asked the Minister for Local Government if he will state the Government's housing target for the current financial year; and if there has been any revision of the declared target figure in the light of the present financial situation.
21.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Building Industry.
20.
asked the Minister for Local Government if he is aware of the danger of a major collapse in the building industry; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
22.
asked the Minister for Local Government if there are any plans on hand to make sufficient moneys available at low interest rates so that the housing drive will not be slowed down or halted.
I propose with your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, to take Questions Nos. 20, 21 and 22 together.
The Government's housing target is the achievement of an annual output of 25,000 houses as soon as practicable and I see no reason to alter that target at this stage. I am aware that because building societies have been obliged to slow down the issue of new loan approvals due to a fall in their net inflow of funds, some builders are at present experiencing difficulties in selling houses for lack of mortgage finance. I am concerned at this situation and have been meeting representatives of the societies in this connection. The cause of their problem is a combination of high interest rates coupled with strong competition from many sources for the available savings, circumstances which obtain in other countries also and one over which the building societies have little control.
In order to stimulate increased investment with the societies so as to enable them to resume loan approvals on a wider basis than at present, the Government have decided, in the interests of the housing programme, to maintain the special subvention for the societies for a further period of six months. I am continuing to keep under active review the position regarding the provision of finance for house purchase and have obtained Government approval to extend the scope of the local authority house purchase loans and grants scheme for the second time this year, so as to enable local authorities to make loans of up to the new maximum of £4,500 to all applicants with incomes not exceeding £2,350. This limit compares with a maximum loan of £3,800 in the cities and £3,400 in the rural areas and a maximum income limit of £1,800 when I took office earlier this year.
When there was no housing crisis.
The total amount available this year for local authority house purchase loans and supplementary grants has been increased to £25.5 million as compared with £12 million last year.
I have also asked the various assurance companies engaged in the provision of house purchase finance to consider expanding the level of such investment. I can assure the House that every possible measure will be taken to see that the Government's house building target will be achieved.
Might I first of all ask the Minister whether, in the over-all target he has mentioned, the total is the total for all the houses envisaged under all heads and is not confined to local authority or other such public buildings?
Yes. If it were the local authority as such it would be an increase of 20,000 over last year.
I am merely confirming that that is the case. Might I further ask the Minister whether he would not at this stage, quickly and urgently, reconsider his decision to withdraw from the financing of the purchase of second-hand houses? Secondly, is the Minister so enamoured with what he is providing and is he providing a great deal for public and local authority housing, that he is blinding himself to the reality in so far as this sector is concerned and that, in fact, the over-all building situation is deteriorating quite fast, despite reports he may have to the contrary? Men are being laid off in large numbers and builders' providers have given the evidence quite clearly that their stuff is not going out and there is a serious situation? I ask the Minister in all seriousness to look further back beyond just what he sees on the surface in regard to numbers.
I am aware that Deputy Blaney is as interested as I or anyone else is in this House in keeping the building industry going. It is not true to say that large numbers of building workers are being laid off. The contrary is the case. With regard to the question of suppliers of the building industry, the quantity of cement being used has increased by 20 per cent this year. In relation to second-hand houses, we are not doing something new in this. In his time as Minister Deputy Blaney also did this for a limited period, and he should remember that, and we do not propose to withdraw at this stage.
To what extent does the Minister expect from the information available that the target will be met this year? Secondly, can he state to what extent the increased subvention from the State will offset the drop in finance from building societies?
I still believe we will meet our target this year. With regard to the question of offsetting, it is not really a question of offsetting because the Government intend, as I stated last Saturday, to make the necessary money available for the purpose of having the building programme carried through fully. As many houses as can be built will be built and there will be no shortage of finance.
Arising out of the Minister's reply to the first part of Question No. 20, which asks for the housing target for the current financial year, are we to take it that the reply means that the target for the current financial year is 25,000 and that is the target the Minister says he hopes will be reached?
The target I originally announced for this year was slightly over 24,000. I revised that and said, if things went well, we hoped we could get up to 25,000, which is our target for coming years. I believe we will get pretty close to 25,000 this year.
In this financial year?
That is right.
Might I ask the Minister, in view of his own calculations and the detailed information available to him, information we do not have, whether he has taken into account the starting of houses and the continuous flow of building in future and not just merely completion; it would be possible to complete 25,000 houses this year and still have the building industry in chaos right into next year?
Deputy Blaney is well aware this could happen. One of the biggest difficulties we had when starting was the fact that there did not appear to be any forward planning and that is one of the reasons why we are a little bit slow and, if we fall short this year, it will be for that reason and not for any reason of a shortage of finance.
So long as you people believe that, that is O.K.
I can assure the House finance will be and is being made available to keep the programme going.
Start whistling now.
It gives me no satisfaction to say that the Minister's reply gives little hope to those looking for houses. Only six months ago the Government promised 100 per cent housing loans free.
No.
The Labour Party did in their programme.
That is not true. Let Deputy Moore quote where he got that because it is not true.
It was in the Labour Party document.
That is not true. The Deputy knows nothing about it.
What was in the Labour Party document was a complete remission of rates. That is what was in the Labour Party document.
The Chair will allow one further supplementary question from Deputy Wilson.
Will the Minister say on what date he indicated that he had communicated with the insurance companies, if he got a reply and the nature of that reply?
Discussions have been taking place with the insurance companies for the past six weeks. They are on-going.
What is the answer to the second part?
The insurance companies are considering the situation and they are already making a very substantial contribution to building.
New money.
This is a matter which is being considered.
Is it all insurance companies or just those who traditionally lend money?
I think that is it.
I would like the Minister to clarify one point. He said there was not sufficient advance planning for a building programme this year. Surely he is aware that the number of dwellings authorised and begun last year exceeded 32,000, which was one-third higher than the number of dwellings begun and authorised in the previous year when an out-turn of 21,600 houses was achieved and that the number of starts and authorised houses in the last quarter of the financial year, January to February, was twice as high as any of the previous quarters. It exceeded 13,000 starts.
The Deputy is making a statement.
The Minister was handed a building programme which was expanding at a fantastic rate, where the starts had been made and where——
The Deputy is making a statement.
I am sorry to say this about a Deputy who has held ministerial office but Deputy Molloy is talking through his hat. In fact no 21,000 houses were built last year. There was a carry-over of over 3,000 houses from the previous year on which they paid no grants. So, they carried them over and showed them in last year's figures in order to make the appearance look good. This is all codology which does not give an extra house in the country but produces figures which suit Deputy Molloy and those like him.
The figure of 13,000 starts in the last three months of the last financial year and the figure of 32,627 starts for the whole of last year. They are figures that I am quoting from the Minister's own publication——
(Interruptions.)
Question No. 23.
The people are being left without houses and there is a complete lack of confidence on the part of investors and constructors of houses because of the Minister's messing and interference.
The efforts of Fianna Fáil to create a crisis in housing have failed because this Government are providing the money and they were not able to do it——
(Interruptions.)
Deputies
Provide the houses.
We are providing the houses.
I have allowed as many supplementaries as the Chair thinks can be allowed. Question No. 23.
(Interruptions.)
23.
asked the Minister for Local Government the number of people employed in the building industry on 1st March, 1973, and on 1st October, 1973.
Statistics of the numbers of persons employed in the building industry on the dates in question are not available. I understand, however, that, on the basis of statistics complied by the Central Statistics Office, it is estimated that a total of 60,400 persons were employed in the private sector of the industry in March, 1973, compared with 60,300 in March, 1972, and that 64,200 were employed in this sector in July, 1973, compared with 62,500 in July, 1972. Corresponding figures for employment on building work carried out directly by Government Departments, local authorities and other public bodies are not available.
How is it that quite a number of people in my own constituency are being laid off in the building industry at present, people who were working in Dublin? When a job closes down another does not start up. I am sure the Minister has had——
I deny categorically that there are lay-offs in the building industry. If one reads the back pages of any of the evening papers one will find advertisements for various types of building workers required for such work. The evidence is there.
The Minister is out of touch.
(Interruptions.)
I would not look for advice from the Deputy. The Deputy made a bad job of it when he was over here.
(Interruptions.)
You can crow when you do better.
We are doing better.
Question No. 24.
(Interruptions.)
It is normally the procedure of the House that when the Chair attempts to speak, Deputies listen to what the Chair has to say. At the moment the House seems to be engaging in a debate in regard to these questions. We have disposed of some 22 questions but there is a large number to be dealt with. The Chair has been allowing supplementaries but cannot go on doing so. I am calling No. 24.
Arising out of the Minister's reply——
To which reply is the Deputy referring?
To No. 22.
No. 22 has been passed long ago. We have gone past No. 23 which has been answered.
Arising out of Question No. 23, will the Minister tell the House how many houses in Dublin city have been finished in the last two months but not occupied?
This has nothing to do with Question No. 23. Surely the Deputy can read the question.
If the situation is as good as the Minister suggests why can he not answer?
Would the Minister answer Question No. 24?
The information was in the quarterly report.
It would be in the quarterly report if we got it.
You got the quarterly report and if you did not read it it was your own fault.
When was it published?
You do not even look at your Order Paper.
When was it published?
That is not a question on the Order Paper. If you want to ask a question about it, put it down.
(Interruptions.)
There is no question on that matter on the Order Paper. Question No. 24.
Have we reached the stage when the Minister is refusing to answer supplementaries?
Would the Minister reply to my supplementary question? There is disquiet in the building industry that there may be lay-offs if money is not provided and at present in my constituency there are quite a number of people——
Questions Nos. 24 and 25.
Would the Minister care to answer the two supplementary questions I asked?
(Interruptions.)