Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Dec 1973

Vol. 269 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Electoral (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 1973: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Lemass

When we were discussing this matter last week, as a result of some interruptions made by the Minister for Local Government the tone of the debate accelerated and, indeed, there were some sharp exchanges across the House. I am aware that the speed of the exchanges was such as to prevent any stenographer from getting everything that was said. I am aware also that Ministers and Deputies have the privilege to go into the office of the Editor of Debates and edit their own contributions, but I am not aware that at any time can one Deputy or, indeed, a Minister, alter the contributions of other Deputies. On looking at the Official Report of last Wednesday, Volume 269, No. 5, 28th November, it appeared to me in particular that the references or the exchanges I had with Deputy Coogan, where I had insisted on a withdrawal of an inference he had made—the Deputy had the courtesy to rephrase his earlier remarks to my satisfaction—have not, I regret, appeared in the Official Report.

You know, Sir, I think probably what nettled the Minister was that I questioned his competence and ability and I will do that again today. I treat everybody in this House with courtesy and respect and I expect to be treated back in the same way. But if any Minister, any arrogant Minister, wishes to treat me in a different way I will give him more than he can give out, as indeed the Minister withdrew from the exchange with a very insulting and personally insulting remark when he realised he was not getting the better of the argument. I was making my contribution practically without interruption when the Minister pointed out that in his view he had to spend six months cleaning up the mess left by his predecessor and that is why we had the delay in seeing this particular Bill. But the Minister knows as well as I know, as well as every Deputy in this House knows, that he produced a Bill which was unacceptable, in the first instance to some of his own colleagues and certainly to his own Executive and then unacceptable, indeed, to the Parliamentary Secretary, who is sitting across, if my reports are correct, in certain facets, and the Bill had to be drafted and redrafted.

If I thought this Bill was the complete work of the Minister for Local Government I would urge our party to support it. The Minister has made so many decisions that have proved incorrect, he has been so anxious to make decisions without being properly briefed or without fully considering the implications, that if this Bill were his work it must be wrong for the present Government. However, it is not his Bill. I am aware that the Taoiseach consulted with some of his "whizz kids" and, as a result, we have a Fine Gael Bill introduced by a Labour Minister.

I have gone through the Bill, constituency by constituency. With the sole exception of the amazing exercise of putting Ennis with Galway in the hope of electing Senator Higgins, there is not one prospect I can see of any extra Labour seats being acquired in the next general election, regardless of whatever way public opinion may swing at that time.

I admit the Minister has carefully put an extra seat in his own constituency to protect himself and also that he has put one in Waterford to protect the party chairman, Deputy Tom Kyne. If there are seats to be won by the Government in the next general election as a result of this Bill, working on the statistical facts available from the last and previous general elections, they will be won by Fine Gael not by Labour. The one exception is the extraordinary exercise of putting Ennis in with Galway, in the interest apparently of the Senator in that area.

Referring to the debate last week, I expressed the view that I had no objection whatever to the introduction of three-seat constituencies in Dublin. Indeed, I have expressed the view since the first referendum was defeated that we should maximise the three-seat constituency situation throughout the country. I believe in the system of single-seat constituencies. The next nearest thing to letting proportional representation work as it should, namely enabling a government to be elected, to be formed and to govern, is a three-seat constituency situation. Admittedly there may be some exceptions to that but we should maximise the three-seat constituency situation. In that event, depending on public opinion at the time, one side will get two seats and the other side will get one seat if the general trend throughout the country is the same. That means that a government will be elected with a reasonably comfortable majority and will be able to put their programme into effect without compromising, perhaps, with Independent support.

I do not know how Fianna Fáil got an overall majority in 1933 because at that time there were two nine-seaters. As I pointed out last week, in the townships in Dublin South there were seven seats, of which Fianna Fáil got five. I should like to quote the following because the Minister's interruption is very interesting. At the time Deputy Cluskey was sitting opposite me. At column 689 of the Official Report dated 28th November, 1973 I said:

As the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Welfare will remember, there was a seven-seat constituency in his area and on one occasion Fianna Fáil elected five out of the seven Deputies and, indeed, it was on my late father's surplus that Jim Larkin was elected.

Mr. Tully: People became very intelligent since then.

I do not know if it was the Minister's intention to insult my late father or to insult Jim Larkin. Both these men are respected by the people in Dublin and I can assure the Minister if it was his intention to insult either of them it will not do him any good in the Dublin area. In the seven or nine-seat constituency situation it was an amazing achievement for any one party to get an overall majority. The smaller constituencies we have now are far more workable.

I should like to refer briefly to the exchange between Deputy Coogan and myself. When I named the Dublin-based Ministers in the present Government, as the Deputy always seems to object to anybody with what he calls "Jackeen" associations some names were left out such as the Minister for Education, Deputy Burke, and the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, Deputy Clinton. As Dublin is expanding at the moment, I suppose we can call the Minister for Local Government, Deputy Tully, a "Jackeen", if not now then in the very near future.

When Deputy Blaney was Minister for Local Government I asked him to do only one small thing. Some cumainn in my constituency bought a house; I told the Minister to do what he liked but I asked him to leave the house in the constituency. Of course he did not do that. Any Ministers with whom I have been associated in constituency revisions have said that what might suit me might not necessarily suit Deputy Briscoe, or Deputy Dowling as the case might be. Except in broad outline, the details of all Bills in connection with constituency revisions are largely the work of statisticians, mathematicians and officials in the Department of Local Government. With the exception of a few very obvious points, I find little objection to the Bill. However, there are some very obvious matters that stick out like a sore thumb and they make the Bill objectionable.

I should like to quote the Minister when he was in opposition. At column 1817 of the Official Report dated 4th December, 1968, he said:

I do not care what any Member of the House says, I have a personal view on this. I believe that county boundaries are important just as I believe that the national boundary is important and I would not agree that somebody who lives in County Meath would be happy being attached to another county... I do not agree, therefore, that county boundaries should be sundered. The Minister has a sin to answer for.

At column 1986 of the Official Report dated 15th November, 1973, the Minister said:

It is particularly desirable that the historic county boundaries should be preserved as far as possible and that natural communities should not be divided between different constituencies. In practice, these considerations may be incompatible with one another in certain cases and in such cases a choice must be made.

This brings me back to the Ennis-Galway position, the only effort I can see to bring in an extra Labour seat. What the Minister seems to forget is that in a three-seat situation in Dublin he is running a grave risk. Prior to the revision introduced by the then Minister, Mr. Boland, it was mostly a five-seat situation in the Dublin area. Not on the first occasion but in due course Fianna Fáil succeeded in electing three out of five and in one election when we dropped one of the three seats it was by a matter of four votes. I refer to the time Deputy Eugene Timmons was the victim of a long count.

Most of us were in Monaghan in the last four weeks. Most of us were probably in Mid-Cork and the extent of constituencies such as this was absolutely amazing to me, as a Dublin Deputy. I moved from one comhairle area to another. I had to drive 57 miles and I was not going from the extreme north to the extreme south. I am trying to figure out how a Deputy who is elected for a constituency—he is not elected only for a parish or a part of a constituency but he represents all the people in the constituency—can give service to these vast areas. Certainly the Minister has given no recognition to that problem. There has not been a by-election in County Meath that I can recollect. But how the Minister can put the county of Cavan and the county of Monaghan in together and make the constituency so much greater than the constituency we recently canvassed is something which I will never understand.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

Mr. Lemass

That is very nice. I thought they had all gone home or that the celebration party was still continuing.

Many of us in recent times will have had experience of the by-election, in Monaghan and in Mid-Cork.

Mr. Lalor

Is it not nice to be here to hear that?

Mr. Power

I thought they were all on retreat.

Acting Chairman

Whatever about the retreat, could we have a little advance on the Bill?

Mr. Lemass

As I was trying to explain. Monaghan was a three-seat constituency. On one Friday I was asked to move from Monaghan town down to Nobber. It was something over 50 miles, which means that the constituency was something like 60 miles long. This is a three-seat constituency. What is it going to be like as a five-seat constituency? How is the Deputy in Cavan going to make proper representations and keep proper contact with the people in north Monaghan?

Mr. G. Lynch

They can divide it between the three lads there.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy need not be too unhappy about this. Three of the seats will be Fianna Fáil seats.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Lemass

There is no danger at all about that. For the Deputy's benefit, as you will recall, Sir, I was recommending that we should maximise on three-seat constituencies all over so that when the people were giving a decision they could give a clearcut, firm decision on whatever Government get in and they would get in with a clear majority and with a mandate and with sufficient strength to make sure they could be held responsible for all their policies and could implement them. This is what we do not get in very large constituency situations. As a Fianna Fáil Government on one occasion we were dependent on Independent support and we still lasted as long as two Coalitions. That day is still to come. We will have it in 1974-75. It is difficult for a Government to carry out a proper programme policy without a reasonable majority.

Mr. G. Lynch

No problem.

Mr. Lemass

I have an answer but I will not give it because the Deputy might mix me up with a gentleman from the other House.

Again, like the Ennis-Galway thing, this is an extraordinary thing. I was down in Mid-Cork and working in Douglas where they are very nice people. It is a very nice place and I enjoyed myself there. Douglas is traditionally a Fine Gael area, but now it is voting sensibly Fianna Fáil and we won it for the first time in history. When I had to go to the count I had to drive nearly half way across the country. As a four-seat constituency that was obviously too big and unwieldy. Now it will be a five-seat constituency going right around Cork city and a bit of Cork city has gone into it.

Mr. Begley

That was Kevin Boland's decision. Kevin Boland made it when the Deputy was there. That was a 1969 decision.

Mr. Lemass

Now it will be a five-seat constituency. Cork city has gone into it.

Mr. G. Lynch

Only for the by-elections Deputy Lemass would not know the country.

Mr. Lemass

Deputy G. Lynch is always very quick with smart remarks. He fails to notice that I am wearing the badge of the Irish Commercial Travellers' Confederation and I was in every town in this country before the Deputy got out of his own native Kerry.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Lemass

I was in Kerry before the Deputy saw a paved footpath.

Mr. G. Lynch

We did not wait in Kerry for Deputy Lemass to pave the footpaths of Kerry.

Acting Chairman

The Chair is waiting for Deputy Lemass to speak on the Electoral Bill.

Mr. Coughlan

And to give us common sense. That is what we are waiting for.

Acting Chairman

Other Deputies will have an opportunity of making their contributions later on.

Mr. Lemass

As I was saying, if I thought that this Bill was entirely the product of the Minister for Local Government I would vote for it because every decision that Minister has made since he has taken office was a mistake. It will be exposed as a mistake. I warned him about the mortgage rises last May and he bluffed it out and eventually he had to make a State subvention. I am still saying that the mortgage interest rates are pushing close to 14 per cent and they were only stalled because the Monaghan by-election was on. We will have the rise in January and the people who have SDA loans will know about it.

There is another peculiar thing which I came across, again relating back to Monaghan, where we have been quite recently. There are proposals by the Government to create three borders instead of the one we have now. This ten-mile joint policing zone—how will it fit into this Bill? Will the people on the north side of this "no-go" area vote on the south and will the people on the south vote in the north?

Mr. F. O'Brien

The Deputy is being mischievous now. That is a lie and the Deputy knows it.

Mr. Lemass

Not at all. This was published in the papers. I hope this is a Coalition kite, but it is certainly being flown.

Mr. F. O'Brien

We did not fly it. Ask the Independent newspaper about it.

Mr. Lemass

A good old Fine Gael newspaper. Anyway this is a matter the Minister should seriously consider. If this ten-mile no-man's-land situation comes about are these people to have no vote? Are they to elect their own government?

Mr. Begley

What is the Deputy quoting from?

Mr. Lemass

I am not quoting. I am paraphrasing.

Mr. Begley

Paraphrasing what?

Mr. Lemass

I am paraphrasing a general report in the newspapers. This is what I have been led to believe is the kite that is being flown by the Coalition. I hope it is a kite, because people will shoot it down, and if it is shot down, then this problem to which I refer will not arise. In the event of the Government proceeding with these proposals, what I am curious to know is where these people will be, what their constituency will be; will they be self-governing or what will the position be?

I should like to get on to Dublin, if I may, because in Dublin I see all that is good in the Bill. If we can gain, as we have done on many occasions, three seats out of five, we can certainly gain two out of three, and it will take only a very small change of public opinion, which is already starting and is very obvious in city areas.

Mr. McMahon

It started in Monaghan all right.

Mr. Lemass

I do not know how the price of feedstuffs counts with people, but I certainly know how the price of foodstuffs counts with people in Dublin city. In regard to the constituency of Kildare the Minister says at column 1986, Volume 268 of the Official Report of 15th November last:

It is particularly desirable that the historic county boundaries should be preserved as far as possible.

I have already given the quotation from the Minister when he was in opposition. Bearing that in mind I cannot understand why a constituency called Mid-Dublin and another called West-Dublin will require any parliamentary party that gains two seats in these areas to select one from the city and one from County Kildare. Both of these constituencies are the same. I know Mid-County goes into Wicklow rather than Kildare, but West County goes into Kildare. The Minister, when in Opposition, said at column 1817, Volume 237, of the Official Report of 4th December, 1968:

I do not care what any Member of the House says, I have a personal view on this and I believe that county boundaries are important, just as I believe the national boundary is important...

He has the audacity to state that belief and then present us with this when introducing this Bill. The worst example is the Ennis-Galway one, but here we shall have to have rural and urban people selected if we aspire to two seats in these constituencies, as of course we will do; our city area will be our rural area and our rural area will be our city area. There are many unusual things about this. I talked about West Galway; indeed, East Mayo and West Mayo seem peculiar to me as well.

Mr. Dowling

That is O'Brien's two Irelands; they got mixed up in them.

Mr. Lemass

As far as Deputy Nolan and I are concerned, while it will not be possible to elect two Fianna Fáil Deputies in every constituency, even without any change in the figures available to us for the last couple of elections, there are certainly at this time 18 out of 43 seats. But what I can tell the Minister and the Government without any fear of contradiction is that if they continue as they are doing there will be two-thirds of those 43 seats which will come to the Fianna Fáil Party when the people once again ask us to clear up the mess.

Mr. Power

Having studied this Bill and listened to and read some of the contributions on it, I am certain that no matter what decent motives the Minister credits to himself—and he must have had to search very hard for any decent motives for this type of Bill —it is an attempt to secure a proportion of the seats for the Labour and Fine Gael Parties that is much more than the votes of their supporters warrant.

When one looks at the map one sees the crooked, tortuous line, the butchering that went on, the unusual little snippets that were taken out here and there and the lack of any overall pattern in the framing of the constituencies. What I mean by an overall pattern is that there would appear to be a special policy for Dublin city and a different policy for Dublin city of Cork, and an extra special policy for the constituency of Meath; but the same policy was not applied to Wicklow. Any child could easily see through this and that it was political expediency and a desire to hold the reins of office that dictated these changes in the constituencies. There is no need for me to labour this fact when the Chief Whip of the Government Party has already admitted it.

When a previous Minister, the former Deputy Kevin Boland, was doing his job, the Opposition looked for an independent commission at that time. It is extraordinary that what they felt was so desirable then is not desirable now. Boland's so-called butchery would not hold a candle to Tully's trickery. The Tullymandering, the bisecting and the trisecting of my own constituency, beggars description.

Mr. Begley

Is it in order to refer to the Minister in such terms as "Tully's trickery"?

Acting Chairman

I think the Deputy should refer to the Minister.

Mr. Power

The Minister's trickery then. Would you think it in order for me to refer to it as "Tullymandering"?

Acting Chairman

Whether the Deputy should attribute trickery to the Minister or not, the Chair would prefer that he would not make such allegations.

Mr. Power

The Minister's bisecting and trisecting—I shall leave it at that—beggars description. The biggest difference I have seen between the carving up of the constituencies on this occasion and the carving up on the previous occasion is that Kevin Boland was prepared to take a chance. He gave himself a three-seater in South County Dublin and he was elected to the third seat on the eighth count. Boland's bravery contrasts very forcibly with the timidity of the present occupant of that office. The Minister, Deputy Tully, was very much afraid to take a chance. He had a three-seater in Meath; he has now made it a four-seater. He was afraid he might not be in the first three. He was lucky to be in third in 1969 and 1973. In our part of the country, if we have an each-way bet, bookies will pay out only on the first three; in certain big handicaps where there are a lot of runners you might get odds on the first four. Apparently the Minister had not much faith in his own ability for the next election, and so he made a fourth place.

With regard to the independent tribunal I believe, and I am not a party spokesman, this is my personal opinion, that this is the proper way to have this matter decided. I think that we in Fianna Fáil should make this one of the planks of our future policy to be enacted when we resume Government. I would certainly welcome this and Deputy Molloy has also indicated that he would welcome it. It is important that the people of Ireland should know that this offer has been made to the Minister. I am making it to him again now and asking him whether he is turning it down. It is important that the voters should know that an offer of an independent tribunal or commission was made and that it has been turned down.

What was so desirable when Deputy Tully was on this side of the House is no longer palatable to him since he gained ministerial status on the other side of the House. Of course, we can look upon this as just another broken promise and when one is in the habit of breaking one's promises one may adopt the attitude that one may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb. It is now evident to most clear-thinking people that these promises were merely political posturing, that they were motivated by greed and that the present Government were eaten up with the very vices they accused our Government of when we were in office. It is clear to me that these people, the people of all talents, are now shown up for what they are. They are just a sham as far as I am concerned and their short period in office has shown them up for what they are.

Deputy Lemass mentioned that the word "sacrosanct" was used in regard to county boundaries. That word should not be used because "sacrosanct" comes from the word "sacred" and it is clear from a cursory examination of these proposals that the word "sacred" does not enter into it because no county boundary is sacred. Look at Mid-Cork, a portion deep into the heart of Cork City now being added on to a very ungainly constituency. Look at Kildare, Wicklow and Clare. In fact, look anywhere on the map and you will see that boundaries have been breached. I do not think the Minister would fool anyone by the use of the word "sacrosanct". To me the use of that word is sacrilegious because no boundary is sacred.

The key to the Minister's attitude can be seen in his remarks during this Bill and in particular in his many interruptions. He was not content to tell us about the Bill and sit down and listen to our comments. He interrupted many times and he seemed to take delight in telling us all that no one personally dislikes the Bill. He seemed to lay great weight on the word "personally". I would ask the Minister why should personalities enter into this at all. Personalities should not enter into the carving up of constituencies. I know they did and very forcibly in the Minister's case but why should the Taoiseach's personal position be safeguarded in Dún Laoghaire/Rathdown? This attitude, to me, is political fawning at its worst, fawning on the boss. In the overall thinking on this Bill there must have been a thought in the Minister's mind as to what he could gain personally? That is political patronage at its worst and the fact that the Minister facilitated a Fine Gael Taoiseach indicates to me that he possibly would, as many people now think, feel much more at home with Fine Gael than he does with his former colleagues in Labour.

If the Minister wants to know about my personal feelings, I do not care what the Minister does about the constituency. I defy him to carve up Kildare and deprive me of my seat. I will get in in spite of him and Fine Gael and Labour and all the scalpels and long knives in the Custom House. I dislike the overall implications of the Minister's remarks, that he should be thinking personally at all. I notice that when the Minister interrupted Deputy Moore in the course of his contribution he said:

I am proud of my work. I think it is great. Fantastic.

Those were the words he used. One would expect that if the Minister got more opportunity from the Chair he possibly would have come up with that famous remark "I am the greatest" or, like the person to whom the phrase was first attributed, one could expect Minister Mohammed Tully to break into poetry. Perhaps this little piece of doggerel, with your indulgence, Sir, would be appropriate:

In '69 and '73

The last elected was Jimmy Tully And just in case he slips some more He gives Fianna Fáil two and he makes it four.

In Meath it is clear to me that party expediency played second fiddle to personal expediency. It is easy for anybody to see that we will get a second seat in Meath on the next occasion. It would appear that the Minister had no faith in his own ability and he is quite content to give us an extra seat there and let the rest of the country make up for his shortfall in County Meath.

When one examines this Bill I think the biggest single defect in it is that Dublin will decide in all future elections what the Government of the country will be. This, I suppose, is in keeping with a Coalition Government that is pickled with Dublin-based Minister, whether they are sweet pickles or sour pickles remains to be seen. From an industrtial viewpoint and from a population viewpoint Dublin is top heavy. The metropolitan area has far too big a population and it needs to be decentralised. I am told that one of the first signs of decay in a country is when the capital becomes too big. Dublin has at least two seats more than it should have. I would ask the Minister to explain why Celbridge, Maynooth and Leixlip were packed into Dublin and why two portions of Wicklow were clipped off and put into Dublin constituencies. I am confident that we, the rural people, deserve an extra seat in each and whatever constituency had the extra seat would not suffer thereby.

Why were 13 three-seaters established in the Dublin Metropolitan area? My belief is that that was done so that 47 per cent of the voters of the country in the Dublin area would, it is hoped, succeed in getting 33 per cent of the seats and that 25 per cent of the voters would get the same percentage of the seats, 33 per cent. However, as Deputy Lemass remarked, this might not work out as the mathematicians plan. Mathematicians' and Ministers' and mice's plans "gang aft agley" and even the best laid plans in this case will come unstuck, too, because Dublin voters are much more fiickle than their conservative rural brethren and the expected one Labour, one Fine Gael and one Fianna Fáil return in each of the three-seat constituencies in Dublin will not materialise.

Assuming that those people within the Minister's party who do not agree with him will decide to vote for this Bill, the Minister will find at the next election that the minds of the people cannot be manipulated as easily as can county boundaries. He will have no control over the votes of people when they go to the booths. In the tricky three-seater situation in Dublin many of the Minister's Labour, or should I say Coalition colleagues—although one wonders about the order of preference after the rather passive role of the Assistant Whip yesterday when Deputy Toal was introduced to the House—will rue the day that this Bill was passed.

One aspect of the Minister's proposals with which I agree is the decision to have 148 Deputies returned to this House. No doubt the four extra Deputies will warrant the small amount of extra expense involved. I am convinced that a Deputy from any party is a help to any constituency: if he were not, he would not be in office for very long.

From the point of view of Kildare the Minister's proposals are very disconcerting. The county of Kildare is a growing and developing area. Before the last change, with the aid of a portion of Meath and of Westmeath, ours was a four-seat constituency but after the last change it was reduced to a three-seater. The portion of a rural area near Carbury was transferred to Meath for election purposes. We find now that, despite the growth in our population, it is proposed to retain the constituency as a three-seater and that a built-up portion in the Kilcock area is being transferred to Meath while a small rural area is being given back to us from the former Meath constituency and also that a big chunk of north Kildare—Celbridge, Maynooth and Leixlip—is now being transferred to Dublin.

With the exception of the metropolitan area, Kildare has the highest growth rate in the country. Our population is greater than that of Meath, and for that reason alone we should have been one of the counties to receive an increase of one seat. At the time of the last revision the population of Meath was slightly more than that of Kildare. Possibly that would have swayed the issue in deciding to give three seats to Kildare and four to Meath before the 1969 election; but on this occasion we have the greater population and, consequently, should have had a claim to a fourth seat.

Kildare was tri-sected to make it a three-seater. One would wonder why that should have been done, but it is no more than an example of the personal tone that is evident in all the Minister's plans. The reason why Kildare is being divided in this way— portion of it being given to Meath and another portion to West County Dublin—is to ensure that Mr. Terry Boylan would no longer pose a threat so far as votes are concerned. In order to do this the portion of Kildare that must be cut off would possibly have given a Fianna Fáil nominee a secure base in any new constituency. Consequently, it was decided to give portion of the constituency to Meath and another portion to Dublin. Even in the case of Celbridge parish it was decided to divide that parish so that the Straffan portion would remain in Kildare and the Celbridge portion would go to West County Dublin. This was done with the intention of helping the Labour Party, or perhaps, a stag party might be more appropriate. My colleague, Deputy Bermingham on the opposite benches will know what I mean.

It is difficult to understand why a portion of Kildare that was necessary to give Meath four seats some years ago could now be given back to Kildare while Kilcock and another portion of Kildare is being given to Meath. The desired result of this effort is to ensure that Mr. Boylan's base will be such as not to have a significant bearing on his new Dublin constituency. Enough butchering has been done to deprive him of a seat in Kildare. I am amazed that the Minister should have considered the Labour Party to be so vulnerable. Indeed, the Minister's action is no compliment to Deputy Bermingham. He must not have much faith in the good work that Deputy Bermingham is doing in the constituency. The only difference I see between the Minister's actions regarding Leinster and Cromwell's action in relation to the whole country is that while Cromwell said "To hell or to Connacht", the Minister, to give him his due, gave Kildare people a choice in that they could go either to hell or to Meath or Dublin.

I have some interesting figures here regarding Kildare. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would convey them to the Minister. These figures show the decline in population which occurred in that county between the years 1841 and 1971. In 1841 Kildare county had a population of 114,488 persons. It is interesting to note that in the same year Dublin, which comprised the county and county borough, had only 372,733 persons. At that stage Dublin was hardly three times bigger than Kildare but in the meantime the population of Dublin has increased every year, or at least for every year in which a census was taken, and the figure for 1971 was 852,219. Kildare's population dwindled consistently every year from 1841 to 1936 when the population was 57,892. Perhaps it is significant that in 1936 the policies pursued by the then new Fianna Fáil Government who had only taken office a short time before began to have effect and on upward spiral began in Kildare at that time. There was a slight decrease from 1951 to 1961, the population being a little more than 66,000 in 1951 and a little more than 64,000 in 1961 but the figure has increased every year since and at the last census our population was 71,977 so that there were 5,500 more people in Kildare in 1971 than there were in 1966.

The Minister has decided to put into other constituencies the areas of our county in which there was the greatest growth rate. The people of Kildare will not be very happy about that. At the time of the Normans the Fitzgerald family established Kildare as their base, erecting a castle in Maynooth and another at Kilkea and they decided on the boundaries of Kildare. These boundaries remained unchanged from the time of the Great Earls and the time of the halycon days of the Geraldines but the Minister has changed that. He might as well go the whole hog and change the name of Leinster House, the town residence of the Fitzgeralds, and of Kildare Street to West Dublin House and West Dublin Street from now on. With very little help we would have had the population to warrant four seats. Our county boundaries demanded that. If the remarks which are credited to him when matters like this were being discussed mean anything, he should have given Kildare back to the Kildare people. We deserve another voice in the Dáil; we are entitled to that. I know the people in the Carbery and other areas would prefer to be in a Kildare constituency. The Minister should apply to Kildare the same guidelines he applied to his constituency.

When this Bill is discussed and analysed the people will not thank the Minister for giving Dublin a say out of all proportion to its size. That is the Bill's biggest defect. The Minister is denying rural areas the representation they deserve, not alone from a population point of view but also because of geographical factors. Rural constituencies are much more unwiedly than city constituencies. Local people must travel long distances in order to maintain contact with their Deputies. For that reason I feel Kildare deserves an extra seat. Dublin could easily have been restructured. The two seats which were given to the metropolitan area could have been given to Kildare and Wicklow. Regretfully, I am confident that the Kildare voters in the Meath and Dublin constituencies will not be of sufficient number to succeed in electing a Kildare man. Two divisions saw to that. As we know from experience, political loyalties do not pass over county boundaries. People now in Kildare will not feel properly represented in the metropolitan area.

A name will often succeed in electing a person to a Dublin constituency. I do not know what criteria the city voters use when electing representatives, but many people are elected who would not be in the first three in a rural constituency. If the Minister cannot change the Bill at this stage, and he must persist with three seats in Kildare, why does he not apply the same test to Meath? Why should he show the white feather with regard to Meath? He should take a chance on his re-election. He should be confident in the fact that he is a Minister and in the news every day. He is seen opening new housing estates and so on and taking credit for them. He directs operations from his lofty eyrie in the Customs House. He should not be afraid that the people of Meath will not think the world of him at the next election and return him to a three-seat constituency. If he wants to cover up the skullduggery he hopes to enact in this Bill he should show an overall pattern. Why should he have three-seaters in Dublin and a five-seater in Cork? Why take a chunk out of Cork City and put it into Mid-Cork? My only remark on the carving up of Mid-Cork is that after the next election the Minister will be wise after the event.

This Bill will have far-reaching effects on politics. It is sad to think that the Minister will be remembered for this Bill and this Bill alone; a Minister who kept his seat while everyone about him was losing his. The Minister should feel ashamed of himself, if he has any sense of shame. It is evident in every carve-up that it is political patronage at its most vile; it is party advantage carried to extremes that nobody could defend, and, worst of all, it is his personal salvation ensured to the extent of giving us a seat. It is no wonder it took the Minister so long to produce this shameful sham.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

This is the first time I have addressed the House on an Electoral (Amendment) Bill. With no disrespect to the Parliamentary Secretary, I am sorry the Minister is not here to hear my comments. We have all been waiting for this Bill which was promised and expected since the election last February. Any time the Minister was asked a question he smiled or laughed and said that the Bill was coming. One expected it to be a wonderful production for which the Minister would be remembered and that it would follow the lines he had preached for so long in Opposition while adopting a holier-than-thou attitude. In the early summer he promised to have the Bill ready in July. Of course, the Minister was not able to keep that promise, like many other promises. We are all aware of the reasons why he could not do so. There was in-fighting between the two parties forming the Coalition. Members of these parties, who had been so long in Opposition, were determined that they would introduce a Bill which would keep the Coalition Government in power for at least another term of office. Despite the Minister's confidence in his own ability, I do not think that even a man far superior in ability would have been able to introduce a Bill to achieve this because many mistakes have been made up to now. However, he has tried, and tried to the best of his ability.

One striking aspect of the Bill is its inconsistencies. The influence of the two parties is obvious from the document before us. It reminds me of a chunk of wood which was round at the beginning but when each member had finished chipping and adding, it had become a very peculiar shape. When the last Bill was introduced somebody described it as a "Bolander"; this could be described as a "Tullyar".

Mr. Power

Tulyar was not much good. They sold him to America.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

He did well for a considerable period and then failed the acid test.

Mr. McMahon

Is the Deputy speaking about the Leader of the Opposition, Deputy Lynch?

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

No. We are talking about the Minister for Local Government, Deputy Tully. Obviously this man let his imagination run away with him in very many areas.

Mr. Dowling

What about the mongrel foxes?

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

I was coming to that point because there was a lot of biting done in Cork and I think the mongrel foxes played a big part. I offer my sincere sympathy to the Minister because, despite his faults and despite the complaints and criticisms we will voice of him, I accept that he is a hard-working Minister and that he is determined to do his job to the best of his ability. I am sorry that this production is so definitely designed to gerrymander the constituencies to give him the result he and his Government would like to see. The mistake they are all making is that they are forgetting that the people of Ireland are very sensible when it comes to voting, and they will give this Bill their answer at the first available opportunity.

The Minister will have many worries between now and the next general election. He will worry about the eventual result of the election. He will worry about how many seats his Government will get. He will also worry about how many seats his own party will get. Therein lies the crunch. This is where the Minister will be regarded as having failed the Labour Party throughout the length and breath of the country. This will be proved to him in the next general election. It will react on him and on his party in a very unfavourable way when the opportunity arises.

I suppose we are all parochial on a Bill such as this. There are areas with which we are familiar and there are areas we do not know so well. To those of us who do not know the area so well, it seems a bit peculiar to see a big chunk of Clare added to West Galway. I wonder did the Minister forget the promise he made to keep the county boundaries intact so far as possible. That one went a bit lobsided on him. We all know why that constituency is being so framed. Deputy Power has already mentioned his own constituency. A Minister who sat in Opposition for so long, and adopted a holier-than-thou attitude, and talked about how he would treat such a Bill if he were given the opportunity, should have set an example instead of entrenching his own position and perhaps upsetting the position of some of his colleagues.

This is typical of the Government. I am glad the Parliamentary Secretary is here because he is a Munster man. He is one of the few men from outside the Greater Dublin area in the Government. This Bill is giving more power to the metropolitan area and this gives people down the country reasonable grounds for criticism. It is worth looking at the situation in Cork. Cork City has six seats under the existing arrangement. The Minister has now seen fit to downgrade Cork City and to reduce its representation in the city, as such, by one seat. The people of Cork will remember that for the Minister. They will look at Dublin and see that he gave Dublin all three seat constituencies with the exception of the Taoiseach's constituency. That is an interesting one and I will come back to it later.

The Minister decided that he would reduce the representation in Cork, the second largest city in Ireland, by one seat. Naturally the first question everybody must ask is: why? Why should the Minister look at Cork and decide to reduce Cork City by one seat and give that seat to Mid-Cork? This is one of the jokes in this Bill. When the previous Electoral Amendment Bill was introduced the constituency of Mid-Cork got most of the criticism from the Opposition at that time. It was referred to as a monstrosity. It was referred to as a constituency that crawled almost from Cork City Hall out to the county boundaries of Kerry and Limerick. It was suggested that it was an impossible constituency to work.

While agreeing that it is a very big constituency, I think the four representatives from that area would not say that it is impossible to work, nor could the people say they did not work hard enough for them. The joke is that now, when these people who spoke so loudly, so strongly and so clearly about Mid-Cork are in office, approximately 15,000 voters from Cork City have been added on to make Mid-Cork a five-seater. If you look at this area which has been added on to Mid-Cork you will discover that included in it are some of the older parts of Cork City, traditional old areas. I refer specifically to Bandon Road and The Lough, to places like Gillabbey and Togher. I cannot say when University College, Cork, was built but it is no longer in the Cork City constituency.

The voters of these areas are included in Mid-Cork and we welcome them. We welcome working for them but I do not think it is sensible to think that the same type of representation can represent some of the older areas of Cork City and some of the outlying rural areas. Obviously this was done with a purpose and this is where I think the mongrel foxes bit the deepest. The people of Cork will not blame the Minister to the same extent as they will blame the Minister for Transport and Power for their own city. As a Government Minister from that city, he would have been expected to show a greater regard for the people of Cork and for the area of Cork generally. Obviously he used his influence and his powers of persuasion on the Minister to have this constituency divided in the way it has been divided. This is very interesting. I am sorry the Minister is not here so that I could tell him a few things.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

It is significant that the areas coming into Mid-Cork are the Labour areas of the city. They are traditionally Cork City, having long links with Cork City. As I said, we welcome these areas; we welcome the voters in them and we will certainly work in their interests. Nevertheless, this change is really a tragedy. It is something that will not be forgotten for the Minister when it comes to facing the people. The Minister for Transport and Power must share most of the blame because it is obvious his powers of persuasion on the Minister for Local Government exercised a strong influence on the Minister's final decision. It may interest the Minister to know that his own party members in the city are most disappointed because of the areas which have been taken out of Mid-Cork. Blackrock and Douglas were in Mid-Cork at one stage, but they were not moved out because that would not have suited the Minister for Transport and Power. This addition has a specific purpose behind it. The Minister has let down his own party in dividing Cork City. Again we have the inconstituency of a five-seat constituency in Cork City, a five-seat constituency in Mid-Cork and the city of Dublin carrying mainly three-seat constituencies.

In the debate on the last Electoral (Amendment) Bill in 1968, at column 1725 of Volume 238, Deputy Barrett, the predecessor of the present Minister for Transport and Power, referred to the unfairness of having residents in Blackrock and Douglas within a quarter and half mile of Cork City Hall having to depend for their representation on rural Deputies living throughout the county. What was true of Blackrock and Douglas then is equally true now of Ballyphehane, Gillabbey, Bandon Road and the Lough. The argument used then by Deputy Barrett applies with equal force today. It is, of course, a question of designing an area to try to help the present Government.

I have a message to give the Minister: the reconstructed Cork City and Mid-Cork will give us in Fianna Fáil the very same representation as we now hold in the next general election and the Minister's party in the city will not forgive him for the way in which he has treated them, considering he had an opportunity of winning a seat there.

Mr. L. Belton

Then the Deputy has nothing to complain about.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

I do not look on this matter personally. I look at the overall situation. That is the way we should all look at it. It would be foolish of me to say I have a personal complaint because my personal complaint is not important in the long run. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach is in the House at the moment and he was one of the people that publicly stated on very many occasions that electroal amendments should not be made by a Minister for Local Government or by the Government but that a commission should be set up for this purpose. Now that he and the others with him have the opportunity of trying desperately to hold on to power against the will of the people——

Mr. L. Belton

What about Monaghan?

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

That was a victory for the Opposition, not for the Government.

Mr. Power

The Government parties were depending on Kevin Boland's votes to get them in.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach (Mr. Kelly)

Fianna Fáil would have turned up their noses at Kevin Boland's votes, would they?

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

The holier-than-thou man is now in power and he is using that power to protect his own interests, to hold on to power, to keep his Government in power, but the people of Ireland——

Mr. Kelly

Not only did Fianna Fáil have the chance but they failed to make the change when they had the chance.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

Would you bring the Parliamentary Secretary to order, Sir? He has an unfortunate habit of interrupting. This is the first electoral Bill since I came into this House. It is a sore disappointment. I am disappointed that the Minister designed what he regards as a Bill to keep his Government in power. I am disappointed that he should have yielded to the pressure put on him by both parties and the in-fighting which was known all over this House, the in-fighting that went on for months and delayed the Bill for months, with Senator John Mannion and others putting in their spoke in regard to the townlands they wanted in their constituencies. When the parties opposite were in Opposition they stood in these benches and preached about what should be done and what they would do if given the opportunity but, when given the opportunity, this is what they produce. As I said, this is the "Tullyar" which fell at the final fence. In the next general election the Minister and the Government will have many worries about how many seats they will win. I have a message for the Minister: the people at the grassroots level of his own party are not happy and the Members opposite will be less happy when the general election is over.

Mr. Hussey

One of the things that strikes me most in this debate is the failure of the Government parties to offer any speakers. I wonder why this should be.

Mr. Dowling

They are completely disgusted with the Bill.

Mr. Coogan

The Deputy's party is losing power every minute.

Mr. Hussey

I am surprised at this because this is the first piece of legislation the National Coalition Government have introduced since they came to power last March. I had hoped that, as it was one of the most important pieces of legislation this year, we would have had constructive contributions from the Government side of the House. Unfortunately, this has not been the case and, as we have seen this afternoon, all the speakers who have offered are from the Fianna Fáil side.

Mr. Kelly

They are trying to waste time and hold up the business of this House.

Mr. Hussey

Then maybe it is a waste of time for the Members on this side of the House to talk on this Bill.

Mr. Dowling

Therefore, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach does not consider this to be important legislation.

Mr. Kelly

It is the fifth day that we have had the Second Stage of this Bill.

Mr. Dowling

That shows the importance of the Bill.

Mr. Hussey

The only conclusion that I can come to is that the Minister for Local Government consulted with all of his Deputies before the introduced this Bill and that they are happy with what has been presented to this House. I am surprised at this and, in particular, I am surprised at the Deputies from the west of Ireland. Under this Bill the west of Ireland will lose two seats. I cannot understand why the Fine Gael Deputies from the west of Ireland accepted this. There is no point in them saying that they had not been consulted about it or that they did not know about it because everybody knows that for a few months previous to the introduction of this Bill they had the soles of their shoes worn going in and out to the Minister for Local Government in an effort to carve up their own constituencies to suit themselves.

This is a fact particularly in relation to County Galway which, under this Bill, will be divided into two four-seats constituencies. It is obvious that a seat will be lost in County Galway. This is unfortunate. I know we cannot blame the Minister for juggling the constituencies in an effort to get the most out of them for his own political end. This had been done before. However, it is unfortunate that the west of Ireland, over which so many crocodile tears have been shed, should be deprived of two voices in this House.

We know that when the Taoiseach was appointing his Ministers he almost forgot the west of Ireland. All he gave to the entire western region was one Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. Kelly

The Leader of the Opposition dropped three western men from the front bench.

Mr. Dowling

He is giving the other fellow a chance.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Hussey

Deputy Donnellan need not talk because we know that when the Cabinet was being formed he took a train trip to Dublin.

Mr. Donnellan

I usually drive.

Mr. Hussey

The news was that Deputy Donnellan travelled by train because he expected to have a car coming home. I am sorry for the Deputy that this did not happen.

Mr. Dowling

The Deputy was on a one-way ticket.

Mr. Hussey

The Taoiseach at that time forgot about the west of Ireland and now the Minister for Local Government sees fit to deprive us of two voices in the House.

Mr. Donnellan

And one of those voices will be that of the Deputy. Then the Deputy will be in possession of the one-way ticket.

Mr. Hussey

That will be decided by the people of North-East Galway. As long as the people of that constituency want me I will represent them. I have no fear about this division because if I do my duty for my constituents they will return me along with Deputy Donnellan, I suppose. Deputy Donnellan has made sure of consolidating his position in Galway and he cannot be blamed for that, but every Deputy should be concerned about the fact that the west has lost two voices in this House.

Mr. Donnellan

What would the Deputy's plan be in relation to this?

Mr. Hussey

I am not the Minister for Local Government and I have no intention of intimating what my plan would be.

Mr. Donnellan

The Deputy has criticised the proposals of the Minister without having any of his own.

Mr. Hussey

If the Minister went according to the figures of the last census there was no reason for him to alter the position in the west.

Mr. Kelly

The west lost 40,000 people under Fianna Fáil.

Mr. Hussey

There is no reason, according to the figures of the last census, why the west of Ireland should have lost two Deputies. That is my sole complaint. I am not speaking at all about the way the constituencies have been divided but about the loss of two seats to the west. This is something that should concern those representing that area of the country. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach has admitted that the population in the west was sufficient to elect 30 Deputies as has happened in the past. That cannot be denied. Of course, in order to copper-fasten the position of the National Coalition——

Mr. Donnellan

That is incorrect.

Mr. Hussey

——and to keep them in power——

Mr. Donnellan

The National Coalition got into power on a Bill drawn up by a former Fianna Fáil Minister, ex-Deputy Boland.

Mr. Hussey

Could the Deputy then explain to me why it was necessary to butcher the constituencies in such a fashion as the Minister for Local Government has done now?

Mr. Kelly

And we were described as being the worst in the world for taking votes from Fianna Fáil in the last election.

Mr. Donnellan

I do not see why Deputy Hussey or other Deputies on the Fianna Fáil side are complaining because it is the first time that a Government other than a Fianna Fáil Government has had an opportunity to redraw the constituencies. Fianna Fáil are now shedding crocodile tears. They should take their medicine.

Mr. Hussey

We are not shedding crocodile tears. If the Deputy refers to the statements made by Fine Gael and Labour Members when in Opposition he will see the extent of the crocodile tears they shed.

Mr. Dowling

Does Deputy Donnellan wish to speak?

Mr. Hussey

Deputy Donnellan is free to speak on this Bill and I will not interrupt him. I feel certain that he will speak in protest against this injustice. Making the Dublin constituencies three-seaters is an attempt to strengthen the Labour representation in Dublin. However, I do not believe this will happen because if the present swing against the Government continues it will lead to a change of Government.

In my view the most important thing is that in the west of Ireland it takes more people to elect a Deputy than it does in Dublin. This is a grave injustice against the west and it should not be allowed to happen. I should like to protest again against the Minister's action in reducing the representation of the west of Ireland by two Members. This is the greatest injustice that has been done to the west but the people there will remember it at election time.

Mr. Dowling

If any Member on the Government backbenches wishes to speak I will give way.

Mr. Kelly

Has Deputy Dowling spoken on this Bill already?

Mr. Dowling

No.

Mr. Power

Deputy Dowling is playing such a "blinder" that the Government side think he is two men.

Mr. Dowling

This is a very important piece of legislation although the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach feels that a limited amount of time should be devoted to it. This legislation can manipulate the affairs of the nation for the next eight or nine years. This Bill, in my view, is a device to maintain power.

The people of the six north-eastern counties of this country must be very depressed to think that there is a Government here that sets out to do the same thing that they have been fighting against for many years. This Bill is an effort to gerrymander this section of the country. We are aware of the difficulties that exist in the North; we know of the trouble that resulted there due to the gerrymandering that took place over the years. I shall just quote the Minister for Foreign Affairs when he said, in an article printed in the Sunday Independent on 12th November, 1972, that for 50 years Unionist control of government in Northern Ireland was extended far beyond the areas where the Unionists secured a majority of votes. This, he said, was done by gerrymandering, by rigging the constituency boundaries in such a way as to convert a minority of votes into a majority of seats. Of course, we now have the riggers in Government here who will ensure that the area is gerrymandered. We should know by now the terrible tragedies that resulted from consistent gerrymandering over the years in another part of this country. No doubt the Unionists in the North will read this discussion with interest and see how the Fine Gael and Labour Parties have endeavoured to gerrymander the situation here. I am certain that they will say that should they come in here they will be subjected to the same treatment which is regarded as so undesirable in that part of the country. I am certain that the Northern community will be watching the situation here and we want to tell them now that this is a Bill to gerrymander this part of the country. It is a type of treatment they would possibly get under a Government such as we have here at present.

There will not be two parties, Fine Gael and Labour, contesting the next election. There will be only one party and this Bill is so devised that it will be for one party and one party in Opposition. We welcome the day when we shall meet on equal terms one party comprised of Fine Gael and Labour. An effort was made in Monaghan to establish that party. So, some members of the Labour Party were distrubed by some of the meetings which took place in Monaghan between Members of the Government and numbers of people in corners in order to bring about a position in which they would form one party. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach may not have been aware of this development but some Labour Party Members feel that their Ministers in this Coalition are losing their identity and are being absorbed into this great gerrymander machine that we see in action.

Mr. Kelly

If they had steered clear of the campaign the Deputy would have said they were not behind the Government.

Mr. Dowling

They participated in the campaign and they set in train a situation in which the workers of this city who supported Labour in the last election will have completely lost their identity because I am sure very few of them would support Fine Gael. The only party we shall have in the next election will be a combination of Fine Gael and Labour.

So long as Labour Party supporters are aware of what is happening at this early stage, that some of their people are now betraying them in order to assure themselves of Ministerial posts in a future Government should the people be foolish enough to re-elect them, I am certain that the collective wisdom of our people will give an answer to the present Government when the time comes. We have relied on that wisdom through the years and the people have responded in a responsible way on every occasion. Only on two occasions since 1932, other than the last occasion, did we have a change but never did either Fine Gael or Labour get a clear mandate from the electorate. When on the next occasion we have only the one Party we shall see how the people will feel.

This type of gerrymander and constituency rigging which the Minister for Foreign Affairs spoke about in his article is exactly what is happening here now. The Parliamentary Secretary cannot deny this and that this is an attempt to rig the constituencies. This is a fact that cannot be denied and I want to say that here and now so that people north, south, east and west fully understand it.

Mr. Kelly

Does the Deputy think we should have kept Mr. Boland's pattern of constituencies? What would he have said had we done that? Would we not be the laughing stock of the country?

Mr. Dowling

This is a deliberate attempt to gerrymander——

Mr. Kelly

It is an attempt to undo Mr. Boland's gerrymander——

Mr. Dowling

——and well the Parliamentary Secretary knows this. I am certain that the people in the North will be watching the situation here to see if a responsible Government will devise electoral areas to the satisfaction of the community as a whole. They now can see this Bill which is designed to do just the opposite. It is designed to do what a group of people were condemned for doing for so long and so violently in the six north-eastern counties.

I support the view of the Minister for Foreign Affairs when he spoke recently about the type of situation which evolved there. We do not want that here; we have no time for it and I am quite certain that in time the people here will give their answer. It is a question of how many seats that party will get. I do not know the names or even the form of the party. I am not sure if the Parliamentary Secretary will have a position in it but nevertheless there were Ministers who took part in discussions regarding the formation of a combined party of Fine Gael and Labour. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary knows about it.

Mr. Kelly

No, they left me out of that.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should direct his remarks to the Chair and not to the Parliamentary Secretary. In that way we might avoid interruptions.

Mr. Dowling

Through the Chair, I want to say that I am quite positive he was. He was up there and so I am sure he was familiar with the set-up. As many speakers have pointed out, we have, first, the Minister for Local Government who has apportioned his constituency in such a way that he must retain his seat, or so he hopes. He has added a further seat so that this upholstered constituency which had three seats will now have four. This is to make sure that he as a Minister will be re-elected. Again, the people will have their say.

Many Deputies have made the important point regarding the western problem, which is a very serious one. In Opposition members of the present Government shed many tears for the people of the west but the amazing fact is that when they came to power, as Deputy Hussey and others pointed out, not one Minister was appointed from the west of Ireland, showing their complete disregard for the west. But for the fact that it was mentioned here, when the Taoiseach had his Cabinet lined up, that he completely forgot the west, I am quite certain the Taoiseach would not even have appointed a Parliamentary Secretary who comes from west of the Shannon. We have a situation of complete disregard for the people of the west of Ireland.

Mr. Kelly

What about the three decent men from Mayo that Deputy Lynch dropped?

Mr. Dowling

There has been a complete disregard for the west but the people will give the Government their answer when the time comes. At column 2012 of the Official Report dated 15th November the following is stated:

Examples of this manipulation can be found in what has been done in Dublin. The proposed revision is North County Dublin, three seats, population 59,514; Dublin/Cabra, three seats, population 59,314 Dublin/Clontarf, three seats, population 58,592; Dublin North-Central three seats, population 58,357; Dublin South-East, three seats, population 57,875, making a total of 15 seats for a population of 293,652 persons. Compare that with the following constituencies in the West; Sligo-Leitrim, three seats, population 63,030; Roscommon-Leitrim, three seats, population 63,358; East Galway, four seats, population 83,176; Donegal, five seats, population 105,509, making a total of 15 seats for a population of 315,073 persons. In the Dublin area mentioned there is a total of 15 seats for 293,652 persons; in the western area mentioned there is a total of 315,073 for 15 seats. There is a difference of 21,421 persons. To elect 15 TDs in the five constituencies in Dublin you need 21,421 fewer people than it takes to elect a similar number of TDs in the Western constituencies.

A complete disregard for the west was shown in this electoral Bill—it might be called the "anti-west device" because it is designed to ensure that the population of the west will not get the same kind of representation as the people in the capital. During the years we have heard from the people on the Government benches that the west needs assistance. However, the Taoiseach disregarded it in the composition of his Cabinet and the Government are gerrymandering the constituencies to deprive people in the west of representation. One might ask what will be the Government's attitude in relation to western development in the future? Will the west get the same kind of treatment that is evident in this anti-west device and in the Taoiseach's appointment of personnel?

I sympathise with Deputy Hussey and other speakers from the west who spoke about their concern because their people will be deprived of adequate representation. In these scattered constituencies it is necessary and desirable that the tolerance should act in favour of them but it is obvious the Government do not believe that. This Bill was designed by the Minister for Local Government, who upholstered a seat for himself in his own constituency, because of the pressures placed on him to deprive the west. A group of Ministers and pressure groups in the city insisted that the west be further denuded not only of people but of representation.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

Mr. Dowling

I wish to sympathise with Deputies who spoke here about giving greater representation to the west. As I pointed out already, to elect 15 Deputies in the five constituencies in Dublin requires 21,421 fewer people than it takes to elect a similar number in the west, notwithstanding the fact that during the years the emphasis has been on greater representation from the west.

As I pointed out earlier, the Taoiseach did not think it worthwhile to appoint a Minister from the west and it was not until he was so prompted that he decided to appoint a Parliamentary Secretary. There has been a complete disregard by the Taoiseach, the Government and members of Fine Gael and Labour for the western constituencies. However, Fine Gael and Labour will not be together for long; as we saw in Monaghan there is only one party but they will get their answer from the workers of this city.

Mr. P. Belton

Is the Deputy worried about the Labour Party?

Mr. Dowling

There will be no Labour Party after the next election.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order. Deputy Dowling without interruption.

Mr. Dowling

Senior Ministers participated in talks in Monaghan with a view to forming one party. Some of them will now desert the people who support them but will get their answer.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Monaghan by-election is hardly relevant to this debate.

Mr. Dowling

Since this debate started there has been talk about every election, not just Monaghan, and also about future elections that will occur in the revised gerrymandered constituencies. The concern of Deputy Hussey and others from the western constituencies regarding the reduced representation is not shared by some Deputies. Some of those elected for constituencies in the west are deserting their supporters who sent them here time and again. Deputy Coogan and his friends will support this Bill to deprive their people of an additional voice in Dáil Éireann. We want to ensure that the people in that section of the country get the representation to which they are entitled. When the time comes no doubt Deputy Coogan will be forced into the lobby with other Members elected by the people in the west on the last occasion to deprive those people of this additional voice.

Mr. L. Belton

Does the Deputy think that Dublin is over-represented?

Mr. Dowling

They will give to Dublin city——

Mr. L. Belton

Is Dublin over-represented?

Mr. Dowling

It is.

Mr. L. Belton

Good man, Joe.

Mr. Dowling

I am aware of the in-fighting that went on in relation to the maintenance of seats by members of Fine Gael and the Labour Party and of the various pressure groups which are in existence and have been a prime pressure factor on the Minister for Local Government for the last six or 12 months. The Minister indicated on many occasions that the was ready to bring in the Bill the following week, but it went to the week after and the week after that again. It took a long period before he was allowed to bring the Bill to the House. We now have this long-awaited measure which will deprive the people in that section of the country of the representation to which they are entitled.

We know the in-fighting which took place at Government level in the Fine Gael Party rooms and in the Labour Party rooms in their efforts to gerrymander the nation just as it was gerrymandered in the six north-eastern counties over the years, as was commented on by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy FitzGerald. I agree with the statement made by the Minister for Foreign Affairs in relation to the corrupt practices and the rigging of constituency boundaries by a section of the people not so very far from here. They are looking down here tonight to see the same type of riggers—here in this House——

Mr. O'Brien

Rigor mortis.

Mr. Dowling

The people will have the deciding voice. We are not afraid to face the people.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

What about the mongrel foxes?

Mr. Dowling

There is only one Fianna Fáil Party.

Mr. L. Belton

Which one?

Mr. Dowling

We know the type they are. We know what happened last Christmas when the mongrel foxes turned on their leader and he said he would flush them out and let the pack deal with them. The bloodthirsty Taoiseach said that. Some of them are sitting here tonight. You are the people who were going to turn on him on that occasion.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is drawing fire on himself and is getting away from the Bill. I am advising the Deputy that he must confine himself to the Electroal Bill.

Mr. Coughlan

Look at the felon setters.

Mr. L. Belton

What about the Four Courts speech?

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

Order.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy G. Fitzgerald can leave the matter of procedure in the House to the Chair.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

Provided they are kept in order.

Mr. Dowling

As Deputy Belton was wondering about the Four Courts affair we will deal with that now.

An Ceann Comhairle

I must insist that interruptions cease and that the Deputy relate his remarks to the matter under debate. No interruptions please.

Mr. Dowling

In relation to the Electoral (Amendment) Bill—I want to put my notes in chronological order——

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair wants co-operation from Deputies.

Mr. Dowling

I can understand the confusion in the minds of the people who framed this Bill. Deputy O'Brien has spoken on many occasions.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Deputy referring to a Minister of this House?

Mr. Dowling

The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. This Minister has an influential voice in this House. He must have been instrumental in the formulation of this Bill. Naturally enough the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs must have confused the Minister for Local Government because when one reads through the various sections of this Bill one will notice how confused the Minister for Local Government was. Deputy O'Brien with his two Irelands——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister.

Mr. Dowling

I am sorry. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs with his two Irelands——

An Ceann Comhairle

That is quite irrelevant to the matter under discussion.

Mr. Dowling

He has confused everybody.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy please confine his remarks to the matter under discussion? I declare this matter out of order.

Mr. Dowling

Deputy O'Brien did state about the two Irelands——

An Ceann Comhairle

It has no relevance in this matter.

Mr. Dowling

He confused the Minister for Local Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy persists in going against the wishes of the Chair——

Mr. Dowling

I would be the last one in the House to do that. The Minister for Local Government is a very confused man. It is obvious that he needs geography lessons because the type of constituencies that have been set out and have been commented on by many Members is puzzling. Dublin is given part of Kildare and Wicklow. In Monaghan one finds parts of Louth and Meath.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

I insist on order.

Mr. Dowling

There is no amount of trick-o'-the-loopery which would put me off.

Mr. Coughlan

You are too used to it.

Mr. Reynolds

You are "off" anyway.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Dowling

If the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach said on occasion that one must forget about trick-o'-the-loopery I can use that expression. He mentioned it in his famous television appearance. Present members of the Government were operating on a trick-o'-the-loopery basis with trick-o'-the-loopery legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

Moderation of language would be helpful.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Dowling

They are the words of a famous man, Deputy John Kelly in his famous speech on television. I would not use bad language but I do not think that is bad language.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, order.

Mr. Coughlan

I was here long before you knew where this place was.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

Age is not on your side.

Mr. Coughlan

Vigour and tenacity are.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Dowling.

Mr. Dowling

I want to thank you, Sir, for your protection against these rude interruptions.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy ought not to invite them either.

Mr. Dowling

The Bill refers to the constituency of Cavan/Monaghan as being "the administrative county of Cavan; and the administrative county of Monaghan, except the part thereof which is comprised in the constituency of Louth." We have heard much about the breaching of the boundaries, the desirability of maintaining communities within their existing boundaries, but when we go down through this gerrymandering document that has been presented to the House we find the provisions introduced by the Minister are completely inconsistent with the views expressed by him in the past in relation to the breaching of existing boundaries. Under this Bill many people will be deprived of true representation in their own areas. The people are being siphoned off, just as they were——

Mr. Coogan

In Monaghan.

Mr. Dowling

——just as they were in the North, as explained very fully in an article in the Sunday Independent of 12th November by the Minister for Foreign Affairs.

Mr. Coogan

The Deputy would not quote that.

Mr. Dowling

I will quote it all right.

An Ceann Comhairle

We have already had the quotation.

Mr. Dowling

The Deputy wants it quoted. Just for the record——

An Ceann Comhairle

We have already had it. It is not necessary.

Mr. Dowling

The Deputy did not hear it.

Mr. Coogan

He might have read it.

Mr. Dowling

But he might not have read it.

An Ceann Comhairle

It may not be repeated.

Mr. Dowling

The present gerrymandering is taking place on the very same basis: the rigging of the constituency boundaries, and the gerrymandering that has caused so much suffering and so many problems to so many people not far from here. We hope the Minister and the Government will see sense and ensure that representation will be extended to the areas where there is the greatest need and that tolerance will operate in favour of people in those areas.

It is obvious from the Bill that the Government have completely deserted the western seaboard and that they will get the unanimous support of their backbenchers in that desertion. It will be interesting to see how many of the Deputies who represent western constituencies will go into the lobby and vote against this Bill, because by voting for it they are voting to reduce the representation in the constituencies that most deserve additional representation. Some of the constituencies have been dealt with here in detail by other speakers. I do not intend to dwell too long on other constituencies; I have dealt with the west to some extent. Paragraph 12 of the Explanatory Memorandum says:

Maps will be deposited shortly in the Oireachtas Library indicating the proposed constituencies.

The Minister has completely misled the House by giving erroneous information in the Bill or on the map, because the Bill is different from the map, especially in my constituency. I have not studied the other constituencies, because I have the map of my own constituency only. A completely different area is indicated in the Dublin-Ballyfermot area in the Bill as distinct from the map. I wonder is this a deliberate error, an attempt to mislead the House. A person might look at the map or read the Bill, because at all times the map would not be side by side with the Bill. This may be an effort to mislead the Attorney General, who would seem to be the person most likely to fall.

As regards the registers that are outlined, if the map is correct, then the Bill is wrong, and if the map is wrong, then other constituencies are wrong. I do not know how the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary will explain this away. I do not know whether it is deliberate, but I would be inclined to think it was deliberate. Taking into consideration the pressures that were on the Minister, he may have been confused, or if he was not confused then it was a deliberate act to mislead some Deputies who he felt might just look at the map and be satisfied with the division of their constituencies. I hope that by the time this Bill reaches Committee Stage the Minister will have rectified this situation and that the Attorney General, Deputy Declan Costello, will then be in full possession of the facts, because I understand he was a very worried man.

Mr. Reynolds

It is not usual for Attorneys General to know all the facts.

Mr. Dowling

You would imagine they would be the people who would know.

Mr. Reynolds

Not so long ago they did not know.

Mr. Dowling

The constituency was revised to suit him, and he got a bit of paper which gave a different picture.

Mr. Coughlan

The register has not been compiled yet.

Mr. Dowling

I want to protect the Attorney General from the vultures on that side of the House who are out to destroy him.

Mr. Reynolds

Protect the last Attorney General.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Could we come back to the Bill please? Deputy Andrews, I have asked for a good hearing for Deputy Dowling.

Mr. Dowling

It is obvious——

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

I am trying to secure order for the Deputy who is in possession.

Mr. Dowling

As I say, I want to protect the Attorney General. I understand he was a man who was bringing pressure to bear to maintain constituencies or areas where he might gain a seat. I want to inform him that if the Bill is correct he will lose his seat, and if the map is correct he will probably retain his seat. It is just to inform the gentleman that there is this knife brigade who are out to ensure that he is not re-elected, and they are doing it in this way. I want to draw it to his attention. I am sure that when he reads the Official Report and examines the map and the registers he will see how he was misled by Deputy Tully and Deputy Cosgrave and other people who told him they would give him a safe seat.

A great deal of in-fighting has gone on over the last six or eight months. There have been problems in the Labour Party and in Fine Gael over who would go, who would stay, who would be promoted, who would be demoted and who would be fixed up here and there should certain eventualities take place. No doubt they have made arrangements for every type of eventuality for some Deputies; other Deputies will be left to fend for themselves. It is common knowledge that certain Deputies will be facilitated by the Government before they go out of power because out of power they will go at the next election when the people get the opportunity to decide. However you endeavour to rig the constituencies, the people will become aware of this rigging in a short time. However you endeavour to deprive people of their just representation, the people will become aware of this and they will give their answer as they have done on so many occasions in the past. Deputy Coughlan is probably quite happy with the set up.

Mr. Coughlan

Deputy O'Malley is, anyway.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy ought not to invite interruptions.

Mr. Dowling

The in-fighting has resulted in the gerrymandering. I hope that Deputy Coogan and others who represent the west will have the courage to ensure that the people of the west get adequate representation.

Mr. Coogan

I have given it to them for 20 years.

Mr. Dowling

We will know whether they are sincere or not when the division bell rings and they are corralled into voting for the Bill in its present form or with some minor amendments. Do not underestimate the people. The Irish people are a very intelligent people and down through the years they have spoken loud and clear.

Mr. Coogan

In Monaghan.

Mr. Dowling

The Monaghan situation was not that bad. We gained votes in Monaghan.

Mr. Crowley

What about the national loan?

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please. Deputy Dowling.

Mr. Dowling

The confidence of the nation is shaken. The former Deputy Burke used to say that when they left office on one occasion there was not a bag of cement in the country. There will not be a pound in the country when you fellows get out. The national loan gave a fair indication——

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not relevant to the Electoral Bill.

Mr. Crowley

That is where the people have spoken, in the national loan.

Mr. Coughlan

The ballot box is where the people speak.

An Ceann Comhairle

I would be grateful if Deputy Crowley would not inject something the Chair has ruled out of order. The national loan does not come into this debate. Please do not try to inject it into it.

Mr. Crowley

Not very much came in in the national loan.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Crowley, please do not try to make a mockery of the ruling of the Chair.

Mr. Crowley

I did not, a Cheann Comhairle. I would be the last man to do that. I have too much respect for the Ceann Comhairle.

Mr. Coughlan

That is something strange.

Mr. Crowley

Even as a Deputy I had the greatest respect for Deputy Treacy.

Mr. Dowling

We look forward to the opportunity in the future of fighting an election and I have no doubt that whatever measures the Government take to manipulate the boundaries, to gerrymander or to rig, the people will give their answer in a very decisive way. As I said before——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy ought not to indulge in repetition. It is not in order.

Mr. Coughlan

Will he say whether he is a George Colley man or not?

Mr. Dowling

I am taking the Bill section by section in order to deal with it in greater depth. I was going to conclude but seeing that there is a demand for further explanation and that it is desirable that the public should be fully aware of the type of gerrymander that has taken place I will go through the Bill in some detail.

The amazing thing about this debate is that we have not heard the voices of the Fine Gael or Labour backbenchers. A silent service has operated over there. They have been told to sit quietly and not to speak. Not alone is a section of the country being deprived of representation but Deputies are being deprived of the opportunity to express their opinions in the House. That is the type of future to which we can look forward. While Deputy Coogan and Deputy Belton can interrupt——

Mr. Coogan

I spoke before the Deputy.

Mr. Dowling

If Deputy Coogan, Deputy Belton or Deputy Reynolds wish to speak now, I am prepared to sit down and allow them to make their contributions, if they are prepared to do so. You are under instructions not to speak.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Dowling, you are deliberately drawing interruptions by provocation and by addressing Members of the House rather than the Chair.

Mr. Coughlan

George Colley will chastise him.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Dowling

I wish to refer to the explanatory memorandum.

Mr. Coogan

Are you going to let us speak, Joe?

Mr. Dowling

I will let you speak all right. If there is any Government backbencher who wants to speak, I will give way to him.

Mr. L. Belton

Right. Sit down.

Mr. Dowling

If you are prepared to speak.

Mr. L. Belton

Yes.

Mr. Dowling

If you are prepared to speak, I will give way to you.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Deputy concluding his remarks then?

Deputy Andrews rose.

Mr. Dowling

None of them is getting up.

Mr. Coughlan

You sit down. You have concluded your remarks.

An Ceann Comhairle

I think, in fairness, there was an understanding in the matter.

Mr. L. Belton

I was interested to hear Deputy Dowling state that Dublin is over-represented. I hope the people of Dublin will understand this when it comes to the next election. He talks about gerrymandering. This Bill would be completely lost in the gerrymander that was carried out on the last occasion. Of course, we know the fate that befell the Fianna Fáil Minister who carried out the gerrymander. I challenge Deputy Dowling to tell us any peculiarity in the Dublin area which would compare with Clondalkin being in North County Dublin. He has endeavoured to make much capital of the Minister's decision to have three-seater constituencies in Dublin, but I would like to remind Fianna Fáil that it is not so very long ago since they, even at the expense of a referendum, endeavoured to create single-seat constituencies in Dublin.

Mr. Andrews

Supported by the Deputy's party leader.

Mr. L. Belton

Possibly, but opposed bitterly by many Members of Fianna Fáil. After the result of that referendum had been made known I heard the pro tem leader of the Opposition, Deputy Lynch, state that he was glad the people had spoken and had given their decision in no uncertain manner and that they had shown they wished for the retention of the PR system. It was not very long afterwards that Fianna Fáil proceeded to reduce practically every constituency in Ireland. As a result of the last gerrymander there were only two five-seaters in the country. If it is the position that larger constituencies are needed to ensure the most effective working of PR, one must congratulate the present Minister in that at least there are more five-seaters now than there were after the Fianna Fáil carve-up.

Mr. Crowley

There are many more three-seaters.

Mr. L. Belton

Fianna Fáil advocated the three-seater constituency in the west of Ireland when it suited them to do so. How many times have that party re-arranged constituencies? They say now that the Minister should have left the matter to a commission but despite all the opportunities they have had to do this they never before suggested a commission. Yet they tell us that we should take this step. I would remind them that in the past they despised every attempt by this party to have such a commission set up. Their change of heart stems from the answer they received in no uncertain terms in the recent by-election. They know that the people support fully the policy of the National Coalition and no amount of talk from the Opposition will succeed in disillusioning the people or in giving them the impression that this Minister has been less fair than was the Minister responsible for the last revision. The present Minister has been more fair than Mr. Boland was and has not breached as many county boundaries as were breached on the last occasion.

In the west of Ireland Fianna Fáil have a very slender majority over Fine Gael. So far as I am aware they have 11 seats in the entire west as against Fine Gael's ten. There is no point in Fianna Fáil shedding crocodile tears in regard to this Bill. Looking at the map of the proposed revision one can see that county boundaries look much more natural now than in the past. We will not have the ridiculous situation of Clondalkin and Newcastle being in North County Dublin with Balbriggan.

Mr. Walsh

What about Maynooth?

Mr. L. Belton

Maynooth is close to Dublin and, therefore, is being put into the West County Dublin constituency. Perhaps this might be a suitable constituency for Deputy Walsh at some stage.

Mr. Crowley

The Deputy was not thinking of himself.

Mr. Walsh

I shall answer for myself.

Mr. L. Belton

The Deputy asked me a question.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Walsh will be afforded the opportunity of speaking if he so wishes.

Mr. L. Belton

Fianna Fáil need have no worry about this Bill. It is a definite improvement on the last revision of constituencies Bill. People opposite can rest assured that the fate that befell Mr. Boland will never befall the present Minister.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. Andrews

The last speaker's contribution was a record in terms of the length of time he spent in making it, that was, some five or six minutes. However, that is an indication of the type of pressure that is being brought to bear on the Coalition cacophony, cackle, group or parties—call them what you will— by the Whip. Apparently they are not allowed even to interrupt Fianna Fáil speakers now. All this is indicative of the concern they have for this, probably one of the most infamous pieces of legislation ever proposed in this House. It is a gross piece of hypocrisy for the present group—the Government for the time being—to come here and produce this Bill having regard to what they said in relation to the revision of constituencies while they were in office.

Those of us who recall their opposition to the last electoral amendment Bill must be shocked to see them introduce the Bill now before us. The Dáil debates of that time are littered with statements about the propriety and probity of setting up independent commissions and about the matter of the breaching of county boundaries, which Deputy Belton spoke so glibly of, while in this instance county boundaries have been breached many times throughout the Bill.

It is my intention to refer to the constituency of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown to be known after the enacting of this Bill as the constituency of Dún Laoghaire. This constituency which happens to be the Taoiseach's, is being subjected to the most gross piece of gerrymandering ever to take place in the history of this State. This gerrymandering has been carried out to the extent that back gardens were syphoned off from the constituency to be put into the new constituency of South County Dublin. Indeed one might say that some garden sheds have not been missed in the proposed gerrymander. It is my intention, too, to place on the record of the House the piece of drafting which purports to bring about that gerrymandering. Apart from the drafting, the Bill is a lot of gobbledegook and is couched in complicated and confusing language. One can have nothing but the utmost contempt for the entire Bill.

The part of the Schedule which deals with the constituency of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown will be seen in its proper context when put on the record. I understand that, unless I place this Schedule on the records, it will not find its way into the report. I quote from page 6 of the Bill:

... commencing at the point where the centre line of Kilmacud Road Upper meets northern boundary of the district electoral division, then in a south-westerly direction along the centre of Kilmacud Road Upper to the point where is meets the imaginary north-westerly projection of the southern boundary of St. Joseph's Carmelite Monastery——

Mr. J. Kelly

It sounds beautiful.

Mr. Andrews

It does. The Deputy would know a little about this type of line drawing.

Mr. J. Kelly

Look at Dublin South-Central after the 1969 Act. The constituency I represent was defined in exactly that way.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Andrews.

Mr. Andrews

You are a party to that gerrymandering and I will prove——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Andrews, I have been striving earnestly to attract your attention. Please direct your remarks to the Chair and not to any other Member of this House. In this way you will avoid interruptions.

Mr. Crowley

What about the Chief Whip?

Mr. Andrews

I cannot tolerate this kind of foul charge against this side of the House by a man who might examine his own philosophy in the context of his own conscience.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should avoid indulging in personalities and stick to the Bill.

Mr. Andrews

Would the Chair direct his remarks to Deputy Kelly also? I will have to go back over this particular quotation because I have been interrupted. I am quoting from the Schedule and I will get it on the record if I have to stay here until 10.30 tonight.

A Deputy

Deputy Andrews is threatening the Chair.

Mr. Andrews

I am not threatening the Chair. I am pointing out that——

An Ceann Comhairle

With regard to quotation the Chair will tolerate a brief quotation but a very long one is not in order.

Mr. Andrews

This is not a quotation as such. What does the Chair mean by "quotation"? I am quoting a part of the Schedule which refers to the constituency——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have advised the Deputy that I will accept a brief quotation but I will rule on a very long quotation.

Mr. Andrews

I must be allowed to make my point——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will be allowed to make his speech——

Mr. Andrews

——in regard to this constituency which I represent. I must be allowed to place on the record the part of the Schedule which refers to my constituency.

An Ceann Comhairle

I want to help the Deputy but he should not place himself in conflict with the Chair.

Mr. Andrews

With respect, it is a most unfair ruling. It shows the bias and prejudice of the Chair towards the Opposition.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Andrews has made accusations against the Chair which he must withdraw.

Mr. Andrews

I must point out that Deputy Kelly came into the House a few moments ago and interrupted me.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must leave personalities out of the debate.

Mr. Andrews

The Chair promptly turns on me and makes me the culprit. This shows bias and prejudice.

An Ceann Comhairle

I shall have to ask the Deputy to resume his seat unless he withdraws his remarks unreservedly.

Mr. Andrews

I am just making the point——

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy withdraw his remarks?

Mr. Andrews

——that I must be allowed to make my contribution on this Bill and on that basis I will withdraw my remarks about bias and prejudice. I should like to put the Chair on notice of my intention of dealing with it in a different fashion and on a different occasion.

Mr. Crowley

There is some confusion here. We agree with the Chair when he says that he wants to get through the work as expeditiously as possible. In relation to a Bill such as this and especially in the Schedule that Deputy Andrews is quoting from——

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Deputy making a point of order?

Mr. Crowley

——it is impossible for him to make his point unless he quotes fully the areas mentioned in the Schedule. If he goes through half of it it is meaningless.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has always shown the utmost discretion in matters of this kind and has conveyed to Deputy Andrews——

Mr. Andrews

The Chair has never shown discretion. You have been most unfair to Deputy Andrews and to a number of Deputies in the Opposition.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a disgraceful accusation. I cannot allow the Chair to be challenged in this fashion. I must ask Deputy Andrews to withdraw these allegations.

Mr. Andrews

I have withdrawn the remarks——

An Ceann Comhairle

I must ask the Deputy to withdraw the insinuation that the Chair has been unfair. The Chair strives to be strictly impartial to all Deputies and maintain the dignity and decorum of this House. He resents deeply the insinuations you have made against him. They must be withdrawn without qualification.

Mr. Andrews

I am entitled to express my point of view. I have already unreservedly withdrawn my——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must not seek to circumvent the ruling of the Chair in this matter.

Mr. Andrews

I am doing that and I will deal with it on another occasion.

Mr. Begley

Withdraw the allegation.

Mr. Andrews

I have already done so.

Mr. Crowley

A troublemaker was sent into this House and he gets off scot free and I name the Chief Whip of the Coalition. He started the interruptions and the Chair has made no reference to him whatsoever.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have sought protection for every Deputy in this House, especially in the debate this evening. Would Deputy Andrews please resume on the Bill?

Mr. Crowley

A Cheann Comhairle, you can hardly blame Deputy Andrews for feeling aggrieved. He is making a fair and logical speech and this man comes into the House and starts interrupting him. It is natural that he should retaliate.

An Ceann Comhairle

Can we please get back to the debate on the Bill?

Mr. Andrews

I assume I have the Chair's protection in this matter?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy knows that full well.

Mr. Lalor

Can a speaker quote from the Schedule to the Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

Of course he can.

Mr. Andrews

To get back to this piece of gobbledegook to which I have referred, and which is contained in the Schedule to the Electoral (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 1973. Page 6 of the Schedule relates to the constituency of Dún Laoghaire as mentioned in the Bill but refers to the existing constituency of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. It states in the most beautiful of bureaucratic language

In the administrative county of Dublin, the district electoral divisions of:

Stillorgan Number Two, Stillorgan Number Three, Stillorgan Number Four, Stillorgan Number Five;

and that part of the district electoral division of Stillorgan Number One situated within a line drawn as follows:

commencing at the point where the centre line of Kilmacud Road Upper meets the northern boundary of the district electoral division then in a south-westerly direction along the centre of Kilmacud Road Upper to the point where it meets the imaginary north-westerly projection of the southern boundary of St. Joseph's Carmelite Monastery, then continuing, initially in a south-easterly direction, along the aforesaid projection and boundary to the point where it meets the western boundary of No. 75 Merville Road, then continuing, initially in a south-easterly direction, along the western boundary of each of the following—No. 75 Merville Road, Merville Road and No. 78 Merville Road—to the point where the western boundary of No. 78 Merville Road meets the rear boundary of No. 1 Weirview Drive, then continuing, initially in a south-westerly direction, along the rear boundary of the houses on the western and southern sides of Weirview Drive to the point where the rear boundary of No. 131 Weirview Drive meets the southern boundary of the Electricity Supply Board property on Brewery Road, then continuing from that point, initially in an easterly direction, along the southern boundary of the said property and the imaginary easterly projection of that boundary to the point where that projection meets the district electoral division boundary, then continuing, initially in a northeasterly direction, along the district electoral division boundary to the point first mentioned;

and the borough of Dún Laoghaire.

What a piece of infamy? What a deliberate and calculated attempt to be carried in this House, unfortunately, by virtue of the number of Deputies in Government vis-à-vis the number of Deputies in Opposition. Back gardens and boundary walls were breached to ensure that known Fianna Fáil supporters in the constituency would be lopped off at the whim of the Government Deputies in the constituency. If you continue the gerrymandering line from Stillorgan to Shankill, you find that in parts of Rochestown Avenue, a road known to myself and Deputy Desmond, a very large group of his own supporters, in fairness to Deputy Desmond, and supporters of the Fianna Fáil Party have been gerrymandered out of the constituency to make things easier for the Coalition party.

I will be dealing with the map as it relates to the Bill shortly, but that part of the map of the constituency of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown has to be seen to be believed. It looks as if somebody put his hands into a jar of sweets and took a bundle of sweets from one place and put it in another. The same thing happened in relation to the map. They said: "We will take that part of Weirview Drive from here and put it into South County Dublin and so on up along the proposed new boundary of the constituency which will be known as Dún Laoghaire. Chunks were taken from here and there right along the line. It is an incredible performance. I can imagine the situation which confronted Deputy Tully——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister for Local Government.

Mr. Andrews

The Minister for Local Government. There was a knock on the door and who presented themselves to the Minister led by the respected Taoiseach but Deputy Desmond with Deputy Percy Dockrell hovering in the background. This is pure speculation. I have no evidence that this happened. One can only speculate but this speculation is probably correct and proper. They would describe the Minister as Jim and say: "Here we are Jim, the three of us. We would like to discuss the legislation you intend to introduce in Dáil Éireann." Then they would produce their own views on what it was best to do from the point of view of the Coalition party to retain their three existing Deputies, Deputy Cosgrave, Deputy Dockrell and Deputy Desmond. They would then say: "Good bye Jim. Thanks Jim. That will be all right Jim." Of course they got their way.

I accept that Deputy Desmond is in a more difficult position. Of course, it is well known now that the Labour Party will be consumed by and become integrated into the Fine Gael Party, so Deputy Desmond will bear the tag of Fine Gael if not at the next election at the election after that. There is no doubt about that.

Mr. Kelly

It is not long since you were calling them all Reds.

Mr. Andrews

I never did that.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order please.

Mr. Andrews

Now, Sir, I claim your protection. It has been suggested by Deputy Doctor Professor Kelly——

Mr. Kelly

Do not be such a baby.

Mr. Andrews

——that it is not long since I was calling certain individuals Reds. It has never been my practice as a public representative to make that sort of charge against anybody. I seek your protection. Will you ask him to withdraw?

An Ceann Comhairle

Many charges have been made in the House and many of them are political charges. It is not as if the charge has been made against the Deputy personally.

Mr. Andrews

That confirms my opinion.

Mr. Begley

On what?

Mr. Andrews

On what I expressed before.

Mr. Begley

Did you hear that, a Cheann Comhairle?

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Kelly

Is it in order for Deputy Crowley to call me a fascist?

Mr. Crowley

Is it in order to say what you said to Deputy Andrews?

Mr. Andrews

He called me a Red baiter.

Mr. Kelly

I said your party called the Labour Party Reds four years ago and you are now talking about them being absorbed in Fine Gael.

Mr. Andrews

You have brought me back to my line of thought.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Andrews without interruption.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Crowley

Trick-o'-the-loopery on your own admission.

Mr. Andrews

As I said, it will not matter to the Coalition party in three or four years time when the Labour Party have been consumed by the Professor Kellys of this world and his colleagues of the Fine Gael Party of the extreme right.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Standing Orders ordain that Members of the House shall be referred to as Deputies and office holders shall be referred to as Ministers or Parliamentary Secretaries as the case may be.

Mr. Andrews

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach and the Minister for Defence, Professor John Kelly.

Mr. Kelly

My experience as a teacher is that the pupils who sneer the loudest are the stupidest.

Mr. Crowley

On a point of order, can Deputy Kelly come into the House and stand up and make a speech any time he likes and not be repremanded as we are on this side of the House?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is striving to maintain order.

Mr. Kelly

I have never yet made a speech without being interrupted.

Mr. Andrews

It is a reputation he will have forever. To come back to the matter of the constituency boundaries and the denials of the Labour Party, it was understandable that the Fine Gael juggernaut in the constituency of Dún Laoghaire would overcome the lesser weight of the so-called Labour left. I have already quoted from the schedule a lengthy piece of complicated drafting to ensure the continued welfare of the Coalition party in the constituency of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown to be known as the constituency of Dún Laoghaire. Undoubtedly, the Taoiseach, Deputy Dockrell and Deputy Desmond conspired together to ensure that the Coalition party would be kept in office for a considerable time to come. They made one very serious mistake. The people in the constituency of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown will realise the extent of the gerrymander hoodwink perpetrated on them and the deliberate and cold and mechanical fashion in which the gerrymander was brought about to the extent of actually breaching the borough boundary. That is how it was organised.

As we know in this constituency the Fine Gael Party have quite considerable support, and fair enough. Equally in a number of areas to my certain knowledge, they have a number of very good people who have decided themselves to the welfare of the party in which they have believed over the years. They are good people. I do not deny that. While I may not agree with a man's political views, it is good to see him with a commitment. I do not criticise people for their involvement in the Fine Gael Party, quite the contrary, but these individuals would know, properly so, where their vote is in their own locality and, of course, their messages were coming in from the various parts of the constituency of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown to the Taoiseach and to Deputy Dockrell and, I have no doubt, to their Coalition party colleague Deputy Desmond: if you keep that part of the constituency in you will be all right; if you keep that part of the constituency out it will be equally all right because that part of the constituency contains a greater number of Fianna Fáil supporters as against support for the Coalition parties. That is the way, as I understand it, and as I understand it, that this vile gerrymander was brought about in the constituency of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown.

The job is well done. Make no mistake about that. It was done well and I accept that. When one talks about a gerrymander being done, one thinks of the same job being done in the Six Counties over the years by the Unionist Party. A job done well, certainly, but whether it is in the best interests of democracy is the question. I believe it is not. The mechanics, the deliberate working out, the mechanical calculated working out of a gerrymander of this nature to continue the best interests of one political party as against the other is politically and conceptually wrong. It is false. It is undemocratic. That is why I charge the present Coalition outfit—forgive me, Government—with hypocrisy. They must be complete hypocrites. If one looks at the record, at the whole history of the debate on the last Electoral (Amendment) Bill introduced by the Fianna Fáil Party the Opposition then were calling for independent commissions. I personally —I must have this on the record of the House—do not favour independent commissions. I believe we are elected here to do our own work and I do not think responsibility should be shrugged off lightly by this House. I would not accept the proposition for one moment that we should have independent commissions and let someone else do the work for us. We should stand on our own two feet. Whatever decisions we make here let us stand over them. We are sent here by the people for a term of years to represent them and if we make mistakes during the course of those years here we will have to answer for them in the next election, and so be it, but in the meantime let us do our duty according to what we consider our duty to be. I believe it is not proper that an independent commission should sit on a Bill of this nature or other related matters. This is a purely personal opinion but it is not in conflict with the policy of Fianna Fáil on this Bill in any respect.

I have dealt with the constituency which the respected Taoiseach and my colleagues, Deputy Desmond and Deputy Dockrell represent. Over the years we have enjoyed a rather friendly relationship and I would hope that nothing I said in relation to the constituency would in any way harm that relationship in the personal sense of that relationship. Of course, we are going to be forever in opposition in relation to the political philosophy, one party as against another and that is proper.

Mr. McMahon

Deputy Andrews will be back. Room was left for him.

Mr. Andrews

That is not the point. That is the sort of selfish thinking that, as I understand it, has brought about the gerrymander I have been pointing out. I must recognise and so must all Deputies, if they are honest with themselves, that they are trustees for the time being of their political party; it does not matter if the Fianna Fáil Party gets the seat or Deputy Larry McMahon gets the seat or the Labour Party gets the seat, the person holding the seat is a mere trustee for the time being and the name of the person does not matter so long as the party is represented. That is the important thing.

Mr. McMahon

So long as the Deputy represents Dún Laoghaire.

Mr. Andrews

That is not so. The Deputy has my concept of politics altogether wrong. I do not want my line perpetuated. The people who perpetuate me here are the people in the constituency.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy would address himself to the Chair and avoid taking up interruptions, we would make better progress.

Mr. Andrews

It was a pleasant philosophical interlude, but we will leave it. Deputy Dowling mentioned a matter that must cause grave concern to the people of the west of Ireland. As we know the Coalition group, the National Coalition Government, came into being as a Government on foot of a number of promises they made, the now well-trodden and infamous 14-point programme. None of these promises has, of course, been honoured.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is hardly relevant to the Bill under discussion.

Mr. Andrews

I am coming to it, with great respect. None of these promises has been honoured. It is consistent with their policy and, indeed, with their philosophy in relation to the west of Ireland that they did not appoint a Minister, but when they found the public outcry——

An Ceann Comhairle

Again, this is not relevant to the Bill at all.

Mr. Andrews

——they suddenly came along and appointed a very——

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter of the appointment of Ministers is not relevant to the Bill.

Mr. Andrews

——respected Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Kenny, and the matter——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Andrews

Would the Parliamentary Secretary ever run away? Deputy Kelly, Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach and to the Minister for Defence, really should not interrupt me. He has made his contribution to the Bill and I would appeal to the Chair for the third time for the protection of the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair supports the Deputy in his appeal for freedom from interruption from anyone.

Mr. Kelly

Is it in order for a Deputy to refer to another Deputy as a fascist?

An Ceann Comhairle

I did not hear the expression.

Mr. Andrews

If the Chair did not hear it, there is nothing for me to withdraw. I must say the new candidate for Monaghan struck a very significant pose in the Irish Press and the Irish Independent today.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is straying now from the matter under debate.

Mr. Andrews

The matter of the west of Ireland is totally consistent with the National Coalition Party policy and their philosophy in relation to the west and the way in which they have taken Deputies from the west and once more given the eastern part of the country more Deputies, increasing representation on the eastern seaboard. As I said, they appointed no Ministers from the west. They appointed a Parliamentary Secretary after much public outcry and now they are actually taking away seats from the west of Ireland. I am glad to see Deputy McDonald in the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not indulge in personalities. If he ceases to do so we will avoid the interruptions about which the Deputy complained so bitterly.

Mr. Lalor

There is nothing wrong with the Deputy saying he is glad to see Deputy McDonald in the House. There are so few Fine Gael Deputies in the House it is no harm to draw attention to one of them.

Mr. Andrews

I was not complaining, Sir. I was expressing pleasure at seeing Deputy McDonald in the House. Having said that, may I say their whole attitude in relation to regional policy vis-á-vis the west of Ireland is well known. It is consistent with the terms of this Bill.

Mr. Esmonde

The Deputy's party depopulated the west.

Mr. Andrews

They moved a number of Deputies from the west of Ireland and redistributed them elsewhere. In fact, they gave Dáil Éireann 147 seats, an increase of 3 seats.

Mr. Esmonde

The Bill proposes to increase the number of Deputies to 148.

Mr. Andrews

Fair enough, we are all entitled to a Deputy one way or another.

Mr. Esmonde

Some of our memories are a bit faulty. Monaghan was not long ago.

Mr. Andrews

This Bill sees fit to increase the overall representation in Dáil Éireann and to decrease the representation in the west of Ireland. I hope the people in the country will take note of the proposal in this regard. It is absolutely disgraceful. Unfortunately, this Bill will succeed in doing this because the Government have a majority of Deputies to go through the lobbies.

Mr. L. Belton

For too long it was the other way.

Mr. Andrews

I am certain that the people of the west of Ireland will take a clear note of what is happening. This is a continuation of a very serious and insidious process begun by the Government when they returned to office after 16 years. The Government is again consistent in depriving the west of Ireland of a Minister on the one hand, various industrial schemes on the other hand, and now depriving the west of Deputies. At the same time, they increased the number of Deputies in the Dáil. If that is not scandalous in the proper sense of that word I do not know what is.

I should like to refer again to the constituency of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown which will be known, when this Bill is passed, as the constituency of Dún Laoghaire. We have the situation daily where we are informed by the news media and some of the sophisticates therein that the Dáil will be overburdened with something like 82 or 83 seats on the Government side. This, in my opinion, is not giving credit to the people of this country who will decide on the issues and policies presented before an election whether the Government outgoing will be the Government incoming.

I do not want to put panic into the hearts of the Labour Deputies in the Dublin area but I can see the situation——

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

The panic is there already.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is striving to ensure that Deputy Andrews can speak without interruption.

Mr. Kelly

Look how politely Deputy Andrews welcomes interruptions from his own side.

Mr. Andrews

I do not count that an interruption; I call it an assist. From my own Deputies it is an assist but from people like Deputy Kelly it is base interruption.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair will decide these matters in respect of interruption and will not make a distinction either.

Mr. Andrews

The three-seaters in the Dublin area, and the Labour Party, would make a very good title for a play, "Three seaters in the Dublin area and the Labour Party". Here we have a situation where with prices, the non-fulfilment of national loans, the undermining of national confidence by this present grouping described as a government, and we must recognise them as such until such time as they cease to be a government——

Mr. Esmonde

And the Potez factory.

Mr. Lalor

The Deputy is going back a long way.

Mr. Esmonde

We remember.

Mr. Andrews

For these reasons the Labour Party in the Dublin area must be extremely concerned. I should have said the former Labour Party. They are going to be submerged into the Fine Gael Party in due time and there is nothing surer than that. In the meantime, because they describe themselves as the Labour Party, they must be given that proper description.

Mr. Esmonde

When will the Deputy merge the dissidents in his party.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

What about the mongrel foxes.

Mr. Andrews

The next election will be fought on the non-discharge of promises and particularly on the prices front. The Labour Deputies will have to go back to their constituency organisations, those who have such organisations left, prior to the next election. I can understand the decent man who supported the labour philosophy as propounded by Labour Deputies in the past when he sees the situation of the Parliamentary Labour Party being taken over lock, stock and barrel by the Fine Gael Party, having difficulty in supporting the Labour Party organisations in his constituency.

I can see the Labour Party, under the three-seaters, being wiped out in the Dublin area. With all their smartness, all their glibness, their arrogance and other matters related to the type of mind which would introduce a Bill of this nature, I do not believe that the people will accept it. Unfortunately, democratically they must get away with it in the sense that it will pass through this House and will become the law of the land. I believe the people will reject it. The greatest point of rejection, as those who have spoken to wellknown Labour supporters were given to understand, is this question of the consumption of the Labour Party by the Fine Gael Party in the Dublin area. The people at the next election will wipe them out formally. Then they will go running to the clubs, the wigwams, the tents and the lodges of the Fine Gael Party seeking protection. They have the umbrella of the Fine Gael Party while they are described as the Labour Party, a description that does not properly fit them.

Maybe the next election is not that far off. Indeed, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach and the Minister for Defence was pressing to have this Bill dealt with expeditiously. He was pressing to have it dealt with as a matter of urgency before the Christmas recess. Naturally one's antennae are inclined to go up and one is inclined to question this rush and indecent haste. Why is this Bill wanted so quickly? Flushed with the limited success of the Monaghan by-election I believe the Taoiseach saw the opportunity and he sent his messenger boy, I beg your pardon, Deputy Professor Kelly, along to the Fianna Fáil Whip's office with the message to get the Bill through as a matter of urgency.

However, our antennae also went up. We want a general election as a matter of urgency, tomorrow, if possible. Nevertheless, we feel that we have an obligation to expose this vile and infamous document which has been given the title of the Electoral (Amendment) (No. 2 Bill), 1973. We have an obligation to the community and to democracy to expose this insidious Bill proposed by the Minister for Local Government.

On the Committee Stage more particularly I intend to challenge the legality of that part of the Bill which relates to the then constituency of Dún Laoghaire—the now constituency of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. We are informed that the Minister for Local Government produced a map of the constituency of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown and that the statement in the Schedule relates to the map of the constituency of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown then and the new constituency of Dún Laoghaire. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is no such thing as a map of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. I defy any individual Deputy to go to the Library and have a look at the detailed map of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown as distinct from the map of Ireland where you will see Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown set out as a spot. In that sense there is a comprehensive set-out of the constituency of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, in the map of Ireland, in the totality of the map, but not in the small map which is presented as the constituencies in the Dublin and county area.

The constituency of Dún Laoghaire does not exist in map form and I must challenge the Minister for Local Government to produce a proper, full map of the constituency of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown to let us know where we are. Certainly, as a Deputy for the area I know exactly what the gerrymander means. As somebody said, in fairness, as far as one's personal future is concerned, for an individual Fianna Fáil Deputy in the constituency of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown there is clearly a Fianna Fáil seat there but the gerrymander is so organised as to ensure—and I am entitled to say this because it is a fact —that a second seat for the Fianna Fáil Party will never rear its head in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown.

Mr. McMahon

It did not on the last occasion.

Mr. Andrews

No, but it did the time before that and the time before that and, I believe, the time before that. Deputy McMahon, who is a very fairminded Deputy, will agree with that assessment if he analyses what I have said, that it was a calculated gerrymander to ensure the survival of the National Coalition Party in the constituency of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown being made up of the Taoiseach, Deputies P. Dockrell and B. Desmond. This map, as I have said, is not in existence. I would ask the Minister to ask the respected civil servants to go about getting the mapping section or whatever section they have, to produce a proper map of the constituency of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. As I understand it at the moment it is truncated to the extent that when you come to Loughlinstown Cross it ceases and you then have to go from Loughlinstown Cross by your imagination to the outskirts of Bray. A Deputy for the area should know—and does know in this case—exactly what this Schedule means in the context of the constituency of Dún Laoghaire. he knows it, indeed. He knows what has been done deliberately to continue, really, the existence of the National Coalition juggernaut in that constituency.

On the matter of the breaching of county boundaries the Minister for Local Government while in Opposition—he was spokesman for something or other; I cannot quite remember what it was—stated in Volume 237, column 1817, of the Official Report:

I do not care what any Member of the House says; I have a personal view on this. I believe that county boundaries are important just as I believe that the national boundary is important and I would not agree that somebody who lives in County Meath would be as happy being attached to another county.

Later in the same column he said:

I do not agree, therefore, that county boundaries should be sundered. The Minister has a sin to answer for.

The Minister at that time was the Minister for Local Government in the Fianna Fáil Administration, Mr. Boland.

Mr. Kelly

The man whose votes were too dirty to handle according to——

Mr. Andrews

The Parliamentary Secretary got a fair slice of the same votes.

Mr. Kelly

We were being sneered at from your side——

Acting Chairman (Mr. Carter)

Deputies may not carry on crosstalk. If a Deputy wants to interrupt he will please do it through the Chair.

Mr. Andrews

I must thank you for your protection which is much appreciated. I have been vilified here and——

Mr. Kelly

Sorely tried.

Mr. Andrews

Sorely tried, to use the Deputy's expression, over the last hour and a half.

Mr. Kelly

Like every other Deputy, except that Deputy Andrews cannot take it.

Mr. Andrews

Professor Kelly is not dealing with one of his students now.

Mr. Kelly

I know well I am not.

Mr. Andrews

The Deputy should behave himself. He is in Leinster House now. We are dealing with the breaching of county boundaries by the present Minister for Local Government and I have just quoted two rather interesting passages from his contribution on the last Electoral Amendment Bill. He says he does not agree that county boundaries should be sundered and that the Minister has a sin to answer for. If the then Minister had a sin to answer for surely the present Minister who made this statement has some sins to answer for now.

Mr. Briscoe

Greater sin.

Mr. Andrews

It is a greater sin because it was said, I am sure, with great sincerity at that time; and the person who alleged the then Minister was sinning is now committing the very same sins. In my view this could be described as hypocrisy. Those with a greater command of the English language might use less crude phraseology in charging the Minister with this but I must charge him with hypocrisy because that is what it is—humbug and hypocrisy. The whole tragic gerrymander Bill is littered with this: views expressed a number of years ago cease to have validity now. What was good four years ago appears to be bad now. They called for an independent commission and they have reneged on that. They suggested county boundaries should not be breached and they have reneged on that. They have reneged all along the line in the production of this mammoth gerrymander.

Let me make the point once more, and I shall go off it again, that I do not accept that the Bill itself will give the outgoing Government continuity in office as it is calculated to do. It is deliberately calculated to ensure the continuance in office of the outgoing Government for years to come. I do not think they will get away with it because the electorate are too sophisticated and will understand the intention behind a measure of this kind. The Government will not get 82 or 83 seats. I believe the next Government will be a Fianna Fáil Government. That is a personal belief but I am entitled to put it on the record.

With regard to the breaching of county boundaries, I should like to quote a letter from the corporation of Dún Laoghaire dated 4th December, 1973. I might put on record that the council is Fine Gael-dominated. Unfortunately it is over-burdened with Fine Gael councillors but at the next June elections that matter will be sorted out and I have no doubt that Fianna Fáil will have their fair share of seats there.

The Government talk glibly about power sharing but we know that they have appointed all their own pals to State boards. We know what they have done in other areas that I will not mention here. We know they have wiped out individuals who purported to support Fianna Fáil. It is a case of jobs for the boys, but the only problem they have is that they cannot decide which boy to give the job to because one person may be Labour and the other Fine Gael.

Mr. L. Belton

The golden handshake.

Mr. Andrews

Are you practising golden handshakes also? That does not surprise me. At the moment we are talking about power sharing; tripartite talks are being conducted and we wish them every success. Everyone knows Fianna Fáil's attitude in relation to those talks. The Minister for propaganda, Deputy O'Brien, through his propaganda machine—otherwise known as the Government Information Services— from time to time has produced the most beautiful litany in the newspapers of what the Government are doing or are not doing, and what they intend to do in the future. This is presented in such a way to suggest that the Government have cornered the market in political purity. We know they are not practising power sharing and that they never intended doing it. It is there for the grabs, and my goodness they are grabbing it. Since coming into office last March they have distinguished themselves in grabbing the loot, from the most minor appointment——

Mr. Esmonde

On a point of order, what has this got to do with the Bill?

Mr. Andrews

It is totally consistent with grabbing the loot. That is what this Bill is designed to do. It is designed to screw down the country for the benefit of the Coalition Parties.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

Obviously that is hurting.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Carter)

Deputies should refrain from interrupting. Cross-talk will serve no purpose and Deputies should allow the debate to proceed.

Mr. Andrews

This gerrymander Bill is designed to preserve the continuance in office of the Government. It is well known that certain designs have become unstuck. We believe this design will become unstuck.

Mr. L. Belton

Is the Deputy referring to the Monaghan by-election?

Mr. Andrews

I have outlined my own views. I have put on the record the fact that Deputy Kelly, Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach and to the Minister for Defence, rushed up to Deputy Lalor in a breathless state and said that they wanted the Second Stage, in fact the whole Bill, before Christmas. Deputy Lalor might confirm this when he is making his contribution to the debate. Fianna Fáil's antennae went up. Why do the Government want the Bill before Christmas? It cannot be for any altruistic motive. It cannot be that they want to streamline the business of the House because their reputation in relation to legislation is deplorable and disreputable. With the compliments of the Government propaganda services—otherwise known as the Government Information Services—we are provided with the daily lie that the Government are producing certain kinds of legislation. I suggest to them that they put up or shut up.

The Monaghan by-election has far greater significance for the Government than they realise and it is a lesson they might learn in the very near future in a general election. I am sure Deputies will agree with me when I say we do not like by-elections because it means that some of our colleagues retire or pass on.

Mr. L. Belton

That is not what happened in Monaghan.

Mr. Andrews

In that instance he retired. I was trying to get on the record of the House a letter I received from the corporation of Dún Laoghaire dated 4th December, 1973. It reads:

4th December, 1973.

Dear Deputy,

The following is the text of letter of this date which has been forwarded to the Department of Local Government with regard to proposals contained in the Electoral (Amendment) No. 2 Bill, 1973, affecting this constituency:—

"The Borough Council have considered the proposals in the Electoral Amendment (No. 2) Bill, 1973, so far as they affect the Borough and the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown Constituency area. On 3rd instant, they adopted the following resolution in this connection:—

`This Council recommends the transfer of Ballybrack No. 1 (8703) from the proposed South County Dublin to Dún Laoghaire, with Stillorgan No. 5 (4776) and Stillorgan No. 1 part of (2758) total (7534) being transferred from the proposed Dún Laoghaire to South County Dublin.'

The members have pointed out that the Corporation has provided a 100 acre housing site in the Ballybrack No. 1 Electoral Division and have rehoused or will rehouse there borough residents who could not be accommodated in the borough. They suggest that a very sizeable proportion of the electorate in the Ballybrack No. 1 Electoral Division consists of these former residents of the borough and that it would be contrary to the Minister's expressed intention of not splitting unnecessarily natural communities to cut them away from the borough electorate and attach them to the Dublin South County Constituency.

It has also pointed out that a constituency consisting of the borough with the Ballybrack No. 1 Electoral Division and Stillorgan 2, 3 and 4 Electoral Divisions would provide a constituency with natural physical boundary so far as possible, in that the Dublin-Stillorgan-Bray Road would be the boundary from Booterstown to Loughlinstown.

Based on the 1971 census figure, the deviation from the national average population per seat would only be 292 which is considered reasonable. I am to request that the Minister will give sympathetic consideration to the Council's resolution before the Committee Stage of the Bill."

Yours faithfully.

The letter is signed by the Town Clerk.

Mr. Harte

The Deputy had a busy time closing brackets.

Mr. Andrews

I had to get the letter properly on the record. If one has to close brackets one has to close brackets. That is all about it. The Minister's expressed intention when he was spokesman for Local Government in Opposition on the matter of the breaching of constituency boundaries has been quoted by me at considerable length. Here we have a very reasonable request from the corporation of Dún Laoghaire, which is the borough council. They have properly considered the proposals in the Electoral (Amendment) Bill. I am sure other local authorities have also done so. I would like to take this opportunity of congratulating the Borough Council of Dún Laoghaire for going into this matter in such considerable depth. It is a matter which affects their own area and they have properly articulated a point of view to the Minister.

Mr. L. Belton

It shows how fair Fine Gael are. They have the majority.

Mr. Andrews

They have the majority in the constituency and in the borough unfortunately. When June, 1974, comes there may be a different story to tell. Fianna Fáil will get a proper and consistent representation on the Dún Laoghaire Borough Council. In the letter the council recommend the transfer of Ballybrack No. 1. One must imagine the constituency of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. It is a triangle with a broad base at the Booterstown end and it runs into a narrow apex at the top around the Killiney-Ballybrack area. In that apex is contained parts of the borough of Dún Laoghaire, and Ballybrack is prominent in that respect. Here it is being wiped out of the borough of Dún Laoghaire which itself is an autonomous borough in the sense that it is one unified whole. Why should we not keep Ballybrack? Why should not Ballybrack, a natural part of the borough of Dún Laoghaire, remain within Dún Laoghaire. It is just not being done by the Minister for Local Government who has decided that it does not suit the Coalition Party machine or juggernaut. The Minister is going to cut out that piece ruthlessly. He is going to snip it. He is going to snip that piece of Ballybrack which he considers to be most embarrassing to the Fine Gael Party. That is what he is doing.

The Minister has taken a natural piece of the Borough of Dún Laoghaire out of that borough for selfish, political, party reasons. I cannot speculate about any other reason. This was not done through any sense of altruism.

Mr. Esmonde

Is the Deputy alleging that they are all Fianna Fáil people who are being snipped out?

Mr. Andrew

Almost. I cannot say emphatically that that is so. I would like to conclude. I can see that my colleagues wish to get in. I apologise for delaying the House but I felt it was important to speak. Deputy Desmond may have spoken on this. I have no doubt that when he spoke on the Bill he praised and congratulated the Minister, and went through all the old rigmarole and formula. Poor Deputy Desmond knows as well as I do that he is in a difficult situation. Not only did they not appoint him to some office but they did the dirt on him in the constituency of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. That is understandable.

Mr. Harte

That is not fair. If Deputy Desmond were here he would tell Deputy Andrews that a similar situation arose before. When Deputy Jack Lynch was Taoiseach in 1969 Deputy Andrews was lined up for Parliamentary Secretary but the former Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries said "no" and Deputy Andrews was not appointed until that Minister left.

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman

Will Deputy Andrews resume his seat? Will the Deputies please have reference to the Chair? The Chair cannot tolerate this cross-talk.

Mr. Harte

I was only defending my colleague who was not here.

Mr. Andrews

There was no need to defend your colleague.

Acting Chairman

I would ask the Deputies to refrain from interrupting.

Mr. Andrews

I have the greatest respect for Deputy Desmond and sympathy for him. I have respect for him in every sense. I do not agree with his political philosophy, and I will fight him on those grounds only and reasonably so. I just want to give this Bill my "amen" with one more reference to the main charges which we have been making consistently against it during our contributions and which we will continue to make against it during the course of its journey through this House. We will continue to fight it to the very last and we know we cannot win. We are going in on a losing wicket. The whole Government apparatus is loaded against the Opposition.

The weakness of the Opposition case is only that it lacks a certain number of Deputies to defeat the Government in bringing about their wishes. It is probably one of the most dangerous Bills ever, it is dangerous to democracy. It is the most dangerous type of Bill to come before this House. It is an undemocratic Bill and a Bill of a highly gerrymandering nature. We will continue to expose it for what it is as long as the opportunity presents itself.

Mr. Faulkner

I would like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that apart from a very brief intervention by Deputy Luke Belton no effort was made by any Deputy on the Government side to defend this Bill. I suppose it is true to say that it is understandable that they should not attempt to defend a Bill of this type, or at least that it might take a certain amount of courage on the part of Deputies opposite to defend it. They are quite obviously lacking in that courage.

The Bill is an effort by the Minister for Local Government to copperfasten the Coalition in office for as long as possible. There is very little more to be said in relation to this aspect of the Bill. When the Bill was clearly published this aspect was identified by the media. Later on when neutral observers had time to consider the Bill properly they also recognised it for what it is. Today it is recognised by the public at large as an attempt to copperfasten the Government in office for as long as possible. I have no doubt that the Deputies on the Government side also recognise this Bill for what it is. In fact, the Minister himself recognises it. It would be too much to expect that the Minister concerned would express this view in public. While the Minister may be successful in his quite obvious aim, time will tell whether or not he will be successful. However, it is of little use that the Minister should pretend that this is not his aim.

I can understand why the Minister has taken up this stance and why he is not willing to admit publicly that his objective is, as I said earlier, as best he can to ensure continuance of this Government in office and to stifle as far as he can the democratic will of the people. It is, of course, because he himself—and this was quoted on many occasions so I am not going to bother quoting it again— while in opposition was one of the severest critics of the system which he is now operating. He it was who condemned the system under which the Minister for Local Government decided on the constituency boundaries. He vehemently advocated that this method should be abolished and that quite a different procedure should be adopted.

I have no doubt that the public, reading the then Labour Deputy's statements felt assured that should his party, whether as a single party Government or in coalition, be returned to office, when the opportunity would arise his party would press for change and that he himself would be foremost among those who would endeavour to change the system which he regarded as despicable when he was in opposition.

The same arguments were reiterated by the Fine Gael Deputies during the previous debates on constituency Bills in this House, and not only were those arguments put forward by the Fine Gael Party but they tried to introduce a Bill which would change the system. Again, I must underline that the public could be forgiven if they were to feel that a change in Government, where again the Fine Gael Party would come to power either as a coalition or as a single party Government, would ensure that the methods by which the constituency revisions were made during the Fianna Fáil Administration would be changed and that we would have instead the new methods which were so strongly advocated by the Fine Gael Party when they were in opposition.

There is no point in alleging, as has been done by some of the speakers on the opposite side in the earlier part of the debate, that the Fianna Fáil Party when in office, when they decided on constituency boundaries, decided on them to suit their own purposes. Even if this were true, there is no point in the Government alleging that Fianna Fáil did this. I am not accepting that it is true, but all one has to do is to look at the result of the general elections in 1969 and 1973 in the same constituencies, and it will be seen that it would be very hard to argue that Fianna Fáil did, in fact, change the constituencies to suit themselves. So vehemently was the case for change and for neutral involvement in constituency changes pressed by the Fine Gael and Labour Parties then in opposition, that one could be forgiven if one felt that this was not simply an argument being put forward by the Opposition Deputies against proposals by the Minister for Local Government in relation to the changing of constituency boundaries, but rather that it was a matter of principle with them and that the first thing they would do if they assumed office would be to make the changes that they were so strongly advocating. I do not know what one can think of Coalition promises and arguments when in opposition, when not only have the Coalition Government continued the system in operation whereby constituency boundary changes are decided by the Minister for Local Government, but have put in charge of it a Minister who himself was one of the strongest opponents of the system which was then in operation. This is too much altogether.

It would appear, in so far as the Coalition parties are concerned, that principles and promises are forgotten when they come to power. Of course, I have had my own experience of this, particularly in relation to the Arts Council Bill, when certain sections were introduced by the present Government into that Bill which during my time in office in a similar type of Bill were opposed to the extent not only of arguments against them but of calling for votes in the House to oppose them. Therefore, I am not particularly concerned about this situation, because it is something I have come to expect.

There is a further aspect to this matter to which I would like to refer. The Parliamentary Secretary referred to political commentators who stated that under the revised constituencies the Coalition would gain 83 seats and Fianna Fáil 63 seats. He went on to say that this was nonsense and that the argument was simply put forward for the purpose of frightening people. I would say he had a very good reason to worry about this, because his own party did a very good job of frightening the people at the time of the referendum on proportional representation, when they said that Fianna Fáil would get 90 seats under the proposed changes. I have little doubt that this was one of the arguments used by the opponents of the straight vote system which most affected the result of the referendum. The Parliamentary Secretary may very well worry that a similar fate awaits the Coalition because of the case now being made not simply by the Opposition here in this House but, as I mentioned a moment ago, by the media as well.

There is another factor here which was referred to by Deputy Andrews in the course of his speech. One of the most objectionable features of Unionist rule in the north of Ireland was the fact that they gerrymandered constituencies in order to ensure their continuance in power at all levels of government. During the campaign on the two referenda on the PR system, the Fine Gael and Labour Parties campaigned against the abolition of proportional representation on the basis that this system was a fair system, that it was not possible to gerrymander under the system, and that its retention was a worthwhile incentive to encourage unity in this country.

The forecasts of the media regarding the number of seats that will go to the Coalition and to Fianna Fáil respectively in the next election related to the total Fine Gael and Labour vote, as compared with the total Fianna Fáil first preference vote, shows, I am afraid, that it is possible to gerrymander under the proportional representation system. It will hardly be the incentive that the Coalition partners suggested it would be. One would think that in present day circumstances the Government would concern themselves with the overall national situation rather than with narrow political advantage. I was intrigued by the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach that he was unaware of the constituency changes until they were published. From the Parliamentary Secretary who attends Government meetings this is a peculiar statement though perhaps he recognised that he did not have to bother very much about it because the matter could be safely left in the hands of the master.

One matter which particularly concerns me is the fact that in many of the city constituencies the average population per Deputy is below the national average. For example, in Dublin South-East it is 831 below the national average and in Dublin (Rathmines West) it is 771 below the national average. On the other hand, the population per Deputy in many of the rural constituencies is well above the national average. In Donegal, for example, it is 971 above the national average while in Mid-Cork it is 812 above it. I have always felt that the population per rural Deputy should be lower than the population per city Deputy. We must take into account the fact that some rural constituencies are territorially very large and that this presents a considerable difficulty for constituents when they wish to see their Deputy. Constituents do not always feel that a letter to a Deputy is sufficient, they often wish to see him personally and distance is very often a deterrent. We should try, in so far as it is possible, to treat all our citizens as fairly as possible in this respect. This can be done by reducing the population per Deputy in rural constituencies and particularly in rural constituencies of very large areas. If one looks at the proposed new constituency of Donegal, the distances to be travelled by constituents and by Deputies in the course of their duties are exceptional, and I have no doubt that were it not for the political implications in relation to this particular constituency nobody would dream of creating one constituency in such a large county.

Mr. Harte

Excuse my ignorance, but what are the political implications?

Mr. Faulkner

I am sure the Deputy recognises those for himself.

Mr. Harte

I do not.

Mr. Faulkner

I have always been consistent in my argument in favouring a smaller population per Deputy in the sparsely populated areas in rural Ireland as, indeed, I have been in relation to the retention of county boundaries which the Minister for Local Government supports in theory but deviates from quite considerably in practice when the political exigencies of the Coalition Parties call for it.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I thought Deputy Faulkner would be delighted to get Ardee back.

Mr. Faulkner

I shall deal with that later. I recall the case in the High Court brought by the former Labour Deputy and former Fine Gael Deputy and Senator and Parliamentary Secretary, Dr. John O'Donovan, in relation to the population per Deputy and the national average. I was a witness in that case. At that time the whole county of Louth was a three-seat constituency. The population per Deputy was well above the national average, if my memory serves me about 3,000 per Deputy. I pointed out in my evidence that while the population per Deputy was high nevertheless because the county was small constituents had no difficulty in getting in touch personally with a Deputy. But in West Cork the population per Deputy at that time was considerably below the national average, although it was territorially already very large, and if the Fine Gael Senator won his case further areas would have to be added to that constituency to retain it as a three-seat constituency and this would make it almost impossible for a very large section of the community in that constituency to get in touch personally with one of the Deputies representing them. I pointed out that County Louth was a unit for many different purposes and that the people there were, as were the people in Monaghan where the population per Deputy was much below the national average, anxious to retain County Louth as a unit just as the people in Monaghan were anxious to retain County Monaghan as a three-seat constituency. However, as it happened the Fine Gael Senator won his case and a large part of County Louth had to be transferred to the Monaghan constituency to bring the population per Deputy in each of the constituencies into line with the court decision.

The county of Louth is now to be a four-seat constituency with a part of Monaghan added to it. I welcome this because it is generally accepted that the people in an area which is cut off from the main stream of the population in that county, particularly in a county the size of Louth, Monaghan or Kildare, have not got the same interest in political life as if they were integrated in the county as a political unit. My whole attitude, as far back as the time of the court case I have mentioned, was that County Louth should be a unit in the political sense.

Fine Gael speakers during the course of the recent by-election spoke of the return of West Louth to the constituency of Louth and they inferred that this could have been done equally easily in 1961 when this part of Louth was transferred to the Monaghan constituency. This is simply not true. The population of Louth increased by 5,000 between 1966 and 1971. As far as I can remember it increased by 2,500 from 1961 to 1966 as a result, I might add, of the good government of Fianna Fáil. It will be obvious that if in 1961 the then Minister for Local Government decided on a four-seat constituency for Louth it would have meant that a very large part of County Monaghan would have had to be incorporated with County Louth. The Minister had to decide at that time whether he should add the part of Louth, which subsequently he did add, to Monaghan thereby leaving two three-seat constituencies as had been the position, or to add a large part of Monaghan to Louth and make it a four-seater while adding the other part of Monaghan to another county, perhaps Cavan, in which case Monaghan as a political entity would have ceased to exist. The reason why the Minister is now able to make the change he proposes is because of the very exceptional increase in the population of County Louth.

Mr. Harte

Is that due to Fianna Fáil.

Mr. Faulkner

Yes, it is due to the very worthwhile Government provided by Fianna Fáil.

Mr. Harte

If that is so it must have been the very bad Government of Fianna Fáil that was responsible for the neglect of Donegal.

Mr. Lalor

Is it the Deputy's wish to make a speech?

Mr. Harte

There is no need for the Deputy to invite me to do so.

Mr. Faulkner

Might I add that had it not been for the case brought before the courts by the then Fine Gael Senator, Dr. O'Donovan, it would never have been necessary to breach the boundaries in any county.

Mr. Harte

Is the Deputy now disputing the ruling of the court?

Mr. Faulkner

I can understand why I am annoying the Deputies opposite but perhaps they would allow me to make my speech and then they will have ample opportunity of contributing to the debate.

Mr. O'Brien

Equal representation.

Mr. Lalor

Equal time is allowed in the House but Deputies opposite are prevented from speaking.

Acting Chairman

Will Deputies please refrain from indulging in crosstalk? Each Deputy who wishes may contribute to the debate, so perhaps the Deputy might be allowed to continue without interruption. In this way the debate might be concluded more expeditiously.

Mr. Faulkner

I thank you, a Chathaoirleach, for your protection and would point out that I interrupt Deputies very rarely in the course of their contributions. While I have no objections to interruptions I think I should be allowed continue my speech.

Mr. Harte

We tender our apologies.

Mr. Faulkner

The second point I wish to make is that the people of the part of Louth that is being transferred back to Louth are under no illusions as to why once again they are to become part of the constituency of Louth which in future is to be a four-seater. These people know that they are being brought back by the Coalition——

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): They appeared to be happy last Tuesday.

Mr. Faulkner

——in the hope that they may win two seats in the constituency as against two for Fianna Fáil. The present situation is that Fianna Fáil have two seats and the Coalition have one. The Coalition parties have long ago given up any hope of ever shaking the Fianna Fáil vote in the present constituency of Louth and, judging from the 1973 General Election result and the result of the Presidential Election, they have every good reason for recognising that the intelligent people of Louth vote for the party they know from experience have done such exceptional work to develop the economy of the county and to put it, as it is now, in the forefront of both agricultural and industrial development.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Deputy Faulkner was in very bad humour in Ardee on Tuesday last.

Mr. Faulkner

Might I refer the Minister for Lands to the returns from Louth for the last general election? There is hardly any need for me to say any more.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): That was the trap that Fianna Fáil fell into on Tuesday last: they were looking for a repeat.

Mr. Faulkner

A part of Monaghan will be included in the new Louth constituency. I note that the Fine Gael Senator, in his speech regarding the new Louth four-seat constituency, pointed out that the people of west Louth were anxious to return to the Louth constituency and he said that the people in that part of Monaghan that is being transferred to Louth would understand and accept the situation.

Mr. Harte

As a matter of interest, who is the Fine Gael Senator?

Mr. Faulkner

I cannot follow the logic of this argument. If the people of west Louth resented being put into the Monaghan constituency, and this resentment was understandable since nobody wishes that county boundaries be breached, why should the Monaghan people not resent being put into the Louth constituency?

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Surely the Deputy cannot contend seriously that the people of Inniskeen do not regard the town of Dundalk as their shopping centre. That is the town with which they have all their affiliations.

Mr. Faulkner

We shall wait and see. I am glad to have the people of Inniskeen coming into my constituency but I do not think that Fine Gael will be very pleased with this arrangement.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I saw the box. It was very good.

Mr. Faulkner

I have a strong inkling that the Minister for Lands is not very happy with the transferring of Inniskeen and the surrounding district to the constituency of Louth. The Minister for Local Government has decided also on a four-seat constituency for Meath. I have never indulged in personalities and do not propose to do so now except to say that the Minister, like all of us, is human. However, I would hope that we shall not be given any philosophical reasons for the change. Part of Kildare is included in the Meath constituency and I note that when it suits the Minister's purpose he has no scruples regarding the breaching of county boundaries. I understand that there is very little change in regard to the part of Kildare now being added to the Meath constituency from the position which obtained before.

I can understand the people in that section of Kildare not having any great objection, such as other people might have, to continuing as part of the Meath constituency because I have no doubt that they would like to retain their connection with Deputy Crinion, who is well known to be a very active and hard-working Deputy. Nevertheless, we find that the County of Kildare is to be not in two but in three parts. I expect that the people of Kildare will endeavour to detect the logic whereby the Minister, on the one hand, can talk of his efforts to retain county boundaries while breaking them in a number of cases in their county.

I was interested in the comments of Deputy Malone in relation to the Kildare situation. It would appear that the Deputy will have some difficulty in extricating himself from the rather awkward position in which he may find himself at the time of the next revision should that part of Kildare that is now being transferred to Meath or Dublin be returned to the Kildare constituency, because I have no doubt that he will be reminded of the arguments he made here in favour of the division of his county and of his pointing out all the reasons why he believes that parts of Kildare which were to be attached to the Dublin constituency are rightly being removed from Kildare. He said they had to sacrifice a large part of Kildare to Meath and Dublin. I agree. This is in direct contradiction of what the Minister for Local Government said at an earlier stage in this debate. He stated that a very small slice would be taken from Kildare and joined to other constituencies. I expected Deputy Malone to argue for a four-seater for Kildare rather than attempt to justify the taking away of a large part of his county. I agree with him when he says that there will be additional seats in the next Dáil as a result of the increase in population. This increase reflects our growing prosperity. When one remembers that the figures he refers to are the 1971 census figures, nobody from this side of the House could have paid as worthwhile a tribute to the Fianna Fáil Party and Government as Deputy Malone.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Were Fianna Fáil not governing Connaught?

Mr. Faulkner

When discussing constituency changes, Leitrim is one of the most interesting. No county had so many crocodile tears shed over it by the Fine Gael and Labour Deputies when they were in opposition than Leitrim. They wept copiously over what they called its dismemberment. They vowed that, if they were ever returned to power, collectively or individually, they would ensure that what they called "this grave injustice" would be removed and Leitrim would become a political unit once again. I have no doubt they cashed in on votes on that issue.

Mr. Kelly

I do not believe they got a single vote on this issue.

Mr. Faulkner

The Parliamentary Secretary has not been in political life very long. He does not know——

Mr. Kelly

I am long enough in political life to know a good argument.

Mr. Faulkner

——very much about conditions in rural Ireland.

Mr. Kelly

The Leitrim people are not fools.

Mr. Faulkner

I can assure the Parliamentary Secretary that there is no question but that the Fine Gael Party cashed in on votes in Leitrim on the understanding that, should they be returned to power, they would ensure that Leitrim became a political unit.

Mr. Reynolds

Who said it and where was it said?

Mr. Faulkner

Deputy Reynolds ought to know.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order please. Deputy Faulkner, without interruption.

Mr. Faulkner

Now that the Coalition have been returned to power, and the Fine Gael Party is part of the power structure in the present Government, the unity of Leitrim has been forgotten and it is again partitioned.

Mr. Kelly

The Deputy will admit that there is a considerable improvement in Leitrim.

Mr. Faulkner

I sincerely hope that the people of Leitrim in the next election will not forget what has happened to them.

Mr. Harte

Fianna Fáil put Leitrim into Ulster.

Mr. Faulkner

It is no comfort to those people who have been told on numerous occasions that they would be returned as a unit——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Faulkner

If anybody wants to know more about the attitude of the Fine Gael and Labour Parties to this matter, they should read the debate on the last Constituency Bill.

As I have said, it is no consolation to the people of Leitrim, who were promised that should the Coalition come to power that they would be returned as a political unit, to be told now that they are two instead of three pieces. They wanted to be one unit. They were promised that they would be one unit. Votes were got because of this promise and, like other Coalition promises, it has been broken.

Mr. Kelly

What did Deputy Molloy propose to do?

Mr. Reynolds

On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle. I have heard Deputy Faulkner say three times that members of this party promised that Leitrim would be brought back as a unit. I ask him to quote who said it.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Faulkner

As has been mentioned by many speakers——

Mr. Harte

Are we to take it that Deputy Faulkner has no intention of replying to Deputy Reynolds?

Mr. Faulkner

The west of Ireland has been forgotten by the Coalition. Deputy Molloy clearly indicated the manner in which it would be possible to retain 30 seats in the west. If he was concerned with Ireland as a whole, the Minister would have approached the position in the west of Ireland in this way. This was not to be. Apart from reducing the number of seats in the west by two, the Coalition's only concern was to make adjustments to suit their own ends. These went against the stated principles of the Minister in relation to county boundaries. He created the monstrosity which will be known in future as West Galway, and includes a large slice of Clare. I do not mean to go into detail about what could have been done in relation to the Galway-Clare situation. It is patently obvious what the proper and fair distribution of seats should have been.

Mr. Kelly

Tell us what Deputy Molloy proposed.

Mr. Faulkner

We had a considerable amount of peace when the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach was out of the House. Unfortunately, now that he is back, we have more than our quota of interruptions.

The two extra seats should have been given to the west. We are in danger of being dominated by Dublin's need and outlook, because of the large share of Deputies which Dublin is getting. If the population of Dublin continues to increase, then the number of Deputies will increase also. This should concern us all because of the needs of rural Ireland, especially along the west coast. We must always keep in mind the need to develop properly as a nation, not only economically—and our economy is still largely dependent on agriculture —but culturally as well. It is well to remember that one of our greatest cultural assets, the Irish language, is spoken in the west as the vernacular, and real concern should have been shown here rather than political expediency.

Reference was made on a number of occasions during this debate to the fact that Dublin has got three-seat constituencies, except in one notable case, while at present it has four-seat constituencies. In Cork where there are two three-seat constituencies at present they will be replaced by a five-seat constituency. If three-seat constituencies are deemed to be best for Dublin, why are three-seat constituencies not suitable for Cork? I cannot see the logic behind this decision and I do not think anybody else can.

The Minister said that one of his main objectives was to preserve county boundaries. We recognise, of course, that he is not in the least concerned with county boundaries except where it suits him. If he is not also concerned with city boundaries, how can he justify cutting off a large part of the city of Cork and joining it to a rural Cork constituency which is exceptionally large at present? I do not suppose that at this stage of the Bill it is necessary for me to continue to show up the many anomalies and contradictions in the Bill. As was said by Deputy Andrews and as I have already said myself, this Bill is quite obviously an attempt by the Minister and the Government to copperfasten the Government in office. Like many other speakers I should like to say that the people will have last say. I have no doubt that the people will recognise what is being done here and will deal with the Government accordingly when the next general election is declared.

Mr. Lalor

I can truthfully say in relation to this discussion that I am in the peculiar position—I will not say the unique position because there are a couple of other constituencies like mine—in the light of this Bill and the damage it is endeavouring to do, that I can speak objectively about the Bill because it does not interfere with the possibility of my re-election or otherwise. The Laois-Offaly constituency is not being changed and it has not been changed down through the years. My observations can be made objectively because of the fact that I have no personal axe to grind. Opposition Deputies have spoken about changes which affect their own constituencies and they have dealt with the overall picture. They have been able to show up this Bill for what it is. Instead of being called the Electoral (Amendment) Bill it should be called the National Coalition Consolidation Bill. The Bill is likely to backfire. Deputy Andrews said that there seems to be unholy haste about the manner in which the Government are anxious to rush this Bill through the House.

Mr. Kelly

This is a bit thick. This is the sixth bite at the cherry.

Mr. Lalor

In view of that interruption I think I should draw attention to the fact that while we had an Acting Chairman the Parliamentary Secretary and Government Whip left the House and there were no interruptions. For some peculiar reason the Parliamentary Secretary and Government Whip comes back into the House to give bad example when the Ceann Comhairle returns to the Chair.

Minister for Lands (Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick,

Cavan): On a point of order, that is obviously a reflection on the Chair and should be withdrawn.

Mr. Lalor

If it turns out to be a reflection on the Chair I withdraw it. I do not intend to reflect on the Chair. I intended it deliberately to reflect on the Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. Kelly

On me. One of the most disagreeable dog fights this evening was with Deputy Andrews and was conducted in the presence of the Ceann Comhairle.

Mr. Lalor

Agreed.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is anxious to maintain strict order in the House and to apportion fair play to all Deputies. Deputy Lalor may be assured of that also.

Mr. Lalor

Am I entitled to look for a quorum?

Mr. Harte

I thought the Deputy was to speak objectively. Why does he not start?

Mr. Lalor

I got a lesson from the Parliamentary Secretary about three weeks ago. I want to show up some of his figures for what they are.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

Mr. Lalor

In the course of my observations I propose to draw attention to a number of observations made by the Minister for Local Government.

Mr. Coogan

On a point of order——

Mr. Lalor

Does the Deputy want to make a point of order?

Mr. L. Belton

The bell is still ringing.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is anxious for the best order for the Deputy in possession.

Mr. Lalor

During the course of this discussion so far a number of points have been made, 90 per cent of the time from this side of the House. A big number of contributions brought observations from the Minister who, naturally enough, cannot be here today. We should not allow this debate to be completed until the Minister comes back. I was given to understand today that his Parliamentary Secretary was standing by waiting to reply to the debate. In view of the very valuable contributions made from this side of the House it would be improper for us to complete the debate without giving the Minister ample opportunity to reply to the very many justifiable criticisms of the Bill and the very many justifiable criticisms that will still arise.

I do not want to leave myself open to any criticism indicating that I have no alternatives to suggest to the Minister for Local Government. I sat in this House during the debate on the 1968 Bill. I was Parliamentary Secretary at the time. I listened to the various contributions. I witnessed the crocodile tears shed in connection with Leitrim. I am glad Deputy Reynolds has come in to hear my reference to the Leitrim situation. A few moments ago he had some questions for my colleague, Deputy Faulkner. He did not himself contribute to the debate so far. If he did he would, of course, have to say in justification of what his own Minister is doing that he is quite happy with the carve-up of Leitrim, but it would be rather difficult for him to come in here and say that.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): It is not a carving. It is a stitching up.

Mr. Reynolds

Fianna Fáil did the carving.

Mr. Harte

It suffered a compound fracture as a result of Fianna Fáil's operation.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Lalor now, without interruption.

Mr. Lalor

My colleague, Deputy Molloy, dealt very comprehensively with this Bill. He drew attention to the fact that on a population basis the province of Connacht, with the inclusion of Donegal and Clare, was entitled to 30 seats in this House but the Minister was making provision for only 28 seats. I have been listening to this debate and to a considerable amount of heckling from the Government benches. I now want to put on record that on 15th November, the day on which this Bill was introduced, there were 128 interruptions in the debate from the Minister for Local Government. I have counted them.

Mr. Harte

Corrections—not interruptions.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): The Minister cannot stand hypocrisy.

Mr. Lalor

There were 128 interruptions by the Minister.

Mr. Harte

Corrections.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, Deputy Lalor, without interruption.

Mr. Lalor

On Tuesday, 27th November, the day on which the debate resumed, there were 56 interruptions by the Minister for Local Government.

Mr. Harte

Corrections.

Mr. Lalor

On Wednesday, 28th November, there were 76 interruptions by the Minister for Local Government making since the debate started—thank God, he is not here today—a grand total of 260 interruptions by the Minister for Local Government.

Mr. Harte

How many interruptions had the Deputy on the 28th?

An Ceann Comhairle

I must ask Deputy Harte to cease interrupting.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): The party opposite had a queer old interruption on the 27th.

Mr. O'Brien

The brake was on that day.

Mr. Lalor

Two hundred and fifty-six interruptions by the Minister in the debate so far.

Mr. Coughlan

There is a reason for these interruptions. The Fianna Fáil Deputies were going off the rails. They were de-railing themselves and the Minister had to intervene.

Mr. Harte

Deputy Coughlan points out the accuracy of the position.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy in possession is entitled to be heard without interruption or interjection.

Mr. Harte

Deputy Lalor said he was going to be objective.

An Ceann Comhairle

I insist the Deputy be allowed to make his contribution. These interruptions must cease.

Mr. Lalor

As I said, there have so far been 260 interruptions by the Minister for Local Government in the debate on this Bill. This is the self-same man who, in the debate on the Electoral (Amendment) Bill in 1968, said to the then Minister for Local Government at column 1816 of volume 237 of the Official Report of 4th December:

The Minister should leave me alone without interrupting and, when he comes to reply, he can speak for as long as he wants.

It is amazing how things change.

Mr. Coughlan

It is. The Deputy must be missing the old car.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Lalor

Interruptions can sometimes be a help, but I am not encouraging them. Deputy Harte said: "Not interruptions—corrections".

Mr. Harte

Right.

Mr. Lalor

I would like now to draw the attention of the House to the first day of the debate, Thursday, 15th November. When Deputy Molloy was speaking he quoted the average population per seat in Dublin and he gave a figure of 20,142. The Minister for Local Government interrupted and said:

To help Deputy Molloy, may I say the average in the West is 20,509 and in the Dublin area it is 20,840. So would the Deputy please correct his figures?

This was said with the usual sneering smile. Later on the same day, immediately after Questions, at column 2092 of volume 268 of the Official Report the Minister said:

With the permission of the Chair, I should like to make a statement. This morning in the course of Deputy Molloy's speech there was an interruption by me on the average population for Deputies in certain areas. I stated in good faith from information I got that the average population for Deputies in Dublin was 20,840. I should like to correct that: I am now informed that the correct figure is 20,142. It is only fair to put that on the record.

This was exactly the figure Deputy Molloy had quoted earlier that morning and was corrected by the Minister.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): There is a gentleman for you.

Mr. Lalor

There is a gentleman, says the Minister for Lands. Deputy Colley at this stage came in to say:

We appreciate what the Minister has said.

Deputy Colley was giving him full credit for being a gentleman, as he thought:

I heard of the incident but I did not have the precise figures. Could the Minister indicate whether what he has said means that Deputy Molloy's figure was correct?

To which Deputy Tully, the Minister for Local Government, the gentleman, replied:

No, not quite accurate.

Mr. Colley: But it was more correct than the other one.

To which the Minister, being a gentleman, responded: "Yes". Later that day Deputy Molloy, having heard what the Minister for Local Government had said and having heard——

Mr. Harte

And they all lived happily ever after.

Mr. Lalor

These are interruptions which the Deputy has already described as corrections.

Dr. Loughnane

Deputy Harte should be supporting the west.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): We gave Deputy Loughnane to Connacht.

Mr. Lalor

Deputy Molloy, according to column 2104 of the Official Report of 15th November, on a point of information, asked the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for permission to ask the Minister for Local Government a question. Deputy Molloy was duly given this permission and he said he understood that after Question Time the Minister referred to a figure which he, Deputy Molloy, had quoted and which the Minister had said earlier was wrong. The Minister subsequently gave another figure and Deputy Molloy asked for an explanation from the Minister on that.

On that occasion the Minister said he had already given the figure and he was sorry that Deputy Molloy could not find time to be in the House. That was one of those sniggering remarks we have come to expect from the Minister, Deputy Tully. It would be very easy for me tonight to say that, as this business has been ordered, it was a pity that the Minister could not be here. I appreciate why the Minister is not here tonight because he is on far more important business. Deputy Molloy pointed out to the Minister that, as he was aware, he was not present at the time. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach will appreciate that it is not very easy for the Opposition spokesman on Local Government to be in the House at all times.

Later Deputy Tully told Deputy Molloy:

"You were right and I was wrong."

The Official Report goes on:

Mr. Molloy: I was correct?

Mr. Tully: The Deputy's figure was as nearly correct as makes no matter.

Mr. Molloy: The figure I gave was 20,142. That was correct? I understood that the Minister said my figure was still not correct.

Mr. Tully: It is slightly off.

Therefore, according to Mr. Tully, the figure of 20,142 was slightly off the figure of 20,142. Are the interjections by the Minister by way of correction rather than interruptions?

Mr. Begley

Has the Deputy any objection to describing Deputy Tully as the Minister?

Mr. Lalor

That is a brilliant intervention. On a point of order, I ask for a ruling from the Chair. I know that the Minister for Local Government is to be referred to as the Minister for Local Government but I am quoting from the Official Report and that report describes the Minister as "Mr. Tully". What description am I to give?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Standing Orders of this House ordain that Members shall be referred to as Deputies and office holders shall be referred to as Ministers or Parliamentary Secretaries as the case may be. If the Deputy is quoting from the Official Report and Mr. Tully is referred to as such in that report I feel that he is quite in order to say so.

Mr. Lalor

Having been encouraged——

Dr. Loughnane

That word "encouragement" is an awful word to use. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Deputy Cruise-O'Brien used it for four hours one day. It is a bad word and I do not think it should be used in this House.

Mr. Lalor

I should now like to continue with observations on other remarks made by the Minister for Local Government in this House. In introducing this Bill the Minister drew attention to the fact that the population of the State had increased by 3.3 per cent since the census in 1966. Apparently this does not seem to have sunk in with the Deputies on the Government side who are still talking about an emigration problem that was overcome by the previous Administration. We have had this increase in population and there is no doubt but that in at least two of the counties west of the Shannon there has been a sizeable increase in population. The trend in the other counties shows that the exodus is drying up.

Mr. Harte

Is the Deputy taking credit for the increase in the population? Are the Fianna Fáil Party taking credit for this increase in population?

Mr. Lalor

We are taking credit for the fact that we stemmed the emigration flow. The 1971 census to which we are referring established the fact that the population has increased. Everybody is aware of this fact.

Mr. Coogan

Are Fianna Fáil claiming credit for everything?

Dr. Loughnane

It is a shame for a Deputy from the west of Ireland not to support Deputy Lalor in his remarks. The Deputy is quoting figures from Donegal to Clare and the population there justifies 30 seats.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Deputy Loughnane and Deputy Coogan will be on friendly terms from now on.

Mr. Harte

Is Deputy Lalor taking credit, on behalf of his party, for the increase in population and, if so, is he accepting responsibility for the decline in population up to now?

Dr. Loughnane

The population in Clare/Galway increased since I became a Member of this House.

Mr. Lalor

The details I have referred to are on the records of this House but it is obvious that Deputy Harte has not taken time to investigate them. He has not done so because the Whip on the Government side has given instruction to the Government backbenchers not to make any contribution to this debate. We had one contribution which Deputy Dowling goaded Deputy Belton into making tonight but the assistant Government Whip was sent into the House, just as he was dragged in by the dog collar yesterday, to put a note in front of Deputy Belton telling him to shut up.

Mr. Kelly

That is absolutely untrue.

Dr. Loughnane

So far Deputy Kelly has made at least 20 contributions to this debate.

Mr. Kelly

Deputy Lalor's statement is untrue.

Mr. L. Belton

What Deputy Lalor has said is untrue and I ask him to withdraw it.

Mr. Dowling

The Deputy was told to sit down and shut up.

Mr. Lalor

I have such respect for Deputy Luke Belton that if he says that what the assistant Government Whip put in front of him was not an instruction to him to shut up I accept his word.

Mr. Kelly

Would you not accept the same assurance from me?

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): This is only helping Deputy Lalor to kill time. He has no valid contribution to make.

Mr. Lalor

I have a contribution to make and I intend to show the Minister for Local Government up. I am going to show the Minister how he could do something concrete about the west instead of slicing it up.

Dr. Loughnane

Why ignore the west of Ireland when it justifies 30 seats?

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot tolerate any further interruptions in this debate, I must ask Deputies to desist from interrupting and allow the Deputy in possession to continue. This applies to every Deputy.

Dr. Loughnane

Ignore the west and build up the population of Dublin.

Mr. Lalor

The present population of the area west of the Shannon, which includes the Connacht counties, Donegal and Clare, is 574,254. That fully justifies 30 seats. The people on the Government side may say that there has been a fall in population in the west and I accept the fact that, taking those counties together, there has been a 1.6 per cent drop in population.

Mr. Finn

What about Mayo?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has asked for an orderly discussion.

Mr. Lalor

The Deputy has not said anything about Mayo and we are waiting to hear something from him about that county. However, I will give him some information about Mayo.

Mr. Finn

I have come in to say something myself.

Mr. Dowling

What has happened? The Deputy is being allowed to speak.

Dr. Loughnane

Leave it to the Leinster lads. The west is asleep.

Mr. Lalor

The Whip is allowing his backbenchers to speak. I cannot understand why the National Coalition have decided that because there was a decrease in population in those counties of 1.6 per cent they should deprive that area of one-fifteenth of its representation. We accept that some county boundaries must be breached but any unnecessary breaching should not be indulged in.

Mr. Kelly

You could not but accept it. Did Mr. Boland not make smithereens of them?

Mr. Lalor

The Minister for Local Government could, if he was interested in endeavouring to do as little border-crossing or county boundary-breaching as possible—I do not accept that 28 seats are enough for the west, but assuming 28 seats were sufficient—he could have approached the matter in a different manner, giving five seats to Donegal, four seats to Sligo-Leitrim—a full and complete Leitrim and a complete Sligo, maintaining his new position——

Mr. E. Collins

Who split Sligo-Leitrim?

Mr. Lalor

I am talking of the situation as the Minister for Local Government finds it in relation to all of the squawking we heard from this side of the House in 1968 in reference to Leitrim.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Lalor

If the spokesmen on that side of the House were not going to accept——

Mr. Harte

Does the Deputy think there should be no changes?

Mr. Lalor

Times have changed. The population has increased, thank God, as a result of Fianna Fáil policy. We heard the principles of the people opposite before but they are changing them now because they do not suit. We had a lot of lip service from the Minister for Local Government about sparing county boundaries. I can show him that, with the breaching as already introduced in Donegal——

Mr. Harte

Too late.

Mr. Lalor

It is not too late.

Mr. Dowling

Fine Gael members must do as they are told by the Labour Minister.

Mr. Lalor

I am trying to get a constructive suggestion on record in relation to the 28 seats in the west of Ireland.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Harte

I cannot hear the Deputy.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will Deputies please desist from interrupting?

Mr. Lalor

If I am allowed to complete my speech I shall show how they can have 28 Deputies in the west of Ireland and leave Sligo-Leitrim as an intact constituency without boundary-breaching. The population has changed.

Mr. E. Collins

So have the Government.

Mr. Lalor

Agreed, and so has the principle and the projected honesty of the former Opposition. Deputy Reynolds, sitting up in the back was squawking a few minutes ago. I am telling Deputy Reynolds——

Mr. Reynolds

Keep it cool.

Mr. Lalor

They said they could not hear me a few minutes ago. That is why I am shouting.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Lalor

Deputy Reynolds is reneging on the people of Leitrim because he snatched a seat and he is afraid of losing it back to Deputy Joe MacLaughlin. That is why he does not want Leitrim and Sligo——

Mr. Reynolds

It was Brian Lenihan I put out, for your information.

Mr. Lalor

You are afraid of going out yourself.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

If there are Deputies in the House who find it difficult to listen to what another Deputy has to say they have a remedy.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

I appeal to the Government Whip to control this Deputy.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may leave that to the Chair.

Mr. Lalor

If the truth is going to provoke any Government Deputy I am sorry if they cannot accept it. The position improved from 1971. It is disimproving now, of course, because there is no money and shortly there will be no people left. County Sligo has a population of 50,275.

Mr. Coogan

They are not all Fianna Fáil.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

The constant barracking of a Deputy in possession from any side of the House is not only unfair and unjust but is disorderly in the extreme.

Mr. Lalor

I needed that protection, thank you. I have been endeavouring to do a sum for the back benchers with a view to their conveying the information to the Minister for Local Government when he returns. The population of Sligo in 1961—it is higher now since we opened Snia (Ireland) Ltd. which gives valuable employment—was 50,275. The population of Leitrim— I know Manorhamilton and surrounding districts and Carrick-on-Shannon are also improving—was 28,360, making a total population in the area of 78,635. Add to that the slice which the Minister for Local Government has stolen from Donegal in order to make sure that it will not be two three-seaters, a total of 2,835 votes, making in all 81,470. Sligo-Leitrim can be a distinct four-seat constituency with no border breaching as far as it is concerned. You have the complete county of Sligo and the complete county of Leitrim making a four-seat constituency which no Deputy on the Government side likes. The logical thing to say is: "That is grand if you can continue it." I move on then to the situation in Roscommon-Mayo. We have already five seats in Donegal and four in Sligo-Leitrim making nine. I am sorry to have to count it out——

Mr. Harte

It is all right as long as the Deputy understands it.

Mr. Lalor

We had somebody here from Mayo but he has gone. In Mayo we have 109,525 people and in Roscommon 53,519 which means that in the area it is possible to have eight seats giving five to Mayo and three to Roscommon with a very small incursion across the Mayo border. Deputy Mrs. Burke was rather worried about Roscommon having lost some land back to Athlone. That brings us to the third part of that area. We already have nine seats and eight seats making 17. We have another 11 seats to distribute and we have two counties.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Lalor

We have another 11 seats to distribute and we have two counties, Galway and Clare. I know this is annoying the Government because they are putting it up to the Minister for Local Government——

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is appealing to Deputies' sense of fair play to allow the Deputy in possession to speak without interruption.

Mr. Harte

He has ten minutes to be constructive.

Mr. Lalor

The population of Galway is 149,223 and the population of Clare is 75,008, making a total population of 224,231. This entitles that two-county area to 11 seats. Clare is only 2,000 votes short to make it eligible for a four-seater. It should be possible to have four seats in East Galway, three in West Galway and four in Clare. In that context it would be necessary to borrow a small piece of Galway to make up the four-seater in Clare.

Dr. Loughnane

It does not really matter because the same man will get that seat, whether it is in Galway or Clare.

An Cheann Comhairle

I doubt if Deputy Loughnane is helping the Deputy in possession. He is certainly not helping the Chair.

Mr. Lalor

I want to show that even though the Government filched two seats from the west, if they wished they could have arranged for the minimum breach of county boundaries. The suggestion I have made would cover that area with only three minor breaches. I agree that 2,000 people were dislocated in South Donegal, as were people in South East Mayo and South Galway but it was much less than the total dislocation that is taking place now. Despite the protestations, the crocodile tears and the abuse the former Minister for Local Government received——

Mr. Harte

Which former Minister?

Mr. Lalor

He received dog's abuse from the other side of the House. Last night the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs told us to forget the past.

Mr. Harte

Which former Minister is the Deputy referring to?

An Ceann Comhairle

I would ask Deputy Harte to desist.

Mr. Lalor

If Deputy Harte continued to rise on points of information from now until doomsday we would not be able to penetrate the thickness with the information.

Mr. Harte

It would be a challenge for the Deputy but perhaps if he tried hard enough it could be done.

Mr. Lalor

I would need six inch nails.

Mr. Harte

Perhaps the Deputy is a better authority on six inch nails than he is on making speeches.

Mr. Lalor

So far I have not been able to make my speech without ignorant interruptions.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

I would ask Deputies not to engage in a slanging match, please.

Mr. Lalor

I have outlined the situation as objectively as I can. There is one intellegent man on the other side—I do business with him every day.

Dr. Loughnane

He is one of the wise men from the east.

An Ceann Comhairle

I would appeal to Deputies to allow the speaker in possession to continue without interruption.

Mr. Lalor

Apart from the attack on the western areas by the Government and the loss of two seats because of the continued support of the people for Fianna Fáil——

Mr. O'Brien

The Deputy's party robbed them of their population.

Mr. Lalor

The Government are robbing them of their birthright. It is obvious that the Dublin-dominated Cabinet have had their way. The Government have shown their animosity not only towards the west of Ireland but towards rural Ireland. Kildare, which has a population of 71,977 with three seats, is also being robbed. The population of Meath is 71,729 but because the Minister for Local Government had his seat almost snatched from him on the last occasion, he robs Kildare, which is entitled to greater representation, slips it into Meath and gives the rest of Kildare to Dublin. Deputy Andrews quoted this evening the speech of the Minister for Local Government when he was in Opposition when he challenged the then Minister to add to County Meath a bit of County Dublin. Instead of taking from Dublin, the Minister now robs Kildare and Wicklow. In fact, a great slice is taken from North Kildare to ensure that the former Deputy, Terry Boylan, will not be sent back to this House by the people of Kildare. As proof of that we had Deputy Malone coming into the House, saying he was very sorry for the people in Kildare.

Debate adjourned.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 6th December, 1973.