asked the Minister for Education when the instruction to civil servants regarding the treatment of inquiries by Dáil Deputies was first issued; and the dates on which it was subsequently renewed.
Ceisteann—Questions. Oral Answers. - Dáil Deputies Inquiries.
13.
Mr. R. Burke
I am unable to give the precise date on which the instruction referred to was first issued, but I understand that it was some time in the middle thirties.
The instruction has been brought to the notice of the staff of my Department from time to time and, most recently, on 2nd November of this year.
Can the Minister say whether this instruction was made orally or in writing?
Mr. R. Burke
It was made in writing.
What I wish to bring to the attention of the House is that during my term of office no such direction was issued. I regarded all Deputies as being responsible people who were capable of looking after the interests of their constituencies.
The Deputy is making a statement.
Also, I regard the officials as being people capable of dealing with such matters as this.
The Deputy is completely out of order in making statements.
May I ask the Minister if, during my term of office he had any discussions with officials of my Department and, if so, whether he was referred for permission to my office by the officials concerned?
Mr. R. Burke
I had discussions and I was so referred.
Thank you. Therefore, would it not be proper that it should be recognised that no such directive was issued during my term of office?
Mr. R. Burke
Could I ask the Deputy if he was Minister on 5th December, 1972?
I know of no directive which was issued.
Mr. R. Burke
I do not wish to put any of the internal matters of the Department on the records of the House because that would be an unusual precedent. If the Deputy will accept my decision not to do so, I think it will be in the best interests of everyone.
Does the Minister agree that civil servants in the Department of Education can answer queries from the general public but not from Deputies? Is that the position?
Mr. R. Burke
The position is that communications from public representatives to my Department should come to the ministerial office where they will be given top priority.
The general public can get the answer to anything from civil servants but Deputies cannot. Is that the position?
Mr. R. Burke
They can phone the Department and I presume they would be put in touch with the sections.
Is what I stated the position?
Am I to take it that what the Minister is saying is that, while I can ring any other Department and get information on various grants or anything I want to inquire about within the discretion of the officials, if I ring the Department of Education about any matter on behalf of a constituent I will be told: "I cannot give you the information. You had better inquire in the Minister's office." Is this the position?
Mr. R. Burke
The Deputy can ring the private secretary to the Minister and he will be put in touch with the official at the highest level who will deal fully with his query.
If I do not like that method of doing business—and from experience of ringing other Ministers' offices at the moment and Parliamentary Secretaries' offices at the moment, I have good reason to dislike it—will I be debarred from getting legitimate information which any Tom, Dick or Harry can get? Is this the position?
Mr. R. Burke
Of course, it depends on what information the Deputy requests.
All information.
We cannot resolve this matter today. This must be a final supplementary.
Is all information barred or is there a selective barring?
Mr. R. Burke
There is no barring of information. I give Deputies a personal guarantee that, if they get in touch with my ministerial office, they will be put through to the section directly and put through to the person best able to give them the information.
Question No. 14.
Surely we are entitled to ask supplementaries on a matter such as this.
That is a matter for the Chair to decide.
(Cavan): There is nothing new about this.
I would like to ask a supplementary.
This matter has been ventilated sufficiently.
The Chair is being selective.
(Interruptions.)
This is a serious matter. We would like to spend the same amount of time on this as on previous questions.
I have allowed Deputy Faulkner and Deputy Cunningham a goodly number of supplementaries. Deputy Power.
(Cavan): There is nothing new about this. When the late Donogh O'Malley was in the Office of Public Works——
Ask your backbenchers. They were never refused.
If Deputy Power does not get in quickly, I am passing on to the next question.
(Interruptions.)
Order. Deputy Cunningham and the Minister will please resist.
Will the Minister agree that when one is used to dealing with the Department of Education and knows the proper person to contact, it is a waste of time to ring that person and be referred to the Minister's office and then referred back to the proper person? The Minister said that it would all depend on the type of information being sought. Is he now turning his office into a shunting station where questions will be screened?
I hope Deputy Power will not abuse the privilege I gave him.
There is a suggestion of bugging and begging in that type of activity.
Mr. R. Burke
There is no such suggestion.
The Minister has stated that he had discussions with officials of my Department and that he was not referred to my office. Therefore, it is right that it should be inferred from this that no Deputies who made representations to my Department were referred to my office irrespective of whether they were in Government or in Opposition.