Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Mar 1974

Vol. 271 No. 4

Private Members' Business. - Electoral (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 1973: Committee Stage (Resumed).

Debate resumed on amendment a. 1.:

In page 3, subsection (1) (a), line 20, after "districts" to insert "within such specified constituency".

—(Deputy Molloy.)

Mr. R.P. Burke

Before Private Members' Time I was making the point that the four words in the amendment suggested by Deputy Molloy, "within such specified constituency", would improve the wording of the section as suggested by the Minister and his parliamentary draftsmen. The main point, one which has been made by the Minister, is that this section reads as similar sections read from 1935 to 1969 and, consequently, in the view of the Minister, because of this they were sacred and should be repeated in this Bill.

The point made on this side of the House was that if the Opposition between 1935 and 1969 were not prepared to examine the Bills introduced during that time line by line, as was their duty, so be it but that does not mean that the legislation from 1935 to 1969 was perfect. We will have tomorrow morning the introduction of a Bill——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy may not anticipate what is not before the House.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I gather it is on the Order Paper.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are dealing with the business on today's Order Paper.

Mr. R.P. Burke

In dealing with the Bills introduced between 1935 and 1969 I should like to point out that one of those was found to be unconstitutional and a Bill altering it had to be introduced. We are not saying that this Bill is unconstitutional but that the four words suggested in Deputy Molloy's amendment would improve the section so that the man-in-the-street who is referred to in the Bill can read it without any difficulty. The wording of the Bill, because it caters for the man-in-the-street should be clear and simple. Earlier the Minister admitted that these words did not do any harm.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Tully)

They do not do any good.

Mr. R.P. Burke

If these words do no harm it will meet the wishes of this party if the Minister includes them in the section. This is a specific section and our amendment is designed to clarify for the man-in-the-street—when I say "man" in this context I mean those eligible to vote —the exact position. It will also clarify the position for school children interested in civics and electoral law and those anxious to know their rights when they attain the age of 18. It is important that school children should be able to understand such legislation.

I am aware that this Bill was drafted by the parliamentary draftsmen in the Attorney General's office, fine decent men doing an honourable job and without whom we could not operate in this House. However, they are lawyers and the person for whom we are trying to cater in our amendment is the average citizen who should, in any legislation, be able to understand what is in it. He should be able to pick it up and immediately understand what is in it for him, what he will agree to and what he will object to.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will relate these remarks to amendment a.1.

Mr. R.P. Burke

The four words that are suggested by Deputy Molloy in this amendment "within such specified constituencies" would in my view improve this legislation considerable for the man-in-the-street. If you look at the section as it stands it has a side note "Temporary arrangements with respect to certain districts". First of all, the words "temporary arrangements with respect to certain polling districts" in my view, are misleading.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy, we are not dealing with the section. We are dealing with amendment a.1.

Mr. R.P. Burke

Thank you, but I want to show that the section as proposed by the Minister lacks clarity and lacks the language of the common man. It is ambiguous without this amendment. It should be the aim of both the Dáil and the Seanad to ensure that our legislation goes through in language which can be understood by ordinary people. I am sure this matter will be debated in the Seanad because I know that some of my colleagues in that House feel very strongly about those four words which clarify the section for the man-in-the-street.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must not be repetitive.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I did not intend to be repetitive. I was merely referring to what I anticipate will happen in the Upper House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is a bad thing to anticipate.

Mr. R.P. Burke

My apologies. It is not my intention to go against your ruling.

Mr. Tully

Can we take it that the matter is nearly played out?

Mr. Crowley

Let the Minister accept the amendment.

Mr. R.P. Burke

Comments like that from the Minister, the sly innuendo that this side of the House have put down this amendment, as he said earlier, with the motive of prolonging this debate as long as possible, will not speed this legislation through the House.

Mr. Tully

I was being charitable when I said that.

Mr. R.P. Burke

This legislation can be speeded through the House if the Minister would accept this amendment which he has admitted will do no harm. Our feeling on this matter is reflected very strongly by the number of Deputies who have made contributions on the amendment. They have offered their contributions in good faith despite what the Minister has said and despite his suggestion that it was merely a delaying tactic by the Fianna Fáil Party. The amendment clarifies what is in subsection (1) (a) If you read this subsection——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair has already read it.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I have no doubt about that.

Mr. Tully

It is a pity Deputy Burke did not read it before he started.

Mr. R.P. Burke

The section as it stands is loose in its meaning. It was set out in terms like that in the 1935 Act. We have seen many changes in the country since then, both economic and other changes.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am sure the Deputy will help the Chair by sticking to amendment a. 1.

Mr. R.P. Burke

The point I am making is that just as we have seen so many changes in the way of life in Ireland we have seen changes in the interpretation of Bills. We would improve the wording of the 1935 Act and the other Acts up to the 1969 Act by the introduction of this amendment. The Minister admitted that there is no harm in this amendment. Therefore, I cannot see why he should delay this House in the manner in which he is delaying it by those stonewall tactics with regard to those four words which we feel very strongly are a great improvement on the wording of section 7.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair would appeal to the Deputy not to be repetitive.

Mr. R.P. Burke

It is not my intention to be over-repetitive. I appeal to the Minister to accept Deputy Molloy's amendment. We are sorry he is not with us today. He is sick, as I mentioned earlier.

Mr. Tully

Again.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I am sure the Minister will send his good wishes to him just as we send our good wishes to him.

Mr. Tully

He was quite well on Sunday afternoon when I spent some time with him.

Mr. R.P. Burke

He has the 'flu which is going around at the moment. In his absence we are pressing the amendment which he proposed and to which he gave a lot of consideration. This amendment was put down in good faith despite what the Minister has suggested.

Mr. Tully

May I again, with your permission, point out that this amendment would not do any harm and would do no good. I am not going to accept the amendment just because some of the earlier speakers on the Opposition said it would please them. That was a ridiculous suggestion. There have been so many irrelevancies dragged into the debate that one might get the impression that we were dealing with something very important. In effect we are discussing section 7 (1) which states:

Where a polling district existing at the passing of this Act is not wholly situate within one of the constituencies specified in the Schedule to this Act, the appropriate officer, after consultation with the returning officer for the constituency concerned, shall, with respect to the part of the polling district situate in a constituency so specified—

(a) join it or parts of it with any adjoining polling district or districts, or

It is quite obvious that it must be within a constituency and it must be joined with any other polling district or part of a polling district within that constituency. How anybody in his sane and sober senses could imagine that the addition of the four words suggested, and about which we heard so much talk the other day and again today, would improve that in any way beats me.

I am being reasonable about this and I think the Opposition have had their fun. They had two-and-a-half hours the last day, two hours up to 6 o'clock today and 20 minutes since 7.30. They should realise that this type of thing is not doing any good for this House. If the Opposition want to put it to a vote let us do so or if they want to withdraw it, which as reasonable men they should, OK. It is ridiculous that we should continue with this debate. You and the Ceann Comhairle have had extreme patience listening to repetition again and again. The same thing is being repeated not alone by one person but by the person who follows him.

In view of the fact that this amendment is unimportant and only refers to something which everybody admits cannot improve the Bill we should conclude the debate on it now. The only reason the Opposition have asked specially to have the amendment included is that earlier today they said they would like those four words put in. It would lengthen the subsection by four words and for that reason they would like to have the amendment inserted. It is asking a little too much to ask us to continue wasting the time of the House in discussing this further.

Mr. Moore

I have listened to the Minister's plea. This gives him a great opportunity of being really big in this matter. We are doing our job as a serious Opposition. We are pointing out what we believe is a weakness in this section. There are only four words in Deputy Molloy's amendment. While I am no grammarian I can see no difficulty about interpreting them. I take it that "within" is a preposition and "such" is a pronoun of some kind. The Minister says that the effect they would have on this section is small but it is our considered opinion that those four words are necessary to make this a better piece of legislation. That is no reflection on the drafting or on the Minister but we had Acts challenged in the Supreme Court and we are trying to indemnify the Oireachtas against such action by outraged citizens so that we will not have to go to the Supreme Court to test the validity of this section. The Minister should accept our four word amendment. Our attitude this evening has been one of good-will and the Minister has not been so bad himself. He should go further. It is now eight o'clock. He should accept our amendment and let us then get on with the rest of the Bill. When the Bill has been passed, as I am sure it will be, the Minister will feel much more satisfied if he has listened with earnestness to our plea and met our constructive approach to this amendment. We have done all we can to meet him. We look forward to the Minister accepting this amendment. We think it will improve the section.

Mr. Lalor

We on this side feel very strongly about this amendment and we resent very much the Minister's claim that its purpose is to delay the passage of the Bill. I have indicated that we want to oppose this gerrymandering Bill as much as we possibly can.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must keep to the amendment.

Mr. Lalor

I have endeavoured to keep to the amendment but the Minister stood up and said that the purpose of our amendment was to delay the Bill although it has been pointed out to him on a number of occasions that if he wants to proceed with the Bill all he has to do is accept the amendment. He agrees that it would do no harm to the Bill. Why should the Minister continue to say——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair is hoping that the Deputy will argue in favour of his amendment.

Mr. Tully

He cannot.

Mr. Lalor

The best argument I can use is to pick up the Minister's own argument when he said that he saw nothing wrong with it.

Mr. Tully

I did not say any such thing. I said it would not do any good.

Mr. Crowley

The Minister said it would not do any harm.

Mr. Lalor

I am speaking on behalf of 68 Deputies of this House. We believe this amendment would do some good. The Minister believes it is a Tweedledum Tweedledee situation. That is new. That is not repetition.

Mr. Tully

Congratulations.

Mr. Lalor

He says it makes no difference. We disagree with him. We could have tabled a number of amendments if our intention was to use amendments to slow up the Bill. The Minister has accused my colleagues and I of filibustering. We have our own ideas about filibustering. We can talk at length on other subjects but the reason we are fighting for this amendment with such dedication is that we believe in it. The more I read the section the more I am convinced that our amendment is vitally necessary. The Minister read the full section in making the point that our amendment was obstructive and unnecessary. If I could get him to read that section about three more times, I believe he would come around to our way of thinking on this. The necessity for our amendment only arises in relation to a polling district which has been broken in two, three or four pieces arising from the creation of new constituencies. We believe that subsection (1) (a) needs the addition of the words "within such specified constituency". It is in the context of a triple break in the polling district that we think those words are so vital. Our party discussed this at length before the amendment was put down by our spokesman, Deputy Molloy, but as this debate continues I more and more appreciate the vital necessity for those four words. I presume that the Minister in the hour-and-a-half break was so fed up with the discussion that he did not give much thought to this amendment but I feel that if he did he would become convinced that this would bring a vital benefit, not a theoretical benefit. This is not a case of giving way to Fianna Fáil for the sake of saying that we contributed to this Bill. I say categorically that I do not want in any way to contribute to this Bill but if we are to have an unjustifiable piece of legislation it might as well be 100 per cent unjustifiable. That is the academic interest I have in it. The Minister is so insulting in referring to contributions from this side that there is no reason why I should not put on record my views on his Bill but in order to cross the Ts and dot the Is properly I am becoming more and more interested in trying to ensure that this section is properly constructed. This is why we are so industrious in trying to see that the Minister does not make a mistake that he will only appreciate in 12 months' time.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I have spoken a number of times on this amendment of Deputy Molloy's which proposes the addition of four words to subsection (1) (a), "within such specified constituency". I have here the Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English edited by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, based on the Oxford Dictionary. It is the fifth edition provided by E. McIntosh. I refer to the meaning given there of the word “constituency” which is one of the four words contained in “within such specified constituency”. “Constituency” is defined as “a body of voters who elect a representative member, a division of, a county or division of a borough returning an MP, a place, a body of residents in a place so represented, a body of customers, subscribers, et cetera”.

You then come to "constituent" which is derived from the word and it is defined as (1) composing, making up a whole, appointing, electing, able to frame or alter a political constitution, and (2) one who appoints another his agent, component part, member of a constituency, et cetera. I think “one who appoints another his agent” is very important because as Members of this Oireachtas we are appointed as agents of the people and as such have a duty to examine legislation on their behalf, legislation which affects them. As Deputies, we are merely agents of the people and when legislation comes before the House we have a duty to clarify it. As defined by the Oxford Dictionary a constituency is a body of voters who elect a representative member. This is definite, clear, concise wording by the very title of the book which is the Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are dealing with polling districts, not constituencies.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I am coming to the amendment with which we are dealing, not the polling districts, with respect. We shall get to polling districts later, some time next week. As I see it, the constituency has to be specified in accordance with the meaning of the word as defined in the Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English, a body of voters who elect a representative member. Without the amendment we have put down which says: “within such specified constituency”, if we join it or part of it with any adjoining polling district or districts, you are left in doubt as to which constituency the section refers to. With these four words we are attempting to specify. This is very important when one has regard to the meaning of the word “constituency” and, consequently, the meaning of the word “constituent”. As the agents of our constituents represented by a constituency—and we have three in some areas, four in others and five in other areas——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Deputy relate these remarks to the amendment?

Mr. R.P. Burke

I relate them in this way. It is essential that the four words "within such specified constituency" should be put in so that we can—I think it is our duty—show to the people in our constituency what is in our minds. They can take up this Bill and see exactly what was in the minds of the legislators. There are many solicitors and barristers who make a great deal of money interpreting Acts of this Dáil. We are trying to leave the legislation so that there can be no doubt in anybody's mind as to what is in our minds if we pass this legislation eventually. We should all like the Minister to accept these four words which I am tired saying and which, I am sure, the Chair is tired hearing, so that we could move to the next section and amendment. It would be much easier for all concerned if the Minister would accept the good faith in which we put down this amendment. He said himself that it does not do any harm and it would be much simpler if he would accept the view of the largest political party in the country representing the greatest number of voters. As their representatives and agents as defined by the Oxford Dictionary, agents of this vast number of people, we are asking the Minister, not as individuals, to insert this amendment so that those who voted for our party, those who want clarification of this by the Minister accepting the four words “within such specified constituency” would be satisfied.

Last week the Minister introduced legislation and in his Second Reading speech he said he was prepared to consider any amendments put forward——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are not now concerned with last week's legislation.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I am merely saying that at that time the Minister was sweet and reasonable about proposed amendments. We feel this amendment will strengthen and clarify the section as it stands in this Bill. The Minister agrees that it will do no harm but he refuses to accept it. We are a democracy. When the Minister was on this side of the House, he spoke on various sections of various pieces of legislation in his long number of years here. On many occasions he was very sorry the Minister would not accept what he thought was a reasonable amendment. The Minister has the reputation of being a reasonable man; we saw his picture in the newspapers recently in Leisureland and I am sure the people in Galway also thought he was reasonable. We have four reasonable words, not too long, which we would like to have inserted in the section. The word "within" is harmless in itself; the word "such" as interpreted by the Concise Oxford Dictionary——

Mr. J. Gibbons

Perhaps the Deputy will read us the definition.

Mr. R.P. Burke

It is long and I do not want to delay the House.

Mr. Moore

The Deputy has been asked to read the definition.

Mr. Tully

Deputy Moore was always a good man for dictionary meanings.

Mr. R.P. Burke

If the Minister is going to speak about dictionary meanings, we could mention the famous occasion when the word "encourage" was being discussed.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair would like the Deputy to speak on the amendment.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I do not wish to delay the House in defining the meaning of the word "such". However, there are a few points I might mention in relation to this word. The dictionary states "... in a legal or formal style of the aforesaid kind whoever shall make such return falsely ...". It has legalistic connotations and it is important to remember this fact. For this reason we want to insert the word in this legislation. There have been too many "legal eagles" earning too much money at the expense of the citizens with regard to legislation enacted by the Dáil and the Seanad. When this legislation eventually is passed we want it to be as clear and concise as possible. The amendment put down by Deputy Molloy, which refers to four specific words, will clarify and improve the legislation. It will avoid much unnecessary expense at a later stage. We have experience in the House of legislation which has been found to be unconstitutional, including a previous Electoral Bill. We do not want that to happen in this case.

If the Minister accepts the amendment in the name of our spokesman for Local Government, he could avoid many problems in the courts in the future. He could avoid putting unnecessary expense on citizens and, most important, he could ensure that the legislation is equally understood by the ordinary elector who is affected by this Bill. I appeal once again to the Minister to reconsider his attitude He has told us the amendment would not do any harm.

Mr. Tully

Deputy Burke brought with him a copy of Chambers's Dictionary to assist him in the debate but if he had paused for a minute he would have realised that the definition of “constituency” in an English dictionary refers to that country where there are one-seat constituencies and, therefore, it has no relevance to this Bill. The Deputy should have taken the trouble to read the Bill. The trouble is that people do not bother to read it——

Mr. R.P. Burke

I have read it a number of times.

Mr. Tully

Section 3 (2) reads as follows:

An area specified in the Schedule to this Act shall be taken to be that area as constituted on the 1st day of January, 1973, but if any doubt arises as to the constituency in which any townland or part thereof, any road or street or part thereof, or any part of a ward, is included, the doubt shall be determined by the Minister.

Section 4 states:

A constituency specified in the Schedule to this Act shall return the number of members set out in respect thereof in the third column of that Schedule.

So far as this House is concerned a constituency is whatever is decided by the Oireachtas. If the Deputy had remembered that and had read the Bill before speaking, he could have saved himself and the House the trouble of going through Chambers' Dictionary which has no relevance to the matter we are discussing.

I hate being repetitive but it is impossible to answer the same arguments made by numerous Members opposite without doing this. They have been saying the Bill would be improved by the addition of four words but my reply from the start, and it has not changed, was that it would make no difference except to make the Bill four words longer. I do not think that is a good reason to alter a Bill before this House.

I have said on a number of occasions, and on other Bills I have proved it, that provided a reasonable amendment is suggested I have no objection whatever to considering it and, if necessary, including it in the Bill. What annoys me is that there are intelligent people here, elected representatives, who must know that what they are saying has not the ring of common sense. They have been repeating the same thing again and again, that if the four words were included it would make all the difference. As I said at the start, no polling district can straddle a constituency boundary and, therefore, it would not be open to a city manager or county secretary to do other than what is proposed in the amendment. As it stands, the people who will be drawing up a constituency cannot do other than what is proposed in the amendment. There is neither sense nor reason in the continuous repetition that the section should be amended by adding the four words.

I do not think it fair that this kind of thing should be done. Deputy Lalor said I was accusing him and the Opposition of deliberately holding up the business of the House. If he or his colleagues could give me another name for what they are doing, for talking on this matter for five-and-a-quarter hours—which they must know is sheer, utter nonsense—I should like to hear it. I think we have had enough of it and I ask that the question be now put.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair cannot accept that motion until the Ceann Comhairle is in the House.

Mr. Moore

I disagree with the Minister's attitude to Deputy Burke's contribution. I regard the fact that the Deputy brought a dictionary with him to help him in his arguments as a tribute to the Minister and the Bill. The Deputy is taking the matter so seriously he is not satisfied with his own knowledge or belief. Plato, a most ardent republican, went to endless trouble to ensure the wording of a document was correct. Two years ago in this House the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs—he was then in Opposition—opposed a Bill and informed the House that he would speak for nine hours to define two words "encourage" and "incite". We were debating the Forcible Entry Bill. I listened to Deputy Cruise-O'Brien, as he then was, for the best part of six hours. He used 13 volumes of the Oxford English Dictionary.

Mr. Tully

Eleven volumes actually.

Mr. Moore

Eleven volumes of the Oxford English Dictionary in order to define the two words “encourage or incite”. Deputy Burke's contribution from the dictionary tonight was short and to the point. I must compliment him on it and on the painstaking effort he made to drive home his argument as to why the Minister should accept this very simple amendment. We have spent a great deal of time on it. We believe it is necessary. Deputy Molloy feels strongly about this and, in his absence through illness, we have supported his amendment here. If the Minister wants to apply the guillotine, that is normal parliamentary procedure and we do not resent it.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I resent it.

Mr. Tully

One member of the Opposition has reservations.

Mr. Moore

I do not resent it and the reason I do not resent it is that I want to show how much more broad-minded we are in Opposition than was the present Minister for Posts and Telegraphs when he wasted the time of the House for nine solid hours defining two words. Which is the better Opposition? Is it those who are here at the moment or was it the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs when he was over here?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Moore on amendment a. 1 now.

Mr. Moore

I was merely illustrating the position. I must pay tribute to the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for sitting so patiently listening to the very intelligent arguments from this side of the House. I think they reach the highwater mark of common sense. The reputation of the House would benefit greatly if the Minister even now were to accept the amendment. It is as easy as that. If the Minister accepts the amendment, we will meet him every way we possibly can on the Bill, not just to please the Minister, though that would be a pleasure, but in order to enact here the best piece of legislation we can.

Deputy Burke referred to what happened when we passed faulty legislation. There is a trend at the moment for people to challenge legislation. That is their right. It would, however, be infinitely better if we were to make the legislation we pass here as perfect as it is humanly possible to make it. The addition of these four words would make this section much more efficient. If we examine each subsequent section with the same meticulous care, we will be able to join with the Minister in saying we have done a good job. If the Minister accepts the amendment we will be doing a good job. We are not seeking after victor or vanquished in this debate. All we want to do is to see common sense triumph. It will be a triumph of common sense if the Minister accepts the amendment. There has been no bitterness in this debate. We have made our case and the Minister has made his case. The Minister does not regard the amendment as necessary. We think it is. The Minister has had to carry the burden alone. We had six or seven speakers on this side of the House. We had the collective wisdom and intelligence of the Members here. That should influence the Minister in accepting the amendment.

Mr. Tully

Sir, I ask that the question be now put. We have had five-and-a-quarter hours' discussion on a very frivolous amendment.

Mr. Lalor

Can we take the Minister's word that we have spent five-and-a-quarter hours discussing this amendment?

Mr. Tully

Five hours and 20 minutes actually.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Mr. Lalor

I move amendment a.a.1:

In page 3, subsection (1) (b), line 22, after "for it" to add "within such constituency".

Section 7 (1) (b) would then read:

constitute it as a polling district and appoint a polling place for it within such constituency.

This is a corollary to the amendment we have been discussing. I still insist that that amendment was justified and I maintain that this amendment is equally justified though, were we to prevail upon the Minister to accept this amendment, he would of necessity have to amend the Bill for Report Stage in regard to subsection (a) to include the words he has already rejected. It is obvious that the Minister will not be anxious to accept this amendment.

It is possible that the Minister might, unpredictably, accept this amendment. It is put forward as an amendment to a specific section. In order to make sense of the amendment one must accept the fact that we are anxious to cut out the danger of ambiguity in relation to the specific constituency which is spelled out in the principal paragraph of section 1. This section deals with the particular arrangements which have been made following the breaking up of the constituency.

This subsection which we propose to amend indicates that a portion of a polling district will be created as a polling district in the new constituency into which it has been placed. Our amendment will more clearly identify the placing of this portion of the old polling district. The addition of the words "within such constituency" is necessary to avoid ambiguity.

This section deals with a polling district which was in existence at the time of the passing of this Act in an existing constituency, say, the present constituency of Dublin South-West. That constituency is being done away with. In the Crumlin area of Dublin at present, there is a polling district situated in Dublin South-West. Arising from the gerrymander of Dublin City we have the situation whereby that particular polling district is divided. Part of it is in Dublin/Ballyfermot, part in West County Dublin and part in Dublin/Rathmines West. According to this section where a polling district—let us call it Crumlin —existing at the passing of this Act finishes up being not wholly situate within one of the constituencies specified in the Schedule to this Act, the appropriate officer—the appropriate officer is spelt out further down as being the manager—after consultation with the returning officer for the constituency concerned, shall with respect to the part of the polling district situate in a constituency so specified, constitute it as a polling district and appoint a polling place for it.

Under the terms of section 7, part of the old Crumlin polling district is in Dublin/Ballyfermot, part in Dublin West County Dublin and part in Dublin/Rathmines West. I cannot understand who is the appropriate officer for the Crumlin district which is split into three different constituencies. I do not know in which constituency the particular polling district is considered to be the appropriate area for the appropriate officer. There is such a degree of ambiguity in this section, in the identification of the appropriate officer for the appropriate section of an aforementioned polling district, that it is impossible to say that the appropriate officer in respect of the part of the polling district situated in a constituency so specified will constitute that portion of the old polling district as a polling district and appoint a polling place for it.

There are three new polling districts to be created out of one old polling district. Therefore, it is necessary to add the words "within such constituency". By spelling out "within such constituency" one is clearly indicating that there is a situation wherein there is a portion of the old polling district within Dublin/ Rathmines West now, a portion of the old South-West polling district within West County Dublin now, and a portion of the old Crumlin polling district within Dublin/Ballyfermot now. Assuming it was divided equally there would be a third in Ballyfermot, a third in West County Dublin and a third in Dublin/Rathmines West. Unless it is spelled out in subsection (b) of this section that each of those areas have to be dealt with within such constituencies, there will be a degree of ambiguity which could mean that the appropriate officer for the Dublin/ Ballyfermot district could find himself constituting a polling district and appointing a polling place for the portion of this Crumlin area which will have been embraced in the Dublin/Rathmines West area.

That is the best way I can get my message across to the Minister. I wanted to clarify this point for the Minister on our first amendment but I did not get the opportunity of presenting that new facet to him because he decided to guillotine the debate. I was trying to spell out the mistake he was making but he could not wait. It had to be guillotined. I am trying to give an example of where the problem can be created. You can have exactly the same situation in a polling district somewhere between Booterstown and Mount Merrion which will be embraced in the Dublin South-East, Dublin South County and Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown constituencies. The same type of situation can arise in the Ormond Quay area where Dublin North-Central links in with Dublin (Cabra) and across the river in Dublin South-Central. You could have an old polling district which was in the old Dublin North-Central area with portion of it now in Dublin (Cabra), portion of it in Dublin South-Central and portion of it in Dublin North-Central. We should clear up any possible ambiguity that may arise, with the possibility of returning officers and appropriate officers, those who will be having consultations with the returning officers, walking on each other's corns and claiming jurisdiction over an area over which they may not have jurisdiction, and for which they may not be responsible for issuing registration forms.

We suggest the addition of the words "within such constituency" to section 7 (1) (b) "constitute it as a polling district and appoint a polling place for it". It is easier to explain this than it was in the case of the previous amendment because on subsection (a) we were talking about the possibility of portion of a polling district being assumed into an adjoining polling district in a new constituency. On paragraph (b) we are talking about a more solid portion, a more sizeable portion of the old polling district which can justify the creation of a polling place in its own right which, to follow the Minister's argument in 1969 would constitute the creation of an individual polling place. I do not want to quote the reference again in case the Minister might accuse me of——

Mr. Tully

——being wrong again. You are, in fact.

Mr. Lalor

No, I am not. We learned from our Bible that there was only one perfect man but we discovered over the past 12 months that there is a second, Deputy James Tully, Minister for Local Government, representative of County Meath. This has nothing to do with the Schedule and I will not develop it.

An Ceann Comhairle

We must avoid personalities and get back to the amendment.

Mr. Lalor

The personalities are introduced by the Minister. There are 68 Deputies on this side of the House.

Mr. Tully

There were only 54 to vote a few minutes ago.

Mr. Lalor

The Minister is satisfied that each and every one of the 68 Deputies on this side of the House is a clot.

Mr. Tully

I never said that.

Mr. Lalor

Give the Minister enough time. When a Deputy stands up here to make a speech, before he is finished there will be an intervention from the Minister indicating that the Deputy is anything but a clever man and that all the genius is on the other side.

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us get back to the amendment.

Mr. Lalor

I will co-operate as fully as I possibly can so long as I get proper replies from the Minister, intelligent interventions and non-insulting ones, I will rise to the insults and I will not react in the manner in which the Minister wants me to react.

I am endeavouring to get a message across, the message not only of the justification but the vital necessity for inserting this amendment into the section. As presented to the House, the paragraph speaks of constituting a polling district situated in a new constituency as a polling district and appointing a polling place for it. It is necessary to have the words "within such constituency" added in order to obviate the danger of a situation arising in which portion of an old polling district within a new constituency could have the appropriate officer from the adjoining constituency appointing a polling place for it or linking it in with another polling district, perhaps, not in its own constituency. That is the danger I see and I would ask the Minister to accept the amendment. He has not had an opportunity to indicate whether he is accepting the amendment and he should be given that opportunity at this stage.

Mr. Tully

I believe in people being trained for their job. I believe that at the start a person may not know much about his job but as time goes on, let it be a trade or a profession, he should improve and he should become an expert. As a practising politician for many years, I am a little surprised that people like Deputy Lalor and Deputy Molloy—who, unfortunately, is ill and cannot be here—should have made such a mistake in putting down this amendment. Obviously, they do not know what the facts are. People engaged in politics should know how politics operate not only in their own constituency but in other constituencies as well. They should know how elections take place and they should know what exactly are the facts of life with regard to voting, where people vote, why they vote there, and so on.

Mr. Lalor

We get more than 13 per cent of the vote in our areas. We know a little about it.

Mr. Tully

You may know a little about it but somebody else must do the work as this will show. You do not seem to know very much about this fact and you should know it. I said that the amendment which has just been disposed of would do no good and no harm. Not only would this do no good but it would do a considerable amount of harm. When I explain it, I am quite sure that even Deputy Lalor will understand.

This amendment will have the effect of providing that where there is part of a split polling district in a constituency which is constituted as a separate polling district, the polling place appointed for the newly constituted polling district would have to be within the constituency concerned. This amendment would conflict with section 22 (5) of the Electoral Act, 1963, and, in addition, would result in electors being inconvenienced. Section 22 (5) provides:

A polling place appointed by a scheme ... may be within or outside the county, county borough, constituency or electoral area in which the polling district is situate, but shall be such as to give the electors allocated to it reasonable facilities for voting.

The Deputy's amendment conflicts directly with that provision. I am glad to see that Deputy Callanan is in the House as usual. I am sure he will agree with me that in an interjection last week he pointed out the fact that it is more convenient to have a polling station outside the constituency in a neighbouring village where people were accustomed to going than in the new constituency in which they find themselves. This has operated fairly well in practically every constituency and I would almost have a bet that Deputy Lalor has at least one of them in his constituency. I know Deputy Moore has at least one and quite a number of Members of this House have such polling stations belonging to different constituencies in their constituency or some of theirs in a neighbouring constituency. The only reason for this is that it is the most convenient place for the people to vote.

Mr. Callanan

What I said was that polling stations would be within the constituency. For instance, the railway line was the line in Galway. Geographically, I would be voting in the old North East Galway constituency but, because the polling station was in the South Galway constituency, I was in South Galway. It is not the polling station; it is the people voting in it.

Mr. Tully

That is another way of putting the same thing. This happens all over the place. If the amendment was carried this would be prevented from happening if there was no polling booth within the constituency near where people live. They would have to travel within their own constituency until they would come to such a booth when, in fact, they are entitled, under this arrangement, if it is more convenient, to vote outside the constituency. I am surprised at Deputy Lalor being puzzled as to which appropriate officer will be dealing with a particular electoral district because every electoral district in this country is in one or other constituency. The appropriate officer will know which electoral districts are in his constituency and he will make the necessary arrangements to allow them to vote, if it is more convenient, within the constituency. If it is more convenient for them to vote outside it he will do just that. If there is any doubt about this being something new we have had the last Bill, the one before that and the one before that again where different arrangements were made.

Deputy Lalor was kind enough to quote something which I said in this regard. People were travelling from one constituency, not to the neighbouring one where they could vote and where they will vote in the next election, but across that constituency into another one because of the electoral division. In my native village by the decision of this House at the last election there was a polling station where 56 people were in the Meath constituency, 132 in the Cavan constituency and 52 in the Monaghan constituency. They all voted in the one area because it was the local school. For their convenience this is what will be continued.

I am aware that Deputy Lalor, at short notice, was asked to move this amendment and it is possible that he has not had an opportunity of looking at this particular angle. I know how one tends to look at something in a certain way and I am aware that it is difficult to see that there is another interpretation to it. However, it has been my job to ensure that I look at all sides of it. The situation is this that if the amendment, as proposed by Deputy Lalor for Deputy Molloy, is put into operation it would be contrary to section 22 (5) of the Electoral Act, 1963, and, in addition, would prevent people from voting at the most convenient place. I am sure Deputy Lalor, or his colleagues, would not like to see that happen. I suggest that the best thing that the Deputy can do is to withdraw the amendment.

In suggesting this, I must add that there is no catch in it. I am simply stating what the facts are. The facts are that while the vast majority of the polling places will be within the constituency there are some exceptions. In Dublin city there are five polling districts where electors vote at premises which are situated outside the constituency concerned. The voting premises were selected because of the fact that they were the most convenient. There is not much point in attempting to make a law which will prevent the continuance of this very convenient practice and for that reason I suggest that the amendment be withdrawn.

Mr. Lalor

The situation, as explained by the Minister, sounds logical but I was surprised, for a man who made such an intensive study of the constituencies and indicated that he had gone through it with a fine comb before presenting this Bill to the House, to hear his reference to the constituency I have the privilege of representing. That constituency has all its polling stations within its boundaries. At no place in the constituency is there a polling station where someone is voting from outside the constituency. It was only when Deputy Burke pointed out the position in the Dublin area that I felt I should bring the Minister's attention to this matter. I will withdraw the amendment.

Mr. Callanan

On a point of information, I pointed out to the Minister that the position in Galway was that all the people who went to a polling booth were in that constituency even though some of them, geographically, were in another constituency. If the polling booth happens to be in constituency X and some of the people who are going to that booth are from constituency Y, will the Minister have two boxes in that booth and at the end of the day will they go to the separate counting centres?

Mr. Tully

This has always been the case and will continue to be the case.

Mr. Callanan

It was not the case in my area.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed: "That section 7 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Tully

We have had a very full discussion on section 7 and I would suggest, while I am not trying to hold up discussion if any further points are to be made, that we could usefully move on.

Mr. Lalor

One of the biggest problems we had in making a number of logical points on section 7 was that the discussion up to now had to be confined to the four words in the amendment. There are a number of observations which should be made on this section and have not been referred to as yet. In my view there is an amount of ambiguity in connection with subsection (1). One would need a certain amount of legal training in order to understand and accept the Minister's intention in that subsection. The more I read the section the more vague it became. That section states:

Where a polling district existing at the passing of this Act is not wholly situate within one of the constituencies specified in the Schedule to this Act, the appropriate officer, after consultation with the returning officer for the constituency concerned, shall, with respect to the part of the polling district situate in a constituency so specified—

(a) join it or parts of it with any adjoining polling district or districts, or

I feel there is a degree of ambiguity in that statement because we are speaking in the singular about the appropriate officer and at the same time we are dealing with at least two, if not three, appropriate officers. If the polling district is situated within the constituency, there is no problem but if it is not it automatically means that some portion of it must be in another constituency. Does this section refer to the portion of it that is still left in the existing constituency? Does it refer to the section of the constituency that has been incorporated into the newly created constituency or does it refer to the portion of it which is in another part of the constituency? We talk here specifically about the appropriate officer. Why should we not talk about the appropriate officer in the new constituency? Why should we not talk about the appropriate officers in the various constituencies embracing the old polling district?

The second point I want to refer to is section 22 of the Electoral Act, 1963. Section 7 (2) refers to an arrangement made pursuant to paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of this section and states that it shall be subject to the sanction of the Minister. The arrangement is to be made by the appropriate officer after consultation with the returning officer. This arrangement will last for 12 months, assuming this Bill is passed in that time. Theoretically, this Dáil has another four years to run but all the information is that there will be an explosion within the next six months. We have a temporary arrangement which may have to be made for three years.

Mr. Tully

Three-and-a-half years.

Mr. Lalor

That assumes this Bill will be passed inside the next six months.

Mr. Tully

It will be.

Mr. Lalor

There will be a lot of guillotining.

Mr. Tully

I once walked up the steps 16 times on divisions on a particular Bill which eventually was declared unconstitutional so let the Deputy not talk to me about guillotining.

Mr. Lalor

The Deputy was doing what his fellow backbenchers were doing today. He was voting with his feet. The Minister said he walked through the division lobbies 16 times opposing a Bill which eventually was declared unconstitutional. The Minister handling that Bill felt as confident as the Minister for Local Government feels this evening that his Bill was constitutional.

Mr. Tully

I do not think he did. We warned him often enough.

Mr. Lalor

We are warning the Minister often enough. Of course, the difficulty is that we are thick, and the Minister is the genius. A character named Lucifer felt the same way one time.

An Ceann Comhairle

I think we are getting off the subject matter of section 7.

Mr. Lalor

Section 7 of this Bill states that the appropriate officer, after consultation with the returning officer for the constituency concerned, shall submit his arrangement for the new polling district for sanction to the Minister and finishes up with a temporary polling district in the new area. In the appropriate section of the 1963 measure the creation of polling districts is a reserved function, for the purposes of the County Management Acts of 1940 to 1955, of the county council.

One of the matters about which the Minister has always spoken is the democratic process and passing on of functions to local authorities. We now have the situation whereby there is an opportunity in this section of the Bill for the Minister to give local authorities the power to create polling districts on a permanent basis. The appropriate officer, the manager in the county borough areas and the secretary in county council areas has the overall right and it is legitimate as an extremely short-term arrangement. It is stated that in this measure that this temporary arrangement:

shall have effect until (and only until) the first scheme under section 22 of the Electoral Act, 1963, in relation to the county or county borough in which the polling district is situate comes into operation after the passing of this Act.

If some time elapses between the passing of this Bill and the Dáil going out of existence I do not see any reason why an opportunity should not be given to local authorities to prepare a fresh scheme. I can appreciate the new polling districts could not operate until after the dissolution of the Dáil.

There is no reason why the county council or the corporation in a city area should not have the opportunity of having their voices heard in regard to the creation of those temporary schemes. The Minister should give serious consideration to this aspect with a view to including this power in the section. I appreciate that we are talking about a temporary arrangement but it is a temporary arrangement which will become permanent following the next election and there is no reason why the county council, which subsequent to the next general election would have the opportunity of preparing new polling districts within the new constituencies, should not have the opportunity in the interim period of having their views considered. This would be a much better arrangement than leaving the power specifically with the returning officer because the next election will be fought on the basis of the polling districts which have been created by county managers and county secretaries in consultation with the returning officers for the various areas but without reference to the county councils or the corporations. There is no reason why a time limit should not be put on it and it could be included in this section that if an election is held within a six-month period from the date of the passage of the Bill the appropriate officer, after consultation with the returning officer for the constituency concerned, shall create the fresh polling district but if the election is not held until some time after a six-month period that in the meantime the reserved function, as spelt out in section 22 (7) of the 1963 Act, should be brought into effect and that the local councillors and members of the corporation should be able to have their voices heard and their influence felt as public representatives.

The Minister for Local Government is a man who has given a fair share of lip service to the idea of giving members of local authorities greater powers. I do not think he should be associated with the withdrawal of a function which they already have. I agree that this section is a replica of section 7 of the 1969 Act and previous Acts but that is no reason why it cannot be improved. This is an Electoral (Amendment) Bill dealing specifically with election to Dáil Éireann and there is no reason why the local elected representatives, whose powers have been limited in the past, should not get a power which it is intended that they should have but which is withdrawn from them because of the necessity to conduct constituency revisions in relation to changes in the distribution of population and increased population in the country.

I have endeavoured to point out that I am very unhappy about section 7 (1) of this Bill. There is a degree of ambiguity there and an element of doubt and this was the reason for my being so sticky and so tenacious in relation to amendment a.1. There is something lacking in that section. It needs clarification.

I notice, too, that the new polling district that has to be created by the appropriate officer, after consultation with the returning officer, is subject to the sanction of the Minister whereas in relation to the function which the local authority has in the preparing of a national scheme it is not alone subject to the Minister but the Minister can revoke it or amend it by a subsequent scheme under this section. Under the 1963 Act if a scheme is prepared by the local authority it is subject not alone to ministerial sanction but to ministerial interference in so far as the Minister can reject it, amend it and generally play around with it. In this instance the county manager or county secretary can prepare a scheme in consultation with the returning officer and the Minister has not got the right to amend it; he simply has the right to sanction or not to sanction it. This seems remarkable in so far as this is a temporary arrangement to deal with an urgent matter. I wonder what will happen coming up to election time if the appropriate officer keeps sending up schemes in relation to a disjointed polling district and the polling place for it and if the Minister continues to be dissatisfied. The Minister has not the right under this Bill, if he is dissatisfied, to amend, he has only the right to refuse to sanction the polling district. The Minister instanced, in relation to the amendment we withdrew, the situation in which the polling booth for a polling district is outside a constituency. Suppose the appropriate officer decides to have polling in a particular school or hall which he considers convenient for the voters in an area. I have plenty of experience of local people complaining about the siting of the polling stations but once the local authority have decided in this regard nothing can be done about it. The Minister, if approached, can change that in that case but in this instance the situation is such that if the county secretary or the county or city manager fixes a particular hall about which the general public protest or, perhaps, a colleague of the Minister protests to the Minister——

Mr. Crowley

The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs must be going back to Red China.

Mr. Tully

This has become an obsession with the Deputy and he should get rid of it. He is a decent fellow——

Mr. Lalor

If the county secretary or the city or county manager appoints a polling place for a particular polling district and it is unsuitable the Minister can refuse to sanction it but there is nothing in the section which allows the Minister to fix or appropriate a suitable place. He must just refuse to sanction and the county secretary or county manager can come back and perhaps suggest a different room in the same school which would not appeal to the Minister. I am rather surprised that the Minister does not take power here as he does in the Principal Act not only to refuse to sanction but also power to fix an appropriate polling place. I should like the Minister to refer to this in dealing with this section.

Mr. Tully

We had quite a long comment from Deputy Lalor and I think his final point is a valid one, not quite as valid as he says because it means in co-operation with the returning officer; there would be two people involved. The Minister has not the right to tell him he must put it somewhere else. The Minister can say: "That will not do." He would then have to produce another one or would be supposed to do so. While this has never occurred I agree that it could happen. Somebody might be foolish or awkward enough to do something like that and, for that reason perhaps, this should be looked into with a view to ensuring that particular little loophole is closed up. I thank the Deputy for drawing it to my attention.

I would not be so complimentary in regard to the "appropriate officer". There could only be one appropriate officer in a county. Deputy Lalor wants to know who is the appropriate officer. Subsection (3) says:

In this section "the appropriate officer" means—

and it goes on to say who the appropriate officer is. There is no doubt about that, no ambiguity.

Mr. Callanan

Is he the county manager?

Mr. Tully

The county secretary or, in a county borough, the city manager.

Mr. Callanan

Where there are two counties involved?

Mr. Tully

There will be a county secretary in each.

Mr. Crowley

And one of them would be designated?

Mr. Tully

One of them would be designated, yes.

Mr. Crowley

Who decides which one?

Mr. Callanan

I have this in Clare and Galway. Who decides?

Mr. Tully

Perhaps I had better read the section which states:

In this section "the appropriate officer" means—

(a) in relation to a polling district situate in a county borough, the manager for the purposes of the Acts relating to the management of the county borough (including a person duly appointed either as deputy for such manager or to act in the place of such manager during his absence or incapacity or during a vacancy in his office),

(b) in relation to any other polling district, the secretary of the council of the county in which the polling district is situate (including a person duly appointed either as deputy for such secretary or to act in the place of such secretary during his absence or incapacity or during a vacancy in his office).

If there are two counties joined together for one constituency, each county secretary is responsible for his own county. The returning officer will be responsible for the two counties but the appointment of polling places is the responsibility of the county secretary in co-operation in the normal way with elected members, subject to sanction by the Minister and in this special way—I want to come to this in a moment—the county secretary will be subject to sanction of the temporary arrangement.

Mr. Callanan

I should like to have this point explained. Take Clare and West Galway, for instance. Surely the county manager in Galway will not be the appropriate officer for the polling booths in the portion of Clare——

Mr. Tully

No. In each county the polling districts will be arranged by the county secretary in that county— the polling district as distinct from the constituency boundaries which the Deputy is talking about.

Mr. Callanan

But the returning officer is for the constituency.

Mr. Tully

Yes.

Mr. Crowley

I think the Minister is a bit confused.

Mr. Tully

He is not. I am quite sure of what I am talking about and the Deputy will find that I usually am.

Mr. Crowley

It says "the appropriate officer".

Mr. Tully

It also states who the appropriate officer would be and if the Deputy has time to read it he will see who the appropriate officer is.

Mr. Crowley

There is no need for the Minister to be annoyed. We are being constructive.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister should be allowed to make his contribution.

Mr. Crowley

What we would like clarified is where there are two officers appropriate——

Mr. Tully

No, two officers cannot be appropriate.

Mr. Crowley

But in Deputy Callanan's case they can.

Mr. Tully

No, because in each county the county secretary is responsible and if it is a county borough the county manager is responsible or rather the city manager. There is no ambiguity. They cannot cross each other's lines.

Mr. R.P. Burke

What happens in a case like that of Dublin where we do not have a county secretary?

Mr. Tully

You have somebody acting. I am surprised that Dublin county councillors have not done something about that before now.

Mr. R.P. Burke

We have been attempting to.

Mr. Tully

Elected representatives have more power than they want to use sometimes. That is No. 1. Deputy Lalor referred to a temporary arrangement. Again, it is quite simple. The temporary arrangement would be made quickly to ensure that the electoral machine is always ready for an election. Power to make these arrangements is taken because the making of a polling scheme takes a minimum of several months. If you decide it will be done by the elected representatives, as it is normally done, it could take several months and if an election occurred in the meantime there could be a breakdown.

I should like to make two points: first, this does not refer to by-elections; they are fought on the old arrangements; secondly, the temporary scheme will only apply to a minimum number of polling areas throughout the county; only, in fact, where there is a boundary change will this be done. There is one point which I think Deputy Lalor did not know and I hope he will read the debate because it is important. While it is not usual for county councils to make polling schemes except every so many years, there is no reason why they should not decide to make one whenever they think it necessary. In fact, a temporary arrangement could be made by the county secretary but could be superseded by a permanent arrangement made as quickly as possible, within a few months afterwards, by the elected representatives.

Mr. Geoghegan

As Deputy Callanan pointed out, if there are two different townlands, one in Galway and one in Clare—let us take Kinvara and New Quay—and if there is a row between the county secretaries in Galway and Clare, who decides where the polling station will be? If the Clare county secretary wants to have it in his county and the Galway county secretary wishes to have the station in Galway, does the Minister act as referee?

Mr. Tully

No. The Deputy has missed the point. A county secretary is responsible for polling stations within his county. He is the absolute boss. If the county secretary in Clare wants to put a polling station in a particular place he is entitled to do so, subject to sanction of the Minister and this applies to the county secretary in Galway also. If it is decided it would be more convenient to have one polling station catering for the two areas and if they reach agreement on the matter that is all right. If they do not reach agreement each is entitled to have one.

Mr. Geoghegan

If there are only 20 voters in each townland in different counties and if the county secretaries do not agree, will it be necessary to have a polling booth in each county?

Mr. Tully

No. You could not put them in one polling district if they are in two different counties. They could be in one constituency and they could vote in one polling booth. Polling districts are not broken for general elections. The Deputy knows the arrangement as well as I. The situation the Deputy has referred to could not occur because each county secretary is responsible for the arrangements for polling districts within his county. In the case mentioned by Deputy Geoghegan, the county secretary in Galway would make his own arrangements, as would the county secretary in Clare.

Mr. Geoghegan

Would this apply even when there were only 20 voters?

Mr. Tully

That would be the situation. Deputy Lalor referred to making a scheme which would not be subject to change by the Minister. Incidentally, I was touched by the desire shown at times by the Opposition to give me more power. At other times they wanted to take what little power I have.

Mr. R.P. Burke

Usually it is the latter.

Mr. Tully

I was touched by the impassioned appeal of Deputy Lalor when he wanted me to take power to do certain things. As he knows, I have given a lot of power to local authorities and I propose to give them much more. The only thing is some people did not seem to understand my discussion document or they did not send in their recommendations in time.

The elected representatives are entitled to make arrangements for the electoral areas subject to sanction by the Minister. The county secretaries and the city managers in the boroughs are entitled to make the temporary arrangements. Here the Minister may only accept or reject. As I said to Deputy Lalor, it appears there could be a little tightening up in this area. While I could not see any appointed officers doing anything that would be contrary to the common good, in case it happened it would be as well to have the authority to ensure no great harm was done.

The elected representatives are the people who have the right to do these things. As soon as possible they should make their own arrangements, if they think the arrangements are not suitable, to appoint permanent polling areas. This would eliminate the right which has been temporarily given to the officials. Those were the main points Deputy Lalor mentioned. I know the Opposition are as anxious as I am to bring discussion on this section to an end.

Mr. Callanan

On a point of information, if a dispute arises for instance on the boundary at Lahinch with regard to polling stations, who makes the decision? The County Secretary in Clare is the boss and it appears the returning officer in Galway must consult with him and abide by his decision. Is that the case?

Mr. Tully

He must do it in consultation with the returning officer.

Mr. Callanan

What happens if they do not agree?

Mr. Tully

If that happens they must make a recommendation to the Department and the Minister has the right to accept or reject what they propose. My suggestion to the Deputy is that in the event of an unsatisfactory solution it would be for the county council to make a permanent arrangement as soon as possible.

Mr. Geoghegan

If a county council decide one booth is sufficient for four townlands, would they have to get sanction from the Minister to close existing booths and put the four townlands together?

Mr. Tully

They must get sanction from the Minister. What they would be doing is making a new scheme of polling stations and they must get sanction from the Minister.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I am very happy with the attitude of the Minister in regard to section 7. He has been very co-operative with this side of the House. The amendments we proposed earlier would have been dealt with much faster if the same sweet and reasonable attitude had prevailed. I was happy with his clarification of the present situation and that envisaged which was mentioned by Deputy Lalor. One matter was mentioned by Deputy Lalor which the Minister agreed needed clarification and some tightening. That is the question with regard to the permanent and the temporary arrangement. I think Deputy Lalor's suggestion that it should be written into the Bill that the appropriate officers have the power for six months and after that the local councils or corporations will have responsibility would meet the situation.

Mr. Tully

May I interrupt? The councils can decide immediately.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I know they have the power, but the Minister has had practical experience of the operations of county councils and I am sure he will agree that unless it is written into the Bill that this is a statutory duty it may not be dealt with as promptly as it should be dealt with. County councils and corporations have a great deal of work to do and, because of that, the onus must be placed fairly and squarely on them. If it is not written in one could have the situation adumbrated by Deputy Lalor. In theory, this Dáil could run for another four years—it will not, of course—and you could have these temporary arrangements running for that length of time. It would be better to have a specific clause for a definite period of six months and, after the six months, the responsibility would rest with the local bodies.

Mr. Tully

There is no provision at the moment which says that a council must do this. The fact is councils have been doing it for their own convenience. County councils, as practically every Deputy in the House knows, are very careful of their rights and very careful to ensure convenient polling stations. I think the onus should be on the council. Remember, there could be a hiatus; the six-month period might be up and, for some reason or another, the new arrangement might not be introduced. There could then be an election with no arrangements made in some small areas within constituencies. I prefer to leave it with the council. One could send them a reminder occasionally that this was their job.

Mr. R.P. Burke

A problem can arise. In my own constituency approximately two-thirds was in North County Dublin. There was another section in North-East and another in North-West. It is now being put into one constituency. You have polling station problems. County councils would not have the authority to decide because they are not the relevant authority. The Minister might clarify this for me. The relevant authority would be the corporation.

Mr. Tully

Is it in the county area?

Mr. R.P. Burke

It is in the corporation area. Boundaries have been crossed. A section of the city has been taken in and I am talking about the section that has been brought in.

Mr. Tully

Then it will be the city council.

Mr. R.P. Burke

It might not be convenient for the city council to look at it because it is only a small section of the city. To the city council it would be a small thing.

Mr. Tully

The Deputy can rest assured they will look at it.

Mr. R.P. Burke

But it might not be as important to the city as it is to the county. The county council would look at the position of the polling stations but the corporation might not and you would have one section of a constituency having definite polling stations decided upon and another section with just temporary arrangements. I am asking the Minister to make a definite regulation so that we will not have this kind of anomaly. Deputy Callanan raised this point in regard to his constituency where you have the boundary between Galway and Clare crossed; Galway County Council might decide on their particular section while Clare County Council might adjourn their decision.

Mr. Tully

It would not make any difference. Is the Deputy arguing that certain county councils would not care as much about the people they represent as others would? I am sure they all would.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I am not suggesting that. I am trying to clarify the position. You have the case where councils would not be interested in a Dáil election. This Bill deals with Dáil elections. Anomalies exist where boundaries are crossed. Some guideline should be written into the section and the Minister should have some control over this situation.

Mr. Tully

I would be afraid that by putting it in we would create something it would be better not to create.

Mr. R.P. Burke

The Minister could say that the temporary arrangement would be for six months or until such time as the local authorities discussed the matter and came to a decision. If there is disagreement the temporary arrangement could continue until such time as the disagreement is resolved.

Mr. Tully

That would make something which is very simple very complicated. I see the Deputy's point, but I think he will agree it would be better to leave it to the elected representatives rather than put in something that could cause trouble.

Mr. R.P. Burke

The problem arises where constituencies cross boundaries. Deputy Geoghegan referred to the position in Kinvara where part of the constituency is in one county and part in another and there are two polling stations side by side.

Mr. Tully

What would the trouble be?

Mr. R.P. Burke

It is the problem of the siting of polling stations. You could have two small areas with polling booths side by side. We withdrew the amendment on the basis of convenience where constitutents are concerned under subsection (1) (b). Polling stations should be sited as conveniently as possible for the electorate. The Minister is probably familiar with polling stations in country areas. We closed a few of them. In some we had 40, 50 or 60 voters and it was altogether impracticable from the point of view of the public, the expense involved and the political parties. Presiding officers and polling clerks had to be appointed. This is a situation that should be avoided. I suggest the Minister have another look at this between now and Report Stage and come back then and tell us what he thinks. It is now 10 p.m. and we will be adjourning at 10.30 p.m. It is unlikely that we will finish section 7 by then.

Mr. Tully

Have we not finished now? What more is there to say?

Mr. R.P. Burke

I am not quite finished. Between now and the next occasion when we discuss this Bill, perhaps the Minister might have a look at our ideas. He admitted that he could see merit in them.

Mr. Tully

I can see where a problem could exist but it is the lesser of two evils. Which would be worse: to have for a temporary period two small stations near county borders or a situation where, because of a time limit, there would be no arrangements and it would break down? I am anxious to co-operate on his point but, in everybody's interest, it would be much better if it were left to the elected representatives. If necessary, reminders could be sent to them from time to time stating that the temporary arrangements must be turned into permanent arrangements within a reasonable time. This need not be written into legislation. If we attempt to do too much with this, I am afraid we will tie it up in such a way that the last situation could be worse than the first.

I can see Deputy Burke's point but I feel there is a lesser chance of anything going wrong if we continue with the present system which has worked so far rather than introduce a new element which could cause a breakdown and leave us all with red faces.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I am sure that it is not beyond the ability of the parliamentary draftsman, with the Minister's advice, to draw up an amendment which would meet this question. While this has worked in the past, I do not think we ever had a situation similar to that in Ballymun. In that area there are three old constituencies meeting.

Mr. Tully

I have changed that. That cannot occur with the new arrangement because they will be in one constituency now.

Mr. R.P. Burke

City and county boundaries were not crossed before. Up to now this area went as far as the county boundary. The city end was divided into Dublin North-East and Dublin North-West. We are now crossing the county boundary and this makes me nervous.

Mr. Tully

Deputy Burke is making a mistake which is very common to Dublin people when he imagines that something happens in Dublin only. This happens all over the country. In every constituency change, with some exceptions, county boundaries are crossed again and again. The county secretary in a county is responsible for his own area and the county secretary in the other county is responsible for his area. In conjunction with the returning officer they make temporary decisions and then pass them on to the Minister for Local Government for sanction. So far this has worked well. I do not believe in promising to do something which I feel should not be done. If I thought the amendment would improve the section, I would not be arguing. Because the situation as it stands works, I consider that we should leave the section as it is. The city manager will be responsible for arrangements within the city boundaries and the county secretary will be responsible for the county area. Therefore, there cannot be any overlapping.

Deputy Burke suggested that if a county council decide to make new arrangements and create, for their own convenience, a booth near the border of the constituency which is also near a booth in the constituency at the other end of the county boundary that this might cause trouble. I agree that this could be ridiculous, especially if the numbers involved were very small. This is such a small chance that I prefer to see it working the other way, to urge public representatives of the local authorities to ensure that where they are not satisfied with the arrangements made they will introduce new arrangements as soon as possible after the change in the constituencies.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I am glad to see that the Minister is giving this point the attention and interest it deserves. He is familiar with the area about which I am speaking and on which my case hinges.

There is a unique situation in Ballymun. It is a very densely populated area. While county boundaries are crossed in rural Ireland, the same numbers are not affected. The main Ballymun-Santry road divides the new town of Ballymun almost in half. One half was in the old constituency. The other half was divided and one part was in Dublin North-East and the other in Dublin North-West.

To reach the polling station the electorate should not have to cross main roads. The Minister should write a provision into this Bill which would insist on co-operation between city and county sections with regard to the siting of polling stations for the convenience of the people in this area. Can the Minister help us on this point?

Mr. Tully

Dublin city boundary has been breached in nearly every revision of constituencies. It is not unique in Ballymun. There is no reason to believe that this will cause hardship. As a matter of fact, the opposite may be the case. Therefore, I would not like to put in a provision which would not make it more effective and would possibly tie the hands of the elected representatives. They hold the key. An officer may make temporary arrangements but the elected representatives have the right to make permanent arrangements. I would prefer to leave it at that.

Mr. R.P. Burke

On the passing of this Act in the year 1976——

Mr. Tully

Before Easter of this year.

Mr. R.P. Burke

——would the Minister send a letter immediately to all local authorities informing them of the changes as they affect them and asking them, as a matter of urgency, to revise the polling stations for the convenience of the people in their areas?

Mr. Tully

This is the usual practice.

Mr. R.P. Burke

This would be very helpful with regard to the crossing of the county boundaries.

I should like to discuss polling districts and polling places which are not necessarily altered because of the crossing of county boundaries. The siting of polling stations for the convenience of the public has been causing trouble in every constituency over a number of years. Within the boundaries of County Dublin, with the growth that has taken place over the past number of years, we find that we change a polling district station and 12 months later a completely new housing estate is built and the polling station which was convenient for the majority of the people when it was decided upon is not convenient. As I understand it, changing it at county council level is quite a long drawn out process. It has to be sent to the Minister for his comments and his officials' comments and for the Minister's approval. I should like to see that whole process speeded up.

Subsection (2) provides that an arrangement made pursuant to paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of this section shall be subject to the sanction of the Minister. I do not think this power should be in the hands of the Minister. So far as possible it should be at local level. People are becoming more involved at local level and they are playing a much greater part in local politics. This is a good trend. It is fair enough that the councils should decide the locations of the polling districts and polling stations. While the Minister is waiting for a decision by the local authority there is a temporary period——

Mr. Tully

May I interrupt Deputy Burke because he is going on a wrong line. Perhaps it would shorten the proceedings if I say that, while it is true that the local authority decide on the polling place which must be an area, in fact, the actual building where the polling booth is, is selected by the returning officer. I agree entirely with what Deputy Burke is saying about the selection of polling booths and where they are placed. Eventually something will have to be done about that and I should like to see something done about it but it is not a matter for this Bill. There is nothing I can do about it in this Bill at present. All we can deal with is the split polling areas.

Mr. Wyse

Could the Minister direct the returning officers to establish polling booths in institutions such as geriatric hospitals and psychiatric institutions? It is a terrible thing on polling day to see old people being brought to polling stations far removed from those institutions.

Mr. Tully

We might find a simple solution for that.

Mr. Wyse

Could the Minister give us some reason why it is not so simple?

Mr. Tully

There are polling booths in most of the geriatric hospitals. Quite frankly, it appalls me to see people being hauled out of bed, who have not been out of bed for months or years, and put in a wheelchair or a stretcher and carried down to vote.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

Does that happen in Meath?

Mr. Tully

They are then brought back to the bed out of which they were taken and abandoned there. It is appalling that this should happen. I should like to see something done which would make it unnecessary for that to happen. I believe they have a right to vote. I agree with Deputy Wyse but there are polling stations in quite a number of the geriatric hospitals where there are a big number of patients. It is not the ideal way to conduct an election to have them hauled out of bed.

Mr. Moore

Is the Minister changing that?

Mr. Tully

Not in this Bill. I assure the Deputy I am giving it attention.

Mr. Wyse

In one of the biggest geriatric institutions in Cork there is no polling station.

Mr. Tully

That is the responsibility of the city council. The Deputy should ask them.

Mr. Wyse

I am asking the Minister.

Mr. Tully

I cannot tell them. The city council should tell the returning officer that there should be a polling station in this area for these people.

Mr. Wyse

Will the Minister ask the returning officer to keep this fact in mind?

Mr. Tully

It is the responsibility of the elected representatives for the local area to tell the county secretary to tell him to do that. Where there are a considerable number of voters who are entitled to vote, it is the responsibility of the local authority to make arrangements for the polling area in which they can vote. It is then the responsibility of the returning officer to ensure that a booth is placed where it will be convenient for them to vote. It is not the function of the Department or the Minister for Local Government to deal with a matter of that kind. I suggest that it should be taken up at local level. If a local authority are not dealing with it somebody— and I am sure Deputy Wyse would be the very man to do it—should remind them very sharply that those people are entitled to be facilitated for voting purposes.

Mr. R.P. Burke

Surely the way to meet that problem is by the suggestion we made during the debate on section 6. Our amendment to section 8 which was ruled out of order suggested that we should extend the categories of persons entitled to a postal vote in Dáil, Presidential or local elections or in referenda.

Mr. Tully

The important words are that it was ruled out of order.

Mr. R.P. Burke

This would be a solution of the problem.

Mr. Tully

I propose to do something about postal votes in the near future.

Mr. R.P. Burke

Will it be in time for the local elections?

Mr. Tully

Le cúnamh Dé.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I do not agree with giving the Minister more power than he has at the moment but it is better to have the power in the Minister's hands since he can be questioned in Dáil Éireann rather than in the hands of the appropriate officers, meaning the county secretaries and so on, who cannot be questioned in the Dáil. I said earlier that there could be a difference between two county managers or two local authorities on the siting of a polling station. This should be subject not only to the sanction of the Minister but also to debate here. The Minister should be able to make up his own mind.

Mr. Tully

He usually makes up his own mind.

Mr. R.P. Burke

Sometimes wrongly.

Mr. Tully

That is a matter of opinion.

Mr. R.P. Burke

If the Minister has power to do it he can be questioned in the Dáil and Deputies can express their views. If too much power is left in the hands of county managers and county secretaries they cannot be questioned by Deputies who are not members of local authorities and there is a large number of those. On Report Stage the Minister should bring in an amendment to subsection (2) (a). Subsection (3) (b) provides that in this section the appropriate officer means the county secretary. I mentioned the case of County Dublin where we have not had a county secretary for months since the last county secretary retired having given excellent service to the people of County Dublin for a long number of years.

Mr. Tully

The last couple of words in the paragraph deal with that.

Mr. R.P. Burke

Paragraph (b) provides:

...in relation to any other polling district, the secretary of the council of the county in which the polling district is situate—

This is the point I am making. We have not got a secretary at the moment and have not had one for some months. It goes on:

...(including a person duly appointed either as deputy for such secretary or to act in the place of such secretary during his absence or incapacity or during a vacancy in his office).

That is covered in these. As I have mentioned the fact that we do not have a county secretary in County Dublin I am sure the Minister will be prepared to sanction one.

Mr. Tully

Recommendations have not come in from Dublin County Council.

Mr. R.P. Burke

If the recommendations come in, I am sure the Minister will sanction the appointment of the county secretary.

Mr. Lalor

The Minister mentioned that it is the local authority who have the right to scheme out polling districts but it is the appropriate officer, the secretary of the county council who fixes the polling stations.

Mr. Tully

No, the returning officer. He had the right always.

Mr. Lalor

This power is not held by the county council?

Mr. Tully

They only select the area where a polling station is to be sited but the returning officer is the one responsible for selecting the building where voting takes place.

Mr. Lalor

That is what I understood the Minister to say. Even though it takes us a long time to get around to it we have the effect of being a help to the Minister.

Mr. Tully

I have admitted that.

Mr. Lalor

Section 22, of the 1963 Act, dealing with polling districts and polling places, states in subsection (1):

The council of a county or corporation of a county borough may, after consultation with the returning officer for Dáil elections in respect of the county or county borough and in accordance with regulations made by the Minister, make a scheme dividing the county or county borough into polling districts for the purposes of Dáil elections and elections of members of local authorities within the meaning of Part VI of this Act and appointing a polling place for each polling district.

Therefore, under that subsection the local authority have power to fix the polling place along with fixing the polling district. That is why, with my knowledge of the situation, I drew specific attention to the omission in this section of the present Bill. In both instances at present the appropriate officer has to make up his mind following consultation with the returning officer and the local authority have to make up their mind following consultation with the returning officer who fixes both polling districts and appoints polling places in each polling district.

That is why I feel the temporary provision which section 7 is should also embrace a situation whereby after there is a given period exceeding six months between the time of the passing of this Bill and the time of bringing it into effect provision should be made to enable local authorities to prepare a new scheme embracing the creation of new polling districts and the creation of new polling places for the consituency.

The Minister stated that he sees the question of this being subject to the sanction of the Minister could be widened.

Mr. Tully

The Deputy is correct that that is the way subsection (1) of section 22 of the 1963 Act reads but subsection (5) of that section makes the position clear. That subsection states:

A polling place appointed by a scheme under this section shall be an area and may be within or outside the county, county borough, constituency or electoral area in which the polling district is situate, but shall be such as to give the electors allocated to it reasonable facilities for voting.

In fact, what that means is that they do not select the actual building. It must be within a certain area. The reason is to prevent a particular building where there has been a catastrophe such as a fire being selected with the result that there will be no place to vote. All the Act does is to provide that the county council shall arrange that voting takes place in a particular village or townland which is an area but the returning officer selects the actual building where voting takes place.

Mr. Callanan

A few moments ago the Minister informed me that the final word on these matters rests with the appropriate officer, in this case the secretary of the county council. Do I understand now that he is for the area and that it is the returning officer who has the picking of the place where people will vote?

Mr. Tully

The area referred to in this case is not a polling area. What we are talking about is a district in which polling will take place, a village or a townland, but the final word rests with the returning officer. He is the person who has to decide on the building.

Mr. Callanan

That is the point I want clarified. In Clare and Galway the returning officer for council elections is a Clare man but in the Dáil elections the returning officer for West Galway is a man from Galway city. Could there be a clash there?

Mr. Tully

No, because they pick the most convenient place for the polling booth and, if it is convenient for the local elections, then the man, even if he belongs to a different county and belongs to the same constituency, will vote in the most convenient place picked for him by the returning officer.

Mr. Callanan

If there was a clash is the Minister the boss?

Mr. Tully

Yes.

Mr. Lalor

The Minister will accept that the reading I took from subsection (1) was reasonably justified?

Mr. Tully

Yes, the Deputy had me worried for a moment.

Mr. Lalor

I accept the fact, from my experience, that it is the returning officer who picks the spot and, of necessity, has to make last minute arrangements when he cannot get into places where he used be. Subsection (3) of the 1963 Act states:

As soon as may be after they have made a scheme under this section, the council of a county or corporation of a county borough shall submit the scheme to the Minister for confirmation and the Minister shall by order confirm the scheme with or without modification or refuse to confirm it.

That particular phraseology, in my view, would be ideal for use in section 7 of this Bill.

Mr. Tully

It may not be.

Mr. Lalor

It may not be and there may be some backroom reason for not having that but I know from experience that it is necessary for a Minister to have power in the event of a problem arising.

There is a lot to be said for a constructive presentation of the views of the people on this side of the House in connection with section 7. The Minister's acceptance of our views in relation to a particular section of it in its own way justifies the line by line operation we are involving ourselves in.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.