Last night I was dealing with the advisory service and I should now like to mention some aspects of this very important service. Since the enactment of the Agriculture and Technical Instruction (Ireland) Act, 1899, and the Agricultural Act of 1931 and the amending Act of 1958 we have had an advisory service which has developed over the years and which has very definitely made its mark on the progress of Irish agriculture in the 27 administrative areas in which county committees of agriculture function. Seeing that agriculture has been modernised to a great extent and has improved beyond expectation, if we look back, say, ten years, I think the time is now opportune, when we are——
Committee on Finance. - Vote 37: Agriculture (Resumed).
Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £55,892,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1974, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain subsidies and sundry grants-in-aid.
—(Minister for Agriculture.)
On a point of order, I should like to refer to the fact that neither the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries nor his Parliamentary Secretary is in the House.
That is not a point of order.
There is collective responsibility in this Government.
Deputy MacDonald to resume.
Is Deputy Ryan, who is signing his letters, acting as Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries at the moment?
The Deputy should not interrupt in such a manner.
If we had a House, one of them might come in.
That is in order. A quorum has been called for.
Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present.
It is most unusual for a Deputy who calls for a quorum to leave the House immediately, as Deputy O'Malley did on this occasion. He called for a quorum and there is only one Member of the Fianna Fáil Party present.
I am interested only in points of order. Deputy McDonald to resume.
I was about to say something on the advisory service and the tremendous role this body of men and women have played in the development of Irish agriculture over many years. Seeing that agriculture now faces considerable change and competition in Europe in the enlarged Community, I think the time has come when we must look closely at this organisation. Perhaps it should be re-appraised, not that the work it is doing is wanting in any way, but there seems to be some discontent among younger members of the service. This is not surprising when one finds there are over 600 advisers and only 27 CAOs and little more than 30 deputy CAOs, so that opportunities for promotion are very limited. I believe we need new promotional opportunities in this service but, apart from that, our agriculture would greatly benefit by the introduction, as part of a new and enhanced agricultural advisory service, of a new specialist type of adviser. For this we would need to have somebody who would be doing applied research in the institute or somebody with a higher or master's degree.
The Department should seriously consider employing agricultural engineers because, especially in pig buildings, a large amount of capital investment is involved. In regard to the provision of modern farm accommodation agricultural architects would be required or, as least, engineers with a sound agricultural basis in their degree. Therefore, I should like to see the service expanded to include the expertise of persons in these professions.
Those of us who have served on county committees of agriculture find that it is very difficult to get the best results from the advisory service when they have not got the best building advice. Farmers are committing themselves to capital investment in the region of £20,000 to £100,000. There are not in the service persons with the necessary skill to design farm buildings or to assess the functional value of designs used successfully in other countries in the Community such as the United Kingdom, Denmark and Holland. The Agricultural Institute, and Mr. Tuite in particular, have contributed valuable work in this field but Mr. Tuite is very much alone. The University of Aberdeen has conducted extensive experiments in this connection. It should be possible to have this expert advice available to the farmer. If we are to continue to progress and if we are to produce the protein foods of which there is a world shortage, we must equip our farmers. We need a specialist advisory service, specialist advisers in all the main lines of production—beet, milk, cereal, pig and poultry production.
I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will agree with me when I say that I do not accept that the future in any one of these lines of production is bleak for the Irish producer. Even in poultry production where we have to take into account the competition from the very large and well developed units abroad, I do not think that will present a big challenge to the Irish industry. For the discerning consumer there will be an element of cost here. On the Continent one is presented with the very small, unappetising, tasteless chicken, covered attractively in all kinds of sauces and described on the menu in peculiar verbiage. There must be a future for the chicken produced in Ireland, which is not very expensive as compared with beef or mutton.
My European colleagues, who are coming to this country more often than before, are very impressed by the excellent flavour of Irish meats. All we need is to have the confidence in the industry, to plan ahead and to ensure that we will be able to continue these lines of production.
There is the difficulty of the high cost of protein meals for poultry and for pigs. Even though the Department have not got responsibility for the steep rises in the cost of feedingstuffs that have occurred on a number of occasions this year, I should like to tell the Parliamentary Secretary that I have yet to be convinced that the steep increases that occurred in feedingstuffs last February were warranted. The 1972 harvest price for cereals, feeding barley, was not as high as to warrant the increase in price. I have not got figures but I have heard rumours to the effect that in the last year the compounders made an extra £2 million profit. That, certainly, is possible. There is no smoke without fire. It cannot be suggested that the Irish harvest is fully used up between October and February. Our stocks should last for a much longer period of the year. I think the compounders this year pulled a fast one on the industry. I do not know how they succeeded in pulling the wool over the eyes of the Prices Commission. Looking at world prices, the price of soya bean has reduced considerably and has almost reverted to the price obtaining up to last year or early this year. I now confidently look forward to a considerable reduction in the price of feedingstuffs.
The time has come when there should be closer co-operation and closer liaison between the advisory section of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and the advisers employed by the county committees of agriculture who at present work very well together. We would also need to have more co-operation and more liaison between the agricultural faculties of the universities and the Agricultural Institute. There should be at least co-ordination of effort in all these State agencies which were set up and financed to aid, guide and direct the agricultural advisory service.
We should endeavour to organise a rural development authority based on the existing statutory county committees of agriculture. By and large these county committees of agriculture have been eminently successful in carrying out the task and the programme which they were set up to carry out. We should now build on this sound base at county level to improve the quality of services for the common community. Everybody knows and accepts that if a farmer, whether or not he is viable, wants to secure a loan from any of the banking houses, or the ACC, or the World Bank, the first requirement is that he should be able to submit a five-year plan for the agricultural product he wishes to produce. This is a very good thing to do, but he must have an agricultural adviser.
It is not enough to have the agricultural adviser on a nodding acquaintance with the county or regional officers of the ACC or with the Irish representative of the World Bank. There must be greater co-ordination so that the assessment can be made of a man's ability to utilise to the best possible advantage loans which may be advanced to him for any line in the agricultural sphere. The land reclamation service should also play a greater role. A lot of uncertainty has been allowed to arise regarding the future of this service. If my memory serves me correctly, the Minister mentioned this in his opening speech. There is a commitment that all the applications in for land reclamation will be cleared and, after that, grants will more than likely be confined to improving lands which are calculated to make a farm a viable holding. As I see it, that is the appropriate EEC regulation.
For far too long all these State agencies have worked on their own. We must have co-operation amongst the people in the various sectors. It will take a while to get closer liaison and co-operation and it would be helpful if we could even house them in one building at county level where they could deal with bovine TB, blue cards, brucellosis and land drainage or reclamation. Perhaps it is a matter for the Minister for Finance and the Office of Public Works to consider providing better accommodation and housing all these officers under one roof.
If we are to keep pace with what will be demanded of us as a food-producing country, it is very important that our farmers should be equipped with the best possible advice. Over the years the agricultural adviser has not been looked on as just another civil servant or a bureaucrat. He has been looked upon by the farmers as their mentor and financial controller or adviser. He has been called upon to perform many more services than people in other employment are aware of. It is difficult for a man to earn a living in the farming profession because there are so many unknown quantities in control of his income. He has to contend with variable weather conditions.
From a price structure point of view, the weather in America, or a bad harvest in Russia, or even the disaster in Ethiopia can have a very definite effect on the income of a farmer in Ireland. People may think that sounds a little daft but, because the Russians have suffered two or three bad harvests and the Chinese and the Russians have bought up practically all the proteins available in the past year and a half or two years, in the western world these commodities are in short supply. Therefore we must pay double what we should be paying for soya beans.
Our agricultural advisers have to endeavour to steer the Irish farmer. At least 75 per cent of our farmers seek advice and aid from the advisory services. They have worked extremely well in the interests of Irish agriculture. It is comforting for the farmer to be able to get a second opinion. The adviser has a difficult job and he has been underrated because he has to be able to advise on drainage and to keep the farmer up-to-date with fluctuations in prices at home and fluctuations in world prices and world markets. The starting salary for this grade could be looked at.
There is a high proportion of temporary personnel in the service. This is unnecessary and it could be combatted to a considerable extent if we had one employing agency or service for the entire country. By that I do not mean that one agency should pay these people's salaries but there should be one employing agency, the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries or some new service which could be set up. A county committee would then requisition an appropriate number of advisers and they would be transferred into the county. It would then be more difficult for them to transfer out of permanent employment in that county. I come from a county in the centre of the country. We were neither fish nor flesh because all the advisers wanted to go to a university town on the east coast, or to get back near their homes on the west coast. Consequently we had a very high number of these people passing through.
I do not want anyone to think that I would curtail the freedom of professional people to work where they wished. However, these people are employed to service an industry and they can work to maximum advantage only when they have a personal knowledge and assessment of the farmers. If a farmer has two new advisers every year there is no continuity because the advisers cannot be expected to know the capabilities of the farmers. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to impress on his Department the need to bring stability into the service, perhaps, by re-organisation. Where there are 500 or 600 people employed, it should be possible for them to have an opportunity of applying for posts with the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries or, if they have the honours qualifications, with the Agricultural Institute. It is wrong that these services work apart as has been done in the past.
Before the Agricultural Institute was established, the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries invited some of the more progressive advisers on the county committees of agriculture to participate in educational tours of some of the European countries and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to reintroduce this scheme. It is important that Irish farmers know how efficient or otherwise are the European farmers and the only way this can be done is to visit the European countries. There are areas where we can teach the European farmers and there are many things of which we can be proud.
Our dairy farmers during the years have successfully competed with the Danes in marketing milk products in the United Kingdom. We were able to put milk products on that market when we were receiving as much as 7p per gallon less than the Danes. This was done mainly because of the efficiency of the Irish producers. We have rationalisation programmes; the industry is becoming more efficient and our farmers will be able to continue with this line of production.
I should like to avail of this opportunity to compliment Bord Bainne, Mr. McGough and his team on the new board. I am sorry I cannot remember the new title of the organisation but of all the milk boards in the nine countries the Irish organisation are way ahead of their competitors in selling milk products throughout the world and at prices that are the envy of every milk-selling organisation in Europe. It is right that we pay this tribute to the people concerned; they have tremendous expertise and have been finding lucrative markets for our products.
In the last few months there has been sharp criticism of the European Commission for their famous sale of 200,000 tons of butter to the Russian market. While it is not my business or duty and while I do not desire to defend the Commission, the price the Commission received for that sale was a little better than the price we obtained in the not too distant past. In addition, the Commission have stated it would cost them more to store the butter than what they received for the sale. Therefore, when Bord Bainne are successful we should recognise this and wish them continued success.
The dairy farmers have done a good job; they have now a long-term guaranteed market for milk and milk products and their future is assured. Even if Commissioner Lardinois introduces a levy as he proposes and if it becomes law, even with the payment of this levy milk production will still be a very profitable and worthwhile pursuit. It will give good employment both on and off the farm and it will guarantee our farmers a top price.
It is time the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society were strengthened or else abolished. The IAOS have been handicapped by lack of powers and lack of finance. The people employed in the organisation have considerable expertise and I have always been impressed by them. However, the organisation lacks power to see their schemes brought to fruition.
People frequently talk about co-operation in agriculture. Since the time of Horace Plunket people have spoken about it but have left it at that. Many of the commercial co-operatives have taken a wrong line in that they prefer to go into the ultra-profitable areas and try to get profits when they are only competing with private enterprise in many of our provincial towns. I think this is wrong. If the co-operative societies want to play the full role that was envisaged for them by the founders of the co-operative movement, then I think they should endeavour to propagate co-operative projects instead of specialising in the retail trade. This is adequately catered for already. Perhaps, it is necessary for them to work in the most lucrative spheres in which they get a good return but, if we are to preserve the quality of Irish life, we must have prosperous towns and villages as well as a prosperous countryside.
Co-operative societies should take a new look at the position. It might be no harm to introduce a co-operative system where milking is concerned so that the farmer and his wife would not have to work a seven-day week milking the cows right through the summer months. I do not know if any experiments have been carried out on these lines, but I do know that the young people growing up today will not take up an occupation which requires their attendance seven days a week. Perhaps, the biological chemists might come up with something which would obviate the necessity of Sunday milking. Through co-operation it might be possible to work a shorter week on a rotation system. Our co-operatives are too concerned with rationalisation and building up one or two super outfits.
We have the biggest single dairy processing unit in the EEC. We also have the biggest single cattle market. I think it is the one in Enniscorthy. According to statistics, the Avonmore plant has the biggest capacity of any of the Nine. We have a great opportunity for ensuring the future of our dairy products. The tendency in the more industrialised countries is to get away from milk production because it is a seven-day a week job. The forecast is that milk production in Britain will decline. I believe that in the very near future our farmers will be called upon to supply liquid milk for distribution and sale other than in the home country.
Aer Lingus provide a very nice little carton of cream or milk while on Continental planes one is given nauseating powdered milk which does nothing for a cup of tea or coffee. As Europeans learn the difference, we will be called upon to become the No. 1 dairy in Europe. The EEC tours for our advisers should be reintroduced and groups of farmers should be sent to Europe. There are many spheres in agriculture in which we are ahead of our European counterparts. It is rather sad to see some farming conditions on the Continent. I have seen women bringing in the harvest and the hay on their backs. I never saw that here at home. I have seen women picking potatoes. This goes to show that Europe is not really that advanced. There are farmers there poorer than some of our farmers here and that is saying a lot. The area being so vast I suppose they can afford to have extremes.
Our farmers are not the worst farmers in Europe. Remember, these people have enjoyed tremendous aids for the past eight or ten years and, in those eight or ten years, we have increased our agricultural income and brought our agricultural production and expertise to a very high level without any of the aids our European counterparts enjoyed. We had to sell our products on a deliberately depressed market in Britain because we had to compete with subsidised British farmers.
I have the utmost confidence in Irish agriculture. I hope the Department will continue to give leadership and ensure that our farmers stay ahead. One of the biggest contributions we could make to Irish agriculture would be the supply of adequate capital at a low interest rate. I am sorry the Minister for Finance has left the House because I am disappointed that the ACC have not been given a free hand to borrow at the cheapest possible rate outside the country in order to make capital available for Irish farmers. I am both alarmed and saddened that this has not been permitted.
In an industry such as Irish agriculture which is just getting out of the doldrums every percentage point of interest is important. We should encourage the directors of the ACC to finance their lending schemes from the cheapest possible source. I would ask the Department of Finance and the Central Bank to have a rethink on this. It could greatly enhance the viability of Irish agriculture.
To go back to the IAOS again, I find it difficult to understand how in a normal season there can be a difference of as much as 2p a gallon in the price which different creamery groups pay for milk. The Department should look into this and try to ensure that there will be one national price for milk. The IAOS or some body should be charged with the responsibility of seeing that it would not be possible for creameries to just think of a price or to reduce it from month to month as they think fit. The Minister should introduce new legislation which would give us an opportunity of looking at the workings of the IAOS, of giving them, perhaps, greater powers to ensure that the Irish co-operative movement would really get off the ground and would ensure that their recommendations would have a better chance of success. They have excellent personnel and we cannot afford any more to have in our country organisations set up and giving expert advice and then allowing all that advice to be completely ignored. We should have the IAOS revamped and give them the task of introducing into the co-operative system new ideas and new schemes which will give our farming community a better chance of competing in the years ahead.
Last night I mentioned that Bord na Móna had many thousands of acres of cutaway bog which I am told is worth a minimum of £400 an acre as essentially viable agricultural land. This has been proved by the Agricultural Institute which over the last few years have got yields and results up to 1¾ bullocks per acre on cutaway bog. Are we to have State farms here on a par with the great Russian expanses of countryside? I certainly hope not. We must have forward planning in this field. It is very sad to think that Bord na Móna are completely devoid of the human touch and have no social conscience, good, bad or indifferent, when it comes to dealing with the ordinary small farmer. When I had occasion to contact them earlier this year, I regret to record that it was difficult to speak to anybody at the top. This is not as it should be. If a Deputy wants to help a constituent and considers the problem of sufficient importance for him to use his time, which is reasonably scarce, on it, then those people should come down off their high horses and be prepared to listen. What I object to is that this semi-State organisation, in the name of the taxpayers and the people of Ireland, should have power which was vested in them in the early 40's to compulsorily acquire bogland and to offer prices as low as £20 or £30 an acre.
And even less.
And even less, in the sure knowledge that when they are finished and have taken the turf and sold it at a profit the land they have left is then worth £400 an acre. This is morally wrong and those people do our small farmers a grave injustice. We must have forward planning. I would call for the establishment of a land usage authority or something like that to ensure that this land will revert to the people from whom it was robbed. They offer in some cases little more that what a farmer would get for the shooting rights for this land. Not only are they making offers but they are compulsorily acquiring land and threatening court orders on simple people down the country. This is going far beyond the spirit of the powers that were vested in that semi-State organisation 20 or 30 years ago.
The Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries is paid and his Department are paid to look after agriculture and to protect the farmers. He must have responsibility in this regard to see that Irish farmland is properly used and used to the best national advantage. If this organisation wants the turf, whether it is for the production of power, for the ESB or for whatever purpose, they should be able to lease the land and take the turbary off it but then it should revert to the original farmer so that his holding will be made a viable one.
The Agricultural Institute, which has done wonderful work in the short time since they have been established, have proved the very high agricultural potential of this type of land. The Department of Agriculture and Fisheries must be charged with the responsibility of knowing what we are going to do with this land. They must be charged with drawing up comprehensive plans for the future usage of the many hundreds of thousands of acres of bogland. It is not good enough to leave it there indefinitely. There are many thousands of acres of such land lying idle in Kildare. We have an example from the Dutch of what can be done. They reclaimed the area that is known as the Zuider Zee. I travelled that area recently and noticed many young progressive farmers working on that land. There is an intensive drainage network in the area. There they use drains in place of hedges with little bridges spanning from one plot to another. The cattle that graze there must be very fat because they make no attempt to jump off the land.
We have an opportunity of providing viable holdings for young progressive farmers from the type of land I am speaking of. The farm apprenticeship scheme has been reasonably successful but has been hampered to some extent by reason of the fact that when these young farmers are trained with master farmers and are brought to the stage of having a technical knowledge of husbandry, there are no farms on which to place them. The Department and the Land Commission might get together for the purpose of marking out holdings on bogland that has a viable agricultural potential. This has been done successfully at Lullymore in Kildare. We should begin planning the creation of new holdings all across that area and also in any other place where Bord na Móna have ceased operations. This is a means of putting this land into production. It is a development which must begin without much further delay; otherwise we may find ourselves in a situation in which the EEC Commission might not allow us bring any more land into agricultural production. That is why I am anxious also that Bord na Móna should not acquire fully land from any more small farmers. But they should be empowered to lease that land for whatever number of years they require it after which it would revert, suitably re-seeded, to the original owner. This would prevent difficulty of having to circumvent the EEC regulation which stipulates that no further land be brought into agricultural production except where it is calculated to create new viable holdings or to create a viable holding from an existing uneconomic one.
A similar situation exists in relation to our mountain land. Here, again, the administration has been remiss and the Department, under successive Ministers, must have known that there are hill farming proposals before the EEC Commission but no adequate steps were taken that would enable us to assess the potential of farming some of the difficult slopes in this country. In Rosenallis in Laois there is a consortium of 14 farmers who have grown crops successfully at an altitude of more than 1,000 feet. Therefore, there is no reason why the additional 50,000 acres on Slieve Bloom should not be brought into profitable cultivation also in the interest of the national economy. There is sufficient land there under scrub which, if developed, would render viable every holding in that region.
We must ensure that as many people as possible who are at present ekeing out an existence on small holdings should have adequate land. It would be far better to spend the maximum amount of money in developing the type of land of which I am speaking rather than to have to subsidise smallholders indefinitely. The vast majority of farmers would prefer to have the opportunity of acquiring sufficient land to render their holdings viable so as to ensure a good living for themselves and their families without the necessity of having to rely on the Department of Social Welfare to bring up their incomes.
Very little has been said during this debate in regard to tillage farmers. There is a good future for the tillage farmer provided that a greater effort is made to contain the costs of inputs and raw materials. In this regard I have been alarmed to hear recently that the fertiliser industry are seeking a 30 per cent increase in the cost of their products for this winter and spring. This takes some beating because if my information is correct and if I have been observing properly these firms, they already have supplies on hand for this winter and the coming spring. Therefore, there is no need at the moment for an increase in their prices and there will be no such need until next June when the new supplies come in and then only if, as they claim, the raw materials have increased in price.
Because of the generosity of another Minister, the fertiliser compounders made £2 million extra this year. That is bad enough but there is no reason why every person engaged in the supply of imputs to the agricultural industry should be allowed to jump on the bandwagon also. At present the fertiliser manufactures are withholding supplies, at least from the smaller merchants, in the hope that the price will be increased, because they have already their supplies in for this autumn and winter. Therefore, they cannot justly claim to be affected by any increase in raw materials. The stocks on hand are sufficient to meet the requirements of the farmers of this country up until the middle of next year. The Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries should take a note of this exorbitant demand for an increase in prices.
I understood that one of the points of the 14-point plan of the Coalition was to control prices immediately.
We are taking steps to control everything, even the Fianna Fáil Party.
What about the 70 items that went up yesterday?
We are dealing with agriculture.
I appreciate the fact that the Deputy opposite is strengthening my case.
The Deputy ought to go over to the Minister for Industry and Commerce.
This will be a very important factor in the coming spring. It will also decide whether the amount of tillage remains at the same level. I believe there is a good future for grain producers in this country especially those involved in the growing of barley and sugar beet. On the question of sugar I should like to ask the Minister to look at this industry critically. It is an industry that gives a considerable amount of employment at factory level and on the land.
One section of Comhlucht Siúcra Éireann which is deserving of compliments is the engineering workshop. This workshop has been successful over the years in producing top class beet harvesting machines. It is nice to see these machines in operation on the Continent. The expertise and the designs of those working in this workshop have drawn great praise from the sugar producers in other countries.
We must have a good sugar industry in this country if we are to continue sowing cereals. If we are to continue to grow barley, oats or wheat we must have a system of crop rotation. Such a system goes hand-in-hand with good crop husbandry. The only way we can have a good sugar industry is to ensure that our farmers get the maximum price possible for their produce. This year it was very costly to slow an acre of beet, between £70 and £100. This crop is expensive to grow and is reasonably susceptible to weather conditions.
There has been quite a lot of talk about the quota and how much we should produce. In this regard I should like to compliment our Ministers for Agriculture and Fisheries and Foreign Affairs on the work done at the last meeting of the Council of Ministers. At that meeting the Commission had proposals to get us to buy a greater quantity of sugar from the Carribean, and in that way to help the Third World and the underdeveloped areas. I do not know if my information is correct, I have not heard this from the Ministers concerned, but it was information I picked up while hovering around the community offices in Brussels. Our Minister for Foreign Affairs at his Council meeting scuttled in a very forceable way this proposal.
In supporting this move by the Minister for Foreign Affairs I should like to state that our obligation in this country is firstly to support our own farmers, the workers in the beet factories and all those engaged in the beet and sugar industry. We are in the European Community and the future of the people within the Community should come before the future of those of the Third World. While it is desirable that we should help the people in underdeveloped countries, and those in the Carribean, we should also constantly bear in mind the problems of our own farmers. The people in the Carribean have the kiss of the sun every day while the unfortunate Irish farmer must frizzle while he is trying to harvest his crop.
The beet grower has my sympathy. It is not long since I left the beet field and I have not pleasant memories of the hard work associated with the production of beet. Our Ministers must remain vigilant to ensure that the interests of the Irish people engaged in the production of sugar of beet comes before the interests of people from foreign countries.
I should like to couple with my complimentary remarks to the engineering workshop of Comhlucht Siúcra Éireann, a group of people who pioneered and designed some excellent machines, those involved in the machinery testing station run by the Agricultural Institute. These people are deserving of great praise for the service they are rendering to Irish farmers and agriculture by testing and reporting on the wide variety and range of machinery they examine in the interest of the Irish farmer. It is important that we should recognise this service and express the hope that these people will continue in their work.
This is the first agricultural Estimate that has been introduced since we joined the EEC and it is no harm to recall that by virtue of our membership of the EEC the Irish taxpayer will save for this year something over £27 million. This is a significant figure. People are confusing the constant rise in prices with the EEC and our membership of the Community is blamed for a lot of things. What people consistently are refusing to recognise is what is on the credit side. From an agricultural point of view, despite the increases, we are aiming over the next four years to have economic and monetary union within the Community. In that transitional period there will be significant price changes.
We have to readjust ourselves to accept this fact. I am confident that, even though we may have a general upward trend, wages will catch up. People should perhaps be more tolerant and recognise that we are in a transitional period and that, unfortunately, we have also been caught up in a difficult period in international trade. Many countries which enjoyed better balances of payment than ours over the years have also been involved, as we have been. Not the least of these troubles is the Middle East crisis with oil prices increased considerably and the supply reduced. Quite a wide range of products are based on oil or the price of oil has a significant bearing on them. A good point Irish farmers can note is that the rebate on agricultural diesel will remain in operation indefinitely so that agriculture will continue to have the benefit of that rebate and this will help in the more economic production of farm crops.
Production of pigs is still beset by cycles of rising prices and falling prices. Bacon curers and the consortium controlling this market have been getting away with a bit much in the past year or so. One notes that when the price of bacon on the London market was reduced, pig prices took a similar reduction almost immediately, but now that the price has recovered we do not see a comparable increase in the price paid per cwt. for bacon. Has the Minister any power to investigate why one factory —one can see the prices advertised each week in the newspapers by bacon factories—can afford to pay perhaps £1 per cwt more for pigs of all grades than the factory a few miles away.
This is, perhaps, the last remaining branch of agriculture that is unsatisfactory. I do not think the management in the bacon factories, whether companies or co-operatives, are treating the farmers fairly. It is utterly disgusting to find that these factories are able to pay pounds more for pigs at marts than they can pay farmers who deliver pigs direct to the factories. This is a sad reflection on the integrity of the management of many bacon factories. It seems they prefer to pay more in the open market and also undertake the transport of pigs from mart to factory.
It is time that pig producers got a fair deal. In the last nine months they also had to face the drastic and, to some extent, unnecessarily high increase in the cost of pig meal coupled with the difficulty of using a meal with lower protein content which slowed production and was difficult to handle. In the past summer some compounders seemed to have produced something not much better than sawdust and it gave a good deal of trouble to people in what might be described as this delicate industry. It is time the Department interested itself in the pig industry. I do not know what powers the Minister may have but it is time somebody took powers to ensure that the price of pigs is seen to be in some way related to the price factories are getting for the bacon.
What advance has been made in the rationalisation of this industry? I think very little progress has been made. There must be a market for the by-products of the bacon industry. All across Europe, at every meal, Europeans seems to use pates and dishes derived from by-products of pigs and cattle. Many of our efficient factories— as they like to describe themselves— are, I think, allowing many of those by-products to go down the drain or are disposing of them for meat and bone meal. These factories should process the maximum percentage of each carcase so as to be able to give a better return to the producer. We have here an industry with tremendous possibilities and it is our duty to ensure that an industry traditionally associated with small farmers should be allowed to continue and to prosper.
There is still room for relatively small units. Some people think that if you want to be in pig production nowadays you must have hundreds or 500 or even several thousand pigs. I do not agree; I think that in the EEC any line will be profitable as long as it ensures that the manpower on the farm is fully utilised. If a farmer on a small holding has time to look after 20, 40, 50 or even 100 pigs without incurring extra labour costs, it will be possible for him to make a profit. I think many experts are frightening the ordinary small farmer out of these lines of production, without thinking. The future success of the Irish farmer will lie in ensuring that the manpower and the land force on his farm are fully and economically utilised throughout the week. If he has a modern house which requires the least amount of labour, even with 40 or 50 pigs he should be able to secure, perhaps, a higher than average profit. This is the sort of line that we should endeavour to encourage.
It would be disastrous to have the total pig production in the hands of one or two houses. With intensive rearing of pigs and poultry there is the danger of pollution. I should like to compliment the Minister on introducing a scheme of grants to encourage the use of slurry spreaders and slurry disposal units so as to prevent further pollution of rivers and lakes. Our environment will be of increasing benefit to the national economy. Our environment must be unique in Europe. Almost all of our rivers contain clear water whereas in most parts of the Continent one sees flowing under the bridges huge amounts of waste, suds and discoloured water devoid of life forms.
I should like to ask the Minister what steps he proposes taking to ensure that the pig industry will continue and that those who have invested capital in pig production will be given a fair return. I see no reason why the Pigs and Bacon Commission could not have been as successful as Bord Bainne or the CBF have been in selling their product. Although the tonnage of bacon consumed in the country is not as large as the tonnage of other meats, bacon is consumed extensively.
The national soil survey is progressing reasonably satisfactorily but the work, if not already completed, should be expedited. This work should be tied in with a land use policy. In this respect also there must be co-operation between the Department of Lands and the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. It is no longer fitting that the Forestry Division of the Department of Lands should be allowed to plant trees on land that is suitable for agricultural production. There is not sufficient land available to create economic holdings for all of those at present on the land and who want to remain on the land and get their living on the land. Therefore, in conjunction with the national soil survey there should be a body dealing with land usage which would ensure that land coming into the ownership of the State would be put to the best possible use.
Last night, Deputy Bermingham referred to the difficult role of the agricultural worker and said that in Dublin, Kildare, Laois-Offaly, and so on there were different wages structures for this category of worker. I would like to support Deputy Bermingham in his plea. There should be extended to agricultural workers many of the facilities that are extended to other categories of workers. Agriculture is becoming an increasingly complex industry. There should be a system of block release courses for agricultural workers and farmers' sons. It will not be an easy matter to convince farmers of the need for such courses. The concept is new, but it is highly desirable. There should be special grants operated by a State agency out of which the wages of agricultural workers should be paid in respect of attendance at classes in agriculture. There may be farmers to whom the economic value of having their workers trained for the highly skilled jobs they have to do might not be readily apparent and they might not be prepared to release their workers for attendance at such courses, particularly as farmers are very busy all the year round.
However, a scheme should be introduced of block release courses for agricultural workers. It might be possible to introduce an employment allowance or an increased employment allowance in respect of the attendance of agricultural workers at such courses. At these courses the workers would gain first-class knowledge and would attain skill in the operation of costly and complex machines. In no other industry will a worker be allowed to operate a machine, such as a combine harvester, costing £6,000 or £7,000, without the minimum amount of instruction in the care and maintenance of the machine. It is rather unfair that more thought has not been given to the better training of agricultural workers, not only in the care and maintenance of expensive machines, but also in maximum utilisation of the machines.
I should like to refer briefly to the great need for pressure to be brought to bear on the Department to prepare a scheme for the drainage of the river Nore and the river Barrow which flow through the rich pastural land of Laois, Carlow and Kilkenny. Many farmers in the Nore and Barrow basins are being deprived of hundreds of thousands of acres of land which could be valuable to them and which have a high agricultural potential. My information is that if the Department organised an application for a special FEOGA grant, or a grant from the new regional development fund, this kind of infrastructural development would qualify.
Those counties depend mainly on agriculture and, if this job were done, their purchasing power and their prosperity would be improved. We would also have very picturesque river basins opened up for our tourist trade. This year there was a tremendous recovery in earnings from the tourist trade. As more and more people in Europe begin to learn, for the first time, that we are an individual country jutting out into the Atlantic, more and more people will want to come to savour this small green and misty isle of ours for themselves.
Almost the full length of the river Barrow is navigable. Unfortunately that is not so in the case of the river Nore which flows through equally as beautiful a countryside as does its sister, the Barrow. I should like to see the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries tackling this problem in conjunction with the Department of Lands and the Office of public Works. At present these two rivers are not high on the list of priorities. If in the national interest the Department decided to seek finance for the arterial drainage of these two rivers, it would be possible for the Commission to advance money from one of those two funds. If the Department decide to make an application on these lines I will play my part with the Commission to ensure that there will be a speedy examination of the application.
Last, but not least I come to the important question of our horse industry. This morning I was looking at television while I was having a cup of coffee.
The Deputy had better not tell Deputy Blaney he was looking at television at 10.30 this morning.
It was a tremendous sight to see so many magnificent horses on the silver screen. We do not see enough of them over here, but nevertheless our horses are famous throughout Europe and the world. I suffer the disadvantage of being an untypical Irishman. I do not drink and I do not go to the races. When I meet my European colleagues they assume that I live it up and they ask me for tips. Unfortunately I know very little about the racing industry. I live rather near the Curragh and during the past few months I have had to swot up on form and learn something about this industry which I believe puts Ireland on the map more than anything else.
I am glad the new Bord na gCapall are getting off to a good start. It is regrettable that they have not acquired more premises. They may have been a little slow in starting off. That is a pity, but I suppose eventually the position will improve. The State should ensure through Bord na gCapall that a greater percentage of our top-class horses will be retained at home for propagation purposes. As a nation we must be prepared to put a much greater investment into this industry to ensure that we will continue to have the best horses in the world.
This is particularly important when we consider the show jumpers in the three-day-event, the threequarter breeds and the half-breeds. We must have the Irish stock and the stock breeds. We are not emphasising sufficiently the desirability and importance of maintaining our foundation stock. The Department must give greater incentives to people to breed and keep these horses. In the tourist areas, leisure horses should be in plentiful supply. In this way we will reap a rich and lucrative harvest in the years immediately ahead. I hope that all concerned will ensure that we will not miss this opportunity of living up to our reputation.
I would hope that our President, would consider reintroducing horses into his entourage. It would be very nice if we had the cavalry section of our Army back on horses again. It would be nice to have the Irish State coach, if we have one, rattling down O'Connell Street going to the Horse show. Spectacles like that do more to sell our produce than any board we might set up. This is one Irish produce we do not have to advertise. If people want our horses they know where to come to look for the best. My only worry is that economics might dictate that all our best animals should be sold to our competitors in this field.
Therefore, I would ask that adequate finances be made available in the Estimates to ensure that as many as possible top quality Irish horses be retained so that breeding stocks remain at a high level. It should be possible to support more generously the typical Irish breeds such as the Connemara pony. These animals are in greater demand now and it is gratifying that there are special classes for them in some of the European shows. We must be able to meet the increasing demand for these animals.
The roles of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries and his Parliamentary Secretary in the next six months will be difficult. They have exacting negotiations ahead regarding the common agricultural policy. I know they are capable of hard work and in the past eight or nine months they have proved this. I am confident they will keep up the pressure to ensure that Irish farmers get the best advantage from our new status in the greater Europe. We should not look on ourselves as people on the bread-line waiting for a handout. Our contribution to Europe, especially in agriculture, can be tremendous. When our Ministers attend at council meetings they are partaking in those discussions as equals.
As the years go by our contributions to Europe will gain in importance. We have the capacity to become the dairy of the Community, the country providing top quality products. We have the expertise and an advisory service that is far superior to the services available to French, Dutch and German farmers. During the years the Irish farmer has thought of his adviser as a friend and has approached him in that spirit for guidance. It would be disastrous if the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries were to introduce a new scheme regarding overtime for the advisory service. That service would lose half its meaning if the people concerned were to think only in terms of overtime The job would lose its present position of trust; at the moment it is possible for farmers to meet their advisers on the street, in a pub or on the farm, to mention their difficulties to the advisers and for the latter to arrange appointments with them. Irish farmers must continue to enjoy this sense of partnership with their advisers and it is essential that the advisers be kept up-to-date on farming matters.
The Agricultural Institute has made a tremendous contribution to Irish agriculture in the few years it has been in existence. However, this structure needs reorganisation in the interests of the economy as a whole and to ensure that through co-ordination the Irish farmers will get the best advice. There must be greater liaison between the people in research and those specialising in crop husbandry. There are many State boards that should have the advice of agricultural advisers. There is room for a qualified and experienced agricultural adviser —perhaps, a CAO or a Deputy CAO —on the Prices Advisory Body because these people have a specialised knowledge of farmers. If we are to keep an equal balance, greater use must be made of the expertise and knowledge of these people.
In the short-term as well as the long-term, I look forward to a new scheme of co-ordination. If we are to be successful, we must have a close working relationship with the personnel who are connected with Irish agriculture. In the county committees of agriculture we have the basis on which we can build a new rural authority which would ensure that the farmers are better served and are aware of world markets and trends.
If the Minister decides he wants a new national board to co-ordinate these activities, he has in the general council of committees of agriculture an excellent body. It needs only statutory recognition. If the leaders of the national voluntary agricultural organisations were included, with the least disturbance throughout the industry we could equip ourselves with an excellent advisory service and ensure that our farmers remain in the league of the most economic agricultural producers in the Community.
Now that we have a guaranteed long-term market in many sectors, it should be easier for our farmers to continue their work. I wish the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary continued success and I compliment them on their achievements in the past, I trust they have the good wishes and support of all the Members of the House. The CAP is coming before the various institutions of the Community in the next few weeks and we must have the support of the people to ensure that the Irish farmers get a fair crack of the whip, I know the Minister, his Parliamentary Secretary and advisers will continue to do a good job for our farmers.
I was amazed at Deputy McDonald saying that he wanted an agricultural adviser on the Prices Advisory Board. Most people, I believe, want on that board someone who will say "No" so as not to have prices rising as they are.
I had better come to agriculture now. The biggest section of the agricultural industry, bringing in over 35 per cent of the income, is cattle and beef. There is a firm trade for the continental type of cattle, what the factories call the lean cutters, such as Friesians, Charollais and so on. The Hereford and the Hereford cross will need a good English and Scotch trade.
With regard to the Hereford we will need to change our beef incentive scheme to some degree. We have been encouraging farmers to put Hereford bulls on Hereford heifers and we are thereby losing the hybrid. This system of breeding results in a very small, over fat, butty animal. It has not the growth qualities of the ordinary first-cross Hereford shorthorn. This problem should have been tackled before this. The farmer who is going into this type of beef production wants a heifer which will not produce too much milk; he wants a heifer which will produce just enough milk to feed her own calf. The Hereford cross is the lowest producer of milk, adequate milk for her calf with no side effects, such as too much milk, and she is much easier to work.
In the event of there being great emphasis on the single suckling, greater attention will have to be paid to the ultimate carcase. This is what I have been referring to in the economics of the business. This leaves a big question mark with regard to the effective utilisation of our renowned meat pasture for what is essentially a low return per acre. As well as that, if you cross again with the Hereford, you are bound to have an exceptionally low producer, an animal the factories will not require. If one goes to the marts at the moment, one finds a big number of Hereford cattle of eight and ten cwt coming through with, as we say, a handful of beef that you can catch each side of the tail. When you see that you know there is too much fat. In the case of the Friesian, the Charollais and so forth it is practically impossible ever to catch meat each side of the tail, even in the case of a heifer.
With the present value of stock and the price of money needed for the purchase of cattle, it is obvious that cattle production must be more effective in order to ensure survival. There is a very low return per acre as compared with intensives like poultry and pigs. One of our failures has been the inadequate provision of good quality winter feed to ensure continuous liveweight gain. This is illustrated by the big off-loading of cattle at the moment from Meath and elsewhere at this time of the year. It is most important that we should have adequate feeding all through the year.
The Department emphasises winter feed production, particularly silage, but only about 50 per cent of the animals are on silage during the winter. Very few have gone on silage at the moment. Farmers are more inclined to leave that kind of feeding until nearer Christmas or even after Christmas because they fear they will not have enough to keep the animals going until the end of March or April. There is, of course, very little grass at this time of the year and so the cattle lose weight. Quite literally, they are eating beef steaks off themselves, the most expensive feeding of all.
This has been a bad year for grass and hay production. In my own part of the country 80 per cent of the hay is of inferior quality. If it was made in fine weather it subsequently got caught in the rain when it was in the bale or cock. Even though it is dried out and in the shed now it is still not top quality. The performance of the cattle during the winter will be determined by the quality of the hay and silage. I have seen an analysis to the effect that the likely increase in weight of cattle on silage will be from 1¾ to ¾ of a lb per day. This situation will become much more important in the future because the trend in Europe is for a more or less even price the whole year through. Traditionally, we have been used to a low price in the autumn, a very high price in the spring up to about June, and then, as the grass comes on, the price starts falling again and hits its lowest point in October or November. That is the cycle. It was profitable to feed your cattle from November until March or April because prices began to rise in March. This will not be the case if there is an even price the whole year through and farmers will have to increase the weight of their cattle in the same way as they do it in the summer time in order to get a reasonable profit. Now winter feeding is much more expensive than summer grazing so the performance in winter will be of the utmost importance.
We should ensure that we get the best value from our winter feed and that we utilise our fodder in the best possible way. We were misled a little this spring because there were very high prices particularly during the last two weeks of April. Anybody who bought cattle during those two weeks will not go to the Riviera or the Canaries for a winter holiday because the profit on such cattle sold in October or November was very small. The price was excessive this year because of a world shortage of beef. There was also a very up-and-down trade during the winter because of rumours that the EEC levy was to come off completely in February. The prices started to rise in the first week of November and hit a peak on Christmas week when everybody was convinced that the levy was coming off in February. A week or two after Christmas word started to come through that this would not be the case and then there was a drop in prices until March when they started to rise again, which would be normal. The weight price in the spring can be misleading because after a hungry winter the size of the animal counts more than the weight. There can be a difference of, perhaps, £10 between the price of two cattle of the same weight. An animal with a good frame can carry much more weight than a smaller animal. If the coat hanger in your hall is a good big one, you can put plenty of coats on it; if it is a heavy small one, you can only put a few coats on it. It is the same with an animal at that time of the year.
Even though we are in the EEC our main trade will continue to be with Britain, with the best prospects becoming available in Germany and Italy. France is a net exporter of beef and we must remember that. In France there is quite a difference between one end of the country and the other. In Normandy the countryside is much like our own. The nearer the Equator you go, the less growth there is. It is very hard to produce grass there. We cannot emulate the continentals too much in this field because they have a good climate. They do not think too much of grass silage because they have a good summer when they can produce good grass. They have maize and they either make hay for the winter or put cattle inside on intensive feeding and use maize and barley.
In France particularly there is a trend away from the fat animal at two and a half to three years old. They are trying to go for one from 13 to 18 months of age. We have tended towards this and in the past we have upset some of our breeds by going for what was called baby beef 20 or 30 years ago. The Shorthorns have been bred down to little dexters and the Aberdeen Angus to a very small animal with a very light bone in an effort to get a good ratio between bone and beef. We have a chance of achieving this 13 to 18 month beef in the future on account of some of the continental breeds like the Charollais and Friesians that are not likely to put up too much fat. It is a pity we have not been able, over the years, to develop any of our own animals that are used to conditions here into something that could compare with the continentals. Many of us have taken photographs of the predecessors of those Charollais pulling carts and ploughing the land of Italy and Southern France. We have neglected our own native animals. Any of us who has tested cattle for TB know that the neck readings for Friesians are around seven or eight millimetres, whereas for Herefords it is usually ten to 12 millimetres. Our Irish animal has a thicker skin. This has been a natural development for the climate of the country. The continental cattle were used to a warm summer climate and a roof over their heads in winter and, therefore, have not developed a skin sufficiently thick to stand up to our Irish climate.
We hear a lot about bull beef. The continentals have been developing this. I believe the Department should be very loath to go for this type of beef unless a farmer is keeping the animals inside completely and zero grazing them, otherwise one could not expect to keep bulls inside farm fences. I am told that the only way to do it is by electrifying one's fences but it could create problems between farmers who have had good neighbourly relations over the years. It is the natural instinct of bulls to travel and to fight among themselves. We should look very hard at a development like this. I know the institute have been showing that you can get a higher price for this beef but I would not like the Department to push this type of beef production throughout the country.
In Europe they have had problems in regard to veal production. Many of us who travel in Europe like to eat veal when we go there. Veal production means that one must lose animals at the very tender age of four or five months rather than allow their development to continue.
In order to maintain the cattle population, it is necessary to increase the existing number of cows. In order to combat the problem the French have discontinued the payment of certain grants to farmers who engage in the veal producing business. One of the big advantages of EEC membership is the stabilisation of beef prices throughout the year. This is an aspect that we must concentrate on because otherwise it would not be to the benefit of Irish farmers to feed cattle during the winter months. I hope that the Minister is alert to this problem and that he will bear it in mind in his discussions at the Council of Ministers.
Beef can be produced much cheaper in the summer months than during the winter. The continentals have no glut periods because of free access to the German and Italian markets.
There is much talk of the continental breeds of cattle but we must think of these in terms of a late maturing. These cattle produce very lean meat so, perhaps, there is an advantage in having them in so far as they do not produce the excess fat that is found in our own breeds. I notice, too, that the continentals have dealt with the problem of bull beef in so far as all of this is kept in intensive units. I hope that if there is any such development here, stringent rules in this regard will be set out and adhered to.
Unfortunately, many of our younger and more progressive farmers are tempted to try out new ideas which in many cases can have a detrimental effect on their production. The Institute should ensure that any project undertaken with their assistance should be followed through to fruition. A few years ago there was great emphasis on sole winter production. Some very big farmers, including one from my constituency who is a member of the upper House, bought their cattle in the month of November, put them into yards, fed them on silage and sold them to the factory in April, making large profits. Their lands were left idle during the summer months except for being put into grass. This was all right for a while but when we began to experience the ups and downs of the beef trade, it was found in 1971 and 1972 that cattle bought in November were costing as much as those that had been sold in the previous April.
Naturally, the bank managers began to ask questions as to what type of cattle were being bought. In this regard the Press are sometimes too quick to highlight one good year in some aspect of farming. In an industry such as agriculture, care should be taken not to highlight anything until after it has had a reasonable trial period because if a farmer finds that after a couple of years some project is having a detrimental effect on his production, he must stop that project and go back to square one. On account of that one has to be very careful. Ordinary industries can change overnight from one commodity to another but agriculture is very slow moving and any changes to be made need to be well thought out. At times this has not been the case.
One could imagine that farmers would be inclined to think in those terms when the output from farms was at a low level. Anything that could make the livelihood better for the farmers was implemented. The only people who were slow to change were people who had their fingers well bitten, particularly after the 1921 period when prices dropped considerably after the war. Farmers then were very loath to invest money in their farms. At that time if they had £10 profit in the year they made a prisoner of that money. The younger generation were inclined to get away from this. Any project that meant the improvement of their holding was carefully considered and carried out with much success.
The pastures in County Meath are among the best in the world. The Tipperary man would say that the Golden Vale is better but, in my view, the Meath pastures are supreme. Some of the old pastures in County Meath which were not reseeded for hundreds of years produced great quantities of grass and helped to produce good quality beef when they were manured. Even in France they cannot compare with the pastures of County Meath or, for that matter, County Tipperary.
One thing we could learn from the continentals is the emphasis they place on stocking rates and the output they can get from the grass swards they have. The French try to get the maximum from their grass with strip grazing and tether grazing. The French are very concerned about their grass production because of the difficulty of growing it in the warm climate. One of our greatest assets is that we have from 20 to 25 inches of rainfall during the year on the east coast. It may not be the best for the tourist but at least it helps us to produce grass.
I understand that our cattle numbers, at present at about six million, have increased by about 50 per cent during the past eight years. One of the biggest factors leading to this increase in beef production was the introduction of the £16 heifer grant by a former Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Paddy Smith. The introduction of this grant scheme encouraged farmers to produce extra cattle. It had some side effects, but, by and large, it lead to the massive increase in the cattle population of the country. This country is capable of feeding at least 10 million cattle and I believe, we should do everything possible to reach that figure. In my view the emphasis should be on stocking rates and intensive grassland usage. This would have a great effect on our balance of payments and improve our position in the European community.
We are the only beef or cattle exporting country in Europe. The French and Italians, at certain periods, engage in this business but this country can keep up a continous supply of cattle for export all year round. For this reason it is important that we use all our land to the best advantage. Good work has been done and it is now possible to see the results of this. There is as much grass in the country, even with the extra 2½ million cattle feeding off the land, now more than there was 10 years ago because of the proper and increased usage of fertilisers.
An indication of the amount of fertiliser being used can be gained from the fact that Bord Bainne when they are anxious to learn what the milk yield will be communicate with the suppliers and importers of fertilisers. From the knowledge of the amount of fertilisers sold in the country they are in a position to say, with reasonable accuracy, the amount of milk and butter that can be expected in the summer and autumn period.
We have the quality animal going to England and Europe, and the Americans who are so fond of the hamburger, are keen to buy our boneless beef. It was a credit to our Minister that he was successful in having some of the high levy we had to meet on this export reduced. The Farmers' Journal, in a commentary about the beef sales this year, stated that the beef farmers who had to sell stores or beef cattle this autumn found themselves with very little profit since buying in the spring. Intervention began in the past three weeks. It was about 50 tons in the first week; they expected about 500 tons and I do not know what it was this week. The Irish beef farmer has been left very much out of step with his other farming colleagues in milk and pigs. To all intents and purposes traditional pricing arrangements have been dispensed with and it seems that after April a better or more level scale will come. The present situation with the full levies of all kinds operating, except on beef, is producing an unbalanced and artificially low income for beef farming. The Farmers' Journal says that at a time when beef should be encouraged, it is being actively penalised. They have pressed before for some form of solution but, they go on, the situation is now more urgent and it seems little relief can be extracted until next spring. The need exists for clear, coherent argument to be made on Ireland's behalf on the beef sector. The present situation must not be allowed to occur again.
Would the Deputy please give the reference?
The Farmers' Journal commentary. I cannot give the exact date but it is about three weeks ago. The pigs and Bacon Commission have done a good deal over the years in selling our produce around the world. I often feel that frequently they do not have the support of a constant supply of pigs for the market. A farmer is loathe to sell anything unless he knows exactly what he will get for it. It is only fair that he should know. It is hard for him to realise that often he might do better if he sold to the factory. We have had these price fluctuations. When the factories want pigs they will buy them on liveweight and will very often give more in the open market than they will give the farmer when he sells the pigs to the factory and they are killed and sold deadweight. I suppose one reason for this is that the factory is short of pigs and must try to keep staff going and fulfil orders.
The Department have not put sufficient work into all aspects of pig production. It is all right to give advice but other aspects such as marketing need to be dealt with in a much more detailed and organised way, such as by producer groups. These groups have a difficult job in trying to maintain a continuing flow to a factory. Poultry producers have been able to maintain a regular flow to the processors. Emphasis should be directed towards this end in the case of pigs also. One hears little of it; there is too much cutthroat competition among factories; possibly we have too many of them. It would be hard for one farmer to guarantee a supply of pigs unless he produced hundreds every week but we should have a group producing bonhams, and a group fattening. That would involve a number of farmers in each group so that a constant flow of pigs would be available.
Breeding and management in the case of grade A pigs have resulted in the standard going steadily up over the years. Farmers should not have to fear having their pigs downgraded. The factories have been somewhat at fault in this respect also over the years. If they get too many pigs they become very selective and downgrade anything but the very best. If they have a big order and need pigs badly, everything goes through. This can have a very bad effect on the confidence of the farmers. There is not sufficient liaison between factories and farmers in contrast to the cattle trade where you have the marts for those selling cattle. There is much liaison between buyer and producer there: they get to know each other better. In the case of the factory it is only the agent generally that the farmer sees and rarely does he meet the owner who is in a big office where nobody can see him or else he is away trying to secure markets or orders. The farmer is accustomed to dealing on a owner-to-owner basis. I think the bacon factories have fallen down badly on public relations between themselves and the farmers. There is much left to be desired here and the Department could do a good deal in this respect.
To return to beef, for a moment, I omitted to mention one matter in which the Minister and his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, should be interested. The commission charged by the marts should be referred to the Prices Commission because they must be getting excessive profits at present. The percentage charged for selling cattle is exactly the same now as when cattle were sold at from £15 to £30 per head. Now cattle are making £150 to £200. It is easy to realise the extra money involved. It costs about £50 to sell even a lorry load of cattle in a sale yard. I think that is excessive and I think the Minister should refer the commission charged by saleyards to the Prices Commission to see if a case can be made—I believe it can— for reducing commission on the sale of cattle. A few years ago there was a television programme which dealt with the commission on re-sales borne by an animal from the time of its birth until the time it entered a factory or was exported. The figure given was £11. That represents a great reduction in profits. That is a matter which should be considered in relation to price.
Sheep and mutton production is the cinderella section of agriculture. Prices fluctuate and marketing is, to some extent, a stop-go matter. At times the French market is flourishing. At other times the French market is closed and the price drops. The market may reopen in a month's time. There is not a steady trade on which to build. There is fluctuation as between winter and summer.
Farmers have not been given sufficient incentive to manure the land for mountain sheep-rearing. On one journey that I made from Maam to Leenane I noticed a mountain area of five or six acres which showed clear signs of having been fertilised. It was a great example of the advantage to be derived from proper manuring.
There are better prospects for the sheep-rearing industry now because of the likelihood that there will be an EEC sheep policy. In that event it will be very worthwhile for farmers to develop sheep production. One difficulty in sheep production is that sheep are not suitable for in-feeding in winter. Trials have been carried out, with varying degrees of success.
This country produces the best bloodstock in the world. Year in year out the favourite or one of the fancied horses in the Two Thousand Guineas or the Derby is Irish-bred. We have a world-wide reputation for bloodstock. Unfortunately, some bloodstock carrying the Irish name is American-bred. About 20 years ago Americans bought up all the good animals in England and Europe. The results of that are apparent today. We still have the finest bloodstock in the world, one reason for that being the limestone element in the soil in Meath, Kildare and the Golden Vale.
It is a pity that some of our show jumpers have not been able to reach the standard that one could expect in the 1930s and up to the outbreak of the Second World War. In the period 1936 to 1939 the Irish Army team competed in 13 Nations Cup events and won 12. Show jumping involves money, as well as horses. A great deal could be done by the Departments concerned in developing show jumpers. Germany is an example that we could copy in this respect. They are greatly interested in the breeding of high class show jumpers. They are concerned with quality rather than with quantity.
The Connemara pony is world famous. The Americans have a Connemara Pony Society, as also have the Dutch. It was a matter of luck that the breed had not become extinct before its potential had been discovered. It will take some time to achieve the optimum number of Connemara ponies.
I was rather surprised to see poultry production rated as number five, on the list. I presume it comes before sheep and lambs, including wool. I suppose one of the reasons is that poultry production is in the hands of a few producers. At one time there was farmyard production of, perhaps, ten or 20 hens on every farm.
In 1958 intensive production of poultry began. Unfortunately, it was motivated by personal profit, to get the highest return possible as quickly as possible. In the early stages the returns were quite staggering. In the production of broilers you could think in terms of £150 profit per 1,000 broilers. With that type of money involved, production spread very quickly in the hands of the few. Production started to fall to a certain extent three years ago and then they started to think in terms of what way the industry should be organised. They found they were better if they went in for turkeys, or broilers, or eggs. They cannot be mixed because of the high numbers involved. We should try to increase our exports to the Continent and also to increase consumption at home. A duck producer found that he was able to export ducks' feet to Japan. That was initiative.
There are untapped markets. Bord Bainne were able to go out and sell our milk products around the world. There is a good potential in the poultry industry and, if we looked for them, we could get markets around the world. Last year we exported roughly £500,000 worth from an overall industry worth £35 million. We need to do some research. Experts can go freely into Europe. We can always export to Germany. Intervention comes into the question of beef, milk and grain buying up the surpluses and making a floor price and a guaranteed price, but that is not the case in relation to poultry. The Minister could look for something like that.
There are sluice gate prices at various levels to prevent low-priced imports from a third country. The import levy is made up of two elements. One represents the difference between feed grain prices in the Community and the world market. The other is a fixed protective element amounting to 7 per cent of the average sluice gate prices during the four quarters preceding 1st May of each year. This is set at each quarter and the starting period is usually around 1st August. The sluice gate prices are fixed in advance at an amount equal to the CIF value at world prices plus a fixed allowance for transport, processing, and costs such as grain prices within the Community.
If the Deputy is quoting perhaps he would give the reference.
It is a report on eggs and poultry in the EEC. That is the only reference I can give. There is a certain amount of import and reexport from the Community and there is a certain amount of restitution payment which will compensate for higher prices of feed grains in the EEC. We have our set standards here and they have theirs. We are exporting so little that we have not done much exploratory work in Europe. We have a disease-free area between the North and ourselves. The Department are to be complimented on holding that over the years. Because we are disease-free we can export to other countries which have not got disease-free products. We have this advantage because we are an island.
On the question of eggs we are very fond of brown eggs which cost more to produce than white eggs. In England, the ratio is 50:50 and here it is 90:100. It is easier to produce white eggs. In most European countries it is usually around the 50:50 mark except in France. Like us, they prefer the brown egg. Some advertisements were issued by a private firm stating that the brown egg was better, but I understand there is not much difference in the nutritional value of brown and white eggs. It costs 2p extra per dozen to produce brown eggs. Apart from Norway we have the lowest consumption of eggs in Europe. It would have a beneficial effect if the consumption of eggs were increased and the Department might give some consideration towards encouraging this.
Some weeks ago, I asked the Minister for Agriculture if he would have trials carried out by compounders here, rather like the examinations on farm machinery carried out at Moore Park. After the Minister refused my request I did some checking on the matter. I have the results of tests on broiler production in connection with two flocks. They both had 30,500 and the only differences was that one flock was fed on one type of grain and the other flock was given a different grain. One group of birds were sold after 57 days and the other after 60 days. The stocking density, which is an important factor, was .63 per sq. ft. and .65 per sq. ft. The downgrading on one supply was 4 per cent and 7 per cent on the other while in one case the weight gain of the birds was better.
In an exercise of this kind the important thing is the profit margin. The flock that was fed on compound A made a profit of £1,175 while the other had a loss of £690. More emphasis should be laid on comparing returns. In this case there were two flocks, both managed in the same way, but one realised a profit of £1,175 whereas the other suffered a loss. I find the results of the survey rather startling. The firms concerned in this survey are among the largest in the country. If the Department or the Agricultural Institute carry out trials they should ensure that they use the kind of meal used by farmers; they should not use meal that is specially prepared. Also, the Department should take notice of the quality of the meal used. The firms concerned have set figures for protein and carbohydrates and there can be considerable difference between the various meals. I know the Department have the results of the tests I have mentioned and I would urge on the Minister to give serious thought to this matter.
With regard to the cattle trade, during the years we slipped up with regard to this industry. We were quite happy with our animals. We made no big effort to improve them, The same is true of the poultry industry. All the old breeds, the Wyandotte, the Leghorn, the Rhode Island Red and so on have all disappeared practically and have been replaced by new breeds from the USA and Britain. We did not put the money we should have into the industry and there was no attempt made at sex linking and colour. More serious still, what is left of our grandparents stock is controlled by European, American or UK companies. We have literally let the industry go out of our own hands. It is dominated by foreign companies. There are about 239 supply farms in the country. What is left of the old breeds are few in number, down 100 or so in the farmyard.
In 1958 the industry started to intensify and the small producer began to disappear. The big unit of 5,000 upwards is producing four times as much as the unit under 5,000. Where the small unit is concerned, there are 148 flocks, whereas in the bigger units there are only 70 flocks producing four times what the 148 are producing.
We have registered packers and registered wholesalers. Here again, the middleman is reaping the biggest share of the profit. I can never understand why something has not been done to remedy this situation. The bigger producer has cut out the middleman and gone straight to the supermarket. Again, prices fluctuate. The highest prices are in November and December and then they drop after Christmas and remain low until the following July when they start picking up again. The middleman should not be allowed to reap the profit he does.
We had unfair competition from Northern Ireland because when prices dropped there they came down and flooded the market here. That had a bad effect on our production. We are in the happy position of being disease free. We do not have Newcastle disease or Arizona disease or any of the others which can cause such havoc in poultry. We have a tremendous potential because we have excellent breeding stock both in the grandparents and in the day-old chicks. I mentioned the foreign companies dominating the industry. They realise the potential here.
We have not explored to the full the proper utilisation of poultry meat. There should be a campaign to get people to eat turkey at other times of the year apart from Christmas. It is an ideal dish for the week-end. It can be cooked on Saturday and it will do the family for the whole week-end. A variety of dishes can be prepared from turkey, cold or hot. It is usually about half the price of red meat. What I say about turkey applies equally to chicken. When I was a boy chicken was a luxury. We would have it on Sunday.
Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,
Poultry has an advantage it is only half the price of red meat. From being a luxury the broiler chicken has gone to being the cheapest food on the market. Promotional campaigns for both turkey and broiler meat are essential. There are advertisements at present for the Irish grain fed chicken. That should help to increase sales immensely. If we are going into exports, we should have a national identity plus an agreed national package. We should have containers that will identify our product with Ireland, otherwise Irish products will be regarded as UK produced items. Bord Bainne is a typical example of that with Kerrygold and there is the advertisement at present with the shamrock. Something like that should be done in the case of poultry.
We are eating 29 eggs less per person per year than the next lowest consumer which is West Germany. We should try to expand our egg production. Now that we are in the EEC we can aim at that.
Maybe the Deputy might teach hens how to lay eggs.
Egg production has been going up gradually over the past 10 years.
They are doing so much in Fianna Fáil now they might teach hens to lay eggs.
Do you want them to lay them with FF on them?
There will be some constipation around the country.
Deputy Crinion.
Egg production here has gone into the hands of English and foreign-based companies. It has also gone into the hands of very big producers. Producers with flocks of over 20,000 are producing 57 per cent of the total production in this country and there are only 54 of them in existence. There are 178 flocks of under 5,000 and they are only producing 12 per cent of the number of broilers in the country. There are 28 broiler processors in the country varying from the medium size to the very large ones. These birds are all oven-ready but 60 per cent are sold fresh and 40 per cent frozen. We could expand here and export as well.
We could introduce a few hawks.
(Interruptions.)
There are about 2½ million frozen chickens exported every year and 75 per cent of them are sold in portions. People who have travelled on the Continent will be familiar with the small pouissin chicken. We are developing the 1lb 14 oz. chicken, the really small ones here.
In 1971 the liveweight price of chickens was 8.5 pence per pound and they were being sold oven ready in the supermarkets at 18 to 20 pence a pound. The farmer was getting about 7 shillings or up to 10 shillings each and the supermarket was charging 17 shillings to £1 per bird. Of the large number of licensed hatcheries in the country, only four are producing broiler chicks. The capacity of these hatcheries varies greatly as between one and another and, obviously, the bigger ones are able to produce birds at a cheaper rate than the smaller ones. One aspect of the poultry industry that is a problem for the producers is that while input costs are rising considerably, the prices they are getting for the birds are increasing only slightly. Therefore, the producers must absorb a large percentage of the extra production costs.
Would the Deputy consider a hatchery for fighting cocks within the Fianna Fáil Party?
I think one would need to go to the Border area to find fighting cocks but I would remind the Deputy that I saw a few bantams around Limerick when I was there at the time of a by-election.
There are no hawks down there. I would not have thought that the Deputy could have spent so much time talking of chickens.
The Deputy will have to listen to me for another while.
I will wait no longer to hear any more of this rubbish.
Deputy Crinion.
Up to now poultry producers have been concentrating on the home market and while there is room for expansion in this area every effort should be made to get into the export trade. At present the Dutch and the Belgians supply the other Continental countries with poultry, but there is no reason why we should not endeavour to export our produce also especially to Germany which is one of the largest importers in this field. However, every effort should be made to make the produce more attractive. For example, there should be experimentation with spices in feedstuffs for chickens and turkeys. One of our more go-ahead producers was able to export ducks feet at a reasonable profit to Japan.
It is said that the grain-fed chicken has not as attractive a flavour as the chicken that was allowed run around in the open. I would advocate the checking of flavour in respect of chickens in the same way as this applies to beef. We must keep abreast of developments elsewhere because there is great potential for this industry.
Regarding turkey production the Department of Agriculture introduced new breeds some years ago. They imported three main strains from America and there have been various crosses from these. However, no new strain has been imported into the Athenry farm since 1965. If new strains are not imported it will be necessary to have a very high selection process of birds, probably, a selection of the order of only 15 to 20 birds per thousand. There has been diminished performance in respect of some breeds during the past year. It has been noticed, too, that at Athenry, birds have begun brooding after only about two weeks of laying whereas this should not happen for eight or ten weeks after laying begins. I understand that BUT's were being imported from Northern Ireland but that these too have been showing a diminishing performance. Perhaps this is because no new strain has been imported into the breed for a considerable time. I am glad to note that a new strain is being imported from Scotland and while this is not being done under the auspices of the Department at least it is an Irish firm who are responsible for it.
Chicken production is tending towards the larger units and 14 farms are supplying 58 per cent of the eggs to hatcheries. Very shortly this figure will be more than 60 per cent. The same is happening in relation to the production of turkeys for the Christmas market.
Under the new regulations will not all turkeys be frozen?
That EEC regulation is not expected to be enforced until 1976. It is expected that turkey prices will increase substantially for this coming Christmas, but that frozen birds will be a good deal cheaper so that people will tend to opt for the latter rather than for the high-priced New York dressed birds. The New York dressed bird is the traditional bird the father or the mother brings home by the legs with plenty of ceremony and activity.
Is the Deputy saying that people would prefer the frozen bird to the fresh bird?
No. At present people prefer the fresh bird but the EEC regulation stipulates that the bird must be frozen after 1976. The Minister said recently that he will try to keep the existing regulation relating to the fresh bird for as long as possible.
Would the Deputy agree with that?
It is immaterial.
Surely it is very material. Does the Deputy feel it should be a fresh or a frozen bird?
No, because it is the same bird; it is the same meat, but I feel the emphasis will be on the frozen bird. I use the fresh and frozen bird and I do not see any difference. It depends on what the market dictates.
I prefer the fresh bird any day.
Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins
Would the Deputy really know the difference?
The bird that came in out of the cold.
At any rate, Deputy Crinion prefers them frozen. That is the difference in his politics and mine.
I said I did not mind. Either of them would do and I have tried them both. I believe that when turkey is put on the menu in the restaurant in this House at Christmas it will be frozen and we will not know the difference. Turkey will be on the menu particularly after we have won the Monaghan by-election.
And the odd cock thrown in too.
And the doves and the hawks.
In this regard we should endeavour to have all the year round production. The majority of the broiler processing plants can handle turkeys but we often do not have the numbers to keep such a factory going. It is very hard to change from chickens to turkeys in such factories because a higher temperature of water is necessary for the turkeys.
Often the price increase for the turkey producer only amounts to the price the meal has increased. The producer then has to absorb the increased labour costs and other costs. We have in this country some groups who are prepared to go ahead and sell their products. A co-operative in the south has done a good deal of advertising and I feel sure they are getting the results. I believe their turnover has greatly increased in the last few years. This co-operative is selling hard in the market.
Is it not one of the difficulties that some of the big groups are not selling hard enough?
It is. They have the home trade and they are inclined to sit on it instead of going after the markets abroad.
And some of the people involved are drawing nice big salaries but are not doing their job?
That is correct. Our Department should try to encourage the expansion of these markets abroad. Some of our ordinary industries over the years have sat back content with the Irish market and forgetting about the tremendous possibilities abroad.
The horticultural market is one that has been up and down over the years. In my view there has not been enough planning in regard to horticulture. Gluts occur very quickly. I feel that when these occur little thought has been given to the market. I was involved in horticultural production for a number of years and I found out that while everything went all right for a time once there was a glut in England, or some other country, the Irish farmers were hit. The upshot of this is that there is a very low production in this field and our factories are finding it hard to keep going. Only a few of the go-ahead concerns have been able to carry on. Our own sugar company are experiencing many difficulties. One of the difficulties was that this company started big, and, in my view, it is difficult to make a success of anything that is started on a big scale. Such industries should be built up on a gradual process.
The Deputy has moved away from horticulture without any reference to bees and ecology. Was he afraid that he might get stung?
Possibly not as much as in other fields but there is not any great market. It all depends on what a person sells locally.
Honey is a very important food.
The Deputy's own county, Wexford, is doing well on honey and the Boyne Valley concern in County Meath are also doing well in this regard.
Pollution and sprays come into this.
They do.
Has the Deputy considered those?
No, I have not gone into this in any way.
An Foras Talúntais are doing very good work on this at the moment.
They are. Regarding farm ownership we should have a cheap way of setting up a company. If this could be done the question of ownership would be greatly improved and the young farmer would be given a greater say in the running of the farm. The father of the household, under the system, could be given a percentage of the proceeds of the farm at regular intervals. In many cases the son only seeks responsibility when he reaches a certain age. He wants to feel that he has a stake in the farm. Under present legislation it would cost a good deal to form a company and transfer the land to it.
If one does it the right way, it does not cost money. There are many people who do not know how to do it but this can be done and done cheaply.
I am glad to hear that but there would still be stamp duty involved and this could cost a good deal depending on the value of the farm.
There are ways of dealing with that also. Maybe the information group behind the Deputy did not know about that but there is a way of forming a company cheaply, and legally, within the present law.
I am glad to hear that because a big number of farmers are afraid to form a company or to give the son or daughter a chance. I hope that some of what I have said will be considered by the Department.
Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,
A Deputy
Is it in order for a Deputy to call for a quorum and then leave the House? The fact that he leaves the House indicates that he is not genuinely interested in getting a quorum.
Once a Deputy demands a House the Chair has no option but to order the bells to be rung for a count.
Could we have some light on this side of the House?
The ushers will bring lights shortly.
I suppose we are all very pleased with the contribution of Deputy Crinion particularly on the poultry business. I think the hidden hand of a poultry instructor was very close to his elbow. However, it is usual to have many contributions on the Agriculture Estimate because everybody realises the outstanding part played by agriculture in our economy over the years and gross national output has been increasing for the past ten or 12 years.
I hope you notice there are only two Members on the Fianna Fáil benches.
A Deputy
Only one.
We welcome the present Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary to office. They have made their mark very quickly. Because of our entry to EEC and because of the application of the common agricultural policy to this country we will have many changes. Our people can be satisfied that the security so often lacking in the past will be there in future. They are now protected against imports from non-members. In the past their income was uncertain due to our dependence on trade with our neighbours but owing to our entry to an enlarged Community our capacity to expand by means of investments which will be undertaken in years to come, is enormous.
Several factors will influence our capacity to expand and although many people are complacent at present, I believe we are approaching a crisis. I refer specifically to our dependence for increased output on the availability of manure and particularly of phosphate imports which have recently been highlighted. I refer particularly to the increased cost of imports from Morocco, when prices were trebled from 15 dollars to 45 dollars per ton. The prices there were unchanged for the past 20 years. Total output from Morocco is about 19 million tons of phosphate and we import at the moment 500,000 tons. This threat could become a reality and it is important that the Department should immediately make a survey and assess properly our present stocks, our future position and ascertain whether we have anything in our own country to replace imports. We can use the strength and the work of our partners in the EEC to strike a bargain with the Moroccan government from whom our manufacturers are importing phosphate which is a necessary ingredient of practically all manures. However, as farmers we are over a barrel and this will not be fully realised until present stocks are exhausted and supplies which merchants hold are dispersed. We cannot import any phosphates from Russia: it would be too expensive because of freight charges to import from the United States. The position is really serious at present.
I see no outside alternative: what can be done at home? During the emergency of 1939-1946 we were left without phosphate imports and had to rely on what we could supply from our own resources. We had the phosphate mines in Doolin, north County Clare and at that time the deposits there were explored and mined under very adverse conditions and with inadequate machinery.
I hate doing this but I should like to have a House. Deputy Taylor is making a very good contribution.
Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,
I had been referring to the possibility of the replacement of existing stocks of phosphate, as phosphates may be unobtainable in the years ahead, when Deputy Liam Ahern called for a House. I had referred to the void in our economy which was filled by the Doolin phosphate mines in a period of emergency, 1939 to 1946, during the last war. Those mines supplied our phosphate requirements. The mines are still in existence. According to a survey made some time ago, there are at least 1 million tons of phosphate in that area. The greatest depth is 4 feet 6 inches. I am now asking the Minister seriously to consider having explorations carried out in the area. At least, the mines can be relied on to enable us to maintain our agricultural output.
Some people may think that our requirements of basic slag will be obtainable in the future. In my view supplies of basic slag will run out in the foreseeable future because of the new method of processing steel which eliminates the by-products.
The type of manure containing this slag was particularly useful on the sour soils along the western coast where the clay is retentive. Now there is a serious situation because manure compounds must contain some phosphates. The 16 per cent superphosphate is sold at about £40 a ton. That price will go up to, perhaps, £56. We are paying a £10 subsidy on that grade of superphosphate. An increase in manure prices is inevitable. An Foras Talúntais and any branch of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries which could carry out research with a view to finding alternative supplies of manure and phosphate should engage in that activity as soon as possible.
It would be well to consider utilising the natural supply of manure in the form of seaweed. I am fully conscious of the use being made of seaweed as a fertiliser in our seaweed factories. Seaweed has been used along the western coast as a fertiliser. Seaweed could possibly supply a replacement for other manures of which there could be a serious shortage.
This is a transitional period in the EEC and the benefits of membership are not flowing fully to the people. In the milk industry—we depend on sales of milk to creameries—the increase to farmers has already been at the rate of 4½p per gallon. In fact, we are only one penny or one half-penny short of the present price in the EEC countries. Therefore, there is every encouragement for our people in dairying to further expand production and they can be quite sure that the market will be available. It is important to have a market available for what we produce.
It is worth noting that there has been a rather sudden change away from the Shorthorn breed of dairy cow within the past few years to the Friesian stock. The Shorthorns were the backbone of our dairying industry for a generation or more. They now seem to be taken over by the Friesian breed. In our artificial insemination centres we can see the rapid increase in demand for progeny from Friesian stock. That change may or may not be a good one. They have not yet run the course for the same length as our Shorthorn stock. The Shorthorn had a dual purpose: a good quality dairying herd combined with a good quality beef animal.
Up to now the Friesian stock have shown a good market price at our marts and the milk yield is very encouraging. It is a matter for individual farmers to decide from which breed they will make up their herd. It would be a serious matter to ignore the tried and tested Shorthorn breed. The Department should make every effort to preserve the good quality stock you get on the west coast, with good bone which is vital for breeding purposes. They should consider paying some kind of subsidy to farmers who have outstanding stock. That has been done, but I wonder has there been adequate publicity to highlight the scheme? That refers to a particular type of stock which is popular for dairy purposes.
Milk deliveries to creameries this year from our herds went up by 7 per cent and the farm prices, on the whole, went up by 21 per cent. Of course, anybody engaged in that business realises fully that farm costs have mounted rapidly also. In the years ahead, with the new incentives because of our common agricultural policy, we can visualise a changed pattern of farming. The directives being issued from the EEC are very important. It should be realised fully by our people and by our farmers in particular, that they must conform to the new thinking and the new methods. The most unpopular method of keeping accounts on farms must be introduced everywhere if farmers hope to qualify for development grants.
Those grants are not fully introduced at the moment, but a retirement scheme will be introduced in the very near future. The Minister for Lands gave some publicity to that scheme. In fact, a few years ago we introduced something similar on retirement and retirement pensions. It was not popular and it was not acceptable to farmers for some reason. In the years ahead the amounts to be paid to retired farmers will be increased. They will be much higher and this will be an encouragement to people to retire if they find they are unfit to carry on because of health reasons, or because of inadequate farm labour, or something like that.
Vocational training for farmers will also be introduced, and more aids for purchasing breeding stock and equipment. There is a channel through which we could communicate to the farmers which has not been utilised as fully as it should be. While full publicity should be given in our daily papers of all the changes that are envisaged, it is not easy for this knowledge to get down to the farmers. Therefore the local papers, television and radio have a very important role to play. We must, if you like, conform to all the EEC policies. We must do quite a lot within a given time about the eradication of disease. We have not an unlimited period in which to conform. It is vital that the maximum publicity should be focussed on the people who are to benefit.
I looked at programmes of agricultural value in the past which definitely made a great impression on the viewing public. I do not think we can always have people of the same ability as one person I recollect on television, that is, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Keating, who had a unique knack of communicating with the public. Of course, not everybody can get through so well to the listener. Our daily papers and our provincial papers can inform the people of the changes which will be necessary in the future.
Prior to our entry into the EEC the Exchequer met a major share of the export losses which were incurred by our marketing agency, Bord Bainne. That liability is no longer ours. Bord Bainne did a magnificent job and, after their change over to a co-operative in the recent past, they are still doing a wonderful job. We should compliment them on their foresight in having stocks of butter in the United States before the restrictions were imposed.
At the moment we are subsidising butter consumption here to the tune of about £600,000. Beneficiaries of social assistance are getting butter at a reduced price and thus we are recognising our social obligations. The process of dairying is undergoing a change. Rationalisation programmes have been started in some areas and are now proceeding in the Dairy Disposal Board. This board was established in the early days of the State by the late Patrick Hogan, father of Deputy Hogan O'Higgins. The people in the west, particularly in Clare, who have enjoyed the benefits will always appreciate that man's foresight and thoughtfulness for those who had to live on the less fertile land.
Through the efforts of the board, creameries were erected at suitable centres and opportunities were created for milk production, People may criticise the board and their efforts in the past, but it was difficult in the early days to convince some that it was in their interests to supply milk to the board. In those days it was a long, uphill fight to convince them that the processing of milk at a central creamery was the best method of manufacturing butter of a quality acceptable on the home and foreign markets.
We are in the process of change. The purchase by farmers of the property of the Dairy Disposal Board, of the creameries, the artificial insemination centres and other assets is taking place. Perhaps in Clare we are not too happy about the price requested by the Minister; perhaps we consider that some of the buildings erected 40 years ago have deteriorated considerably, that their present condition does not meet modern requirements, and that there is a remote possibility of closure of some of the branches. Therefore, we would ask the Minister to consider reducing the price of the assets in County Clare. During the years milk has been supplied at a price lower than that paid in other areas, dairymen have been contributing towards the expenses of the industry and expansion of the board's assets and the farmers' money played a considerable part in that expansion. When considering all these facts one might think that the price now demanded should be reduced. I am suggesting this to the Minister because in the next few years we will have to form co-operatives.
It is fully realised how dependent we are on an adequate supply of fertilisers for our grasslands. It is vital for the dairy industry to have meal at a reasonable price. In the dairying areas, particularly in the west where there are severe winters, it is difficult to have stock in outlying land. The stock must be housed and consequently the outlay is so heavy people may not be able to continue in production if meal prices continue to rise.
It is difficult to obtain supplies of soya beans, but proper protein intake is vital. One might ask if the Department of Agriculture do not think it necessary to encourage expansion of the acreage of tillage in the near future. It is alarming to note that there has been a drastic reduction of 62,000 acres in tillage this year. Perhaps we might reduce our costs if we could encourage the people to go back to what had been a normal practice in the past. I am not referring to the war years, I am not referring to the period when farmers had to work with the plough because tractors were not available. It is necessary now to give every encouragement to expanding the acreage of tillage and the production of cereals and barley, of which we have the highest yield in the European Community. We should explore that potential to the utmost. I am suggesting these points to the Minister and his Department. We have to think of ways and means of reducing the costs of those engaged in agriculture. If they are to remain in agriculture, the profit motive must be maintained. It is only right in any walk of life that a person knows where he is going and what he will have at the end of a given period.
That brings me to the necessity for a farm plan before we will be eligible for any EEC grants. The pilot areas were introduced because of the low yield in small farming units. The survey which led to these areas being established was carried out by Dr. Scully and that survey clearly showed that there was a lack of investment due principally to our inability over the years to get an economic price. It was due also to valley periods, like the economic war period, the period during which people left the land. That had its effect for a long number of years and it became necessary to find out whether we could maintain those who wished to remain on the land on their holdings. That wish is very deeprooted in this country because land has always been closely woven into all our efforts at survival and independence.
In the years ahead I believe there is a brighter future for those on small holdings but they must accustom themselves to a businesslike approach; they must keep accounts; they must have a plan; they must increase their stock, improve their holdings and so on. The study to which I referred shows there is a great potential to make these holdings pay. There must be a pooling of all the advice available from every branch of agriculture. In the past there was a lack of co-operation. All had the same objective, the raising of the standard of living of the people on the land by ensuring better profits from the land, but all did not unite to give the farmer the benefit of a co-operative effort. That has changed now and there is a coming together of all the different interests involved. The land project schemes gives maximum benefit because land is drained, manured and limed and all that leads to increased fertility. I am glad these schemes will continue.
With regard to the production of bacon, the tendency at the moment is towards bigger and bigger units. I am glad the Minister has seen the serious danger in this and that he is taking steps to correct this trend. Many small producers has decided to go out of production. Because of the high price of grain, the profit motive has ceased to exist. The small farmer who went in for mixed farming always kept a few pigs which he fattened. It is very difficult to convince him now that there is any profit in doing things in a small way. This is to be regretted because these were the backbone of the industry. This is something at which the Minister and his Department should have another look. Mixed farming is declining and it will go on declining unless some profit can be restored in it. It is a pity we should have to rely on the 400 and 500 units to show a profit of £1 per pig over a period of over three to four months. Not everybody can afford to invest in a large unit. I do not believe that the big commercial units will save the industry because they can diversify very rapidly into something in which there is a better profit.
The eradication of disease is vital. Millions have been spent over the last 20 years on the eradication of bovine tuberculosis. In the past few years the eradication of brucellosis has been undertaken. We have a very short period within which to comply with the demands of the European Economic Community and, unfortunately, there is a tendency on the part of some, a small number, to negative the effect of this scheme by certain evasions. I am glad the Department will not countenance these because, if they are allowed to continue, the situation could be very serious indeed. The Minister has indicated that he will take immediate steps to put an end to these evasions. This is vital if the industry is to prosper.
It is in the interests of the people that the brucellosis scheme at present in operation should be maintained. There are certain complaints in regard to the operation of the scheme but one must always give an opportunity for a scheme to get off the ground. I have heard the farmers complain about a delay in purchasing stock shown to have brucellosis. Coming on to winter, when fodder is probably not adequate, an effort must be made to get diseased stock off the farm as rapidly as possible. A delay of five, six or seven weeks seems to me to be too much. There should be an adequate number of inspectors in each country where the scheme is in operation so that there would be no delay in buying such stock. Market value is paid at the moment but I have heard many people express the view that market value is not replacement value. I believe replacement value should be paid. Anything else is not realistic. Costs will be much higher coming on to spring. If it means recruitment of additional staff and if it means concentrating on a particular area in the winter period, this should be done. The farming community would appreciate the Department's efforts. There can be no real expansion of stock unless stocks are free of disease. Everybody should be encouraged to co-operate in this scheme.
To encourage horse breeding the Department have over the years given nominations for certain brood mares and Irish draught mares. They have shown a real interest in maintaining a good quality stock. This has been successful except in areas where people find that cattle can bring in a greater income. Farmers who kept good quality brood mares—I refer particularly to farmers in my own county— would not sell them for any money. They now find this is paying a real dividend. We are producing the best hunters in the country now because the Department have allocated 50 or 60 very good quality thoroughbreds. With proper mating there is now an excellent type of show-jumper being produced.
However, something more has to be done, now that cattle prices are rising. The horse and cattle shows held annually all over the country are a method of displaying our best stock. I hope the Department will introduce a scheme to allocate to our agricultural show societies some type of encouragement by way of higher grants which could be distributed by the committees of agriculture which I am glad to say will be in operation in the years ahead. There is at present a very small grant allocated to show societies. It is entirely inadequate and not in keeping with present-day standards. The provision of a suitable grant for those who have good quality brood mares and, in fact, horses of any age is very important to retain stocks. Bord na gCapall are doing a magnificent job. They have not been very long in that sphere of activity but they have done a good deal.
It is difficult at present to get any type of apprentice into a forge. Grants have been introduced for modernisation, the installation of welders and different equipment for ironwork.
I would advocate the introduction of a grant for the purpose of modernising farriers' premises. Because of a declining horse population, the farrier's business is not nearly as profitable as it should be. This is an art that we should endeavour to retain. It is important that animals be shod properly; otherwise they go lame. Apprenticeships to this trade should be encouraged. I know that Bord na gCapall are playing their part in this respect but, perhaps, more could be done to encourage young people to take up this trade because the number who are interested is very small. This is an important aspect of the horse industry and, consequently, more attention should be given to it.
The greyhound industry, too, is very important in the context of our exports and, therefore, ought to be given every encouragement. Bord na gCon are doing a good job in this area but there is room for expansion. We have many good trainers some of whom have succeeded in producing dogs that have been successful in major events in Britain and elsewhere as well as in Ireland. Many dogs, too, have been sold to English owners.
In the years ahead there will be substantial aids for our agricultural industry by reason of the application of the European Agriculture and Guidance Fund. The contribution will amount to one quarter of the cost of the development of farms. In this context I would like to contradict the publicity that has been given to the non-availability in the future of grants for modernisation of farm buildings, for drainage or for the purchase of such commodities as harvesters. I do not know from where such publicity emanated but it is not correct because aids will be available for all these purposes.
One type of land that has not been given due attention is common grazing land, both mountain and flat land. There are such lands in every county. The matter is one that should be tackled now. Overall, there is a huge acreage of this type of land and experiments have shown that it can be brought successfully into production. One area I have in mind in particular is in Mitchelstown where one can see a lovely strip of green grass all the way to the top of the mountain. This is an example of what can be done in this regard. In this island we are noted for our ambition to expand our territory. Perhaps our methods are not always the right. I am not referring to expansion within the area over which we have jurisdiction but to that land that is on the other side of the Border. However, there is much land within our own area that we could improve.
Obviously, there is not sufficient incentives in respect of drainage. Perhaps this is not the Estimate on which to raise this matter but it is important in the context of agriculture. Some State body must be responsible for the water-logged condition of much of our best farming land. This situation has existed for many years. The Land Commission have not accepted responsibility for it and neither have the Board of Works nor the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. The rate of investment in arterial drainage is so slow that it is impeding progress in the smaller schemes because there must be outlets in the first place. At this stage it would seem necessary to float a national loan for the purpose of raising the necessary moneys to deal with this problem so that all of this flooded land could be drained and put into production. It is disheartening to hear so many people tell of their hay being swept away by floods and of the losses of stock in areas adjacent to rivers that continue to flood.
We appreciate the work done under the land project scheme, the benefits from which are obvious. We must give credit to Mr. James Dillon for the introduction of that scheme but the present Minister, too, should make his mark in this regard. At least he should direct that a survey be carried out in each county of the acreage that is not arable because of flooding. Maybe, it is not the function of the Agricultural Institute to become involved in matters of this nature, definitely not at the drainage stage but possibly later. We should pay a well deserved compliment to Dr. Walsh and his team who are doing excellent work in the institute. They have shown how land which people had no hope of ever reclaiming can be brought into production by the use of the proper machinery and the necessary expertise by the men I have mentioned.
When one talks about land the question arises of the people who have inadequate holdings, holdings which are not considered to be economic or viable in the present sense of what the European standards demand. Much thought has been given to this problem over the years but very little action was taken. The Land Commission considered a few years ago that a viable holding should consist of 50 acres and this has since been increased to 70 acres. The commission consider that if a farmer is to have a good viable holding he should have at least 70 acres of good land.
I cannot see how it is possible in a congested area, and any area in the west of Ireland could be described as congested, to create economic holdings when you have too many congests and too few acres. Is it not time that our county development teams and the promoting agencies like the IDA and, in the Shannon region, the Shannon Free Airport Development Company, concentrated on diversification of industry in those congested areas to relieve pressures which exist on small holdings? These people have clung to their holdings and we should not do anything to push them out.
We should make an effort to make such farmers more secure in their holdings. We should give our attention towards encouraging them at every level to remain on their holdings. The question arises as to what can be done. In my view the diversification of industry and the location of that industry in areas of high congestion and depopulation would help to create a contented community of what could be described as part-time farmers. They would do as is done in Germany, work in a factory during the day, return to their farm in the evening and, with family labour, do the chores on the farm.
We cannot boast of our achievements in the past in these congested areas. I have seen too much depopulation in those areas. I have seen a constant drain of the best of our youth from this particular type of land that has been completely ignored in the past. There has been a complete failure to arrest that trend which has gone on and on for years. I lay the blame for that at the feet of the past Government, and of any previous Government who made no effort to give our young people work in their own counties and in their own districts.
I also lay the blame on the promoting agencies who have ignored this mass emigration. I refer, particularly, to those who are responsible for promoting industry in such areas. I am aware of the situation that existed in two rural districts in my constituency from 1966 to 1972. In one district more than 900 people left. This figure was published in a statistical report. In the other district more than 640 people left. During those years little or nothing was done by the promoting agencies to diversify industry.
In the short period of office of the present Government I have seen, and this may not be relevant to the present discussion but it is relevant to the efforts to arrest a trend which is creating depopulation in our rural areas, our present Minister for Industry and Commerce making a serious effort in my area to arrest that trend. He has taken adequate steps which had not been taken prior to this to diversify and promote industry in these areas of high depopulation. I am aware that this is only the initial step. I know the Minister concerned is aware of the loss to our native county and to our country of our youth and the effect it has had on our economy. Because of that I must publicly acknowledge the efforts of the present Government Minister for Industry and Commerce to diversify industry and make the people who are responsible for the promotion of industry aware of our intentions.
An important factor in the promotion of our agricultural output in the years ahead will be the availability of adequate credit and the proper use of the moneys made available. We have about £10 million from the World Bank which will probably be distributed by the Agricultural Credit Corporation. We have also our own particular allocation from the Exchequer to the Agricultural Credit Corporation. Quite a lot has been allocated to people for expansion via the corporation for the purchase of machinery, land and the manuring and drainage of holdings.
It is difficult for people who have neither an economic holding nor sufficient money of their own to secure a loan. I may be wrong in that impression but I have known of cases where there was difficulty in obtaining money by people who wished to purchase land and machinery. It is possible that the Agricultural Credit Corporation has the necessary information and the figures relative to a man's creditworthiness which were not available to me. However, I would like to see a greater relaxation, by the Agricultural Credit Corporation and in interviews by their officers with practical farmers, a more realistic approach to their ability to work when given the necessary money to purchase machinery or expand their holdings. That is very necessary now because instead of pushing people out we should encourage them to stay by the application of all schemes that are possible.
The Minister has been criticised by correspondents whose knowledge of agriculture I would question and whose knowledge of his capacity is probably limited. They use the media to criticise him where he does not deserve it while ignoring many of his achievements since he took office. This should not discourage the Minister; criticism will do no harm. The Minister seems to accept the criticism humorously. By and large, he has been accepted by the farming community and others and we hope he will have a long time in office to implement the many schemes I know he has in mind to uplift the agricultural community.
I do not know if I should refer to social assistance but I should like to say that the fact that benefits to farmers have been increased was a recognition by the Government that there was need to give them an income for their work at least equal to that enjoyed by non-agricultural workers. It will take many years of investment before that uplift will be sufficient to compensate for all the wrongs of the past through the total neglect of people in the lower income group. I welcome any assistance for the lowly-paid, whether farmers or farm workers or others in the less well-off strata of our society.
The work of our advisory service in future will probably be much more concentrated than in the past. A figure of one advisor for each 700 or 800 farmers has been mentioned as about average. This was entirely inadequate. If we compare our advisory service with that which our European partners had for the past 20 years, we find we were very much at the bottom of the table. This situation also applies if we consider the per acre investment in our land. What success have our advisory services had over the years? Did the farming community welcome and make full use of their advice or did they shy away from the officers concerned? The older farmers did not avail fully of the service, generally speaking. Too few people availed of the advisory service in each townland. Probably one reason for this was that, having got the advice, the farmer found himself without adequate capital to implement the policies recommended by the agricultural adviser whether these concerned housing, insulation, proper machinery or proper manuring, et cetera. That gap should now be bridged quickly. We cannot afford to wait because if we are all to benefit together from the schemes that are being and will be introduced we must all share in the necessary information. We know of night classes in rural areas. Perhaps the attendance was not high. We know of visits to farms by instructors. Generally, these men worked hard to give the necessary expertise but some people did not avail of the information.
We had another type of officer in the Department who was accepted on practically every holding because he had something to give. He was in a position to give grants for erection of modern farm buildings, reconstruction or water grants and other types of grants which are available. This poses the questions: should we now consider giving wider scope to agricultural inspectors, as they were called? Should we now consider giving them greater scope to be involved in every farm scheme that is introduced? The team should work as a team providing all services at one time. There should be a unified effort.
As regards agricultural education generally, the number who can avail of the advantages of residence in an agricultural college or who can obtain a degree in agriculture is very limited. I realise that schemes will be introduced for agricultural education through vocational schools or by other means which will include instruction in the maintenance and operation of new machines. There is one aspect of education which has been ignored. A large percentage of the pupils attending rural primary schools will remain on the land. In rural areas there should be a system of education which would inculcate an interest in agriculture in the young minds. The system of education there should be directed towards inducing a love of the land, a love of farm animals, and should give them some knowledge of farming methods.
In the last century, under a British regime, the text books used in rural primary schools and the copy books of the pupils attending them showed that agriculture as a subject was given equal importance in the curriculum with mathematics, English, geography, and history. Euclid and trigonometry were taught in the national schools at that time. Secondary and vocational education as we know it today was not available at that time.
Teachers may contend that there is not room in the curriculum for another subject but it is not too much to ask that in rural areas the pupils should be taught something about the area in which they live, the nature of the soil, something about the stock they pass on their way to school. Generally, greater interest in their surroundings should be stimulated. It may be argued that nature study is taught in the national schools. This is a matter that should be considered by the Minister for Education who is distinguishing himself in his own sphere. It is a matter about which the Minister should consult with the Minister for Education. It could be discussed with the INTO. An atmosphere should be created in the schools which would tend to make the younger people consider a future on the land rather than in industry or in some other country. We should explore the possibilities.
I have referred to the new method of training which will give farmers in the older age group greater knowledge of the work that they will have to undertake. In this respect we should not ignore a line of communication which is already established. I refer to that virile organisation, Macra na Feirme, which has uplifted the young people of the farming community. That organisation has improved the social atmosphere and has endeavoured to stimulate greater interests in farming methods. I remember when that organisation was started. At one time it was rarely that farmers from the east of a county would meet farmers from the west of the county other than at a football match or a coursing event or horse racing. There was no consultation or communication between them in regard to their particular business. Macra na Feirme established throughout the country a chain of clubs. Because of the establishment of these clubs, other farmers' organisations were built up such as the NFA, the ICMSA and others. Macra na Feirme was formed for purely educational and social purposes. The Department of Agriculture and Fisheries could, with advantage, make a contribution towards the headquarters of that organisation. They could definitely channel information through the organisation apart from the other methods which I mentioned earlier on to give widespread publicity to any schemes they intend to introduce in the future.
Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present.
I was referring to the use of a very popular organisation through which to disseminate knowledge from the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, that is, to the use of the voluntary organisation, Macra na Feirme, better known as the young farmers' clubs. I had finished my observations on that and I should like now to refer very briefly to one aspect of our economy, that is, the tillage area. I referred to the decline of 62,000 acres which I hope will be reversed in the years ahead. I referred to the necessity for doing so because of the high cost of imported grains, et cetera.
I should like experiments to be made into developing a type of potato which could survive on the west coast where we get heavy rainfall and where the survival of the potato is made more difficult because of heavy clay and retentive soils. Somebody suggested that they should be washed. I know of one variety that can survive better than most. Because of heavy rainfall followed by a period of intense heat which creates an atmosphere in which they cannot survive, many farmers have suffered a total loss of their crops. Possibly the Department would research the possibility of introducing some variety which could survive in not very attractive conditions.
I should not conclude without referring to the staff of the Minister's Department and the officers down in the country in their different capacities and, above all, to the men in our veterinary service. These men are available at all times day and night. I must pay a particular compliment to them. I have long experience of their dedication to their profession. I cannot speak too highly of the contribution they are making to the eradication of all types of diseases. They also deal with the day to day problems which arise. Our Minister recognises their work also.
The picture is much brighter at present than it has been for years. We have higher prices. We have great stability. We have a more contented community, generally speaking, apart from the depressed areas to which I referred and to which I hope particular attention will be paid. This is an acknowledgment by all, even by those who are dependent on a prosperous agricultural community, that when the policies of the Government and the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary are pursued over a long period of years, the Irish State will be one of the foremost producers of the European Economic Community.
I join with other speakers in wishing the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary well in the positions they hold in the Government. On their success and that of their Department will depend the welfare of many people in the rural and coastal areas and in the urban areas also. Going through the debate on the Estimate, it is obvious that there is a large amount of unanimity on what is good for the agricultural community. Contributions have been made by the shadow Minister, Deputy Collins, and the former Minister, Deputy J. Gibbons. It behoves this House so far as possible to be unanimous in its decisions and in its support for Ministers and particularly a Minister like the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries who must negotiate outside the country. He will do so with more confidence because of the fact that he will be conscious that he represents the majority of the people. His is a difficult task and one must wish him success in it.
On behalf of the Minister may I say thank you.
Reference has been made to the fact that we are now in the EEC.
That is rather foreign to the members of Deputy Gibbons's party who spoke previously so we must congratulate him.
This gives much confidence to the farmers who are at last guaranteed something like a constant and fixed price for their produce. This was the greatest curse the farming community had to face throughout the years. This was my main motivation, perhaps, in asking my constituents to support our entry into the EEC. It will not always be an easy road but we must accept the rough with the smooth.
The Minister in several ways referred to one aspect that interests me. He indicated the change he would like to see in relation to the common agricultural policy. He referred to the monetary situation, to the CAP in regard to items such as sheep and potatoes, and to structural reform. The Minister pointed out that Directive 159 deals specifically with these matters and it also indicated there must be structural reform of land.
From this I gather we will have three types of farmers in the future. We will have the farmer in what he called "the commercial sector". I take it he will be able to provide a more than adequate income for himself and his family, one that is in excess of an industrial worker's income. The Minister then mentioned the man who will be accepted as a farmer to develop his holding. It is towards this man that most of the EEC aid will be directed. He indicated those aids as approximately three in variety: first, the farmer who works to a farm plan and keeps accounts will get loans at a low interest rate; secondly, if he takes a special interest in beef or sheep he will get a payment on his acreage. This surprises me because I should have thought that if the policy is to increase production payment should be on the basis of the extra animals produced; thirdly, the developing farmer will have priority for whatever land is released by farmers who retire. After those categories is that group who might be described as the lower income group and it is indicated that the aids will be available to them until 1977. I should like the Minister to explain these matters more fully.
Great emphasis is laid on the fact that the developing farmer will get land from those who retire and this prompts the question: will he have priority in regard to land the Land Commission will acquire, compulsorily or otherwise, or will the man in the lower stratum have a claim on that land? It is essential we get information on this question. If the farmer in the lower stratum who will get aids until 1977 is not in a position to get land from those who retire, how can he get into the category of developing farmer?
The Minister mentioned handicapped areas and said much of the country could be so considered. I should like to know if the farmer in the lower stratum will get extra help as a farmer living in such an area? One wonders what kind of help he will get. He may be too old for training but his family may be young enough to accept training. This should be done on a more intensive basis— perhaps, they should be helped to develop projects such as the rearing of pigs, the growing of vegetables and so on. If a farmer in this category is not given priority in the allocation of extra land, after 1977 there will not be a future for him. Obviously, industry should be created to help this person and we all agree this is the answer. Therefore, the question of structural reform must go much further than the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and I agree with Deputy Taylor that the other agencies must take up the slack and provide employment for those people.
Reference was made to the involvement of agricultural advisers, the Department of Lands, the ACC and the Office of Public Works in the development of land. I agree those agencies should be used to solve land problems, particularly in the west where drainage is so necessary. In many cases full use cannot be made of the land project schemes because the outfall is not there for the water-logged land. The agricultural advisory services should consider this matter and urge the Minister and the Department to try to solve this difficult problem. Unfortunately, another Department have decided a cost/ benefit analysis must be done on all drainage schemes carried out by them and this creates difficulties. There must be another approach to ensure that the schemes are not too costly. It is amazing how beneficial the small schemes have proved and how satisfactory they are from the farmers' point of view. The idea of spending large amounts on major schemes may go by the board as a result of the cost/benefit analysis and at that stage we must be prepared to provide for the need that will exist. The obligation rests as much on the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries as on the Office of Public Works or any other section. It is the duty and obligation of the Department to improve the land and they can do this by carrying out drainage works. The Minister referred to the voluntary nature of the choice a farmer would have under EEC conditions. I do not accept that there will be a choice because, as I understand the outline of the structural reform of land, the person in the third group is not going to have much choice in the long run unless he gets the aids necessary to enable him to continue in agriculture.
The directive also makes reference to socio-economic factors, such as training and education. There is a great deal of training and education available to the agricultural community and in many areas good use is being made of them. At times, however, the centres do not seem to be suitable and the paucity of the attendance must be very depressing for those conducting the lectures. It is difficult to see what the solution is except to convince the people one is trying to persuade that it is worth their while to attend the lectures. By and large, the agricultural advisory service does a good job. In my experience they are prepared to go to any length and inconvenience to help those who need their help. It is regrettable that more advantage is not taken of this service.
The Minister referred to the rebuilding of the faculty of agriculture in Belfield and indicated that Ballsbridge as a centre for veterinary education is on its way out. I thought he would indicate that it was proposed to build these two new institutions on the same site convenient to each other. This is what should be done. They are, after all, complementary and it would be to the advantage of the students in both faculties to be in touch with each other. If the matter has not been finalised some thought should be given to this aspect.
The dairying industry creates some problems in my constituency. It is not as well developed as we would like it to be. Some proposals designed to help the farmers are before the Department and I hope they will bear fruit. If they do, it will be to the advantage of those in the dairying industry. For years we have lagged behind other parts of the country, through no fault of our own, and I hope that in the near future our farmers will have the same outlets for their products as other areas enjoy.
Another problem in my constituency arises in connection with hill farming. As I understand it, policy in this regard has not been finalised by the EEC and there seems to be some conflict, first, as to what hill farming will be defined as and, secondly, as to what the products of hill farms will be. The sensible approach is to make the hill farms as productive as possible and if they are more productive, producing both sheep and cattle, then I would ask the Minister to make this demand in the EEC and indicate that such a policy would be the policy that suits our farmers best. It will be a tragedy for those of us living in hilly and mountainy areas if, by some unlucky chance, the EEC regulations support just the one product, sheep, to the exclusion of cattle. That would mean that farmers would not be able to develop their lands as they would like or get as much out of them as they should.
In these constituencies in the west many constituents live on these mountainsides. In the past I have emphasised time and time again the low quality of the lands. I have also raised the matter by way of Parliamentary question. I am not satisfied that sufficient has been done for these people. Time and time again it has been pointed out to me that these people would benefit by better housing, particularly winter housing. I have not seen any progress made in that particular direction. Going around to country houses, as I have to do in my position, particularly at this time of the year one feels sorry not alone for the people but for the animals as well; they have no dry place to put their feet. The Department really ought to give some attention to this problem. All the literature seems to suggest the importance of making full use of this land. If the people in these areas are to compete successfully with those in other areas, they must have all the help they need. I trust that when the Estimate is before the House next year there will no longer be any need for me to raise these matters.
Very little reference has been made to the pilot area scheme. I do not think it was mentioned by the Minister. I understood these areas were experimental areas and, as a result of trial and error, some experiments would be so successful they would spread all over the west. As far as I know, this has not been the evolution or, if it has, it has not happened in a way that can be recognised. Perhaps the small farm incentive bonus scheme emanated from a pilot area. It is a good scheme. I was hoping much more information would be available but, as far as I can see, the exercise does not seem to have been a success. Nevertheless, if you go to these areas, you will see signs of improvement and the best indication of that improvement is the fact that other areas are demanding the extension of the pilot area scheme to their parishes. I would ask the Minister to extend these areas into the kind of areas about which I have been speaking. It would mean a great deal to the people in them and it would in time increase their incomes.
The prospect is now that much of our agricultural policy will be decided in the EEC, in Brussels or Luxembourg and possibly other places. I canvassed for our entry into the EEC on the basis that it would benefit our farmers, but I am not so sure now that it will and, for that reason, I finish on the note on which I started. It behoves us in this House to support our Minister at all times in his proposals, no matter who that Minister is.
The Minister made his proposals to Brussels. He has consulted farming organisations and various interested bodies but he has not consulted the Members of this House. Where do we stand when those proposals come back from Brussels? Is this the final decision on them or will this House be in a position by amendment or by a majority vote or in any other way to change those proposals? If we are not, our powers in this matter are very limited. Nevertheless, the position seems to be that our entry into the EEC has improved the lot of our farmers. I welcome it and I hope this prosperity will continue.
I should like to congratulate the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary on the work they are doing. Coming from the west of Ireland and coming from the land we always take the opportunity of saying something on the Estimate for Agriculture and Fisheries. We feel more at home speaking on agriculture than in any other debate here. Farmers do not know very much about industry and, therefore, speak more freely on agriculture. Agriculture is our main industry and when agriculture is in a healthy condition the people are happy and contented. That has been very noticeable in the last few years. Our livestock prices soared, everybody had money and came home from fairs and marts satisfied that they had done well. We had that situation for the last few years. I do not think the position will be as rosy this winter because we had a bad season. We have quite an amount of bad fodder and feeding stuffs are very costly. Anything that can be done by the Minister and his Department to help the farming community over the winter will be appreciated. The prices of cattle are down a little but the important thing is that there is no standstill and that sales are good. Due to schemes such as the beef cattle incentive scheme, which is a great success, there has been a substantial increase in our livestock numbers. Everywhere you go, even in the poorer parts of my part of the country, you see great herds of cattle where heretofore there were only a limited number. The Minister, his Parliamentary Secretary and the Department in general, should take a good look at what is facing the farming community and try to relieve the burden on them. Feedingstuffs have reached the very high price of £5 per hundredweight. A hundredweight of nuts or of any feeding material is a very small amount and lasts a very short time. The money earned in the last few years will be used up in a very short time. However, I believe livestock prices will increase again when we get over the Christmas and things will sort themselves out as in the past.
We in the west of Ireland were told before we entered the EEC that special consideration would be given to underdeveloped areas. The whole of the west of Ireland is an underdeveloped area with small farming units, land neglected, a dwindling population and much to be desired so far as agriculture is concerned. That is what our Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries is fighting for when he makes a stand at the conference he attends on behalf of our farmers to get as much as he can for hill farming. This is where the money is required and if this is not done I can assure the Minister that the west of Ireland will not pick up. It could not possibly pick up if more money is not channelled into it, if more land is not given to the small farmers. The Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Department of Lands should work hand in hand because many farmers have been waiting for years to get additional land and through those two Departments coming together this could be arranged.
For many years we watched the flight from the land. Today everybody is becoming more interested in the land. A few years ago it was a matter of getting away at all costs and leaving only one or sometimes nobody with the parents. That has changed. In my part of the country and throughout the whole country there is a crying need for land. As public representatives, we are approached continuously on the question of additional land. That is a healthy sign because while there is that attitude among the people we know that they are prepared to remain on the land.
One aspect with which the Department should be concerned is that of part-time farming. This type of employment is very important in rural areas, particularly in the west where very often holdings are not large enough to provide a decent standard of living. There are a couple of growth centres in the west to which young men come to work from within a radius of about 20 miles. Because of this part-time work they can afford to have cars to take them to the centres and they are also able to supplement their farm incomes. This is an area that must be expanded by way of further industries. The two industries in Sligo are proving very successful and have resulted in giving a great boost to agriculture because of the part-time work available there.
Recently I tabled a question to the Minister in connection with the beef cattle incentive scheme but as it was not possible for me to be present when the reply was being given, I lost the opportunity of asking supplementary questions on the matter. At this stage I would like to thank the Minister for having extended the period in this regard for an extra six weeks so as to include a large number of people. However, we now have another problem and this is in relation to when the second inspection for calves and cows will be carried out. Grass has become scarce and many farmers wish to sell calves but they must wait, perhaps, until Christmas before the second inspection is carried out. Prices may be better by then but the condition of the animals will have disimproved. Therefore, I would urge the Minister to endeavour to have the second inspection carried out a little earlier so that people can arrange for the changing of their livestock. The number of people availing of this scheme has increased and I understand that the number of inspectors have been increased to some extent but there would seem to be a need for a greater number of inspectors. Some of the agricultural advisers who may not be very busy at this time of year might give a helping hand in regard to the inspections. It may be too late to make any changes in this regard during this season but I hope there will be some improvement next year.
Any injection of cash or any other form of help that has been given to the sheep industry has been appreciated greatly by those concerned and this year has been one of the best that sheep farmers have had for a long time. Wool has increased to about 35p a lb. A subsidy introduced by the former Government allows for the payment of £3 in respect of each ewe and £1.50 for each lamb. This has resulted in increasing the sheep population.
So far as the pig industry is concerned, it is now obvious that only those with very big units will be able to survive in this industry. Feedstuffs are very costly and this means that the small man will no longer be able to keep a few pigs. It is a pity that this should be so.
There is need for much development in the western counties. In my constituency of Sligo-Leitrim there are many uneconomic holdings. The high cost of fertilisers is a great burden on small farmers. Consequently, they are not able to dress their land as they would wish. Many of them have not got the mechanical aids for spreading fertilisers and, therefore, something needs to be done to help them in this regard. The small farm incentive scheme has been availed of to the maximum.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again.