Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 28 Mar 1973

Vol. 265 No. 2

Election of Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Mr. J. Lynch

Tairgim:

Go gceapfar an Teachta Séamus Ó Tonnaigh mar Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Is maith is eol dom go bhfuil Séamus Ó Tonnaigh oilte go maith—is féidir liom a ráa, sár-oilte—chuig an post seo. Ní amháin go bhfuil togha na Gaeilge aige ach tá an-chleachtadh aige ar chúrsaí agus gnó an Tí seo ó ceapadh mar Theachta Dála é i 1969. Ní dóigh liom go raibh sa Teach seo aon Teachta níos dúthrachtaí ná mar a bhí an Teachta Séamus Ó Tonnaigh agus táim cinnte, freisin, go dtabharfaidh sé cothram na Féinne do gach thaobh agus do gach Teachta má cheapfar é.

I am proposing Motion No. 9 standing in my name, that Deputy James Tunney be elected Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I do so because I know that he is well qualified for this post. His Irish is excellent; his knowledge of procedure by reason of his diligent attendance in the House since he was elected in 1969 is more than adequate for the post and by reason of his background I am satisfied also that he will give absolute fair play and cothram na Féinne, not only to each side, but to every individual Deputy in carrying out his functions.

It was not my intention to do more than formally move the motion until the Ceann Comhairle indicated that Nos. 9 and 10 would be taken together from which I gather that the Government propose to vote against my motion and then propose their motion that Deputy Denis Jones be appointed Leas-Cheann Comhairle. If the Government do this they will be, as they know, breaking completely with precedent. I, therefore, propose to speak at some greater length than I would otherwise have done on this motion. I expect some members of my party will also have something to say about it.

It has been the invariable custom and practice of this House that when the Ceann Comhairle is nominated by and elected from the Government benches the Leas-Cheann Comhairle is nominated by and elected from the Opposition benches. There have been some changes in this inasmuch as that on a number of occasions the Ceann Comhairle happened to be a Deputy from the Opposition but on those occasions the Leas-Cheann Comhairle was then appointed from among Government-supporting Deputies. I should have thought that on this occasion the same tradition and procedure would have been followed and that there would have been no objection to the nomination of a Fianna Fáil Deputy, Fianna Fáil being the only Opposition party comprising almost 50 per cent of the Dáil.

On a previous occasion when the Leas-Cheann Comhairle's position was being filled I referred to the tradition which I have mentioned that the Leas-Cheann Comhairle in the circumstances when the Ceann Comhairle is elected from the Government benches should come from Opposition benches. As reported in the Dáil debates of 15th November, 1967, column 168, when Deputy Denis Jones was being nominated from the Fine Gael Party and Deputy Seán Dunne from the Labour Party, also from the Opposition, was being nominated, I said and I quote:

It has been well established by tradition and invariable precedent that when the Ceann Comhairle has been elected from amongst the Deputies representing the Government side of the House, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle is nominated from amongst Deputies representing the Opposition. For that reason, my party have decided not to propose any candidate for this post and to leave the selection of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle to the parties in Opposition.

I might say that at this stage Deputy Corish objected to the fact that Fianna Fáil were not going to vote on the motion and by doing so were, in fact, voting to have a Fine Gael Leas-Cheann Comhairle at which stage Deputy Coughlan said, and I quote:

It is about time the workers of the country knew that the two Conservative Parties were coming together.

Mr. Coughlan

There is only one conservative party in this country now.

Mr. J. Lynch

This is only by way of reminding Deputy Coughlan of the uncomfortable position in which he now finds himself.

Mr. Coughlan

I have got out of tighter corners.

Mr. J. Lynch

I should say that the Deputy's conscience is elastic enough to enable him to get out of this corner also.

Mr. Coughlan

It cannot be more elastic than the Deputy's.

Mr. J. Lynch

The procedures of this House and the standards we try to attain are governed in many cases by legislation and in most cases by what we know as Standing Orders. We often have recourse to Standing Orders to ensure that we maintain the standards and observe the procedures laid down. But there are certain standards to which we all aspire and try to attain which are above legislation and Standing Orders and which I think are beyond and above being committed to legislation or to written Standing Orders. One of these that is dear to us all is that the Chair should not only be fair but be seen to be fair and, therefore, the tradition that has been followed was, as I have already indicated, that in the event of the Ceann Comhairle being nominated from the Government side the Leas-Cheann Comhairle should be nominated from the Opposition side.

That tradition and these standards have been honoured by time and I think we should be expected to conform to them. We on this side of the House wish to conform to them. To remove the element of fair play from the manner of election of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle or the Ceann Comhairle is, I believe, to remove it from the institution of the Chair itself. If the Government persist by reason of their admittedly slender and somewhat ephemeral majority in having my nominee defeated and their own nominee elected, I suggest that they are debasing the Chair and the standards of fair play that we expect from the Chair.

I realise that in a coalition there are problems about filling posts; that there is the usual scramble—I might even say sordid scramble—for positions but I did not expect that the sordidness would be allowed to develop to this point. When the Ceann Comhairle himself was proposed we accepted his nomination as a man well fitted for the post. We did not vote on it. Normally these positions are not voted upon once we are satisfied of the qualities and impartiality of the nominee. We did that in the expectation, if not in what I thought then was the knowledge, that a nominee for Leas-Cheann Comhairle from this side of the House would be equally acceptable without a division.

I have the highest regard for Deputy Denis Jones. Indeed, I should like to pay tribute to him here and now for the excellent manner in which he conducted himself in the office of Ceann Comhairle on those occasions upon which he occupied the Chair. It is with a degree of sadness that I say now that I am surprised that he has allowed himself to be an instrument in this unhappy business. As I said, there are certain standards in this House and there are certain degrees of co-operation expected of the Opposition. Certain goodwill, particularly in relation to the business of the House, is expected and is usually forthcoming from the Opposition. Without that goodwill it would not always be easy to carry on effectively the business of this House and of the country. In so far as the Coalition Government are now deliberately alienating themselves, and if they persist in voting against our nomination and defeating my motion, and voting in favour of their own nomination, if they persist in that way in alienating the goodwill to which I referred, then, sir, on their own heads be it. We promised them that we will be a fair Opposition and that we will give them a fair chance. We will not be too carping in the beginning, if they feel they are entitled to a chance, but we do not want that flow of goodwill and co-operation thrown back in our faces, as it appears will be done today.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not necessary to have a seconder to the motion. The Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

Tairgim:

Go gceapfar an Teachta Denis Jones mar Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

The sentiments expressed by the Leader of the Opposition in regard to the Chair sound impressive and reasonable enough to those who may not be in possession of all the facts about the Chair and its occupation in this House. Deputy Lynch referred to the most recent occasion. That was a quite inadequate account of the history of the Chair and the attitude of Fianna Fáil to the Chair over many years. For the information of Deputies, and for the information of the public, I have to recall the Fianna Fáil attitude to the occupancy of the Chair in those years ante-dating the year to which Deputy Lynch referred.

It was the custom—this was established both under the Constitution and by statute—that the outgoing Ceann Comhairle would be returned automatically in an election. The first occasion on which the outgoing Ceann Comhairle was rejected was by the Fianna Fáil Party in 1932. His successor continued as Ceann Comhairle up to 1948, when there was a change of Governmment. In 1948 we were on this side of the House and we accepted that the outgoing Ceann Comhairle, returned without election as provided under the Constitution and by statute, was entitled to be re-elected to the Chair. That position continued until 1951 when, again, there was a change of Government. The outgoing Ceann Comhairle was a Member of the Fianna Fáil Party. He was, constitutionally and statutorily, returned unopposed. In 1951 he declined to accept renomination for the position of Ceann Comhairle. Why? Because Fianna Fáil were short of Deputies and wanted to add his number to the Fianna Fáil total.

Mr. S. Flanagan

He was a dying man.

The Taoiseach

He lived long enough to vote for a Fianna Fáil Government. Deputy Breslin is certainly not a dying man. In 1951 the late Deputy Hogan was elected Ceann Comhairle and he continued in that position. He was not opposed by Fianna Fáil and he continued in the office of Ceann Comhairle until he retired on health grounds. Deputy Breslin was subsequently elected Ceann Comhairle, having been Leas-Cheann Comhairle, and continued in that office. As far as we were concerned, he was acceptable to us and would have been accepted by us, had he been allowed by the Fianna Fáil Party to stand. That is the complete history.

Mr. Andrews

It is not the truth.

The Taoiseach

It is the whole truth. It is not a case of selecting some years and ignoring others. I have given all the relevant years since the beginning. These are the facts about the Chair. If there is any doubt about the impartiality of the Chair—I accept quite freely that Deputy Lynch is quite bona fide in this matter— whatever influences were at work, Deputy Breslin, who is in good health, just as good as it was before the election, did not offer himself for re-election and, if there is any situation arising in this House over the office of Chair, the only party responsible for that situation is the Fianna Fáil Party.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

It was they withdrew the chairman. Had they not done that they would have got the Chair. It was their decision to withdraw their nominee, returned unopposed by the electorate. In those circumstances, I submit it is not open to Fianna Fáil now to complain. As far as we are concerned, Deputy Tunney is admirably fitted. So is Deputy Jones. Deputy Jones was an admirable Leas-Cheann Comhairle. It is Fianna Fáil, and Fianna Fáil only, who are responsible for this situation and, while I agree that the practice was generally accepted——

Mr. J. Lynch

Has there been any precedent for this?

The Taoiseach

There was no precedent for the Fianna Fáil approach and no precedent for Fianna Fáil's attitude to the Chair, none whatever. It was they brought the Chair into politics, at the very beginning in 1932, and they continued to shilly-shally whenever they wanted a vote. Now they object because they are hoist on their own petard. That is their business. As far as we are concerned, our decision is to nominate Deputy Denis Jones as Leas-Cheann Comhairle and we propose to vote for him.

Major de Valera

Arguments as to what happened or did not happen are one thing. What is before the House now is the creation of a precedent for the future. Do Deputies opposite realise, I wonder, that what will happen now is that the group, whatever group commands a majority in this House, will command everything after this. I will not go into the arguments. I merely draw the attention of the House to what is happening. Consider what we are doing. If the Government persist, the group behind the Government, which commands a majority here, in using their voting strength to dominate, then the Ceann Comhairle and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle will be their nominees and a constitutional balance will be removed from this House.

I am merely drawing the attention of Deputies to this. Let us know what we are doing. It is a short step from that to other things. Deputies opposite may laugh. One of the tragedies of this House—perhaps one that we may have an opportunity of debating when the Estimates are being discussed—is that we are very flippant about serious matters while being serious about the not so serious matters. However, I want to make this point: we are creating a precedent if, today, one group, by virtue of their majority, whether big or small, take over the Chair. This would mean that every subsequent majority in the history of the Dáil would do the same.

Up to now the Ceann Comhairle and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, who was almost equal in dignity and who was equal in authority in the Chair, were taken from different parties. This has been our tradition and it afforded some protection. As Deputy Lynch has said, it showed that justice was being done. This is what is involved and let us not ask who is to blame or who is not to blame. One can appreciate the case made by the Taoiseach when he said that we could have nominated and that the Government would have accepted, but it is clear also that the majority have the right to nominate the Chair and that it would be by their grace and favour that we would take the Chair. The Opposition have their own freedoms also. They may claim that we did not nominate the outgoing Ceann Comhairle so as to give us extra voting power but what right have they to ask us, who are their constitutional opponents here, to present them with a free vote? None. You have no right to claim that from us. You are now using your power to bully. I suppose we could accept this and recall the words of a former President of the USA who said that if you cannot stand the heat, do not come into the kitchen. You are creating a precedent. Think well of what is involved in that precedent.

Mr. Corish

On a point of order, the Deputy is addressing the Chair and blaming him for all of this.

Major de Valera

I apologise, a Cheann Comhairle. If the Tánaiste is so concerned with these minutiae of addressing the Chair, would he concern himself also with what is involved in a matter that is an important constitutional practice?

Mr. Harte

I have no wish to delay the House unduly. I appreciate fully the remarks made by Deputies Lynch and de Valera but let it be understood clearly that we did not chase Deputy Breslin from the Chair. If it had been the intention of Fianna Fáil not to seek the Chair in this Dáil, why did they not state so before the election? Why did Deputy Breslin not resign a week before the election was declared? Why did he return to this House without a mandate from the people? These are the questions which I, as an Opposiportan tion Deputy, must ask. I know Deputy Lynch to be a decent and honourable man and I have worked with Deputy de Valera on Committees. I am aware of the fairness of both these men. However, it is unfair of them to say that the Government are responsible for chasing Fianna Fáil from the Chair. As the Taoiseach has said, if Fianna Fáil had nominated Deputy Breslin for the Chair he would have been re-elected unopposed because, in accordance with the practice that has obtained in the House, any person seeking re-election to the Chair is acceptable to the incoming Government. These were the standards which applied when the late Deputy Hogan was in the Chair. He was not opposed by Fianna Fáil and he would have remained in the Chair longer but for health reasons. When Deputy Breslin was appointed Ceann Comhairle he was accepted by the Opposition without any question of a vote.

There is no point in Deputies Lynch and de Valera shedding crocodile tears at this stage. I hope that the present Opposition will be as responsible as were the Opposition in the last Dáil.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Harte

I do not know what is the reason for the laughter because none of those Deputies who behaved irresponsibly during the past four years sat on either the Fine Gael or Labour benches. Do not make it necessary for me to name them.

It is only fair that Deputies Lynch and de Valera should accept full responsibility for the dilemma in which they now find themselves. If we can go by gossip, it has been said that Deputy Lynch and other senior Deputies in Fianna Fáil appealed to Fianna Fáil during discussions in their party rooms to allow Deputy Breslin to be nominated for the Chair.

Mr. J. Lynch

That is not true.

Mr. O'Kennedy

Let Deputy Harte not quote gossip in this House.

Mr. B. Desmond

They told him that if he did not stand down his son would not get a nomination.

Mr. O'Kennedy

That is not true.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Harte.

Mr. Harte

No doubt Deputy O'Kennedy will be given the opportunity of making his own contribution. I was not at the Fianna Fáil party meeting to which I have referred, but I have it on good authority from people who used to be closely associated with that party that the former Taoiseach and other prominent Members in Fianna Fáil tried to persuade Fianna Fáil Members to allow Deputy Breslin be nominated for the Chair but that the responsible leaders of that party were brushed aside by their backbenchers.

Mr. Power

There are no mongrel foxes in this party.

Mr. Colley

For the record let me make it clear that the statement we have heard from Deputy Harte is without any foundation whatever. We suspect strongly that he knows that.

Mr. Harte

We know how accurate Deputy Colley was during the election campaign.

Mr. Colley

There is a very serious matter involved here and no amount of sleight-of-hand by Deputy Harte or, indeed, by the Leader of his party, will get away from that important matter. The suggestion that has been made by both of them seems to be that there is a provision in the Constitution and in statute that a Deputy who is returned unopposed because he occupies the Chair is automatically returned to the Chair. Of course, there is no basis whatever for that, as they know. What happens is that such a person is returned unopposed to membership of this House. This is for very good reasons, because during his occupancy of the Chair he is unable to participate in political affairs and is unable to deal with matters relating to his constituency as would an ordinary Deputy of the House.

The real point at issue here, and the one which neither Deputies Cosgrave nor Harte attempted to deal with, was the one put forward by the Leader of this Party, that is, that never before in the history of this State have we had a situation in which the Ceann Comhairle and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle were both from the Government side. I must make a correction there in regard to my use of the phrase "in the history of this State" because I am not sure what was the position in the first few years. Certainly since there was any normal political development in this State there has been no precedent for the Ceann Comhairle and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle coming from the Government side. That is the fact which was not dealt with by the Taoiseach or by Deputy Harte.

That is the important matter that is at stake in this debate. Deputy de Valera did very well to point out what was involved. Deputy Harte, who purports to act and speak responsibly on certain matters, might give a little thought to this instead of being so flippant. It is a very important matter. Deputy de Valera did very well to point out the importance of what is being done because if the Leas-Cheann Comhairle is elected from the Government side of the House today never again will the Leas-Cheann Comhairle or the Ceann Comhairle come from the Opposition benches.

Remember that. An extremely serious precedent will be created if this is done. In the height of our very deep political divisions in the past this was never done. It is now proposed to do it for reasons which are only sordid and squalid. I want to make it quite clear in what I am going to say that I am making no criticism whatever of Deputy Denis Jones who for a number of years filled the role of Leas-Cheann Comhairle fairly, courteously and efficiently. As far as we are concerned we have no complaint whatever about Deputy Jones.

It was stated by the Taoiseach that there were no objections to Deputy Breslin as Ceann Comhairle by him or his party and that he would have been quite acceptable. He made that statement in the face of a motion which was on the Order Paper in the past Dáil in the name of Deputy Frank Cluskey as follows:

That Dáil Éireann views with deep concern the Ceann Comhairle's ruling of 9th December, 1970 that the Taoiseach's announcement of measures clearing the way for implementation of the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act, 1940 was not a proper subject of a motion contemplated by Standing Order No. 29; is of the opinion in view of the clear wording of Standing Order No. 29 that the Ceann Comhairle's ruling implies that the measures announced by the Taoiseach do not constitute "a definite matter of urgent public importance and accordingly regards the Ceann Comhairle as having been on this occasion in dereliction of his duties as interpreter and custodian of the rules under which the Dáil conducts its business and, therefore, hereby declares no confidence in the Ceann Comhairle.

We had also a motion in the name of the then Deputy Richie Ryan, the present Minister for Finance, strongly deploring the decision of the Ceann Comhairle in another matter. I am giving that background to point out that the bland statement by the Taoiseach that Deputy Breslin was acceptable is at the very least questionable. That is not the real issue and the Taoiseach knows it. Surely the members of this Government know that what is involved here is far more serious than the question of who becomes Leas-Cheann Comhairle in the 20th Dáil. The decision being made here today will be a precedent which will be followed, I would suggest, in every future Dáil. If that is so, I would suggest to those Deputies on the Government side of the House that they think seriously before they commit themselves and commit every future Dáil to a procedure which is on the face of it a procedure which is divisive and which will be conducive to holding up the business of the House.

It is true, as I said, that Deputy Jones gave every satisfaction as Leas-Cheann Comhairle as far as we on this side of the House are concerned. Indeed, he gave such satisfaction that when it came to the question of nominating a Ceann Comhairle it was reasonable to expect that the Taoiseach would nominate Deputy Jones but he did not. What I am about to say now is not in any way criticism of you personally but rather in criticism of the reasons for the action by the Taoiseach. It was reasonable to expect in the light of the performance of Deputy Jones as Leas-Cheann Comhairle that when the Taoiseach, with a majority behind him, was nominating somebody as Ceann Comhairle he would nominate Deputy Jones but he did not do that.

I suggest that the first action in this 20th Dáil by the Taoiseach was one that he will not be proud of in future because the reasons for his action were squalid, dishonourable and petty. Having taken that dishonourable action, the first indication of what we all know is inherent in a Coalition Government and the pressures that build up on a Taoiseach of a Coalition Government—we all know the reasons for that action, which are no credit to the Taoiseach—the Government then found themselves in the position that they owed a debt to Deputy Jones. This is one of the reasons we have this motion down here today. The Government should never have got themselves into that position which they did not have to but for squalid, dishonourable reasons.

Mr. M. O'Leary

Low standards in high places.

Mr. Colley

That is right. We are now seeing the beginning of them and we will see a lot more of them. The very first action by the Taoiseach in this Dáil was that dishonourable, squalid action I have referred to which has now produced this situation today. The repercussions of that squalid action will go on and on in this Dáil unless at the last moment the Members on that side of the House stop and think for a change, think what they are trying to do and the implications of it.

A Deputy

You will have a long time to think now.

Mr. Colley

As far as I am concerned the proposition by the temporary Taoiseach is one that may be carried but I know and you know that it will not be very long before we are over there and you know, too, that if today the Government benches carry that motion to elect Deputy Jones they will ensure that when we go on to those benches we will do the same thing. You know this.

Mr. P. Belton

You will not be over here.

Mr. Colley

Of course, you know this and what is more it means if we ever go out of office again maybe after another 16 years and eventually your successors go over there they will do the same thing. Think of the consequences of that.

Mr. M. O'Leary

You will be drawing the old age pension before you get over here again.

Mr. Colley

The procedures in this House require understanding and a certain amount of give and take between Government and Opposition.

Mr. Harte

Why did you not leave Deputy Breslin in the Chair?

Mr. Colley

If the first move on the part of the Government benches is, without precedent, to take both the positions of Ceann Comhairle and Leas-Cheann Comhairle how do you expect to build up with that as your first move the kind of understanding, willingness and give and take between Government and Opposition which will enable this House to work and enable the business of the country to be carried on? You must know on the benches over there that this is not the way to do it.

Mr. Harte

You sacked Deputy Breslin.

Mr. Colley

I know Deputy Harte wants to distract attention from the real issue but this is an issue that is of some importance and I would suggest that there are men on those benches who have grave misgivings about what is proposed because they know the implications.

Mr. Harte

You sacked Deputy Breslin.

Mr. Colley

In a very inelegant phrase the former Leader of the Opposition and now temporary Taoiseach used to refer to "having their hands on the loot". Now he and his colleagues have their hands on the loot. We hoped they would show some degree of discretion in the manner in which they dealt with these things. We left quite a number of positions that they could fill, because we think that the Government of the day should be in a position to influence the various organs with which they have to deal. However, knowing all that—and the Government do know it; certainly the Taoiseach knows it—he found himself unable to resist the pressures which built up and which forced him into this position. I know Deputy Cosgrave well enough to know that he could not be happy about what he is doing here today. I know he is conscious of the traditions of the House and of the future of the House.

Mr. Coogan

On a point of order, the ex-Minister is repeating himself constantly and we cannot get on with the business of the House.

Mr. Colley

I know that Deputies may not like what I am saying and I do not expect them to like it, but I would ask them to consider seriously what has been said and the implications for the future. I would guarantee that if the Taoiseach were free to express his real personal view he would agree with what I am saying, but he is not free to do it. He is being pressured by the Coalition set-up, and this is the first step on the road to the kind of disaster that coalitions can produce. We intend to see that that disaster is not produced, but the public should pay attention to this, the very first act in this Dáil by this Taoiseach and the reasons why he did what he did, which has got him into the position he is in today.

Mr. O'Kennedy

The public and the gentlemen of the Press will clearly recall that during the course of the last Dáil the then Opposition, the present Government, made as their almost constant claim before the public that the standards they stood for, the principles they adhered to, were of the highest possible rank. There are many Members in those benches this afternoon who, week after week in the public Press, spoke of the high standards which Fine Gael, particularly, stood for, their integrity and the respect which they had for the institutions of the State. These same gentlemen who are here this afternoon apparently forget what was their constant theme when they were in opposition over the last few years, a theme which was fairly willingly taken up by a significant number of gentlemen of the Press who wanted to see them cast in that role.

Now all we ask is that they judge themselves by their own oft-proclaimed standards. I said this, in fact, after the recent election and before this Dáil reconvened, that we in Fianna Fáil would ask the new Government to adhere to the standards which they themselves had proclaimed. It has been said here this afternoon that the real issue is that we put out Deputy Breslin. If that type of comment is an indication of what they know of the institutions of this House then they know little of those institutions.

The Taoiseach said in the course of his attempted justification for this step that the former Ceann Comhairle, Deputy Breslin, was returned on that basis by the electorate. This, of course, is entirely inaccurate, as Deputy Colley has clearly indicated. He was returned to this House unanimously by the electorate ipso facto as the holder of the position of Ceann Comhairle. The same thing applies to the question asked by Deputy Harte: “Why did Deputy Breslin not seek a mandate from the people?” The law and the Constitution do not require that the Ceann Comhairle seek a mandate from the people. What we are now concerned with, as Deputy Colley has suggested, is either that a debt has to be paid or that because Deputy Breslin has not— as he is not required to do—chosen to take the office of Ceann Comhairle, the Opposition are reacting vindictively to that decision, and now that a decision which Deputy Breslin and the Government are entitled to take has been taken, the new Government are now going to give what they might call “a does of your own medicine”.

If that is the way they want to interpret the situation that is a matter for them on those benches, but in reacting in this way they are departing from those principles which they have so often called to their aid. Although they have often claimed to be the very bulwark of the institutions of this State, they are now tearing those institutions apart, and on their heads be the consequences of it.

Mr. B. Desmond

Knowing it is undesirable to prolong this charade, I wish to make only a brief comment on this question. It would be very interesting to hear from Deputy Breslin. I do not think it is in the best interests of this House or of parliamentary democracy that we should subject a distinguished and honoured Member of this House, Deputy Breslin, to any further public humiliation.

Mr. J. Lynch

Nobody has been doing that but yourselves.

Mr. B. Desmond

If I may speak——

Mr. J. Lynch

The Deputy may but he should not try to suggest——

Mr. B. Desmond

We should not subject the former distinguished holder of your position, Sir, to speculation about why he either resigned or was forced to resign or was cajoled into resigning from the position of Ceann Comhairle which he held.

I would fully accept what Deputy Jack Lynch has said, that it is inherently undesirable that the Government side should hold both the positions, because it is not generally in accord with parliamentary democracy.

Equally, I would ask the House to note how often Fianna Fáil have to learn the elementary lessons of Parliamentary democracy in this country. It is with great reluctance that I will today vote in favour of the Taoiseach's motion. I will vote for it because it is high time that Fianna Fáil were taught a very severe and salutary lesson in the handling of Parliamentary democracy.

This situation has arisen in particular because Deputy Breslin was told that, if he did not resign, his son would not get a nomination in the Donegal constituency in the next General Election. That is the kind of sordid, squalid pressure which was brought to bear on Deputy Breslin to resign his position as Ceann Comhairle. It is double-barrelled and two-faced hypocrisy for the former Taoiseach to come in here and suggest that it was anything other than such pressure that was brought to bear on Deputy Breslin to get out of the Chair.

Mr. J. Lynch

Would the Deputy not go too far with the unfounded allegations? I will have something to say when replying.

Mr. B. Desmond

I wish to say bluntly that there was no wish whatever on the Government benches to take over the Ceann Comhairle's position. Everybody on the Government side, every single incoming Deputy, assumed from the night when it became clear that we were the incoming Government, that Deputy Breslin would be the incoming Ceann Comhairle. There was no question whatever on this side of the House that we would assume he would not be taking up the position of Ceann Comhairle. This was clearly understood. It is ironic, and a matter of severe public comment, that no comment was made by Deputy Breslin. Deputy Breslin did not resign; he was not nominated by his party.

Mr. J. Lynch

I thought the Deputy said he did not want to discuss this any more?

Mr. B. Desmond

I share Deputy Harte's view because I have been assured by several leading Fianna Fáil men that Deputy J. Lynch suggested to his own Cabinet meeting that Deputy Breslin be allowed to take the Chair and I was told that he was pushed aside contemptuously by other members of his Cabinet.

Mr. J. Lynch

I must have sent Deputy Desmond a copy of the minutes inadvertently. I did it by mistake.

Mr. B. Desmond

The Government did not create the situation. It was created cynically, squalidly and sordidly by the Fianna Fáil Party for narrow, internal, party political benefit in the division lobbies of this House. They did a great disservice and a dishonour to Deputy Breslin and to the country by not taking their beating as it should have been taken and not allowing one of their own Members to take the Chair. The Government would have taken the position of Leas-Cheann Comhairle and there would have been no exhibition of posturing by the Fianna Fáil Party, as we have seen this evening, of heartbreaking outbursts in favour of Parliamentary democracy.

Let us, therefore, end the exercise and have the vote and we will live with it, much as we dislike having to go through that kind of exercise.

Mr. Davern

I should like to ask the Taoiseach——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Davern

In answer to the allegations by Deputy Desmond, it might be interesting to know why the Leas-Cheann Comhairle was not proposed as Ceann Comhairle and why was it such a surprise to Deputy Treacy when he was made Ceann Comhairle. These are interesting questions when it comes to the formation of the Labour Coalition.

Mr. Harte

Is it not a fact that the Deputy was present at a Fianna Fáil Party meeting which sacked Deputy Breslin?

Mr. Davern

It must have been a different meeting from the one I was at.

Mr. Briscoe

It seems to me that the new Government Party are still suffering from the Opposition mentality.

Mr. P. Belton

You will learn all about it.

Mr. Briscoe

I can wait. We have been listening this afternoon to allegations from Deputy Harte and Deputy Desmond which I, for one, know are absolutely untrue, unfounded and without a shred of truth. This gives me an idea.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. J. Lynch

A Ceann Comhairle, you threatened a Deputy on this side of the House because of interruptions.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am seeking to do my duty in my own fashion.

Mr. Briscoe

I have a good indication by now of the kind of Government which we are going to have here. I can understand the disappointment of many people at their behaviour. The expectations of the people have been built up to expect much from the superbly talented people. They are all waiting with bated breath. We have had the first great deception exposed in regard to this vote which is to take place on this appointment of Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I would like to say with reference to Deputy Jones that I have the utmost respect for this man. I shared the disappointment of many when Deputy Jones was not selected for better things. I fully expected he would have been so selected, but it was not expedient. Word has it, and time will tell whether there is any truth in this, that the position of Leas-Cheann Comhairle is to be upgraded and that the Leas-Cheann Comhairle is to have a State car and an increase in salary.

Mr. Tully

The Deputy does not know the facts. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle already has had a State car. He has had one for months. The Deputy does not know what was happening in his own Government.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Briscoe

The people who are most vocal on the Government side are the people who did not get anything and who realise that they must keep their names in the newspaper somewhere. I admire Deputy L'Estrange here. It is not so easy to keep your name in when in Government. Deputy Harte is speaking on everything. It is at least some compensation that the length of the Deputy's speeches will be greatly reduced.

As one who believes very much in the traditions of this House, I share the disappointment felt that the Opposition are not going to have their nominee accepted by the Government without a vote. As always, I am happy in the knowledge that the gentlemen of the Press will make their own judgments on this objectively and that the people of the country will also make their own assessment on this point. As an Opposition party we will not be dictated to by the Government as to whether we should have reappointed Deputy Breslin as Ceann Comhairle. He served this House with great distinction. I was glad that Deputy Colley referred to the fact that there was a motion put down by the present Government on the Order Paper expressing no confidence in Deputy Breslin as Ceann Comhairle. I was disappointed at the hypocrisy of what Deputy Cosgrave had to say, because if what he had said was true, then that motion should never have appeared on the Order Paper or should have been withdrawn. He, as a barrister, made a very bad case. Most of the points have been covered. Our disappointment is real at the fact that our nomination is to be opposed. It is too much to hope for and I know in my heart and soul that there will be no change in the Taoiseach's mind and that he will not at this stage withdraw the name of Deputy Denis Jones as this deal has been made. I am so sorry that Deputy Denis Jones has to be the subject of this sordid business.

An Ceann Comhairle

As there are no other speakers, would the movers of the motion, Deputy Jack Lynch and the Taoiseach, indicate whether they wish to avail of their right to reply?

Mr. J. Lynch

I do. I want to say at the outset that the personality occupying the Chair does not matter two peanuts to us. We are talking here about a principle that has been long established and that, if the Government majority have their way, will be breached here this afternoon. I should like to ask the Deputies opposite, at least those who think deeply enough about this subject, what their attitude would have been if, four years ago, we not only nominated the Ceann Comhairle but nominated also the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. Would we have finished a debate here in one afternoon, much less in one week? They would have asserted their right vehemently and rightly so. They would have detained this House a long time in debating this principle.

I do not like following irresponsible allegations made mischievously by Deputies on the other side of the House. I want to follow in particular the irresponsible and mischievous allegations made by Deputy Harte and by Deputy Barry Desmond.

Mr. Harte

On a point of order, may I ask Deputy Lynch in what way does he consider them irresponsible and mischievous?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order. The Deputy ought not to interrupt.

Mr. J. Lynch

It is a well-known and well accepted fact—let me repeat again—that normally it is the duty and the right of the Government to nominate and elect a Ceann Comhairle, a chairman of this House. There is no obligation or duty on the Opposition to provide this House with a Ceann Comhairle. The Government have as their main function to run the business of the House and to fill the various institutions and offices in the House subject to certain limitations and one of these limitations is what we are talking about here today.

There have been, I admit freely, occasions when for one reason or another the Ceann Comhairle was drawn from the Opposition side. On this occasion the Coalition won the election rather narrowly and Deputy Breslin, having been returned by reason of his being Ceann Comhairle in the last Dáil but no longer being Ceann Comhairle, was then an ordinary member of the Fianna Fáil Party. There was no obligation on this party. to ask Deputy Breslin to go forward again but the Coalition Government, having won this election by a narrow majority, there was no obligation on us either to swell their narrow majority. The Fianna Fáil Party took the decision deliberately and unanimously that Deputy Cormac Breslin would not be nominated for the position of Ceann Comhairle.

Mr. Harte

He was sacked.

Mr. J. Lynch

That is as clear and unequivocal a statement as I can make. It was taken democratically and unanimously by the party. May I say to Deputy Barry Desmond who having made his wild allegation, having stood up in his humbug manner and said that the name of Deputy Cormac Breslin should not be dragged through the House and then proceeded to do it more than any other Deputy had done hitherto—nobody on this side of the House mentioned Cormac Breslin's name—may I say to Deputy Barry Desmond that, first of all, he knows nothing of what happened at any Government meeting and there was no Government decision taken in respect of the position of Ceann Comhairle? This was a matter only for the elected parliamentary party and the elected parliamentary party took their decision democratically and unanimously.

Mr. B. Desmond

Your front bench men——

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must be allowed to make his concluding remarks without interruption.

Mr. J. Lynch

It is typical of a person like Deputy Desmond, who makes remarks like this that he is unable to stand over, to shift his ground immediately he is challenged. It was originally a Government decision and now it is a front bench decision.

Mr. B. Desmond

Who took the decision to pull him out? You proposed he should stay.

Mr. J. Lynch

I cannot say the Deputy is telling lies, unfortunately, but he is deliberately telling untruths.

Mr. B. Desmond

Who pulled him out?

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot have interruptions of this kind.

Mr. J. Lynch

It was a decision taken by the party as a whole, taken unanimously and democratically.

Mr. Harte

You sacked him.

Mr. B. Desmond

Against your wishes.

Mr. J. Lynch

When I say it was taken unanimously, I was part of that unanimously decision. The Deputy does not understand ordinary language.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Would Deputies please allow the Leader of the Opposition to conclude his remarks?

Mr. J. Lynch

It is the right, I suggest the duty in certain circumstances, of the Government to put forward their candidate for the Chair and there is no obligation on the Opposition to do so. We took our decision democratically and unanimously not to put forward a candidate for the Chair. What we are objecting to here is the principle now being established of not only the Chair but the vice-Chair being filled from the Government side of the House. I think it is a sad occasion for the institutions of this House that this should be so. I know well the reasons why and I will not elaborate on them. There were certain positions to be filled on the Coalition front bench and the Labour Party insisted on their quota and if they used enough muscle to suggest one of their own men for the Chair then good luck to them. You were elected unanimously, Sir, and you would not have been unanimously elected were it not that we thought you were fit for the job you now occupy but let us not delude ourselves into thinking that Deputy Seán Treacy came up for nomination out of nowhere. Do we not know well what went on in the background and now the consolation prize is being offered to a man who I am sorry to see in his position, to see being used as an instrument in this debasing and sordid exercise.

The Taoiseach

As I said earlier one would have been impressed by the verbal concern which Fianna Fáil Deputies have expressed about the precedent being established but the first time that this precedent was established it was established by Fianna Fáil. I know they have been looking up the record but they did not quote this one. On 15th March, 1932, the late Deputy Norton, who was leader of the Labour Party, proposed that the late Deputy Patrick Hogan be elected Leas-Cheann Comhairle. The late Deputy Little, who was a member of the Fianna Fáil Party seconded that proposal. For the benefit of younger Deputies on all sides, Deputy Hogan and Deputy Norton were members of the Labour Party. At that time the Labour Party were supporting Fianna Fáil. Times have changed of course. The arrangement was that the Ceann Comhairle was elected from the Fianna Fáil Party, displacing the outgoing Ceann Comhairle. With great respect to the present occupant of the Chair and the previous occupants, the first occupant was a most distinguished man—I refer to Professor Michael Hayes. The present precedent undoubtedly is on all fours with this precedent of Fianna Fáil——

Mr. J. Lynch

There was no coalition then; there is now.

The Taoiseach

The Government were kept in office by the Labour Party and had weekly meetings with the Labour Party. It is remarkable that Deputy Norton's motion was not seconded by a Labour Deputy but by the late Deputy Little who subsequently was a Fianna Fáil Whip and later a Fianna Fáil Minister. That is the precedent about which Deputy Colley was concerned.

Mr. Colley

What is it?

The Taoiseach

Has the Deputy never heard of it?

Mr. Colley

I should like the Taoiseach to spell it out.

The Taoiseach

I shall quote from the Official Report dated 15th March, 1932, Column 57 states:

Election of Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Mr. Norton: I move:

That Deputy Patrick Hogan (Clare) be elected Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Both Deputies were members of the Labour Party. Deputy Norton was Leader of the Labour Party and the late Deputy Patrick Hogan was a member of that party. At column 58 of the Official Report of 15th March, 1932, there is the following:

Mr. Little: I beg to second the motion.

Deputy Little was a member of the Fianna Fáil Party; he subsequently became a Parliamentary Secretary and later became a Minister. The motion was passed. Both of those parties, Fianna Fáil being in the majority and the Labour Party being associated with them, first elected the Ceann Comhairle from the Fianna Fáil Party on an earlier motion the week before and later on this motion proposed by a Labour Deputy and seconded by a Fianna Fáil Deputy. That was the time the precedent was established; that is an exact and identical precedent——

Deputies

No.

The Taoiseach

That is the precedent that has not been quoted by Fianna Fáil: it is the precedent we are following. During the course of the election campaign, Deputy Lynch on a few occasions said he would prefer the then Opposition or the then Fianna Fáil Government to get a definite majority rather than have a stalemate. He repeated this a number of times but his contribution to creating problems for the Government elected by a majority vote of the people was to extract from the Chair, whether he was willing or not, the man who was returned on the basis established by precedent. It is true every new Dáil has to elect a Ceann Comhairle but the established precedent has been broken only by Fianna Fáil, never by any other party in this House. The precedent was first broken in 1932, secondly in 1951, and now, for the third time, in 1973.

Fianna Fáil are the only party who have moved the occupant out of the Chair, either by not proposing him or by deliberately voting him down. This is the party who are complaining about precedent, who are feigning concern about the institutions of the State. It does not wash. Nobody believes it, they do not even believe it themselves, Fianna Fáil have created this precedent. We have always respected the established precedents, whether in our favour or not. Frankly, we would always prefer to see the occupant of the Chair if he were available and in good health returned without a division but, contrary to the views expressed by Deputy Lynch that he would prefer to see a government with a clear majority, Fianna Fáil tried to embarrass the present Government by extracting Deputy Breslin from the Chair although he was returned on the basis that he was the outgoing Ceann Comhairle. That precedent was established by Fianna Fáil. I rarely follow their precedents but on this occasion we are doing that.

Mr. Colley

We will follow you.

Mr. J. Brennan

The Government will regret this.

Question put: "That Deputy James Tunney be elected Leas-Cheann Comhairle."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 68; Níl, 71.

Tá

• Ahern, Liam.
• Allen, Lorcan.
• Andrews, David.
• Barrett, Sylvester.
• Brady, Philip A.
• Brennan, Joseph.
• Breslin, Cormac.
• Briscoe, Ben.
• Browne, Seán.
• Brugha, Ruairí.
• Burke, Raphael P.
• Callanan, John.
• Calleary, Seán.
• Carter, Frank.
• Childers, Erskine.
• Colley, George.
• Collins, Gerard.
• Connolly, Gerard.
• Crinion, Brendan.
• Cronin, Jerry.
• Crowley, Flor.
• Cunningham, Liam.
• Daly, Brendan.
• Davern, Noel.
• de Valera, Vivion.
• Dowling, Joe.
• Fahey, Jackie.
• Farrell, Joseph.
• Faulkner, Pádraig.
• Fitzgerald, Gene.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
• Flanagan, Seán.
• French, Seán.
• Gallagher, Denis.
• Geoghegan, John.
• Gibbons, Hugh.
• Gibbons, James.
• Gogan, Richard P.
• Haughey, Charles.
• Healy, Augustine A.
• Herbert, Michael.
• Hussey, Thomas.
• Kenneally, William.
• Kitt, Michael F.
• Lalor, Patrick J.
• Lemass, Noel T.
• Leonard, James.
• Loughnane, William.
• Lynch, Celia.
• Lynch, Jack.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacSharry, Ray.
• Meaney, Tom.
• Molloy, Robert.
• Moore, Seán.
• Murphy, Ciarán.
• Nolan, Thomas.
• Noonan, Michael.
• O'Connor, Timothy.
• O'Kennedy, Michael.
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Malley, Desmond.
• Power, Patrick.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Timmons, Eugene.
• Walsh, Seán.
• Wilson, John P.
• Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

• Barry, Peter.
• Barry, Richard.
• Begley, Michael.
• Belton, Luke.
• Belton, Paddy.
• Bermingham, Joseph.
• Bruton, John.
• Conlan, John F.
• Coogan, Fintan.
• Cooney, Patrick M.
• Corish, Brendan.
• Cosgrave, Liam.
• Costello, Declan.
• Coughlan, Stephen.
• Creed, Donal.
• Crotty, Kieran.
• Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
• Desmond, Barry.
• Desmond, Eileen.
• Dockrell, Henry P.
• Dockrell, Maurice.
• Donegan, Patrick S.
• Donnellan, John.
• Dunne, Thomas.
• Enright, Thomas.
• Esmonde, John G.
• Finn, Martin.
• FitzGerald, Garret.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
• Flanagan, Oliver J.
• Gilhawley, Eugene.
• Governey, Desmond.
• Griffin, Brendan.
• Harte, Patrick D.
• Hegarty, Patrick.
• Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
• Burke, Dick.
• Burke, Joan T.
• Burke, Liam.
• Byrne, Hugh.
• Clinton, Mark A.
• Cluskey, Frank.
• Collins, Edward.
• Jones, Denis F.
• Kavanagh, Liam.
• Keating, Justin.
• Kelly, John.
• Kenny, Henry.
• Kyne, Thomas A.
• L'Estrange, Gerald.
• Lynch, Gerard.
• McLaughlin, Joseph.
• McMahon, Larry.
• Malone, Patrick.
• Murphy, Michael P.
• O'Brien, Fergus.
• O'Connell, John.
• O'Donnell, Tom.
• O'Leary, Michael.
• O'Sullivan, John L.
• Pattison, Seamus.
• Reynolds, Patrick J.
• Ryan, John J.
• Ryan, Richie.
• Spring, Dan.
• Staunton, Myles.
• Taylor, Frank.
• Thornley, David.
• Timmins, Godfrey.
• Tully, James.
• White, James.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Andrews and Meaney; Níl, Deputies Kelly and Cluskey.

Question declared lost.

Mr. J. Lynch

Before you put the next question, Sir, may I say that we propose to vote against this motion: not againt the personality of Deputy Denis Jones but against the principle of the two occupants of the Chair coming from the same side of the House.

Question put: "That Deputy Denis Jones be elected Leas-Cheann Comhairle."

The Dáil divided: Tá 70; Níl 68.

Tá

• Barry, Peter.
• Barry, Richard.
• Begley, Michael.
• Belton, Luke.
• Belton, Paddy.
• Bermingham, Joseph.
• Bruton, John.
• Burke, Dick.
• Burke, Joan T.
• Burke, Liam.
• Byrne, Hugh.
• Clinton, Mark A.
• Cluskey, Frank.
• Collins, Edward.
• Conlan, John F.
• Coogan, Fintan.
• Cooney, Patrick M.
• Cosgrave, Liam.
• Corish, Brendan.
• Costello, Declan.
• Coughlan, Stephen.
• Creed, Donal.
• Crotty, Kieran.
• Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
• Desmond, Barry.
• Desmond, Eileen.
• Malone, Patrick.
• Murphy, Michael P.
• O'Brien, Fergus.
• O'Connell, John.
• O'Donnell, Tom.
• O'Leary, Michael.
• O'Sullivan, John L.
• Pattison, Seamus.
• Reynolds, Patrick J.
• Dockrell, Henry P.
• Dockrell, Maurice.
• Donegan, Patrick S.
• Donnellan, John.
• Dunne, Thomas.
• Enright, Thomas.
• Esmonde, John G.
• Finn, Martin.
• FitzGerald, Garret.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
• Flanagan, Oliver J.
• Gilhawley, Eugene.
• Governey, Desmond.
• Griffin, Brendan.
• Harte, Patrick D.
• Hegarty, Patrick.
• Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
• Jones, Denis F.
• Kavanagh, Liam.
• Keating, Justin.
• Kelly, John.
• Kenny, Henry.
• Kyne, Thomas A.
• L'Estrange, Gerald.
• McLaughlin, Joseph.
• McMahon, Larry.
• Ryan, John J.
• Ryan, Richie.
• Spring, Dan.
• Staunton, Myles.
• Taylor, Frank.
• Thornley, David.
• Timmins, Godfrey.
• Tully, James.
• White, James.

Níl

• Ahern, Liam.
• Allen, Lorcan.
• Andrews, David.
• Barrett, Sylvester.
• Brady, Philip A.
• Brennan, Joseph.
• Breslin, Cormac.
• Briscoe, Ben.
• Browne, Seán.
• Brugha, Ruairí.
• Burke, Raphael P.
• Callanan, John.
• Calleary, Seán.
• Carter, Frank.
• Childers, Erskine.
• Colley, George.
• Collins, Gerard.
• Connolly, Gerard.
• Crinion, Brendan.
• Cronin, Jerry.
• Crowley, Flor.
• Cunningham, Liam.
• Daly, Brendan.
• Davern, Noel.
• de Valera, Vivion.
• Dowling, Joe.
• Fahey, Jackie.
• Farrell, Joseph.
• Faulkner, Pádraig.
• Fitzgerald, Gene.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
• Flanagan, Seán.
• French, Seán.
• Gallagher, Denis.
• Geoghegan, John.
• Gibbons, Hugh.
• Gibbons, James.
• Gogan, Richard P.
• Haughey, Charles.
• Healy, Augustine A.
• Herbert, Michael.
• Hussey, Thomas.
• Kenneally, William.
• Kitt, Michael F.
• Lalor, Patrick J.
• Lemass, Noel T.
• Leonard, James.
• Loughnane, William.
• Lynch, Celia.
• Lynch, Jack.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacSharry, Ray.
• Meaney, Tom.
• Molloy, Robert.
• Moore, Seán.
• Murphy, Ciarán.
• Nolan, Thomas.
• Noonan, Michael.
• O'Connor, Timothy.
• O'Kennedy, Michael.
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Malley, Desmond.
• Power, Patrick.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Timmons, Eugene.
• Walsh, Seán.
• Wilson, John P.
• Wyse, Pearse.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kelly and Cluskey; Níl, Deputies Andrews and Meaney.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

I accordingly declare Deputy Denis Jones appointed Leas-Cheann Comhairle.