how old age pensions should be improved and so on. It is my experience that anybody who lives to be over 70 years of age is pretty tough and is well able to talk up for himself. Small children cannot say one word on their own behalf. Things have improved in the country compared with what they were 50 years ago when boys and girls went barefoot to school. The Minister will remember that as well as I do. Deputy Oliver Flanagan suggested, and rightly so, that Mr. James Dillon had a lot to do with the introduction of family allowances. It was not because of Mr. James Dillon's interest in large families, but because the low wages order was in operation during the war, and it was to enable the unfortunate children of those people to live at all that this half-crown a week was given.

Mr. Seán MacEntee's five bob.

I believe that was the reason why Mr. Dillon kept after the Government in regard to family allowances. I believe in giving the former Deputy Dillon full credit for that anyway, much as I disagree with him on other things. There is no use in the Government pretending that they behaved as a Government should in this matter of the EEC. They have taken an absolutely one-sided view of it. They have behaved like a low-grade political party. They even provided £10,000 for the Fine Gael Party for the Council of Europe, because the Fine Gael Party were supporting them on this matter of Europe.

Debate adjourned.
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