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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 18 Apr 1972

Vol. 260 No. 3

Supply for Department of Foreign Affairs : Motion.

I move:

That, in connection with the supply granted for the years ended 31st March, 1971, and 31st March, 1972, the Dáil takes note of the activities of the Department of Foreign Affairs.

This motion has been put down in order to give the Dáil an opportunity of debating the affairs of my Department since it did not prove possible to debate, at the time when they were taken, the Estimates for which I am responsible. It has over the years been customary to catalogue and list in detail my Department's activities and I feel that in this way we sometimes pass over too quickly some general considerations in regard to our position as a nation in the world.

We are, however, living through a time at present which forces us more and more to face basic issues. We are considering the very basis and origin of our State and considering in a very fundamental way our relations with neighbouring countries.

I believe, therefore, that I should speak on this motion in broader terms than in the usual Estimates debate and consider the more basic issues in our foreign relations. Three issues—the assertion of its identity, the recognition of that identity by others, and the promotion and development of exchanges with other nations—are basic aspects of any country's relations with the world. In our case because each has been emphasised at a particular stage in our history as a State they have been, in a sense, the major issues in our foreign relations. They cannot in themselves be described as our "foreign policy". They indicate rather the general aim and direction of our foreign relations.

It is well, I think, to recognise that the foreign policy properly so called of an Irish Government at any particular time is not a single attitude or a simply stated principle or slogan. It is the sum of a whole series of actions and decisions at Government level in a wide variety of exchanges—political, trade and economic, social and cultural. These exchanges take place with a variety of other nations and they vary widely in their importance to us.

Because our relation to the world is not a single attitude but a network of contacts of every kind, we do not, for the most part, make great sweeping decisions on foreign policy in the abstract and then look to see if and how we will implement them. Our decisions and actions are generally individual and concrete, related to specific issues. We do give some overall policy direction to our foreign relations. But for a small country like ours, the role of Government is not to try to impose a grand "foreign policy design". It is rather to steer and develop our many existing contacts in accordance with some general ideas of what we stand for and what we want to achieve.

In such decisions, no Government is wholly free in regard to the policies it chooses to follow. It is limited, on the one hand because no Government can, or would want to, act against the general attitudes, and beliefs of their people; and on the other hand, because any Government must take account of its geographic, economic and political situation in the world. Both set limits to what we can do. We do not live or act in a vaccum. We have a range of choice but like every other country—particularly every other small country—what we are really free to do is subject to limitations and constraints.

If we accept these two points—that our policies cannot be a single grand design and that our freedom to act has certain limits—we still have a considerable area of choice in foreign affairs. Beyond the basic issues of asserting our identity as a nation and having this recognised by others, there are other general principles which we must follow in developing our relations with the world.

There are three factors which we take into account in our dealings with other countries: one, direct national interest; two, a feeling of concern for common or community interests among nations; three, a due regard for certain values, attitudes and concerns which are basic to our society and culture, and by which our people would wish us to act.

Any Irish Government must try to act in their country's own national interest. There is nothing wrong in this and we should not hesitate to accept it as other nations do as a basic principle. It is the duty of Government to concern itself with the welfare of its own society and a people, however highminded their judgments in the abstract, or where distant problems are concerned, still judge issues largely in terms of national interest wherever this is deeply involved.

But I would like to make one important qualification. This is the second factor which we take into account. We simply cannot define our interest any longer in purely selfish terms. It is not merely that we should not do so; we cannot do so—because the world is such that a purely selfish concern does not serve our real interests. We need a sense of common interest—if you like, a sense of community—in international relations in our own long-term interests. It is the business of an enlightened Government approach to foreign affairs to accept this and see that it is more widely understood. The need becomes obvious on reflection.

In every area affecting our interests abroad, a realistic view will show that our people's welfare is directly dependent on how far relations of justice and order exist in the world with which we are dealing.

To speak of "justice" and "order" is not simply to talk of highminded ideals but of very necessary conditions for the well-being of our own society. We cannot trade with benefit in a world which does not have a substantial degree of order and equity in trade relations. We cannot deal with advantage in other economic exchanges in a world where each nation adopts narrow and unfairly restrictive policies. And we cannot survive at all as a nation if justice and order and peace in international political relations are not reasonably secure. Even self-interest therefore requires us to encourage and to contribute, if we can, to a degree of a community between nations in all of these areas. For this reason I consider a concern for community interest to be a second essential factor in our foreign policy decisions.

So far I have spoken of "interest" and "advantage".

I thought the Minister was talking about community. He repeated the word "community" time and time again.

Is there anything wrong in that?

I do not see anything wrong with it. I am merely telling the Minister that he repeated the word "community" over and over again——

The Minister should be allowed to make his statement. The Deputy will get an opportunity of speaking later.

With respect, Sir, the Minister has said, "So far I have spoken of "interest" and "advantage". On the contrary, the Minister has spoken continuously of "community"——

With a small "c".

I had hoped to impress on the Deputies—I presume the others got it—that our interest lay not alone in direct national interests but also in community interests.

We have no doubt whatever what the Minister was at. I will not interrupt again.

The Deputy is, in fact, interrupting me now.

I will not interrupt again.

But there is a third factor which we must also take into account. If it is unrealistic to ignore our interests it would also be unrealistic to speak only of interests and not to recognise that other, less pragmatic, motives also move us. As a people we have certain fairly clear concepts of right and wrong in human relations. We believe that these values should apply to dealings between nations as well as between individuals. We owe these moral values largely to basic religious beliefs which permeate our culture. But we also have certain distinctive attitudes and sympathies which are shaped by our view of our own history—among them a strong fellow-feeling for any people who struggle to maintain their identity against greater force. As a people we always felt, during our own troubled history, that when and if we attained to independence ourselves, we would try to bring these values and sympathies to our dealings with other nations.

It is easy to be pretentious about this. We must not deceive ourselves or exaggerate. As a nation we are not necessarily more moral than others where our own direct interests are involved. Nor does our own historical experience necessarily make us more compassionate than others, where compassion requires more than mere sympathy. But it would also be wrong to neglect these motives and to take an entirely pragmatic approach to our foreign relations. These values and concerns are not necessarily well served by talking about them often and self-consciously. They are real to us. They do play a part in our decisions; and, even where they are not our primary motivation, they do give us a healthy distrust of policies based entirely on power—the so-called Realpolitik— which so often proves mistaken in its neglect of the spirit and values of a people.

I have pointed to three factors which a realistic view of our foreign relations must take into account. In every one of the many issues which make up our foreign relations, our decisions will emerge from some combination of these three factors; and no Irish Government can conduct their foreign relations without giving due regard to each. In my view, therefore, any account of our foreign policies which does not deal with each, is either too narrow and pragmatic, or too rhetorical and unrealistic.

There is sometimes debate as to whether foreign policy matters should be decided by reference to abstract moral principles, on the one hand, or national interest, on the other, as if the latter were a purely selfish interest. In my view, the antithesis is a false one. The welfare of one's fellowmen is involved in what serves the national interest as well as in dealings with other nations. True morality in international relations, therefore, cannot be something abstract and wholly disinterested. It consists precisely in trying to give due weight to, and achieve proper balance between, the three factors to which I referred.

Although our international relations must take account of all three factors, there are some issues where we have little option as to the weight to be given to each. In many areas, however, we do have a choice. We can decide which will predominate—immediate national interest as against common interest; more idealistic values as against interests of either kind. And it is in these areas that limited but real foreign policy choices are open to any Government.

I would make one further point which I consider of great importance. We are a democracy and a small and intimate one. The Government can guide and lead on these issues and must at times take courageous decisions. But in the long run neither the Government, nor anyone in my place as Minister for Foreign Affairs, can or should go too far ahead of public opinion in our society, since we do not act in our own name but in that of the society. We must do what we think right, but we are dependent ultimately on public sanction and support for what we do.

If, therefore, the public wishes us on any issue to give greater weight to the moral values to which it holds, as against its immediate interests, then it is right for public opinion to make this concern clear through its articulate spokesmen—individuals, organisations of various kinds, churches and, not least, Opposition spokesmen here in the Dáil. I do not say that the Government, or the Minister for Foreign Affairs, can abdicate our duty to lead or to do what we think right, but foreign policies without public support will not have real and lasting effect. And our role in the world in the long run should reflect the values to which our society is really committed.

How in practice do we carry these principles into effect? Like most small countries we are not equally involved with every country or with every world issue. In a sense, our relations with the world are a series of concentric circles of interest. Those closest are usually, but not always, of greatest concern. Importance is not always determined by geography or economic or power relations alone. Sometimes less tangible factors such as concern or compassion will involve even a small country like ours in an otherwise distant issue.

Within the first circle of interest, however, must always be our relations with our nearest, powerful neighbour Britain. The question of our relations with Britain is almost too large and too vital to be considered as one among many. In a sense, it involves the whole of our history, the whole of our effort to assert ourselves as a nation and find our national identity. The long relationship of self-assertion in opposition to assimilation and domination, has deeply involved our two peoples with one another—economically, socially, by mutual migrations and intermarriage; and by similarity of political institutions.

The tragedy is that one major problem remains between our two countries, preventing a healthier relationship from developing, and breeding misunderstanding and at times ill-feeling. I refer, of course, to the Northern question. The events of the past three and a half years, and of the past year in particular, have given us all pause, but the night is long that never finds the day. We must believe that light is, at last, beginning to appear.

The policy of the Government on the North is, of course, primarily a matter for the Taoiseach. I deal with it here only in so far as it directly affects our relations with another Government. The effect on that relationship is close and immediate, and we have constantly tried in the interests of peace and justice and the general wellbeing of the two islands, to influence the British Government and people in regard to policies pursued by them, or in their name, in Northern Ireland.

We have debated the North at length in the Dáil in recent months and I have frequently made plain my own views on what was happening there. I reiterated those views in forthright terms during my recent visits to North America and Europe following the killings in Derry. A forthright approach was warranted by the events. My sole purpose was to try to bring home, both directly and through countries friendly to both of us, that the policies then being pursued in the North are simply not solving problems with which they were supposed to deal. I should like to make it clear that on my visits to foreign countries I did not at any stage seek help against Britain. What I asked for was that those countries which had good relations with both Britain and ourselves should quietly make their concern known.

I was satisfied from the contacts I made that many governments who are well disposed to both our countries, were deeply concerned about the whole problem of the North. It was not expected that they should intervene publicly and directly, but the feelings of deep concern which I know that many of them had were not, I feel, without influence.

All of us, I think, would wish our relations with our near neighbour to be warm and friendly, as is natural between two countries who have been closely linked in so many ways. The initiative taken by the British Government a few weeks ago is a step forward in seeking a lasting solution to the remaining problem in this historic relationship.

There is freedom of movement and constant traffic between us. There have been for many years exchanges, contacts and consultations at every level of Government and throughout our social and political institutions. Britain is, and is likely to remain in the immediate future—even in the EEC—our most important supplier, our most important customer and our most important source of tourism and investment.

We are Britain's third most important customer after the United States and Germany. We are more important to her as a market even than France which has 16 times our population. And we are now likely to go into the European Communities together.

It is a pity then that the problem of the fears and loyalties of the Unionist population of the North should come between us for so long. There must surely be some better way of settling the old issues of relations between the people of these two islands, and some better way of meeting all the legitimate fears and concerns of the Unionist community. Fifty years have, after all, taught us something—about the folly of trying to meet those fears in a way which brought separation and instability and also about the naturally easy and friendly relations which can exist between the peoples of the two islands when such relations are not subject to any constraints. A solution reflecting the broader and more comprehensive national identity is, I believe, the only way to bring peace to Ireland.

As regards this first most vital circle of interest for our foreign relations, such a settlement would meet all three of the concerns to which I have referred. It would serve our national interest—not in a narrow sense but by bringing peace and stability at last to our island; it would serve our community of interest with Britain which is, and should be, real and close; and it would, I believe, promote values which are shared by Irish people of every tradition at their best and most generous.

I should like next to move to a second and wider circle of interests for us which is now about to become of prime importance. As the Dáil is aware, the Treaty of Accession to the European Communities was signed in Brussels on 22nd January, 1972. Since then, both Houses of the Oireachtas have passed a Bill for the amendment of the Constitution, and we have debated the White Paper which sets out the terms agreed for our accession. Subject to the people's decision by referendum we are about to join the new enlarged Communities and I think in this review of our foreign relations I should set out again in broad terms our reasons for doing so.

Our decision to apply for membership was taken ten years ago, and the application has been maintained since then despite disappointments. It is one of our most important single foreign policy decisions, certainly since the last war, and, perhaps, since the founding of the State. It was also a decision which, unlike many others, offered us a clear and definite choice when it was made. The Government in reaching their decision took explicit account of each of the three factors governing foreign policy to which I have referred; so that an account of our reasons for joining which omits any one of them is incomplete.

In the first place we are joining the Community because the Government believe that it is in our direct interest to do so, and it would be very much contrary to our interests to remain outside the European Community. Membership will provide a large and assured market and higher and guaranteed prices for our agricultural products; it will make us less dependent on a single British market with traditionally low food prices; and membership will, if we work to ensure it, open up new export markets for our industrial products.

Since it is now clear that the Communities are enlarging and Britain is joining, our real options do not lie between joining and remaining as we are; and no discussion is really honest which fails to recognise this. Our choice must be between joining or putting in jeopardy the special trading relationship which we have with Britain—the market for some 70 per cent of our exports. We would then at best be dependent on a trade agreement with the EEC or on some other negotiated concessions to ease our difficulties, and it would be a minor easement indeed which would be poor recompense for the loss of our traditional market for our agricultural products and the sacrifice of the much higher EEC prices which would be available to us as members. Most important, by staying out we would allow the unhappy boundary in our country to harden into a real frontier. Faced with such a choice the Government could hardly hesitate. They decided that our direct interests would be well served by joining and that it would be against our interests not to do so.

In the second place, we are joining Europe because of what I described earlier as a concern for community interest, that common interest among nations which is really a form of enlightened national interest. We fully share the concern for these common interests which is evident in the preamble to the Treaty of Rome. We believe that measures at community level can bring economic and social progress and can ensure the constant improvement in the living and working conditions of our peoples and "harmonious development" for every member and to every region. We want to contribute to, as well as to benefit from, measures taken at community level to advance these common interests.

Thirdly, in joining Europe we hope to be able to advance certain values such as I spoke of earlier—values which our people, I believe, would wish to see promoted at the international level. I do not want to be pretentious or rhetorical about this. It is easy in international affairs to talk largely and eloquently about "values" and "contributions to civilisation". Because the debate in Ireland on joining has been largely in terms of interests, we may sometimes suspect that that is just what those concerned with the building of the European Communities think of, that they are, in fact, motivated solely by economic self-interest. To believe this would be quite wrong.

The Community is a curious mixture of bargaining and negotiation about prices and quotas, on the one hand, and efforts to build common institutions and to lay the groundwork for a closer unity in Europe on the other. Underlying all these activities, however, is a strong current of a more idealistic kind—a determination to promote certain common values; a strong will to ensure that western Europe which has so much in common and so much of worth in its culture will never tear itself apart again in internal hostilities. A strong motive of its founders was to promote these more idealistic concerns by knitting the members States of the Community together in a multitude of ways affecting their direct as well as their common interests. It would be a mistake to concentrate so much on each of these individual "stitches" that we do not see the larger pattern which they are slowly forming.

In each of the large and pivotal decisions of the Community these concerns have been, and will continue to be, an underlying factor whatever the hard bargaining and self-interest involved. We would do wrong to overlook these concerns or think that they receive lip service only. In joining with our new partners, however, we also bring with us as a nation certain distinctive values and concerns of our own. These are values which evolved from our history and which we can promote in the building of the structures of the new and enlarged EEC.

I do not wish to exaggerate our role. But it would be equally wrong to underestimate it. I believe that there are some at least among the Community statesmen who welcome us as members precisely because of this outlook, and these distinctive values which we will bring with us into the Communities. I would emphasise, however, that simply joining the Communities does not in itself serve the interests and the values to which I have referred. What joining does is give us an opportunity to serve them, an opportunity to promote our own interest, our common interest in community, and our ideals and values. It is up to us to use the opportunity well. It is a task for the idealist, the vigorous, the young. It is a task for enthusiasm.

I have spoken first of our relations with Britain and of our new role in the European Communities, because these are now our most vital concerns. We are involved also in a network of bilateral relations with many other developed countries. Though some in Western Europe and North America are of great importance to us, I do not propose to go into detail here in regard to specific countries in this broad survey of our foreign relations. But I would like to speak in general of that series of wider circles in which we are placed by our membership of international organisations other than the European Communities. We play a full part in various political, economic, cultural and technical bodies—in the United Nations and its specialised agencies, the Council of Europe, OECD, the International Atomic Energy Agency and others.

If we are members of any international organisation I believe that we should be good members. This means, first, that we must show a certain seriousness of purpose in what we do there; we must show a concern for our reputation as a nation and concern for the organisation itself and its aims which we have joined in order to promote. It means, too, that our votes and decisions, like all others in our international relations, must give weight to the three factors I have mentioned —national interest, common interests and the moral and other values of our society.

The influence and respect which a small country gains in any organisation, and its real contribution to the work of the organisation, depends in particular on the extent to which it matches performance to rhetoric. In an international organisation rhetoric can diverge from performance in two ways: a strong speech which reads well at home may take precedence for that reason only; or a member country's speeches and votes may be quite at variance with its actions and decisions in the real world outside. This second kind of divergence is probably more damaging and, if widely practised, can make any organisation wholly ineffective.

As an example of what I mean, I will speak specifically of the United Nations since it is one of the most comprehensive international organisations and probably the most important. If I speak about it mainly in political terms, I do so simply because these are basic. But I also recognise fully the importance and value of its economic, social and humanitarian work.

The UN is a body which is idealised or denigrated according to the preference of the observer. Those who idealise it have an exaggerated notion of what it should be, and those who denigrate it, tend to abuse it for not living up to that notion.

The reality is that the UN of today is a second and improved effort by nation states to promote their common interest in survival and order. There are now some 130 members. Because its members are all nation states, jealous of their sovereignty, the interests it serves are largely those of established nation states. And because it mirrors the world, the world's conflicts are reflected in it.

Those who idealise or denigrate the UN, however, tend to see it as something entirely apart from, and above, its members. They want to see it as a supreme moral arbiter which will judge justly, and impose its judgments in human affairs. When the UN proves less than this, in their view, it fails and they condemn it as futile and impotent. Unfortunately, the UN is a good deal less than a supreme moral arbiter—the world is full of gross injustices with which it cannot deal.

It would be wiser in my view to see the UN as a forum where nation states can, when they choose, meet to work out their differences. Sometimes the UN debate may take the place of actual conflict; sometimes both proceed simultaneously and sometimes the problems and injustices may be debated for years without obvious effect.

Because the UN mirrors the world in this way, it also mirrors the disagreements in the world. It is unrealistic to blame the UN as an entity for not solving conflicts, if the countries represented there remain in real disagreement or do not choose to settle their conflicts there.

Although it is not a supreme and impartial moral arbiter, the UN is of value in helping to promote peace, justice and order in the world. All of its members have subscribed to a common code of conduct—the Charter —under which they accept certain principles of international morality. Even if they do not always act by them, they must try to justify their behaviour in terms of these principles. Because of this, and because members may have to vote on problems where their direct national interests are not involved, there is a growing idea of an international moral community with interests in common.

On the other hand, where more than 130 states debate world issues in terms of a moral code for several months each year, there is a certain amount of empty moralising and often the debate itself has little effect on the outcome since delegates act under instructions from their home governments, based on considerations not always material to the debate.

Because UN members must take positions on all kinds of issues, and because the real power of the General Assembly is quite limited, it is easy for a delegation to vote by reference only to what I might call "the UN reality"—that is the resolutions of previous years and the pressures of the current Assembly—without regard to "the outside reality", that is what it can or will do to implement a resolution. This lack of seriousness of which I have spoken already in general terms, soon becomes apparent, and the member's real influence diminishes. More important, the UN itself suffers. It slips a degree further out of connection with any reality beyond its own and it becomes a degree less effective and less useful in dealing with difficult issues.

Perhaps the recent admission of the Peoples' Republic of China to its place in the UN—which we supported fully by our voting—will bring greater relevance and effectiveness to the organisation by making it more representative of world realities.

While we should be clear-sighted about these and other weaknesses of the UN, I still consider it a useful and at times indispensable organisation.

It is sometimes said here at home that our own UN role was more prominent and independent in the late 1950s than it has been since. I do not think this criticism makes enough allowance for the enormous changes in the UN since that period.

Before 1960, at the height of the Cold War, the UN was divided into two large blocs, and it had a limited number of members from what we could call the Third World. Cold War issues as well as great issues of decolonisation were debated. In that situation we had a particularly useful role to play for a period. How we from an independent viewpoint voted on divisive questions was then of added importance because the two blocs chose to regard their UN victories and defeats at that time as important—or at least as useful propaganda. Our support for anti-colonial resolutions was important then, even at times, perhaps, decisive, and these resolutions themselves made a difference.

But the UN has changed. The Cold War blocs have largely dissolved; and the Great Powers have less interest. The great oppositions have died away and the Great Powers play defensive or apathetic roles. Most of the decolonisation battles have been won. Some 50 newly-independent African and Asian members have joined since the early 1960s and Ireland's role as an independent member with anti-colonial sympathies is no longer unusual. These newly independent countries can and do promote most vigorously their own interests and those of the remaining colonial territories and they put forward their own resolutions on such issues as apartheid and the remaining problems of colonialism.

As real great power interest in UN voting has faded with changes in the rigid two-bloc structure, these resolutions have become of less effect. In frustration their sponsors have made them stronger in tone each year. But stronger resolutions have been even less acceptable to, and more easily ignored by, the Great Powers, wherever their interests are involved. A series of strong resolutions with less and less real effect has fostered the idea that the UN itself as an organisation is generally ineffectual. This, to my mind, is harmful and even dangerous.

I consider that this growing belief that it lacks relevance and effectiveness is now the UN's single and greatest problem. It is more basic even than financial problems, because it makes the solution of financial problems seem less urgent. The total cost of running the organisation is high but it is really nothing in Great Power terms—scarcely more than the cost of a single aircraft carrier and much less than that of a single moon-shot. Financial issues would quickly be solved if the effectiveness and relevance of the UN were clearly established.

In this situation I consider that the member States who best serve the United Nations concept and are most respected in the organisation today, are not those who speak most often about international morality or those who vote most strongly on resolutions on colonialism and other issues but those who try to maintain relevance and seriousness of purpose in their own actions there. This means, in particular, trying consistently to maintain a close congruence between speeches and votes on the one hand and subsequent willingness to give effect to the resolutions adopted on the other. I would like to see Ireland play such a part in the UN at all times— not that we should speak or vote less strongly on difficult issues but that we should ensure that whatever we are willing to vote for we should also be willing to put into practice.

I have said that we must weigh three factors in all our foreign policy decisions—national interest, community interests, and moral concern. In the UN, our direct interests are not at stake in every issue. But we do have a common interest as part of world community in maintaining an effective and relevant United Nations. We, like other members, should always keep this in mind. Without this sense of real interest and concern to give seriousness of purpose to our actions, we might lapse, as others have sometimes done, into moralising, as distinct from truly moral judgments, and so contribute, as others have done, to the failure to take the UN seriously.

Having spoken of our relations with Britain, with the European Communities and the developed countries generally, with international organisations and specifically with the United Nations, I should like to deal briefly with our relations with the countries of the developing world. In recent years, we have made considerable economic progress, but we do not usually think of ourselves as a wealthy country. Nevertheless, even now, among about 150 countries in the world, we rank among the top 30 in income per head; and by comparison with the vast majority of the world population we are wealthy indeed.

At one time, it was an easy assumption that great discrepancies in living standards between 25 per cent of the world's population on the one hand, and the 75 per cent that are close to, or below, subsistance level on the other, were due to superior virtue or industry on the part of the developed nations. This is no longer accepted. There is now more awareness of how the cards have been "stacked", so to speak, on the side of a minority of countries in the economic exchanges between nations. We should be able to see from our own internal history in Ireland, that a society—or in this case a world—in which a dominant minority prospers from a system which exploits the misery of a majority, is neither just nor stable.

Our direct national interest in giving aid to developing countries is not so great perhaps as that of major powers and former colonial countries whose trade and investments may be at risk. But we are pledged to increase our aid as our resources permit. In addition, we share with every other country in the world a strong common interest in helping to remove the present gross inequalities which inhibit the economic and social development of the Third World. We also share an appreciation of the complexity of the problems which they have to solve. There are no ready answers. Persistent efforts at national, regional and international level alone can make progress towards the desired end. By our participation in the Third United Nations Conference on Trade and Development at present in progress in Santiago, Chile, we contribute to that essential process.

I have spoken so far of basic principles in our foreign relations and of areas of interest which are of greatest importance to us. There are also, of course, more general or functional aspects of our foreign affairs which I should mention. Such issues as trade, information activities, cultural exchanges and consular protection of the interests of our citizens, for example, are part of our relations with all those countries with which we have dealings.

I will speak briefly here of two of these—trade and information activities—because they are of particular importance at present. Trade with other countries is a series of individual exchanges and contacts in which private interest, or at least mutual benefit, is usually of greater importance than the broader principles and concerns to which I referred earlier. But, taken together, the foreign contacts we have developed in trade and foreign earnings form a whole network of relations which link us as a nation with almost every country in the world.

The role of Government in a society such as ours in relation to foreign earnings is to help to stimulate exchanges organised at the private level, as far as it can, to the general benefit. In doing so it must, of course, have regard to certain more general issues arising from national economic and social development policies.

For the most part, however, the Government's foreign policy involvement in the matter of export earnings is designed to smooth the path for existing exchanges and to promote opportunities which the private sector can exploit. The promotion of trade in foreign markets and the attraction of foreign investment and tourist earnings are essential functions of our missions abroad and the business community can count on their full support.

Another aspect of our relations with other countries in general which has become a focus of attention recently is our information and publicity work abroad. In general, the activities of my Department, and of our missions abroad, complement the specific promotional and other interests of semi-State bodies such as Bord Fáilte, the Industrial Development Authority, Córas Tráchtála and others. We try to make Ireland better known and to maintain a good general image of the country abroad which will help to advance our specific, economic and other interests.

Recently, however, a more immediate concern of information work at Government level has been to ensure that the realities of the situation in the North, and Government policy towards it, are widely known and understood. Here I must say something briefly in regard to recent suggestions that we are failing in this and "losing the propaganda war".

To speak in this way is doubly wrong. First, we are not engaged and we should not try to engage in a so-called propaganda war. Secondly, those aims which we are in fact trying to advance are, on balance, being advanced gradually and on the whole successfully in world public opinion.

The general aim of Government policy is unity, by agreement, in a friendly relationship with Britain, in such a way as to bring peace and stability to all in this island. An all-out propaganda war in the sense in which that expression is usually understood might be emotionally stimulating as wars sometimes are. However, our real aim is not triumph but reconciliation. Our purpose is not simply to indulge in emotional condemnations but to persuade all concerned that a peaceful political solution is vitally necessary. Our aims would be ill-served by an all-out propaganda effort which would inflame emotions and inhibit constructive thought on the complex problems involved.

This does not mean that we refrain from bringing home the truth of the situation in the North and the truth of such tragedies as Derry to world public opinion. We can and do make every effort to see that the truth is known.

The best means of doing this and of obtaining the support of influential world press and public opinion is not necessarily to launch a flow of detailed press releases in distant parts of the world, even though activity of this kind is sometimes necessary. Usually much more useful work is done indirectly, or in ways which are not publicised. It is generally true, I think, that the most useful public relations work is that which is least obtrusive. Where the public relations effort itself becomes a main item of news, it has failed in its primary purpose. The North and Ireland generally have been a focus of attention for world news media now for several years. Large numbers of highly professional journalists and correspondents from the resident foreign press corps in London and from world capitals are frequent visitors to both parts of the country and they are by now quite well informed on the realities of the situation. Government Ministers here, as well as Opposition party spokesmen, regularly give interviews and engage in background discussion on the problems with visiting journalists of all kinds. My Department and our missions abroad are active in such matters in varying ways.

We sometimes find particular articles and reports in the foreign press which are inaccurate or sensational and show a lack of understanding of the situation. In general it is clear that there is, by now, a widespread appreciation by the world press of the issues involved. An increasing number of perceptive commentators around the world are also coming to see, as we do, the general direction that a lasting solution must ultimately take. The progress in understanding this in the world press in general over the past two years is quite surprising.

I do not suggest simplistically that our information services at Government level are responsible for this. The facts of the situation speak for themselves when they are exposed to the scrutiny of the world press over a period as the North has been. Our information services have done a good deal. It would be ill-advised to engage now in an emotionally satisfying propaganda war which would not advance our real aims and which could damage what has been and is being already achieved.

I have tried to give a broad survey of our foreign relations rather than a detailed account of the activities of my Department. I have spoken first of the basic aims we have had as a State taking its place in the world; then of the general principles of which we must take account—and, in particular, the three factors of national interest, the interests of international community and concern for moral values which must be a part of all our dealings with other countries. I dealt with the main areas of concern and interest to us— our relations with Britain, with the European Communities, with international organisations like the UN and with the developing world. Finally, I have dealt with two of the more important general aspects of our foreign relations—trade and information activities.

Throughout I have stressed the view that the foreign policy of a small democratic country like ours is not a single grand design. It is rather a network of relations, exchanges and contacts of every kind. The Government here should not and could not impose an arbitrary and abstract foreign policy on these relations. What it can and does do is try to develop and facilitate them. In doing this, my Department works through our Embassies and Consulates abroad.

Our foreign service, and the spread of our diplomatic missions abroad, is quite limited even by comparison with other countries of our size and general position. Our missions are primarily placed in those countries which are closest to us geographically, or in countries where there has been a particular historic or other link which seemed to require formalisation by means of exchange of diplomatic relations. Nevertheless, within limits, I think our real interests abroad have been generally well served by our foreign service. But Ireland's "foreign relations" in the true sense are broader than anything done by my Department. They must include the more specific economic and promotional activities of semi-State bodies such as Bord Fáilte Éireann, Coras Tráchtála and the Industrial Development Authority which work under general Government direction to promote very specific economic interests. Beyond that again, our international relations in the broadest sense will include all the many individual contacts and exchanges of our citizens with other countries.

The Government, and the Minister for Foreign Affairs, can guide and try to develop all of these relations with other countries. In some matters, it is necessary to take courageous decisions and initiatives at Government level. As I said at the outset, no Government can move too far ahead of its own society. In the last analysis then, because of this and because our foreign relations are much more than merely Government level contacts, it is the concern of our society, as a whole, for the interests and values which it holds which will determine our nation's place in the world. Our foreign relations and our foreign policy should, after all, in the long run, express the character, values and concerns of the Irish people in their dealings with the world.

It is now over two years since we have had a debate in this House on foreign policy other than such debates as were forced upon us by reason of crises which arose from time to time, particularly in our Anglo-Irish relations. We therefore welcome the Minister's contribution today as an indication of the thinking of the Government in this very important sphere of foreign relations, an area which is at any time for a sovereign country of immense importance but at this great time of change is one of more critical significance to this country than it ever has been before.

When the original Estimate for the year 1971-72 was entered on the Order Paper of the Dáil, on behalf of the Fine Gael Party I tabled a motion to refer back the Estimate, and our reason for doing so was serious disagreement with the Government on a number of aspects of foreign policy. Because pressure of business in the House prevented the Estimate Vote being taken in the ordinary way, we had to vote the moneys ahead of the debate, which meant that our motion to refer back the Estimate also fell by the wayside.

Nevertheless, I wish to use this debate for the purpose of indicating areas of serious disagreement with the policy and behaviour of the Minister for Foreign Affairs and of the Government over the past two years.

To listen to the Minister's pious sentiments today one would not think this is the man who, after the tragic events of Derry last year, engaged in a propaganda rampage across the North American continent and the European continent, engaging in a battle of national animosities and portraying the stresses and strains of Northern Ireland as a matter of territorial dispute and of ancient rivalries between Ireland and Britain. It seems to me unsatisfactory for a Minister to have acted in that way at such a time of deep national feeling. The Minister spoke today, one might think, in sentiments of chastisement of people who would believe in engaging in a propaganda war. He mentioned that such a war might be emotionally stimulating, but he suggested that it might be self-defeating because it might defeat reconciliation. Is this to be taken as a recognition by him at this stage that his behaviour was, in fact, damaging to the national interest, was more likely to stimulate animosities in the North of Ireland and elsewhere, and was in no way helpful in getting a proper understanding of the real problems involved?

I sensed also throughout the Minister's speech a note of cynicism, clouded perhaps in pious sentiments. There is no need for this country to be reluctant in giving its vote, its voice and its influence in matters concerning fundamental decencies, fundamental freedoms and human rights. If the Government had concerned itself with these matters rather than with national animosities over the past three and a half years in relation to the North of Ireland we might be a great deal further on the road to national reconciliation than we are. The conduct of the Minister in, first of all, going to North America rather than Europe and then proceeding across Europe—because the proper course of conduct was pointed out to him by Fine Gael —indicated, from what he said and what we saw him say on television, that he considers it more important to placate the extremists of his own party at home than to get international statesmen to use their good offices to persuade Britain of the need to change her course of conduct. We know the Minister's words and conduct made friends of Ireland and supporters of human rights fearful to intervene. We know that the Minister's words and conduct automatically engendered a feeling of self-defence and self-righteousness on the part of Britain and the British Government, who automatically went into self-defence rather than into self-examination. We know also that the Minister's words and conduct, supported by the Government, gave support to a mistaken notion which some people propagated that the departure of the British Army from the North of Ireland would solve all. Like the misdirected and ill-conceived press campaign of two years ago, the Minister's excursions were counter-productive.

Accepting what the Minister said today and has on other occasions said about the importance of the United Nations, we accept that it was appropriate that, after the tragedy of Derry and throughout the travail of the last three years, the Minister for Foreign Affairs should make known in the United Nations the reaction of the people of Ireland to what was occurring there. But the area of greatest influence open to Ireland today is not North America, is not our former colleague members of the British Commonwealth of Nations, but is Europe. The Minister would have done a much better service to the afflicted people of Northern Ireland and to all the people of Ireland and of Europe by addressing himself in the first instance to the member nations of the European Economic Community and the Council of Europe. Where does Britain today seek to exert most influence in her own self-interest, the self-interest which the Minister properly recognises as legitimate for any country? It is in Europe. She seeks not merely to join the EEC like ourselves but also to influence it to accept British thinking, British policies. She knows also she cannot hope to achieve this goal of hers if she antagonises European opinion. Once the Minister had addressed himself to the United Nations General Secretary and to the agencies of the United Nations, his next call should have been to the EEC in Brussels.

I am aware that the Minister's thinking on this matter was that the EEC is not a political community and that it might have been embarrassed had it received a formal political approach in relation to the North of Ireland. I believe that thinking is perfectly legitimate, but it ignored what the Minister ought to have known and ought to have taken into account, and that was the frightful concern that the member nations of the EEC felt in relation to what was occurring in part of a state which sought to be a member of the EEC. While the Minister has properly recognised in his address today that formal public approaches are oftentimes dangerous, the reality of the EEC which the Minister should have recognised fully, was and still is concerned with the tensions in the North of Ireland and the strained relations between two applicant nations to join the EEC should be settled before 1st January, 1973, the date upon which it is hoped the two nations concerned will become members of the European Economic Community. For the Minister to have gone to the United States of America, and addressed himself to United States politicians, and then to Canadian politicians, before speaking to European statemen was a political gaffe of the first magnitude. What is the effect of American influence in Northern Irish affairs today? At best, it is counter-productive. Normally it is harmful because it is based upon a misunderstanding of the situation, upon myths and legends. I speak now irrespective of whether the influence or the intervention, the monetary aid or the arms supplies come from those connected with the "green" or the "orange" elements in our community.

In addressing himself to an old Commonwealth colleague in Canada before speaking to our European neighbours the Minister discovered what this country should recognise, namely, that Commonwealth countries are really no longer interested in Irish problems and they will certainly not prefer to take the side of nationalist Ireland against sovereign Britain, which is still an equal member and colleague of theirs in the Commonwealth of Nations. We, of course, value the sympathy we get in the United States, in Canada and throughout the member nations of the Commonwealth of Nations, but let us realise that in the second half of the 20th century our national interest, to which the Minister referred as a legitimate consideration, our common interest with other nations, requires first attention to Europe and, in future, when we seek influence and intervention to assist us, let us look for it in Europe and not in the sphere in which, no matter how well intentioned, is likely to be more harmful than beneficial.

Throughout recent months there has been a great deal of speculation about the possibility of the establishment of diplomatic relations with Russia. I would have thought that the Minister would have referred to this in the course of his address. We are disappointed that he did not do so because he recognised that foreign policy is a matter not alone for the Government but also for the Opposition and for other interested groups in the State. We, in Fine Gael, tabled a motion in this House requesting that before a decision was taken in this matter there would be a debate on this issue. The Government's response has been that this is a matter for the Government alone to decide. We cannot accept that and the Minister's contribution today suggests, I think, that a matter of such import is beyond the selfish interest of any Government at any particular time. If a government of this State establishes diplomatic relations with any country such relations cannot be severed without serious consequences because severing diplomatic relations is inevitably regarded as a rejection of relations with the country with which one had formal connections and, before this State is committed to the establishment of diplomatic relations with a country which has no significant trade, cultural or scientific association with this State, it is proper that the matter should be fully debated in this House.

One wonders why the Government have in fact allowed this kite to be flown for so long. Perhaps they did not themselves fly the kite in the first instance. Perhaps they did not manufacture the kite or provide the wind for the kite to be flown, but they might at least have taken some steps to pull the kite down. I suggest they did supply the wind to keep the kite in flight because the Minister himself indicated in a broadcast, which was internationally televised, that in the event of Ireland not getting assistance from her traditional friend in relation to the North of Ireland she might look elsewhere for support. One may wonder why at a time of immense national strain and worry the Minister should have added the mischievous idea of establishing diplomatic relations with the USSR. Was it done to taunt the British Government which recently had cause to call upon the USSR to withdraw over 100 of its Embassy staff in London? Was it done to goad our American and Canadian friends into declaring an interest for Ireland they might not otherwise have declared? We just do not know. All this has been left very much up in the air.

I want not to pull down that kite. If the Minister wants to fly it again, well and good, but let him do it openly and let him give the kind of leadership he says a government has the responsibility of giving. Our trade with Russia is negligible. The ratio is ten to one against us. In 1970 our exports to Russia were nil; we imported from Russia nearly £1½ million worth of goods. In the following year, 1971, our exports to the USSR were £214,000 worth of goods and we imported nearly £3 million worth of goods from Russia. It may be argued quite properly that we should endeavour to cure this imbalance. That is an opinion with which we entirely agree. But one does not have to establish diplomatic relations with a country in order to create a situation of trade balance. Indeed, if one looks at many of the countries with which we have diplomatic relations, it might conceivably be argued that the way to worsen one's trade balance is by establishing diplomatic relations.

The Minister spoke about common interest being a governing factor in foreign policy. What common interest has this country with the USSR? We have no cultural associations with Russia. We have no scientific relations with Russia and we are unlikely in the foreseeable future to be able to benefit by any scientific or technological association with the USSR. There is no point in having arrangements for the purchase of military equipment from the USSR because again in the foreseeable future any conflict in which we might be involved would be with some power that would geographically be between us and the USSR and, therefore, we would not be able to get replacements to maintain such military equipment as we might require from Russia.

I do not make as little of morality as the Minister seems to suggest in his address. I do not want to be unfair to the Minister. He did say that it was proper that we should be concerned with moral values but he put it in a third position. I do not know whether that was accidental or whether it indicates the priority of his values. Russia is blatantly in contravention of many United Nations obligations concerning fundamental freedoms and human decencies. I suspect that the Minister had Russia and other countries in mind when he spoke about the huge void between votes in the UN and action at home on the other hand. Russia, being in contravention of some of the most fundamental rights of man, how can it be conceived that this country should establish diplomatic relations with Russia? The USSR is a country which has slightingly condemned the presence of Irish soldiers in Cyprus, speaking of them as foreign soldiers imposed upon the sovereign soil of Cyprus and demanding that Irish soldiers, together with other UN troops, be withdrawn from Cyprus. Russia is a country which refuses to contribute its share towards the cost of maintaining forces in Cyprus, previously in the Congo and elsewhere, to maintain international peace. Yet this kite has been flown for many, many months and no attempt has been made by the Minister or the Government to put it down. We repudiate the suggestion which perhaps might be made by some that mother Ireland should suckle the Russian bear as a contribution to world détente. I do not think it is necessary that that physical exercise should be engaged in and I think the Minister seems to accept that now, to judge by his reaction, but it is high time that we accepted the realities of the situation.

If there is good cause for establishing diplomatic relations with some State in the eastern bloc, if there is some common interest between ourselves and the eastern bloc, if the argument is that we need diplomatic relations in order to promote trade with the eastern bloc, then let us consider doing it not with a country which is the very antithesis of everything in which we believe but with some country which, like ourselves, is dominated by an imperial power. We have considerable affinity with a country like Poland and our trade with Poland is seven times greater than our trade with Russia and it is not in the same state of imbalance as our trade with Russia—though indeed it is not particularly healthy either. There would be something to be said for establishing diplomatic relations with Poland or Czechoslovakia or Hungary or Yugoslavia or Bulgaria or Albania or Rumania or Eastern Germany for all these are victims of imperialism, just as we have been for so long, and if it be that any proposal that we should have diplomatic relations with one of those Comecon countries or Yugoslavia has been found to be unacceptable in Moscow, so be it. Let us not succumb to any bullying tactic of Moscow. In fact, disapproval has been uttered by the Soviets——

Are we not living in an era when my neighbour is all mankind of every description without any exception of persons, even those who injure us or differ from us in religion?

I know that is the personal philosophy of Deputy Burke but it does not necessarily reflect the attitude of mind or the philosophy of many powerful States. Whatever they may say in United Nations resolutions, one must judge them by their conduct.

We, in Fine Gael, believe that it would serve this country's interests to endeavour to get a better foothold tradewise, for commercial reasons, in Eastern Europe. There is an immense growth in the trade between eastern and western Europe and we believe that this is a desirable thing to promote. The very justification for the EEC is a conviction that men will not fight with one another when they become commercially, economically and socially dependent upon one another. So the likelihood of a conflict between east and west becomes less as they become mutually dependent, but this does not require the sophisticated step of establishment of diplomatic relations.

Let us not make light of the many problems which would have to be faced in the promotion of trade with any of the Comecon countries. First of all, the kind of imports which they are at present taking from western Europe, and these are growing at a rate of nearly 14 per cent per annum, are in the sphere of advanced producer goods of which we produce precious little. We have had a number of trade fairs in Warsaw Pact countries but they have not produced very much trade. In fact, if we had spent as much time and effort in more fertile markets we would probably have got a better return. In trade also with Comecon countries we would have the additional difficulty not alone of trading with potential customers at a long distance but we would have to deal not only with the end consumer but also with government agencies. It may be argued that in order to promote such trade, therefore, we need to have a government agency of our own in eastern Europe. We accept the possible need for that but that can be done not by means of diplomatic relations but by means of commercial attachés. There are further difficulties also in trading with eastern Europe and they include the difficulty of getting payment in a convertible currency. There is little value in our proceeding to develop increased trade with eastern Europe unless we also take steps to ensure that such trade is conducted to our advantage and in such a way as will ensure a proper balance for the future and that any relations will not have political overtones which we may find unacceptable.

In Fine Gael and in all sensible circles in this country there has been quite an amount of worry in recent times about the worsening of relations between Ireland and our nearest neighbour, Britain. Even when it was unpopular to do so this party has advocated that Ireland's interests require good relations with our nearest and most powerful neighbour. I do not think the Government's conduct has particularly helped to promote better relations between Ireland and Britain in recent years. Where this country's immediate interest was concerned they frequently remained silent and by failing to protest gave Britain justification for believing that they could tread further upon our corns. It is never a way in which to maintain good relations, to let people believe that you are not particularly worried about their conduct. It is much better whenever you see misconduct being initiated that you would protest at that stage.

However, I do not want to go back over too many old sores. I would perfer, therefore, to refer briefly to the recent initiatives taken by the British Government in relation to the North of Ireland. We do not quite understand the statement in the Minister's address that the policy of the Government on the North is primarily a matter for the Taoiseach. The Minister said he dealt with it only in so far as it directly affected his relations with another Government. Are we to understand that there is some disagreement between the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Taoiseach in relation to the North of Ireland?

I said the Government's policy on the North.

It carries on the old tradition. Mr. de Valera had a similar habit.

The Minister said the policy of the Government on the North is primarily a matter for the Taoiseach. He went on to say that he dealt with it only in so far as it directly affects our relations with another Government. I suspect, and the whole nation suspects, that there is disagreement between the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Taoiseach. Certainly, the performance of the Minister for Foreign Affairs in the weeks immediately following Derry was not in keeping with the attitude and statements of the Taoiseach either before or since Derry. We find it very odd that any member of a Government in making an address to the House on the Estimate for his Department should proceed to say that some particular matter of governmental policy is a matter primarily for the Taoiseach. There is either Government responsibility or there is not.

I said Government policy. The same as the Foreign Affairs policy is Government policy to be dealt with by me, Northern Ireland policy is to be dealt with by the Taoiseach, health policy to be dealt with by the Minister for Health, Deputy Childers.

Yes, but the responsibility lies with the Government.

Yes. It is in what the Deputy is reading.

All members of the Government hold equal responsibility and should be prepared to give equal respect to that policy.

Not for talking about it. We like to stick to our last as far as possible.

We are quite aware that you all like to stick to your own lasts and that is what has the country in the state in which it is.

It is Government policy, with a spokesman for each function.

The Minister is now qualifying in a most significant way what he said in his original address because he has come under attack.

It is down there in what the Deputy is reading that it is Government policy.

I have offered a valid criticism of what the Minister said today and of what the Minister's conduct has led the nation to believe in recent times.

However, we are dealing at the moment primarily with the actions of the British Government and I accept them as being British Government initiatives and not the initiatives of the head of that Government but of the British Government itself. As a result of these initiatives, British standing in the world has vastly improved and this imposes upon this country, out of self-interest, as the Minister has accepted, a very clear obligation to ensure that any violent action which could defeat the benefit flowing from these initiatives is not encouraged by or tolerated from this State of ours. There are, however, many signs to cause public concern that the Government are less than committed to the resolution of this House that violence is totally repudiated as a means to achieve a political solution to any outstanding differences in Ireland.

We are disappointed that the Government have not so far publicly expressed disagreement with one dangerous suggestion in the British package proposals and that is the suggestion for a regular plebiscite to determine whether or not the North of Ireland should remain a part of Great Britain or become associated with the Republic of Ireland. I say that this is a dangerous suggestion although I accept that it is possibly well meaning, because it would, for the first time in international law or national law, build into the fundamental law of a political entity a provision for regular consideration of its own extinction.

A thing is not necessarily bad because it is novel but it ought to give us cause for concern if it is novel that mankind has never in all its previous experience found it desirable to make such a suggestion. We ought, as a country which is concerned with national unity and which desires to see peace and harmony restored in these islands, to warn against any proposal which would at regular intervals inflate feeling, artificially promote discontent and misunderstanding and from time to time, out of necessity of law, compel people to go back to their old traditional corners in order to spar at one another continuing whatever prejudices might have existed.

We live in a very changing situation, a situation which is changing not only internally but also in our international associations with our nearest neighbour. The Stormont Parliament and Government are gone, for how long we do not know but we certainly know, and it is reasonable to anticipate it, that it is gone never to return in its old form. We have yet to see any reaction of significant value from the Government, from the Minister for Foreign Affairs or from the Taoiseach, commensurate with this tremendously significant event in Anglo-Irish relations. There is now a need to think on a scale never previously dreamt of. We must, of course, have compassion but we need above all else clarity of vision. These particular aspects have been singularly absent from the Government's policy and the Government's action in recent times.

We have said from the Opposition that we cannot accept direct rule as a long-term solution. We do not believe that any well-intentioned foreigner knows the wishes, the anxieties, the fears, the needs, the desires of the Irish people as well as they do themselves and we want to see self-government restored in all parts of Ireland as quickly as possible. We feel that the Government lack the sense of urgency which the events of recent months demand from them. We are sorely disappointed that throughout the Minister's otherwise valuable contribution today——

Thank you.

——we had no reaction to these momentous events of recent times. Fifty years of legends, myths and intrigues have driven the people of this island further apart. We were never, I believe, a united people. Sometimes we are led to believe that because Presbyterians in 1798 found sympathy with Catholics this indicated unanimity of opinion in this island in favour of separation from Britain but this, like many other legends and myths, cannot be well-established. We need now to take every step we can to promote and to capitalise on common values and common interests. They are simple if people in this island were given the opportunity to go about their daily work and their lawful vocations free from the fear of violence, whether applied by governmental forces or by people who presume to take the law into their own hands for political objectives, worthy or unworthy. Our Government here have failed our people in this respect.

I spoke earlier about the Government's silence whenever the vital interests of this State are concerned. From these benches from time to time we have raised a number of these issues and whenever we raised them we were faced with a certain coolness on the part of the Government if not indifference. The wisdom of our attitude is now clearly to be seen because of the tragedies that have occurred. When first of all incursions occurred across our Border by British military and when our vessels were improperly stopped on the high seas and searched by British naval forces, we raised the matter in the House and we found a general reluctance on the part of the Government to do anything about it. We warned at that time that unless the matter was seriously dealt with and a formal protest made to Britain, this could escalate into a situation in which death could occur because of these incursions. It was only when violence and tragedy occurred that the Government began to treat the matter seriously.

When tragedies occurred, and since then, the Taoiseach invited the United Nations to send observers on to our soil in order to satisfy British public opinion that the Government here were doing all they could to seal off the Border. We repudiated then, we repudiate now and we will always repudiate any suggestion that UN troops should be invited on to our soil, the soil of the Twenty-six counties, in order to get any Government here out of an embarrassing situation. I would add to that that we view with considerable reserve any suggestion that the UN would be brought in to deal with the Northern Ireland situation at all. Even if one accepts the good intentions of the UN, and of UN forces if brought in, we must compare our hopes with what we have seen occur elsewhere.

The Cyprus situation is not dissimilar to the Irish one. We have contributed our share of men and materials and sacrifices to assist the people of Cyprus to resolve their community tensions and to work in harmony. But what has been achieved by the UN in Cyprus? After their seven year's presence there, they have driven the Turkish and the Greek communities further apart. They now have less contact with one another than before the UN arrived, and the barriers, the barbed wire, the barricades have risen higher and the two communities are now further apart.

So let us not assume that we would find anything of value in a UN military presence on any part of Irish soil. It might well seem to provide a breathing space within which people could put on their thinking caps instead of using guns. That is the theory but the reality is that the presence of a UN contingent in Ireland as in Cyprus would simply lead to a situation in which both communities would be driven further and further apart.

We also raised in the House—the Government treated it with levity—the illegality of imprisoning people on board the Maidstone in Belfast Lough. The fact that Mr. Whitelaw on his appointment treated as a matter of priority the closing down of the Maidstone is, I think, a matter of considerable significance, but it was not done because of a suggestion of the Irish Government. Indeed, the Minister in reply to an Adjournment debate indicated that he did not propose to raise the matter.

What was illegal in relation to the Maidstone? It was that the territory of Northern Ireland extended to only six parliamentary counties and did not include the water where the Maidstone was moored. Why did the Government not protest? They did not do so because to protest would mean they would have had to rely on the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 6th December, 1921, which the whole Fianna Fáil Party were founded to reject and which forever since their foundation had spent most of their energies endeavouring to denigrate.

While it is not now relevant because of subsequent curative action taken by the British parliament, also as a matter of urgency the Government should have protested when the Westminster Parliament passed the Northern Ireland Act, 1972, conferring on the Stormont Parliament power to direct, influence, control and grant immunity to the British Army in Northern Ireland. That step was in direct conflict with the Ireland Act, 1920 which became an essential part of the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921 and which, indeed, was referred to ultimately in subsequent British legislation. Again why did the Government not make any protest? Why did they not bring it before the World Court in The Hague? It is because it would have meant their relying on what the Fianna Fáil Party have spent their life denigrating, the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921.

I mention these things not in any spirit of old animosity but simply because I want to draw attention to the unsuitability of the present Government at this time of national crisis, because of their failure to act in the interests of this country since doing so might cause certain tensions and strains within their own party or those who for the time being are supporting them in this House and outside it Although the Taoiseach, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and others may profess to put the interests of the nation first, it is quite clear they have been pre-occupied throughout all those days of great national strain with maintaining the unity of their party irrespective of the harm this might cause to the national interests.

I mentioned earlier my disagreement with the Minister on the emphasis which he put on territorial rivalry and national animosities. I think it is unfortunate the Government took so long to make a complaint to the European Commission on Human Rights about the manner in which detainees are being treated in Northern Ireland. It may sound churlish at this stage to make this complaint but it is important that we would make this complaint against the Government because this is the first occasion on which we have been able to debate foreign affairs here in two years. It took them five months to assemble evidence and to make a formal complaint and during all that time, and indeed, for a long time afterwards, Irish people were being tortured and were brutally illtreated in Northern Ireland.

It is not good enough to believe that human needs and the welfare of our people can await diplomatic convenience. I do not know whether it is that the Department are short of personnel or because they are preoccupied with potential membership of the EEC but we feel they have not given sufficient urgency to the internal situation in Northern Ireland. If they had moved a little faster, with a little more sincerity and conviction, we might not have had to wait until March of 1972 before British initiatives were implemented in respect of the North of Ireland situation, initiatives which were not, as the Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs suggested, steps forward but which were simply a shaking out of the situation, an opening up which enabled new steps to be taken.

I have the privilege to represent Ireland in the Council of Europe and I should like to acknowledge here the immense contribution which was made to Ireland's entry by all three parties who are represented on the council. Although we have the reputation at home, understandably so, of being concerned with party interests and with failing to give priority to the interests of the nation, it is important that Ireland should realise that on the Council of Europe all matters of party rivalry are entirely forgotten and that the Irish delegation to the Council have been able to work unanimously and to achieve considerable progress in the field of human rights, particularly in relation to Northern Ireland.

I would like to know what steps the Government are taking to expedite some of the matters which came before the Council of Europe. The Committee of Ministers there appears to be unable to accept the resolution which the European Assembly adopted over two years ago calling for an extension of the European Convention on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms to end discrimination on religious and political grounds in respect of housing, employment and electoral rights.

It is sometimes argued that the European Social Charter protects the social and economic rights of the people. This is not true because there is no sanction available, there is no cure available to any person who is wronged under the European Social Charter. It is very necessary that we as a country would insist that Europe would so strengthen the European Convention on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms that the right not to be discriminated against would become enforceable in the European Commission and in the European Council. The difficulty which arises arises because of a misunderstanding of the right which it sought to protect. It is not sought to establish as an enforceable right the right to a house, the right to a job or the right to a vote. What is sought to establish is the right not to be discriminated against. It should not be beyond the resources of the legal advisers of the Committee of Ministers in the institutions of Europe to devise an enforceable right that a person would not be discriminated against.

We would therefore urge on the Minister and the Government that they would take every possible step necessary to ensure that the right not to be discriminated against is adequately protected in the European Commission and the European Courts without further delay. I know it has caused some disappointment to people, who had hoped that the European Council and the Courts and the Commission could deal with the situation in Northern Ireland, that it has not yet effectively intervened. The reason why it has not intervened is because from 1948 to 1950 when the European Convention was being drawn up the well-intentioned people of Europe could not conceive a situation in which any nation and state would presume to discriminate against people on the grounds of religion or political belief in relation to housing and employment. Ireland's voice raised in those days by our predecessors on the Council of Europe was ignored. It is perhaps ironic that the reports of British Government Commissions have now established that what was then alleged by the Irish delegation was entirely justified.

We are not, however, concerned with casting blame on anybody. We urge on the Minister and the Government to use all their influence to ensure that the correct decision is taken by the Committee of Ministers and the institutions of the Council of Europe in relation to this very important field. It is only by protecting such rights and providing remedies, where they are interfered with, that we can provide the kind of international remedy which would prevent a recurrence in the North of Ireland of the kind of discrimination which has occurred there in the past.

Last night I heard a spokesman for the Labour Party reiterate one of the myths about the EEC and the North of Ireland which I think we should explode in the course of this debate. It is often suggested that by signing the Treaty of Accession to the Rome Treaty on the same day as the United Kingdom Government Ireland in some way or other recognises the validity of British presence in the North of Ireland or that in some way this act was an abandonment of our desire to achieve national unity. I find it extraordinary to hear that kind of criticism come from a party whose spokesmen often argue that we should remove from the Constitution Article 3 which establishes as of right jurisdiction over the North of Ireland, even if for the time being we are unable to exercise it. The fact is that this State since 1922 has entered into some 12 international agreements with the same United Kingdom Government. We are also members of the United Nations Organisation, of which the United Kingdom Government are members. We were members of the League of Nations when it existed. We are members of the OECD and we also receive here in Ireland the British Ambassador, who represents the same United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

It is high time we got clarity of thinking in this regard and it is high time also that we replaced this false claim of right with something which would be of much greater value, that is to declare a desire to achieve the unity of Ireland rather than asserting a right. The assertion of a right against a neighbour is unlikely ever to win that neighbour to your way of thinking, whereas an expression of a desire to co-operate will probably achieve a great deal more. I am mentioning that matter in passing when dealing with Northern Ireland and I think that this puerile propaganda which is going on against the EEC, suggesting that it involves to some extent a permanent recognition of the validity of the Border, is something which is contemptuous, is harmful to national interests, is also injurious to other relationships with Britain and is in total conflict with the conduct of this State ever since it achieved its freedom.

There have been suggestions that we should establish an all-party committee to review the Constitution and to deal with other matters which might need to be revised in the light of prospects of Irish unity. We, in Fine Gael, have responded very gladly to these suggestions because we, of course, in the first instance initiated them. It would be very wrong, however, were the public to believe that because of the Taoiseach's belated initiatives in this regard there is an all-party committee at present functioning in relation to the North of Ireland or indeed Anglo-Irish relations. Nothing could be further from the truth. We share no responsibility for the Government's actions or inactions in relation to the North of Ireland, to Anglo-Irish relations or to that inaction of the Government in dealing with the threats in our own community to our own security.

Before the nation is swamped by disenchantment with all parliamentarians is is important for them to understand that we have been refused any participation in the formulation of national policy, in the formulation of policy for the future or the conduct of affairs in relation to the North of Ireland, internal security or Anglo-Irish relations. Ever since the emergency began in the North of Ireland in 1968, we have pleaded with the Government, who apparently are in a state of disagreement amongst themselves or amongst their supporters, to avail of the goodwill and the good intentions of the Opposition in this Parliament so that a more constructive and beneficial approach could be made in the terribly dangerous situation. However, the fact that we have been spurned so often does not discourage us from once again in this debate renewing this appeal. We renew it, at the same time recognising that the ultimate responsibility in this field must of course lie with the Government of the day but that is no reason why there should not be adequate and continuous consultation.

In his contribution today, like statements from other Government spokesmen, the Minister has thrown out a certain amount of pious platitudes which would seem to suggest a general outward look, a generosity on the part of the Government. However, this is very much in conflict with their practice. I asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs if he would agree to the establishment of a foreign affairs committee of Members of this House which would meet regularly to discuss matters of interest to Ireland in the field of international relations. So far, all I have received from the Minister is an indication that the Government might consider, in the event of the referendum producing a positive vote, the establishment of a committee which would consider problems affecting this country arising out of membership of the EEC——

I did not agree to that.

I have not the text here but I understood the Minister in a reply to a parliamentary question to indicate a willingness to consider this matter.

I was interested for a long time in having a committee of the Dáil but the Opposition did not do anything about it. I expressed my willingness——

That is not quite in accordance with the facts. The Minister knows that Fine Gael are only too anxious for the establishment of a foreign affairs committee in this Parliament. In fact, we gave a specific undertaking that in the event of Fine Gael being in power we would establish such a committee as an essential part of democratic and parliamentary procedures here.

In his statement the Minister has acknowledged that foreign affairs is a collection of wisdom and views, that it reflects not merely the thinking of the Government of the day but of the Opposition, that it represents the pooling of wisdom and experience not only of parliamentarians but also of bodies such as Córas Tráchtála, Bord Fáilte and individuals who travel abroad. It seems extraordinary in the light of acceptance of that truism that the Minister should continue to drag his feet in relation to the establishment of a foreign affairs committee.

I have heard the Minister acknowledge that Foreign Affairs was now perhaps the most difficult portfolio for any Minister to hold. It involves specialised knowledge in a multitude of different disciplines, from fish to the legal interpretation of international documents, from sugar-growing to military involvement, as well as a multitude of other interests. In fact, the Minister for Foreign Affairs must be better informed on every Government Department than even the Taoiseach. The latter is immediately answerable only to his own Parliament and his own people, but the Minister for Foreign Affairs is answerable not only to the Government and people but to the international bodies with which he is directly associated.

Because of this highly complex field of international relations, because of the extent of EEC treaties and subsequent directives and regulations which have been made, and because EEC membership in the future will involve not only a study of what has been achieved but also what is in the pipeline, it becomes more important than ever to have a foreign affairs committee in the Dáil.

One would think this was some extraordinary development, but it exists in each of the Parliaments of the countries with which we propose to be associated in the EEC. In addition to some other peculiarities which may baffle our European neighbours, we are unique in not having all-party committees on foreign affairs and many other activities. Even in our own small community of three million people, life is becoming so complex that Members of this House cannot hope to reach any worthwhile understanding of events without having some form of committee system.

If we go into the EEC there will be another reason for such a committee, namely, that the EEC will take over some of the legislative functions of Oireachtas Éireann. Without having a foreign affairs committee we will not be in a position to study whatever is proposed in adequate time before the rules and regulations are made. At the moment, no significant step controlling our society can be taken without the matter coming before the Dáil and Seanad for full debate. If it is a Bill it must go through all its Stages and if it is a regulation or statutory instrument made by a Minister it must be put before the House where it can be reviewed or set aside by either House before it becomes law.

In the EEC, these legislative functions in respect of some activities will be taken from us. It will not suffice to leave the review and examination of potential rules and regulations to the civil servants or to the Minister of the day. We know that the Minister would not have time to consider such proposals in depth, but if we had an all-party committee there would be ample opportunity to consider the applicability of what is proposed having regard to our situation and for us to make our suggestions and amendments in good time to see that our interests were adequately protected.

Apparently I was misled by the Minister's benign countenance on a previous occasion into believing that the Government were prepared to agree to this. Now I discover it to be otherwise.

I was only questioning what the Deputy was quoting. The Deputy appeared to quote from an answer he said I gave which I did not remember giving in the Dáil. I am not rejecting the principle——

I know the Minister was good enough to indicate to us that he was prepared——

Mr. J. Lenehan

It is a shame that at least 20 lunatics should not be here to listen to this piece of lunacy. I wish to call for a House.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

Debate adjourned.
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