Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 16 May 1974

Vol. 272 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote 44: Defence (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.

—(Deputy Meaney.)

Mr. Moore

We all pay tribute to the Defence Forces for their service to the nation. We should do so in a very tangible way of ensuring that the housing of the men and their families is of the highest standard. The Minister has this matter under review and is doing something about it. The Minister admits that the problem here is brought about by the age of the buildings. Most of the barracks in the city were built before the start of the last century. Would it not be better to pull down these barracks and to build modern structures elsewhere? That would provide sites for housing purposes to Dublin Corporation. New barracks could be erected elsewhere. Dublin Corporation, the county council and the Department of Defence could arrange between them that a certain number of men would be rehoused by the local authority.

The question of Cathal Brugha Barracks has been raised repeatedly over the years. I am sure the barracks are kept in trim condition by the personnel. The maintenance costs there must be high. The site would be very suitable for housing. I am not an expert on military matters but I feel that barracks could be built elsewhere and that this would be more advantageous to the Department and to the Army. It would also make for more security. The Minister should ensure that the electrical wiring of these barracks is attended to without delay.

I was glad to hear that the Minister is concerned about education. He is building a new hostel in Galway and I congratulate all concerned. Our Defence Forces should have the highest standards of education available to them. They are all volunteers in the true sense. Their educational facilities should be extended as far as possible. I believe that those men who are sent to Galway and to UCG are cadets and officers. Could the educational facilities be extended as far down as NCOs at least in order that these men would have the educational facilities available to them to enable them to reach the highest ranks in the Army or the Naval Service?

I compliment the Minister and his predecessors who have done so much to change the image of the Army. The nursing services in the Army are seldom mentioned. They provide a great service. They are an essential part of the Army.

The Department of Finance have placed contracts for the manufacture at home of troop carriers. This is to be welcomed. The Minister should expand such development. One is always rather conscious of the fact that certain people make money by providing weapons for defence. We should not feel happy that those people make money out of such an industry. In our civil industry we are building troop carriers. This is a practice which I hope will be extended as far as possible.

It would be a good idea to provide a new fishery patrol vessel each year. The economics of the matter recommend themselves. We should build a vessel like the Deirdre. If one took into account the amount spent on wages and furnishings which can be manufactured here, one would see that the amount of money going out of this country would not be very great. We would then have a new vessel which would increase the numerical strength of the protection fleet and ensure that our fishermen were well protected. The Minister should consider providing a new vessel almost every year. Because of the discovery of oil and natural gas, the sea will be the target for all kinds of people who are claiming areas beyond their territorial rights. I am not suggesting that he buy man-of-war type vessels. If others feel we are adequately protected by our fleet they will be less likely to take chances. When one sees television programmes and realises that a neighbouring island can draw a circle around this country and say that these are their limits, one could get annoyed and uneasy. Therefore, I suggest that the Naval Service be expanded to the utmost extent. The ships could be built at Verolme in Cork, in Dublin or New Ross. We should ensure that we obtain as much as possible of our defence needs from our own sources.

Irish shipping plays a big part in our defence organisation. The avionics system was installed by Aer Lingus. This is an excellent idea and an advance on what we have been doing. At the moment our semi-State concerns are engaged in our defence system.

I wish to pay tribute to the personnel of the Defence Forces and the Department of Defence. The image of the forces has changed over the last year. I hope the men in the Middle East will help to bring peace to that very unfortunate part of the world. Our admiration for them increases when we realise that they volunteered to go there. I hope their work will soon be finished and they can return home. We can then say that this country has played its part in bringing to an end a conflict which lasted for almost 2,000 years. The Minister should also bear in mind what I said about rehousing the troops. I look forward to next year's Estimate when I hope to read that the Minister has decided to scrap the older barracks in Dublin, to build new barracks there and elsewhere and to hand over the present sites to the corporation for housing purposes.

Minister for Defence (Mr. Donegan)

I should like to thank Members on both sides of the House for their kind remarks about the Department of Defence and myself. I take these as a tribute not to me personally but to the armed forces and the Department. Since I joined the Department last year I have found them a most efficient and dedicated body of men doing a very good job in difficult times.

The contributions have underlined the importance of Defence and its wide-ranging implications. Every Irish man and woman has a duty to sustain the institutions of this State and never more than at present when subversions and violence threaten those institutions. We must see to it that the Defence Forces in numbers and equipment are equal to any demand which may be made on them. This is our national insurance and the events of the last five years have shown that this must be followed and how necessary it is.

I regard the Ministry as a national Ministry. Criticism of its day-to-day working is permissible and necessary, if such criticism is constructive. At the same time, a Ministry which does not bear in a general sense criticism from any right-thinking Irishman, is unpatriotic and anti-Irish. I hope I would not in my conduct of that Ministry raise any hackles on anybody's head; indeed, I would hope that it would be a national Ministry to which we all subscribe as something which is necessary and from which we would hope to get greater democracy and a greater nation. Hopefully we look forward to a peaceful future. While we may look forward to a peaceful future, we cannot say that we are even nearly out of the wood. We must accept that the hard and demanding work which is asked for, and the unceasing vigilance must go on for some time to come —a short time if we are lucky and a long time if we are not.

The people in general have a vital contribution to make. I wish to emphasise that there is no room for the double-think. It is possible that that statement may paraphrase the first remarks I have made here. There is no room for a double-think on the part of any citizen who feels that perhaps we might be easy on subversives and, at the same time, that it is right to reject the Army and support the Garda. One cannot have it two ways. One cannot run with the hare and hunt with the hounds. One must pick one's place and stay in it.

While there have been criticisms from both sides of the House I am glad that we have had that view expressed and, as a result of our contributions in this debate we can point to a Parliament which is standing four-square behind law and order. We will see to it that we do our duty in that regard.

I should like to draw attention to the difference between this country and our neighbour so far as the position of our Defence Forces are concerned. We are in aid of the civil power and I cannot repeat that often enough. Under the 1954 Act we are asked by the Garda Síochána to perform certain duties day by day. Those duties might be to patrol Border roads, protect vital installations, or to provide at all times a bomb disposal unit in the areas where they are required. They may be multifarious in their nature but they are all extremely necessary. As I said, we are in aid of the civil power and long may it be so.

We can point to the greater democracy which exists in this part of our island and say that this allows the situation to continue. I do not think for a moment that our different situation provides any lesser efficiency. Our different behaviour may lead to greater efficiency. I would at no time accept any criticism of our activities on Border patrol, in supporting gardaí at road blocks, in the protection of vital installations and any other things which are necessary items in our present security make-up. They are things that are not very colourful. It means that men have to stay in barracks when they could be at home with their wives and children. It means that men will be out in wet conditions at all hours of the night. The success of these operations means that nothing happens. It could well mean that every point scored by our opponents would be recorded and remarked upon by the media, whereas every point scored by us is buried in anonymity. The success of security is when nothing happens. One only sees the score of one's opponent. Democracy insists that subversion in all parts of this island will cease. I am proud to say that all sides of this Parliament are determined, as is evidenced from this debate, that this shall be so.

Mention has been made of compulsory military service, paying the conscripts only a nominal wage. This has not been our tradition. Voluntary military service, as we have it, relies on generous responses from all the citizens. Recruiting campaigns have so far been reasonably successful, but I want to ask citizens, if they cannot give a minimum of three years of their lives to the Defence Forces, to see to it that those whom they can influence will. In that way we shall give something towards our State instead of constantly trying to get something from it. The moral force of such people, united and firm in this attitude, will bring home to those who preach and work for violence that their efforts will be in vain and can only create bitterness and strife. If there is a message above all other messages I would wish to give today, that is the message. We in Government, with no change in the basic structure of our security arrangements since we took office, are proud of those arrangements and are determined that they shall work towards ultimate success. That is a situation whereby all men and women in this country shall go to their beds at night feeling that they are secure and wake up in the morning knowing that as long as they pay their rents, rates and taxes and obey our civil forces, they have an opportunity of attaining happiness and prosperity in the community.

A number of Deputies referred to accommodation in Army barracks and housing for Army personnel. My Department's role in regard to providing houses is a supplementary one, being related specifically to the housing needs of the Army. However, a good deal of attention has been given to the matter. I indicated when I introduced my Estimate that two housing schemes for married soldiers have recently been completed. I can now state that it has been decided to build an additional 50 houses for married soldiers at the Curragh training camp, and it is hoped to have the work commenced within the next few months.

I would like, therefore, to deal with the question of accommodation for married personnel rather than confine it to the narrow definition of married quarters. The Curragh will, in my view, remain in the foreseeable future our major military installation. The Military College is there. Largescale training activities are carried on there. The married quarters there are inadequate and in most cases not up to 1974 housing standards.

The 50 houses which were started in the time of the previous Government will now be supplemented by 50 more. I have a duty, in consultation with the officers of my Department, to bring to the attention of the Government the position and development of the Army. Whatever major decisions are made, it is quite obvious that a continuation of the building programme at the Curragh is absolutely necessary. I would hope to increase the number of houses built per year. I am working towards that with the Government and I hope to get their acquiescence in that regard.

I have devoted some considerable thought, as have the officers of my Department to the housing problems generally in respect of Army personnel. If one wants to think about the things that happen, there is the sale to Dundalk Urban District Council ten years ago of the property in Dundalk beside the Army barracks for £900 on which they are now going to build 27 houses and which we could very well do with. Blame nobody for these mistakes. Nothing stands still in this world. Nevertheless, we must look towards the position of Army personnel as far as housing is concerned.

The best house of all is the house you own yourself, and I would think that the people who are happily accommodated in the Curragh would prefer to own their own houses. I was gratified when I found that a young officer in Mullingar had set about establishing a utility society to enable soldiers to band together and get the best value they could in the provision of their own houses. He extended that operation to Longford. I interviewed the county manager of Louth in connection with the extension we are going to build in Dundalk and the fact that the Dundalk barracks certainly needs accommodation for married personnel. We have started off a further pilot scheme there. When I say "we" let me say there is no active participation by the Department of Defence or myself in this regard. What we are doing is encouraging the work of this young officer who must be congratulated on his efforts largely for NCOs and men. A further utility society is being set up in Dundalk and we hope to finalise quite soon the position on 50 sites there which will mean that when we extend this barracks and make it very much bigger, the personnel who come will also have the opportunity of buying their own houses.

An Ceann Comhairle

Could I interrupt the Minister at this stage to ask him if he would be kind enough to report progress? As the Minister is probably aware, I did propose to take two Private Notice Questions which would normally be taken at the end of Question Time today but had to await the attendance of the Minister for Labour, who is now happily in the House?

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.