Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Mar 1972

Vol. 259 No. 14

Adjournment Debate. - Gardaí in Border Areas.

Mr. Fox

I want to preface my remarks here tonight by quoting an extract from a speech made by Mr. Peadar O'Donnell at a Fianna Fáil victory rally in College Green, Dublin, in January, 1932: He said:

The policeman who puts his head between the head of Mr. Cosgrave and the heads of angry Irishmen would be well advised to keep his head at home.

No doubt, a Cheann Comhairle, you are familiar with this quotation. I strongly suspect the same attitude prevails today in the minds of some Fianna Fáil Deputies and Ministers in relation to members of the Garda Síochána. Do the Government and the Minister for Justice, I wonder, appreciate the efforts being made by the gardaí, especially in Border areas, to supply them with on-the-spot reports of British Army aggression.

Now, my reason for endeavouring to put down this question as a Special Notice Question today was because I was on the spot on Sunday last and I saw the conditions under which the members of the Garda Síochána were forced by the Government to act. They were without proper equipment. It was not until yesterday evening that I knew they were acting without this proper equipment because the Government had failed to supply them with it. I know full well that they will be called on to act again under the same, or maybe worse, conditions next Sunday. Since tomorrow is the last day of the parliamentary session I had no alternative but to try to table my question today in the form of a Special Notice Question. I did not mind if the question was taken in the normal way tomorrow, but I was told by you, Sir, that this question was ruled out for Special Notice and that it would not be taken as an ordinary question tomorrow. It is for this reason that I take exception to your remarks here today, a Cheann Comhairle, in describing my question as "a typical Deputy Fox mischievous question". I certainly take exception to that phrase and to the use of those terms.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should relate his remarks to the matter before the House.

Mr. Fox

I will relate my remarks to the matter before the House, but these remarks were made here today about me in relation to this question and, as far as I am concerned, I will now put the record straight.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not proceed along those lines. I gave permission to the Deputy to raise this matter of gas grenades used by the British authorities entering this State. There is nothing else relevant. My remarks are not relevant and, if the Deputy wishes to raise these remarks, he can do so in another manner.

Mr. Harte

Surely the Deputy is entitled to say why he is raising this matter on the Adjournment?

An Ceann Comhairle

He did; he has already said that.

Mr. Harte

Surely he should be allowed to explain why.

An Ceann Comhairle

No. The Deputy, I take it, wants to relate his remarks to the smoke grenades fired into the State by the British Forces.

Dr. FitzGerald

He is entitled to say, surely, that he is not mischievous in raising the matter.

Mr. Fox

I thank you, Sir, for giving me the opportunity of raising this question even at this late hour, but I am not happy with your suggestion that this is a mischievous question and it is for this reason that I am now pointing out the reason why the question came up in the form in which it did. There were a few references of yours today which are very relevant to this motion on the Adjournment. You told me today that you had ruled the question out of order; it was not a matter for you; you had nothing further to say on Deputy Fox's question; you had no objection, you said then, to the question being raised tomorrow, if the Deputy were willing; and you said it was not an urgent question.

Minister for Justice (Mr. O'Malley)

On a point of order, I wonder if I might inquire if the debate is on your ruling or on the particular question?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes. I understood Deputy Fox wished to raise this matter of gas grenades and smoke bombs fired into the State by the British Forces.

Mr. Harte

No.

An Ceann Comhairle

Just a moment. I said the Deputy has taken the opportunity to criticise the Chair's ruling and the Chair's remarks, which are not relevant.

Mr. Harte

For the record, he is not making that point. He is making the case for more protective clothing and other equipment for gardaí.

An Ceann Comhairle

He has not mentioned that. So far he has dealt with the Chair's ruling and the Chair's remarks.

Dr. FitzGerald

It looks as if he is not getting any opportunity.

An Ceann Comhairle

He is getting every opportunity. He has not mentioned the question of gas.

Mr. Harte

At least he is entitled in the 20 minutes allowed to make his case.

Minister for Transport and Power (Mr. B. Lenihan)

He is making gas all right.

Mr. Fox

There have been casualties among the Garda Síochána from excessive exposure to CS gas grenades and smoke grenades fired into the State by British Forces at places at which the gardaí have been detailed for duty on the Border and I would ask that, as a matter of urgency, gas masks and other protective clothing be made available to the gardaí to obviate further casualties. That is the question I tabled, Sir, and that is the question you ruled out under Standing Order No. 33 and then, for some reason best known to yourself, you decided that it would be in order to take it tonight.

I want to point out now something of which I am sure, and many people, including members of the Garda Síochána in the Border areas, strongly suspect; and that is that the Minister for Justice is not fully aware of the situation, particularly along cratered roads. I want to ask the Minister now is he happy with a situation in which members of the Garda Síochána are sent out to maintain a borderline and British soldiers come down and fire CS gas and smoke grenades in front of them and behind them? Does he really expect them to remain there without any protective equipment? Is there any Member of this House who could feel happy about that situation? Some Members sitting opposite me have been passing sarcastic remarks. I would remind them that in this particular instance it is against the members of our security forces that these remarks are really being directed, not against me.

I would like the Minister to tell us what he proposes to do about this situation. I would like him to give the House his views on this matter, particularly in regard to specific requests from Garda stations which are handling this situation along the Border for certain types of protective respirators and steel helmets.

I should like to know from the Minister why this equipment has not been made available before now to the gardaí detailed for this duty. Is the Minister aware, I wonder, that members of the Garda Síochána in Monaghan are still not fit for duty as a result of last Sunday's episode? I await the Minister's reply. Does he, I wonder, really know what is going on? Is he aware that members of the National Army have been supplied with this particular type of equipment though they have not had occasion to use it very often?

Minister for Defence (Mr. Cronin)

What has this got to do with the National Army?

An Ceann Comhairle

The question relates to the Garda, not to the Army.

Mr. Fox

I quite understand. I am saying that this equipment has been supplied to the Army who are not on the spot among the smoke as members of the Garda are. I am not objecting to the Army being supplied, I think it is only correct that they are and I congratulate the Minister on supplying them with this modern type of equipment. I think it is a reflection on the Minister for Justice that he is not supplying the people for whom he is responsible with the same type of protective equipment with which the Minister for Defence has seen fit to supply his men.

I want to know, when the Minister replies here tonight, whether he proposes to have members of the Garda who will be detailed for duty along the Border in County Monaghan, and for that matter along any section of the Border, supplied with respirators and steel helmets for duty on Sunday or whenever the need arises from this weekend onwards.

I can assure the Ceann Comhairle and the Minister, as a representative of that area, as a representative of a constituency in which at the present time there is a large force of gardaí, that I will not be prepared to accept any long-term promises. I think this is a problem which must be dealt with now and these are articles which must be supplied to members of the gardaí this week and not any later.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I, as spokesman on Justice for this party, would like to avail of a few moments to intervene in this Adjournment debate. At present members of the Garda Síochána, due to the disturbances in our country, are being called upon to discharge difficult duties, duties indeed for which an unarmed force were never intended. I should like to support Deputy Fox's plea that members of the force should be supplied with protective uniform when being sent on these duties. I must confess that I have not the intimate knowledge that Deputy Fox has of the happenings on the Border because, fortunately, my constituency is not as deeply involved in these exercises as is Deputy Fox's but, as I told the Minister in this House on a previous occasion, I did see on television the destruction of the British Embassy. I think it is an appalling reflection on those in charge of the Garda Síochána that on that occasion they were not supplied with helmets, with crash barriers——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not enlarge on the subject. The question deals with gas being fired by the British forces over the Border.

Mr. Harte

It does not deal with that.

Dr. FitzGerald

Protection for the Garda.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I am not going unduly to enlarge on the debate, I assure you of that. I never do. I appreciate the rules of order. I am drawing the attention of the House to the fact that on similar occasions the Garda Síochána have been sent in in a hopelessly unprotected condition to discharge dangerous duties and I think that that should be remedied as from now on. The Minister for Justice should realise the fact that due to the position arising out of the disturbances in Northern Ireland, arising out of the rising up of the people in Northern Ireland to claim justice, it is likely that the Garda Síochána will be called upon here to discharge functions that are not appropriate to an unarmed police force. I do not want the police force to be armed, let me say that immediately, but I do want the police force to be protected. I do want them to be supplied with the ordinary essentials such as helmets to protect their skulls from missiles. I do want them to be supplied with gas masks if they are being detailed for Border duty because experience has shown in the recent and not so recent past that they are likely to have to deal with CS gas. I think the Minister for Justice and those under him should foresee this. When members of the Garda Síochána—our unarmed police force, who have distinguished themselves over the last 50 years in a manner that must be unique amongst the unarmed police forces of the world—are being sent on Border duty, where they are likely to be met with bullets, where they are known to be met with this type of gas both from the air and from across the Border, those gardaí should be protected, should be given these ordinary essentials.

I think Deputy Fox was quite correct in raising this matter in the House today as one of urgency, as one that could not afford to await the adjournment of this House and its reassembly some time in the middle of next month. It was suggested to him that he should take his chance on the Order Paper tomorrow. Everybody knows that there are between 90 and 100 questions to be dealt with tomorrow and that it is unlikely that this question would be dealt with. Deputy Fox represents a Border constituency, a constituency in which there is very strong feeling among all creeds and classes. I think he was doing no more than his duty as a public representative in raising this question here today. If, in raising it, he succeeds in bringing home to the Minister for Justice and, through him, to the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána, the necessity for providing members of the force with protective—I want to emphasise the word "protective-"—equipment, protective gear, protective clothing, when embarking on this dangerous type of duty which they are called upon to discharge, then I think that Deputy Fox will have performed a national duty and a very serious national duty.

Minister for Justice (Mr. O'Malley)

One is always glad to see a conversion from views that were previously held and this is indeed very striking in the case of Deputy Fox who is now loquacious on the matter of Border incidents.

Mr. Harte

A Cheann Comhairle, the Minister is not very clear in his remarks. Would he repeat them?

Mr. O'Malley

I said that one is always very glad to see a conversion from views previously held and this is very striking in the case of Deputy Fox——

Mr. Harte

That is a scandalous statement from the Minister.

Mr. Coughlan

The Minister did a few changes himself.

Mr. O'Malley

——whose views on certain matters on the Border are different from those he previously held.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comharile

The Minister has ten minutes in which to reply.

Minister for Transport and Power (Mr. B. Lenihan)

If the cap fits wear it.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Would the Minister clarify his remarks?

(Interruptions.)

Mr. O'Malley

No doubt Deputy Fox has need to be ashamed of his previous views.

Mr. Cott

On a point of order, the Minister was very quick a few moments ago to call the attention of the Chair to a digression on the part of Deputy Fox. May I point out to the Chair that the Minister is digressing from the question?

Mr. B. Lenihan

If the cap fits, wear it.

Dr. FitzGerald

Ask him to explain what he meant by that?

Mr. Fox

I want the Minister to clarify his opening remark. I will take no sarcasm from the Minister.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Mr. Boland made the same disgusting remark and he apologised.

Mr. Fox

I will take no sarcasm from the Minister. Outside if you want anything.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister has less than ten minutes in which to reply to Deputy Fox.

Mr. Fox

I want the Minister to clarify his opening remarks.

Mr. B. Lenihan

None of those tactics here. B Specials.

Deputies

Slanderer.

Mr. Cooney

Sectarian slanderer.

Mr. Harte

The Minister was lucky that he was not caught out two years ago.

Mr. O'Malley

The Garda Síochána have authority to purchase from time to time such protective equipment as they consider necessary or useful. I am not prepared to disclose what protective equipment they have in stock or on order but it is what they regard as sufficient.

Dr. FitzGerald

The Minister should clarify a remark against a Member of the House.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): On a point of order, I want to say that the Minister introduced his reply by a veiled disgusting repeated threat on the character of Deputy Fox and he should be either a man or a mouse and he should clarify it or withdraw it.

Mr. Harte

On a point of order. In protection of Deputy Fox, you should be equally manly in asking the Minister to clarify.

Dr. FitzGerald

It is your job.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): The Minister is smaller than I thought he was. Mr. Boland made the same accusation——

An Ceann Comhairle

This is organised opposition. They do not want to listen to the Minister. This is organised. Mob law.

Mr. O'Malley

I made no accusation.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): You know perfectly well that you did.

Mr. O'Malley

Fine Gael seem to be very touchy.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Mr. Boland made the same revolting accusation but he was man enough to withdraw.

Mr. O'Malley

There may be a lot of guilty consciences.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): You are a lot smaller than I thought you were.

Dr. FitzGerald

Withdraw. The Chair should ask the Minister to withdraw the remark.

An Ceann Comhairle

I did not hear the remark. I heard nothing that was out of order.

Mr. Harte

I repeat, Sir, that such remarks are unbecoming a Minister for Justice and you should recognise that.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): The Minister for Justice is a sectarian scut.

An Ceann Comhairle

Would Deputy Fitzpatrick please remain in his seat?

Mr. B. Lenihan

Are the Fine Gael Party entitled to be in this House?

Mr. Harte

An insult was offered to that man.

An Ceann Comhairle

No insult was offered to Deputy Fox.

Deputies

Yes there was.

Dr. FitzGerald

A bigoted remark.

Mr. B. Lenihan

B. Special Republican.

Mr. Cooney

On a point of order, the Minister for Transport and Power has accused a Member of this House of being a B. Special.

Mr. Harte

Might the Minister for Transport and Power repeat what he said or withdraw what we thought he said?

Mr. O'Malley

Five minutes of my time seem to be up.

Mr. Coughlan

That is what you want.

Mr. Harte

Disgraceful.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Sectarian scut.

Dr. FitzGerald

The one decent person over there should do something with that man.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): The former Deputy Boland was man enough to withdraw a bigoted statement of that kind.

Mr. O'Malley

I made no reference good, bad or indifferent, to religion, from start to finish.

Mr. Fox

I am not ashamed to be a Protestant.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

There was no reference made to Protestants.

Mr. Fox

If the Minister does not withdraw, I will bring the matter up again.

Mr. Harte

You know it and so does the Ceann Comhairle. You are not fit to be Minister for Justice and he is not fit to be in the Chair.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): The former Deputy Boland was man enough to withdraw.

Mr. O'Malley

I made no reference to religion.

Mr. Fox

You did and I will raise it in the House tomorrow until you withdraw or the House adjourns. I am not ashamed to be a Protestant.

Dr. FitzGerald

Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

I should like to point out that if this organised opposition does not stop, I will adjourn the House.

Mr. Harte

That is another disgusting remark.

Dr. FitzGerald

On a point of order, it is a pity that this has taken this course but if you ask the Minister to withdraw the remark we will get on with the business. It is your failure to do that——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): The Minister for Transport and Power, Deputy Lenihan, called Deputy Fox a B Special.

Mr. Forde

What did you call the Minister?

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): A sectarian scut.

Mr. Forde

May I ask the Deputy to withdraw that?

Mr. Harte

On a point of order, we all realise——

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Minister be allowed to reply?

Mr. Harte

——that this was not the point of the discussion but we do take exception to the inference of the Minister for Justice. If the Minister for Justice wishes to withdraw that inference and let us discuss this intelligently, he may be manly enough to do so.

Mr. O'Malley

I made no inference whatever relating to religion.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Of course, you did.

Mr. O'Malley

I made an inference relating to political beliefs but none whatsoever relating to the subject of religion.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. B. Lenihan

Will you behave yourselves? Behave yourselves. You are not entitled to be in a free Parliament.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): You are a disgrace to the Irish nation.

Dr. FitzGerald

If the Tánaiste were here, you would not have said it.

Mr. Fox

If the Minister does not clarify the remark——

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the Deputy allow the Minister to continue?

Mr. Fox

——will the Chair tell me what the Minister for Justice meant?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not a matter for the Chair to tell the Deputy what the Minister meant.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

I will adjourn the House.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): It is time you did.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.58 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 23rd March, 1972.