Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 23 May 1974

Vol. 272 No. 14

Committee on Finance. - Vote 9: Public Works and Buildings (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a sum not exceeding £14,981,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the period commencing on the 1st day of April, 1974, and ending on the 31st day of December, 1974, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of Public Works; for expenditure in respect of public buildings; for the maintenance of certain parks and public works; for the execution and maintenance of drainage and other engineering works; for expenditure arising from damage to the property of External Governments; and for payment of a grant-in-aid.

—(Minister for Local Government.)

Mr. Briscoe

Reference was made during this debate to the Phoenix Park and the flow of traffic in it. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to take note of the fact that there is not very much observance of the speed limit by cars going through the park from Chapelizod to Castleknock. On many occasions when driving through the park I was horrified at the speed of some of this traffic. I do not know what the position is in relation to gardaí patrolling through the park but I have not noticed any and I do not know to what extent this is the responsibility of the Office of Public Works. However I am sure that the Parliamentary Secretary would be concerned that these people are speeding through the park. I should like to give the Parliamentary Secretary an assurance that the Phoenix Park has all the appearance at times of being a speed track.

Comments have also been made about horses being ridden through the park. In my view this is one of the most picturesque things about the Phoenix Park. When going through the park I like to see someone on horseback and it would be a shame to try to restrict that to a particular area. If there was any evidence of people being involved in accidents because of horses cantering through the park then there might be some justification for showing concern but I have not heard of any such accidents. I am all in favour of allowing them the use of the park.

I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary consider the provision of playgrounds for children in the Phoenix Park. There are football pitches and various amenities for athletes there but I have never seen any facilities such as a crèche. In my view we should have facilities on the same lines as those provided at St. Stephen's Green. I feel sure that the Phoenix Park would be able to hold three or four such playgrounds for children. If it is the case that such facilities are available there, then something should be done to improve the signposting to them. In recent years other parks have provided facilities for young children. Herbert Park has them and so also has St. Stephen's Green. That is something we should increase more and more.

I should like also to compliment those responsible for the maintenance of the Phoenix Park. It is beautifully maintained. I have never seen it looking untidy. The flower beds are exquisite and the citizens show their obvious appreciation in the fact that there have been no instances of mass vandalism and the destruction of flowers and shrubs.

I have noticed quite a number of visitors visiting Dublin Castle. Is a record kept of the number of visitors? The castle is one of the most beautiful buildings, interior-wise, that I know of and it would be interesting to know to what extent visitors are encouraged. Most of those visiting the castle appear to be from abroad. How many of our own citizens are aware of the existence of this beautiful building and the fact that they can visit it? They should be encouraged in that direction. Possibly a guidebook might be issued by the Office of Public Works in co-operation with the environment department of Dublin Corporation. There could be a get-together of personnel to see if something could be done to advertise the castle.

Some time ago an approach was made by Dublin Corporation to the Board of Works in regard to a proposed widening of the gates into the Phoenix Park at one point on the Chapelizod road. The proposal was rejected by the Board of Works. Only one car at a time can pass through the gate and that means that traffic on the road is held up by a car trying to get into the park; it cannot get in because there is a car waiting to come out and the car waiting to come out cannot come out because of the traffic on the road. Would the Parliamentary Secretary have another look at this? With the increase in building westwards of the city the flow of traffic is now quite phenomenal. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary, who travels this road, is aware of the bottleneck at the rush hour every evening. There is the possibility, of course, of erecting traffic signals or widening the road inside the park, if the Parliamentary Secretary does not want to widen the gateway itself. That would ease the flow of traffic.

Acquisition by the Board of Works of scenic areas around the country is to be welcomed. I was glad to hear in reply to a question earlier this year about the making available of camping sites adjacent to either the Bourn Vincent Memorial Park or the John F. Kennedy Memorial Park for young people. That is something that should be encouraged. If sites cannot be provided in the parks themselves somewhere adjacent should be equipped for this purpose so that young people can enjoy the natural beauties of our countryside.

The international environment year in, I think, 1970, certainly had its impact. Indeed, it is continuing to have its impact and I am very happy that the Board of Works are so environment conscious.

In regard to the restoration of castles and monuments one of the problems we have to face is the cost involved. This kind of work is very expensive. I sometimes wonder if it would not be cheaper to knock down a ruin and rebuild it completely in the model of its former self rather than patch up what is coming apart. That could probably be done at half the price.

Mr. Kelly

The Deputy wants to turn the Parliamentary Secretary into a second Cromwell.

Mr. Briscoe

I do not think he would need me to do that. That is no reflection on the Parliamentary Secretary.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance (Mr. Kenny)

We only preserve. We do not restore.

Mr. Briscoe

The Parliamentary Secretary might tell me the difference sometime between "preserve" and "restore".

Mr. Kenny

Later on.

Mr. Briscoe

There is a great deal of restoration in preservation work where either dry rot or damp rot is concerned. Very often an estimate for the eradication of either damp rot or dry rot bears no relation whatever to the ultimate cost. It is always twice or three times the original cost. Very often, too, the hiring of equipment is much more costly, as we know from experience, than would be the outright purchase of the equipment in the first instance.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach (Mr. Kelly)

I want to intervene briefly in regard to one particular topic. I refer to a building which, had it been put up, would have been under the care of the Office of Public Works; and to the absence of provision for it in this Estimate, coinciding with an announcement by the Government that the building would not go up in the form originally envisaged. I am speaking about the concert hall intended as a memorial to the late President Kennedy. When the Government decided they would not put up the Kennedy concert hall in the form originally envisaged but would, rather, bring back the Great Hall behind the Earlsfort Terrace building in University College to something approximating to its original purpose, and convert it, so far as that could be done, into a concert hall a great deal of criticism from voluntary organisations interested in music could be heard. Not alone that but we heard the other day the Opposition spokesman on Foreign Affairs say that, before the Government took any such decision, they should in courtesy have consulted the Kennedy family in the USA. I must say, in passing, that that particular suggestion came poorly from the party who seemed to think it less courteous to build something else than the Kennedy hall than to spend ten years doing nothing of any kind at all about it.

Mr. MacSharry

Pure nonsense.

Mr. Kelly

I think that if the Kennedy family had any reason to feel outraged or offended in regard to what has or has not been done here to commemorate them, the Opposition, who made an announcement or, as the political commentators put it, built the hall over and over again without laying a block upon a block, are the ones who need to apologise for lack of manners and not this Government who have faced, as they have had to do in so many other fields, squarely up to the problem of whether to spend this colossal amount of money on this project. As in so many other matters, this Government have made a decision on a problem which they had inherited from people who were afraid or too busy otherwise to make it for themselves.

Mr. MacSharry

You have axed the project.

Mr. Kelly

The criticism from Deputy O'Kennedy I discount for the reasons I have just explained. The criticism from those who are interested in music for its own sake is a different matter and it cannot be so easily disposed of. I want to make it clear that I have enormous sympathy with any voluntary body or group or individual who put their time and effort into work which would benefit the community and which would earn themselves little praise or thanks and still less any concrete reward for it. These remarks are not meant to be condescending—I genuinely mean that I have the utmost respect for the Music Association of Ireland, the inter-party group who considered this hall and the individuals and other organisations who showed an interest in it. I can well understand their disappointment. I hope they will bear with the Government and with me in what I am about to say when I try to put this concert hall project, for which the Office of Public Works would have been and perhaps in some future time will be responsible, into the perspective of our overall national situation.

One of the most common phrases used in defence of the Kennedy Concert Hall plan was that we were the only major capital in Europe or perhaps in the world which did not have a proper concert hall. I am sorry to say this to music lovers who, I realise, have striven manfully to do their best for the community in this regard, but that argument holds no water with me. If we were to go around this country counting all the things that are missing here but which exist in other countries we would find ourselves with one white elephant after another. There is no underground railway system in this city. We may have to have one yet, but I think we are the only capital in western Europe that does not have some form of underground railway, or partly underground railway in addition to an overground bus system. Is that a reason why we should immediately, in order to keep up with the Joneses, plough countless millions of pounds into an underground system? I think we are the only country in western Europe whose defence forces do not include a submarine force. Are we to lay on submarines just to impress the Belgians, the Dutch, the Italians and the French? We have no jet fighters. Are we to build up a jet fighter arm in order that people will think that we are now a grown up nation? That kind of argument cannot hold water with a sensible person.

We are the only capital city in western Europe with an enormously preponderant Catholic population which has not got a Catholic cathedral. Is that a reason why the Catholic population and the Catholic Church authorities should go ahead and build one, if the existing church buildings are adequate for their purpose? The answer, of course, must be no.

That line of argument is appropriate only to a very backward and poverty stricken country but not, I hope, to us. It may be appropriate to a country that is not sophisticated enough to see advance in the terms in which it really exists—the kind of country which imagines that external signs of a grandiose kind will raise it in the esteem of other countries. I hope we have long since passed that point. That was the most commonly heard argument—that we were the only capital in Europe that does not have a concert hall. As I have said, the argument does not bear examination, although the fact may be true.

I would have wished to hear in some more detail than I have heard from the voluntary organisations now so understandably disappointed some assessment of the kind of use to which an enormous concert hall of the kind originally projected would be put. I freely admit that I have not followed this closely. I am quite willing to withdraw what I am about to say if some Opposition Deputy who knows more about this so tells me. I have not myself seen a projection about the kind or size or frequency of audience which would be attracted to a concert hall of the mammoth kind originally envisaged. I have not seen any assessment of how frequently there would be serious concerts in the hall or if there were serious concerts, whether the hall would be filled or even half filled or even quarter filled——

Mr. MacSharry

Ask Deputy Maurice Dockrell.

Mr. Kelly

Will the Deputy please allow me to deal with this thing impartially? I realise that Deputy Dockrell, like others, is disappointed by the Government's decision but Deputy MacSharry will not downface me by citing Deputy Dockrell. I know quite well that he belongs to the dedicated group I have spoken about and I am not in any way trying to castigate that group. I would have hoped that these groups, in defence of their own point of view, would have been more persuasive in assuring the people that a concert hall, once erected, would be used for the purpose it deserves, namely, the giving of public performances of serious entertainment or recreation which is cognate with it—I suppose opera and ballet are music forms also. I speak very much as an outsider here but it seems to me there is not a large potential public for that kind of entertainment.

Mr. Wilson

Use it for pop music as well.

Mr. Kelly

I am just coming to that. I am glad the Deputy has mentioned it. He may be sorry he has in a minute.

Mr. Wilson

The Parliamentary Secretary scares me by rudely pointing his finger at me.

Mr. Kelly

The situation of somebody who speaks about this is always one of difficulty to the extent that he may be accused of being a musical snob or a literary snob, or some kind of snob, and possibly ignorant into the bargain. Perhaps nobody is entirely free from snobbery of one form or another, but the possibility of that gigantic hall being used by pop groups had not escaped me. I should like to tell the Deputy, if he does not know it already, that the pop industry is a multi-million pound industry all by itself, and if the pop industry want the concert hall they should pay for it——

Mr. Wilson

The pop industry would help to pay for the hall.

Mr. Kelly

——and not the people of Ireland. Moreover, when the Government's decision was announced, Professor Boydell, Professor of Music in Trinity College—if I am allowed to mention him I will do so with respect—a distinguished composer and a member of the Arts Council——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair would prefer that names of people outside the House would not be mentioned and that neither blame nor praise be attached to such persons.

Mr. Kelly

I only wanted to cite something he said which is that to convert the Great Hall behind Earlsfort Terrace could not be a satisfactory musical solution because, he said, a concert hall is itself a musical instrument, that it had to be designed from the ground up in such a way that acoustically the thing would give the correct resonance, and that to convert something that had not been originally intended as a pure concert hall could not be a success. Naturally I would not dream of quarrelling with that. I accept from a distinguished musician that he is right about that, but if the concert hall is to be used for the kind of purpose that Deputy Wilson was the first to advert to, how important is it— again, I hope I will not be accused of musical snobbery—that a pop group should be housed in a finely chiselled, perfectly resonant hall, costing perhaps by the time it is finished £10 million of the taxpayers' money. I freely confess to the House that I like classical music and do not like pop—I am damned by the sound of it wherever I go— and it may be that I am prejudiced against it. That is a purely personal thing. I recognise that other people feel differently about it, and I am not trying to take the high line with them at all. But it seems to me that to design a £10 million musical instrument to accommodate a pop group is something which this Government could not stand over or justify. As far as I can see, pop music often enough achieves its effect by volume rather than by message, and would as easily come across to its patrons in the National Stadium as it would in a £10 million specially designed concert hall. That may be a barbarous opinion; it may be that there are pop experts on the far side who will tell me that, who will persuade me that I am wrong and, if so, I will withdraw it. It seems to me that if the case is to be made seriously that we should put up a Kennedy Pop Concert Hall, which is what I take Deputy Wilson to mean, which would pay for itself through pop concerts, then we should say so and let the people——

Mr. Wilson

That is a ridiculous interpretation.

Mr. Kelly

I do not know whether the Deputy has spoken yet but he will have an opportunity of putting what he means into correct language. But it was he who first mentioned pop groups although in fact I had a note to mention them here myself because I recognise that that hall would be used for that purpose.

Mr. Wilson

On a point of information. I was not the first to mention it.

Mr. MacSharry

The Parliamentary Secretary is being very bitter, is he not?

Mr. Kelly

I have a curious record here, a not entirely unbroken record; I hardly ever make a speech without interruption.

Mr. MacSharry

It is the Parliamentary Secretary's own fault.

Mr. Kelly

And although I often interrupt other Deputies I find it hard to understand how, even on a politically non-contentious matter like this, I should not be allowed to speak for ten or 15 minutes without being barracked by the two front bench spokesmen on the far side. I do not think I have mentioned Fianna Fáil from start to finish and, if I am provoked, I may have to. But indeed there is not an awful lot of connection between Fianna Fáil or culture of any kind and it would be hard to bring the two subjects into juxtaposition without exposing oneself to a charge of irrelevancy.

Mr. Wilson

That kind of thing is not worthy of argument.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no need to raise the temperature here this morning at all.

Mr. MacSharry

The Parliamentary Secretary is so cold one could not raise his temperature.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Kelly

Deputy Wilson, the noblest Roman of them all, is one of the three or four worst interrupters on that side of the House. Despite the personal distinction that he brings to the House, I have never heard him sit quietly during any Deputy's speech from this side without putting his oar in in some shape or form. If this gigantic sum of £10 million is going to be spent on a cultural aim in this country—and I would like to see that kind of money spent— there are ways in which I would sooner spend it than building this immense concert hall in respect of which there must be doubts in regard to the use to which it would be put. I would sooner see it spent in extending and subsidising the teaching of music and the appreciation of music. I have to notice, in this regard, that the number of competitors in some of the categories in the Feis Ceoil, which is certainly one of the very longest established feiseanna in this country and certainly the best known, has been falling off steeply. Proficiency in certain instruments and in certain musical forms has been going down; prizes are not awarded because they are not sought. That, to me, is a sad thing; that, to me, is something which shows a much more radical lack and something which needs repairing before we ever start thinking of building a £10 million concert hall. That is one thing on which I would spend money. I would spend it on the provision and training of music teachers at ever higher levels. I would spend it in encouraging small musical groups, of which this country contains a large number, to go on tour and make their performances available to people who do not normally get a chance of hearing them because they live far away from the big centres of population.

Indeed, if we are talking about this enormous sum of money being spent on culture, I would spend it on subsidising RTE in such a way that they could get rid of their revolting advertisements for soap, bubble-gum, beer and building societies and enable them put on more home-made productions, whether musical or dramatic. I hope the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs will not mind my saying this—he is a big enough man to take a disagreement of this kind from his own side— I would spend that money in providing an Irish channel of television. My own view—and I do not mind being on record as differing from the Minister in this regard—is that there is not enough Irish on Radio Telefís Éireann, not that there is too much. If we are talking about spending this enormous sum of money, which would build probably 1,000 or 1,500 houses for ordinary families; if we are going to spend this kind of money on culture, I should like to see a fair slice of it being given to making sure that we have a national broadcasting service which is adequate in both languages, in both sound and vision.

Those are the remarks I wanted to make about the concert hall. I suppose I will have enraged dedicated, honourable and public-spirited people. I ask them only to consider the Government's overall responsibility in regard to the expenditure of money and to place their desire, which the Government have been obliged to frustrate after it had been put on the long finger for ten years in any case, against the background of other cultural aims which I think are more deserving of an immediate spending of money.

Mr. Wilson

I have a very short contribution only to make on this Estimate. It will be diffuse and under the headings given in the published list.

First of all, I see on page 1 of the published list item 1 (2) some money allocated to the Houses of the Oireachtas. There is one point I should like to make in this regard. I do not know if this is the special care of the Parliamentary Secretary but it has to do with the heating system in this House and building which is something that must give concern to people because, in some rooms one is roasted. Then one changes; walks along the corridor where there are arctic conditions; then one moves into another room where the heating is very high. There seems to be something radically wrong with the system of heating in the House. Speaking personally, this saps one's energy. The fact that one is in a near sweat most of the time trying to do work in rooms shared with others makes it very difficult to last out the long day's work in this House and its environment. I believe a rather expensive controlled heating system was installed in the recent past but I would respectfully submit to the Parliamentary Secretary—if it is his direct concern—that the heating engineers should get working because it is not satisfactory; it does not make for even reasonable comfort in the working conditions of Members and staff of this House.

Item 35 of this typed list deals with the restoration of the Picture Gallery Wing of Kilkenny Castle. It happens to have a special place in my heart, that whole area, because that is where I started working, in Kilkenny city. The castle itself is a very beautiful building and is beautifully situated. There had been a fine art gallery there. I see the work is estimated at £100,000. Already, £15,000 has been spent and the provision this year is £18,000, which would bring it up to about one-third of the total cost. This would provide an amenity in Kilkenny in line with the thinking expressed on all sides of the House when we were discussing the Arts Bill. It is culturally desirable that the housing of the arts and artistic exhibitions should take place in as many centres as possible outside Dublin. In that beautiful building over the Nore river at Kilkenny and on The Parade in front of it there should be an exhibition centre and a permanent display as well as facilities for intinerant exhibitions. I can only ask the Parliamentary Secretary to spend even more than he has estimated for there in order to bring that work to a speedy conclusion. Kilkenny is an ancient city and the people there are proud of their history and traditions. There are many cultural groups there who will help the Parliamentary Secretary in any way they can. When there is local backing any money spent on a venture like this will be appreciated and utilised. Due completely to voluntary effort Rothe House in Kilkenny has been restored. Some assistance may have been given by the Office of Public Works as well, but the local committee made an effort to restore this fine Elizabethan House in that parliament city.

Item 39 refers to Clonmacnoise which is to have a visitors' centre. I am somewhat disappointed to see that the provision for this centre is only £2,000. The total estimated cost is £72,000, as a provisional estimate. I have had the privilege of escorting some students from the UCD International Summer School to Athlone on a number of occasions. We went down the river to Clonmacnoise. An expert archaeologist gave a lecture on the site. It was very obvious that there were no amenities whatever there. A visitors' centre is essential where light refreshment can be had. A rest centre for the public who have walked from the jetty to the extensive graveyard is necessary. These people examine the monuments and the graveyard. This is quite easy for the students, but older people need a visitors' centre where some light refreshment is to be had.

Item 57 refers to the National Museum. A very small amount of money is provided for dealing with the stonework. I had intended to put down a question to the Parliamentary Secretary asking him was there special significance in the fact that the stonework was in the national colour. It has become greener and greener over the last 18 months. Knowing the Parliamentary Secretary I know that I would have got an appropriate reply. Perhaps I can rely on him to tell me whether it is necessary to have the National Museum coloured moss-green. The stonework there is also deteriorating. The museum has a classical facade. We are told by the experts that everything is a matter of scale and proportion. Even people who are not experts can understand that. However, there are "bites" coming out of the stonework. The edges look jagged. A larger allocation of money is needed and action is urgently required.

Item No. 61 refers to the Botanic Gardens. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary can tell me whether there is any large building which researchers could use there. Is this the responsibility of the Parliamentary Secretary?

Mr. Kenny

No. The Department of Agriculture and Fisheries look after the Botanic Gardens.

Mr. Wilson

The Botanic Gardens should have a large research centre. I am putting it on record that that would be desirable. We may have an opportunity of mentioning this point at some future date. Item No. 76 includes an estimated total cost of £80,000. It is an unrevised estimate and refers to the provision of storage accommodation for departmental records. Expenditure up to 31st March, 1974, was £64,000. I should like to refer to the necessity of examining this matter carefully. I am particularly interested in the general question of records. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary, with the help of inter-departmental committees, could examine the position of departmental records and State archives. This is an area of our public life which needs attention.

I am glad to see provision being made for the sewerage disposal unit at Ballyhaise College. The provision of £5,000 indicates that this is not being advanced with any great urgency. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will take an interest in this and push this particular project.

Item No. 99 refers to Cavan post office. The estimated cost was £80,000. A sum of £78,000 has already been spent. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary is satisfied that the building is adequate for the automatic exchange which is to be put into operation before the end of the year. I have a question down to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs asking him when this exchange will start operating. I hope there is adequate accommodation for the exchange and that the planners have ensured that if extensions are necessary they can be made in situ. The unit at the Market Square in Cavan town is pleasant looking.

I saw in the public prints, as the pedants call them, a reference to the uniforms which our ushers wear— perhaps it was a Member of this House who raised this—when they go to Europe in connection with EEC duties. I am talking on heading 114 —EEC Mission, Brussels, fitting out of new offices, et cetera. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will not admit to any responsibility in this regard. If I am being irrelevant on this point I think I am irrelevant in a good cause and, I hope, with less venom than the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach displayed when he was irrelevant for a considerable period in his contribution. I know the great humanity of the Parliamentary Secretary to——

Mr. Kenny

We are not responsible for the uniforms but we may make suggestions.

Mr. Wilson

I was just about to talk about the humanity of the Parliamentary Secretary. I am sure his suggestions will be that they will turn out as chic as the Parliamentary Secretary did in certain colours some years ago. I have not discussed this point with anybody yet, but it was indicated to me that the days they spent on the Continent are taken out of their annual holidays.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is hardly relevant.

Mr. Wilson

I do not believe that that is so, but if it were, then it is wrong. Married men should not be deprived of their holidays when they are working out of the country.

I know the Glenbay Castle and Estate very well. I worked there for a long time. There is a history of nostalgia about the area, the Glen of the Silver Birches. The late Mr. McManus wrote a very moving account of what happened in the dark and evil days in that particular valley. The Parliamentary Secretary made an announcement that it had been acquired by the Office of Public Works. The 25,000-acre Glenbay Estate was to be obtained as a national park. What is the exact position? I will not mention its American owner by name lest I come under the stricture of the Chair. He denied that the castle and its beautiful gardens, particularly the world famous rhododendron gardens, were involved in this proposition.

I know some of the staff and they were alarmed when they read in the paper what the Parliamentary Secretary had to say. In a panic they got in touch with the owner who came back as a guest of honour at a staff dinner in Letterkenny. He assured them that he had no intention of parting with the castle and its gardens. Therefore, what is the exact position? If the castle gardens and estate are to become State property and turned into a national park, will the State take responsibility for the employees? This is very important. A good friend of mine, a married man with a family, is perturbed about the possibility of losing out in a transfer. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to make the position clear. What is the exact position as between the State and the Glen of the Silver Birches?

Mr. Coogan

This Estimate covers a wide area, from the Phoenix Park to the Atlantic. It covers cultural aspects as well as many other items of interest. I should like to see the office of Public Works extend their activities to the west. They said they would drain the Corrib and they did a good job there. But there is still the follow-up work.

Talking of draining rivers reminds me of a Sunday morning at the time of a by-election. The newspaper headline said: "£20 million to Drain the Shannon." I told the people not to be fooled by Fianna Fáil promises, that they would not take as much water off the land as the people would shake off their foreheads when leaving the church that morning. That was true. This office has been abused very often for the purpose of the political furtherance of a certain party.

As I said, this office covers a wide field. It is responsible for cultural aspects, for example garden parks and national gardens. I should like to see a little of that culture extended to the west. We have agriculture but we are entitled to a bit of culture. Could the Office of Public Works help? I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary, who is from the west, to emulate the late Michael Donnellan, go ndéana Dia trocaire ar a anam. He initiated the Corrib scheme. I should like to see a continuation of that work in the draining of——

Mr. MacSharry

Who were in Government at that time?

Mr. Coogan

The Deputy obviously does not know his political history and I have not the time now to educate him. I had the pleasure of sitting behind the late Michael Donnellan in the House at that time and of seeing the work carried through. I should like to see our Parliamentary Secretary continue that work in the lesser drains which flow into the Corrib. There is a lot of flooding in bogs that could play a very important part in our fuel crisis at the moment. There are vast areas that would require only a bulldozer or what one could describe as a "backactor" to clear drains and let these floods away. Carrabrawn and Sylaun bogs in Galway have a lot to offer the city of Galway and contiguous areas where we are not too proud to burn turf and keep our homes warm with the open fire.

There is a lot of bombing in this country. It would be far better if the gentlemen responsible for these bombings went out and blasted the rocks that are choking the rivers. They would be far better thanked by unfortunate people who do not come within the ambit of the Board of Works schemes. I have pleaded with the Board of Works to deal with some small rivers that are not being looked after by the county council, possibly through lack of money. I suggest to the Board of Works that they extend their activities in this respect, especially in areas of the west where there is great deprivation due to the type of land there. Recently an EEC group went over there and said there was need for funds in this area. The Board of Works could do a great deal when these funds become available. I would not like it to be a real Board of Works job: we know the old joke about the Board of Works and the Kathleen Mavourneen system, going on and on. I believe the Board of Works would be geared for the job if a proper plan was evolved, and they should get cracking right away.

The operations of the Board of Works extend from the Phoenix Park to the far end of Inisheer. A lot of work remains to be done in making life worthwhile for some of the people, especially on the islands. For quite a long time we have been asking for a crane to be provided on the island of Inisheer. When boats come in there this crane could empty the load instead of the load having to be brought in by currach. I am not referring to the CIE ferryboat but to the trawler type of boat that can come in at certain times and unload its cargo. A which or a crane would be a great help to the island.

The small piers around our coasts are very important not only for fishing but for bringing in the weeds that are processed in factories. People are afraid to risk using some of the piers on the west coast. The west coast is exposed to the Atlantic and therefore requires more than just a few rocks that will enable a man to step out on to land. He wants protection for the boat as well as for himself. I have mentioned in the past the importance of winches on piers so that under Atlantic conditions a boat can be hauled ashore before it is destroyed in rough weather. We have seen boats bashed to pieces on rocks that are said to be piers. Proper piers and winches are essential. I mentioned this matter some years ago and I see that the Board of Works got around to the job in at least one place.

With reference to Garda stations and prisons, I cannot understand our mentality. We are building prisons with all amenities laid on, including central heating. I do not begrudge any prisoner such comfort. However, these people who lived on fish and chips go to prison and get three square meals a day. This treatment is in sharp contrast with what our Garda have to put up with. Have they got central heating? Are their meals served up to them? Some thinking needs to be done in this respect. I would like to see our gardaí having at least the same conditions as exist in the prisons. The conditions are horrible in some of the stations one goes into. What is known as the guardroom has not seen paint for years. We are recruiting gardaí in great numbers and therefore, the conditions will worsen. They are overcrowded in barracks. We should examine the question of how we are spending our money. Possibly this is a question for the Department of Justice but we should have our priorities right.

Since I became a Member of this House some 20 years ago, many thousands of pounds have been spent on Aras an Uachtaráin and this year there is provision for £10,000. It would be interesting to know how much it has cost in the last 20 years. If half of that money had been spent on drainage work in the west to improve conditions for unfortunate people who have to walk their land in wellington boots for six months of the year it would have been better spent. It is very nice to have an amenity such as the Phoenix Park, with nice flowers and everything in the garden lovely, but we must not forget the less unfortunate in the west.

We should have our priorities right and ensure that the west gets its fair share in any plans with regard to the EEC fund. I must express disappointment over the fact that western areas do not figure to any great extent in the Estimate. Admittedly a few hundred pounds is being spent on an old castle but there has been considerable provision for parks throughout the country and for areas such as Kilkenny and the Shannon. I do not know what they are doing on the Shannon but at least it is not an issue in the forthcoming elections, unlike the attitude adopted by the previous Government. A sum of £4,000 is being spent on a national monument in Athenry but that is one of the lowest items of expenditure. I am glad to see that £200,000 is being provided for new Garda stations but I do not think it will go very far. There is provision for £70,000 for the improvement of Garda stations but that would need to be considerably increased if some of the existing buildings are to be improved.

I wish the Parliamentary Secretary every success in his work. He has a difficult job to do; I warn him that I will continue to bombard his office with requests for drainage work in my area.

Mr. Tunney

If I thought that the £10,000 being spent on Aras an Uachtaráin, of which Deputy Coogan was so envious, would solve the drainage problems of his constituency I would be happy to agree that we hold up any repairs or decoration to Aras an Uachtaráin and so solve the drainage problems of the west——

Mr. Coogan

I was referring to the 20 years I have been in this House. I have seen the expenditure on Aras an Uachtaráin increase every year. At £5,000 per year for 20 years, a lot could have been done with that total.

Mr. Tunney

I am quite sure that the people of his constituency will appreciate the delicate fashion in which he handled their case, and how he would subordinate all other important matters in the country to the question of drains. As much as anyone else, I appreciate the importance of adequate drainage——

Mr. Coogan

There has been a drainage of people from the west for very many years.

Mr. Tunney

——however, I would be slow to belittle the importance of other considerations. I would be very reluctant to detract in any way from the good work the Parliamentary Secretary is carrying out in the Phoenix Park, especially in the provision of flowers for the people of Dublin and anyone else who visits the park. It is the greatest amenity we have. In any debate such as this, the Phoenix Park will always have priority in any of my comments. They are already on record and I shall not repeat them. I would appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to use his good offices to ensure that this important amenity which we have in Dublin, but which should not be regarded in a parochial way as peculiar to Dublin because it is a national asset, will be guarded in every way possible. We must resist what may be regarded as progress with regard to developing the park to a point where it loses its natural characteristics. We will have additional traffic through the park with the anticipated development of Blanchardstown, Dunboyne and the west Dublin/east Meath area. It is inevitable that there will be a tremendous increase in the volume of traffic and we will be obliged to use the up-to-date and sophisticated traffic controls which operate elsewhere.

Apart from that, I hope the Phoenix Park will be retained in its natural state. Its assets are not confined, as Deputy Coogan might contend, to visual beauty and flowers. That is a very important consideration, but there are other considerations such as health. Last week we were encouraged to interest ourselves in mental health. In attending some lectures we were not unmindful of the case made that a great deal of mental ill health derives from the pressures of modern living, especially on people living in city and urban society. What better antidote to those pressures than the tranquility of the Phoenix Park? What better opportunities are there for physical education than for our young people to avail of the vast recreational and sporting facilities provided in the Phoenix Park?

There should be a far greater concentration on this aspect of the importance of the Phoenix Park than on what I would regard as foolish and nonsensical references to Aras an Uachtaráin and the money spent to maintain it in keeping with the office which it serves. We should not try to give priority to drainage and blasting rocks in other areas. I realise that there is a need to refer to all those matters, but I appeal to Deputies from outside Dublin to look upon the Phoenix Park as their own, to look upon it as a real national asset, and not to look upon moneys spent on it with an envious eye. Speaking of expenditure on the Phoenix Park, my regret is that we are not much more flaithiúil. I know the Parliamentary Secretary shares my concern for the park.

Mr. Kenny

Quite right.

Mr. Tunney

I hope that even greater concern will be shown. I hope greater attention will be paid to the despoilation which has occurred. I will resist hammering that point on this occasion. The despoilation is now extending to the grasslands and it is occurring from unauthorised parking of motor cars along the edges of the roads and in other areas. If the Parliamentary Secretary indicates that he will look very seriously at any damage which has been caused by motorists, he will have the sympathy and admiration of everybody concerned about the Phoenix Park.

Deputy Coogan spoke about central heating in Mountjoy and what he regarded as the attributes of central heating. I want to make a critical comment on the central heating in this establishment. This is something which has been with us since the central heating system was installed. One day last week the dining hall was like an oven. Surely it must be possible to moderate the temperatures so that we can enjoy a meal without feeling near melting point.

I want to repeat my request to the Parliamentary Secretary and his predecessor that small name plates should be placed on the portraits in the hallway. I understood that was being done. As I pass by, I still hear Deputies who are presuming to enlighten their visitor friends attributing wrong names to the portraits of these famous men. I do not know the reason for that.

Mr. Kenny

Has it anything to do with politics?

Mr. Tunney

I do not know. I do not know whether this has occured recently and I suppose it is a small point, but I notice that the name on the Tom Johnson portrait is written on the canvas.

Mr. Kenny

I did not notice that.

Mr. Tunney

I am surprised. The eye the Parliamentary Secretary had when he was playing football must have dulled a little because I thought nothing would escape it.

Mr. Kenny

Age dims the eye.

Mr. Tunney

But not the mind. My final request to the Parliamentary Secretary has to do with a matter to which he is giving some attention, but not adequate attention. Having regard to his newly-found socialist company, he might share with me, even on that level, the regard which I have for what I described before as a proper balance in the city of Dublin which does not exist in regard to what might be described as prestigious buildings. What has happened under the name of planning in this metropolis is not the direct responsibility of the Parliamentary Secretary. It would appear that everything north of the Liffey, apart from the Phoenix Park, is a prison or a factory or a local authority house and everything south of the Liffey is the other side of the coin. Last year I appealed to the Parliamentary Secretary to make his contribution towards correcting that imbalance by deciding that in future Government offices would appear north of the Liffey, at least to some extent, and that his office, on behalf of Government Departments, might rent office accommodation which was available north of the Liffey and which compared favourably at least with any accommodation elsewhere. At Hanlon's Corner on the North Circular Road there is fine office accommodation at present. In Finglas Village there is fine office accommodation. Why the Office of Public Works will not take this accommodation immediately on its becoming available I do not know. Apart from the considerations to which I have already referred it would help decentralise Dublin.

We pretend to be sold on the idea of national decentralisation. I am reluctant to accept it because from the previous Government and indeed from this one I do not see ample evidence of our preparedness to accept local decentralisation here in the city of Dublin. We seem to suffer from this metropolitan affliction that everything must be located in or around the centre of the city but more especially south of the Liffey.

I can understand that there might be a reluctant initially on the part of some civil servants to move out towards Finglas or the North Circular Road but I am quite convinced that if they look at the situation obtaining, say, in Coláiste Chaoimhín in Glasnevin and talk with some civil servants who have the good fortune to work there they will realise that it would be much easier for them, that these places are much more accessible without the strain of having to cross the city. I hope that when the Parliamentary Secretary is next addressing a city audience he will make known to them that he is now convinced that there is urgent need for the sitting of Government offices north of the Liffey to correct the sins of the past and the injustices which have been done to the northsiders.

Mr. MacDonald

I should like to compliment the Parliamentary Secretary and the Office of Public Works on the reasonably good job they are doing over a very wide area. It is very easy to be critical of the work which the office are at present doing and have done over the years. We must recognise that a tremendous amount still remains undone, but that daunting fact should not deter the Parliamentary Secretary, the Commissioners and the staff from continuing their efforts to make the greatest possible contribution, which I believe they are doing.

Next year, 1975, has been designated as European Architectural Heritage Year. I find it difficult to get information on exactly what the Office of Public Works propose should be our contribution for that. I expect we will find out in time. I should like to encourage the Parliamentary Secretary to continue with the wide range of activities that lie within his area of responsibility. We should set our standards high and work to raise our overall national standards. I find it rather difficult to understand why so many Irish people constantly and almost begrudgingly set our base at the lowest and seemingly endeavour to reduce all to the lowest standard. I, with my nine other Parliamentary colleagues, find that our work brings us to the Parliaments of the nine countries in Europe. It is a pity that the complex here in Leinster House in no way, even when one looks at countries much smaller than ours, measures up to the facilities that Members of Parliament enjoy in other places. In fact, looking at Leinster House one would think that those in charge treat parliamentary democracy with contempt.

As a sovereign nation we can only expect the respect for Parliamentary institutions that we place on them ourselves. We will have European Parliamentarians coming here now more and more frequently at our invitation and it is sometimes a matter of embarrassment that our facilities are so poor. I know there is a bottom to the Parliamentary Secretary's purse but there are some things that must be tackled as a matter of urgency. I am not speaking specifically about the House here but next year will be Ireland's first Presidential year at the Council of Ministers. I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary what arrangements, if any, he has made to provide the conference accommodation, with adequate security and facilities, that we will need in the first week of January next year. Over the past year I have noted that no fewer than four of the Commissions met simultaneously. If this should happen between January and June of 1975 it will place this country in an embarrassing situation if we are not able to provide facilities.

I see from a document I have here that proposals to provide additional accommodation for the Houses and staff of the Oireachtas are being considered. I would hope that included in those proposals will be an adequate committee room with facilities for simultaneous translation using the seven official languages. This must be provided as a matter of urgency. It will be a costly piece of equipment but it is necessary if we really want to play our full part in Europe. I want to record again, regretfully, that after one-and-a-half years as members of the enlarged European Community the amount of money spent by the Rialtas on those representing the country in the European institutions could be carried in a child's moneybox. It is very distasteful to have to say this.

During this debate many Deputies referred to things which we ought to do. If we are to save our country and our people from embarrassment, as a matter of priority the Board of Works must provide long before January of next year a number of suitable venues for our meetings of the Council and of the various other European bodies. This year we will have difficulty with our tourist programme and a lot of good publicity can be gained by bringing in official international bodies for meetings here. The difficulty at the moment is that there are so few places able to take on even small conferences. We could have many more meetings of the various European Commissions in this country if we had suitable venues. There are 13 different Commissions and most of the Europeans would like to come here. If we had in the Leinster House complex a room with simultaneous translating facilities for the seven languages it would be possible to have all those Commissions meeting here. A room which would allow seating capacity for up to 70 people would be suitable and it would pay for itself in revenue in a very short time. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will try to do something about this.

Somebody mentioned our staff who work in the European Parliament and I heard the Parliamentary Secretary say this did not actually come under his jurisdiction. Nevertheless my personal view is that the uniforms look very smart but those people should have more than their present allocation. They should get a special allocation so that they can look as smart as those from the other eight member countries. Even though some of the uniforms are nearly two years old we are not ashamed of them. We are very proud of our staff working in Europe. I know I have gone away from the Estimate for the Board of Works but this matter was raised earlier. I want to keep the record straight and to press for an improvement in these facilities. I have been doing this for some time even if I cannot report much progress up to date.

I should like to refer to a few national monuments in my constituency. On a number of occasions I have asked about the Rock of Dunamace, which is of great historical significance. This site is worth having a preservation order put on it. The Board of Works should do everything possible to preserve this monument. When travelling all over Europe as a vice-president of the Commission for Cultural Affairs I come across many national monuments and visit many museums and places of culture and art. We lack in this country an appreciation of the treasures we have. I do not know why we should be so ashamed of our past that we are afraid to preserve what we have. The people from abroad who visit this country are surprised at the richness of our heritage. The Parliamentary Secretary's Department have the responsibility to preserve the ancient monuments in many parts of the country.

We also have in County Laois, Aughaboe, which is an old medieval ruin of religious and historical significance. The Board of Works should take over the preservation of this ruin. I notice that Creggan Hill, near Daingean in Offaly, has come into the news lately. This is being attacked by what could be described as industrial interests. We must look at this problem and weigh the benefits of an amenity to future generations of our people against the very short term financial gain to a company and some category of workers. I should like to see the Board of Works taking more definite action in relation to such ruins. It is easy to be critical of them in these matters but I should like to see the Parliamentary Secretary act faster on many of these matters.

I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to let me have the list of Irish architectural and archaeological sites under the aegis of the OECD which they have submitted to Europe as sites worthy of preservation and note in conjunction with the European Architectural Heritage Year. When I asked for this list I was told there was not one but then I got a copy in a European language. I would prefer to get it in either Irish or English and directly from the Board of Works.

There is a great urgency in County Laois to embark on an arterial drainage scheme for the Rivers Nore and Barrow. It should be possible to have a grant from a European fund to help with this scheme. I hope the Board of Works, in liaison with the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, can ensure that at least one of those bodies will handle this scheme so that we can get the maximum amount of benefit from European funds that may become available for this type of work. I know it is not the Parliamentary Secretary's job to tell people what they are entitled to, but people should interest themselves sufficiently in European affairs to be able to discover for themselves the headings under which moneys can be made available for projects that will enhance their way of life.

In the past couple of years we have seen the strength of the Garda station in Portlaoise increased from under 20 to well in excess of 100. Other than a mobile home for the road squad little or nothing has been done to provide suitable accommodation for this rather overstretched force. It is not much use that there are plans and that you will do something in the future. As a matter of urgency the existing accommodation must be rearranged and a block added to give sufficient accommodation to make it easier for these people to carry out their difficult task. This should be done in a matter of months. If we take the progress the board makes, for instance, in building a new national school the work can go on for quite a number of years. The board should have a priority list under which it should be possible, seeing that there is a very highly qualified staff available to provide buildings of this kind in a very short time, a matter of months. I think this must be done and in the meantime the situation could be eased by rearranging the existing office accommodation.

There is a grave security risk in Portlaoise. Also in the barracks complex we have the land reclamation office which brings many farmers into an already congested enclosure. That office could easily be moved out. I suggest the Parliamentary Secretary should look at other sites for that office in Portlaoise, even if only temporarily, and leave as much space as possible for the police. I noticed that when a march arrived outside the prison before Christmas, I think, at one stage the police decided they would close the gate at the entrance to the Garda barracks only to find that the bottom of the gate had been tarmacadamed over. That was a perfectly good iron gate but an inch of tarmacadam was keeping it permanently open. When jobs are being done by a professional body such as the Board of Works we expect a higher standard and more attention to detail. I know this job was done several years ago in peace time but even if it is only a gate that is involved there is no point in having it unless it is functional, capable of being closed and opened. It is easy to be critical of many small things like that.

Mr. Kenny

Which was wrong? the tarmacadam or the gates?

Mr. MacDonald

The job should not have been paid for unless it was properly done.

Mr. Kenny

Did the county council do it?

Mr. MacDonald

I would say the man who wrote the cheque was the man at fault when the job was not properly done. It is only a small point but I hope the accommodation there will be examined as a matter of great urgency because we cannot expect people to work unless they have suitable accommodation.

I wish the Parliamentary Secretary continued success. I hope that in a few years Ireland's tourist trade will be booming. When I meet people in Europe every week I find they are most anxious to come here. Last Saturday I had over 100 of my colleagues here for a conference for a week. They had a very enjoyable time. We showed them some parts of the country as well as making an extensive tour of Dublin. Many of these people are still in the country enjoying the Irish atmosphere. I think all Europeans will be anxious to come here and the environment here is the great thing we can offer. Therefore, we cannot overemphasise the importance of the part that our environment, our culture and architectural heritage will play in our economy in the decade ahead. I trust no effort will be spared in taking a long term look at the potential value of things that to many may seem to be only old stones. We have much to be proud of; we should be patient enough to conserve it and use it for the benefit of future generations.

Mr. Daly

I should like to compliment the Parliamentary Secretary on his very comprehensive report and express the hope that while he occupies this very important office he will direct his attention more to the west of Ireland where much further work can be done. I assure him that any support we on this side can give him in coping with problems, especially in the west, will be forthcoming as far as possible.

I should like to refer first to the River Shannon and the importance of the Shannon and the whole estuary. I should like to direct his attention particularly to the lower Shannon estuary and the very important work the Board of Works could do in developing this area on both the Clare and Kerry sides as a tourist amenity. Over the years a good deal of attention was paid to the upper reaches of the Shannon but little, if any, was given to the lower Shannon area. There is a vast stretch of waterway involved. On the Clare side alone one can look along the coast and find Kildysart, Labasheeda, Knock, Cappagh, Carrigaholt, Kilbaha and so on with miles of unspoiled waterway. No attention has been paid to these by the Office of Public Works. No attention has been paid either to the development of small piers in this area where there is tremendous potential for the development of the fishing industry. The Parliamentary Secretary should get the Office of Public Works, with the assistance of Board Fáilte, to have a closer look at the lower Shannon area to see what development work can be carried out there.

I should like to draw the Parliamentary Secretary's attention to the report published in 1973 on our national coastline. This was as a result of a very comprehensive study of our coastline and it should be consulted before development plans for my area are carried out. The problem of coast erosion is causing great concern in my area. Another problem which is causing concern, indeed it is one which could be considered to be the major problem facing those living in rural areas in the west, is arterial drainage. Nobody is satisfied that sufficient work is being done or that sufficient effort is being made to forge ahead with the arterial drainage programme. The amount of money made available for this programme will go nowhere towards solving the problem.

There are four or five catchment areas in my constituency badly in need of drainage but I cannot see any prospect of work being done on any of them inside the next 40 to 50 years. I cannot see anything being done in relation to the drainage of the Fergus, which is on the priority list, in the next ten or 15 years. The Corraclare-Dunbeg River will not be touched for many years. There are many minor catchments which flow into the Atlantic and the Parliamentary Secretary should make money available for work on these.

I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary approach the World Bank for a sizeable loan to tackle this problem because the money being made available annually is far from adequate to carry out the programme. This problem has been going on for many years but little work has been done mainly because sufficient money is not available. Many Deputies thought that when this country joined the EEC more money would be available from outside sources to carry out this work but this has not proved to be so. If a loan was obtained from the World Bank it would be possible to carry out some of the major schemes on the priority list in our lifetime.

Another matter which causes me concern is the question of maintenance work on catchment areas. There is little point in carrying out drainage work if the maintenance is not fully attended to afterwards. I am not happy that the funds for this purpose should go directly through the local authorities. The Office of Public Works when they complete such work should be responsible for the maintenance and the cost of it. I am also very concerned about coast erosion. In my constituency where there is a vast coastal area, this is a big problem and I am bombarded continuously by people who are trying to save their farms from the sea. Last year severe damage was done to the promenade at Lahinch, County Clare, but I cannot see any worthwhile work being done in this regard unless there is an arrangement made with the World Bank to tackle the problem. I understand from the Parliamentary Secretary that the Office of Public Works have received 40 proposals from local authorities and that these are awaiting attention. I could give the Parliamentary Secretary 40 more proposals but in my view no worthwhile progress can be made unless money is provided from some other source. Unless a solution is found to this problem in the immediate future this country will not be able to afford to repair the damage caused by the sea. A serious effort will have to be made to solve the problem of coast erosion and the drainage of small catchment areas.

The Parliamentary Secretary should investigate the possibility of providing amenities at the Shannon Estuary. The Shannon Free Airport Development Company recently published an extensive report of proposals for the provision of industries there but attention should also be paid to the provision of amenities in this area where there are many scenic places. I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to do something about preserving the big number of historic monuments in my constituency. I was disappointed that no mention was made by him of County Clare when he introduced this Estimate. I have raised the question of having work carried out on Carrigaholt Castle in west Clare in this House but nothing has been done. Development work on the lines of that carried out at Bunratty Castle should be done at this castle.

I am glad that the Parliamentary Secretary is arranging for the publication of information relating to parks for schoolchildren. I hope this publication is given wide circulation because schoolchildren have very little knowledge of our parks. In conclusion I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary, being from the west, will direct his attention towards solving the serious problem of arterial drainage because unless something drastic is done in this regard it will be 50 years before some of the schemes are carried out.

Mr. F. O'Brien

I should like to pay tribute to the Parliamentary Secretary for the way he covered the vast field which is the responsibility of the Office of Public Works. It is an indication of the enthusiasm and keenness of the Parliamentary Secretary for his job. I should like to take up two points touched on by the Parliamentary Secretary. The first is the Government's attitude towards the provision of office accommodation. Over the years successive Governments have failed in their responsibility in this regard. The private speculator should not have been allowed to dictate terms and, indeed, play havoc with our city. What the Parliamentary Secretary should be doing now is projecting plans for office accommodation in the future to house the various Departments of State. Such accommodation need not necessarily be cited in the centre city area. Offices to which the public do not have to have access could be located outside the city. That would relieve pressure considerably in the city itself and would put a stop to the present practice of forcing up the ante. The Government should give a lead in this. I am aware the Parliamentary Secretary is making an effort in this direction out in Clonskeagh for a training department for the Civil Service and for the Institute of Public Administration. This is an important start but there will have to be a proper plan; it must not be done piecemeal. From now on there should be a coordinated plan which will preserve the city and ensure that it is not under pressure for office accommodation only. People must be encouraged to come back and live in the city. I am glad the plan with regard to the Department of Education is going ahead. This is a move towards decentralisation. For years this was a political football. Fortunately it is now becoming a reality. I should like to see more decentralisation because it would show an interest in the country as a whole and not just in the east coast area.

Various speakers mentioned the Phoenix Park. There should be an examination of the possibility of greater development in the Phoenix Park to provide more amenities while, at the same time, preserving the character of the park. Development could take place without destroying its character. The students in Bolton Street did a comprehensive survey along these lines. It is essential that there should be maximum development out of which the people can get the maximum benefit.

I have had complaints from people about horse riding in the Phoenix Park. There is a good deal of that and it does affect the normal usage of the park. There should be specific areas in which horse riding would be permitted. No rider should have carte blanche to use the park as he or she pleases.

Some time ago the Project Art Centre requested permission in the summer months to use the railings around St. Stephens Green for art exhibitions. This should be allowed for a trial period on Sundays to see how it works. It operates very effectively in Hyde Park in London and there is no reason why it should not operate just as successfully here. This particular group are a very responsible group and they would only allow reputable artists to avail of this facility. Dublin on a Sunday afternoon, even in summer time, can be a little dull, and if we want to attract tourists it behoves us to make it as attractive as possible. Exhibitions like this take place in quite a number of countries and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to give them a try here. Once they get off the ground I am quite sure they will play an important role.

The Architectural Review which is a very influential magazine in the architectural world, has taken Dublin for its theme for 1975. It is proposed to produce a booklet on Dublin. An eminent architect and his team spent a considerable time in Dublin and he was very impressed with what he saw. He says the time has come when we must re-think our whole approach. It is most important now that the Office of Public Works should carry out an examination of our architectural and historical buildings to ensure they are preserved. It is pleasant to know that one's city is being highlighted throughout the world in this very important magazine.

I should like to see the Office of Public Works involving itself more in environment and community amenity projects. Dublin Corporation have, as was mentioned earlier, set up a special section dealing with the community and environment. That is a good thing but it is absolutely vital that we should have some group at the top working in liaison with local authorities to develop the right kind of thinking right throughout every local authority area. The time has come when the head of the Office of thinking on amenities, on our environment and its preservation and protection. This can only satisfactorily be done by the top handing down decisions and ensuring the necessary finances are available. Here, may I say, I believe the time has come when the head of the Office of Public Works should be given full ministerial status.

Today we all realise the importance of the world in which we live and, if we do not take early action, our environment will be slowly eroded. If it is nobody's responsibility it will tend to go on in this manner. It is the Office of Public Works who should make a move. If we could achieve something like that we might hope to have a proper evolution of our beauty spots, our places of historic and cultural interests. I know the Board of Works are very mindful of this but I should like them to go more deeply into it.

I am happy with the situation in regard to Garda barracks in my constituency. However, I should like to see more money being made available to have these buildings made more comfortable, happier places in which there could be a reflection of the high office of those who inhabit them instead of the dingy structures we have seen for so long.

I will conclude by once again complimenting the Parliamentary Secretary. In debate here and at Question Time he has been first class. Even in heated moments he has injected the little bit of humour which has smoothed things out.

Mr. Crinion

I was delighted to hear the Parliamentary Secretary say in his opening statement that negotiations to have the Hill of Tara bought have nearly concluded. I think the Board of Works have been overcautious in this matter. Seven or eight years ago when the property came on the market a standstill order was imposed. If the Board of Works at that time had been willing to pay the owner what might have looked like a high price it would have involved a lot less than is involved in going through the motions of negotiation and discussion. If a person is thinking of selling his property he does not like to have to wait seven or eight years to have the deal concluded. Especially in regard to this property, we should have been anxious to conclude the deal as quickly as possible. Tara was the ancient capital of Ireland, the seat of our high kings. We should not have taken any chances in regard to its purchase. It is good to know that negotiations will be completed soon.

When we effectively take over Tara I should like to see the farm developed into a truly national park illustrating all aspects of ancient Ireland. At the moment it comprises green fields and a few mounds and hollows incorporating the seat of kings and the banqueting hall. Luckily we have drawings which give an idea of what it was like in its heyday. I should like to see, even if it means the erection of some buildings, a realistic reconstruction, even in miniature, so that our people will be given an idea of what our ancient capital looked like.

The ancient banqueting hall showed the magnificent talent of our ancient architects and engineers because the banqueting hall comprised one stretch of 45 feet which was the maximum limit possible for a span. It is only in recent times, with modern techniques, that it has been found possible to equal that. The important thing is that when people visit Tara they will be able to appreciate what it was like in the days of its glory.

Tara can be made into a magnificent playground for the people of Dublin. It is within easy reach of the city, it adjoins the Boyne Valley and from the peak of the hill one has a magnificent view of four countries. Among the amenities I should like to see developed there is a children's playground. There is the acreage there available to provide such an amenity. I saw one quite recently. It covered only two or three acres. A small artificial river ran through it and there were seaside-type features provided. The children played there happily and there was no need to provide any sophistication. When asked what they would like to have provided they said they would like some pipes, eight or nine inches above the water, to provide a miniature bridge for crossing the little river. Another feature provided was a tree with a rope hanging out of it——

Mr. Kelly

I do not like the sound of that.

Mr. Crinion

It was quite safe. Naturally, it was always under supervision. The children were able to hold it; they could play cowboys and Indians or Tarzan and swing from one side of the river to the other. There were different depths to the river; at one point it was only six inches for the real toddlers and then it went up to one foot and I think at its deepest point it was 1½ feet. It was not meant for bathing but children could paddle and enjoy themselves in it. It was simple and did not take up much ground. It provided entertainment for 200 or 300 children the morning I was there.

There were other small buildings. There was a simulated classroom where they could play teachers and schoolchildren. There were also other buildings, simple and solid in construction, where they could play and climb but all were very safe. That was just one aspect of a 1,000-acre park which was developed for two fair sized towns. Both towns took a hand in the running of it and in the provision of staff.

There was another portion of it which might, say, be more suitable for a place like the Phoenix Park, where there were farm animals the children could play with. But we, being such an agricultural country, have these facilities at hand and can lean across any gate and see such animals. However, I could see a need for it in Dublin, possibly in the park, if one devoted a small area of, say, four or five acres, to farm animals with which children could play. To give some idea of the different animals there were there, I saw goats, sheep, small ponies and domestic animals such as rabbits, turkeys, hens and guinea fowl, all of which were quite tame. There were periods during which the animals had to be given a rest because they were given so much handling by the children. But it was an added attraction and I feel the children here in the city would make use of such facilities.

Mr. Kenny

Where was this, Deputy?

Mr. Crinion

It was in Holland, outside Delft, near The Hague.

Mr. Kenny

In a park?

Mr. Crinion

Yes, it is a park of 1,000 acres. There was one section of it for children, another for the farm area and another for birds. Then one had larger areas devoted to a reconstruction of dykes so that people could see what they were like even though they might be only 30 or 40 miles away. Then there was an area in which people could ride horses, or cycle or walk and where there were seats provided for those who just wanted to sit down. In the area devoted to riding there were quite a few bushes, the dwarf type, the names of which I cannot give. But they provided shelter and gave people the impression they were living in prehistoric days, riding through the woods and so on. There were plenty of roads running through the park. Cars could come in and park and there were plenty of grass margins on which to pull in off the road. In the park itself, one did not have fast traffic but as far as I can remember there was a fast road at one end of it.

This park was on the outskirts of the town of Delft but that town was not sufficiently big to be able to run or pay for it alone, another town helped also but the State provided the park. It struck me that it was something we might well consider here. Some aspects of Tara could be developed as a pleasure ground for children or for families who would go there on Sundays. There is the acreage there to be developed and it is within easy proximity of Dublin and the airport. Our eastern coast has not very many facilities regarding amenities for tourism. Perhaps some old buildings could be reconstructed and restaurants and so on made out of them, making it a general area of recreation, particularly for families.

It would be a worthwhile task if officials of the Board of Works were to examine national parks in other countries and co-ordinate any information they might glean. In Tara, at the moment there is just one shop outside it and another person is thinking of setting up a restaurant there. It is a shame to think that such a place of national importance, once the seat of kings, with a population of 20,000 back in the time of St. Patrick, should be so overlooked. There could be drawings and illustrations placed there to explain the historical background.

The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned that he was developing a programme of building for Government and public department requirements. It is certainly a worthwhile task to provide our own buildings but, from the financial point of view, one must remember that there is always a scarcity of capital. I always feel a Government should use any capital they can for developing industries which will provide employment for the people. There has been a trend in recent years—one possibly not very popular with the public—of the building of office blocks by private enterprise. It may be said that the renting of office accommodation saves the use of capital. Sometimes speculative builders get their money from abroad. Some buildings have been taken over for use by Departments such as the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. They are on long-term leases. The rents may be reviewed after a short time. The capital which the speculators use might go to other countries if they did not use it here. I agree with the policy of building offices in provincial areas. Speculators will not build office accommodation in the provinces. The Government should build their own office accommodation there.

The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned a stand-by generator for some Government Departments. Leinster House should have such a generator. Last year we had to carry on with dim lights. The seat of Government should never be affected by industrial action. The Government and the Legislative Assemblies should always appear to be in control. It would be sad if we had to adjourn because we could not carry on without essential services. Lamps have been used in the House.

There should be a stand-by water supply here also. When a coup d'état occurs in any country the seat of Government and the radio services are usually taken over. Public demonstrations are often held at the seat of Government.

We have been rather slow to provide money for the building of new schools. There are usually long delays where new schools are concerned. With the increased population which leads to a demand for extra schools it is wrong to have so many prefabricated schools. They were suitable when the demand for secondary education rose suddenly because of the introduction of the free education scheme. Many school managers took advantage of that situation. Prefabs were available on payment of a few hundred pounds and the Department provided the remainder of the money. New schools of a conventional type would have cost thousands of pounds. The cheapness of prefabs enticed many managers to use them. It was easier to collect a few hundred pounds than to collect thousands of pounds. Many of the managers are old and they say: "That will do for my time. Another priest will come after me and he can worry about this". Precast buildings can be put up quickly and are of durable construction. They will last up to 100 years. We should not consider buildings which will only last about 20 years. I am a great believer in having bricks and mortar which will stand up for many a long day. That is where you could use some of the capital saved by renting office accommodation in Dublin.

The same would apply when providing new buildings for the police force. By the time the new Garda stations are built they are already out of date. My own village of Kinnegad got a new Garda barracks last year. Originally it was intended to accommodate four gardaí. Today there are 12 or 13 there. The same applied to Enfield. The reason for the sudden upsurge in Kinnegad is that the village is on a main arterial road and the gardaí must do round the clock patrols. Enfield is also on a main arterial road but during the past few years a new explosive factory was built within a few miles of the village. Naturally it must be well protected or we might find that we are supplying ammunition to undesirable sources.

When Garda numbers increase it should follow naturally that an extension would be built to the Garda station. This does not happen. This means that people are working in very cramped conditions. When men are on night patrols they should be supplied with flask and sandwiches. There is nothing as lonely or as monotonous as standing on a lonely bridge all night and stopping the four or five cars which might pass. Refreshments at such a time would be very welcome. This point is worth considering. We are living in an age where our police force may have to curtail our freedom more than we would like in order to ensure our safety. For our own safety, the public must be prepared to accept these inconveniences. It is only through such vigilance on the part of the Garda that what happened last Friday will not be repeated.

There was a large arterial drainage scheme started in my constituency in 1969. The Office of Public Works have been doing an excellent job in the drainage of my county. The portion of the Blackwater which goes from Meath to Kildare has been completed but the portion which goes through Kells has yet to be completed. There was an area in my constituency of 5,000 acres which I used describe as a sea of rushes. I remember a farmer telling me that his father told him that they used to grow rape, which seemingly was a very popular crop for seed purposes, about the 1870s on that particular farm. If one looked from the farmhouse window one might say that even the snipe would get rheumatism there. From inquiries I discovered why it had become so wet. Up to 1900 the landlord used to clean the Blackwater and some of the tributory drains. About 1900 they stopped doing that, the river silted and created what are called in the country "sharps". As with the bar in the mouth of a river the water went over this but did not leave the land. Although the rushes are still there one can see a rusty tinge on the top of them which shows they are dying. With the ordinary Land Project work and field drainage which one would expect to take place, now that the work is done, it is only a matter of years before we see green fields in that area. It is heartening to see the results of this work. As the years pass farmers will take over from the Office of Public Works and do this drainage work. This will provide extra land to carry the extra stock which in turn will provide a better livelihood for the farmers in the area.

A new scheme was started five or six months ago. The spoil is now being buried and levelled over. When the job is done it looks very well and the farmer can grow grass on it straightaway. I understand that it does not cost much more than if it were left there and merely levelled. The Office of Public Works have the facilities to bury this. It is easier to bury this when cleaning the river than to expect the farmer to sink it and then bury it. That would have doubled the job for the farmer, who might not always have the facilities for doing this work.

I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on the work he is doing along these lines but I should like to see it extended to clearing the drains through the farms. Will he give that his consideration? When he sees how well it has taken place on the river, perhaps he would consider doing all the tributaries and the drains in the scheme from now on in order to put a good finish on the work.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.