Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 Jun 1972

Vol. 262 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 48: Health (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £58,028,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1973, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Health (including Oifig an Ard-Chláraitheora), and certain services administered by that Office, including grants to Health Boards, miscellaneous grants and certain grants-in-aid.
—(Minister for Health.)

Last night I was referring to the measures taken to bring benefit medicine on to a better basis, to broaden the scope of our health schemes, to review and strengthen the school health service, to provide better health education in general, to regenerate the district nursing service, to extend the general medical service and the auxiliary services such as the dental side of the scheme, and to provide better care and accommodation for the aged. The care of the aged is a new scheme with which all Deputies in the House will agree. It is one we should like to see working well from the start. I think the action of the Minister in trying to promote it on a unit basis whereby it will attract voluntary health subscribers is a very good decision.

I suggest that all these extensions mark a milestone of our progress on the road to the better health of the community. I also suggest that our progress in the hospital side of the scheme, the setting up of the Comhairle na nOspidéal and the regional hospital boards, is welcomed by those in the country who have a genuine interest in the patient, who is the most important person in medicine and who is always conscious of the need for good hospitals.

We subscribe to these views and there are thousands of people in the community who also subscribe to them. We can only have a high class hospital system if it is founded on a basis where all information needed on the various aspects of hospital management is available. If we are to build up better medicine we must subscribe to the suggestion that there should be better management of hospitals and I am glad to know that on the administration side the Minister deemed management to be worthy of immediate attention. Nowhere is management more important than in a good hospital system if we are to move towards better and larger hospital units. Therefore, I was impressed to learn from the Minister's statement on the Estimate that the recruitment of management teams is proceeding and that by the end of the financial year the Minister hopes to have this work completed. This is a distinctive move forward on our part.

Many speakers at various times criticise in a scorching way our hospital services. Of late we have heard some comments in relation to some hospital charges. This is only natural. The recent announcement of an increase in the scale of charges for treatment in voluntary hospitals brought forth that sort of comment. When we hear of such increases we must realise that hospitals call for large well equipped staffs with a high degree of skill in medical science. That covers top-class surgery and top-class medical therapy from the head surgeon and physician right down to the junior doctors, the matron and the nursing staff. It is very hard to place a value on the work of a good surgeon or a good physician. It is equally hard to place a value on good nursing care. If one considers the number of trained personnel required to look after one patient it is very hard, if not impossible, to evaluate the services of such a team.

Teamwork is called for in industry, in the services, in agriculture and in business generally. How much more is it called for in hospitals? In an intensive care unit at any given time from three to six nurses and, perhaps, three or four doctors, may be engaged in looking after one patient. This illustrates the effort involved. The effort is truly enormous. This is where the greatest expenditure is bound to occur. This is the heart of the matter. This is what good hospitalisation is all about and those who are critical must look at the naked facts. As I said, we aim to provide the best service possible for the patient and, if we baulk at paying for it, then the patient will not get it.

The Minister stressed the increased cost. We all know that the staff of a hospital must be paid, must have time off, must have decent living quarters, must keep up certain standards and so forth. No one disagrees with these aims. If anyone does disagree then I should like to hear the arguments against. I am advised that another side of the hospital system has also to keep up good standards. I refer to the housekeeping side of hospital care, providing the patient with meals, supplying a laundry and other services. These compare very favourably with similar services rendered elsewhere. Indeed, some of our hospitals could teach some catering establishments a lesson.

The conditions of employment of the staff must be as good, if not better, than the conditions of employment of staff engaged in other enterprises. When we take everything into account there is no difficulty in seeing that a case can be made for increased charges in this sphere. I am not here to make a case for hospitals. I am here solely for the purpose of having regard to the facts.

Health services of their very nature are different from other services. They have nothing in common with commercialism. There is no profit motive. Unlike a business venture a hospital is not interested in making a profit qua profit. The aim and the ambition is to provide the best surgery, the best medical therapy, the best nursing and the best maintenance possible. This is a laudable aim. This aim can be accomplished only by a truly dedicated team using the most up-to-date methods.

In my own local authority area costs have been increasing all the time. In 1958-59 the health grant in County Longford amounted to £101,365. In the last financial year, 1970-71, it amounted to £372,000. This brings us up immediately against increasing costs. If we expect more money from Government sources, then we must, as members of local authorities or of health authorities, also recognise that our share of the cost must also increase. It is not possible for costs to be met altogether on the one side. The Minister said that the cost of running the health system is roughly £86½ million and that this represents an increase of £13 million on previous years. This in itself points to the direction in which we are going: the direction of raising the standard of the health of the community.

I want to refer for a moment to points made by previous speakers. Some Deputies were inclined to dwell on the management end of the scheme. Earlier I made the point that if we were to move towards better hospital units we could only do so with better management. We are told that management represents what about ½p in the £ would produce, say, on the local rates. The Minister did fairly well during the year in this regard. When we came to strike a rate the argument was raised that we were in an area of increasing costs. We are all aware of the fact that down through the years 50 per cent of the cost was allocated from the resources of the Department of Health. We used to receive a supplementary grant over and above that figure. This year the Minister stepped in and arranged that the rate in any health area would not be deemed to be raised above 30p in the £. This was a distinct relief to members of local authorities. Otherwise costs would have worked out at roughly twice this figure. Instead of a moderate increase of 30p in the £ we would have had an increase of double that amount. I heard no comment on this from any previous speaker. I am not saying it was not recognised by some speakers.

When we talk about rising costs in the health services we must realise that we are trying to spread those costs all around as evenly as possible. There are those who would advocate an outright comprehensive health system. Unfortunately, in our circumstances, and having regard to the scope of the costs, people who advocate a comprehensive health system without referring to what it would cost are talking like people on a champagne income when, in fact, our income is more akin to a soda water income. In the whole context of providing better health services we will have to move in steps.

We also know that money had to be provided to cover the increased cost of drugs and medicines. When members of local authorities or members of health boards criticise rising costs, and criticise the increased costs in the voluntary hospitals, I would suggest that we have to take account of the advantages to health authorities of being able to send their patients to the voluntary hospitals. There is a distinct advantage in this.

This year health boards were voted 50 per cent on health expenditure, plus 9 per cent in supplementary grants, plus a sum which was made available from the general capitation fund to cover deficits in voluntary hospitals. All these measures make a difference to health boards. A health board who send a patient to a voluntary hospital are never called upon to pay the full cost of the services in respect of that patient. If we take all these elements into account, the amount the patient pays and the actual cost of keeping that patient, we see that the elements I mentioned give a distinct advantage to the health authority. I am referring to the patient sent by the health authority to a voluntary hospital outside their own area.

At this point in time we must pay tribute to the Irish Hospitals Trust Fund. Down through the years this fund was in the background providing large sums of money in aid of voluntary hospitals, adding up to a total of roughly £90 million. I suggest that this has made a vast difference in the standards of hospitals here. If we had to find this sort of money on a yearly basis for the Exchequer, we would be in a much more lowly position. A word of thanks is merited by the Irish Hospitals Sweepstakes. No community and no Government could raise the volume of money raised by that body. The point I am trying to make is that one is inclined to forget the extent to which a patient from a health board area is subsidised in a voluntary hospital. It is sometimes thought that the payments which patients were called on to make up to the introduction of the contributory scheme, made some difference. It was only a very nominal sum. Even the proceeds of the contribution of £7 a year for the middle income group is a very small sum in the context of hospitalisation. People are not sufficiently alive to the hazards today in the field of health. If they were they would take more advantage of the voluntary health insurance scheme. Everybody not covered by the middle income group scheme should be a contributor to the voluntary health insurance scheme because the more people covered by the scheme the stronger the fund and the stronger the fund the better the terms for the patient. I am a little surprised that now that we have reached a reasonable level of affluence in certain directions we have not a greater number covered by voluntary health insurance. I think it is incumbent on every person whose income is above the maximum for the middle income group scheme to become a contributor to voluntary health.

The Minister said that some degree of balance had to be maintained in the running of hospitals and that this was a factor to be taken into account when talking about increased costs, balance in the sense that capitation grants had to be adjusted upwards this year and that a certain sum of money had to be devoted by the Minister to meeting the deficits in voluntary hospitals. We all know it is incumbent on the community to see to it that voluntary hospitals do not go too far into debt. If they do, they run down like a worn out clock not worth winding. We cannot have that today in our health system.

According to statistics supplied by the Minister, the death rate per 1,000 of the population has fallen below that for the previous five year period. This is a welcome trend. It is the lowest rate recorded for this country and this is good news. The number of deaths from heart disease also fell and this is an indication that the Minister is making some inroads on the incidence of this disease. Unfortunately, lung cancer tends to maintain an increasing rate. The Minister has made many comments on this during the year. It has been said that he is too squeamish about this matter. I think he is in no way squeamish in urging that we get this under control. Hence the pamphlets issued on the incidence of heavy smoking and so on. They are points we should take into account as members of health authorities and we should do what we can to conform with them and to work as a team in the health system.

The record also shows that the infant mortality rate is being cut down. On former occasions here I commented on this and at one stage a few years ago I said our rate was poor by comparison with other countries. Now we have caught up and this is a sign of the work accomplished in the health field generally. As well, life expectancy has lengthened and stands at a comparatively reasonable level. A few years ago our statistics were not so satisfactory in this respect.

The figures revealed also that the birth rate is going up and that we have more and earlier marriages. This is another encouraging trend. If people are married younger women come to the point of maternity younger and I am sure this is more progress the House welcomes. The Minister referred to the fact that because of earlier marriages the point at which maternity occurs is lower. Hand in hand with this trend is the fact that the family size is tending to limit itself. While people are being married younger, the incidence of first and second births are higher than subsequent births and therefore the anxiety of those Members of the House who postulate national family planning loses its edge.

The Minister also told us that better accommodation is being provided in maternity hospitals and that to bring this about he had some members of his Department in consultation with hospital authorities who cater for the maternity end of the scheme. It is important at this stage that we should move to improve maternity units. It is noticeable in my locality that domiciliary delivery is on the way out. I suppose there are reasons for that but I remember long ago when the late Dr Ryan was piloting the mother and child scheme through the House in the face of criticism, that he said he hoped domiciliary deliveries would predominate. The trend has gone the other way for many reasons. One of the chief reasons is the better accommodation provided in maternity units. I am glad to see the Minister has his own team dealing with this matter and that we can hope that teamwork on the part of the hospital authorities catering for the mother and child scheme will still further improve the system.

I referred a moment ago to voluntary limitation of families and said there are those in the House who would postulate planning from cradle to grave. I ask those people to look around and read reports on what is happening in other countries. I suppose politicians sometimes have a tendency to dabble in all sorts of schemes, sometimes with good intentions, but in my experience well-intentioned people sometimes do more harm than good. Some politicians want to encourage legislation regarding family limitation but if we look at the countries practising national family planning we will see that despite all kinds of liberties, shall we say, in prevention, contraception, advice and all the rest of it, in some of those countries the rate of abortion is higher than the birth rate.

I therefore say to those who are in too big a hurry to rush into schemes calculated to limit the size of families, to hasten slowly and look around and see what is happening where all this alleged liberty obtains. We are getting along all right on the family advice we have, some of it derived from various religious denominations and other bodies and some of it not so derived. We should leave it at that and not move in a direction which might create more problems in the end.

The Minister's replies to a number of queries on this matter during the month seem to indicate that his case is established. I shall not go further on this point but we should use commonsense when we deal with matters concerning the family. If we consider the Minister's summary of his aims, and I think the aims of the House, to bring about a better health system I do not think we can disagree with the points he made. We should do all we can to raise the image of preventive medicine, establish a better image for county clinics, make them reception centres for outpatients and provide the best advice and medicine. We would thus lessen the load on hospitals.

We should move towards earlier detection of disease. The tendency in the past was for the patient to keep away from the doctor. Our aim should be to bring the doctor to the patient and see that close contact is maintained between them. In the past the dispensary system was inclined to lessen the image of the family doctor who is very important. I am glad the Minister is having this matter examined. The aim should be to boost the family doctor's importance and move towards encouraging the grouping of family doctors for consultation to provide at outpatient centres or clinics the best possible accommodation and so reduce the numbers entering hospital. If we can achieve this in a couple of years we shall have made some progress towards better health.

This Estimate has been comprehensively dealt with in the debate and I do not intend to delay the House unduly. We all welcome health services which are necessary but I want to deal with their financing. The impact of health services on the ordinary county rate at present is, in the opinion of many ratepayers, a crushing one. A large proportion of the cost of health services falls on the rates. At present in County Cork we pay a charge of £2.3231. There are three rating areas and in north Cork, where I live, the rate is £6.5299 and the health charge on that is £2.2321, over one-third of the total. This falls on all ratepayers who in all categories are already paying health charges by way of the 15p per week for insurable people or the new £7 scheme or the voluntary health scheme. Altogether, these make a big demand on the incomes of both workers and farmers and everybody else. It is high time that a new scheme of financing the health charges was introduced. I cannot see great difficulty in doing so. In an emergency money can be found without the need for any basic policy. Large sums can be found and spent on projects, some of which, to say the least of it, are of doubtful benefit. Last year, and again this year, the Minister made a gesture. He gave a special grant which resulted in the rate for health being limited to 30p in the £. I see from his statement that, if he had not made this gesture, the health rate would have increased to 48p in the £. All he really gave us, therefore, was the benefit of 18p in the £. Really, I do not thank him for it. The Minister should take his courage in his hands now and freeze the health rate. That would be some consolation to the ratepayers. On the other hand, he could go the whole hog and finance health from the Exchequer. That should not present any great problems. As I said, money can apparently always be found.

As a result of our entry into the EEC I am sure large sums will become available to the Exchequer. I think, too, that a big percentage of the moneys provided for social services could be directed towards relieving health charges on the rates. Health represents the highest contribution in the rates. Incidentally, the charge on the rates in Britain is only 7 per cent; in Northern Ireland it is only 4 per cent. Here it is 26 per cent. I am quite sure the health services in both Britain and Northern Ireland are quite adequate and are fully availed of. Rates are a crushing burden on the people and health charges make the burden that much worse. A different method of financing health will have to be found. The Minister can freeze the rates or he can finance health through the Exchequer. That should not present any problems.

I am glad home health services are being improved. It is pathetic to see so many old people in hospitals and institutions. These old people should not be removed from their normal environment. In these hospitals and institutions they are isolated from their families and their homes. I think these institutions and hospitals provide a wonderful service; the staffs are dedicated to looking after the aged. We are told that about 75 per cent of health charges go towards the maintenance of hospitals and institutions. Surely this money could be directed towards ensuring that these old people are kept at home in their normal environment. The Minister said that health boards will be asked to examine ways in which such a service could be provided and it was hoped to utilise voluntary agencies in this regard. These agencies are doing wonderful work and they are to be commended but, if the district nursing service and other local services were improved, relatives would be encouraged to look after their own aged.

With regard to the recommendation in the FitzGerald Report about the downgrading of hospitals, it is now some three years since that report was published and discussed here. I remember telling the Minister then that he would hear more about this recommendation and I was right in my prophecy, because the matter has become very controversial throughout the area for which Mallow County Hospital caters. I am not speaking about Mallow town but about the large hinterland.

In no uncertain terms the Minister told Deputy Dick Barry last March that he had no intention of going against the FitzGerald Report. On Tuesday, 7th March, as reported at column 1040 of the Official Report, the Minister said he wanted to make it clear to the Deputy that under no circumstances would he go in the opposite direction to the recommendations of the FitzGerald Report, recommended by consultants over the length and breadth of Europe. He repeated that in no circumstances would he go in the opposite direction. He said he was willing to live with the status quo.

At this stage the status quo is not good enough because the people can see that in the near future the traditional services they have in that area will be taken away from them. They are to be hived off either to the Limerick Regional Hospital or to the suggested new regional hospital in Cork. In my career as a public representative I have heard a great deal about that regional hospital in Cork. It has been discussed for 25 years. I know that some steps have been taken to provide it now but I do not need to be a prophet to tell the Minister that it will not be there for the next ten years or longer.

The Minister said that the status quo is good enough. He has been told in the Press and by Members of this House that it will not be accepted as good enough by the 70,000 people concerned.

In the FitzGerald Report it is stated:

Mallow County Hospital is a 98-bed hospital in a modern building providing a general medical, surgical, and maternity service and staffed at consultant level by one surgeon and one physician. This hospital is 23 miles from Cork and is serving an area from which access to Cork is easy. The area north of it around Rathluire is convenient to Limerick. We recommend that the role of this hospital be changed to that of a community health centre and that its acute hospital functions be transferred to Cork and Limerick hospital centres as appropriate.

Turn the county hospital into a glorified county home! That is good enough for the people of north Cork. Second-class citizens! If the Minister were here he would probably tell me he was bored with this matter. I am sorry he is not here because that would lend strength to my voice in speaking on behalf of those people.

I have no doubt that he would be here but for the fact that he is in the Seanad. The Deputy's remarks will be conveyed to him in due course.

He heard them before.

We will hear them again.

He will hear a lot more before this is over.

That is what started all this controversy: the suggestion that we should make a glorified county home out of Mallow County Hospital. It was opened as a county hospital some 15 years ago. It was built long before that but for certain reasons it was not handed over to the county council until about that time. It was a military hospital in its early days and it was taken over as a sanatorium when the emergency was over Eventually, it became the county hospital for north Cork, a very badly needed county hospital. Until then people had to go to Fermoy where there was an old county hospital.

Since Mallow County Hospital was opened an excellent service has been provided by the staff in general and by dedicated surgeons. Special mention should be made of Mr. Hanley who was so dedicated that he worked day and night. He had to leave because he could not live an ordinary family life under those circumstances. Under pressure from the retention committee and other people we now have a second replacement surgeon. The first replacement surgeon left. The present surgeon is an excellent young man, providing a wonderful service. I was speaking to the matron quite recently and she told me what a wonderful surgeon he is and how hard he is working. She made the point that she was afraid he would not stay there long because it is not possible for any man to work night and day and live an ordinary life.

It was suggested by the retention committee and recommended by the regional health board on a majority vote of 19 to 9 that the Minister should upgrade Mallow County Hospital and integrate it with the Mount Alverna Hospital three miles away. This would create a unit in which it would be possible to have at least two consultants and two physicians. It was suggested that if the recommendation was not accepted by the Minister a sworn public inquiry should be held. Be that as it may, the recommendation came up from the regional health authority and was not accepted by the Minister although he had said that he had no intention of going against the FitzGerald Report.

The situation—I suppose the Minister will say it is the status quo, that there is work going on there—is that it is not only the present but the future services that are worrying the people. These are in grave doubt in view of the Minister's pigheaded attitude to all sections of the people.

Cork Health Authority, we are told, has now purchased Mount Alverna Hospital for a psychiatric hospital. With due respect to them, whoever the advisers were in this matter, they should be—and I have no hesitation in saying it—put away somewhere themselves. This matter is too serious for joking but that is how it is being treated. It has been pointed out here by others that it is hard to understand how this home could be considered for the purpose envisaged. It is surrounded by hazards, a factory at each side of it, the Blackwater on the north side, the railway at the south and there is a very busy road at the front gate. If this is accepted as a place for psychiatric patients it will have to be made like Long Kesh and completely sealed off from the surrounding hazards.

The local people still hope it will not be used for that purpose and that the Minister will reconsider the position and integrate it with the Mallow Hospital to make one unit which would justify the provision of two consultants, physicians and the necessary staff. The Minister knows this matter is not being taken lightly. An active protest committee is pursuing it at all levels and recently protest meetings were held all over the area and were addressed by parish priests, curates and persons or pastors, all supporting the protest vigorously. They rightly pointed out that if democracy is what we are told it is the people are entitled to retain those services and no Minister should attempt to remove them. The people are paying for the services and are entitled to them just as the people in the cities and urban areas are. But the position is that any old thing is good enough for the rural people. No wonder so many are running from the rural areas because a responsible Government are denying them the services to which they are entitled. This is being done in a phased way. They took away little schools out of the parish; then they raided the garda barracks and closed them and sold some of them. Now, they want to deny hospitalisation to the people and they are also raiding the secondary schools in an effort to centralise everything. The attitude is: "Damn the country people; anything is good enough for them. They are second-rate citizens."

I can tell the Minister, as I said before, that this will not be accepted. But he is a man with a one-track mind in this regard and I am somewhat disappointed in him. I hope, however, that he will change his mind. I think he has decided to receive a deputation from the advisory committee with members of the retention committee. That committee might now be enlarged because I saw recently in the papers that the people of the country are so concerned about this matter—there are 18 hospitals involved —that a national committee has been set up to defend the rights of the people. Who could say a few years ago that in 1972 it would be necessary to have such committees to defend our rights against a native Government? But that is the position due to the Minister's attitude. He has been very emphatic about it and has lost his temper a few times over it. His attitude is—and I shall repeat it—that he has no intention of going against FitzGerald.

Now we in this party, and others I presume, have been told by members of the Government party that we are making political capital, a political football, out of it. If defending the rights of the people is making political capital I am happy to do it. Members of the Minister's own party have stated that they are 100 per cent behind the retention committee in Mallow. I accept that. However, there was a meeting in Mallow recently called specially to get the views and policies of all parties in regard to Mallow County Hospital. It was a very representative meeting. All political parties were informed that they were required to put one spokesman on the platform to inform the meeting of the view of his party as regards Mallow County Hospital and its integration with Mount Alverna. My party were represented by Deputy Dick Barry. I was there also. Sinn Féin were represented. Aontacht Éireann were represented. Indeed, we were informed at the meeting that Mr. Boland had a special executive meeting in Mallow on that evening in order to tell his spokesman what their policy was. We had a member of the Labour Party there. There was one conspicious absentee, a member of the Minister's party. There was, in fairness, a letter read from Deputy Cronin, the Minister for Defence, apologising for not being able to attend the meeting. That was accepted, but Deputy Cronin or his party could have found a spokesman for that meeting. There was one member of his party there but he had no instructions and could not open his mouth. Despite all we have read and listened to, the Minister's party were conspicuously absent from that meeting. If they were as keen as they said they were, they would have come and disclosed the views of their party. There were plenty of members of the Fianna Fáil Party available to act as deputy for the Minister for Defence but they were not there. This brought home to me, and to the people who were there, that despite the lipservice paid by the party they accepted the Minister's approach. They have to live with it. It is a matter for themselves. However, I thought it only right that it should be placed on record. Neither my party nor any other party are making political capital out of it. They are elected as public representatives and it is their duty to highlight the grievances of their constituents. I am quite happy if it is called politics. Politics is a tough game but this is what politics is all about, that you are elected to do a job and you have to look after the interests of your people.

The present position is that we have an excellent surgeon in Mallow but the matron informs me that he will not stay there long because he is overworked. I do not see how it could upset the FitzGerald Report if the Minister reconsidered this matter and upgraded the hospital and integrated it with Mount Alverna. It would be a very serviceable unit.

I have newspaper comments here which reflect the opinion of some of the people concerned. This is from the Corkman of 4th March. It is headed “The Minister and the Health Board”.

I quote:

There is not a reader of this or any other newspaper in this country who should need to be reminded of the frequency with which members of the Government publicly invoke the principles of democracy. It can also be said that any Minister has not spoken more often or at greater length on democratic values than the Deputy Head of the Government and Minister for Health, Mr. Erskine Childers.

The will of the majority of people, freely expressed as to the requirements of the people, is the masthead to which Mr. Childers, in scores of speeches, has nailed his colours as a citizen, a politician and a public administrator. From him, as from few others of our news makers, we would be entitled to expect that his deeds would conform to his words.

It is easy to give the old lipservice until it comes down to action. It continued:

We would, therefore, find it difficult to exaggerate the profound disillusion, not to mention shock, experienced by the people of north and north-east Cork as a result of the attitude adopted by the Minister in the matter of the county hospital at Mallow.

In our news columns this week we reflect the storm of protest that has arisen from the extraordinary letter which Mr. Childers has addressed to the Southern Health Board.

That reflects the attitude of mind of the people who are so concerned with the future of Mallow Hospital. I see a heading here: "Mr. Childers says No to Mallow County Hospital." Despite what he said, that he would not interfere with the decision of the health board, he hammered it and has stood over it since.

It is hard to understand why any Minister can dictate to the people of an area in this fashion: "It is not what you want but what I think is good for you." We had sympathy with our brothers in the North when they were driven on the streets to look for their civil rights but is the Minister aware that he has driven the people of this large area on to the streets to demand their rights from an Irish Minister? I am quite sure he will get his answer at the next political confrontation in that area because this is the Dublin brand of bureaucracy being imposed on those unfortunate people.

It is extraordinary that when the health board took a decision on an important matter, immediately the Minister said to them: "I cannot accept that. It does not fit in with my views or policy. We will deny the people of that area their rights and privileges." After all our forefathers fought for we thought that when we had an Irish Government there would not be any necessity for such representations. It has happened, despite all the flag-waving we had about the regional health boards. We find that they are mere rubber-stamps for the Minister. At this late stage I appeal to him that when he receives the deputation—he refused to meet all deputations earlier but he now says he will receive them—that he will have some good news for the people of Mallow and that he will admit he was wrong and they were right.

We all welcome an improvement in the health services which are foremost in the minds of all elected representatives. However, we are continually meeting ratepayers throughout the country and they are the people who find most difficulty in meeting their expenses. Before long some action must be taken by the Government towards introducing some other ways and means than the rates of providing money for the health services. In my constituency the rates are now more than £6 in the £ and this is an intolerable burden.

I should like the Minister to clear up one point in relation to the limited eligibility contributions of £7 per year. In my constituency there are many families, perhaps two brothers and a sister, one of whom may be married, who have more than one valuation. Instead of one contribution of £7, each member of those families gets a demand for £7 if the valuation is less than £60. I am being approached continually by such people asking to have this matter clarified and I hope the Minister will clear it up for us.

I wish now to deal with hospitalisation and other general matters in relation to the health services. Early in 1971 in my constituency we were told that a welfare home would be provided in the near future. Immediately after that Moher would be provided with a similar home. Neither of these homes has since been heard of. Now the problem in my constituency is a very serious one. The younger generations have left and only the old people are still there. They are urgently in need of these homes. A few years ago we had a very severe winter and many people died simply because they could not be admitted to either hospitals or institutions. The accommodation was just not there. If 40 beds were provided in Manorhamilton the needs of that part of the county would be catered for and a similar provision in Moher in South Leitrim would cater for the needs of that part of the county. There has been a home in Moher for years. It is threatened with closure but the people will protest. I hope some move will soon be made to provide these homes.

Again, a similar home was needed in Carrick-on-Shannon and, after long delay, the Department spent £200,000 on the provision of a home. That is a substantial sum. About 12 months ago we had a big day in Carrick-on-Shannon at the official opening of this building. In the Leitrim Observer, following a meeting of the NorthWestern Regional Health Board, there is the bannerline: “Section of county home condemned”. The report says:

A section of St. Patrick's Home, Carrick-on-Shannon, containing 18 beds, as well as staff accommodation, has been condemned by a medical officer from the Department of Health. All patients have now been moved out and alternative accommodation will have to be found for the staff still living in that section of the hospital.

This is a sad reflection on the Department of Health. This should have been an outstanding job. Supervision must have been very lax indeed. If one applies for a grant for an ordinary reconstruction job or for building a new house, one waits eight or 12 months before one gets the project off the ground. A move cannot be made without an inspector coming down to inspect. It may be a matter of a mere £200. A building which cost £200,000 is condemned some three years later. I trust the Department will ensure better supervision in the future and that no one will be allowed to get away with slipshod work. It is no wonder taxation is so high. The necessary work will have to be done now at the cost of another substantial sum of money.

One half of the home in Sligo will soon be completed. It is an excellent job. There is, however, some delay in proceeding with the second stage. The Manorhamilton home must be got off the ground as quickly as possible because there is a crying need for this kind of accommodation. Were it not for the Trojan work done by the Nazareth Sisters in Sligo many aged people would find themselves in serious difficulties. I have here a letter from a patient who could not be kept at home and who was put into a nursing home in Edgeworthstown, on the clear understanding that she would not have long to wait until accommodation would be found for her in Carrick-on-Shannon. The letter is dated 15th June, 1972; there is no hope of this woman being accommodated in Carrick-on-Shannon. The family would not be looking for this accommodation were it not for the fact that the patient lost her memory and it was a case of getting her into some hospital. We get these letters and we make representations. We get a reply but there is no solution in the reply. Accommodation is not available in Carrick-on-Shannon. I appeal to the Minister to get on with this job as quickly as possible.

I was a member of the board of St. Columban's Hospital for a long time until it was taken over by the regional health board. For 20 years protests were made about the condition of the kitchen and the laundry and the provision of accommodation for the nursing staff. Progress has been made in providing accommodation for the nurses quite convenient to the hospital, but no start has yet been made on improving the kitchen and the laundry which have been out of date for the past 30 or 40 years. The kitchen where good food has to be prepared and cooked is not what you would expect to find in a hospital. If other people provided similar accommodation they would be reported.

Year in and year out complaints were made and we were told the Department were just about to move, and that we would be hearing from them immediately. We were told the architect was preparing plans, but when I first visited that hospital the architect had prepared so many plans and changed them so often that his fees were over £5,000. The kitchen and laundry in this hospital have still not been improved. That is no inducement to people to work on the staff. If the relatives of the mental patients knew the conditions there, they would not be impressed.

When I first became a public representative in the 1950s I visited hospitals —if you could call them hospitals— where TB patients were catered for. There was a lamp lighting and a smoking fire. The doctor put his head around the door and went away quickly. The inter-Party Government razed them to the ground and provided new hospitals, with the result that TB practically disappeared within a few years. Money was scarce in those days —I agree that building was not as costly as it is today—but good hospitals were erected and we have not been afraid of TB since. There is no stigma attached to TB now. The patient goes to a good hospital and in a short time he is back home bigger and better than ever.

Why cannot St. Columban's Hospital be improved? It has given great service and employed great staff. The staff acquitted themselves admirably during a strike. Precautions were taken and the patients were not left at any risk. As my colleague said, money can be found when an emergency arises. The money was found to deal with the problem of TB. Money invested in St. Columban's Hospital would pay good dividends in the long run.

Medical and dental examinations of schoolgoing children should be more frequent and should apply to all school-going childern. At the moment the children are checked on once a year only and, if a child is not at school that day, he is not examined. We have only one orthodontic hospital in Dublin city. There was a three-year waiting list in that hospital and there was such a long list of applicants that the waiting list was closed. Hundreds of children are waiting for this type of treatment. Occasionally it is given in the provinces but I should like it to be given more frequently. There are children in the Enniscrone country who are urgently awaiting it. I hope that the new health services will provide an improvement. Parents have told me that if they brought their children to Dublin and paid for this treatment the children could have it within a week but under the Health Act they have to wait for about three years. That is not fair to people who are unable to pay.

I have been approached by parents of children with a speech impediment. There is a very limited number of teachers qualified to help these children. If something could be done to provide more teachers, it would be a great consolation to young boys and girls who have an impediment and who could possibly make a complete recovery if they had the right person to teach them.

I have made representations on behalf of people who were a long time on a hospital waiting list and I was told that their complaint was not serious. When a person has a complaint, even if it is regarded as not being serious by a doctor, it is serious to the person. I was approached by a bank manager who said that if one of his employees did not get immediate treatment he would probably die, and that he was suffering desperately. Something should be done immediately to get rid of the long waiting list. A complaint which may seem small to a doctor can be a serious worry to a patient. I remember a young patient who had a cyst coming to me saying she was worried that it might become cancerous. However, the hospital authorities did arrange to have an operation carried out and she was out in a week. It would be very much appreciated if treatment could be speeded up.

There is also the problem of patients such as some I knew who left hospital during the strike and were told they would be sent to Dublin immediately the services were back to normal. That was in March. One of those patients had a very serious kidney complaint and he is still waiting. I have a letter from him here describing his sufferings. I have been in touch with a regional health board member in my area and I hope that patient will soon be called for treatment. I know Dublin hospitals and doctors are very busy but this is a serious case. We can imagine how he is suffering while waiting. In another case a patient was to be back in last February or March but I shall have to call to the hospital today to see when he will be called. I hope that with the new services the Minister will be able to reduce or eliminate this waiting list. In fact, it is mounting. People are more hospital-minded than ever before and doctors are sending more people to hospital because it will mean a quicker and easier recovery.

On the matter of patients in mental hospitals and county homes, I said once at a Sligo meeting and again in this House, that no allowance was more appreciated than the 50s per week paid to the relatives caring for an aged person. Instead of having many people sent to institutions or mental hospitals they could be kept in their homes much more cheaply. A young couple raising a family may have an aged man and woman in the home and it may be hard for them to manage but if there was an allowance—even if the £2.50 were increased substantially—and if the young people were asked to do so. I have no doubt many of the old people would be kept at home.

In the Irish Independent of Saturday, June, 24th there was a report which applied to Dublin:

The board adopted the radical Development of Mental Health Services Report prepared by Professor Ivor Browne, Programme Manager for Special Hospital Care, at a committee meeting and it will be presented publicly at the next meeting of the board in about 10 days....

Dr. Browne states that half the population of St. Brendan's and St. Ita's Hospitals is composed of mentally handicapped and geriatric patients. The two hospitals have a combined psychiatric population of 1,350 of which about 1,000 are long-stay. These, under his programme, would be resettled in lodgings....

What applies to those hospitals could apply equally to country hospitals. If some of these people were sent to rural areas it would be much easier to keep them than in towns. An allowance given to the relations would solve many of the problems. Dr. Browne said they could live in groups of tens, twenties and sixes, according to their frame of mind. If the allowance were given many of them would be kept at home and might make a considerable degree of recovery.

Again, I appeal to the Minister to consider increasing the allowance because where there is any hope of the aged person being kept out of hospital he should be kept out. It is better to pay the allowance to the relations rather than have long-staying patients in hospital where in the first few months some relations will visit them; then they will be visited once in a while and if they live long enough nobody may go to see them at all. Many aged people are heartbroken on leaving homes, where they have been happy, and going into institutions which no matter how comfortable or bright they may be, are still institutions. Whether these people have come from a large or a small home, it was their castle.

I must say that the members of the regional health boards are dedicated to the job they are doing.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

We know Deputy McLaughlin did not do that.

Fine Gael succeeded in breaking up two meetings of the House.

A choice of doctor is needed in rural areas. There is often only one medical practitioner to cover a large area. Some incentive should be given to doctors to work in such areas. I come from a rural area and I know what doctors have to endure in that part of the country. These are mountainous areas perhaps 20 miles from a doctor. For the last 20 years we have been fighting in Leitrim to get doctors into various areas. A dispensary doctor cannot be got to stay at Geevagh in County Sligo. An incentive will have to be given to encourage doctors to stay in such places. The expenses of professional men today are very high and in an area such as I have described a doctor does not have that much of a return. In these areas people can find themselves far removed from a doctor or nurse in the event of an emergency.

I should like to know whether the regional health board are to go into operation in July as was promised by the Department. Some time before the regional health board took over there were discussions in Sligo between the county manager, the county council staff and the Department about the provision of a nurses' training school in Sligo. Sligo is an important centre because it is the key point between north, south and west. There is a big hospital there and the Minister should consider the provision of a training centre. To be convenient to home would be a great incentive to girls to train as nurses. There is a long waiting list in all hospitals of girls who want to train as nurses. If this school were provided many local girls would train as nurses. I know it would be a success.

In my constituency there is a centre for mentally handicapped children in Cregg House, known as Cregg Hospital. It provides an excellent service but there is no accommodation in it for boys. There is room for an extension there and there is urgent need for accommodation for mentally handicapped boys throughout Leitrim, Sligo and Mayo. It is sad to see parents with mentally handicapped boys unable to get accommodation for them. One parent approached me and I got in touch with the St. John of God community who gave me a long list of homes. Unfortunately, all of them had long waiting lists and the boy could not be accommodated.

I know families with boys of 12, 13 and 14 years who have to live at home because of this serious lack of accommodation. It is extremely difficult for the parents and for the other children in such families and I urge the Minister as speedily as possible to provide extra accommodation for such children. Even those who are not so badly handicapped should be accommodated in homes and educated in preparation for jobs of some sort later in life. It is particularly disturbing to see boys being admitted to mental hospitals and living in them among adult patients. This is an urgent need and I am sure not a single Deputy would begrudge money spent on the provision of such accommodation.

So urgent is the last point made by Deputy McLaughlin in regard to mentally handicapped children that I shall open my remarks on the Estimate by referring to it. When one realises the enormity of this problem one becomes anxious that we will get to grips with it with the urgency it calls for. On 31st December last there were 2,290 mentally handicapped children accommodated in special residential centres operated by voluntary bodies. An even more important figure is that on 31st March, 1971, there were 895 mentally handicapped children on waiting lists of health boards for admission to residential centres. In other words, out of every three children accommodated one was awaiting admission. This clearly indicates the urgency of the situation.

Almost as serious is the position that there are 895 mentally handicapped children living in their homes with parents and other children in the family. If you take these families as having an average of four or five children it means that about 5,000 lives are being affected by this situation. For instance, I know a father of such a child who had a job as a driver. The child is severely handicapped and wakes up at night upset and crying. Of course, that child disturbed the entire family and consequently the father had to give up his job because of inability to sleep at night. His whole life was disturbed and so were those of his wife and the other members of the family.

Another person was in touch with me and I in turn got in touch with the county council, the health board and the Department of Health. There are 12 children in that house and, of course, the entire household is affected. This is very serious. I do not often throw bouquets at the Minister but, in this instance, I believe he has been making every effort to cope with this problem. It is vitally important that the waiting list should be cleared as quickly as possible. We have been told that there are plans to provide an additional 1,400 places in the next few years. About 500 of these will be for children and 900 for adults. The provision of adult places will result in the release of accommodation for children. Many of the children in these institutions are transferred to mental hospitals when they reach 16, 17 and 18 years of age. There is reluctance on the part of nurses and doctors to transfer these boys and girls into mental hospitals and that results in beds being held which should be available for the 895 mentally handicapped children. There should, of course, be some kind of intermediate institution provided for these boys and girls. They should not be transferred into mental hospitals. I hope the Minister will look into this aspect of the problem. Both the mildly handicapped and the moderately handicapped, with specialist training and care, could be equipped to earn their livelihoods. I throw out this suggestion to the Minister. I trust he will examine it. There is an obligation on all of us to make every effort to accommodate these people, and, if we fail in that effort, then we are failing in our duty.

Statistics are very interesting. At the moment 81.5 per cent of severely mentally handicapped children under 16 years of age are in residential care. That means that 18.5 per cent are not in residential care. They are living at home. Not much can be done for the severely mentally handicapped. They cannot be trained to lead near normal lives. They are, of course, a source of great stress and strain in their homes and it is imperative that they should be provided with residential care without delay. It is very disappointing to be unable to help the parents of these children when they make representations to their public representatives. It is like beating one's head against a stone wall. These children can disrupt family life. They can cause tremendous hardship in the home. As I say, something will have to be done immediately to solve the problem.

The Minister said that 380 extra places will be supplied in 1972, 375 in 1973 and 650 in 1974-75. While statistics may have a certain value, they are not a satisfactory answer in terms of human life. We should not regard this problem as a statistical one. Waiting until 1974-75 will not be easy if there is a child unable to do the slightest thing for himself. The mother cannot even go out to get the messages or bring her other children to or from school.

Normally, the husband goes out to work at 8 or 9 o'clock and does not get back until 6 o'clock in the evening. The mother is with the child all day. She is confined to the house while the other children are at school and must try to get somebody else to do the errands. This is important from the point of view of the husband, the wife and the other children, but the person we must think about is the child who is mildly, moderately, or severely mentally handicapped. That child needs attention in a residential hospital immediately, and not in 1974 or 1975. I join with other speakers in appealing to the Minister to look at this matter in terms of human lives. It is a problem with which we will have to get to grips immediately.

I should also like schools and hospitals to be provided for the group over 16 years of age instead of transferring them to mental hospitals for adults which are not suitable for these young boys and girls. They should be looked after in separate homes. I should like to pay tribute to the Minister because he has made great strides in this matter. I should also like to pay tribute to the voluntary organisations who are doing tremendous work. We have these voluntary organisations at parish, county and national level. It is wonderful to see so many people recognising the importance of this problem and prepared to give their time and their ability in the interest of this very important section of our community.

A problem which is seldom mentioned in this House—people are inclined to shy away from it—is the problem of alcoholism. The beer and whiskey industries are very important and must be treated with a certain amount of care in any statement on this problem. My father owned a licensed premises and I worked in the bar until I was about 20 years of age. I have a pretty good knowledge of all aspects of the licensed trade. There have been some complaints about publicans serving drink to children under age. I believe they are exaggerated. It is very difficult for a publican to know whether a person is under age. Most publicans are upright and excellent citizens and discharge their duties in an admirable fashion.

I think that would be a matter for the Estimate for the Department of Justice.

The point I want to make is that a number of people suffer from alcoholism. Nowadays alcoholism is regarded as a disease to be treated by doctors. For this reason I feel that what I am saying comes within the ambit of the Department of Health. At times people tend to look on the alcoholic as something of a joke. Much of what he does is regarded as good fun. I am sorry to say that at times because of his antics he is regarded as a joke. It is very sad when somebody becomes an alcoholic. Alcoholics Anonymous have helped enormously in combating alcoholism in Ireland. Unfortunately, we do not seem to recognise that an individual is an alcoholic until it is too late. A person can be a normal social drinker and take a few drinks at night. Then he starts taking more, and when it is too late he realises that he is hooked on drink as some people become hooked on drugs.

When an alcoholic has been out late at night drinking he wakes up the following morning and does not know what happened the night before. He is wondering whether he insulted somebody, or crashed his car. He is wondering whether he did something that he cannot remember. In this instance normally many of these people, out of worry and anxiety, go drinking the following day. It becomes compulsive. For this reason it is important that we begin to cope with alcoholism in its early stages. It is a disease and should be treated as such.

I cannot say whether any study has been made of the percentage of people who are convicted of crime in which alcohol was a contributory factor, but I believe it is a contributing factor in quite a number of cases. I would go so far as to say that approximately 85 per cent of those convicted of all types of crime are people who found alcohol to be one of the causes of their crime. People drink for a variety of reasons, some because of social insecurity, some because of a feeling of social weakness, some because they need a form of drive and find alcohol gives them the necessary lift and confidence to face and combat life. Many think they can continue drinking without ill-effects. I am convinced that in 80 to 85 per cent of cases alcohol is a very big contributory factor in the commission of crime from petty offences up to the more serious crimes of murder, manslaughter, robbery with violence and so on.

This matter concerns the Department of Justice also and, as I feel that alcoholism is an illness, I think the Department of Health and the Department of Justice should work in conjunction with each other in regard to it. If we wish to look after the young people who are involved in crime at an early age and combat this tendency there is an onus on the Department of Health to educate boys and girls at school in regard to drinking habits. It might be useful to show the effect alcohol has on the system but that would scarcely be the real answer. Films and lectures of an educational type should be provided in schools about the good and ill-effects of drinking. This, in its way, would be very valuable.

Court welfare officers have been appointed in many district court areas and quite a number of these officers— the Minister might be able to shed more light on this—have had experience as male nurses in mental hospitals and so on. While they were appointed by the Department of Justice some of them were taken from hospitals and are people who were very closely involved with psychiatric cases. This covers many aspects of court work and in many cases these welfare officers help to uncover the private lives of individuals, study their health to see if a person is run down, if he has generally a poor level of health or if there has been illness in the family. I believe this service will have a tremendously good effect on many young people convicted of offences and for this reason I think the Department of Health should endeavour to conduct a study or survey to see if young offenders suffer from mental or physical illness, whether they have alcoholic tendencies and so on. I do not think any such study has taken place in this country yet and it should be undertaken as soon as possible.

When one realises how seriously the lives of young people convicted of criminal offences are affected and that there is a certain prejudice against them and people may not want to mix with them because of their record. I think the Minister will realise how important it is that such a survey should be undertaken. The Minister's Department could give a lead in this very important and urgent matter and the results would be most beneficial. Many young boys and girls who have had some differences of opinion with the law and have, in fact, broken it, have been suffering from either physical or mental deficiency. If these cases are investigated by doctors and psychiatrists many of these people can be helped. I have come across a few of them. After they have broken the law and had a conviction marked against them it is discovered that they were not really to blame for what they did because they were physically or mentally ill. Their ailments may not have been serious but they were conscious of their ailments and this made them shy, backward and retarded.

The Department of Health could help by having regular medical checkups and by giving lectures in the schools. Our school health service is not adequate at present. It needs a complete overhaul. I am sure many people in the Department will agree with me. In a radio interview about one and a half years ago the Minister said it was hoped to introduce a scheme under which a record would be kept of each child's health. I do not think this has been developed sufficiently. Under this scheme doctors would call to the schools at regular intervals and the children would have a complete medical check-up. This would start when the child was four or five years of age, and there would be regular examinations and a record kept of each pupil. If he transferred to another school his chart would go too. The doctor would have a case history for each child. It was hoped, I believe, that these records would follow whether they went to university or to work.

This is an excellent idea if fully implemented but I have made enquiries about it and I do not think it has got off the ground to a sufficient extent. If a child has an ailment, whether it is an ear, nose or throat ailment or a serious complaint, or a definite weakness, it could be noted at an early date and the necessary treatment given to the child. This is essential because many of the illnesses people carry into adult life could be noted at an early age and the necessary treatment given immediately. Many of these illnesses become more serious with the passage of time and treatment is not as beneficial later on as it would be at an early age. I hope the Minister will resurrect this scheme, re-invigorate it and get it going on a proper footing at every level of education. This scheme might be quite costly but the beneficial effects of it would be such that it would be well worthwhile. It would be beneficial to the children and to the mothers and fathers. I hope the Minister, when replying, will tell me exactly how this scheme is going at present, how far it has got and the number of examinations that have been carried out in the various schools. The scheme which it is to replace could only be described as an absolute farce. There were calls to the schools on a two or three year basis. They were of a haphazard nature. The child had his heart and lungs tested in a very general fashion and nothing else. This is not sufficient. If this new scheme is implemented properly it will have the greatest beneficial effects on the health of young boys and girls. Its effects will be seen in the health of our young men and women in years to come.

I should like to refer to dental treatment in schools. Dental treatment for the lower income group is totally inadequate. That may also apply in the middle income group. I have here a statement by the Minister for Health in regard to the number of personnel in the school dental service. The Minister pointed out in this House on 13th June, 1972, that there are 141 whole-time dental officers employed by health boards, whose work is mainly in the school dental service. It must be recognised that this number is totally inadequate. Assuming that there are 500,000 to 750,000 school children being looked after by 141 whole-time dental officers, one sees how inadequate the number of dentists is. A boy or girl who requires dental treatment, no matter what income group he or she belongs to, must pay for the service because of the inadequacy of the school dental service. I am not criticising the dentists employed by the health boards. It would be beyond the bounds of possibility for 141 whole-time dental officers to care for the number of children involved.

The Minister mentioned that there has been an increase of 43 in the number of dentists in the service over the past four years. The increase may be regarded as reasonable but the total number remains inadequate. The dental service must be improved. If proper dental treatment is not provided in time, teeth will decay and that will have serious effects on health. The number of dentists in the school dental service must be increased immediately.

The primary school year is 40 weeks. That means that the 141 dentists have only 40 weeks in which to provide dental treatment for school children. A case may require different forms of dental treatment, fillings, orthodontic treatment, special care and attention. The ratio of patients to dentist is too high. In these circumstances there is not sufficient time to allow for individual care and attention. Let us ask ourselves the question, who suffers if the dentist has not time to give a patient individual attention? It is the patient who suffers. A tooth that could be saved by being filled decays further if it is not filled and ultimately is a case for extraction. A suitable dentist-patient ratio is urgently required. This matter is of the utmost importance to persons in the lower income group who cannot afford to pay for private dental treatment. This is discrimination against the lower income groups. It is not perhaps a conscious act on the part of the Department. The position must be improved immediately. It is up to us to ensure that the dental service is brought up-to-date immediately. I do not know the salary scale of full-time dental surgeons in the service of a health board but it appears that it is not adequate. If this is so the salary should be increased and if there are difficulties in obtaining dentists for these jobs something should be done about it.

One of the main forms of employment for blind people is that of switchboard operators and telephonists. I asked the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs the number of people employed as switchboard operators and telephonists in the Dublin area and I was informed that it was 1,420. I asked a further question regarding the number of blind people employed in either capacity in the Dublin city area and I was told that no blind people were employed. On 13th June, 1972, Deputy Bruton asked the Minister for Health if he was satisfied that public authorities make sufficient efforts to provide employment for blind people. The Minister made the following reply:

A number of blind and partially-sighted persons are employed, namely as telephonists in the service of Government Departments, semi-State bodies and local authorities.

As regards telephonists, the general policy in the public sector is to secure the maximum number of appointments to such posts, having regard to the number of switchboard installations available which are capable of being handled by non-sighted operators.

While employment opportunities for blind persons outside the area of telephony are very limited, consideration is being given by my Department to the possibility of expanding the range and number of such posts in the public authority service.

It is important for us to remember that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has admitted that his Department do not employ any blind persons as telephonists or switchboard operators in the Dublin city area. On 7th June I raised in the House the matter of the employment of blind people because the chairman of the National Council for the Blind in Ireland had mentioned the matter at their annual general meeting.

At that meeting the chairman pointed out that there was a decreasing number of jobs being made available for blind people and this is why I asked the Minister this question. His reply disappointed me because this type of job is one that is suitable for blind people. I asked the Minister for Finance the policy of his Department with regard to the employment of blind telephonists and he replied that the policy of his Department, in co-operation with the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, was to promote as far as possible the employment of blind persons as telephonists and switchboard operators in Government Departments.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce replied to my Parliamentary question that his Department have no specific scheme of grants for assisting employers to equip business premises to provide employment for blind people. All of this is a matter for grave concern for the blind. Most of them are anxious to earn their livelihood. They do not want to be dependent on the State; they want to work each day and be paid for their work. From the replies given by the various Departments it appears that the Government have little regard for the blind people and the provision of employment for them. However, it is essential that some of the blind people should be provided with employment in Government Departments. So far, the various Departments have not done this.

The Department of Posts and Telegraphs employ some 19,205 persons but the Minister has stated that blind people are not employed as switchboard operators and telephonists in the Dublin city area. This is a matter of grave concern. The Government Departments should give the lead in this matter, particularly the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. Their example should encourage private businessmen to employ blind people. When Government Departments are not prepared to make an effort to employ blind people it is hard to expect business people to do so.

Last week the Minister said that in regard to telephonists it is the general policy of the public sector to secure the maximum number of appointments for them and he went on to say that the Department were examining the general position. I want him to tell us, when he is replying, when will he start examining the prospects of employment for blind people generally, particularly in view of the fact that so many of them can discharge their duties so efficiently. The Department of Health should give a lead to other Departments in this respect, especially in regard to switchboard operators. Indeed, it should be general Government policy, where possible, to employ blind people who are so anxious to do work and be paid for it.

Would the Deputy not include blind physiotherapists? The Department have fallen down there already.

The Deputy has already spoken.

We employed a blind physiotherapist in Limerick with complete success despite the opposition of the Department.

Deputy Enright must be allowed to make his speech.

I have covered that point adequately. I do not think the chairman of the National Council for the Blind——

I hope the Deputy will not become repetitive.

——would have made the statements he did if it was not a matter of worry to him. There are some other points I wish to raise, most of them in regard to the health boards. The scheme of choice of doctor can work very well in towns and villages but I am afraid there will be difficulty in obtaining doctors in country areas, particularly the more remote districts. There are three dispensary areas vacant in County Laois. They have been advertised and I feel sure there have been replies. I do not think the inducement of £500 is sufficient to get doctors to come and reside in these areas and I seriously suggest to the Minister that it should be trebled. It is essential that doctors should reside in these remote areas but the inducement must be made worthwhile.

In regard to the setting up of the health boards, there was discussion yesterday on the new health regulations but the acting chairman would not allow me to continue because, I was told, it was a matter for the Estimate. I shall, therefore, avail of this opportunity to mention on point of importance in this respect. We appear to be running a grave risk of having our health administration run from away up, a form of remote control, and we appear to be losing the personal touch that is so essential. There is a danger that the intimate relationship so necessary here may be lost.

Let us take a look at the system. We have, first of all, the advisory committees. These committees have power to advise the health boards. The health boards seem to come under the regional hospital boards. We then have Comhairle na nOspidéal and, on top of that, the Department of Health. There are so many lines of command it will be utterly impossible to know who is responsible to whom and who is answerable to whom. The important thing in health services is continuity and a personal relationship the whole way through. I have some experience of health services and, because there will now be so many lines of command, I believe there will be a complete break along these lines.

Have the members of the advisory committees power of consultation with the doctors? Have they any powers really with regard to health? To whom will the doctors be answerable? Is it to the advisory committees, the health boards, the hospital boards, Comhairle na nOspidéal or the Department of Health? This is something that will have to be resolved very, very soon. There seems to be a great deal of overlapping and a tremendous amount of duplication.

We talk about economies. Until now not half the number of people were involved in our health services. We should remember that the important person on whom to spend money where health is concerned is the patient. I believe that in future the cost of administration will run £ for £ with the cost of the patient.

The administration cost is 3½ per cent of the total amount.

We are spending nearly double what we spent in 1964.

The administration cost is very low by any standards.

I will table a question to the Minister within the next few days to enable the Minister to give me a detailed reply on this.

I have already given the information. I have given it twice. I have given the extra cost of the staff for the health boards; it is ½p in the £.

When did the Minister give that information?

I circulated it twice to Deputies. They have had two circulars containing a list of new hospital projects and a general analysis of the budget for this year, including the amounts occasioned by increases in remuneration and in the cost of the new services. They have also had a statement in regard to the total cost of the programme managers and the cost of that on the rates. The Deputy was given that information. He should look it up.

I will have an opportunity during Question Time of looking it up. I want to know the cost of providing the extra personnel on the health boards and the cost of the extra buildings required. I want to know the cost of the extra meetings that will have to be held, the cost of the advisory committees, of the health boards and the hospital boards, and of Comhairle na nOspidéal. I believe the figure is much greater than 3½ per cent. We are beginning to lose touch with the patient because of all the duplication and overlapping and it is inevitable that the patient will lose out.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Top
Share