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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 18 Feb 1975

Vol. 278 No. 4

Private Members' Business. - Price Control: Motion.

I move:

"That Dáil Éireann condemns the failure of the Government to honour its promises in regard to control of prices; notes with concern the apparent intention to enforce even less strict price control; and calls for the implementation of the various available forms of assistance to industry which will help firms in difficulties without resorting to further price increases."

In putting down this motion for debate by the House I, on behalf of the Opposition, am only reflecting the views of the entire public, irrespective of what their political views might be or might have been on previous occasions. The entire country is shocked and horrified at the rate of inflation that has been allowed to build up and that little serious effort seems to have been made to control prices, in particular, as a major factor in inflation generally.

It is no harm to remind the House that in February, 1973, before the last election, a document was brought out which was known as the 14-point plan. It is a document we do not hear a great deal about in recent times because it has been convenient for the Government to forget about its provisions. Nonetheless, there was such a document which made some impact at the time, and if there was any one point in it that made a special impact on people it was the pledge in that plan, as one of the 14 points, that not alone would prices be controlled much more strictly than they had been up to then, but that they would be stabilised at their March, 1973, figure, when the new Government came in.

There were many people who were gullible enough to believe that was going to be implemented because it was sold to them on the basis that it could be and would be implemented. We have seen what has happened since. We have seen an inflation rate of less than 10 per cent turn, within 18 months, into an inflation rate of more than 20 per cent. The last full year for which we have figures is the year to mid-November, 1974, when it was 20 per cent. I would have thought we would have had the mid-January figures by now, but apparently we have not. I know the figures are issued only quarterly and there will be no figures until the mid-February figures are issued, which, presumably, will not come out until mid-March or later.

That promise was given solemnly, that prices were going to be controlled and stabilised at their March, 1973, figure. I know the 14-point plan did not say that in so many words; it did not say March, 1973, but that is the basis on which this infamous, unfulfilled plan was sold, and this was one of the principal planks in that platform. It was probably the one which made the greatest impact and on which a certain number of people had reliance.

If Dáil Éireann were to do anything but condemn the failure of the Government to honour its promises in regard to price control, it would make itself look foolish. The country, needless to say, has never seen anything like the situation we have seen in the last 23 months, and please God we shall never see it again, but while this Government remain in power we cannot be certain we shall not see it again.

In this motion, having asked the Dáil to condemn the failure of the Government, we go on to ask the Dáil to note with concern the apparent intention to enforce even less strict price control. This is something I cannot exactly quote day and date for because there have been several conflicting statements from Ministers in relation to this. They have made statements, contradicted them, contradicted the contradictions, and recontradicted them again.

Has the Deputy day and date for that?

We are not quite clear where we stand. In particular, we had the Minister for Transport and Power, answering here in this House for the Minister for Industry and Commerce, saying one thing and the Minister for Industry and Commerce, coming back from abroad or wherever he was, saying another thing, but in general leaving a considerable area of doubt as to what the intentions are in regard to price control.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce has indicated that unless price controls are lessened certain firms may be in danger and thereby employment may be in danger. Unquestionably, many firms are in difficulties at the moment, but there are several ways of getting those firms out of their difficulties and ensuring continuity of employment for their employees, that is, those who have not already lost their employment other than simply the very easy and lazy way out of just letting the firm in question put up its prices.

So far as prices generally are concerned, the Government, in ease of their failure to honour their promises —and even if they had never made these promises they would still have an obligation to control prices—have blamed outside influences and said these are responsible for the uncontrolled inflation, for the almost uncontrolled rise in prices taking place every day of the week. This seems to imply that outside influences on this country or any other country never began to have any bearing or influence on the situation until 14th March, 1973, when this Government came into office. Outside influences always had some bearing, but their bearing at the very most —and in this I am backed up by the views of the Central Bank—do not exceed 50 per cent, and 50 per cent of the pressures which lead towards price increases are domestic factors entirely under the control of the Government. That is not just my view. It is the view of a great many people, including the Central Bank which can be quoted as an authoritative responsible source of commentary on these matters. If outside influences were responsible for 50 per cent of our inflation, they were responsible in 1974 for a 10 per cent rise in the cost of living but factors which are directly under the control of the Government were responsible for the other half of the increase. There has been little effort on the part of the Government to endeavour to control that situation. To give an example— from the Minister's point of view, perhaps I am picking the best type of example because he and his colleagues have made more noise about the cost of oil than about any other outside factor in price rises—we are in the situation of not knowing how much offshore oil we have. We know there is some. There may be a lot and there are many companies both from Ireland and from various other parts of the world with, apparently, the necessary capital, expertise and equipment who are very anxious to begin searching for that oil. They are anxious to begin the detailed exploration which would make us aware, within, perhaps, six to 12 months, of how much oil we have.

Is the Deputy suggesting that there are not any companies looking for oil off our shores? Does he forget the agreement reached in respect of the Continental Shelf or does he not know the companies that are there? Is he not aware, either, of the terms under which these companies were allowed to begin looking for oil?

Order. Deputy O'Malley, without interruption.

A small part of our offshore resources are being explored.

The Deputy should do his homework.

There are many other companies that are anxious to be given the opportunity to look for this oil. Because of the discovery made by the company that are there, there is every indication of there being plenty of oil. Despite this, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, throughout a 23-month period has not given one lease or made one arrangement with any of these companies that would enable them to go in and search for the oil.

I fail to see how oil exploration comes within this motion on prices.

He has to talk about something.

If the Minister wants it rough and wishes to carry on in that fashion, I am capable of meeting him.

Why does the Deputy not talk about the motion?

This is very interesting. Perhaps certain recent events have caused this effort on the part of the Minister. In attempted exoneration of himself and his blatant failure during a period of almost two years to control prices, the Minister has claimed that oil was the principal cause of the increase. I am telling him that there appears to be a lot of oil around our shores but that he has prevented anyone new looking for it. He comes here now with sniggers and sneers. That is his effort.

Why does the Deputy not speak to the motion?

Order, please.

I wish to make a speech but I am being interrupted continuously by this impertinent Minister. I am sick of it.

The word "impertinent" means not relevant or genuine and that is what the Deputy has been.

Order, please. There is a time factor in respect of this motion. The Chair is anxious to ensure that Members are allowed to speak without interruption.

I regard it as being extremely unfair that I am being interrupted continuously. I am not being allowed to speak.

The Chair is doing its best.

With the greatest respect, Sir, I do not see that you are trying that hard.

The Deputy ought not to reflect on the Chair.

I have no wish to reflect on the Chair but the Chair should realise that Ministers, as well as everybody else, should obey the rules.

The Chair will do its duty.

Although the Minister for Industry and Commerce is screaming about the effect that oil is having on us, he is refusing to do anything to enable oil which unquestionably we have within our jurisdiction to be obtained and brought into use for the benefit of our country. This oil would cause a reduction in oil imports and would result also in a reduction in the cost of oil. The same applies in respect of natural gas.

Of the various steps available to a Government in relation to price controls, the most fundamental is the establishment of a prices commission. This step was taken by Fianna Fáil in mid-1971 at a time when the rate of inflation was less than 8 per cent. Since then that commission have remained in existence. The scope of their work has been expanded to some extent because they now have more staff but, basically, their terms of reference remain the same as when the commission were established. If any thing, some matters which were under their control originally have now been removed from their control. The most important of these were animal feedstuffs and fertilisers which were removed from the supervision of the commission at the beginning of 1974. This step was taken by the Minister for reasons which nobody could ever be clear on although many people have certain suspicions. There were definite limitations on the powers of the NPC and these are set out in some detail in their December, 1974 report. This makes interesting reading. It is a kind of apologia pro vita sua of the commission. The commission—and this is understandable—considered it necessary to point out the limitations on what they can do and to enumerate the vast range of activities in respect of which they have no control.

I am not criticising the NPC as such. They should have been given greater powers. Frequently the argument is made to the NPC that unless certain firms are granted permission to increase prices, they will be in danger, because of their liquidity problems, either of having to close down or of having to cut back on employment. If any such firms are not subject to the commission—and a great many are not—they use this argument as an excuse to increase prices so that they may increase their turnover and cash flow.

Liquidity is dependent on their having available sufficient money to restock and to build up their capital requirements and assets. One of the ways in which many firms have been hit badly during the past 12 to 18 months in so far as liquidity is concerned is not so much that of their turnover, although their prices may be controlled, but because of their banks pressing them all the time to reduce their working capital. Firms are finding this an impossible situation but the only outlet they have in order to try to keep up their liquidity has been continuously to apply for a whole series of price rises. If the Minister were to approach the banks on the basis that they should ease off these firms, let them increase their borrowings and stop pressing them to repay what they have already borrowed, the pressure of liquidity would be eased and, correspondingly, the pressure to increase prices to make up for that would be eased.

At the moment the Central Bank have been advising the banks to lend more in certain respects to manufacturing firms. When they are approached by these firms the bank say: "We have not got the money to lend." The reason they invariably give for not having got the money to lend is that the Government have taken so much from them, through the huge deposits which have to be made to the Central Bank, that they are bled dry so far as lending capital is concerned. I do not know if this story on the part of the banks is 100 per cent right. If it is right, clearly the Government should reduce the amount which the Central Bank are being compelled to take and hold all the time from the associated banks. They should ensure that the banks lend much more generously to the manufacturing firms than they are doing.

Because of the nature of inflation, the tax demands on firms are exceptionally heavy. Not that the amounts are necessarily any heavier, but because of their liquidity position, they find it impossible to pay. A gesture was made to them in the budget in this regard, worth over £12 million to every firm in the country as a composite figure. To make any realistic impact on prices that figure should have been in the region of £50 million or £60 million. In the very same budget in which this very minimal gesture was made towards helping the liquidity of companies in difficulties in relation to the payment of tax, the interest on outstanding tax, of which there must be a fair bit at the moment, was increased to 18 per cent per annum, simple interest. When that is compounded it comes out at something over 20 per cent per annum. Of course, this is a brutal imposition on firms who already find it extremely difficult to pay the tax they owe. They are in arrears and find enormous problems arising from their liquidity position.

The Government have also open to them the whole question of the readjustment of VAT rates. In England there is a flat rate of 8 per cent across the board. Here we have three rates basically. There is a fourth rate which applies in certain circumstances. The two top rates are extremely high by any standard. By comparison with Britain they are extremely high, and by comparison with most, but not all, European countries they are also extremely high. Although they have problems of their own so far as prices are concerned, most of those countries have not problems anything like ours.

Governments elsewhere have adjusted the system of indirect taxation to take account of price rises and to take account of the difficulties created by flat rates of tax. Governments elsewhere recognise that every time there is a price rise the Exchequer benefits by it. Every time the price of any commodity which is subject to VAT goes up here, the Government get more out of it. To a great extent the Government have a vested interest in increased prices inasmuch as every time the price of something goes up they get more into their own coffers.

Perhaps the most obvious of all the various steps open to the Government to take, which they are not taking at the moment, is the question of subsidies, and in particular subsidies on food. In Britain certain commodities such as butter, milk, and so on, which are paid for, for the most part, out of EEC funds, are subsidised. The farmers throughout Europe are getting much the same prices. If there is any difference our farmers seem to be getting somewhat less, unfortunately, than the farmers in other countries. In Britain, to take one example of a commodity which is virtually in everyday use, butter costs just over 50 per cent of what it costs here. The difference in price is made up almost exclusively by subsidies which the British Government are prepared to pay in order to keep down the price of butter and many other commodities which are vitally necessary.

In the past 18 months we have had some brutal increases in prices, and particularly in food prices, so much so, that pensioners and other lower paid people find it very hard to buy ordinary day-to-day food. Instead of buying a week's supply, perhaps they buy a three or four-days' supply. It is very irritating for an Irish housewife in a Border town on our side of the Border, say, in Monaghan or Dundalk, to see butter in her shops at 41½p, 42p or 42½p per lb. and to know that five miles away in Newry or some other town just over the Border, exactly the same butter, probably manufactured here in the Republic, is on sale for 22p, 23p or 23½p per lb. We are told that we must put up with that situation. Allegedly this is one of the necessary consequences of the EEC. Allegedly it is one of the necessary consequences of the, happily, much better prices our farmers are getting as a result of our entry into the EEC which the Minister and his colleagues did so much to try to prevent.

The implementation of price control seems to be geared, in so far as it exists, towards the retailer and at no other level. Any kind of objective view of the problems which are giving rise to price rises, taken as a whole, would show that the real problem arises at the production and manufacturing level. Little or nothing is done to encourage better internal methods of production, better control of costings at that level. The whole effort is made and is seen to be made at retail level. With the huge variety of goods on offer in most retail shops, and with constant price rises, the retailer cannot be expected to be 100 per cent accurate in every price, in every week. We know only too well that the price of many commodities can vary, not just from month to month which was bad enough at one time, but nowadays from week to week.

Increases in the price to farmers for beef and milk were announced within the past week after an EEC decision. Inevitably, unless subsidies are introduced, there will be further increases, within the next couple of weeks at the outside, to the consumer in the price of all these items. Butter, milk, cheese and meat are fundamental basic necessities for everyday life. Their prices have been going up and up, and they will go up again. With all the extra money which, happly, is coming into the country as a result of our entry into the EEC, and having regard to the good prices farmers are getting for beef and milk, surely it is possible for the Government to devote some of the extra money coming into the Exchequer to the subsidisation of these essential commodities, as has been done in Britain very successfully.

One of the things the Government have constantly argued is that world commodity prices have been going up; what has to be brought in from abroad is going up and they have no control. It is well worthwhile studying the trends in world commodity prices over the past 12 months and the Minister would be well advised to do so. While they vary to some extent, the overwhelming impression one gets, looking at the trend, in nearly all world commodity prices, is that they have all dropped, some of them very substantially indeed, over the past 12 months. Most metals have dropped. So have a great many other commodities essential either at the food level or as part of the manufacturing process. One of the things people do not realise is that the world price of timber has dropped very substantially in the last nine months or so. Unfortunately, we are in the position that we are unable to avail of this drop because our suppliers here are fully stocked at prices that were ruling about a year ago and they have been unable to move the timber because of the disastrous slump in the building industry over the same period. It is no harm to emphasise the fairly continual drop in commodity prices, particularly those which affect our situation; that excuse is no longer available to the Government.

Equally, there is one sphere in which the Government cannot, as they have been trying to do, wash their hands of responsibility so far as price rises and price control are concerned. I refer to the price rises they themselves have deliberately as a matter of policy imposed on the people. I shall give five or six examples only over the past three months alone. Over the past 23 months I could find ten times as many examples. I am confining myself to the last three months because I can give quite a number of very telling examples where the increase, very often a huge increase, was deliberately imposed by the Government as a matter of policy. In the last 18 months postal charges have been deliberately increased by the Government by 75 per cent. The cost of posting an ordinary letter 18 months ago was 4 pence. It is now 7 pence, or almost 1s 6d in terms of old money. The Government cannot claim that wages or costs forced them to impose that increase because the increase in costs would actually be less than one-third of the actual increase imposed by the Government.

Television licences have been increased on average by 40 per cent. Health contributions have been increased by over 80 per cent. These charges are charges deliberately and directly imposed by the Government and by no one else. In one five minutes here at the end of November the Government by a surreptitious backdoor method increased the already very high cost of petrol by 15 pence a gallon on the spurious suggestion that, in doing so, they were doing the country a service by encouraging people to use less. It was not the Arabs who increased the price of petrol by 15 pence a gallon at the end of last November. It was this Government increased the price of petrol and the Minister and his colleagues in the Cabinet have collective responsibility for that, whether they know it or not and whether they act that way or not.

Following on the dodge at the end of November we had the health contributions budget at the beginning of December and the withdrawal of the subsidy on butter. The latter caused a further increase in the price of butter. In the middle of January of this year we had another budget—the Government actually called it a budget— which had the effect of putting up the cost-of-living index by 2 per cent to 2½ per cent, and that at a time when the Government were asking for rigid restraint in wage and salary demands, saying there is nothing they can do about prices, they are very sorry, and all the rest of it. They deliberately came in here and put a huge increase on tobacco, spirits and beer, deliberately putting up the cost-of-living index by 2 per cent to 2½ per cent. They made all sorts of glib comments to the effect that people should not be smoking and drinking. The fact is the great majority smoke or drink or do both and they will continue to do so. If they did not continue to do so the 2½ per cent rise in the cost of living would not take place. But we know now as a result of what has happened, that it is very likely that in the 12 months to November, 1975, the cost-of-living index will rise by not less than 25 per cent.

The criterion on which to judge whether or not a country had entered the Banana Republic league was whether its annual rate of inflation had reached 20 per cent. We, of course, have reached that now and we are set fair to exceed it considerably in the months ahead. In addition to that, in the last budget there was yet another major tax increase to which very few people have adverted because we have not yet got the details of how much it will be. I refer to the increase in the social welfare stamp. The worker will have to pay his share of the stamp and that is just as much a tax on him as income tax is. Its deduction from his pay packet is not made any sweeter for him by calling it a social welfare contribution rather than an income tax contribution. On the day of the budget we made several efforts to discover exactly what the increase would be. The Minister for Finance sat mute. He did not say he did not know. He did know but he refused to answer. The probability is that the cost of the stamp may be doubled. It is already pretty high. I suppose the Government think they are making a contribution there towards lowering prices. They are doing nothing other than making yet another hidden price increase as a matter of deliberate Government policy following on the pattern they set when they raised the VAT rates.

I would be the first to acknowledge that there are limitations in certain aspects to what a Government can do. Possibly one-third of price increases are beyond their control, but there is one thing any Government most assuredly can do at any time and that is refrain from deliberately driving up costs. Where State service commodities such as postage have to be increased the increase should be the absolute minimum instead of three times more than is necessary. This country is practically punch drunk from the way it has been hit since the advent of this Government in the matter of prices. The situation has got so bad that many people are almost despairing. They see the Government have given up the battle psychologically and in practice of trying to control prices. All I can say to these people is that they will have an opportunity of making their comment at the next general election. They can then pass judgment on the flagrantly cynical way in which one of the famous 14 points, that in relation to the stabilisation of prices, has been dealt with. That is the only effective opportunity those people have. I hope sincerely they will avail of it. If Dáil Éireann were to vote honestly for once and if those behind the Minister were to express in public what they freely express in private, the motion I am now proposing would certainly be passed.

It is interesting the way the atmosphere of the Ard-Fheis carries over into the Dáil.

Jealousy will get the Minister nowhere.

The hustings are not yet and I think this motion deserves more serious treatment than the sort of church gate tub-thumping oratory it received this evening. It is interesting from this side to observe how rapidly psychologically the Opposition have settled into the mental attitude of permanent Opposition as expressed by the total irresponsibility and unreality of the criticism that is offered. One would expect that people who relatively recently knew what the decisions of office were like would at least for a little longer retain a sense of responsibility. We have not found it. We have found a totally negative approach, so easy if there are better solutions to our own and then, as I have said elsewhere, either we would accept them as being obviously wise and correct, in which case the Opposition would be dictating policy, or else we would reject them because they came from the Opposition in which case we would seem to be playing party politics with a serious situation. If they had better suggestions it is so easy to seize the initiative and to seize the leadership of the country. Instead of that we see the sort of tendentious juggling with statistics and the sort of totally destructive taking of positions which are at simple variance with recently held positions in a way that I will show.

Most of what Deputy O'Malley had to say related to issues that are not relevant to his spokesmanship or to my Department and much of what he had to say was not relevant to the current crisis of inflation. It may be that he wants to be the spokesman on Finance as well as the spokesman on Industry and Commerce, which is perhaps a legitimate aspiration, but I do not propose within the Standing Orders of the House to follow him into the areas to which he devoted so much time where he talked of financial matters except in the matter of VAT which is so marvellously ridiculous and such a perfect example of the shortness of memory. I remember when VAT was introduced by the previous Government. We in Opposition suggested that food should not carry VAT. We were argued down and voted down. Then when we removed VAT from food——

The price of food was higher a month later.

The ordinary individual never knew it was removed.

What good will it do anyone?

When we removed VAT from food the Opposition were opposed to that. Now the people who put VAT on food when they had the power of decision and who opposed its removal, within a short period of time had the effrontery, without acknowledging a change of position to advocate subsidies. I acknowledge the right of people to change their minds but I find is more than pitiful when they have not got the courage to admit to a change of mind. Does Deputy O'Malley now tell us that the imposition of VAT on food was wrong? Silence.

The removal of it did not do anything to reduce prices.

He asked me a question, Sir. Am I to answer it or am I not?

The Deputy is not answering. He is evading an answer.

Off tea and on to detergents.

There is a substantial difference between tea and detergents.

Would the Deputy like to tell us that the opposition to our removal of VAT from food was an incorrect opposition?

I would not. What we said at the time was that within a couple of months the price of food would be higher than it was with VAT on. Unfortunately it was not even a few months.

This is the pitiful change of direction.

We were only too right.

The liberty of Opposition, that you can face in all directions simultaneously. Now we have an argument for subsidies. This is interesting because I have heard murmurings about subsidies but I have not heard a clear espousal of subsidies by the Opposition. I would again ask Deputy O'Malley, on behalf of his party: "Are you in favour of food subsidies?"

Yes. At the moment yes, and they should have been there over the past 12 months.

We have a clear answer on that. We will come to the facing in all directions about costs in a minute. Deputy O'Malley gave the example of butter. He said it costs 41p to 42p a lb here and 22p a lb in the UK. To reduce the price of butter by 15p a lb here would cost £12.4 million, to reduce it by 20p would cost something over £16 million. Deputy O'Malley has just said explicitly that he wants subsidies on food but if that is the cost for butter, the amount for milk, cheese, tea, flour, bread and sugar——

And detergents.

——would be £80 million or £90 million. It is a serious question as to whether that is an appropriate way to spend £80 million or £90 million. I think subsidies are a sort of blunderbus instrument which reduces the price to every consumer and if I had £80 million I would rather spend it in a more precisely targeted way. At this moment, at a time when the needs for stimulating the economy in specific ways are pretty clear to everyone, I am prepared to say what I would rather do. I would rather spend it on social welfare and on stimulating the building industry and what I had left over from that I would rather spend in other ways. The luxury of Opposition is to create cash at a flash of the tongue which is not possible with the realities of Government.

I do not know that what Deputy O'Malley said merits analysis but I will at least try to pay him the compliment of analysing what he said. He talked about what we were doing wrong in regard to the banks. He said we were bleeding the banks dry. However, he has just asked for subsidies which would involve, at the sort of rate we talked about, another £60 million, £80 million or £90 million. To come from where? From the banks that we are already bleeding dry or from overseas borrowing?

The money will come back to the banks.

Do the Deputies opposite think the banks should lend more generously? Can they tell us with what? Are they saying that the tax demand should be reduced by £50 million or £60 million? It is perfectly simple and easy for an Opposition to say that a Government must give out more and take in less in taxation. That is very easy, even luxurious, but it is irrelevant to the real dilemmas that exist. With regard to VAT on food, the people who at one moment say, "put VAT on food" and a little later, having opposed its removal, who cry not only for its removal but also for subsidies, are blowing with every wind, are looking for every cheap onslaught which is irrelevant, do not recognise the situation and are hard to take seriously.

Deputy O'Malley made a point about world commodity prices. It is true that many world commodity prices have stayed up in price but many have declined. However, not having thought his way through it or having teased out what he meant, he argued, at a time when people are locked into commodities they purchased when prices were high, that we should use price control more rigorously. He gave the example of the timber industry; this was a good example because throughout the country there are people, as the Deputy correctly realised, who are locked into stocks which they bought at high prices and they are in trouble.

If we tease out what using price control in regard to the timber industry really means, does the Deputy suggest we bankrupt the people in the industry? Surely he does not want to do that—I am not putting words into his mouth. However, what does he suggest we do? Does he not recognise that the value of a rigorous price control is at a time when prices are rising, not when prices of raw materials have reached a plateau? With an innuendo he did not have the courage to follow or to put on the record of the House, he gave the example of the price of animal feedingstuffs. I will defend the record because once the dramatic rises were over for animal feedingstuffs and with prices on a plateau and eroding we have had the functioning of a normal price mechanism in animal feedingstuffs which has given the farmers better value than price control——

Did the Minister say better value?

Yes. The Deputy behind knows that is true.

Is it not a fact that the co-operatives caused the prices to come down?

The co-operatives have behaved very well but where a price is fixed that is the price. Can we not have a consensus that the price mechanism is better than price control, that the price mechanism operating through competition works better and that we prefer that mechanism where it is operable to price control? Are we in love with a system of direction that controls from a central point?

When price control was taken off the price of fertilisers went up by nearly 100 per cent——

The Minister should not be interrupted when he is making his contribution.

With regard to animal feedingstuffs, the experience of the removal of price control was a good and correct experience——

NET did not do the same for farmers as the co-operatives did with regard to prices.

In the midst of worldwide inflation this is a great issue. Let the Deputies opposite thump away, let them make the church gate speeches, the Ard-Fheis and the general election speeches——

The Ard-Fheis speeches seem to have hurt the Minister. He is very touchy about them.

I am not in the slightest touchy about them. I am saying they are irrelevant to the real situation. The Ard-Fheis is an excitable situation where everything is good for a cheer——

What about Leisure-land?

I am suggesting it is totally irrelevant to the real situation.

I would remind Deputies that there is a time limit to speeches and interruptions are most unwelcome.

Let us consider the various components of prices. We have recommendations to spend almost £100 million on food subsidies. The British have done it and they have had the effect of a one percentage point or a two percentage point influence on the cost-of-living index. In any event they will have to phase them out soon so that there is a deferred effect.

The prices the farmers get are Community prices. As Deputy O'Malley correctly remarked, I am critical of the Community but the one advantage I gave to joining the Community—I did not think it would last forever but I always acknowledged it would come on entry—was higher prices for farmers. For decades we laboured under the British cheap food system and we are glad to be out of it.

Hear, hear.

Does Deputy O'Malley think the farmers should not get the prices? Is he against it?

I made it perfectly clear I was delighted they were getting the prices.

However, the Deputy does not want the price mechanism to operate.

The British farmers are getting the same prices or even more.

Of the nine countries, the British have a small agricultural sector and a big industrial sector, they have food subsidies that are transitory, which they have agreed they must phase out, which are extremely expensive and are not appropriately targetted. The Deputy believes in subsidies but I think they are a blunt instrument. I am in favour of the farmers getting the price—perhaps I am prejudiced. If I am in favour of that, I acknowledge the consequences and I do not look for evasions by diverting a great deal of money into subsidies which in a country like this, with our structure of population and industry, we do not have available.

With regard to fertilisers, the source is imported oil, imported urea, imported phosphate and we have some development indigenously based on imported raw materials. Does the Deputy suggest we should not buy fertilisers, that we should not use them? Of course he does not, but how does he suggest we get them? Is he suggesting that NET are making exorbitant profits?

Are they not making more profit than private companies?

In no context is the manufacturer of fertilisers, either public or private, making an exorbitant profit. The source of the fertiliser increase is what people in West Africa are charging for phosphate, what people are charging for oil and urea. There is the choice—either do not buy it or pay for it.

Is it not a fact that in the latest list of price increases the prices charged by NET are higher than those charged by other private companies?

For comparable items the price is comparable. However, the products are not always identical. As I understand the situation, I disagree with the Deputy. The point I have made about fertilisers applies to import prices in general. Do we not buy, in which case whole sectors of our industry do not function, or do we buy and pay? Apart from what I am calling the Ard-Fheis type of contribution, what is the way out of that situation? I did not hear anything. If we come to profits, we have at the middle of 1975, the end of the AIFTA, the approximation of the abolition of barriers to imports with the UK. By 1977 we have the abolition of barriers with the Community. If we are to get advantage rather than destruction from a free trade situation of 280 million to 300 million people we have to allow industry to get a bit of volume, to get some profit, to get re-equipment, design and development and to get efficient. Is the Deputy against profits for industry?

I would not accuse Deputy O'Malley, who is realistic but is, perhaps, new to what he is talking about, of being against profits for industry. In regard to the wage-cost guidelines that we have announced—we have guidelines for the National Prices Commission—it is fine uttering great broadsides of general opposition, but is the Deputy against the widened guidelines we have announced? These guidelines allow for settlements arrived at under the Labour Court conciliation officers. In my view they are properly a part of increased labour costs. I do not believe in bankrupting industries; I believe in letting them earn a little gravy, become more efficient and grow a bit.

In regard to liquidity problems, which Deputy O'Malley referred to, we have permitted some increases where specific submissions are made to the National Prices Commission and under no other heading, not for increased raw materials, not for increased labour costs but because liquidity was too tight. We are prepared to entertain the concept that a price application can be made to improve liquidity and, indeed, to give price increases to improve liquidity. Is Deputy O'Malley for or against that? He has to choose. If he does not want to choose he can fire off the sort of general material that his speech consisted of; but if he is serious he ought to choose, he ought to say whether he was for VAT on food or against it, whether he is for the changed and widened wage guidelines; price increases are allowable to improve a firm's liquidity because that is a way to improve liquidity. The Deputy owes it, as the spokesman of the largest party in the country, to make his position clear on it.

I told the Minister of four other ways to improve liquidity without increasing prices.

The Deputy can say whether he believes that is a good scheme or not and whether he is for it or not. Then we will know the position.

The Minister should get on with his speech and stop this kind of nonsense. I have quoted four ways to improve the position.

The Minister should be allowed to make his own speech.

The Deputy is sufficiently long in the House and sufficiently experienced to appreciate the areas of competence in different Departments. The Deputy is spokesman for his party in the field of Industry and Commerce although he may wish to be the spokesman for Finance also but if he wishes to debate financial implications, taxation and the banks, he must get his colleague, his party spokesman on Finance, to put down a motion to be answered by the Minister for Finance and not by me.

Is that the Minister's way out of it?

That is my way out of it.

If I was out of order the Chair would have stopped me.

I am not saying that the Deputy was out of order but if he puts down a motion to me to be dealt with by me he should talk about things that are within my competence and are appropriate for me to reply to.

The Deputy chose, in the rather widely formulated resolution, to talk about a particular section. There is another aspect that I should like to talk about. It is an area where there is acute concern at present and where the Opposition, by their irresponsibility, have been damaging the national interest and the work we have been trying to do. I am talking about the area of import controls. Deputy O'Malley referred to lots of things that did not arise in the terms of his resolution but he did not refer to that which in my view is relevant on the question of assistance to industry.

In so far as I am aware the first person to raise the matter of import controls was myself and I did so on the occasion of the Shoe Fair in Dún Laoghaire. From there we went to the European Commission to invoke the protection we believed we were entitled to under the terms of the Accession Treaty. It is perfectly thinkable in those circumstances, and for those who are willing to stop and think about it it is obvious, that the policy of the Commission, faced with the desire of many of the member states to resort to protection, would be to try to force action on to those member states and to avoid taking action at Commission level. The whole strategy of our approach, while we did all that was available to us, was not to trumpet that from the rooftops but to force the Commission to act.

We found an irresponsible Opposition, unaware of the difficulties and simply concerning themselves, as has been the case over the week-end and is the case today, not to be constructive.

The week-end has certainly got under the Minister's skin.

It has not got under my skin but the mood of the week-end has carried itself on in here and just as the contribution here was destructive and negative so was the attitude of the week-end destructive and negative. I am illustrating the way the destructive and negative aspects of Opposition came to the fore in an important area where, if Deputy O'Malley had been familiar with his brief or had been anxious to help, he might have seen fit to make reference. In relation to the Community we did, in regard to the use of our licensing arrangements, restrict the importation of products available here. In regard to our surveillance mechanism, in regard to the anti-dumping procedures available to us and in regard to things that the Opposition and Government are familiar with but that are not appropriate to discuss, we took all steps available to us but we did not trumpet them from the rooftops. We did not do so because we were anxious to have the Commission fulfil its responsibility and not pass the buck back to us.

An understanding, an intelligent, a helpful, a subtle, an able Opposition plays the game of our opponents by trumpeting from the rooftops that we are doing nothing and by making the situation easy for the Commission to say we should be doing this, that and the other. The Opposition played their game, damaged what we were trying to do and harmed our industry in the process. If they want examples of where their irresponsibility, their foolishness, and their desire to do damage and to gloat in a difficult situation can get one, that is the perfect example.

Britain and Italy put on their own controls and did not ask the Commission for permission to do so.

We must make excuses for the Deputy because he is new to his spokesmanship and he has to play himself in. However, he is saying foolish and irresponsible things that are damaging in just the way the particular instance I gave him was damaging to our national interest. We have seen the perfect example in this debate, and we had it in the last session about the textile and footwear industries and again in the debate on my Estimate, that there is a glee, and the cliché is "unholy" in this case, that because for reasons that are worldwide the economy here like every other economy in the market world is in difficulty. There is the classic dog in the manger attitude; if they cannot eat, they will not allow anybody else to eat it; if they cannot run this country, they want to wreck it. The Opposition have not had a single practical, helpful, constructive thing to say.

If you had better leadership you could take the leadership of this country away from us in a moment by displaying that leadership but all you can do is whine in as damaging a way as possible. This is the shallow, bankrupt contribution, a desire to hurt, to wreck; the dog in the manger —God help us. If that is what Opposition has brought you to, you are guaranteeing that you will be there for a long time.

By God, it works and there is the proof of it, from that bitter little upstart.

Deputy Brendan Crinion.

Now we see the true colours.

I am amazed at a Minister coming here and literally saying nothing for the past half-hour, a Minister who, when on this side of the House and when he went before the electorate, promised rigid price control. They fooled the people in the last general election that they would be able to introduce price control and bring down prices, particularly food prices. The Minister is on record here as saying that the then Government was doing nothing to control prices, and what he would do if he was in power. Now he is in power and we shall see what his record has been. Inflation was at 8 per cent in this country two years ago when Fianna Fáil left office.

Sixteen per cent in the last quarter——

Over the 12 months' period it was at 8 per cent.

It was not.

Now we have it running at 20 per cent. The Minister said nothing about what he did to control prices since he took office. To give one example, the price of cattle at that time was roughly £20 per ton, according to the National Prices Commission in January-February, 1973. The same cattle dropped to £12 by November, 1974, according to the commission. In the case of beef sold in butchers' shops or wholesale the drop was insignificant. In most cases the price was the same; in some cases it was 1p or at most 2p per lb. less. The Minister got into a flurry in November when the farmers were crying out that the bottom had dropped out of the cattle market and he ordered butchers to reduce the price of meat by 5p per lb. for any beef over 50p per lb.

What was the Minister doing in the period before that when cattle prices were dropping gradually over the whole year while the price of meat remained the same? The fact that they did not go to the Prices Commission for an increase in price was no reason for the Minister and the Department not to monitor prices, not to exert pressure, or make an order to reduce the price. Even 5p was too little to suggest as a reduction at that time. That was something at which they should have been taking a very hard look because they were the people who were saying that beef had become a luxury which the people were unable to buy. They did nothing to reduce the price when it was being considerably reduced to the producer.

Not only was the price not reduced but the butchers were able to qualify for the slaughter premium introduced in September, a further subsidy which should have brought down the price of beef lower and which, if passed on to the consumer, would have reduced the price much more.

The Government aimed at building 25,000 houses each year but while they have been in office the price of houses has gone up 31 per cent. There is a scarcity of money for people who want to buy houses and there has been large-scale unemployment in the private housing sector. Because of the Government's financial policy we have not been able to get people to invest in building societies to provide loans for those houses. The Government could have increased SDA loans, as we suggested, up to £6,000 and reduced the income limit to £3,000.

Inflation here is now running at 20 per cent but the Germans have been able to keep it at 8 per cent. When the Government took office, inflation in Germany was around 5 per cent and in their case it increased by 3 per cent. Some other countries were not as successful as Germany and inflation has increased considerably in them but in none of them has there been anything like the inflation we have had here in the past two years.

Why do you choose to ignore Britain?

I am making my own case; the Deputy can come after me.

That is a damaging inaccuracy.

It is not. It is the Government's mismanagement that is causing the extremely high rise in inflation.

Why ignore Britain? There it is forecast that it will be something over 20 per cent.

We have hit it before Britain-and Britain has a socialist Government which has been largely the cause of their increase. The Deputy has the same situation. It is amazing that he is sitting right beside his socialist friends.

I am happy to sit here.

That is what you are saying but——

(Interruptions.)

Deputies should address the Chair and should not speak across the floor of the House.

It is only a social problem.

The massive increase in prices in this country has brought us to the stage when the economy is nearly breaking down. This is the cause of the large-scale unemployment we have had in the past four or five months. It is due to the failure of the present Government effectively to control price increases. They are saying it is foreign based and they have no control over foreign prices.

The Central Bank reported that 50 per cent of this is our own doing. If we had effective control over those prices we could have kept our rate of inflation within manageable proportions, had more people in employment, our firms would be able to maintain exports and would not lose markets, as happened in the past few months. It shows how futile and disheartened the Prices Commission are when their chairman said, as far back as last November, that the day was fast coming when the Commission would have to give up some of their control over price increases. They also said they were not able to process all the applications they got because they were coming in at such a fast rate. If we had taken control over prices in 1973 and early 1974, we would not have this trouble.

The Commission are permitting price increases for at least 100 different items every month. At least half the number of firms which would in the normal course apply for increases have not done so because the Minister said they were too small. They also said it would affect employment if they had to apply for price increases because the Commission would not be able to process them quickly enough. That is a sad reflection on any Department. If the Revenue Commissioners are collecting money, they employ more staff and get on top of their problem.

When we compare the number of firms who have applied for price increases in March, 1973, with the number applying at the present time, we find the number is about 50 per cent fewer. I tried to question the Minister last autumn about this. He went all around the world to avoid giving an answer and made excuses why it was not possible to do this. He knew the answer only too well but did not want to let himself down because when in Opposition he was one person who advocated strict price control.

The other part of this motion deals with assistance for firms in difficulty. When we have inflation running at 20 per cent and over, as at present, it is very difficult for firms to keep afloat. The Minister for Finance had a wonderful opportunity in the budget to help those firms in some way. The increased value of stocks held by the firms should have been compared with the year before. The Minister need not have looked for tax on those increases although inflation was running at 20 per cent. His only concession was to leave the tax over for two years. Those firms really needed help. They had not made an increased profit. They had the same amount of stock on the 1st January and at the end of the financial year but, as I said, inflation had increased by 20 per cent. The Revenue Commissioners are taking at least 50 per cent of this increase in tax. In my view, this is completely wrong.

These firms should have been given a chance to reinvest in their businesses because, as the Minister said on numerous occasions, firms need to reinvest to keep competitive and provide employment. This Government are so hard up that they are trying every way they can to collect money into their coffers to keep afloat. When they took office over two years ago, this country was in a very healthy state.

As Deputy O'Malley mentioned, the price of fertilisers—the 10.10.20 used for tillage crops—has increased from £50 to £100 roughly. The Minister mentioned that these products were imported, as were oil, phosphates and other raw materials and all have increased in price. A mine in County Clare used to produce phosphates until it became uneconomic. We should explore the possibility of producing our own phosphates again, Under present prices, this would possibly be cheaper than the imported raw material from North Africa and elsewhere.

At present people are prospecting for oil in the Celtic Sea. They are terrified of present Government policy. They are drilling around nine holes, corking them and then leaving them because if they drilled the tenth hole they would have to develop the field. They are waiting to see if it is possible that this Government will leave office and then they will get a Government which will let them develop for the betterment of this country.

That is more deliberate wrecking. The Deputy is trying to do as much damage as he can.

Not at all. The Minister could have made an agreement with Tara two years ago. Instead he put 500 people in Navan out of work.

That is deliberate irresponsibility.

Debate adjourned.
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