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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Nov 1973

Vol. 268 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Vote 37: Agriculture.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £55,892,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1974, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain subsidies and sundry grants-in-aid.

This sum is £27 million less than the final provision for 1972-73. The reduction is largely due to a substantial decrease in marketing and price supports. The Estimate includes £28 million for agricultural production and development aids, £7 million for livestock improvement and disease eradication, and £9½ million for agricultural education, research and advisory services.

In addition, the budget provided £600,000 as an extra subsidy on butter for home consumption, £500,000 for the sheep industry and £300,000 for adaptations in capital aids for buildings and equipment. These are not in the sum for which I am now seeking approval, but will be included in a Supplementary Estimate to be introduced at a later date.

Taking into account the support provided through other channels, the total Exchequer provision in relation to agriculture in the current financial year will amount to £88 million.

Detailed notes on the main activities of my Department have been circulated to Deputies.

In this first year of membership of the EEC it is appropriate that I should begin by dealing in general terms with the common agricultural policy. Afterwards I propose to speak in more detail of its effect on the different aspects of our agricultural industry.

The introduction and operation of the common agricultural policy is one of the biggest achievements of the Community, and the application of that policy to this country has already brought a beneficial revolution to our farmers, the effects of which are apparent even now in the countryside and will gradually permeate the whole economy.

Thanks to our membership of the Community, Irish farmers can now develop their enterprises with confidence. They have the security of the Community system with its guranteed intervention prices, protection against imports from outside the Community, and measures to bring about equal conditions of competition in trade within the Community. This is a really significant change as compared with the highly unsatisfactory conditions with which we had to contend in the past two decades. During that period international efforts to bring about satisfactory conditions of trade in agricultural products were not successful. Indeed, one might say that no international organisation has had any outstanding success in this particular sector.

In view of the unsatisfactory conditions on export markets, successive Governments here had to resort to commodity subsidies, production aids and other measures to help farm incomes, especially the incomes of small farmers. There was, however, a limit to the amount of money which could be provided from the Exchequer for these purposes, and so, the development of our agricultural potential was seriously handicapped for a number of years. Now as a member of the Community we can expand agricultural production without any risk of the type of market collapse which we always feared in the past.

Over recent months, I have had to study in detail the course of the accession negotiations and the background to the arrangements made in them. Taking into account that we had simultaneously to advance into the European system, disengage from the Anglo-Irish free trade area agreement and cope with an unexpectedly difficult situation arising out of the international monetary disturbances, it is only natural that we should encounter some awkward situations here and there, but I should like to put on record that I do not feel able to criticise in any fundamental way any of the decisions made by my predecessors on this task.

In certain minor ways we find aspects of the common agricultural policy illogical and even irksome at times, and occasionally there are bitter complaints about their effects on our trade. This is natural enough and does no harm provided we do not take it so far as to risk throwing out the baby with the bath water. There are enough critics of the CAP outside the country without our adding too vociferously to the chorus.

Of course, not every single part of the common agricultural policy is exactly as we would wish it to be. But neither is it exactly as any of the eight other member states would wish to have it. The present agricultural arrangements have been developed over the past ten or 12 years, first by the Six, and since the beginning of 1973, by the Nine, after much hard work and in an overall spirit of compromise which sought to take account of the main problems of each country. This is not to say that neither we nor any of the other members should seek to have changes made. Of course, we should, and we will. But it is necessary to ensure that in the process we do not disrupt the basic principles and mechanisms of the whole policy. Also, if we are insisting on a particular change, we must expect that some other member states will insist on changes to suit them. These may not be to our benefit and so the net overall result may be a loss for us.

These are some of the considerations which have to be borne in mind when, as happens occasionally, there are demands here by one group or another that some particular part of the Community agricultural system must be changed because it has suddenly commenced to hurt them. This kind of development will always continue as circumstances, and especially market conditions, change. It is only right and proper that those who are then adversely affected should let us hear from them and I as Minister am quite prepared to listen to them and see what can be done to improve matters. But, I must also bear in mind the broader considerations that arise and, while doing everything I can to solve the immediate problem, ensure as far as possible that nothing will be done to prejudice the overall Community system. What may seem to be a straightforward solution to a simple problem may have very far-reaching repercussions if applied over the Community system as a whole.

Deputies will have heard a lot in recent months about this question of the review of the common agricultural policy. There are many inside and outside the Community who do not like the present agricultural system. Some allege that it has raised food prices, that it has led to persistent and unnecessary surpluses, that it has involved huge expenditure, that it has damaged international trade in agricultural products, that it is far too complicated, and so on. The European Commission has been examining the operations of the CAP and is expected to come up shortly with some proposals for adjustments. There are many reports and rumours about what may eventually be proposed but I do not intend to comment on them on this occasion. To up-date this I might say that these proposals have been made but not in the Council of Ministers. We only got the English version today and it is not possible to deal with it on this occasion. I might say, however, that I myself would like to see some changes in the CAP arrangements. I want to see steps taken to phase out the existing monetary compensatory amounts because, while they enable the common pricing arrangements to operate despite the international currency fluctuations, they impose a serious burden on Ireland as an agricultural exporting country whose currency has depreciated in value. I want to see a common organisation of the market for sheep and lamb, and potatoes. Incidentally these are some of the things that are proposed. I want to see more rapid progress by the Community on structural reform. But some other member states do not want some of these items and some of them would like to see very substantial changes in aspects that benefit us. It can, therefore, be taken that there will be very considerable discussion and negotiation in the Council of Ministers before any results emerge, possibly as part of the usual package deals out of which each member state gets something but usually has to give something as well.

At this stage I would like to refer to the past performance of agriculture and the prospects for the current year. Between 1960 and 1972 the value of gross agricultural output increased from £193 million to £478 million. The increase in volume terms was over 40 per cent. Farming costs also increased greatly, particularly purchased farm materials which more than doubled in volume and trebled in value. Family farm income which stood at £112 million in 1960 had risen by nearly 150 per cent to £277 million in 1972. The continuing decline in labour requirements due to increased modernisation means that this increased income is being shared among fewer people.

The upward trend in farm output and income which was experienced in 1972 is expected to continue in 1973. The volume of agricultural output in 1972 increased by 3.7 per cent—an increase in cattle and milk output being partly offset by decreases in output of corn, root and green crops. The continued build-up in the cattle breeding herd—there was an increase of 209,000 in cow numbers between June, 1972, and June, 1973—has provided substantial increases in both milk and cattle output during 1973. Milk deliveries to creameries are expected to be up by about 7 per cent this year and a 10 per cent increase in cattle output is now projected. These two enterprises account for well over 60 per cent of our total farm output.

Agricultural prices, too, will be higher than in 1972 when an increase of over 21 per cent was recorded. Farm income in 1972 increased by more than a third as compared with 1971 and it is projected that, after allowing for the continued increase in operating costs, a further substantial increase in income will be achieved in 1973. This rise in farm incomes will augment the farmer's own resources available for further investment in agriculture as well as improve the standard of living of the rural community as a whole. The fact that much of the increased income is being re-invested in the farm reflects the confidence of the farmer in the future of the industry, and indicates the great need that existed for investment in farming. There is, however, every reason for examining critically any sizeable investments farmers propose to make in their farming businesses. High prices can be too readily absorbed by high production costs.

The value of agricultural exports in 1972 increased by almost £36 million despite a fall in the volume of exports of live cattle and, particularly, carcase beef. A further large increase in the value of exports is envisaged this year.

Deputies will be aware that for many years now investment aids to our farmers have taken the form of capital grants under a variety of individual schemes. These schemes have served Irish farmers well and indeed have helped our agricultural industry to maintain a reasonable level of investment even during those years when the international market situation provided little incentive for investment. If these traditional schemes have had any drawback it is probably that they were largely operated in isolation one from the other. The global or comprehensive farm development approach based on deliberate and careful planning of overall investment was the exception rather than the rule. The Small Farm (Incentive Bonus) Scheme initiated in 1968 introduced the concept of planned development for smaller farmers and offered special incentive grants to encourage acceptance of that concept by farmers. This scheme proved singularly successful even though the number of farmers who participated in it was never as high as I would have liked to see it. Those who did participate, however, demonstrated beyond doubt that farm planning pays off and that the advisory services can play and are willing to play a vital role in planned farm development.

I look forward therefore with confidence to a major change in the method of providing investment aids to farmers which will come into operation from the beginning of 1974. This change will come about through the implementation of the EEC Directive 159/72 on the modernisation of farms. It would perhaps be useful if I stated briefly the background to this Directive.

While the prices and marketing arrangements of the common agricultural policy are important instruments of that policy the Community recognised at quite an early stage that there are structural problems in agriculture, which inevitably make it difficult and indeed very often impossible for a great many farmers to achieve a fair income through the price mechanism alone—for example, small farm size, poor soils, high age level of so many farmers, and so on.

It was against this background that the Community came up with the programme for the reform of agricultural structures. The programme was embodied in three directives, the first of which relates to farm modernisation. The three directives are to be implemented as from the beginning of 1974. There may be some doubt about this in relation to one of the schemes which seems to be delayed. The Minister for Lands is responsible for the second directive which relates to retirement benefits for farmers and he has referred, during the debate on the Estimate for his Department, to his proposals for implementing it. I shall be referring later to the third directive which deals with socio-economic information and vocational training of persons engaged in agriculture and which also comes within my responsibility.

The farm modernisation directive sets out to achieve two major objectives. First it provides for a selective system of aids to "development" farms. These will be farms capable of development through planning so as to yield a labour income as good as that earned by non-farm workers. To put it simply, the directive obliges member countries to concentrate aids in favour of this category of farmers. Secondly, the directive sets out to regulate the type and level of investment aid which may be given to farmers outside the "development" category. Thus not only does it seek to assist selectively the creation of viable units in the shape of "development farms" but it seeks also to harmonise aids to farmers throughout the Community so as to rule out the distortion of competition that can clearly arise where some countries which can afford it may give very high levels of aid to the disadvantage of others. I regard this latter feature of the directive as a very important one indeed which must operate to our advantage.

We have recently submitted to Brussels our draft proposals for implementation of this directive and these will be the subject of detailed discussion and examination during the next few weeks. I cannot, of course, entirely anticipate the outcome of these discussions but I feel I ought to outline broadly the kind of aids which the scheme envisages.

The development farmer would have the option of a grant or interest subsidy in respect of investments on the farm which he undertakes in accordance with a farm plan designed to provide an income, on its completion, at least as good as that of non-farm workers. This is the major change which will ensure from the directive— the insistence on a proper and detailed comprehensive farm plan as the basis for granting aid as compared with the individual and rather piecemeal pattern of grant schemes hitherto operated. The level of aid to which development farmers will be entitled will be broadly in line with the levels at present available to farmers and in some ways will be better as aid will apply to a wider range of investments than do existing schemes—for example, there will be assistance for purchase of extra breeding stock and equipment. Moreover, the development farmer who concentrates on beef or sheep production will be eligible for special guidance premiums payable over three years on an acreage basis. A condition for receiving aid is that the farmer must keep farm accounts and for this he will also receive a special payment over at least four years. Finally, and, perhaps, most important of all, the development farmer will be entitled to priority access to land which may become available as a result of farmers retiring under the retirement scheme which the Minister for Lands will be operating. Clearly, this should prove a very attractive package of aids for the development category of farmers.

Because the terms of the directive make it obligatory to give the most favourable treatment to development farmers, it follows that aids for those farmers already enjoying a fair income —what might be called the commercial sector of farming—will be somewhat lower. If our proposals to Brussels prove acceptable, however, the aids to this sector will not be ungenerous and we will at least know that in future other countries in the Community will not be allowed to be more generous. Farmers not able to come into the development category immediately or not wishing to avail of a retirement scheme will be eligible for aids at the same level as development farmers but only for a transitional period of up to the end of 1977.

I should like to refer to two further aspects of the directive—the extent to which the Community will participate in the financing of it and the phasing out of our existing schemes. Contrary to what seems to be popular belief, the extent of Community financing of the farm modernisation measure is quite limited. The main burden will continue to fall on the National Exchequer. FEOGA, the European Agricultural Guidance and Guarantee Fund, will contribute a quarter of the aids given by the Irish Exchequer to development farmers only. It does not pay any part of the cost of aid to the other categories of farmers except for the keeping of farm accounts.

Our various existing grant schemes will be incorporated in the new comprehensive scheme. It will be my aim to encourage farmers to recognise the advantages of the new system and I am confident that many of them will do so. Nevertheless, I recognise, too, that many more may wish to finish or carry out works planned under existing schemes before making up their minds about the new scheme. I intend, therefore, to allow a reasonable time for the discharge of commitments under the existing schemes.

I hope this outline has given Deputies a general picture of what the farm modernisation directive is all about. When our proposals are agreed with, the EEC Commission details will be announced.

I believe that the comprehensive planned approach to farm development inherent in the farm modernisation scheme is the proper one and will bring many advantages to those farmers who avail of it. Another advantage I see is that it must necessarily involve a closer working relationship between the field services of my Department—land project and farm buildings officers for example— and the local advisory services. This is obviously as it should be. I know already from the small farm scheme what the advisory people can do, and I am certain that they and the field officers of my Department will fully accept the challenge which the new scheme will present to them.

Deputies will be aware, too, that the EEC has a measure under consideration to provide a special system of aids to farmers in handicapped agricultural areas. This measure is closely related to the farm modernisation directive. The final details of the measure are not yet settled but on the basis of the discussions so far we have estimated that a substantial part of the surface area of the country might come under the "handicapped" definition. Farmers in these areas would then become eligible for the livestock headage payment which is the main feature of the proposal.

All-in-all, the EEC structural package ought to have many attractions for our farmers. I would like particularly to stress the entirely voluntary nature of the choices offered to farmers and the balanced nature of the various incentives offered to induce the farmer to make his choice. The basic philosophy is to ensure that the farmer who stays in farming will enjoy working conditions and living standards at least as good as those in non-farming occupations.

When the full reform programme is in operation farmers will have a variety of options but some—particularly older farmers—may have difficulty in coming to a decision. This is where the socio-economic directive comes into the picture.

This directive is designed to complement the modernisation and retirement schemes in two ways—firstly, by providing that the farming population will receive information and guidance on the prospects for improving their socio-economic situation in the context of the new structural programme and, secondly, by requiring that all those over 18 engaged in agriculture will be afforded facilities for training to equip them with the skills required for successful modern farming.

The term "socio-economic" in relation to agricultural advisory work is not, as might appear, an entirely novel concept. Many of our agricultural advisers have over the years been guide, philosopher and friend to farm families in their areas—not merely within the strict confines of purely technical agricultural matters but also on those wider issues, human, economic and social, which affected the well-being of the members of the farm family in the broadest sense. The directive requires us to set up a corps of advisers with agricultural experience who will be given special training and whose job will be to explain to farming people the options open to them under the various structural improvement schemes, opportunities for training within agriculture or outside it, the prospects for their children and so on. Farming people would thus be in a position to take decisions on their future course with full knowledge of all relevant facts.

Turning to the agricultural training aspect of the directive, we are required to operate a programme of courses, both basic and advanced, with a special emphasis on technical and economic training. In our existing agricultural education facilities available through the county advisory services and agricultural colleges, we are I think fortunate to have at hand a base on which a comprehensive scheme to meet the directive can be built. I hope shortly to have such a scheme ready for consultation with the interested bodies.

Before leaving the subject of structural reform, I would like to refer also to the availability of grants from the guidance section of FEOGA towards the cost of certain types of investment projects to improve the structural efficiency of agricultural production and marketing. Decisions as to whether or not to provide aid from the fund are taken by the EEC Commission which considers each project on its merits. Only projects which have the approval of the member state and to the financing of which the state is prepared to contribute are eligible for consideration.

My Department has submitted applications involving £12.1 million grant aid from the 1973 FEOGA allocation and these are currently being considered in Brussels. The applications related mainly to pig, beef, fish, poultry and mushroom production, to rural water supplies, to potato, cereal, onion and tomato storage and to dairy, meat, cereal, fish and poultry processing. Those having suitable projects in mind for grant aid from the 1974 allocation should submit details of them as soon as possible to the appropriate Department or state agency. My Department will be glad to advise interested parties about the procedure for submission of applications. Here I should add that projects relating to the modernisation or development of individual farms are not eligible for consideration under the scheme: the farm modernisation directive will now apply to these.

The importance of manpower training in agriculture need not be stressed. It is highly desirable that farmers should have a good basic knowledge of agricultural methods and how to apply them in their farming practice. Progress primarily depends on the education, skill and enterprise of those working in agriculture. Opportunities for a better education have improved with the expansion of general education facilities. The facilities for training in agriculture in colleges are being improved continually. The number of people in farming who can avail of full-time formal training in agriculture is limited. However, several specialised short courses are already being provided. These will be added to. Facilities for training in the operation, care and maintenance of farm machinery have been greatly improved in recent years. Even with the expansion of facilities for such training, those in farming will have to rely, for the most part, on advice provided on the farm by advisers and on classes which they can attend for short periods. Hence the vital role of county committees of agriculture.

The primary function of the committees has been to provide, in co-operation with my Department, an agricultural advisory and education service to people in farming. That they have provided a service which is in demand is evidenced by the 50 per cent increase over the past ten years in the number of advisory staff employed. There is considerable need for the entry into farming of a greater number of young people with agricultural college type education. To help our younger farmers, committees have been generous in awarding scholarships for the provision of training at agricultural colleges and rural domestic economy schools.

Special grant aid is available to assist committees in the provision of agricultural education centres. Proposals for the provision of over 55 such centres have already been made by committees and approved by my Department. These centres are intended to accommodate winter classes and the more intensive winter farm schools, as well as courses in horticulture, poultry keeping and farm home management. They will also serve as places where farmers can consult the committees' advisers.

I have had under consideration recently the question of the expansion and development of the agricultural education and training programme operated by the committees. The development envisaged will require much careful planning, organisation and co-ordination of the work of the advisory staff in each county and in this connection I have approved the creation of one extra post of deputy chief agricultural officer in each county with responsibility for this development. The programme of development will involve identifying the agricultural education and training needs of farmers in present-day circumstances, especially those of young people going into farming and planning how those needs can best be satisfied.

Committees of agriculture and their advisers have been concerned with getting the latest developments in farming practice adopted generally. One of the most successful means at their disposal is the extension demonstration farm programme where selected farmers under the guidance of the advisory service operate up to date farming systems. Other farmers can visit these to see the systems in operation and assess their value.

The farm apprenticeship scheme forms an important part of our agricultural training system. In addition to the main scheme, the Farm Apprenticeship Board recently introduced with the approval of my Department a new trainee farmer scheme to cater for young men who will inherit farms but who cannot be spared from home for the full period of the apprenticeship training.

The reorganisation of the advisory service has been under consideration for a long time. I have been giving a lot of thought to the position and have considered the various views put forward and I hope to be in a position to make an announcement in the matter in the not too distant future.

With the expansion and intensification of agriculture, the demand for graduates, not only in general agriculture but also in dairy science and veterinary medicine, will rise. The grants paid annually to University College, Dublin for its faculty in general agriculture and to University College, Cork for its faculty of dairy science comprise statutory grants supplemented by additional grants, which include provision for the capital development of each of the faculties to meet the growing needs of higher education in agriculture. The additional grants which I am providing this year for University College, Dublin and University College, Cork are up by £500,000. Proposals for the development of the faculties include the provision of a new faculty of agriculture building at Belfield and new dairy and food science buildings at University College, Cork.

The future arrangements for veterinary education are at present under review in the context of the general re-organisation proposals involving the two universities in Dublin. As regards the facilities for veterinary education, it appears inevitable that in the years ahead the complete vacation of the existing Veterinary College premises at Ballsbridge will have to be faced up to because of real shortcomings now associated with that site. New premises, facilities, etc., for the purpose will have to be provided on a site or sites away from the Ballsbridge area. In the meantime there is an urgent need to relieve the ever-growing pressures on space and facilities at the existing Ballsbridge premises and to provide for some new facilities there in so far as this can be done. Arrangements to this end are at present being worked out by my Department in conjunction with the Office of Public Works.

The provision in the Estimate for An Foras Talúntais is over £3 million. This may seem a sizeable sum but now that I have had an opportunity of coming into close touch with the work of the institute I am in a position to appreciate the wide scope of the research programme in operation. I understand that the new council is reviewing the whole programme and I am confident that whatever changes they introduce will make the institute an even more effective research agency than it has been in the past.

I would now like to refer to some of the more important commodity developments beginning with cattle and beef. It is generally accepted that the increased world demand for beef which manifested itself so clearly last year will continue. The normal seasonal easing of prices has been evident in recent weeks. This should be of only temporary duration and the future prospects for the cattle and beef industry in this country are very good indeed.

The outstanding feature of our cattle and beef export trade during the past 12 months was the sharp increase in exports to the Continent at considerably enhanced prices. This resulted in a reduction in exports to the United Kingdom. Total exports of cattle and beef in 1972 were valued at £134 million compared with £120 million in 1971.

Another welcome feature has been the recovery of slaughterings at export factories during the current year to the point where during the past few months they have been running at figures well in excess of 1972 and even of the high figures reached in 1971. The frozen boneless beef trade to the USA has also improved.

I now come to a problem which has received some publicity of late. This relates to certain charges levied on our exports of cattle and beef. These charges fall under two heads—one charge is related to the progressive raising over the transitional period to full EEC membership of the starting cattle guide and support prices for Ireland and the UK to the full guide and support prices level of the original six EEC member countries. The second charge is a monetary one to offset the fall in the value of the £ relative to the official exchange rate on which the Community's common prices are based. The first charge, or accession compensatory amount as it is called, is being phased out in five annual stages and will then disappear. The customs duty element is also being phased out.

Last year when beef supplies became very short and prices rose very rapidly, the Community introduced a beef scarcity regulation which continued until September this year. Under the regulation, the customs duties were substantially reduced and the accession and monetary compensatory amounts were also entirely suspended. The EEC beef scarcity regulation was terminated with effect from 10th September last. As from that date higher customs duties applied and accession compensatory amounts were charged—but, of course, our trade with the United Kingdom remained unaffected. The position now is that up to 31st March, 1974, the customs duty will be 12.8 per cent on live cattle and 16 per cent on beef. On 1st April, 1974, these rates will be reduced to 9.6 per cent and 12 per cent. Each year thereafter they will be reduced further until they disappear. The accession compensatory amounts are charged when the market price in the Community falls below 106 per cent of the guide price. To safeguard the new member states the accession compensatory amount when added to the customs duty must not exceed the current community charge against third countries.

The charge against third countries comprises the full community customs duty of 16 per cent on live cattle and 20 per cent on carcase beef and import levy is also chargeable on exports from third countries when the import price, that is, the world price, plus duty is below the full EEC guide price. Because of the high world price for beef, there is at present no levy on imports from third countries. On account of this I have asked the EEC Council of Ministers to limit the charge on Irish cattle and beef exports to the original Community to the modified customs duty properly chargeable on our exports and not to charge any accession compensatory amount on our exports when customs duty only and no levy is being charged on imports from third countries. This request is still under examination by the Community.

I also requested relief from the monetary charge on our exports of beef to third countries notably the United States but the Community have been reluctant to entertain this on the ground that a derogation from the monetary charge would endanger the functioning of the common price system. However, some adjustments which have now been made in the monetary charges on beef cuts, including frozen boneless beef, have the effect of reducing by over 27 per cent as from 29th October the monetary charge on our normal exports of beef to the United States.

Earlier this year the Community introduced an additional intervention system for certain good quality cattle and beef. As announced some time ago, this intervention would give us a price support in the region of £16 per cwt liveweight for these good quality cattle. With the seasonal reduction that has now occurred, the average market prices have recently come down towards that level and quantities of beef have been offered for intervention by a few factories. Special arrangements are being made to deal with this. There is no lack of holding capacity for the beef when frozen but, with current large slaughterings at the meat factories, there is a heavy demand on the preliminary blast-freezing facilities required. The situation is a short-term one and the question of arranging supplementary facilities has been receiving attention.

The question of exporting cattle live or as meat is the subject of frequent debate and one which gives rise to some misconceptions. Some people seem to suggest that it is for the Government to decide whether cattle should be exported live or dead. This, of course, is not a matter for Government decision. It is one for decision by buyers and sellers of cattle in the light of price and market conditions. The Government cannot deprive the buyers and sellers of cattle of the right to make their own decisions. It is very important that this should be clearly understood.

When the Government are asked whether they prefer to see cattle exported live or dead, the obvious answer is that the Government would naturally prefer to see as many animals as possible processed at home. But the Government want to see a healthy meat industry standing on its own feet and able to compete with live exporters because it is able to secure a good price for its product on export markets. This is the key to the problem. If meat factories get a good price for their product, they can pay a good price to the farmer. Export promotion plays an important part in successful trading and the fact that the new CBF board will be placing more emphasis on meat export promotion should help the meat trade to secure top prices for its products.

CBF has been doing useful promotion work but it depends totally on the Exchequer for its finances. I think the time has now come when the interests which benefit immediately from promotion activities should make some contribution to the cost of the operation. I am referring now not only to market promotion but also to market research and I believe the farmers' organisations would accept the concept of some direct contribution from producers provided it were reasonable and seen to be employed directly to advance producers' interests. The study group which was set up to consider the proposal to introduce a beef classification scheme has made its final report. I am at present considering, in consultation with the different interests concerned, how the scheme should be operated.

The number of herdowners participating in the beef cattle incentive scheme continues to increase, as also does the average herd size. In 1969-70, just over £1.8 million was paid in grants to over 33,000 herdowners, with an average herd size of 6.6 cows. This year the Government are providing no less than £8.4 million for this scheme in which over 70,000 herdowners are participating with the average number of cows at over ten per herd. This average, I am pleased to say, has gone up each year since the inception of the scheme.

The cattle advisory committee which was set up last year has recommended the licensing of cross-bred Charolais and Fleckvieh bulls for use in suckler herds, the importation of Canadian and New Zealand Friesian semen, Australian Shorthorn semen and Canadian Hereford bulls for trials. These recommendations are being implemented.

The progeny testing of A1 bulls continues to be a priority and at present there are 70 approved progeny tested bulls in the A1 service. In addition to the financial assistance currently provided to the A1 stations towards the employment of progeny test recorders, my Department will in this financial year pay grants to the stations to offset the high cost involved in progeny testing A1 bulls of both dairy and beef breeds for beef qualities.

A further significant development in the assessment of breeding stock has been the introduction of performance testing of beef bulls. My Department's new performance testing station at Tully, Kildare, is now in operation where bulls are being assessed for growth rate, food conversion and some body measurements. The object of the testing service is to provide a pool of tested sires for the AI service and for pedigree breeders. At the end of the test we expect that the breed societies will organise a sale of performance tested bulls. At this point I must pay tribute to the breed societies for their ready co-operation in the test arrangements.

Progress under the new milk recording scheme is satisfactory. There are about 650 herd owners with 22,500 cows participating and the numbers are expected to increase. The service is of considerable benefit to farmers both as a management tool and in grading-up animals to full herd book status. Further improvement in the service has been achieved by the establishment of an additional laboratory with up-to-date automatic milk testing equipment at the Munster Institute, Cork. Plans are also well advanced for the computer processing of milk records as from next year. This innovation will, I am sure, be appreciated by herd owners for whom the issue of speedy results is all important.

I now turn to the dairying industry. Under the common agricultural policy of the EEC the system of creamery milk price support from Exchequer funds in operation up to 1st February was replaced by the EEC system. This changeover involved the termination of the arrangement whereby the Exchequer had been meeting the major share of the export losses incurred by An Bord Bainne. Dairy products exported from 1st February onwards were entitled to EEC financial support in the form of export refunds for sales to countries outside the enlarged Community and, in the case of intra-Community trade, in the form of compensatory amounts which offset any difference between the milk price level here and in the importing member states.

The overall effect of accession to the EEC and the increase in the Community target price for milk for 1973-74 is an increase of about 4½p per gallon in the price paid to the farmer, compared with that which he obtained during 1972. The process of bringing our milk price level into line with that of the original six EEC countries will mean further improvement apart altogether from any increase that may take place in the level of the milk price in the Community as a whole. I should emphasise, however, that the gap remaining between our price level and the present Community level is now relatively small—only about 1.4p per gallon.

The changeover meant also that economic restrictions on imports and exports of dairy products had to be terminated. As a consequence, the monopoly export position which An Bord Bainne had enjoyed in relation to almost all exports of dairy products had to be abandoned. To meet the new situation the Irish dairy interests formed on a voluntary basis a new co-operative society, An Bord Bainne Co-operative Ltd, to take over the central export marketing of dairy products. Since it is essential in the interests of selling our dairy products abroad—a trade worth £52 million in 1972 and considerably more this year —that export effort should not be divided I am glad to see that almost all our co-operative dairy societies are lending their weight to the new co-operative.

You will recall that just prior to the summer recess legislation was enacted which enables the assets of An Bord Bainne to be transferred to the new co-operative society and which also enables me, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, to guarantee borrowings by the society. It is very gratifying to note that to date the society has found it possible to sell successfully abroad the dairy products acquired by it without having to sell any butter or skim milk powder to the intervention agency. Indeed, apart from a small quantity of skim milk powder purchased earlier in the season the intervention purchase arrangements have not, I am glad to say, been resorted to at all by the industry. A fairly buoyant market for butter and the general scarcity of protein material for animal feeding have been effectively exploited by An Bord Bainne. Present indications are that there is little likelihood of any serious recession in the market in the immediate future. In any event, milk producers and processors would, of course, be cushioned against any serious recession by the intervention arrangements.

The application of the common agricultural policy here obliged us to discontinue earlier this year the subsidy which had been payable on dairy products other than butter consumed on the home market. By a special provision in the Treaty of Accession we are, however, permitted to continue to pay the Exchequer subsidy on home consumed butter, but it must be phased out during the transitional period. The consumer has, however, been saved the full effect of the first stage of the phasing out of the subsidy by the Government's decision to remove VAT from foodstuffs, including butter, and to apply here an EEC regulation which permits member states to introduce a special consumer subsidy, which is financed as to 50 per cent from FEOGA. The Government have also applied here another EEC regulation which enables certain classes of social assistance beneficiaries and their dependants to obtain butter at a substantially reduced price.

The changeover to the EEC system has, of course, relieved the Irish Exchequer of the heavy outlay on support for the price of creamery milk. It has also provided the milk supplier with unprecedented price increases and has given him, through the intervention purchase arrangements, the security against world market price fluctuations that should enable him to plan ahead and develop his business with confidence.

The reorganisation and rationalisation of the creamery industry will secure for that industry the benefits to be derived from economies of scale and will enable the industry to enjoy the full benefits of EEC membership. Steady progress has been made in rationalising the industry, especially in southern areas. I hope that other societies will realise that it is in their own interests to be a member of a large viable creamery concern which will ensure for the milk suppliers access to suitable processing outlets and the best possible price for their milk supply.

On a number of occasions I have made it clear that I am prepared to approve of proposals for the purchase of the Dairy Disposal Company's properties by co-operative interests in the context of approved schemes or re-organisation, subject to a reasonable price for the properties concerned. Four of the company's 17 creamery groups have already been disposed of to co-operative interests. Arrangements for the sale of eight further groups in Kerry have been agreed upon, and the transfer will take place fairly soon. It is my policy to continue to facilitate the transfer of the remainder of the company's enterprises until all are in co-operative ownership.

There is as yet in the EEC no common organisation of the market for sheep and lamb but I have been pressing for this at meetings of the Council of Ministers. I have obtained a promise that the Commission's preliminary thinking on this problem will be made known to us in the near future.

This has been a good year for sheep producers. In the early part of the year prices for hoggets were particularly good. Prices for fat lamb continued steady throughout the summer and autumn months at higher levels than in 1972 and there was a very healthy trade for store lambs for fattening. The French market has remained open all this year and this has been useful. On the other hand, we had the unwelcome increases this year in the French levy charges, a matter which I took up earlier with the French authorities and am still pursuing.

Sheep production has, of course, had the added benefit of the higher wool price. It has also been helped by the sheep subsidy schemes for which an extra half million pounds was provided in the budget. This made it possible to raise the rate of subsidy on hogget ewes from £2 a head to £3 a head. It also enabled the rate under the mountain lamb scheme extension to be improved to £1 a head from September to December and £1.50 a head from January to April. The main outlets for our carcase lamb exports are France, the UK and Belgium. As I have said, the French market continues to stay open and even if it should close down for a few weeks before the end of the year we would expect that, as heretofore, it would be open in the new year for the lambs now being fattened for sale to our export factories at that time. The UK market for lamb is particularly firm at the moment and looks likely to continue that way. Exports of carcase lamb to Belgium are now a regular and useful feature of our trade and the relatively small shipments of live sheep to the Continent have helped to keep prices steady. What we now want is a common EEC policy for sheep which will give stability and a justifiable level of profitability to producers. Here I might mention that I have set up a committee representative of all the interests concerned to advise me on policy in relation to sheep breeding. I am confident that their work will be valuable and I wish to thank those people who have kindly agreed to serve on the committee.

Membership of the EEC offers us in the pigmeat sector access to the larger markets of the Community on equal terms with out fellow members as the compensatory amounts system operates to offset differences in grain prices pending full harmonisation of grain prices throughout the Community. We also have the protective mechanisms of the common agricultural policy, that is, levies and minimum import prices in respect of third country imports and intervention buying in depressed market situations.

Essentially, however, the situation is one in which market conditions determine the prices for our pigmeat and in which efficiency of production and processing determines the profit margins for our pigmeat enterprises.

The first half of this year was a very satisfactory period for pig producers. Pig prices increased throughout the period and, by the beginning of June, prices were about £6 per cwt deadweight higher than at the beginning of February. This situation derived from the high prices for pigmeat that prevailed on export markets, and particularly the steep rise in prices for bacon on the British market.

From early June the situation deteriorated. Bacon prices fell in Britain as a result of over-supply and at the same time producers had to face steep increases in prices for feedingstuffs due to the development of a world shortage of grain and protein foods. There is little doubt that during this period pig fatteners who had paid high prices for weaners earlier passed through a period of minimal profit on their throughput of pigs. This situation also obtained in Britain and Northern Ireland. In recent weeks prices on export markets, particularly bacon and pork prices in Britain, have improved and pig prices have been increasing here. Such marketing information as is available to us suggests that export markets should remain firm.

In the free market situation in which we find ourselves we are bound to have fluctuations in pig prices and in production costs but we would not expect a repetition of the steep increases in prices for feedingstuffs experienced this year. Producers here as in the other countries in the EEC will experience periods of greater and lesser profitability but over a period the total returns to our producers should continue to make pig production in this country a worthwhile enterprise. Certainly, neither in the field of production nor processing do I see us operating under any serious disadvantage as compared with our EEC partners.

Our producers and processors have, wisely in my opinion, decided to continue the system of centralised marketing of pigmeat through the Pigs and Bacon Commission on a voluntary basis. The Commission have gained valuable marketing expertise over the years. They can and do concentrate our small share of the total market supply in Britain into areas where effective sales promotion can be carried out. They can exploit markets in Europe for particular qualities and particular cuts and can, as they did this year in the case of Japan, develop, when occasion offers, valuable overseas outlets for our pigmeat exports.

The estimated output of poultry and eggs in 1972 was more than £20 million of which eggs accounted for about £10 million, broilers £8 million, turkeys £1.8 million and ducks and geese £0.4 million.

Egg production at nearly 700 million, of which about 60 per cent is now produced in intensive commercial units, is disposed of entirely on the home market. There has been a gradual decrease in production in recent years and there have been some imports from Northern Ireland this year. Broiler production, which is operated on a contract basis between growers and processing plants, increased to about three million birds to 21 million in 1972 and a further increase to 23 million is expected in 1973. Exports in 1972 accounted for about 10 per cent of output.

Turkey production, of which about 60 per cent is disposed of on the Christmas market, is expected to continue at the level of 800,000 birds as in recent years. About 24,000 turkeys were exported oven ready in 1972.

Duckling production is expanding steadily. In 1972 production was about 400,000 birds of which more than one-third were exported oven ready.

A new course in poultry management to train young men to work in the poultry industry has been introduced at the Munster Institute. This course includes practical experience on commercial poultry farms.

In order to assist egg packers to meet EEC egg grading requirements, grants of 25 per cent of the cost of adaptation or replacement of existing equipment are available from my Department.

As regards the horse industry, I welcome the significant increase in the volume and the value of our exports in recent years. In 1972 they were worth almost £10 million comprising 3,650 thoroughbreds valued at more than £7½ million and about 13,000 non-thoroughbreds valued at more than £2 million. Our non-thoroughbred exports have shown a particularly marked increase and for these horses, which can be described as the "leisure" horses, the hunter, the show jumper and the three-day event horse, there is every indication of scope for expansion of exports. We are well geared to meet this increased demand because of our horse-breeding tradition and the breeding skills of our farmers. Bord na gCapall which was established in 1971 has a particularly useful role to play in this field as one of its main functions is to advise me on horse breeding. The board has also the task of setting up and running a national training centre in equitation. Its plans for this are not yet complete but it has already run training courses and employed instructors. A pool of horses has also been provided by the board for use in competitions at home and abroad. In the field of sales and exports, which is in effect the main purpose of the board, some useful steps have been taken in setting up a sales directory and in providing a sales service for foreign buyers.

Bord na gCon report that 1972 was a most successful year for the greyhound industry with records in attendances at race meetings, betting turnover and prize money. This is due to the board's policy of financing the development of race tracks and the provision of amenities for the public. Exports of greyhounds increased both in numbers and value with significant numbers going to the USA, Spain and Italy. Australian owners are also showing an interest in obtaining Irish greyhounds.

I now come to the subject of livestock disease. The two cattle diseases of major concern to us are bovine tuberculosis and brucellosis. It is disappointing to note that despite the expenditure of large sums of money and effort over the past 20 years the incidence of bovine tuberculosis has not yet been reduced to an acceptable level. Eradication measures have been intensified this year by the extension of area testing to Counties Carlow, Clare, South Galway and Wexford and by the recruitment of additional veterinary surgeons to supplement the Department's veterinary staff. The net provision is higher by £300,000 than the corresponding amount originally provided for in the estimates for 1972-73.

Brucellosis results in severe financial losses to herdowners through reduction in milk yields and the loss of calves. For this reason alone it is essential that we eradicate the disease. Half the country is now under compulsory eradication measures. Six counties— Cavan, Donegal, Leitrim, Mayo, Monaghan and Sligo—have been declared brucellosis free while seven further counties are being dealt with as a clearance area. Outside the compulsory eradication area, herdowners have available to them a free breeding heifer vaccination scheme, a brucellosis certified herds scheme under which individual herds cleared of the disease are registered as brucellosis free and a new voluntary pre-intensive brucellosis scheme which aims to reduce the incidence of the disease in all the counties outside the brucellosis free and clearance areas. The new voluntary scheme is based on milk ring testing. It will permit herdowners to phase out their reactors gradually and with a minimum of disturbance to the economy of their holdings. Herdowners are required to dispose of reactors for slaughter at whatever time best suits them. A headage grant is payable on slaughter of each reactor plus a further grant when all reactors in the herd are disposed of.

In regard to both of these diseases I must say that progress is just not good enough. We are really living on borrowed time because in four years' time we will be subject to compliance with the full veterinary requirements of the EEC in regard to both our domestic and our export trade in live cattle. In the negotiated terms under which Ireland entered the Community, we secured derogations which entitle us up to 31st December, 1977, to retain our existing methods of declaring herds free of the two diseases and to export store cattle to the United Kingdom with the minimum of disease restrictions. The effect of the full application of the present EEC requirements is that unless there is rapid progress in the eradication of brucellosis and a substantial reduction in our present incidence of bovine tuberculosis, more frequent testing of animals for both diseases will be required, internal inter-herd movement of cattle will be severely restricted and our capacity to export will be seriously hampered. The urgency of putting our house in order does not seem to be appreciated sufficiently, and I would, therefore, impress on all concerned the necessity to comply strictly with the existing disease eradicaton measures, to dispose of reactor cattle as quickly as possible and to adopt a high standard of hygiene in animal husbandry. In particular, I would appeal to farmers in the southern counties to participate to the fullest extent in the voluntary pre-intensive brucellosis scheme so that the burden will be eased for them by the time compulsory eradication measures are introduced in their area.

The very successful dressing programmes against warbles in 1971 and 1972 have brought infestation in the national cattle herd to a low level. Surveys carried out by my Department in the past three years have shown a progressive drop in the proportion of cattle affected with warbles from about 22 per cent in 1971 to 2.6 per cent in 1973. We can expect the 1973 dressing campaign to bring warble infestation to a very low level indeed. The position will be assessed next spring and summer, at which stage I propose to have full consultations with the farming and other organisations concerned with a view to determining what further measures are necessary to deal with possible sources of reinfestation and achieve final eradication of this expensive pest.

I am rather concerned that, although the dipping of sheep has been compulsory for many years, an appreciable number of outbreaks of sheep scab continue to occur. I think that there is a combination of factors contributing to this unsatisfactory state of affairs. The situation is at present being studied by a special committee in my Department and it is my hope that this committee will be able to identify the impediments to a successful eradication programme and recommend practical measures to overcome them.

Our national system of guaranteed producer prices for cereals has now been replaced by the EEC intervention price system which provides a floor price at the wholesale stage. In August, 1973, the intervention prices at Irish port marketing centres were about £46 per metric ton for wheat and £38 for barley. While there is no intervention price for oats, imports are subject to the EEC levy arrangements which ensure prices for our oat producers in line with barley prices. The prices received by our cereals producers for the 1973 crops were very much above intervention levels and constituted a record due to the strong world-wide demand for cereals. Our overall acreage under cereals declined in 1973. This year's high producer prices should, however, give growers confidence to increase their cereals acreage for 1974.

The new EEC arrangements in effect left no scope for continuing An Bord Gráin which is now in process of being wound up and I should like to take this opportunity to thank the directors and staff over the years for their very successful efforts in bringing order out of what were at times difficult and controversial circumstances.

There has been some disquiet about the increases in the price of feeding stuffs which have taken place in the past year. I am afraid that we will have to accept that feeding stuff prices must inevitably increase in line with our cereals prices. The restrictions placed by the United States on the export of soya and other protein feeds in June last completely disturbed the world market and caused the price of soya to increase four-fold. These restrictions have now been lifted and the price of soya, whilst still high, is approaching more normal proportions. This situation and the rise in world grain prices was mainly responsible for the recent increases in prices for compound animal feeding stuffs.

I am glad to be able to say that the temporary cut in the protein content of feeding stuffs imposed by compounders as a conservation measure has now been restored. The important thing is to ensure that our feeding stuff prices will be no higher than those of other members of the Community who are in competition with us in the market for livestock products such as pigs and poultry. Owing to the EEC levy system, grain can only be imported at a price far above intervention level. It is obvious that the more self-sufficient we are in feed grain production, the lower will be our feed costs and the more competitive we will be in grain-based livestock production. Our yields of feeding barley are the highest in the Community and there is now every reason, therefore, for us to aim at self-sufficiency and even a surplus in feeding barley.

In the past sugar-beet has given better returns to the farmer than many other farm enterprises. While some other products have now become more attractive than before because of price increases, it would be a great pity if the acreage under beet were not kept at a high level. I would urge farmers to grow beet up to the full amount offered for contract by Cómhlucht Siúicre Éireann. Beet has a number of advantages, including its suitability as a rotation crop. Our minimum beet price, which is below the Community level, will be progressively increased each year up to 1978. There is also likely to be a steadily increasing world demand for sugar in the coming decade, which could mean greater production opportunities and more remunerative returns to beet growers. As Deputies will be aware, the future sugar policy of the Community is the subject of proposals by the EEC Commission. No decision has yet been taken by the Council of Ministers on these proposals. In any event, they do not affect our sugar beet quota for 1974.

The acute scarcity and marketing problems of last year's potato crop have been followed by a welcome increase in the acreage planted in 1973. Yields this year should also improve. I confidently hope that the scheme approved by the Government for a guaranteed minimum price to potato growers coupled with advantageous marketing will succeed in bringing a degree of stability to potato production to the benefit of grower and home consumer alike.

As regards horticulture, the EEC regulations which provide for a common organisation of the market in fresh fruit and vegetables are designed to stabilise the market for these products. Produce is allowed to move freely within the Community subject to its conforming to standards of quality, grading and packing as laid down in the regulations. There is provision for an intervention system under which certain fruit and vegetables may be taken off the market when prices drop to a very low level. Financial assistance is available to encourage the setting-up of producer organisations to regulate supplies and operate withdrawal measures when prices fall below a certain level. Measures are also taken to avoid serious market disturbance by imports from third countries, including in some cases the fixing of reference or minimum import prices. This country is applying the EEC system gradually over the transition years. Already we have removed our quantitative import controls on apples, tomatoes and onions. In the case of apples and tomatoes a system of compensatory amounts, i.e. levies on imports and payments on exports, is operating and will apply on a declining scale in the transition years for the periods in which the quantitative restrictions formerly operated. Statutory grading in accordance with the EEC standards has been introduced.

The numbers of applications for participation in our existing glasshouse, mushroom and horticultural grants schemes continue at a satisfactory level. As regards production I am happy to say that, while final figures are not yet available, it can be taken at this stage that yields and quality of fruit and vegetables in 1973 generally are as good as and in some cases superior to those crops harvested in 1972. Production and exports of tomatoes and mushrooms are expected to show increases over the 1972 figures. Apple production is also expected to record an increase. The total acreage of commercial horticultural crops and the acreage of contract growing of fruit and vegetables for processing, both of which had shown a decrease in 1971 and 1972, are expected to show an upward swing this year.

While all these factors are encouraging and while it is gratifying to be able to report such progress, I feel it must be stressed once again that the effect of EEC membership will undoubtedly pose a real challenge to the horticulture industry. However, given a firm resolve on the part of our producers to aim at achievement of the highest standards of product, quality and marketing, the challenge can be effectively met.

This country's quantitative import control on seeds has been removed. At the same time, however, our grass seed producers were able to benefit from the Community scheme of aid for the production of certain seeds including grass seed.

There are a number of Community directives relating to the marketing of seeds of beet, forage crops, cereals, potatoes, oil-bearing and fibrous plants and also vegetable seeds. The general objective of the directives is to ensure that only good quality seed is sold on the Community market. Specifications are laid down in regard to the quality of seed which may be offered for sale as well as marking and labelling requirements. Varieties are confined to those which are included in the national catalogue of varieties of a member country or in the common catalogue of varieties proposed by the Commission. The provisions of these directives will be applied in this country on a gradual basis over the next few years in the case of agricultural seeds and for vegetable seeds they are already in operation.

I should now like to say a word about agricultural credit. I expect that the demand for credit will continue to grow over the next few years since farmers will need more capital to expand their output and to adapt their enterprises so as to benefit from the higher prices and improved market conditions in the EEC. Additional capital will also be needed for the agricultural processing industries, particularly the milk and pigmeat industries.

The main sources of credit for both farmers and the agricultural processing industries are the commercial banks and the Agricultural Credit Corporation. There has been a steep increase in the last few years in the volume of lending to agriculture, particularly by the ACC. To cater for this demand, the Agricultural Credit Corporation Act, 1972 increased the corporation's borrowing power from £25 million to £70 million.

Further funds are being provided through a loan of £10 million by the World Bank. These funds are being channelled through the Agricultural Credit Corporation and the Associated Banks for a livestock development project. The project will provide long-term finance on favourable terms for beef breeding, rearing and fattening, combined beef and dairy farms and pig production enterprises. It covers the provision of finance for stock, buildings development and incremental working capital. In addition to the provisions of long-term finance repayable over 12 years, the project also offers the advantages of a favourable rate of interest and a four year moratorium on repayments.

Deputies will be aware that a scheme was introduced in June, 1972, which I have extended to 31st December, 1973, under which loans at a reduced rate of interest are available to assist small and medium-sized farmers to expand their breeding herds. Farmers with gross margins of £1,500 or less are eligible for loans. The maximum loan is £1,000, the interest subsidy is 4 per cent per annum and the repayment period is three years. My Department pays the subsidy to the lending agencies —the Agricultural Credit Corporation Ltd. and the Commercial Banks. Up to the end of August loans totalling £3.7 million had been made to about 4,800 applicants.

Demand for the facilities of the land project and of the farm building scheme continues at a high level.

There were increases in applications for land drainage and reclamation grants, for mountain fencing scheme grants and for the facilities of the land project fertiliser credit scheme. These increases reflect the growing interest of farmers in having their lands improved to reap the benefits of EEC membership.

I might mention here that a number of people have come to me and expressed the fear and expectation that the land project work was going to cease. I want to assure them that that is not so.

The heavy demand for the facilities of the land project has given rise to a rather large backlog of applications on hands awaiting investigation. Steps recently taken to cope with the situation include the transfer of some existing field staff to areas where the demand is heaviest and the recruitment of a number of temporary field staff to help out in some western counties. Extra clerical staff have been allocated to districts where the need was greatest. Everything possible is being done to deal with the backlog within the limits of available staff resources.

As provided for in the Budget, a number of adaptations to the farm buildings scheme have been carried out. These relate to pig-breeding and farrowing accommodation, sheep wintering facilities, tower silos for moist grains and farm conditioning and drying equipment for grass seed.

With a view to the prevention of pollution from farm activities, I have introduced a scheme under which committees of agriculture may make payment of grants towards the purchase of slurry disposal equipment. These grants will be payable to bona fide contractors who undertake to collect and spread farm slurry in accordance with the terms of the scheme.

Ground limestone usage for the year ended March, 1973 at almost two million tons was the highest on record. The usage of nitrogen, phosphorous and potash has also continued to increase substantially. The total provision for lime and fertiliser subsidies in the current year's Estimates is £6.65 million or £1.2 million less than last year. The decrease is attributable mainly to the discontinuance of the potash subsidy.

Before concluding, I would like to mention the helpful discussions which I have had with farming organisations since assuming office. Prior to the budget, I had exhaustive discussions with the Irish Farmers' Association and the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers' Association. Since then I have had further discussions with these organisations as well as with numerous other agricultural bodies. I was glad of the opportunity to discuss our current agricultural problems with these bodies and to receive the benefit of their views. My aim is to work closely with them and to have their co-operation and support.

At the same time, I feel I must say that too frequent discussions with a whole host of organisations can be very time-consuming and can constitute a serious encroachment on the time available to a Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries—or, indeed, any Minister of State—for dealing with the multifarious activities of his office. I am sure the various organisations concerned will readily appreciate this.

Deputies will appreciate that, given our membership of the EEC and given the existence and importance of the common agricultural policy, the best service I personally can render our farmers is to do all I can in Brussels to ensure that the CAP will evolve in a way that benefits the farmers of this country. Here at home my job, as I see it, is to guide and encourage the development and, where necessary, the re-organisation of the operations of the Department and other agricultural agencies in such a way that the best possible service is available to Irish farmers. This will be my motivation whether I am concerned with a section of activities within the Department, the re-organisation of advisory or other technical services, or the rationalisation of a group of co-operatives. The objective is the same—the fashioning of the tools that are capable of doing the job most effectively in the 1970s and 1980s.

I think I have now dealt with the more important aspects of our agricultural industry and I look forward to a constructive debate on this Estimate.

At the outset, I want to say to the Minister on a personal note that he is welcome into the House with the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. This is his first Estimate and, who knows, it may be his last.

We will not describe that as wishful thinking, will we?

Of the Coalition group in office for the time being it is only fair to say that the Minister is possibly one of their best and I personally hope that he will do a good job and I wish him every success.

The bright, rosy and healthy picture painted by the Minister of the agricultural front is, of course, as we all know, due to the sound policies of the Fianna Fáil Government over the years. I would have thought that the present Minister would have been big enough to acknowledge this. I would have expected more from him and I have been disappointed.

I thought I went out of my way to acknowledge it.

I would like to assure the Minister that the farmers will never forget how the Minister's Cabinet colleagues and supporters in Parliament tried their utmost to deny Irish farmers the benefits of the European Economic Community and how they did their utmost at all times to try to sabotage our entry. I am sure by now the Minister realises the importance of his ministry and how in one way or another this ministry influences every man, woman and child in the country. I am also sure that by now he realises the worth of his civil servants in the Department. I believe he did not mention them at all in his opening statement. Perhaps that was an oversight on the Minister's part and there was nothing deliberate in it. I would hope that the Minister at this stage in his political life is now repentant for the many unjustified criticisms he levelled against the same civil servants as advisers when he used to act irresponsibly, as he sometimes did, on this side of the House.

That, of course, is not true.

The record can be turned up any time the Minister likes. I should like to pay public tribute here and now to the zeal and dedication of the civil servants in the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. I believe they are as good a group as can be found anywhere in the world.

Hear, hear.

I see from newspaper reports that the Minister is kept fairly busy attending the many functions to which he is invited. On a more personal note, if I were prone to give advice at this stage it would be to the effect that attending too many late night functions could eventually mean that the Minister might not be in the best condition to attend to his office duties the morning after. Neither might he be in the best condition to make a case for us at the European bargaining table of agricultural Ministers and we all, of course, realise and appreciate that it is of vital importance that this should not happen. A recent report in The Irish Times suggested that the Minister behaved in an extraordinary fashion recently after a meeting in Luxembourg. I quote from The Irish Times of 27th October, 1973, an article by Fergus Pyle, who is a professional at his job. I quote:

...he seemed visibly under pressure throughout the discussion on Tuesday ... and seemed unable to judge the mood of the other ministers. It was not that he was rowing against the stream on a national issue, which is a constant and necessary thing to do, but that he did it badly and failed to impress the other ministers...

He got £22 a ton off the export charge at the same meeting.

I have been on my feet seven minutes and I have been interrupted four times. The Minister was on his feet for one and a half hours without interruption. Of course, Sir, you realise that the Minister will have the opportunity of replying to everything that will be said during this debate at its conclusion.

The article goes on:

one after the other, the ministers dropped him like a hot potato,

Later on it is said that:

He fumbled his figures and was trounced by the French representative,

I could quote at length but I think the point has been made. We know what we want from those in Government, handling our case at the conference table. We want of their best at all times. If we are satisfied that we are not getting of their best, then it is our duty to say so loudly and clearly at all appropriate times and to demand a change or replacement as speedily as possible. In competitive Europe we cannot afford to be seen as incompetent or as fumblers and if we do the nation as a whole will be the loser. I should like to give fair warning to the Minister that we will not tolerate second-class representation. The Minister has failed once again, as have his Coalition colleagues, to fully implement the section of the infamous 14-point plan relating to agriculture as publicly promised by them in their pre-election manifesto. This will be seen as another broken promise, a broken promise of the two groups forming the Government. I am sure the public at large will rightly deal with those people when the opportunity presents itself. I would like the Minister to explain himself, if he can, on his lack of action on the agriculture section of the 14-point plan which was put before the people, when he is replying.

Milk production was up by about 6 per cent this year instead of the 10 to 15 per cent which was anticipated. Why has this happened? Is it in any way, as is suggested, connected with a lack of confidence on the part of dairy farmers in the long-term future of dairying, even within the EEC? There has been a lot of rationalisation in the last 12 months. Figures mentioned are that central creameries have dropped from 150 to 50. I would strongly urge the Minister to give the "all clear" to rationalisation in north east Limerick. He can be accused of dragging his feet where rationalisation is concerned and I would urge that he should not drag them much further.

Much has been said of the EEC, and indeed we had quite a statement from the Minister on the common agricultural policy. The bad effects of the EEC intervention support structure for dairy products on the Irish dairying industry in the past year need to be mentioned. Skim powder went up by 38.3 per cent and correspondingly cheese went up by 36.3 per cent. In other words, both skim powder and cheese, which are very important because they are both protein based, increased to somewhat similar levels. However, in 1973 skim powder experienced a phenomenal increase up to 53.8 per cent on the last year whereas cheese actually dropped by 8.8 per cent. I believe there are two reasons for this. One is that there was an oversupply of cheddar cheese in our traditional market—the United Kingdom—by virtue of Commonwealth countries, Australia and Canada, flooding the market before the start of this year because they were excluded and also because New Zealand was being phased out over the next five years. The other reason relates to the fact that the wholemilk cheeses are not currently included in the EEC intervention network for dairy product support. I will say more about this at a later stage.

As far as Ireland is concerned, the major obstacle about the current system is that processors are encouraged to divert their milk into both butter and skim milk powder because these products are, firstly, covered by intervention and, secondly, covered at a very lucrative price, a price which was above the market price for these products in Ireland before we joined the EEC. The cheese industry in Ireland, based on the provisional estimates, suffered a major retraction in the past year and it did not maintain the rate of increase over the previous year as compared with skim milk powder. I should like to hear the Minister's plans to do something at EEC level to alter the undesirable trend in regard to cheese and to instil confidence into the Irish cheese manufacturers because cheeses are the only kind of fat milk products enjoying increased consumption and it is axiomatic that we must divert more and more of our milk into this growth area, a growth area based on increasing demands for the product.

I should like to make the point that the current EEC intervention network, because it is based on only two products, is restrictive. It does not encourage adequate diversification of the dairying industry. Even though milk prices in Ireland are now of the order of 20p to 22p per gallon they are lower than prices in France, where the prices have reached 25p to 27p per gallon. One of the reasons for this increase in price in other EEC countries is that they are able to divert their milk into highly remunerative products, apart from the intervention products as such.

In connection with pigs and poultry, there is one item common to both of them. According to our pig husbandry experts 80 per cent of the cost of pigmeat relates to input feed costs. Accordingly, fluctuations in feedingstuff prices over the past year have been a major disincentive. Statistics for June, 1973, show that pig numbers decreased between 1972 and 1973 by 7.5 per cent. This major decrease is partly related to and affected by the high cost of feed inputs during the past year.

The Minister's colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, seems to permit these increases in feeding costs against the wishes of the leaders of the farming organisations. There seems to be a grave lack of consultation and liaison between the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries. The latter Minister should be striving continuously to keep the costs of feedingstuffs as low as possible in order to prevent erosion of the competitive advantages which Ireland has vis-á-vis other EEC countries. Although the number of pigs went down by 7.5 per cent in the past year the number of breeding sows and gilts dropped by only 0.6 per cent. With pigs as with dairy products there has been a diverting of all our pigmeat into too narrow a range of products. Greater diversification of pigmeat products is desirable. More products should be processed and meats of a convenience nature which are common on the Continent should be produced. I am thinking of various types of luncheon meats and salamis. Unless the Irish pig industry diversifies and produces these products they will be imported from abroad.

With poultry, as with pigs, the biggest single production cost is the feeding cost. There has been an exhorbitant increase in feeding costs over the past year with serious consequences to poultry prices. The Government's lack of control in regard to the price of feeding stuffs, which constitute 80 per cent of the cost of pig and poultry production, has as far as the pig industry is concerned led to a major crisis. The excessive increases in feed prices granted by the Minister for Industry and Commerce have been a major factor in creating this crisis. The increases allowed were so unwarranted that some of the feed compounders were not prepared to implement them in full.

The Government's policy has been so disastrous that there have been widespread reports of pregnant pigs being sent for slaughter. This naturally will result in a reduction in pig production and a setback to the industry at a time when the Pigs and Bacon Commission are seeking supplies to fulfil export orders. Producers are concerned at the slow progress being made in the rationalisation of bacon factories. The case for the reduction in the number of bacon factories has been well established. The need for this rationalisation will be greater unless the Minister can set the industry back on the productive path established when Fianna Fáil were in office.

I come now to sugar and to sugar beet. The Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries does not appear to have any policy on a sugar quota. Last year this country received a quota of 150,000 tons of A sugar and 52,500 tons of B sugar, which carried a levy of £36 per ton. The proposal for next year is that the A quota should stand as before at 150,000 tons but that the B quota should drop from its present level of 35 per cent of the A quota to 15 per cent to 18 per cent of the A quota. In other words, something of the order of 22,500 tons of B sugar would again carry levy

In my opinion this country should be making every effort to achieve a quota of 200,000 tons, but all of this sugar should be A sugar. We would then be achieving the same total sugar production capability as last year but there would be no levy involved. This may be feasible now because the French are anxious to increase their quota of sugar beet at the expense of Commonwealth cane imports into Britain. It is conceivable that by proper lobbying the Irish and French interests could prevail, thereby giving Ireland its full quota. It is fair to comment that the Government, as the agent of the country, have not been seen to be active and pushing a policy on sugar.

In the absence of any evidence of this policy being pushed strongly there is naturally a lack of confidence by farmers in sugar beet. The acreage for the 1973-4 campaign is down by 10,000 acres on last year, from 85,000 to 75,000 acres. Admittedly, part of this fall is due to the bad season last year in terms of yield. This is usually followed by a fall in acreage. But the drop of 10,000 acres was due to lack of producer confidence in the industry as shown by the absence of public recognition of a strong policy by the Government for a proper quota allocation. This was not being pressed.

There is a certain lack of confidence by growers in the Tuam area as regards the future of sugar beet in that region. The Sugar Company have said that it will modernise the four sugar factories, including Tuam. This has led to some scepticism among growers in the Tuam area. I believe the company and the Government have not been active enough in dealing with queries and instilling confidence in the farmers of the region. Without that confidence the farmers obviously will not grow beet and the Tuam beet factory will be even more uneconomically run than at present.

I see from the statistics available for June, 1973, that there was a decrease in malting barley of 6.9 per cent and in other barley of 4.1 per cent. I urge the Minister very strongly to encourage cereal production because if we do not grow cereals we shall have to import greater quantities for our own feeding requirements. The Government have not been sufficiently active in encouraging as much self-sufficiency as possible in cereals.

As regards beef and compensatory payments, it seems to me that there is an obvious area of redress between our country and the EEC and the Minister does not seem to be having the success he should have on a fairly clear-cut issue. Cattle numbers were up by 8.7 per cent in the past year, and cow numbers showed an 11 per cent increase. The total investment by farmers in livestock, which was of the order of £61.5 million, to some extent makes rather a mockery of the £10 million loan from the World Bank. Cattle prices are down this autumn partly because in the spring they were inflated and too high. Farmers who moved into beef and bought in cattle in the spring and who are trying to sell them this autumn will certainly not be too happy.

Overall, total Irish agriculture— that is farm production, food processing and marketing has certainly benefited from the common agricultural policy through remunerative prices. As I have said, the milk price is up by 4.5p. We also benefited through unlimited market access but in this context one must point out that agriculture is still our leading industry in terms of employment, at farm-factory and distribution level, in terms of total output and export performance. One must, therefore, disagree with various Ministers who suggest that Ireland is becoming a more industrialised country and less dependent on agriculture. While there is a trend in this direction, it is small and I believe that what is happening is that more and more of our agricultural raw materials are being further processed and these show up in the food and drink category of industrial output. The classical example is cattle. In 1966 live exports were 60 per cent of total exports, whereas in 1972 live cattle and meat were 50 per cent. However, during 1973 live exports are expected to be only 34 per cent of total exports. It is not a question of fewer exports per se but rather of live animals being desirably phased out in favour of dead meat or further processing. That is why I said earlier that total Irish agricultural exports are actually increasing but more agricultural produce is entering the processing sector.

In pointing out this development to the Government, I strongly commend to them the unique potential of the agriculture-based industry or agri-industry to contribute to industrial development for a number of reasons, first, because it is based on locally produced raw materials; secondly, because of the strong base of Irish scientific and technological expertise which we have in this field and, thirdly, because we have a very well developed infrastructure. Further, because of its geographical distribution the food processing industry has a major contribution to make to an effective Irish regional policy. A good example to illustrate this point is the manufacturing employment provided by Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann in Tuam in sugar and potato processing of locally produced raw materials. Because of the importance of agriculture to our economy and because of the desirability of capitalising on the advantages of the EEC, it is essential that every precaution be taken by the Minister to prevent erosion of our competitive position as a low cost producer. This means maintaining our production costs at as low a level as possible. This year has seen a fantastic inflation in farming inputs such as animal feedingstuffs, fertilisers and machines. I should like to join with the various farming organisations in criticising the exorbitant increase in the costs of animal feeds, an area critical to pig and poultry production. There is an opinion abroad that there is no liaison whatsoever in this field between the present Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries and his Labour Party colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

Despite the record £61.5 million invested by producers in their own farms over the past year, I believe Irish agriculture is still undercapitalised. The agricultural industry requires a huge injection of finance to make it more efficient and competitive in the European Economic Community. Such efficiency and competitiveness is essential at farm, food processing and marketing levels. Many of our bacon factories are small and inefficient. Steps must be taken, not alone to maintain but to positively increase efficiency at farm levels in order to prevent erosion of our low cost production advantages vis-à-vis our Community competitors.

It has been said that Ireland's greatest natural resource is grass. It is essential that we produce grass as efficiently as possible and convert it into livestock products, particularly meat and dairy products, more cheaply than any other country in the European Economic Community. Because of our natural advantages in grass production, we have the potential to become the New Zealand of the EEC. In association with the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries we should strive for, and attain, maximum efficiency and productivity in farming, processing and distribution.

The agricultural statistics for June, 1973, indicated a commendable increase of 8.7 per cent in the total cattle population. This can be placed in realistic perspective by mentioning that research of An Foras Talúntais has demonstrated that with existing production technology there is capacity for almost doubling the current population. At present this country carries seven million livestock units on approximately 12 million acres of arable land giving a maximum stocking rate of slightly over two acres per livestock unit. This stocking rate can be intensified to one acre per livestock unit without any strain on the productive capacity of our major natural resources. A doubling of the national stocking rate, so essential if we are to tap optimally the advantages accruing from EEC membership, will necessitate a continuing major capital investment, especially in terms of breeding stock. As well as investment at farm level, capital infusion will be required at factory level. Increased agricultural production will de facto catalyse vastly increased food processing endeavours. Accordingly a major investment programme must be undertaken in expanding and diversifying our food processing capabilities. While progress has occurred during the past year in the food industry, and more especially in the dairy sector, there is still room for improvement.

In making the case for continuing heavy capital investment in all stages of agriculture, and in the context of the £61.5 million investment by farmers, one realises that the £10 million negotiated by the Government from the World Bank is only a small contribution. While in Opposition members of the present Government criticised the Fianna Fáil administration for the absence of a bold, expansionist policy towards agricultural development, especially capital investment. The record of the Government since it took office is not very good. The only Irish company to date to avail of the European Independent Bank grant scheme is the Sugar Company. Other food processing industries could have applied for grants.

I understand that the United Kingdom Government have applied for a total of £97.6 million of grants from the guidance section of FEOGA, the common agricultural fund. Approximately £25 million is available for investment in milk processing, while £27 million is intended for co-operative projects. Of the total of 104 applications for the £97.6 million, 17 projects pertained to Northern Ireland at a value of £21.3 million.

Ireland could have done better but for the bungling of the Government and the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries. Advertising in the newspapers regarding availability of FEOGA grants is just not good enough. The Government can be charged, fairly and squarely, with lack of initiative in this instance. Emphasising the essentiality of continued capital investment in Irish agriculture raises the necessity of a proper expansionist long-term programme for development. At the very minimum the Government should have an agricultural development blueprint for the next four years, that is until the end of transitional membership in 1977. The objective of this programme should be to bring all facets of Irish agriculture, at farm, factory and marketing levels, up to full European Economic Community competitive standards.

In the context of a development programme for Irish agriculture, where now, Sir, are Fine Gael's promises of a long term programme for agriculture, a rural development authority and a national agricultural council? Are these to be regarded as promises which have conveniently dropped now and hidden away? To my mind, there is an absence of Government policy on the re-organisation of the agricultural advisory service and its association with the Agricultural Research Institute, An Foras Talúntais and the development sections of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. Why has there been no progress here, especially when we are now in the EEC? It is not for the want of pressing the Minister to come to a decision as quickly as possible.

Whatever final arrangements are made, it would be desirable not to have the advisory service under the direct control of the Department. I wonder if there is a possibility that the advisory service, the county committees of agriculture and certain sections of the Department may be incorporated in the revised advisory service. I would like to know where the Minister sees the county committees of agriculture fitting into the revised scheme. I support the county committees of agriculture. Everything possible should be done for their retention. I would go further. I would give them added importance. I would suggest to the Minister that the county committees of agriculture should give at least 25 per cent representation to members of rural bodies such as the national farmers, the milk suppliers, Macra na Feirme, the ICA and other farming organisations at country level which have strong representation within a particular county because of that county's farm production programme.

Under agricultural development one could make a case for greater investment by the Government in agricultural research now that the EEC bonanza is available to us despite, as I said earlier, all the efforts of the Labour Party. It would seem that the current Government policy is that An Foras Talúntais should receive a static Government contribution in the future and generate additional funding externally. In discussing expanded investment in agricultural research the priority for such agricultural research should, as recommended by the National Science Council, now switch from the production to the processing stage. This is especially true of food processing research in both (a) meat and meat products and (b) dairy products.

The Minister talked about matching £ for £ any producer investment in dairy products research. A levy of 1p per gallon of milk would realise £600,000. I should like to know what progress, if any, has taken place here. On the EEC negotiations the Minister can be accused of a lack of success or a lack of progress in removing the undesirable features of the CAP. We are all disappointed that he has no progress to report with regard to his common agricultural policy for lambs and sheep. Agreement has not been reached on a scheme for hillside and underprivileged farming. It is fair to say that previous ministerial representations at the EEC was above reproach. The present ministerial representation has been remiss for the reasons I have given.

The Coalition Government strongly criticised Fianna Fáil for not having agriculture represented on the old National Industrial and Economic Council, the old NIEC. However, once again this Government have not been consistent because, when elected to office, they did not give agriculture a seat on the previously created National Prices Commission, despite strong pleas from the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers' Association. Accordingly, farmers are justified in having major reservations in regard to price increases for animal feeding stuffs. I should like to quote from The Irish Times. The ICMSA in a statement after a meeting in Limerick said:

The National Council took "strong exception" to the Minister's remarks at Question Time in the Dáil last week when he said that in considering price increases for animal feeding stuffs he had to be guided by the increased costs incurred in compounders.

This attitude is safeguarding the interests of the compounders to the detriment of farmers using the feeding stuffs. Our association has pointed out to the Minister for Industry and Commerce that we consider that the National Prices Commission as presently constituted is incompetent to deal properly with demands for increases in the costs of inputs to agriculture at farm production level.

The statement concludes:

While the Minister for Industry and Commerce from his Dáil statement appears intent on safeguarding the livelihoods of the feed compounders, we regard it as the duty of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries to protect the users of animal feeds by ensuring that a system of free competition exists in the animal feed industry, rather than a system which protects the compounders only.

I quoted that almost in full because at Question Time on Thursday last the Minister said he had not seen it.

I hesitate to interrupt the Deputy but I have given him a lot of latitude on this matter of the price of animal foodstuffs. He will appreciate that this area is the responsibility of another Minister. It is not the responsibility of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries.

I beg to differ, Sir.

Surely it is impossible to discuss the subject of agriculture——

I said that I have given the Deputy a lot of latitude. I do not want the debate to range around matters appertaining to another Minister rather than the Minister in possession.

They are both involved.

They are both very much involved. You cannot talk about one and not about the other. I will try to draw my remarks on that sphere to a conclusion by saying that it appears, not only to me but to many people throughout the country, that the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries is not supporting the best interests of the farmers.

Earlier, I referred briefly to cereals. The June 1973 statistics show a significant drop on 1972, which was even lower than 1971. In the two years the total drop has been at least 30 per cent. The obvious recommendation is that we should grow more cereals to become more self-sufficient because otherwise we must import these crops. Because of the attractiveness of livestock, both dairying and beef, Irish farmers have lost confidence in tillage crops as an enterprise. The Minister should take immediate steps to restore grower confidence or we will become increasingly dependent on imports. We should reduce our dependence on such imports because of the high prices involved and also because of unavailability. Both these features appeared during the past year due to the infamous United States grain sales to Russia.

The future of Erin Foods appears to be in some doubt arising from the take-over bid by the Lough Egish Co-Operative. The Sugar Company, the Minister for Finance or the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries have not made any statement to clear the air and, in the absence of a clarifying statement, rumours of a factory close-down and redundancy have been rampant. It is essential that the Government immediately dispel these rumours, thereby restoring the morale of the company staff and the confidence of the growers.

It is necessary to re-emphasise the importance of agriculture to the national economy; it is our principal industry. A debate at national level on this subject is very important. Under the heading of food processing industry, one might consider such features as the total utilisation of both primary and by-products and greater diversification in product range especially through dairying and pigmeat. With regard to meat, I might refer to my earlier point of dead meat gaining over live cattle. One should express a preference for primal cuts of meat being exported rather than whole quarter carcases. We must get away from the unbranded carcase meat and move to identifiable Irish-labelled consumer meat cuts. Consideration should also be given to diversifying from cheddar cheese and moving into high value, sophisticated continental cheeses.

While An Bord Bainne are becoming a co-operative marketing structure, I should like to know what will be the future of the Pigs and Bacon Commission and the Irish Livestock Board under EEC conditions. Are there steps to bring their constitutions in line with EEC regulations? Is any attempt being made to co-ordinate commodity marketing of the various agricultural products into one overall agricultural marketing or promotions board, such as a Córas Tráchtála for Irish food products?

The Minister had quite a lot to say about the common agricultural policy. All those who have any interest in the EEC will be aware of its significance. Since the recent enlargement of the EEC, opposition to the common agricultural policy has strengthened considerably, giving rise to heated discussion and debate. Of course, the opponents of the CAP say its very existence is responsible for high food prices within the Community. Arising from this, there has been the criticism of surplus production of dairy products and grain. It is probably fair to assume that industrial countries such as Germany and Britain have been loudest in their condemnation of the CAP and are openly committed to drastic and major changes in the policy while it is being reviewed. Agricultural countries such as Ireland and France naturally are most anxious to preserve the CAP as it is, or with improvements if possible, because of its guaranteed prices for agricultural products.

There is a fundamental difference in the thinking of members of the Community in connection with this matter and unless some acceptable and agreed policy is worked out there is reason to fear for the Community itself. Because of the possible—and I say only possible—disintegration of the Community itself, it is of vital importance that there be a very strong defence of the common agricultural policy because some of the criticism levelled against it are legitimate and probably justifiable. We must remember that of all the Community policies the CAP is longest in operation and, because of this fact, it is constantly under scrutiny, more especially so since it consumes up to 80 per cent of the Community budget. That being so, it is a natural target for knocking by those who are not happy with the Community's financial structure.

I suggest any defence of the common agricultural policy is closely associated with dairy products and, of course, the EEC intervention arrangements for such products. This intervention, so far as butter and skim milk powder are concerned, comes to 40 per cent of the CAP fund and is a major charge on the Community budget as a whole. Needless to say, the very existence of the butter mountain, arising from the supports for dairy products, is a major cause for concern and grave dissatisfaction with the CAP, particularly to countries such as Germany and Britain.

The opposition to this butter mountain grew very strong recently when the Russians more or less helped themselves to it. The reaction against butter surpluses prevented agreement being reached on a common policy for hill and disadvantaged farming because of Irish and French demands to include dairying in any such scheme. The situation is becoming so serious so far as the Community as a whole is concerned that Commissioner Lardinois has gone so far as to state that a Community-wide producer levy to underwrite some of the butter excess might be introduced. I would not accept his proposal because a more positive approach might be embarked on. It is necessary to orientate the Community's present intervention programme for dairy produce so as to obviate its most glaring limitations. I would argue further that a two-pronged approach must be adopted to overcome the two major problems associated with current EEC intervention support for dairy produce.

It is accepted that a big disadvantage of the present EEC dairy policy is the overpricing of milk fat relative to both milk proteins and to vegetable fats and oils. This pricing imbalance restricts butter consumption and has led to the necessity for financing the disposal of surplus butter by the EEC at artifically low prices. It can be argued that the logical approach to this problem is the correct manipulation of the pricing mechanism which would lead to a more equitable price ratio between milk fat and milk proteins. The fact that the Commissioner for Agriculture supported recently the proposal of a 50/50 price ratio between these two most important milk constituents is a considerable advance on the 58/42 ratio in operation currently.

In the US the current percentage of milk value on skim milk is 53 per cent leaving milk fat at only 47 per cent of total milk value. This applies only to wholemilk channelled into the butter-skimpowder product mix. The reason for this pricing adjustment is simply that any reduction in the value of milk fat would make it more competitive with substitute vegetable fats and oils resulting in the stimulation of butter consumption.

It is agreed readily that, as essential as is this approach, it possesses only limited potential. The Germans say that a 10 per cent reduction in the price of butter would only increase butter consumption by 2 per cent or 3 per cent. Also, there is the danger that an upward adjustment of skim milk powder might, in turn, lead to a milk powder mountain. At the moment animal feeding accounts for 75 per cent of EEC utilisation of dried skim milk.

The 50/50 price ratio between milk fat and non-fat would raise the intervention price for skim milk powder from £310 to £361 per ton and it might become too expensive for animal feeding at this higher price, especially as competitive protein feeds such as the soya have been reduced from the abnormally highly-inflated prices of last year. A lesson might be learned also from the Americans, who have been able to utilise their skim milk powder optimally in human food outlets with animal feed accounting for a marginal 0.6 per cent. However, the final and the most critical objection associated with relative pricing adjustments between milk fat and milk protein is that it reduces in no way total butter production. In effect it brings us to a second major limitation of the current intervention programme, that is the complementary nature of the two products involved. It is obvious that one cannot manufacture skim powder without an associated production of butter, leading inevitably to a surplus.

It is accepted generally now within the Community that because of the present EEC dairy policy increasing milk production results in an almost parallel growth of the intervention products, and the logical step then under this even more objectionable limitation is to widen the intervention network so as to positively discourage butter production. Obviously the only effective means of reducing butter production is to give at least equal, if not preferential, encouragement to the manufacture of products based on whole milk. Acceptance of this logic poses the question of which wholemilk dairy products should be embraced in an expanded intervention network. The answer is wholemilk cheeses, both hard and semi-hard. These wholemilk cheeses are storable and, therefore, can be sold into intervention. Cheddar cheese, together with butter and skim milk powder, is included in the US price support programme for dairy products. This confirms that there are no insuperable problems in the storing of these products. Wholemilk cheese represents the leading wholemilk base-to-product category, in terms of milk uptake being much more significant than wholemilk powder.

Wholemilk cheese is the only high fat dairy product enjoying world-wide increased consumption, especially in Western Europe and the US. The increase in consumption is of the order of 12 per cent compared with last year. Therefore, because of both the desirable consumer demand for cheese and the milk uptake potential, an effective EEC dairy products policy should divert milk into cheese manufacture rather than into a butter-skim-powder combination.

Every effort should be made to get agreement from Brussels for an examination and eventual adoption of these recommendations: the adjustment of the relative pricing of milk fat versus milk proteins and a widening of the intervention network to embrace hard and semi-hard wholemilk cheeses. If these recommendations are adopted, EEC dairy surpluses, particularly the butter mountain, should be brought to manageable levels and this would probably result in a diminution of the opposition from Britain and Germany to the Common Agricultural Policy, bringing about a more favourable review of that policy.

At this stage I should like to address a special word to the Minister. We know of the antagonism and opposition of the socialist group in Europe and we know membership of this socialist group includes the Minister's political bedfellows of the Labour Party. The Minister is obliged therefore, to let us know where the Labour Party stands on this issue. I hope the Minister's reply in this regard will be a clear, full and concise statement.

I have put forward these suggestions in good faith for examination and study by the officials in the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. I believe my criticism was, on the whole, constructive. I know that the Minister will do his best for, and on behalf of, the people of this country as did his predecessors, Deputies J. Gibbons, Blaney, Haughey and Smith. These Deputies were Ministers for Agriculture through the 1960s, a period in which Irish agriculture got off its knees under sound Fianna Fáil policies and guidance from the Government.

I hope that whoever is Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries in coming years will be able to paint as bright, rosy and healthy a picture as the present Minister has painted because every one of us, irrespective of our political affiliations, realise and appreciate the importance of agriculture for the country. Nobody would disagree with me when I say that if anything happened to our agricultural industry the rest of the country would feel the draught as well.

In line with the previous speaker, I would like to compliment the Minister on his performance to date. He has made a great impact on his job at home and abroad. The Department of Agriculture and Fisheries is one of the most important, if not the most important, departments in the Government. More than 65 per cent of our population are gainfully employed in agriculture.

I should also like to compliment the Minister on his performance in working out a common agricultural policy in co-operation with other EEC Ministers. Irish agriculture now has for the first time an opportunity of competing in an open market. This is something new and we can thank the EEC situation for this. Under various Anglo-Irish Trade Agreements we were always up against the cheap food policy of the UK which meant, as happened in recent years, giving away frozen horticultural produce.

No government of any country could continue to stand this type of business. It has been generally realised by our urban counterparts that the farming community were not the lame ducks they were supposed to be. Farmers have proved that, given the opportunity, they can be competitive and do not need the sort of subsidising that has taken place down the years.

While our gross output, as mentioned by the Minister, is £478 million, it is as well to realise that farming costs are soaring. Gross incomes are also rising at a fantastic rate but all these details can be very misleading. It is as well, therefore, to point out that most farmers, if not all of them, are still grossly uncapitalised. Indeed, all their resources and anything they can borrow are being channelled into improving their farms and now they can see some justification for this investment. The fact that credit is now available to farmers is an indication that the lending authorities, the Agricultural Credit Corporation and the banks, see that they are on a sound wicket. The tragedy is that this money was not available to the farming community when it was cheap.

With the EEC membership there are additional demands on the farming community with regard to hygiene, better standards, higher stocking rates and higher costs of fertilisers. While farm incomes are up on last year, it should be remembered that in order to be able to compete in this ruthless EEC situation farmers will need, for many years, all the money they can lay their hands on. It is imperative for this country to have a sound and well-financed rural community.

I have sometimes been accused of speaking too much on behalf of farmers. This may be so but there was some justification for this. Some people seem to forget the vast amount of employment that agriculture is giving in this country. I had occasion recently to visit a local co-operative society and I was astonished to find that 1,700 people were employed there. It could be said that 1,700 families in that town were benefiting from this co-op. These industries can never go wrong because the raw materials for them are grown at home.

The Minister had a lot to say about agricultural education by the advisory service. It is a long time since I attended my first winter class in a cold country school, and I should like to join with the Minister in complimenting the advisers of that time, in particular, who had nothing going for them but did a great job in passing on the rudiments of agriculture. Although some of us were inclined to resist the advice that was given, slowly but surely, the agricultural advisers won the confidence of the farmers. The pity of it is that they are so busy nowadays that they can devote very little of their time to what is fundamental to their work that is, teaching farmers new techniques.

I am not underrating the value of pilot farms in special areas but every farm is an entity with its own peculiar problems. More money should be made available from the Central Fund to provide at least twice as many agricultural advisers as we have now. Another point is that much of their time is still being taken up on technical jobs on which technicians could be employed, for instance, soil sampling. However, for the immediate future and to remedy the present ills more advisers should be appointed. We have the graduates. Only the other day in my own country there were quite a number of applicants for very few posts. Funds should be made available to employ all these people forthwith, because they are badly needed.

I should like to compliment the voluntary organisations, Macra na Tuaithe and Macra na Feirme, for what they are trying to do. Recently they made a submission to the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, and I hope it will be treated favourably. They are not really asking for something for nothing. They are prepared to put up £ for £ themselves. This shows how genuine and enthusiastic they are and, indeed, how well got they are with the various people around the country who are prepared to contribute generously towards Macra na Feirme.

Agricultural education, however, must be looked at from a broader point of view. My mother did not go beyond the national school, but when she left it she knew a lot more about agriculture than I did when I left national school. She knew all about botany and could identify the various wild plants around the place. She knew all about gardening and horticulture, about the treatment of fruit trees and shrubs, and all these things that go to make life more pleasant in the country. These subjects should be included in the curriculum. The Department will have to consult the Department of Education with a view to having agricultural science and other such subjects included in the curriculum, even at primary level, particularly in our rural schools. Agricultural science should also be taught at secondary level, and our universities should recognise it as a subject for matriculation.

The farmers of the future will really be up against it when it comes to competing with Europeans. They have a much more sophisticated kind of education, profit and loss accounts, balance sheets and so on. In Ireland farm accounts are done in a very rudimentary fashion. People who are going to secondary schools and who wish to be agricultural scientists, veterinary surgeons, or anything else to do with agriculture, would be well advised to take all these subjects as part of their course.

The Minister mentioned in his Estimate speech the erection of a new extension for dairy science and food technology in Cork. This is long overdue. We could very well lose that Kelloggs Foundation grant. There is some hold-up at the moment with regard to the cost per square foot, but whatever the cause of the delay, it is very important to have this project completed.

The Minister also spoke about doing something for veterinary surgeons. We could be caught out in the near future with a shortage of vets. Personally, I do not like the limitation of so many veterinary students per annum. With brucellosis eradication, with general stock care, and with the value of stock nowadays, no farmer has any hesitation in ringing for his veterinary surgeon, but very often he is not available. Veterinary surgeons are grossly overworked due to the various schemes, TB testing and so on. The Department should allow at least three or four times as many students to enter this profession. Apparently the present premises are not adequate. It is like the factory problem. Somebody buys an old premises and tries to establish a factory on it. Very often he would be wiser to get a new site. I should like to see the veterinary faculty on the same campus as the agricultural faculty, as is the case in New Zealand. However, there is dire need for a completely new veterinary college.

I would endorse everything the Minister said about the Institute. As I said on a previous occasion, never before was so much good work done by so few for so many with so little. They have always been short of money and now more than ever they will need a great deal of money. Mention has been made of sugar not paying, green peas not paying, cereals not paying. I doubt very much that we have exhausted the potential of any of these crops. We are inclined to rely far too much on overseas varieties. We have not gone very far in improving yields. Given the full resources of the State I am quite sure the Agricultural Institute would come up with much better varieties more suitable to our climate. We are using the Swedish variety of sugar beet. I am sure the Agricultural Institute could produce a new and more suitable variety. The variety we are using does not seem to have the same sugar content as some of our earlier beet had. The content is what really matters.

I should like to compliment the Agricultural Institute on what they are doing at Moore Park. They are doing good work in Carlow but I am more familiar with the work they are doing in Moore Park. I should like to see more open days. I should like to see more work being done with new protein foods. They have been doing some work with urea and with skim milk-powders as a substitute for soya bean meal. They have a great deal to contribute in the field of protein production.

Silage is becoming more important and more widespread; some people however have not been very successful with silage. The Agricultural Institute could contribute a great deal here. Again, money seems to be the problem. Our climate is excellent for producing grass.

Wonderful work is being done on the dairying end of agriculture, particularly from the point of view of hygiene. Here the Department will have to be prepared to contribute not only to the Agricultural Institute but to the co-operative societies, especially the smaller ones, which are endeavouring to provide a hygienic service to their suppliers with the advent of tanks and milking machines. Farmers are finding it difficult to produce top-class products and with the arrival of the new bacteriological count there will be some very real problems to be faced. Here the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries will have to be at the forefront, not alone laying down the rules and regulations but also giving the necessary help and encouragement to producers to produce a first-class product. We can only compete in the rough, tough market ahead if we produce the best. Every day of the week the demand for first-class products increases.

The greatest help the Department could give the farmer, particularly the small holder, would be the provision of the capital necessary to improve his holding. In conjunction with the Department of Lands capital should be provided to enable the progresseive young farmer who has proved himself to find a suitable farm.

In the past I have criticised the ACC and I should like to take this opportunity of confessing that I have had to reverse some of my first thinking. They are giving quite substantial loans to farmers to improve herd numbers. This is all to the good. It is no good putting up buildings until your herd is of top-class standard. I remember a member of the ACC saying at one time that a farmer should start spending money at the farthest point of his farm. This is the general approach of the ACC to farm borrowing. They give money freely for the development of stock and crops and eventually for buildings. Buildings are necessary. In future I should like them to go a little further and give money for the improvement of the farm home because the farm home is very much part of the farm itself.

We have made fantastic strides in beef production and in improving the quality of our beef. The importation of some of the European breeds may have helped but I still think the Friesian is an excellent animal for beef. I believe time will prove that they will stand the test. I should like all our cattle to be finished off here. We have an ideal climate and we have a definite advantage over our European counterparts. Once or twice when I had occasion to fly over Europe in the month of November it was blanketed in snow and the first bit of greenery I saw was when I arrived home here. We have a very real climatic advantage.

We should avail fully of this grass in the future. Farmers should be encouraged to finish off the animals on the farm. We should go further and process the animals, as far as possible. We provide quite a lot of employment in processing factories but we could provide infinitely more employment in the future if all our meat was processed at home.

Mention has been made of the CBF. They are doing a great job. So also are the people in Bord Bainne. However, this is a small nation and I do not think we can afford this type of multiple marketing. Even if we had all that talent for selling, and I doubt if we have, we would be much better employed marketing all our products together. It would be to the advan-finance tage of the country and the products as well, because if one product was in over supply it would help carry the product that was scarce. I should like to see one marketing organisation for the country for all our agricultural products. We have a brand name readymade for us: "Kerrygold" would suffice for all our products. It is a name that would sell itself. We could have one executive marketing man who would project the image of Irish goods abroad. We have nothing to worry about because our products are the best.

A large part of the Minister's speech was devoted to the dairy industry. I agree with much of what he said, but I would warn him not to accept any cut in price under any subterfuge whatever, levy or otherwise, in his negotiations, because this is the thin end of the wedge. If one accepts even a 2 per cent decrease, next year it could be 4 per cent and one does not know where it will stop. Those people cannot blame us for butter mountains or floods of milk. Our average is something like 450 gallons per cow. The Europeans are up around 950 to 1,000 gallons. Those people must start doing what we are now doing—producing animals with beef in mind. We are not embarrassing anybody with milk.

I should like to compliment the Minister and the Department on the assistance they have given to new developments in dairying such as the new varieties of cheese and frozen cream. We would like this encouragement and help to continue. We must look out for the best markets available. What was a very good market today could be something one would not touch tomorrow. This has happened in the case of some of our smaller chocolate crumb plants. That is not to say that they could not be brought back into full production when the time is right.

I should like to refer briefly to the processed food industry, of which I have some little knowledge. Personally I am not pessimistic. This industry has survived many problems. It survived the situation in which, due to a cheap food policy in the UK, processed vegetables had to be given away. We had to do it. That situation is not likely to recur for a number of reasons, the principal one being that we are now in the EEC and we can command as good a price as the next for our products.

This is an area where overall marketing would be a big help to Erin Foods, because if there is a weakness it is in marketing. If we had an overall marketing structure it would be of very valuable assistance to this weaker arm. I know something about the factories. I believe we are producing a top class product and I have ascertained that we are producing it competitively. We should have nothing to fear. All we need worry about in regard to Erin Foods is that the product is sold to the best possible advantage. Much work can be done if the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Agricultural Institute look to better varieties for processed crops. We have some very old stagers in green peas, and while yields have been reasonably good I have no doubt that with research they could be made infinitely better. The same would apply to carrots. There is a demand now for an extra red variety of carrot. All these things will have to be kept in mind. It may be that we will have to do some home breeding of various products. I have the utmost confidence in Erin Foods solving its own difficulties without any outside interference. I am emphatic about that. They have gone through some very rough weather, but there is now a demand for frozen products. They came in with frozen products a little prematurely. The UK housewife was not geared to cope with those products and the UK was accepting food from all over the world at very low prices. That is over now. We are in an EEC situation. It does not matter who is importing; goods must be sold at the going prices.

I agree with the Minister about the sugar beet industry. Many people are employed in this industry. I would be concerned if there was any decrease in interest in beet as a crop. At the moment the beet price is not as good as the prices for cereals. Farmers should not put all their eggs in one basket. They ought to continue beet production. With some ingenuity much could be done within the price framework laid down by the EEC. We have a big quota for sugar at the moment but it will cost the industry up to £1 million this year if the crop is good. The Minister should try to do something about this. We should be better treated in regard to quotas. There is such a thing as being entitled to a certain number of tons.

We note the EEC treatment of Ireland under the heading of regional development. They should look at Ireland with a view to giving us a decent A quota for sugar beet. If we had this, farmers would get up to £10 per ton for their beet. More beet would be grown. It would not cost the company all the money which they now have to pay to Brussels. The EEC are prepared to spend money in developing new industries and in helping the west of the country in particular. It should be remembered that beet factories already exist. If the EEC are interested in us and genuine about our welfare they can contribute in this area by allowing us to grow sufficient sugar for the Thirty-two Counties. We are the logical source of supply for the North. They use fantastic amounts of sugar. This small concession would mean little to the French in terms of tons. Something like this must be done if the beet industry is to survive. The beet crop is important from a rotation point of view also. If beet production lessens we will have to find money to import sugar. Sugar would then be very expensive.

Sugar beet contributes much to the beef and dairying industry. I should like to compliment the Sugar Company on the production of pulp. They added soya bean meal and tried using urea in endeavouring to produce an all-round ration. This year in particular, when feed is so expensive, the company have done much to help farmers with the wintering of their stock.

The Minister should ensure that fertilisers will be readily available this year. They are essential for the tillage crops. There are rumours about their scarcity. Scarcity would result in price rises at a time when the farmers could do little about them. The Minister should examine carefully ways of cutting down fertiliser costs generally. He should examine the position in regard to bulk spreading which would eliminate the use of expensive plastic containers.

The Minister is concerned about land which is not in top condition. We all know that a vast amount of Irish land is out of production. We must start clearing our rivers and work towards making farms more productive. Drainage and reclamation work are useless unless the rivers are properly drained. Under EEC conditions agricultural land will become more valuable and even land which was considered waste bogland in the past can now be brought to full production. Any land can be brought to production by drainage and the use of lime, except possibly some mountain land. There are sophisticated methods of grazing which make it possible to use large tracts of lands previously considered unusable. We must use our resources to the full. The Minister referred to the fact that fewer people are now employed in agriculture. Three times as many people could be employed in agriculture if all the land could be brought to full production.

The Department of Agriculture and Fisheries have given great help to new industries. I mentioned earlier frozen cream and cheese. We should also examine the position in regard to home-based Irish machinery manufacturers. These manufacturers have had problems over the years but now, with the exorbitant cost of imported equipment, they can benefit. The Sugar Company are doing an excellent job. They have produced a top-class sugar harvester and they are now working on a forage harvester.

This is a great thing because not only will it give tremendous employment in Carlow but it is good for our morale when we go abroad to see, as far away as in North America, an Irish machine harvesting sugar beet and doing a good job. I had the pleasure of seeing it. I should like more help to be given to anybody, even small family factories—we have a few of them—because, basically, most farm machines are simple and we have plenty of young people—we saw this recently—with new ideas but to implement these ideas and put them into commercial production requires help and encouragement from the Department.

One area of farming which is giving many people much worry at the moment is that of farm costs. Transport is one that immediately comes to mind. Somebody recently said, with what truth I do not know, that it costs as much to bring something from here to London as from Argentina to London. If true, that is an appalling situation. Farmers themselves are to blame here because they should go in for planned production with more streamlining. If a boat is tied up in Dublin because of delay in filling it we are all to blame. Much could be done here in regard to farm costs if the whole question of transport is tackled with determination and tackled now.

I should like to see individuals getting a better chance. Because of legislation and regulations many people who previously got quite a lot of work and were able to raise families by using lorries to draw farm produce to the local markets now find that due to the restriction of 15 miles, or whatever it is, they are virtually out of business. I should like more competition in the whole area of farm transport. While we are very grateful for the freeing of the livestock end of it, that freedom should extend into all areas of agriculture, especially in regard to sugar beet. It would make the business more competitive if more vehicles were available and give a better service which is also important.

I should like to compliment the Department on its work through the years. Through their structures, the county committees of agriculture, they won the confidence of the farming community and if there are short-comings—and there are many at the moment—it is because of their lack of numbers. This is the big problem now: we have not nearly sufficient agricultural advisers and this is a pity when qualified people are available and cannot get jobs. This is a matter which should be examined immediately with a view to doubling the number of advisers and so helping the economy and the farming community.

I should like to compliment the Minister personally on his performance in office. He is doing a top class job. Perhaps he has many things going for him at present with an improved EEC situation that some of his colleagues in the past did not have. I am proud of his dealings with his counterparts abroad in particular. We in the Sugar Beet Association had some small experience of these people and it is only fair to say that the Minister is up against top-class operators in Europe and he is proving well equal to them. I hope he will have the opportunity of continuing to do this good work for many a long day.

When we come to discuss the subject of Irish agriculture nowadays we talk in a totally different context from that of four or five years ago because of the enormous step we took on February 1st in our final entry into the European Community. We hope that the difficulties which beset Irish farming down through the years of domination, actual physical and economic domination by the British which until this year we did not succeed in ridding ourselves of, will be resolved. That domination has finally gone, we hope. There has been a visible and rapid transformation in the whole farming picture since it became clear that we were about to enter the EEC.

Nevertheless, it is interesting and also rather depressing to notice the strange Pontius Pilate attitude of some Labour Party members of the Government at present when they detect the slightest faltering of confidence, the smallest whimper of discontent. It is depressing when the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries goes on his all-important missions to council meetings in Brussels to feel: can he really depend on the full support of all his colleagues? The common agricultural policy which is our main interest in the EEC is coming under attack at present from the European socialists more than from any other source and it is depressing to find the Labour Party colleagues of the Minister sitting abjectly in the European Parliament beside European socialists whose stated intention is to dismantle the common agricultural policy or to alter it so drastically as to put the farmers of Europe, as well as of Ireland, back into a mendicant condition, a condition which we feel we are guaranteed freedom from in the Treaty of Rome.

Possibly, these members of the present Government to whom I refer are beset by their old allegiances, which they may or may not have dropped, to peculiar Marxist creeds which they only ceased to advocate when they became politicians with the manifest desire to become members of Government. It is possible that the philosophies they supported at that time may now be peeping through their attitudes. I do not envy the Minister his present ministry in such an Irish Government. My unease is shared by a great many people throughout the country, especially in the farming industry.

This Government derive their existence from promises made at the beginning of the year which have since been flagrantly and cynically broken. That is the reason why this Government are now in office. I make no charge against the Minister only in so far as he is a member of one of the parties which perpetrated this massive deception and cynical betrayal of promises most solemnly made in the early part of the year. I am talking about the promises they made in the matter of prices. An Agriculture Estimate cannot be discussed without prices being discussed. Without reservation the electorate were told that the National Coalition Government would take immediate steps to control prices.

On a point of order, is the Minister talking about agricultural prices or industrial prices?

Is that a point of order?

Industrial prices would not come within the scope of the Agricultural Estimate.

As I said before I was interrupted, it is impossible to discuss an Agricultural Estimate unless we discuss prices. The price of animal feed has increased by £26 or £27 a ton and is still increasing. Fertiliser prices have increased by 13 per cent to 15 per cent since this Government took office. It is legitimate for me or any other Deputy to discuss agricultural inputs.

Far from the present Government abolishing death duties, as they solemnly and unequivocally promised, certain succession duties were doubled in the last budget. The Government are now telling the farmers that, instead of abolishing death duties completely, they will give them a White Paper. That is like the famous case of somebody asking for bread and being given a stone. I do not know if Deputy E. Collins is a party to the general deception or not. I do not know precisely what his position is within the present ménage, but I doubt very much if he will dare deny that what I have said about these broken promises is accurate and right.

When we discuss Irish agriculture we are talking about an industry whose progress was retarded by the inescapable obligation to sell on the British market at prices which the British indicated. In many cases we had to sell our surpluses in any part of the world at whatever prices we could get. As late as 1970 our dairy industry sold butter in places such as Mexico and Algeria for as little as 6d. per lb. It was inevitable that the development of our full potential was never reached. As Deputy E. Collins said, reiterating an estimation made by the Agricultural Institute, it is perfectly clear to any farmer such as myself without any difficulty that it should be possible to double the livestock carrying of our pasture land and to increase the livestock carrying capacity of our marginal lands. Hill and mountain pastures are at present used for grazing mountain sheep. Ideally the quality of these marginal lands could be dramatically improved. They could be used for the maintenance of cattle and sheep. The use of such land by two kinds of cattle will be very important when the Minister comes to discuss the assignment of aids to hill farming. He should take a very strong stand on the necessity of ensuring that in the development of hill land and the provision of aids for that development, the land will be stocked with both cattle and sheep.

In the last few days Commissioner Lardinois made certain proposals for what he would probably call the improvement of the common agricultural policy. He very rightly said that, in order to attain real agricultural advance, and structural and social reform in the agricultural sector, it is very necessary that other EEC programmes in these areas should be brought forward in conjunction with the common agricultural policy. The biggest success of the Community since their inception has been the establishment of the common agricultural policy. None of us expects that it will be a fixed policy. None of us should hope that it would be.

Naturally we would expect to see a constructive and beneficial evolution, but its progress is being retarded to some degree by the fact that the other programmes—social, regional and structural—have not in any sense kept abreast of it. They must be made to keep abreast of it and it must be our concern, and the concern of the Minister and his colleagues in so far as they are willing and able, to see that these different programmes, which together add up to the social and economic well-being of our people, go forward together.

The British, and the Germans, having as they do a Socialist Government, are most vocal in advocating an anti-structural, very expensive and administratively impossible system of doles to support the farmers. We do not want that type of system imposed upon us. We do not want to become mendicants. What we joined for in the first place was to get into an organisation of States where we could sell the produce of our fields and our lands at an economic price and thereby give to the farmers of this country and, indeed, of every country, incomes comparable to incomes in industry. This objective is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome. I am afraid that, if the friends of the Labour Party have their way in Europe, the secure position we have now chiselled out for ourselves, in spite of the Labour Party, will be nibbled away again.

We are causing the Deputy a lot of worry.

I have seen them in action. Deputy Coughlan should talk to his colleagues in the Labour Party, and especially the more Marxist of them, and tell them they should go into conference with their colleagues in Europe and say that the future well-being of this country depends upon a prosperous agriculture.

Who are the de Gaulles of Europe?

They should tell them to stop attacking the common agricultural policy. We will all love the European socialists dearly if they will stop doing that, but they show no signs of it. Deputy Coughan knows very well that the future of his fellow citizens in the Lansdowne plant in Limerick is bound up very intimately with a prosperous dairy industry. If his socialist colleagues get their way, there will be no Lansdowne plant and no prosperous dairy industry.

I have no doubt about it.

The Deputy should stop interrupting me because he is in a very weak position, indeed, he and his socialist brethren——

Wait until I am finished.

——with whom he now shares the Government benches, the Minister included as well.

There was dissatisfaction in the Fianna Fáil Party, too.

We are all right and we will be back there before long.

Back where? Back to the wall?

I know the Deputy for too long and he should know me long enough, too.

The Deputy should know me also.

Deputy Coughlan will have an opportunity to make his contribution later.

If we are so insignificant why is he so worried?

I am sorry that I have got under Deputy Coughlan's socialist skin. His European colleagues and some of his Irish colleagues are determined to wreck the common agricultural policy. This party will stop them if we are able, and I think we are able. I was talking about our potential for development.

While Deputy Hegarty was speaking the béal bocht approach peeped through a lot of what he had to say: a little encouragement should be given. I believe we should adopt a more constructive attitude than that. We are not beggarmen. We have tremendous resources here which are required in Europe. I cannot say at the moment what precisely the tonnage of beef shortfall is in Europe but, for a long time to come, Europe will be about 90 per cent self-sufficient in beef. We can supply pretty well all the shortfall. Consumption of beef and other kinds of meat is rising in the EEC. Our production of meat is rising at a faster rate. I should like to see it rising at an increasingly faster rate.

Let us not approach our fellow members of the Community in a mendicant béal bocht way, as Deputy Hegarty appeared to do. Let us tell them that we can become a valuable member and that we are a valuable member in supplying so much of their requirements but that our potential to double that production is there waiting for development. We cannot be blamed for being a little discouraged when we hear the Commissioner, M. Lardinois, talking in terms of savings of 1,200 million units of account in the FEOGA Fund in the next five years. It is very hard to say to farmers that you will help them by taking what amounts to about £600 million from them in the next five years, but this is what Commissioner Lardinois was talking about.

Mainly, as I see it, the pressures within the Council of Ministers arise between food-producing nations such as ourselves, the Danes and the French, and heavily industrialised nations such as Britain and Germany. While I was Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries last year, in the negotiations which preceded our entry and afterwards, I always found that our most constant opponent was the British Minister for Agriculture. Almost invariably our interest clashed with the British interest because their interest always was and continues to be the procurement of food for their people wherever it can be procured at the lowest possible price. If they can twist the common agricultural policy towards that, they can be depended upon to do it. They will get some support, I imagine, from the German Socialist Government.

We would need at all times to be on our guard against, as Wolfe Tone said, the never-failing source of all our woes. That still continues to be the case, but in a different ball game, fortunately. We are not totally at their mercy any more. Talking of the British and the European food market generally, it is remarkable how they succeeded in dragging what used to be their empire in behind them. New Zealand butter, New Zealand lamb, Australian meat products and dairy products, sugar from the West Indies, cheese from Canada: they are all getting in to some extent to flood the food markets which we as a member of the EEC should be supplying to the exclusion of those countries. I would urge the Minister to lose no opportunity of bashing Commonwealth imports as hard as he can and in enlisting the help of anyone who will support him. I can assure him there is such support within the Council of Ministers. The Minister should make sure he leaves no stone unturned to hit Commonwealth imports into the EEC.

I imagine the machinations of the British in their recent attitudes towards regional policy produced the sorry result we have, where the regional fund is proposed to be allocated on a kind of quota basis. It appears this country will get 4 per cent or somewhat less, while the enormously wealthy Danes and Germans will get many times the amount of assistance we will get. Our attitude should not be like a beggar at the door. We should emphasise at all times that we do not want charity; we want investment in the resources we have and we want assistance to make that investment ourselves.

In his most recent document M. Lardinois puts a proper emphasis on consumer protection. It is not in the interests of any food producer to disregard the interests of the person who will buy his products, but I would expect an agricultural commissioner to swing his favour towards the producer rather than the consumer. I do not think M. Lardinois will do that.

Since the establishment of the Community, there has been and still is in Europe a notion that farmers can be rationalised off the land, especially poorer farmers whose incomes are not high enough. They are a damn nuisance in the opinion of these people—mostly socialists—and there is the idea that they can be given doles of rationalised completely out of agriculture. This idea is not dead and it should be our Minister's job to try to kill it on the basis that it runs totally contrary to the fundamental precepts of the Treaty of Rome.

I did not mean to do this and I apologise in advance to Deputy Coughlan, but it is a most peculiar thing to study the socialist attitude to the common agricultural policy. While socialists by definition are in favour of wage and status increases for industrial workers, they are quite prepared to get these increases at the expense of the rural workers. They would not have the slightest compunction or hesitation in reducing prices if they were let away with it and thus reducing the incomes of the farmers who produce the food. They are interested in getting cheap food and they do not care at whose expense they obtain it. Putting it that way, it is a fair enough definition of a socialist. Our poor Labour Party are trotting along behind this bunch in an oddly ambiguous way; but the best thing to do is to leave it, because when the electorate get their hands on the Labour Party they will settle that score.

That is wishful thinking.

I spoke earlier of our untapped potential in regard to the deficiencies we could possibly meet. I understand they are about 800,000 tons in the case of beef and 380,000 tons in the case of sheep meat. Last December, on the eve of Christmas, I attended a Council Meeting in Brussels and I asked to examine the question of marketing sheep and, with the assistance of the French Minister, M. Chirac, and over the feeble objections of our friend the British Minister, Mr. Godber, the Council agreed that the Commission be instructed to prepare such a scheme. Last Monday, among a great many other things, M. Lardinois said that this scheme should be presented before Christmas, but I do not think it will be very satisfactory.

In the sheep market our difficulty has been the sluice-gate arrangement of the French market whereby, when domestic prices within France dropped, the sluice-gate came down and excluded any imports from this country and elsewhere until domestic prices rose. M. Lardinois's proposals as they now stand—and it is important to remember they are only proposals— envisage the creation of a minimum price system, that minimum price to be changed from time to time, but with no intervention arrangements as far as I can detect. I am certain the Minister has more up-to-date information and I would ask him to deal with this matter in his reply.

He also said rather ominously, if I heard him correctly, that in future assistance to the sheep industry would come only through grants in aid to hill farming. This runs contrary to what I was talking about some time ago, about the necessity to run both cattle and sheep on marginal mountain land. The work being done at present by the Agricultural Institute in the Maam Valley demonstrates the fact that this is the proper way to manage marginal land. It is worth noting that in the mountain land in the Maam Valley where the institute are working there is as poor mountain land as can be found in any part of Ireland.

The results that are being obtained by the Agricultural Institute in that regard are very valuable. Our exports of lamb are moderate—about 50,000 tons, I think. The lamb market is flooded by a New Zealand production of 200,000 tons of which two-thirds go to the UK market and a great deal of the remainder goes to the European market. Obviously, it is necessary for us to exercise as much influence as possible in an effort to ensure that this flood of New Zealand meat is diverted to other markets. The New Zealanders are building up new markets for themselves. Of course we could hardly advocate to the Community the cold-blooded dropping of the New Zealanders but, having accepted that, it is necessary to point out that New Zealand lamb should not be sold within the EEC in such a way as to have a detrimental effect on the producers within the Community, including ourselves.

While referring to the question of sheep, there is a matter to which I would like the Minister to give his personal attention. It is something which I encountered last year while I was in the Department. I refer to the question of the assignment of pedigree rams on lease to farmers. A very unsatisfactory situation obtained in this regard until last year at any rate. I am satisfied that many of the people to whom these sires were given were people who ought not to have got them, not because they were not good flock masters but because they were people who could well afford to buy rams. I know of several small pedigree flock masters who, because of some undetectable reason, were told by the Department that a ram would not be leased to them. As far as I can see there was a cosy arrangement in operation. I asked the Department at that time to see to it that that arrangement ceased and I am now asking the Minister to pursue the matter. The cosiness of which I speak extended to the point where prospective lessees of sires went with the Department officials to sales in Scotland and elsewhere to buy rams. This arrangement was too cosy to be good. In any event there is no reason why people who are very wealthy flock masters should be assisted in any way in securing pedigree sires but there is every reason for helping the smaller breeders. There is the reason of the very fine premium that the breeders get for each ram lamb and, indeed, for all their lambs. Fair play should be exercised in the assigning of these sires. I confess that this situation continued happily for a couple of years while I was in the Department and it was only rather inadvertently that I became aware of it. I draw the Minister's attention to it now and trust he will deal with it.

Both the Minister and Deputy Collins referred to the pig industry. It might be said that, of all the aspects of agriculture, this industry is the easiest to understand. While I was in the Department a wonderful phrase was brought to my attention. One of the backroom boys in the Department was reading through an American book—a technical book, I expect—when he came across this phrase of "the hog-corn ratio". For the uninitiated, that means the amount of corn it takes to produce a hog. When this ratio rises to an unacceptable level it is no longer economic to produce a hog. We are now receiving great prices for our bacon on the UK market, but can the Minister tell us is the hog-corn ratio better or worse now than it was, say, three or six months ago? I know that the phrase is rather ludicrous, but it is very expressive and is of great importance to pig producers, especially people who own breeding herds.

By and large the way I would like to see the pig industry developing in the future is by way of breeding herds of ten to 20 sows, because as the numbers increase the disease risk increases in a geometrical progression. For example, an outbreak of virus pneumonia among a large herd of sows would be very serious. Therefore, we should endeavour to preserve our practice of keeping breeding herds in small units. This is the ideal situation. I am not speaking of protecting inefficient operations. It is not possible to do that because of the mercilessness of the market, but I am talking of the protection of small, well-run breeding operations.

At this stage I shall refer briefly to the Lardinois proposals for the dairying industry. Dairying is the most important aspect of our agricultural industry. It involves 100,000 farmers as well as the people who work for them. M. Lardinois envisages, by the implementation of these proposals, a saving of 470 million units in the five-year period up to 1978. The most notable of his proposals is the introduction of a 2 per cent of the guide price tax on every milk producer in the Community who produces more than 10,000 litres of milk in a year. That should include all producers unless there is very bad growth or something of that nature in any year. That proposal amounts to a reduction in price. The tax will not operate in circumstances where there is no butter mountain. However, I think butter-mountain situations are more imaginary than real because there is a chronic deficiency of beef in the Community and, regardless of what the Commissioner for Agriculture may say it is not possible to have a steer unless you have a cow producing milk.

I would not go along with Deputy Hegarty when he said that we have only 450 gallon cows here. I would not advocate that we should look for a comparatively inefficient cow. The basic herd that we have got of good quality friesians should be maintained. It is my opinion that for crossing purposes the Austrian Fleckvieh would be the most suitable. I offer this purely as a personal opinion and acknowledge immediately that the livestock officials in the Department are far more confident to judge than I.

M. Lardinois's proposal to reduce the amount of support given to butter would constitute a rather sudden change in production patterns for us. The Minister rightly talked about the remarkable development of milk manufacturing that has taken place throughout the country in the last couple of years. It would compromise the continuity of this progress greatly if there was any sudden changes in production policy such as the one advocated by the commissioner. Above all, there should be no deduction in prices.

It is possible that the commissioner does not hope to get his 2 per cent tax and that he is aiming at a stabilisation of the existing price and the attainment of a position where he can resist demands for an increased price. The Minister will be able to assess that when he attends council meetings. However, I believe it is necessary that increases paid should be sufficient to compensate producers for the rapid increase in production costs.

When people discuss the butter amount and how one can get cattle without having occasionally a surplus of butter they always say "diversification of products". By now it is a cliche but there is a great deal of truth in it. Deputy Collins advocated the manufacture of whole milk cheeses and the Commission in Brussels is advocating a shifting in emphasis from intervention prices for butter and milk powder in favour of milk powder. One way or the other, what we are talking about is the basic material milk, and that is being produced all the time. If we do not have a butter mountain we will have a powder mountain, or possibly a cheese mountain.

In a world where two people out of three do not have enough to eat —in Ethiopia children are dying in their thousands for want of protein— are we being realistic when we talk glibly about what are called surpluses? Are they surpluses? Is it human to talk about a surplus when within a matter of a few hours by air there are people withering off the face of the earth because they do not have enough to eat? I hope that the Minister will pursue a constructive policy on this matter. In the world so beset by starvation where most of the inhabitants do not have enough to eat it is indecent to talk about food surpluses, surpluses of dried milk powder and surpluses of butter. There is no such thing. The economic strength and prosperity of the community as a community is big enough to be able to distribute some of its wealth to people who require it.

I should like to tell the Minister that the country watched his fight in the matter of the importation of duty free Eastern European cattle into Italy and its detrimental effect on our shipments out. We regret that the Minister failed to achieve any success in this regard. I am not in any sense blaming the Minister because I know, from personal experience, the enormous difficulties that the Minister faces in this job but I urge him to try again. I would also urge the Government to have a look at this matter from the legal point of view and see whether there is a legal case to be made. It is impossible to explain to an Irish cattle producer why it is necessary to pay 12.8 per cent levies on our exports of cattle to Italy while a third country, like Yugoslavia, can send in store cattle without paying any levy.

It is an anomaly that would be worth making a major issue of not only because of the injustices of the anomaly itself but because of the danger that this anomaly will be used as the precursor of others. It is not my intention to set the Minister up as a cockshot and blame him for everything that appears to be wrong because I know too much about the way the thing works having seen it myself. It should be our business to support the Minister because in a very real way he is working for all of us. I do not mean for a minute to suggest that we would like to join his party because presently we will be replacing him and his colleagues on the other side of the House and then he can throw the brickbats at us.

In relation to the exports of live cattle to Europe, the Minister answered, by means of a tabular statement, a question of mine some weeks ago about the average weekly prices of cattle in this country. Prices for cattle have been dropping away steadily since the 8th May and have reached the stage where they are about £3 per cwt less than they were at the peak point. Admittedly, they were probably too high early in the year and some people went mad but a great many people who did not go mad will not make a great deal of money if they are in the cattle business or have been in it for the past twelve months.

From time to time one hears urban types, the type of which the Government is almost exclusively composed, talking about the vast increase in farmers' incomes. According to them, farmers are rolling in it. There has been a notable increase in certain areas, the dairy area in particular, but this increase was overdue for decades. However, in other sectors there has been no increase. One of those sectors is the beef production area. The people involved in that business have lost tens of thousands. In the last six to eight months no money was made in that business. This is why I say it is necessary and desirable for the Government, as a Government, to tackle this business of the Yugoslavia-EEC Trade Agreement that was signed last July and, at any rate, get the anomalies taken out of it.

It is worth remembering that another of Commissioner Lardinois's proposals made last Monday is to cease the support given to calves, to veal. If he does this, from the Community point of view it is the right thing to do. Millions of calves are slaughtered on the Continent for veal. If you want to increase your meat production that is the wrong thing to do and the Commissioner is therefore right in withdrawing support for a wrong policy. However, its implication for us is this: when this begins to bite, when those calves that were not killed grow into beef, they will be in competition with ours. This argues again for a vigorous attack on the removal of this anomaly in the beef market.

I talked earlier of the baleful influence of the British in the EEC. In the case of sugar they are there again, transporting hundreds of thousands of tons of cane sugar in from the West Indies to be processed by Tate and Lyle, big refining factories in Liverpool and elsewhere, and in doing that, keeping French sugar beet growers, Belgian, Dutch, Irish, and English growers, from being able to grow their full capacity. Again, being a simple soul, I refer to the Treaty of Rome, and having perused it I feel that one of the reasons why the Community exists is for the protection of the market for the farmers of the EEC itself. In a great many other cases the baleful British come trooping in with their Empire under their arm and, to some degree at any rate, make the Community farmers poorer because it deprives them of the market which is rightfully theirs.

I should like to hear from the Minister when he is replying what are next year's proposals about quotas. It is worth remembering that only in sugar beet, as far as I know, is there a quota arrangement. The Belgians, because of their particular dependence on sugar beet have a very large quota, and ours is easily capable of expansion. It should be our right to supply the Thirty-two Counties of Ireland with all its sugar requirements and to grow the beet for that purpose. I heard rumours that in the eventual settlement of the sugar question it is possible that existing quotas may be reduced to 93 per cent. I should like the Minister to say whether that is right or wrong.

The commissioner's document seems to adumbrate a change in the relativities of the prices of wheat and barley, which is fair enough, and the withdrawal of at least some support for soft wheat, which, on the face of it, considering the realities, is fair enough again. However, I should like to know how varieties of wheat such as we have at the present time, high quality spring wheat, subjected to our really rigid, stringent tests, would fare in that kind of league. I am told that our standards for wheat are the highest in Europe. I believe that, since the flour millers introduced the celebrated Hagberg test, in order to ensure the earlier departure of the wheat-growing farmers to Heaven—I am sure it put a great many of them in the other place, too—our standards have risen very much indeed, and that Irish wheat is now the best in Europe.

The necessity for the Community and for ourselves to increase the production of feeding barley requires no explanation at all, and I think it will be secured after this year's shift in prices, I believe there will be no difficulty in getting increased acreages for barley and that without any effort at all we could become self-sufficient in barley.

I should like the Minister to tell us what his attitude would be to assisting the production of protein concentrates like rape seed. It may well be the commissioner will introduce a scheme to do this, but looking back on our experience of the protein concentrates market in the last few months, I think it would be very necessary to do it now.

On the subject of the land project, I should like the Minister to consider the desirability of giving special attention to the grants that are made available for clearing ditches and hedges. Our present field structure, the fields that make up a farm, the farms making up the whole countryside, have no relation to modern needs, and they are taking up an enormous amount of land. It is my experience doing tillage operations to find in fields with these very big ditches a difference of anything up to 10 per cent between the available acreage and the map reading.

It is quite true that an enormous area of land is available in every farm, but it requires the shifting of hedges and ditches. The Minister should ask some of his people in the Department to see if it would be worthwhile to have a special little team to do this. It would probably be necessary that approval be given to a ditch removal scheme. With the introduction of paddock grazing, especially in dairy farms, the necessity for any purpose at all for these hedges and ditches is gone, and the legend that they were useful for shelter purposes is pretty well gone also. Possibly the Minister would have a look at it.

I would also like the Minister to say, in the light of the enormous increases since 1st March in things like structural steel, cement, timber, all the things that go to build byres, hay barns, silos, whether a dramatic increase in the grants is not justified. I think a big increase is justified. I would recommend that the Minister gives us the benefit of his opinion on this subject as soon as he can.

As I said earlier, it is not my purpose —certainly it is not my purpose—to set the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries up as a cockshot for Fianna Fáil grievances because we realise the vital part he is playing for this country at Council meetings as Minister. I would reject any attack upon the Minister because, as I said, he is working for his own and, presently, as I said to him, we will be relieving him of his command. In the meantime we will give him all the help we can. He already has the help of what I would think, without being trite, without being squashing, is the best Department of Agriculture and Fisheries in Europe. I was told myself in Europe that our officers were the best in Brussels. I know more people in the Department than those who go to Brussels. There is a sense of dedication to the job, a sense of loyalty and a sense of continuity. As well as that, there is tremendous intellectual ability. We are very lucky to have all this and the Minister is very lucky to preside over it.

Deputy Gibbon's contribution was welcome. By and large, it was instructive. It is only right and proper, I suppose, that Deputy Gibbons, the former Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, should give the House the benefit of his experience and his knowledge. There were two comments he made with which I disagree, two comments to which I take exception, two comments which belittled the quality of his speech. I refer to his comments on the increase in the price of foodstuffs. It is wrong and it is silly to blame the Government for these increases. The Minister referred to this in his opening speech. It is a well-known fact that the increase in the price of soya beans originated in America. The ban on the export of soya bean and other protein foodstuffs has accentuated price increases. I do not think Deputy Gibbons should have raised the matter in the way he did because he knows, as every Member of this House knows and every farmer, that the rise in prices is a worldwide trend. We recall the contents of the White Paper published prior to our accession to Europe: both referred to the increases which would take place in the price of foodstuffs on our accession to Europe. That was foretold and that, in fact, is what has happened. I was somewhat surprised that Deputy Gibbons should have dealt with the matter in the way he did. It did not do him justice.

The second criticism I have of his speech relates to the attack he made on the position of the Labour Party in relation to the common agricultural policy. I do not think it was justified. I am sure the motive behind it was political. It is beginning to look as if the main line of Fianna Fáil argument in future will be based on an effort to divide the Fine Gael and Labour Parties. I am sorry for any Fianna Fáil Deputy who follows on that line. Deputy Lalor is smiling. He is not very wise because I believe everyone accepts that this Coalition Government is the best Government this country has seen for a long long, time and, indeed, the lack of quality in the Opposition is so blatently obvious as to require no comment from me.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

I do not see many from the Fianna Fáil side coming in to keep the House going.

Let us get back to the Estimate now.

Let us get on to it, not back to it.

Apart from those two criticisms of Deputy Gibbons's speech I found it interesting if not spectacular.

On the Estimate itself I intend to speak on a few matters of which I have some knowledge. The first area I should like to discuss is that of livestock and beef. This is the most vital area and will be the most vital area of farming activity in the coming years. I have come to the view, slowly but surely, that there is need for a central marketing of beef. At the moment the factories do their own marketing—some very successfully, others, perhaps, not so successfully. CBF plays its role in advertising and doing research in relation to certain aspects of marketing. It has been my experience in this trade that when the European buyer wants a consignment of beef or of lamb the tendency is to contact one factory and get their prices, contact another and get their prices and so on across the country. He then makes another series of calls saying that such and such a factory will give it to him at 1p per 1b less or a half penny per lb less. There is a kind of Dutch auction. This is not good for the Irish factories and it is not good for the Irish beef producer. There is need for a central marketing of Irish beef. It can only be done under the EEC regulations by having a factory owned or producer owned marketing company as any State owned company is not admissible under the constitution of the EEC. Perhaps CBF can be adapted to play this role. It will have to be done on a voluntary basis and on a basis acceptable to all the meat factories. It is a problem that should be tackled and it is a problem of some urgency. I know there has been a good degree of resistance to the concept of central marketing within the trade but I think that resistance is weakening and there is a more favourable attitude emerging in the trade towards some form of voluntary central marketing.

Another matter which is of importance to the beef trade and which I know the Department is tackling is that of carcase classification. There always has been a good system of classification in England but there is need for a classification scheme here in Ireland. Tentative steps have been taken in that direction. There is no resistance to this by anybody in the trade because it is very desirable and should emerge without too much difficulty or too much work. I know that the Irish Fresh Meat Society is working hand and glove with the Department on this matter. The sooner it is done the better.

I read a report recently concerning the availability of containers for the export meat trade. There seems to be a bottleneck developing in this sector. There are a number of companies operating container services to England and to Europe, most of which are foreign owned. I do not think it is primarily a matter for the Minister but I would urge the Government to set up some kind of committee to look into the developing aspects of containerisation, especially containerisation which requires heavy investment—investment in refrigeration machinery and investment in a specialised type of vehicle. It would not be a costly committee or study group. I read a report of a study group on this but more work could be done in this field.

There are two disincentives which I would like to see disposed of in the matter of beef exports within the EEC. The first one relates to the compensatory payments on beef and livestock which we have to pay. This arose primarily because of the instability of the currencies within the Community and, indeed, the instability of currencies on a worldwide scale. The sooner we can get back to the situation where we do not have to pay these compensatory payments the better. There is also the levy on exports of beef and cattle within the Community due to the transitional period into which we entered when we joined the Community. In the current price structure these levies are unfair and unnecessary and I would ask the Minister to ask the Commission to look into this and possibly reduce the transition time to one year. We are playing our part in Europe and our exports are a contribution to meat supplies in Europe and, indeed, to the stability of food prices in Europe. We should get recognition for that. It is no help for the Community to be levying these on our exports. They are a hindrance and a cause of increased prices within the Community. I take exception to the levy which Irish meat factories have to pay on exports of beef especially to third countries. It has damaged our boneless beef trade to America and it is something we can well do without. I wonder how the problem arose initially. Was it a lack of foresight on the part of the Department or on the part of the negotiating team or is it part and parcel of the scheme as a whole? It is something we can well do without.

Another aspect which is, perhaps, more serious in the long term, is the degree to which imports of beef and of meat and, indeed, possibly livestock will be allowed from third countries into the Community. This is a far bigger question and a far more serious one for our country. The prime mover for the importation of meat into the EEC is England which still persists in its policy of trying to import cheap foodstuffs. We know of the Argentinian beef imports into England and the imports of New Zealand and Australian lamb.

I know some agreement has been arrived at in respect of imports. I do not know how long this agreement lasts or whether it terminates at the end of the transitional period. I do not know whether the British Government will be able to continue importing frozen beef and lamb for a period beyond the transitional period. We joined the Common Market in order to get the best benefits for our producers. If the British or any other European government force themselves into a position where they can negotiate further third country imports of meat into the Community, we should watch the position closely. We should guard against that happening and prevent it, if possible.

The policy of breeding in relation to our livestock is something that needs continuing review. Much has been done by the Department. It should be remembered that we pursue a breeding policy to satisfy the customers. We must breed animals suitable for milk production in the case of the dairying industry, and meat suitable to the customers in the case of the beef industry. The necessity for lean carcases is becoming apparent. European markets will no longer tolerate fat carcases. Even in Ireland people do not eat fat meat now. What was considered a well-finished carcase some time ago is no longer popular. Expertise in breeding is necessary now.

There has always been a conflict of interests in regard to the export of livestock and the export of meat. It has been said that cattle processed in the factories at home show more profit to the producers and give greater employment. Nobody will deny that. The livestock trade insist that it is necessary to have live exports and they want channels through which they can export.

It seems to me that the matter is resolving itself slowly. The processed meat industry is developing at a pace which I personally welcome. The experts in the EEC must also welcome this development. I do not say that livestock exports should be curtailed. A situation should not be allowed to develop where our herds would be in danger of being reduced because of exportation either by way of dead meat or of female heifers. These animals are essential for the expansion of our breeding stock. The livestock herd is expanding tremendously. We all welcome that.

We are moving now towards an international approach to our problems. It is no longer a matter of internal politics. We must now develop a policy in regard to all aspects of Irish agriculture. We must see that the Irish farmers benefit and that the policies adopted suit the economy and benefit our society as a whole.

On many occasions in this House I have protested about the sheep and lamb industry. There is no common agricultural policy for the marketing of sheep and lambs. We must fight against this. There must be a policy for such marketing as soon as possible. The French Government are not against such a policy, but for some reason such policy is not emerging. Perhaps the French Government have domestic, political reasons for this, such as the protection of their own farmers, but we must insist before the end of the transitional period on a common policy which will ensure continuous access to Europe for our sheep and lamb carcase trade.

France is by far our best customer. The French are especially interested in light carcases. This market is a very remunerative one. The Irish farmer knows about it and welcomes it. There is a good case for the central marketing of lamb carcases in particular. Problems arise. French importers may telephone various firms asking for prices of lamb carcases. Later they may ring back telling the producers that they can buy lamb at a little less. This type of deal is of little use to the industry. It forces the industry to cut-throat bargaining. This is not beneficial to the producers. A central marketing system for Irish lamb carcases is urgently required. The CBF could do such marketing if it were restructured, as it must be.

In regard to sheep breeding we should consider the Canterbury lamb. This lamb is produced in New Zealand. Its carcase varies from 28 lbs. to 32 lbs. in weight. It is a small, compact lamb, which is very popular in England. It would be very popular on the European markets. I would like to know whether we have ever experimented with this breed. I do not know whether there are veterinary reasons or climatic conditions here which make its production unsuitable. It would be interesting to experiment with this breed.

The mountain lamb scheme is of benefit to the sheep trade. There is a certain type of mountain lamb which does not kill well and is not very acceptable to the French. This breed is not very desirable. The Minister may be able to resolve the problem in regard to this breed. We have not increased our sheep population over the past few years. The sheep population has not re-established itself recently. It is a difficult type of animal to feed in the winter and it requires expertise to maintain it in the winter months and in the early spring months when it can be very profitable to market. A greater incentive is needed here; how it can be provided in the context of the common agricultural policy and our commitment to the European Treaty I am not sure but I think greater investment by the Government aimed at seeking an increase in the sheep population would be repaid very quickly and very substantially. Perhaps the Minister would refer to this when replying.

I see that we are now entering into a new phase of our pigmeat industry. Gone is the bacon agreement with England; Europe is now our market and it is a very diversified one which requires expertise in marketing and handling the goods in transit. I have been told that it is a very specialised market and one which requires diversification on the side of the bacon curers. The traditional carcase trade is there and will remain and, for certain types, carcase will be most profitable but there is a move towards diversification into controlled cuts or portions which can sell very profitably on the Continent. The Pigs and Bacon Commission have done a very good job, especially in the past few years, in trying to identify the potential European market. The European rather than the English market will become our main market in the years ahead. It is a market which I am delighted to say is, so to speak, under the control of the Pigs and Bacon Commission—voluntarily because the curers have agreed that the Commission should handle the marketing of bacon and pork. This is an example of the type of marketing to which I look forward and which will be most beneficial to the Irish economy.

These prices have affected the pig industry and there has been a certain dropping off in breeding stock. To a certain extent, that has been compensated by two influences, first in the prices structure itself—the selling price per pound of bacon and pork has risen substantially in the past few weeks. The figures for 1973 compared with 1972 show a good increase. The second influence is a move towards the larger units of production which was recommended in the White Paper on accession to the EEC and which has materialised. I heard Deputy Gibbons say that the least dangerous type of production was the small unit because, as he said, if you had virus pneumonia a large unit would suffer extensively. This is true but, nevertheless, economic factors are forcing, and will force larger units on us. I am optimistic for the future of the bacon and pork industry. Pork is a Cinderella commodity; emphasis has always been on the export of bacon. I believe there is a very good potential for the export of pork cuts and I urge the Pigs and Bacon Commission to give it more attention.

I do not know very much about the dairy industry but I am pleased to note that the increase in the last year in the price per gallon for milk was approximately 4½p. This is a substantial increase which reflects the price structure in the Common Market. As the Minister said, the gap between the Irish price level and the European price level is not so great, 1.4p. per gallon.

Perhaps the best advantage we derive in the dairy industry because of our entry into Europe is that prices are guaranteed and there can be no glut such as we saw in 1966, which is not so long ago. I remember farmers then giving away Friesian bull calves for nothing because there was a tremendous drop in the market. This cannot happen any more. We now have a new guaranteed market with intervention prices and the Government are bound to come in and buy any commodity such as beef or milk at a floor price. This is something which is very welcome and which farmers have sought for years. It has given them confidence in their own industry. When I visit farmer friends I feel a new spirit and atmosphere in the farmyard. There is greater confidence among the farming community. They are now investing, with positive strength, in mechanisation, in tractors and various mechanical devices which make farming more efficient. They do so because they see profit and a future in farming. This is something we in this House welcome. We have been striving to bring it about for many years and it is now being achieved, thanks to our entry into Europe.

Again, the value of the land project will, I think, be realised when the farmers appreciate that land they previously considered marginal would now be economic. It will be good to see marginal land back in production. Waste land in a country as potentially productive as Ireland—and Irish agricultural land is very productive and is internationally so recognised— should be brought into use. It is wrong to see any land which could be used for economic production lying idle and overgrown with weeds. There has been widespread recognition of this. There is no longer any need to refer to the input of fertiliser on Irish farms. Only two or three years ago we all referred with pride to James Dillon's scheme for liming the land.

No one need advise the farmer to fertilise his land. This is so natural that it is not spoken of. Fertilisation is automatically done at different times of the year, depending what the farmer wants out of the land. We have become professional farmers and this is as it should be. Farming is as much a business as any commercial industry. We should be proud of this. The agricultural community for too long were weathering storm after storm and market crisis after market crisis. It was all hopelessly difficult to predict. That is finished and we welcome it.

The structural changes to which the Minister referred to at length in his opening speech is a promise. The incentives offered for structural reform make farmers aware of their potential to expand, increase and use their resources more profitably. They can talk to agricultural advisers and work to a plan which they know will succeed. We must never underrate our potential. We have a very good climate, soil and a very expert farming community and, as has already been admitted, the best advisers in the business. The personnel in the Department are second to none. The advisory services available at local level are first-class. Farmers have the utmost confidence in them. I would not like to see any radical change in the present local advisory services structure. I know that this was in the air some time ago and the Minister referred to it in his speech, but the farmers have the highest regard for the present advisory structure. I urge him not to take away anything of importance from these services.

Nobody has referred to the quality of rural life. Life has become so fast moving, especially in urban areas, that we tend to forget that there is a tremendous quality in rural living. It is a very healthy life and potentially a very happy one. Successive Governments have not done enough to help the rural community to live to the full potential a life which is just as attractive as an urban life. Therefore I welcome the recent move— this may seem quite unrelated to the Agriculture Estimate—to broaden the available television services. I welcome it, whether it be a limited second channel or a rebeaming of the English stations all over the country. This will help towards improving the quality of life in rural areas. I place importance on this. A person living on a farm may be five, ten or fifteen miles from the nearest cinema, dancehall, town or city. We must identify the problem of living in a rural area —lack of entertainment and other facilities which would help towards making life in the country more pleasant.

At the moment the "in" thing is to go riding. This is as natural to the farming community as walking in the country. I have heard a number of comments from my fellow city-dwellers on the facilities which are available to those living in the country. We should help where we can to ensure that the quality of rural life is recognised and the problems identified and tackled. It is our duty to do this.

I should like to discuss the Faculty of Veterinary Medicine at University College Dublin. I am pleased to see the Minister for Education in the House. It is the stated interest of the staff of the Department of Veterinary Medicine at UCD that they would like to see established on the Belfield campus a proper Faculty of Veterinary Medicine. The Report of the Commission on Higher Education recommended the amalgamation of the Faculty of Veterinary Medicine in Trinity College with UCD, and a move into Trinity College. I would not welcome this. A Faculty of Veterinary Medicine needs to be independent and have space in which to carry out experiments and make examinations in a relatively natural setting. This cannot be done at Trinity College. I would urge the Minister for Education, through the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, to reconsider the recommendations of the Commission on Higher Education in this respect. Plans have been drawn up for the building of a Faculty of Veterinary Medicine on a site at Belfield. To amalgamate Trinity College and University College Dublin would be a retrograde step because the Trinity College Veterinary Faculty is not viable. Sometimes there are more staff than students. If two faculties must merge, let the building be erected on the more favourable site at Belfield.

I should like to praise the staff of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. As Deputy Gibbons said, our staff in Brussels is second to none. This is at it should be. We are an agriculture-orientated nation and always have been. Therefore, it would seem logical that the people who advise us would be second to none. That is as it should be.

The veterinary section of the Department, of which I have some personal knowledge, is an excellent section. The staff there are up to the standard of any other staff in this sphere. I should also like to pay a tribute to the men who work on the ground, the agricultural inspectors. Sometimes their job is a thankless one. For the next few months few of us would envy them their job. They have to go out in the rain and in storms. They are to be commended. They worked for years on the eradication of bovine TB. In passing, I wonder how successful has that scheme been. I understand that the incidence of bovine TB has risen in some counties. We must not allow this to happen on any serious scale. The brucellosis eradication scheme needs more serious attention perhaps. There will be a potentially dangerous problem if brucellosis is allowed to reach serious proportions again. The warble fly scheme needs attention year in and year out and we must ensure that the dressing of cattle is attended to.

I wish the Minister well in the task that lies ahead. It has already been stated that agricultural policy is not a matter for party politics. It is a matter of identifying the problems and ensuring that the best policies are pursued for our country and for our farming community, and they are one and the same. The Minister's task is onerous. It involves quite a lot of travel and meeting quite a lot of deputations. We are happy that he has the backing of a staff which is second to none. We should all be proud of the work he has done to date. I wish him well in the years that lie ahead.

I wish to compliment the Minister and to wish him success in his new role. He has to look after our agricultural affairs at home and in Europe. In the welter of politics, in the rough and tumble of electioneering, and in debate in this House, the Minister has always shown himself to be an objective observer, a critic when necessary, and not backward in praising the work of his opponent when he deems it necessary. Those of us who served with him in this House when he was in Opposition must say in all fairness that he has carried his portfolio very well. He has put our side of the general agricultural policy on the European level in a very forthright and efficient manner.

The staff of the Department down the country were complimented for their assistance when we were presenting the agricultural side of our case for entry into the EEC. It is gratifying to be able to record the services which were rendered to us on all sides of the House when we were engaged in the referendum on the question of entering Europe. That move had its critics and the critics had to be answered conclusively. We who were on the side of entry into Europe were provided with plenty of material not merely at the general level here in the Department but also at local level in the country. I remember having recourse to our own local office and I got the best of service and expertise there. If we consider our position in the agricultural context we can say that, so far as leadership and education are concerned, we are provided, to put it in current terms, with plenty of ammunition. If we do not use it, it is our own fault. We are provided with material for argument as to the best methods to be adopted to assist agricultural production in general.

I must also say a word in favour of the Agricultural Credit Corporation who provide the wherewithal to help to finance the farming drive. The Agricultural Credit Corporation have been very successful, not merely in raising funds for this purpose, but also in the distribution of funds and in making loans available to farmers. It is comforting to know that, even in times of stress like the present when the price of money is very high, the ACC are able to attract investment from the Community and able to distribute funds where they think they will be best calculated to promote agricultural production. I should also like to compliment this semi-State body—I suppose I can call them that —on their recent investment in a head office in Dublin. This move has had its critics but I suppose in this context any development in Dublin will attract a certain amount of criticism.

All of us from the rural areas would like to see more decentralisation. I assume—and I think there is evidence to back up this assumption —that it is not always easy to accomplish this. When we talk in terms of decentralisation of any service we must have regard to the fact that we are dealing with personnel in the shape of the people working in the service. We must always recognise that we cannot shift people around as one would shift draughts on the draught board. Subject to those remarks, I would urge on the Minister the necessity for decentralising as far as possible.

Those of us from rural areas should be conversant with the problems affecting the farming community. The fact that we have entered Europe makes it more incumbent on us to keep abreast of the trends there. We must bear in mind the fact that we have entered a Community and, as was said here, the course of events and the direction of agriculture in general will not always be within our control. We must be prepared for the ups and the downs in the system. We are aware that there will be obstacles, we know that what will suit one country will not necessarily suit another state. As the Minister pointed out in his speech, we can only do our best within this framework.

Last night I was looking up a journal on European affairs and I noted a few points. One noticeable feature was that it is not always the high income countries who are making the best progress on the agricultural side. While Italy, a highly-industrialised country, is making good progress and seems to be balancing production on the agricultural and non-agricultural sides, Germany which has a high income per head from non-agricultural production has a very low output in agriculture. According to a summary of a report issued recently, the indications are that for countries such as Ireland, Denmark, France and Holland things could be more difficult in the future. The Council of Ministers must take notice of this trend and I hope it is one with which we will be able to grapple.

As the Minister indicated, for the first time in our history we can work in the knowledge that we have a market in which to sell our products. Therefore, the onus is on us to deliver our goods on time and to meet our targets. We have got away from the slumps and the booms and I hope we will be able to take advantage of our new freedom. Although people may be critical of the Community—and they are entitled to their views—at least it is an honest attempt at communal effort. In the past we have not been good at this. We may as well recognise that fact, even though we have come a long way since then. The move towards amalgamation of creameries, the affiliation with An Bord Bainne, all these trends will help us to keep our costs within reasonable limits and to export our goods on time and at competitive prices.

In this respect we have many advantages. Even though we are small, with the right direction, with the proper amount of investment in agriculture and with a full and efficient use of manpower and aids, we will be able to make better progress than we have made in the past. The Minister referred to this matter and he told us we should gear ourselves to meeting whatever may lie ahead and not to start a grumbling and inward-looking campaign, blaming somebody because we have entered the Community. We were wise to have entered the Community. We must now be prepared to play our part in it to the full and to be leaders in thought.

The Minister fought hard in Europe on our behalf so that we might avail of all the advantages of membership. He may not have succeeded in gaining everything we would like, but he made a very good effort. Each one of us should do everything possible to promote the farming drive. We should promote better methods of producing and handling milk. Our climate is good for agriculture although this year may not have been a very good one in this regard. For instance, this year's hay crop is not likely to be as good as last year's but our root crops may be good. It is only by incentive that we can hope to have a basic tillage policy. For far too long this aspect of agriculture has been neglected. Perhaps we have been concentrating too much on cattle production because of the high prices cattle are fetching.

If we depend on the fluctuating market abroad for foodstuffs we must be prepared to compete with very high price levels, but let us not look for booms or slumps in foodstuff prices. I hope that such a situation will not arise. Regardless of which aspect of agriculture a farmer concentrates on, it is important that he have a basic tillage policy. We have enough good land to produce a fair amount of barley and a farmer producing barley can have it at a much more moderate price than if he purchased it on the market.

In a war situation people can always agree together on a basic tillage policy but even in normal circumstances we could have a modified policy. There are some farmers who would not find it possible to adopt such a policy but there are many who could do so. At least all farmers could have a quota of tillage in an effort to avoid the worst effects of rising prices of foodstuffs. This year was extraordinary in the sense that many commodities other than foodstuffs were in scarce supply. The older people might say that is a sign of war. I hope they will be proved wrong. However, it is strange that, despite increasing affluence in America, Europe and Asia, there is a basic scarcity of foodstuffs. This situation may continue for a couple of years although it is difficult at this stage for anyone to forecast what the future will hold. We should rely on our own resources for our foodstuffs. At least we are in the position of being able to produce a reasonable quantity of our food requirements. In this way we would be improving our balance of payments position.

Concomitant with our effort to increase our cattle and pig population we must increase our tillage. Pig production is the most sensitive aspect of our livestock industry. In the past the pig market has been subject to continuous fluctuations, but we are getting away from that situation now and are concentrating on the larger units of production. In this way it is hoped that we will get away from the situation of having thousands of pigs fewer in one year than in another. I suppose this situation arose from fear. This is an area, too, where a basic tillage policy would be very valuable in so far as the cost of feed could be reduced.

With the exception of Holland and Denmark I have never been able to get bacon in any other country that would in any way compare with our own, although the continentals are experts at handling bacon and presenting it at table. I have often wondered what these other peoples do with their grade A bacon because it does not seem as if they keep it for use at home. We should have the interest of the pig industry at heart in this direction and do what we can to promote it by the methods I have suggested.

While we have done well in the cattle trade which continues to improve, we could do a lot better. Our cow population has increased but not to the extent I would have liked. At one time the hope was expressed that our cow population would go beyond the two million mark and I believe that we should be able to reach this target within a short time.

Co-operative societies, who in the past concentrated their efforts on the butter business, can do a good deal in the way of leadership. We must all strive to spread the co-operative idea amongst the farming community because, as the old saying goes, unity is strength. A properly organised farming community would not have much difficulty in borrowing money to increase production. Some years ago I gave that advice to a group of farmers in my area who were contemplating setting up a small separating station. They accepted my advice and have now a flourishing business.

We will make progress if the amalgamation of co-operative societies and creameries takes place and if these groups work together to keep costs down.

Our butter, bacon and beef is palatable, but we should not be satisfied and should endeavour to make it even more palatable. Some years ago when a drive was made to market our butter abroad we had critics who said that more money would be spent on the marketing operation than it would be worth in the long run. Had we listened to those people we would still be looking up the chimney without any confidence in ourselves as butter producers.

The scheme implemented to improve the butter sales and make butter more attractive to the housewife abroad was very successful. There is no reason why we should not be able to enlarge the bridgehead established in those selling areas and get our butter on the tables of households in other countries as well as on those of our next door neighbour. If we listened to those who cry failure at every turn of the road we would never try any scheme.

The farm incentive bonus scheme is one of the best schemes in this country because it reaches out to the farmer who is in the weakest position. It puts the onus on him to provide leadership on his farm, and at the same time guarantees him a bonus for doing so. In this regard we have a bad pattern in that the farms are very uneven in size. This matter was dealt with in great detail in the Macra na Feirme report, a report which was presented to the Department of Lands but which, in my view, should have been given to the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. It is doubtful if we will be able to do enough to speed up the succession problem. There is no need for me to talk about the roots of this problem. It is something that has had a bad history, due mainly to the disturbances of the last century and the early part of this century in relation to land in general. There is a reluctance and a fear by the farmer to part with his land and there is also the question of status. I believe that we could do a lot of good in this regard by "visual aid" and forgetting about all the paper work. We have had enough paper work about this matter over the years. In a large parish a number of farmers should be encouraged to surrender their land, even in a phased way, to younger men. In this way we would make progress and have more populated rural areas.

It is my hope that the farmer in the future will be on a comparable basis with his counterpart in industrial employment. I hope he will be able to earn as much, if not more, than is earned in the cities. Many excellent reports have been prepared and issued in relation to this matter but when they are read they are shelved. A great deal of research has been involved in the compilaton of the Macra na Feirme report which deals with the many snags we are likely to encounter in this regard. The politics of succession will be a problem. We will have many critics, but I hope we can fight them off and be able to show what can be achieved. I welcome the initiative of this young organisation who are deserving of great praise. The scheme such as that outlined by this organisation should form the basis of our drive for the future in agriculture. If it does not, then we are not facing up to the future or to our competitors in Europe. When the system suggested is researched elsewhere, there may be parts added to it, and there will be those who will be able to find fault with it. However, we should try to implement parts of it, as soon as practicable, even in a pilot way. If that were done, it would be worth all the paper in the Clondalkin Paper Mills.

It is beginning to be realised both in the primary and secondary schools that visual aids are a wonderful help to children. Visual aids are also a wonderful help to farmers. Farmers take part in many social or semi-social activities, and it is a semi-social day now to take part in a farming walk, whether one goes to Grange or to a neighbour's farm to see the methods of husbandry he brings to livestock production. One sees new and less costly methods adopted.

If we could establish a satisfactory pattern of succession based on a scheme such as that on which those visual aids are based, I think we would be able not merely to overcome the reluctance of the old to pass on the holding to the young but also to kill this status idea. If we offered the proper incentive to a farmer to retire, if we offered him a maisonette or something like that so that he and his wife could live under the one roof or adjacent to the younger farmer, we would get in a very short time increased and more efficient agricultural output. The younger farmer would have a greater incentive to work his holding. Farmers have always responded to incentives. We can find fault with them, as I have done myself —I have often argued with them about co-operation and so on—but, by and large, if the monetary incentive is there the farmer will go out and work and be able to market his goods competitively.

Although I have spoken about co-operation, I am not satisfied that group farming will be the success we would hope it would be. It does not seem to me as if it will spread generally, which is regrettable because it would bring many advantages to the farmer and to his wife and family. To begin with, I would be more inclined to enlarge upon the farm incentive scheme and to push the scheme of succession at all costs. It would be worth substantial cost to get that going, and I think it can be done if it is seriously attempted.

On the question of animal health, Deputy Collins said there might be a re-emergence of tuberculosis. I doubt that this would be so. It is recognised both here and abroad that we did a very good job on the eradication of TB, but it is a disease with remission and can always reoccur. That does not mean we cannot keep it within bounds; I think we can. A much more difficult problem is brucellosis. We shall have to work overtime in order to eradicate it from the national herd. The staff now engaged on this are working very hard on it. Sometimes they do not get the co-operation they should get, and it is time we got it into our heads that it is incumbent on every member of the farming community to subscribe in every way to the eradication of brucellosis. For far too long some of us in the community have had the idea that we could get away with non-participation. For instance, when we began to clear the cattle population of warble infestation, there were those who refused to co-operate. The hide of the beast is as important as any other part of it, and we should all impress on the farming community the necessity for every farmer to play his part in the various schemes to eradicate disease from our national herd.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 8th November, 1973.
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