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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Feb 1975

Vol. 278 No. 5

Financial Resolutions, 1975. - Financial Resolution No. 13: General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.—(The Taoiseach.)

In the few minutes available to me the last day I drew attention to the fact that, as a result of Fianna Fáil policy through the years, the people had accepted that they had a responsibility to make payments to the less well-off in our community. It was not until 1964 that the Fine Gael Party decided it was essential that they too should indicate to the public that they were interested in this activity. They then published the document A Just Society. I also mentioned that, as a result of Fianna Fáil policy, an industrial base was created from which it was possible to provide financial aid for those people.

I mentioned that the social welfare code had one glaring gap which, to my mind, must in justice be filled as soon as possible. I refer to the case of a wife becoming ill. She must go to bed or to hospital and as a result her husband must leave work to look after the family. As far as I am aware there is no regulation under the social welfare code which permits payment to him by virtue of the fact that he must stay off work to look after his family. Many wives are aware that if they stay in bed or go to hospital they will impose financial difficulties on their families which may take some time to get over. Therefore definite payment should be made to the husband for a period of at least six weeks while his wife may be ill at home or in hospital. I am aware of cases where women who should be in bed are still on their feet and unable to cope with the work facing them. As a result they develop chronic illnesses which in the long run impose greater expense on the State and on their families. I raised this with the Minister for Health and the Minister for Labour in the past but it did not get the attention it should.

The Minister in his speech also said that a husband now over 67 years of age may have means up to £12 a week and still get the full old age pension of £17.70. I have no objection to this, but on the other hand a married couple over 67 will get but £17.70 also. This is an indication of the difference in outlook between the two parties, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, to payments of social welfare. Fianna Fáil policy was always to make the necessary payments to people of greatest need. This is an objective that should face any Minister for Finance in framing his budget.

This budget contained no innovation to cover the extension of the health services. It seemed to indicate that for the foreseeable future no new development will take place. This is in contradiction to the announcement of the Minister for Health some time ago.

The Government's failure to continue the amenity scheme is one of the greatest indictments against them. This Coalition when they came to power indicated great interest in community development. But the one scheme which permitted community development was dropped by them. This is obviously a mistake and the Minister for Local Government must be aware by now from the pressures of the various county councils through resolutions that it is not acceptable to the public. There is an obligation on him to see that this situation is changed in the very near future. That Minister is also responsible for roads. He has refused to give full cognisance to the situation which exists at the present time where the development of bogs is absolutely necessary. We put down questions asking him to make money available for the development of roads and drainage of bogs. He refused to do this. He stated that the local improvements scheme should be used for this purpose. Small as this reply was, to me it was one of the biggest disappointments from the Coalition, because the Minister is the only member of the Cabinet with a rural background. He should be fully aware of the difficulties of getting local improvement schemes off the ground in rural areas. Those who are interested know that names must be got, a willingness on the part of those involved must be got by signature, and in most cases a contribution must be paid by those involved in these schemes. There are difficulties in getting all these together.

As anybody who knows anything about bogs will realise, to do this in practice is impossible, although in theory it is possible. The owners of bogs use them very little. For that reason they will not make a contribution for the benefit of the whole country. People using bogs do so on a yearly basis, taking them one year but maybe not the next. They too are not interested in making a contribution for this purpose. Therefore it must be obvious that a special fund should be set up for this purpose. It was there in the past. We have gone beyond the era of the ass and the side cleat. We are now in the era of the tractor. Therefore the roads will have to carry more weight than in the past. For this reason it is essential that the Government do something about these roads before it is too late.

It is not given to ordinary mortals to understand the intricacies of finance and economics. Nevertheless, in listening to the Minister and subsequently reading his speech, thoughts went through my mind. One thing that struck me was that he is introducing schemes to encourage people to save. On the other hand, he indicates how important it is to get money out of the public so that demand will be increased and consumer spending will be——

May I draw your attention, Sir, to the disgraceful attendance on the Government benches. There is a limited attendance here, but we are two to one at least. We should get some Deputies in to hear the debate.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

I was referring to the Minister's speech, the subsequent reading of it and the fact that there was a contradiction in it in that he induced people on the one hand to save money and on the other hand he was anxious to increase demand and consumer spending. I asked myself: "Who contributes more to the economy, the saver or the spender? Is it the law of diminishing returns that controls both?" I have not seen or read anything about it. I belong to a generation that was taught to save the pennies and the pounds would take care of themselves. We were reared on the basis that it was prudent to save and that it was wise to leave something by for the rainy day. There seems to be an emphasis now on consumer spending. This is helped by lavish advertising so that we seem to be entering a new era. I wonder if anybody has definite opinions on which attitude would benefit the economy more.

The Minister referred to long term borrowing and said it was not attractive to the foreigner. He made no reference at all to the native. What applies to the foreigner must apply to the native, the Irish citizen, who wishes to lend money to the State. I get the impression that the era of long term loans is finishing. I would like to hear the Minister develop this thought further. It seems to be unfair to invite citizens to accept long term loans and when the money is paid back, due to inflation in particular, its purchasing power has decreased substantially. Something should be built into those loans to provide against this contingency and make them more attractive.

I have often wondered if it is possible to link up the saving scheme with income tax to help the younger people from 19 to about 30 years of age who have paid their income tax. A time usually comes when they want to build their own houses and they have to seek grants and loans. Grants are reasonably easy to get except that those people with a certain income are precluded from getting the local government grant. Many of the people looking for loans find them very hard to get. There should be some tie up between the income tax younger people pay and making grants and loans available to them. I can see objections to this but the economists and the Revenue Commissioners should be able to produce something to deal with this problem.

The secretariat of the National Economic and Social Council in their document referred to the fact that few statistics are available for 1974. This is to be expected as statistics are very slow coming from various institutions. One must question how useful statistics are. I suppose they are absolutely essential as statements of fact but the problem arises when one tries to interpret them. We see how unreliable they have been for agricultural marketing. Two years ago we were told there would be plenty of outlets in the future for the beef of this country. However, during the last few months we have been faced with the very opposite. This is one area where statistics have let us down very badly.

We have had over the last 12 months different interpretations of the housing figures. I understand there was something about housing on television last night. The people who saw this programme were absolutely confused and found it hard to know who was right and who was wrong. If statistics are so unreliable that people with reasonable intelligence and a certain amount of training cannot draw the proper inference from them there is an obligation to see that this wrong is corrected. Our lives are being run on figures and we are all becoming numbers. The interpretation of statistics can be used to the disadvantage of groups and individuals. I am somewhat annoyed when told that the average number of medical cards in the country is one-third the number of patients and that the income is £5,000, when I know there are quite a number of doctors whose medical card patients total more than 50 per cent and up to two-thirds of the number of patients and that the basic income from those does not come anywhere near £5,000. The situation is such that it has to be supplemented by other payments. Indeed, there are areas where a minimum salary must be offered to doctors to take up the practice of medicine.

When one tries to get the records straight, even the newspapers fail in their duty to the public because they do not help to present the other side of the story and in that way are helping to compound this misrepresentation of figures. I am not an expert at figures but to my layman's mind it seems that if things are to be run thus, those people who are supposed to do so should make adequate and clear information available to us.

This morning's news on the radio stated that the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries is consulting with the farming community about getting back intervention payments for the producers. This has been hammered at in this House in the last number of months and we are pleased at its happening at last, but it has come a bit too late when prices are beginning to rise anyway. People around me would have been happier if this had happened some months ago because it would have meant their incomes would have been much better in the last six months.

Today also the radio announced that our cattle exports have fallen by 20,000, the indication being that this was caused because shipping facilities were not available. In the House I proposed by question to get information from the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries and Transport and Power in regard to shipping facilities for cattle but the Ceann Comhairle ruled the questions out of order on the basis that the Ministers had not responsibility. I understand that I am not entitled to question the Chair's right to do this but I wish to place the responsibility where it should be, in the hands of whichever committee are responsible for Standing Orders. They should see that questions like that get before the House. I do not know who is responsible but it is significant that those exporting cattle have indicated this is one reason why they could not get out young cattle. It is a reflection on our lack of ability to inquire by question on matters of this kind.

Another matter concerning the Department and the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries may seem small to anyone living outside rural Ireland. In the past, seeds were made available to people at reduced cost, certified seeds, each spring. This scheme was abolished last year and has not been reintroduced this year, an extraordinary decision at a time when the emphasis is on the production of as much stock feed as possible at home. Our experience in the last few months should endorse this and show that one factor that should have changed the Minister's outlook in regard to the seeds scheme is the need to home produce stock feed. Last week I put down a question in relation to EEC policy on the development of alternative animal feed which would not have to be imported from outside the EEC. I understand the EEC have published a lengthy document on this, yet here we are throwing aside one way of implementing this. It reflects very badly on the Minister and the Department.

One of our big difficulties has been the continuing need to import energy. It has an enormous effect on our balance of payments. Reading the publication National Partnership, I was struck by paragraph 60 on page 25:

Fortunately, notwithstanding the increase in the balance of payments deficit this year, our external reserves have in fact increased since December last. At the end of September they stood at £460 million, more than £30 million higher than at the end of December. This points to a strong capital inflow. More than half the inflow was accounted for by borrowing by the Government to finance the public capital programme, and by semi-State bodies for development programmes.

Unless you have an aunt who died in America you would not describe those circumstances as fortunate. You would say it was fortunate if she left you sufficient money to cover such a contingency but it is not my interpretation of how you would describe the necessity to borrow such amounts of money. To my mind it is unfortunate that the State is in such a situation that it cannot carry on without borrowing. Borrowing is acceptable as far as companies and individuals who want to develop are concerned, but the use of the word "fortunately" in this document places an emphasis on this activity which should not be placed on it.

This brings me to another point. In his statement the Minister said that any domestic activity that would increase or cause a rise in the balance of payments deficit should be avoided. This must be accepted, but it follows that any domestic activity that can be taken to help to reduce the balance of payments deficit should be taken. At risk of repeating myself, I point to the failure of Ministers concerned to develop our bogs, one way whereby we could reduce our import requirements of energy. It might not make a substantial contribution but it would be something.

Another area is the use of native coal. It is well known that in Ireland there are only two coal fields left, the larger being at Arigna. There are two types of coal, one of which is worked and used for electricity generation. There is as well what is known as crow coal, an inferior coal with high ash content. I understand there are acres upon acres of it. In the past this was regarded as uneconomic from the point of view of electricity production but county councils and individuals are now advocating that an effort be made to work and use this coal. Deputations have gone to the Minister. We have asked questions, and one of the questions elicited a reply from the Minister for Transport and Power to the effect that it was not economic to burn this high ash content coal in Arigna. This is putting the emphasis in the wrong place. The Minister for Finance wants to improve the balance of payments, our external assets, and our financial standing throughout the world. This, if I get the message from the Minister's statement, should be the important consideration just now. Therefore, the Minister for Transport and Power should point out to the ESB that this is what the Government want, the production of energy that will take pressure off the balance of payments. Not alone would this be of help to the country but also to the local rural area which is depending on this industry.

Talking about the Minister for Transport and Power reminds me that no provision has been made in the budget this year to alleviate the great hardship which faces so many people building new houses who find that the insulation costs them £300, £400 or even £900 in some cases. One had hoped that so much had been said about this in the House from time to time that the Government would have seen its way to deal with this problem in the budget.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce has announced that he has an agreement with Tara. He seems very pleased with it and satisfied that he has got ample profit for the country as a result of this deal. We can only hope he is right. However, Deputy O'Malley is not so enthusiastic about it, and it must be admitted that any statements Deputy O'Malley makes are usually informed and very well researched. Nevertheless, everybody hopes the Minister's agreement will bring the results the people want. Some people outside the House have a different opinion and regard it as most unlikely that the Fianna Fáil Party would go out of its way to prevent the Irish people getting as much as possible from these natural resources in and surrounding the country, and I think it only right to say that their influence will be available in this matter.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce has a responsibility for prices, and he has not done so well. I am not going to blame him a great deal for that, but I do blame the Government for announcing before the election that they were going to reduce prices and stabilise them. This more than anything else persuaded sufficient of the floating vote to support a coalition Government and bring them to power, and that is one field in which they failed to redeem their promise. The position of the unfortunate Minister for Industry and Commerce was made a lot worse by an increase of 30 per cent in the price of petrol imposed a few months ago by the Minister for Finance. He certainly did not help the Minister for Industry and Commerce. This is an obvious case of broken faith with the public. We were told that 50 per cent of the inflationary pressure came from outside and 50 per cent from inside, and then at the end of the reel the Minister for Finance put 30 per cent extra on petrol. Surely the Government cannot shrug off their responsibility for the increase in the cost of living resulting from this increase in the cost of petrol which pervades all our economic activities.

Unemployment is another difficult section for the Minister for Industry and Commerce. Efforts are made to get a Buy Irish campaign off the ground. One of the saddest reflections on the Irish community, if my reading of the papers is correct, is that the Minister for Industry and Commerce had to go to Europe to consult with some of the EEC people about this Buy Irish campaign. This should not be necessary. The Irish people should be patriotic enough and have sufficient interest in the development of their own country and in helping their fellow workers to buy Irish goods with little or no prompting from the State.

I agree with the Deputy's sentiments, but I would not like him to misunderstand the position. The Minister for Industry and Commerce is not going to Brussels in connection with the Buy Irish campaign, because that is a completely voluntary matter as far as the Irish people are concerned, but he did consult with Brussels on the possibility of restrictions on imports from outside, which is a different thing.

That is fair enough, but I am making the point that it should not be necessary for him to do this. The idea has been implanted in our minds for so long, from the founding of Sinn Féin, that it should have permeated all our teaching and our whole approach to these problems. Until we adopt the right attitude we shall have tremendous difficulty in industry, because no matter what you make, it is immaterial whether it is cheap or dear on the shelf; it has no price until you sell it. We have very little control over outside markets. The Minister said that Germany and the United States were loosening up their finances with the intention of increasing their trade. This should help us, but we are unable to influence the situation very much, and for this reason we depend greatly on our home market. I am not one of those people who advocate buying Irish goods because they are labelled Irish. There is an obligation on workers and on management to see that the goods they produce are of the highest quality possible and at the cheapest possible price. It would be most unfair to deceive the spending public in both of those matters.

Here is an area which has never been fully developed. This is something the Minister for Labour, who does not seem to be as busy as some of the other Ministers, should do. He is responsible for the labour force. His colleagues, the other Ministers, are the agencies providing work. He should be hounding those Ministers to provide work for his labour force. For example, he should be pursuing the Minister for Local Government and saying: "There is local development to be done down the country in relation to bogs, drains, roads and so on. We want money. There are people unemployed down there." He should be pursuing the Minister for Transport and Power on the same basis. Before the budget some of the economic advisers to the Minister were making a point that one area where jobs could be saved and increased was at this level of local employment, that this had the advantage of little or no import content and that this work could be carried out in areas where unemployment had been rife. There is an obligation on the Minister to do this.

Another aspect of our economic problem due to oil is the fact that the Third World countries have indicated that they, too, may increase the price of their materials. Taking into consideration the difficulty that we are experiencing because of the increases in oil costs I wonder what would be our economic situation if this were to happen. I have much sympathy in regard to the Third World countries but when somebody complained to me recently about the oil cost increases I remarked that we would be unlikely to sell our farm produce at cheaper prices in order to help the Arabs or any other Third World countries.

Viewing this budget and also the policy of the Government during the past 12 months I can say that so far as my constituency is concerned we have not been doing well. Agriculture is in chaos as a result of the price situation and also because of the failure of the Government to ensure intervention prices for the producers although this is something that is being dealt with now. The health services seem to be at a standstill. The same can be said in respect of housing. We cannot understand the figures but we note the inaction and wonder where lies the truth.

Sometimes I think of the 14-point plan that was offered to the people before the last election and compare it with the Stations of the Cross. The people are suffering and all they can do is pray and think of what might have been if the Government had fulfilled their promises.

I shall relate my remarks in particular to my own constituency and to the west in general. In order to make my points I may find it necessary to reiterate some of what was said by the previous speaker.

The situation in the west is desperate. The people in that part of the country are the ones who are being hit hardest by the crisis that has befallen us, particularly the crisis in the cattle industry. The people are being obliged to sell their cattle at give-away prices and those who did not find it possible to sell have had an abnormal number of deaths among their herds. On Sunday last I spoke to a smallholder in a mountain area. He told me that during the previous week five of his animals had died. From now on there will be an increase in the number of casualties. The situation up to now could have been much worse had it not been for the very good weather we have been experiencing.

Down through the years the people of the west have been promised help of a major kind. They were told that their areas would be developed, that every effort would be made to bring about economic development by way of employment and so on. However, they have become tired of promises. From time to time various suggestions were put forward by the experts in Dublin and in other places but nothing positive has been done to bring to those people the type of help which they need so badly and for which they have waited so long. I am not directing my remarks specifically at the present Government because this situation has developed down through the years. Some time ago there was devised a scheme for the industrialisation of the west but after a number of years the subsidies that were being given to encourage industrialists to set up in the west were diverted to the eastern side of the country.

There must be no further delay in making available the expertise that will result in the development of our western seaboard. I have been pressing consistently for the development of our fisheries on a major scale. This is one way of providing much needed help but we seem to be knocking at closed doors and it looks as if there is nobody with the type of forward thinking and expertise that is necessary to develop the vast wealth of our western seaboard.

In an effort to expand on the points made by the previous speaker I will give figures of what could be done this year alone by way of turf production. If a sum of £500,000 had been provided in the budget, as it should have been, for the development of bog roads and for drainage so as to bring the bogs back to the state of efficiency of the 'forties and 'fifties, it would have been possible to produce an extra two million tons of turf. This would have a saleable value of £16 million of which about £10 million would go directly in wages and would provide seasonal employment for about 20,000 workers.

The Government find it necessary to borrow money from outside sources in order to pay for our imports of oil and coal but they are not paying attention to the potential of our bogs. Because of the availability of turfproducing machines, turf production is a relatively simple operation today. There are vast areas of bog available. I have seen the machines operate successfully in Cahirciveen. The areas of the west coast are adaptable to these machines. They can produce machine turf which is a very saleable product. I cannot understand why this idea has not been developed. We are supposed to have experts in Bord na Móna but they are probably so tied up with their own business that they cannot see anything outside of it.

It should be possible for the Government to set up some organisation to produce this material which is so abundant in the west. Having regard to the high price of imported fuel, turf could be produced economically and it would be acceptable to our people. About 12 months ago I was in Ballina. I had to go around many of the back streets to find out where somebody lived. To my amazement, in all the big shops, and even in Woolworth's, I saw huge reeks of turf in the back part of their premises. Once we have firms in towns like that prepared to sell native fuel, the bulk of the people will use it. The coal we are getting is not good and oil is extremely costly.

I have had oil heating in my own house for a number of years. I checked during the week and I found that two years ago the cost of oil was about £1.50 a week, with liberal usage and no attempt to contain its use. The cost this year with restricted usage is over £8 a week. If turf were available, I and many others like me would utilise that natural asset. I would ask the Minister to provide money to be injected into the development of bog roads.

When the local authorities are supplied with funds for local improvement schemes, some councillors are not interested in bog development or turf production and they look for the money for work on the roads in their own areas. Sums of money will have to be set aside and specifically directed towards turf production when funds are being transmitted to the local authority. If there is still time, I would ask the Minister to provide money for this purpose.

This will be of benefit to the nation by way of a saving on imports of fuel. Above all it will provide employment in the area where it is most needed. There could be a saving on the social welfare side because people who are now drawing the dole could be employed. The money provided for local improvement schemes goes almost entirely to machine development and the haulage of materials which have a very low employment ratio. In bog development there are jobs which have to be done by hand, and there is a high rate of employment. The employment which could be generated by the production of turf would be well worth the expenditure of any money provided for that purpose.

At the risk of repeating myself, I again appeal to the Minister to have some money diverted towards bog road and drain development. I know one man in Cahirciveen who employs 60 middle-aged men who do not fit into the ordinary type of industry. They are smallholders who are employed for as long as six months. Great credit is due to that man. That is a very useful type of exercise. It helps the nation's economy and it helps the local small-holders.

The most important long-term development project to save the west is the development of our fishing industry. I have often been told that our fishing industry is developing at a certain percentage. Admittedly, it has developed by 300 per cent, but that means nothing because it was a development from nothing to a minimal effort. About 20 years ago, a place in the mountains near my own town was highlighted as one of the fastest developing areas in the country because the population had increased by 24 per cent and the highest rate of increase in any part of the country at that time was 3 per cent. When I checked, I found that there were only 13 people in the area before that. A man came home from England with his family. This shows what you can do with figures. This increase of 24 per cent represented only four people.

I have asked consistently for the injection of money into Valentia Harbour. If we had that injection we could show the rest of Ireland what could be done by way of development of our fishing assets. Time and again I was told that the facilities there were sufficient for the effort being put into fishing there. How can one operate a harbour properly if one does not have a suitable pier? The modern fishing boat, capable of going out 200 miles, or more, to sea cannot use the piers along our west coast. There is need for vision here if we are to develop this very important national resource around our coasts.

An injection of about £2 million over a number of years is essential at Valentia. This is one of the finest harbours in Europe but the piers are totally inadequate. A European who has been in touch with me is prepared to invest £1 million in fish processing if he can get the proper landing facilities. He is interested in an export production of £20 million and he sees no problem in selling the processed commodity provided the piers are made capable of catering for 200 foot boats, boats which can go out 200 miles to sea. If he had these facilities, a really worthwhile industry could be developed.

I have some statistics here from both Denmark and Norway to illustrate the possibilities. Norway has a population of approximately 3,900,000. It is something like our own. Total fish production last year amounted to £328 million, of which £244 million represented exports. Employment is provided on the boats for 35,027 people and a further 20,000 are employed on shore, making a grand total of 55,000 people engaged in Norway in the fishing industry. The season in Norway lasts a little over four months in the year. By and large, we have an all-the-year-round fishing season. Our exports last year amounted to £15 million, of which more than half was in salmon, shellfish and so on. Our approach to the vast wealth around our shores is puerile. Recently we got quite excited over oil which will cost a great deal to develop. We have vast wealth in the waters around us. It is so vast that, if one had the proper kind of rake, one could almost rake in this wealth. We should have an export figure of £500 million in ten or 15 years' time if our harbours are properly developed.

Norwegian fish sales are made to countries with which we have a heavy imbalance of payments. They are made to France, Sweden, Denmark, Italy, Spain, South Africa, Columbia and The Netherlands. These are all countries from which we buy more than they buy from us. We could control these markets. Is it too much to hope for a body to be set up with the specific task of developing this industry? Is there anyone with enough vision to reap the vast harvest around our shores for the benefit of the west and the benefit of the nation as a whole? I do not think we are short of brains and energy and surely, even at Government level at the moment, there is someone with enough vision and ability to insist on the development of this industry. A separate body on the lines of the Industrial Development Authority to deal with the fishing industry would be the ideal solution.

A huge amount of money will not be required. I mentioned this European firm which is interested in investing £1 million in processing. The firm is prepared to supply the boats and the skippers; all they ask for are the crews. Outside funds are available. All we need is the expertise to develop the harbours and garner the harvest. The harbours were constructed 200 or more years ago. They were quite appropriate in their day but they are no longer suitable to modern needs. Recently at Valentia some genius came along and built a wall down the middle of the pier there. I do not know what purpose it is supposed to serve. The pier should be widened actually to take two or three vehicles abreast when the boats are unloading. If the building of this wall is an indication of the kind of approach there is to the industry, I do not see much hope for the development of the industry.

The Deputy will, I am sure, agree that this kind of detail would be more appropriate on the Estimate.

I said at the outset that I wanted to deal in particular with the west and I am trying to pinpoint the resources that exist off the west coast. We do not have many opportunities here of discussing these matters except on the actual budget and the appropriate Estimate. I have pinpointed the need to get this type of development. If I am overstepping, I am sorry. I would ask you to bear with me. I am referring mainly to agricultural production. I am also trying to get in a reference to fisheries.

The only difficulty is that it is the Financial Resolutions with which we are dealing at the moment and details are appropriate to Estimates.

I agree. I am trying to get the message across to the Minister for Finance. I am sorry to have had to cover so wide a field but I have been persistently trying to get this message across. The west is costing a lot of money by way of dole and other injections. On the radio this morning an expert stated that it was his opinion that it was unfortunate that such subventions are available because they represent an injection in a dying situation which merely serves to prolong life. He referred to the fact that there are 90,000 small farmers who have no means of survival. I refer to this to show that these people are there. They are an energetic people, despite what people may think because of the fact that they are drawing the dole. The younger men are not interested in drawing the dole and are not prepared to exist on the dole. Those in the older bracket from 30 upwards may still cling to the old way of life. In the case of the younger men, if there is no work available locally they are prepared to clear out. That is what we are trying to prevent. We are trying to keep the people in the west. If we were to lose the western culture we would have lost everything that our people have fought for. They fought so that everybody would have the right to live in his homeland. It is my job in this House to direct ministerial attention at all times to the problems that exist in the backward regions of the country.

The people in these undeveloped areas were able to survive in former days because of remittances from the young people who had gone to America or to Britain. There is no large-scale emigration to America any more and there is not much hope of their finding employment in Britain, the way things are going there. Therefore it is vitally important to provide means of keeping these young people at home, by developing local resources.

The expert advice given to farmers has been shown up in recent months in all its nakedness. The advice has been changed so often that the farmer did not know where he stood. There was the advice to farmers to carry one cow to the acre. There is a very energetic farming family that I know who had 100 cows on about 180 acres of land. They went exclusively into milk production and had a colossal milk cheque. They found that as a result of the cost of feedingstuffs and fertilisation and the effect of that fertilisation on the land and on the cattle they were in a worse position and they are now reverting to the system of having about 50 cows and using the farmyard compost to fertilise the land. They find that this is more economic. When they adopted the system they were advised to adopt they discovered that there was softening of the soil through over-ferilisation and that the land was cut up by the cattle over the winter periods. This more than offset the increase in the milk cheque. The people have discovered that the system they were advised to adopt is not suitable. They find a balanced system of farming more economic. In this way they can face any crisis that may arise. The farmers in Kerry are now determined to develop their farms according to their own ideas. They will not be caught again with the number of cattle they had this winter and which they could not sell in the early stages. There is an improvement now but in the case of many farmers even by next May they will be getting only half the value that they would normally have got. The cattle will have suffered because of lack of feed over the winter and the farmers will not be able to get the type of money for them that they would have got in other years.

It has been a crisis year for farmers in our part of the country, mainly dairy farmers. Milk is a good price. They have lost on cattle. The small mountain farmers have lost heavily. It is unfortunate that they should have walked into this situation. It would appear that the future is not bright for them. One gathers from the rumblings from Europe that most countries are looking to the cheap meat that is available outside. It looks as if the EEC barriers can be breached. A report came from Australia recently that cattle had been slaughtered or had been allowed to die because there was not a market for them. This situation is very tempting to countries who want to get food at low cost. If there is any way of breaching the regulations they will be likely to do it.

One of the most important schemes in the west is the development of roads but the kind of development being carried on at the moment is not the correct one. Colossal sums are being spent on primary roads but in areas such as Cahirciveen and Dingle sufficient money is not being spent on road projects. These are tourist areas and it is necessary to have well-maintained roads. In the centre of Kerry considerable sums are being expended on road works and provision is also made for the construction of walls. I realise it is necessary to carry out work on the main roads but instead of constructing elaborate walls stakes might be erected and the money thus saved could be diverted to other roads. I hope some of the Department's inspectors will come down to County Kerry because when we raised questions about this matter in the council we were told the Department dictate how the money should be used. Vast sums are used to complete a few hundred yards of road but much more work could be done for the same money on some of the more minor roads. Many of these roads are in tourist areas and we should not forget that aspect.

The building trade has been going through a difficult period but their position will deteriorate even further when a further 25 per cent increase is put on timber. My firm of building suppliers have been notified of this increase. The grants provided are not in line with present-day costs. At the moment a person earning £2,300 is excluded from getting a loan. In country areas people find it difficult to get loans from building societies. They appear to keep their money in the Dublin area and do not give loans to people in my area. If we are to keep people in employment this situation must be corrected.

It is necessary to change the cottage purchase scheme. During the last week a young man I know was appointed tenant of a new house at a rent of £4.23 per week and he was told he could purchase the house if he paid £11.50 per week over 35 years. I calculated he would have a total of £16,500 paid by that time and after ten years he would have a further payment of £4 per week for rates——

That is the Molloy scheme.

I do not know what scheme it is and I am not entering into any argument about it. I am merely pointing out the position as it exists for a young man who earns £36 per week.

In Kerry we gave £26,000 this year for the provision of fuel for needy people. However, a peculiar situation has developed because old age pensioners with a contributory pension who have very little more than the noncontributory pensioners are excluded, according to the regulations. We will need approximately £80,000 per year to meet all the applications. I would ask the Minister to consider seriously giving us some assistance because we are one of the few counties that made an effort to help the needy in this matter.

I would ask the Minister to give all the money that is available to areas in the west. We need vast injections of capital. We have the energy and the expertise but we need help from Dublin to develop schemes that will give work to our people. This would give many people on the dole productive employment. I have ideas of what could be done and would be happy at any time to have a chat with the Minister about them.

Down the years we had many slogans about saving the west but nothing was done. If we develop the west it will benefit the whole country. The Minister should try to convince the Government to set up a body along the lines of the IDA to develop the vast fishing wealth in the west. If this were done the problems of the west would solve themselves. We can do what was done in Denmark, Norway and other countries. All we need is the right kind of thinking.

I will be very brief. At the moment there is a by-election going on in the west of Ireland. I have been knocking on doors and the people have asked me to give the Minister for Finance a message. They want me to congratulate him on this budget. I have done that and now I say that he should keep on with the good work.

In the long history of Dáil Éireann we have never seen an Opposition give such a display of sound and wind signifying nothing as we have experienced in the five weeks of this budget debate.

Is the Minister including me in that?

Their contempt for our democratic procedures, their total indifference to the problems facing our people are now physically demonstrated by two very significant developments. For the last 57 minutes, contrary to all the traditions and courtesies of this House, the Opposition Front Bench has been empty. I drew attention this morning to the fact that the Leader of the Opposition, Deputy J. Lynch, left the Front Bench empty for a time and when he returned he had the temerity to demand a quorum. Another Fianna Fáil speaker, embarrassed by the absence of the Leader of the Opposition from the Front Bench although he was speaking at the time, became the first ambulant speaker as he moved from a back seat to the front. Deputy O'Connor was left in the embarrassing position of addressing the House from the back benches with no representative of the Opposition in the Front Bench.

Today the Order of Business was arranged to facilitate the Opposition, who desired an 11-hour debate on the budget. Here we are at this early hour of the day with no other Opposition speaker offering himself. This clearly indicates how shallow is their opposition to this year's budget and how mean their criticism of the Government. In their heart of hearts they know that the economic difficulties through which we are going at the present time are not due to any lack of action on the Government's part, or attributable to any wrong decisions or erroneous actions on the part of the Government but are due primarily to the economic recession which is afflicting all countries of the world other than the oil producers/exporters.

The Opposition criticised the Government for failing to expend money on many items, for increasing taxation, which in this year increases by no more than a net of £11.4 million, and for the size of the budget deficit. I want to show how contradictory the Opposition are in their approach to the budget and how divided and confused they are in economic policy. This is necessary so that people will understand how Fianna Fáil are failing in their duty as an Opposition. In the midst of this patent display of total inability and insincerity, Fianna Fáil are saying through their Leader that their aim is to return to their position as the rightful Government of this country. There is arrogance. Without any cohesion, without any agreement among themselves as to what the right policy should be, they demand that they should be placed by the Irish people as the rightful Government of the country. So arrogant is the claim that one feels they do not even think the people have any part to play in this matter. They seem to think that they have a God-given right to rule this country.

It may be their arrogant dream that they are the rightful Government, but I suggest they do a rethink and become instead a dutiful Opposition and not a careless and indifferent Opposition, which they seemed to be throughout this budget debate, particularly today when they are absent in such vast numbers. They have broken the traditions of obligation and courtesy in this House by not maintaining the Front Bench. This is, of course, a reflection of what we saw yesterday where the proceedings were frustrated for hours by a nonsensical series of futile questions which had been answered hours and days beforehand. This was done for the sake of holding up the business of the House because Fianna Fáil, while pretending to oppose the Government's capital gains tax proposals were not in a position to produce a sufficient number of Deputies in the lobbies to carry any conviction. They knew that if there was a division yesterday they would have been totally disgraced because their Deputies were not here. For the second day running they show they are not really serious about parliamentary democracy because they made no effort to attend here.

As far as possible to do so, I want to quantify honesly, sincerely and, in fairness, conservatively, the demands for additional expenditure which were made by the Opposition during this debate. Deputy J. Lynch proposed food subsidies to reduce the consumer price index by 5 percentage points. This would add £100 million to the tax bill which would have to be taken from taxpayers or borrowed.

I hope the Minister will excuse me, but I have to leave the House. I know there are empty benches here but there are also empty benches behind the Minister.

I completely excuse the Deputy. He is one of the courteous and most sincere Members of the Opposition. I do not know how he can rest in the party of which he is a member. We now find ourselves without any Opposition at all. We have surely reached the bottom of parliamentary democracy when that situation exists. As I said earlier, it shows the gross insincerity of the Opposition regarding the budgetary problems of this country. Thanks to the loyal attendance of the gentlemen of the Fourth Estate, they will record this debate and reveal it to the country.

Even if the Deputies opposite do not take the trouble of reading the Official Report next week when it is printed, they will nonetheless see what I am now going to give: a summary of the additional taxation or additional borrowing that would have to be made to meet Fianna Fáil's dreams. Deputy Lynch, as I said, suggested a reduction of 5 per centage points in the consumer price index through food subsidies which would cost £100 million. He and Deputy Colley said that the income tax allowances, given on this year's budget, which will cost £15 million to £16 million, were not sufficient. He said they should be increased. This would cost £9½ million. Deputy Colley suggested that industry should get, not the mere £12 million tax relief which we gave them, but rather £25 million tax relief. That was not good enough for Deputy Lynch. He brushed aside Deputy Colley and said Deputy Colley's demand was not sufficient, that what was needed was at least £50 million. This was not a very sensible suggestion. Considering that industry does not contribute £50 million in income taxation it would be difficult to see how you could give a £50 million tax relief to those who were not paying £50 million in the first instance.

Even if Deputy Lynch's extraordinary dream could be achieved, particularly in a year when company profits are down, it would cost another £38 million which would have to be added to taxation or budget deficit. We should also have provided, according to Deputy Meaney, Deputy O'Connor and others another £1 million for the repair of bog roads. Suggested further improvements in pensions would add £2½ million. Providing retraining of married women, demanded by Deputy Lemass, would cost £500,000. To provide the additional money sought by Fianna Fáil for local improvement schemes would have cost £4 million. Social welfare increases demanded by Deputy Power would require an additional £17 million. To increase the horticultural oil subsidy would cost an additional £750,000. To have raised the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act loan and income limits to the points demanded by Deputy R. Burke and others would have cost an additional £25 million.

An increase of 50 per cent in new house supplementary and other grants demanded by a number of Opposition spokesmen would cost £6 million. To eliminate the tax element in tourist petrol, which is now being demanded by some sections, would cost £3 million. To give additional moneys to amenity grants would cost £500,000. A variety of other Santa Claus expenditures, extending from subsidising the wiring of new private houses to giving more money to the Land Commission and additional money for Muintir na Tíre and so forth, would have cost an addition of £20 million. At the end of this beautiful Santa Claus distribution Fianna Fáil would have added to the tax bill this year an addition of £228 million——

Nonsense.

——or they would have added that sum to the deficit of £125 million, which they say is already too great. Fianna Fáil's cure would be either unmerciful increases in taxation of £228 million, so that they could don Santa Claus's habit and distribute the little gifts, or they would have had us begging for money around the world to the tune of £353 million. They cannot have it both ways. If they had consulted with one another before the commencement of the budget debate they might have been able to agree some figures and eliminate some conflicts. The conflicts that existed between the Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party and Deputy Colley on items like the relief of taxation on industry might not have appeared. Quite clearly they did not consult with one another or, if they did, they could not agree.

Would the Minister quote?

They decided instead to come in here, do their own thing and hope to get a little advantage here and there without anybody going to the trouble of adding up their extravagance and irresponsibility. I have added it up today. If Deputy Colley was here earlier he would have heard me quoting his suggestions and the suggestions of Deputy Lynch on the taxation relief for industry. Deputy Colley's recommendation is contained in Volume 277 of the Official Report, column 269, and the recommendation of Deputy Lynch, which is in conflict with that of Deputy Colley—Deputy Colley asked for £25 million and Deputy Lynch asked for £50 million—is contained in Volume 277, column 385. If anybody wants any other chapter and verse I shall be only too happy to give it.

I think the Minister will find that is not correct if he is really quoting from what I said.

It is perfectly correct. In am not going to engage in an exercise, which I declined to engage in yesterday, which would involve repetition of statements which I previously made. There is no point in assuming that we can overcome all our problems by foreign borrowing. Foreign borrowing, no matter for what purpose it is made, even if it is made in order to carry us over the temporary difficulties of the oil crisis, is nonetheless incurring a debt at a high price, because interest rates are currently high and for a short term, because at present money is only being lent on short term. Therefore we have to be prudent about the size of the foreign borrowing which we make. From all sectors, not merely from the Opposition benches here, has been incessant demands for more and more money from the Government. The simple truth must be faced that at the moment, when we are operating in a deficit budget situation, we are not as a community paying our way. We are instead borrowing abroad in order to cover current expenditure.

That happens to coincide not only with our own correct assessment of the short term needs of the situation but also with every worthwhile opinion of every reputable economist at home and abroad. It coincides, too, with the recommendations of all the international organisations with which we are associated, including the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, the European Economic Community, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development and so forth, the recommendation that we should endeavour to borrow without regard to the burden of repayment.

In extending our foreign borrowing this year, as we propose to do, to £225 million we are satisfied that this is as much as we can prudently stretch our foreign borrowing demands at this time To stretch our foreign borrowing requirements any further would be imprudent at present because we would then have a debt obligation which could be beyond our capacity to pay. We must keep our capacity to repay in mind at all times. Loan repayments will influence our standards and quality of life later since we will have to set aside a proportion of our resources to repay the debt and interest. Our credit standing is also something which will determine the willingness of other countries to lend money to us. To maintain our credit standing we must live within our resources. The Government may not succumb to all the pleas that are made for additional revenue. We must limit our expenditures to what we can prudently expect to get on the domestic and international money market.

It is well also to remember the cost of servicing the national debt. It makes a serious inroad on current spending. It limits the ability of the Government to hand out in any year all the money that comes in because a significant proportion must be retained in order to repay capital sums and interest. The cost of servicing the national debt in 1975 is estimated to be £224 million and that, by any standard, is a very considerable sum. Quite clearly we must be careful not to add imprudently to the very heavy cost of servicing the national debt. Taken with the borrowings which were made in 1974, this year's borrowings will give a total in excess of the total amount borrowed since the foundation of the State.

This is not any sign of improvidence or recklessness. It is a consequence of the unusual economic circumstances in which this country and many others find themselves at present. Of course borrowings of this nature would not be feasible at all if the oil-producing countries were not building up massive surpluses of up to £35 billion a year, surpluses which they themselves are unable to consume within their own economies. On that account they are in some position to lend money. To our great disappointment, the recycling of surplus petrol dollars has not yet developed with the efficiency and speed one would have wished, but there are signs in the early months of 1975 that there will be an improvement and that the International Monetary Fund will have double the amount it had last year for recycling purposes. There will also be the OECD recycling facilities for member countries and the private banking system is adapting itself to the changes necessary to recycle surplus money from OPEC. These countries themselves are engaged in direct lending, particularly to the developing countries. They gave to Ireland for the first time last year a £27½ million loan. This was a unique development, directly related to the oil situation and one which gives us courage these days that we will be able to get sufficient resources by borrowing them.

The fact that money is available to us does not mean we must be reckless and take more money than we can properly use and properly repay in a comparatively short period. There are, quite clearly, many uncertainties in the present economic situation both at home and abroad and it is difficult to predict what the trends will be in 1975. On Monday of this week I was present at a meeting of the Finance Ministers of the EEC where we had a review of the economic situation affecting the Community and the world in 1975. It would be wrong to say the meeting was pessimistic and it would be equally wrong to say it was an optimistic meeting. The general assessment was that no country in the western oil-consuming world would have a growth rate exceeding 2 per cent, and it was anticipated that a number of countries might not have any growth or have a negative growth rate.

This is not a very encouraging prospect and the most that can be hoped for is that the slide towards recession will be slowed down in the coming months and that the end of the year might see the commencement of an upturn in the economies of our trading partners and ourselves. Therefore, though at present we can say there is a flicker of light at the end of a dark economic tunnel, we cannot be certain even at this stage that the light could not be quenched by some undesirable economic movement over the year. However if the wisdom that now seems to be descending on the economic and financial world is maintained, we can hope for an improvement towards the end of 1975 and throughout 1976.

Assuming that the reflationary measures taken in a number of key industrial countries are effective—in Germany, the Netherlands and the US— and that as a result the world economy arrests the slide towards depression, the external environment should become more favourable as the year progresses. However our prosperity, our capacity to improve our situation, will depend as much if not more on our domestic behaviour as on external factors. Domestically, a vital factor will be the trend of incomes.

If income increases are in line with the Government's recommendations in the White Paper—increases no more than necessary to compensate for the cost of living—the growth rate should increase by about 2 per cent. But if there is any departure from these essential guidelines on income, then we will put our growth rate in jeopardy and we will certainly increase the danger of further unemployment.

This is not an Irish jaundice virus. This is the view that was recited by each member of the Council of Ministers in respect of his own national economy at the recent economic and finance meeting of the nine EEC Ministers. All countries intend to stick by this formula. If several other countries have consumer price increases less than ours, because they are not as vulnerable as we are to international trends, and if those countries link their income increases to more than their domestic consumer price index, it means that their rates of income increases will be considerably less than ours. This in turn means that if we are prudent enough to limit our increases to no more than consumer price increases, we will still be put at risk from a competitive point of view in external markets.

There are already signs that in some markets the economic situation is forcing down prices. We therefore face a double challenge, that as our own costs may tend to rise, we may find it difficult to sell in markets where domestic costs are declining, which means we could widen the cost gap and increase the amount of competitiveness facing us.

An examination of likely trends of expenditure and gross national product shows that the greatest stimulus to our economy will come from exports and consumption. Looking back on 1974 now, we know that the volume of consumer expenditure probably fell by 1 per cent. In 1975 this trend should be reversed and moderate volume increases could be recorded. This is partly due to the high level of salary, wage and income increases anticipated. These increases will come even if there is no new increase in income levels this year, because the carry-over effect of the 1974 National Pay Agreement will mean an increase of 25 per cent in non-agricultural incomes this year without any further arrangements being entered into. That with much improved agricultural incomes is a very significant stimulus to the economy.

On the external front merchandise exports should also continue to rise, but it would be unlikely that they would rise at the same fast rate as they did in 1974 particularly as in the early part of 1974. But industrial exports should pick up significantly in the latter half of the year because of reflationary action being taken in a number of other big industrial countries. Agricultural exports should see a very remarkable and most welcome improvement throughout 1975. It is not unreasonable to expect also that tourist receipts and numbers should have an upswing in 1975. A large proportion of our tourist increase in recent years has come from continental traffic, and the indications are that this great and very welcome growth of tourists from continental countries will show a significant increase in 1975, and what we hope will last, the more peaceful situation in the North of Ireland, could have a really dramatic impact on growth in our tourist traffic. Other earnings abroad are also expected to increase at approximately the same rate as in the last two years.

Therefore my advice today to industry in general is to prepare now for the inevitable growth which is going to take place in world economics in the latter half of 1975, in 1976 and onwards. We have come to a point where the factors which were bringing the world into the depression have been recognised and corrective action is being taken. Some of these depressionary forces have been so strong that, although corrective action has now been taken and the brakes applied, the momentum towards depression is likely to carry some of the world economies a little further down before they reach bottom and start on the upswing. At last the mistakes of 1974 have been recognised in those countries which were primarily responsible for generating global depression. As corrective action is now being taken, 1975 should be a year in which we will see steps to end our present difficulties and a significant improvement as a result.

I cannot overemphasise that it will take some little time before the significant improvement reaches us here. Usually it takes Ireland from four to six months to respond to significant economic swings, up or down in other parts of the world. When depression is descending on the world elsewhere, it is of benefit to us to be behind others, but unfortunately when the upswing comes it may take us a little longer to absorb the benefit of that upswing. However, we have both the opportunity and the capacity now to move in the right direction. The best profits are made by people who refuse to follow the herd instinct by those who are one jump ahead of those who are still in a state of despondency, and by those who, when things are in a state of boom, have the wisdom to realise that booms do not last forever.

The proper recipe for Ireland today is to anticipate the growth which will take place towards the end of 1975, to prepare for that now, to make sure that our capacity will be sufficient to meet the growth which should be quite significant towards the end of 1975 and throughout 1976. If we have the wisdom to do that, we can overcome the delay in improvement which has been our normal experience but which is unnecessary. That is one of the reasons why, notwithstanding the constraints on resources this year, we have given an addition of 43 per cent for industrial expansion, maintenance, development and improvement and for new industries this year. We regard this year as one to prepare for the inevitable growth which is ahead of us. The great opportunities which we foresaw for this country on entry to the EEC are still there. Distressing and all as our experience has been throughout 1974, it would have been immeasureably worse and indeed devastating, if we had not the opportunities and advantages of the EEC open to us. The EEC economy is still basically sound and has within it great capacity for further growth. A number of the EEC countries are, notwithstanding the oil crisis, notwithstanding the fact that they are importers of oil, in a position of surplus and others are in a balanced position, so that, once the upswing comes, these countries will be ready to absorb a very substantial amount of our industrial and agricultural exports.

On the import side of the account there are signs of a considerable deceleration in import prices. In view of this, the increase in the total import bill should be well below what we experienced in 1974. When allowance is made for increased international transfers from the EEC and other sources, the deficit on current account of the balance of payments is likely to be between £240 million and £250 million. This would be a very significant improvement in difficult times, a reduction of £25 million to £35 million in the record deficit which we had of approximately £275 million in 1974. The anticipated reduction in the deficit is, of course, in line with the strategy which we outlined in the White Paper of seeking to reduce the deficit to acceptable proportions over a period of years. This is necessary in order to ensure a gradual repayment of our debts and in order to show conviction to other countries that we are tackling this problem with which every country will have to deal.

One of the main determining factors in deciding to introduce what was a carefully expansionary current budget was the Government's commitment to maintain employment. We have given in the budget a boost to domestic demand by the significant tax reliefs of just £28 million and by the social welfare improvements. Initially this should result in an end to shorttime working which has been a major factor in pushing up the numbers on the live register over the past few months. The numbers on short time have varied for some weeks around 10 per cent of the total live register. This situation, with the tax reliefs which we have given and with the gradual improvement in the world economic climate, should begin to correct itself before too long.

In addition to aid for existing industry the public capital programme is designed to give a further boost to employment prospects. Particular emphasis has been placed on grants for industrial development with a view to increasing in 1975 and in subsequent years both industrial potential which we regard as vitally important and job opportunities. To this end the Exchequer contribution to industrial development, through the IDA, was raised for this year from £19.5 million to £42.5 million. These measures indicate the central role which the maintenance of employment has in the Government's economic strategy for this year.

We are in no way complacent about the unemployment situation. It constantly concerns us, but it is worthwhile pointing out that we have had one of the smallest growths in unemployment in Europe in 1974. Other economies have had increases in their unemployment rates of as much as 150 and 200 per cent while ours has been between 30 and 40 per cent. That is much more than we would wish for but the fact that other economies, including ones which have no balance of payments deficits and which are not obliged to borrow abroad, have had bigger cutbacks and a greater growth in unemployment, is an indication that the Government and our economy are maintaining the maximum amount of employment in difficult circumstances.

In addition to job creation we are maintaining our objective of increasing industrial development in the deprived regions. The IDA have established 23,000 jobs as the target for industrial job creation in 1975. They are confident of achieving this target. An achievement such as this at a time of serious world depression can be considered marvellous.

I should like to deal with some specific points that have been raised. Deputy Lynch appeared to suggest that external factors were in no way the cause of unemployment in Irish industry. He said that the fact that industrial exports had increased by 40 per cent was proof of that. If the world economic climate had not deteriorated and if the economy in Britain—which is one of our largest markets—were not in the mess in which it is, our industrial exports for 1974 would have been much greater than they were. If we had been able to maintain throughout 1974 the momentum we had at the beginning of the year we would have had a dramatic improvement in the number of people employed in industry. Towards the end of the year there were employed in industry here the same number of people as were employed in that sector at the beginning of the year. That, too, was a unique experience in the European and, indeed, in the world environment.

The world recession has affected adversely foreign demand as well as domestic demand. Despite the expansion of industrial exports last year, consumer demand at home fell and this led to an increase in overall unemployment. There were two other reasons for rising unemployment, first, firms producing for the home market may have lost part of that market because of intense foreign competition and, secondly, the increase in industrial exports may have been generated to a large extent by newer exporting firms with assured markets while older export firms may have been affected by the depressed level of external demand.

A number of Deputies, including Deputy O'Connor and Deputy Dr. Hugh Gibbons and speakers on the Government side, emphasised that the buying of Irish goods is completely within our own control. There is no restraint on us either by reason of EEC, GATT or any other obligations, from buying Irish goods. All that prevents us from buying home-produced goods is our indifference or our own disinclination to support Irish industry. That tendency has never been justifiable. It is unforgivable that people would not give due preference to Irish goods at a time when Irish industry is so dependent on the home-market. It is now more important than ever to buy Irish when so many of foreign markets that were available to us have shrunk because of economic difficulties in those countries.

I should hope that out of the current debate regarding the problems of Irish industry, people will recognise an obligation to persist in their support of Irish industry and to be proud, as they should be, of the high quality of our goods, a quality that many people may have doubted for a long time but the fact that Irish industry has shown the greatest growth in industrial exports of any European country in recent years, is proof that what Ireland can produce, Ireland can sell in any part of the world. The Government have warned, as has every prudent economist, that while the quality of our products is good and will always be accepted as such, we must keep the price right. Whether we do that will depend on our own willingness to moderate our expectations of income improvements. A number of Deputies opposite endeavoured to belittle the effect which imported inflation had on prices.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present.

I want to draw attention to the fact that, notwithstanding the jeers of the Opposition, 60 per cent of our inflation is imported from abroad. Either we import necessary goods from abroad, or we go without. As long as we are obliged to import essential items like energy and so forth from abroad, we will have to pay world prices for these essential commodities. If anybody knows of any markets where these things can be got below world prices, I and the Government would be only too happy to hear about it.

The simple fact has to be faced that, if we want to buy essential goods from the world, we have to pay the world prices. It is the seller who dictates the price and not the buyer. As I said earlier, there is a hope that throughout 1975 the prices of some commodities will level off and that we will not see, because of the world recession at the moment, increases in prices. Demand in many cases is now less than supply. Indeed in some cases producers and suppliers may be forced to drop their prices in order to find markets for their commodities. This will lead throughout 1975 to a situation in which the percentage of inflation attributable to outside causes may become less. Therefore we would need to take extra care not to generate domestic inflation at a rate even equal to that which we have generated in recent years.

There have been suggestions from the Opposition that the Government propose to abandon price control. I would hope that the debate which is now taking place on prices during Private Members' Time, and the speech yesterday and other utterances from the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Government, will show that the Government intend to continue to keep control over prices. An essential consideration in determining a proper price is the provision of an adequate profit so that employment can be maintained. It would be a stupid policy indeed which put such a curtailment on prices that profits were eroded and converted into losses to such an extent that people became unemployed because of the inability of employers to pay them.

Already a number of employers have said that they are unable to meet the 10 per cent threshold increase in the national wage agreement because their profit situation is in jeopardy. The tax reliefs given in the budget to industry will be of some assistance to these people, but we must face the possibility that in some cases there may have to be an adjustment of the previous guideline for prices if industry and employment are to be maintained. I have not heard anybody suggest yet that employment should be put in jeopardy in order to keep prices down.

Some commentators have suggested that the Government should come to the aid of industries which are unable to meet the 10 per cent threshold in the 1974 wage agreement. Indeed they have further argued that the State should provide the proportion of pay necessary to enable employers to meet what exists under the 1974 national wage agreement and any future pay agreement.

I want to put beyond all doubt the Government's attitude on this matter. This attitude is not due to any disinclination on the part of the Government to help. It is dictated by economic realities; those realities I outlined at the beginning, the reality of a deficit of £125 million, the reality of taxation which in most areas cannot be increased without acting as a disincentive, the reality that the current budget is now running at £1,250 million odd. In a time of economic difficulties the State is unlikely to enjoy buoyancy in revenue such as was enjoyed in days when, in common with the rest of the world, Ireland was enjoying an economic boom.

In 1974, notwithstanding inflation which many commentators jeeringly suggested was something which Ministers for Finance relished because it improved revenue, we found that revenue buoyancy fell. Estimates of revenue were not fulfilled in the outturn. In 1975 we have been extremely cautious in our estimates of revenue. While we have been cautious we have been realistic. It would be wrong for anybody to assume that there will be a significant difference in the estimates of revenue made for 1975. There will not be.

Even if the Government were willing to come to the assistance of industry and employers for the purpose of paying wages, the Government could get that money only by taxation, or by borrowing abroad. For the reasons which I spoke about at such length earlier, it would be imprudent to increase our foreign borrowing significantly and certainly we would be unwise to increase our foreign borrowing for the purpose of meeting current consumption. If foreign borrowing is to be made it ought to be concentrated on investment so that the moneys invested will improve the country's capacity to repay the borrowing made, and to pay the interest on it. To return to prices, it seems to me that the suggestions from the Opposition on prices are ill-judged and hasty. We must look at the consequences of all price increases. We must look not merely at the consumers' interest, which is a very valid one—and one does not wish to see the consumer carrying any more costs than are necessary—but also at the employment position, and indeed not merely the current employment position but also the capacity of firms to re-invest in order to expand later on.

Deputy Colley suggested that I had not done anything in the budget to try to break the inflationary trend. It is probable that the indirect taxation imposed in this year's budget will increase the consumer price index by about 1¾ per cent. We did not do this with any great relish. The impact of that increase could be reduced if we, as a community, did as many other countries do, that is, if we eliminated from the base of indexation of income increases such elements of indirect taxation as amount to expenditure on luxuries in order to transfer resources to poorer sections of the community.

I would remind the House that the Government drew attention to this sensible discipline in the White Paper, A National Partnership. While we have spoken about this in that White Paper and elsewhere, we have not yet heard anyone say it would be wrong to eliminate such a percentage from wage calculations in future. This seems to indicate that people realise this is a reasonable and not unfair thing to do, particularly at a time of economic difficulty.

If we had the wisdom to do that, we could significantly reduce the effect which otherwise indirect taxation would have upon costs generally.

The additional indirect taxation on luxuries in this budget was unavoidable unless desirable essential increases in social welfare allowances were to be foregone. The cost of the total social welfare benefits is £34.63 million while the yield from the additional indirect taxation is estimated at £32 million and, as I pointed out earlier, tax reliefs in the budget have amounted to £28 million.

The other options open to the Government would have been to increase income tax, which we considered to be wrong at a time when many incomes were in fact falling in both nominal and real terms, or we could have increased indirect taxation, for example, on VAT, or we could have increased the budget deficit and, if we had increased the budget deficit, we would also have had to increase the foreign borrowing requirements. I have no doubt that, if we had adopted any of these other courses, they would have met with equal objection from the Opposition.

Prior to the budget there was a suggestion in the report prepared by the secretariat of NESC, subsequently endorsed by others, that taxation reductions should be on VAT and not on incomes. I had the opportunity of meeting the social partners prior to the budget and I put to each in turn what their preference would be—a reduction on VAT or an increase in personal allowances in income tax— and they were unanimously of the view that tax reductions should be given by means of income tax allowances and not on VAT. That was because it was seen, as it will be seen by any sensible person, that if income tax allowances had not been adjusted, people would have sought bigger wages to compensate for the erosion because of inflation of the personal allowances under the income tax code. It was also seen by many people that a reduction in VAT rates would not necessarily mean that the reductions would be passed on to the consumer. There would be a likelihood that at least a proportion of the reductions would have been lost in profits before any part of the benefit reached the consumer.

On the VAT front it was suggested by Deputy Colley that we could have reduced VAT by 4 percentage points and this would have produced a reduction in living costs. To do that would have meant forfeiting £67 million revenue and that £67 million would have had to be made up elsewhere. The £67 million, if it were imposed on the old reliables in addition to what we imposed, would have meant colossal increases in these items to a point where there certainly would have been a reduction in consumption and a consequential material reduction in revenue. If we added on those increases, which would be thrice the increases we imposed, the cost of living would have risen by between 5 per cent and 6 per cent, all for the purpose of tricking around with the VAT system to get an illusory reduction of 1½ per cent to 2 per cent. The net position would have been an increase of 4 per cent in the cost of living and a loss of revenue. That loss would have had to be made good elsewhere. This, again, is another example of the total confusion in thinking on the part of the Opposition. Every proposal they made in this debate in itself contained its own contradiction and, as if that were not good enough, there was not a speaker on those benches opposite who made any proposal which was not subsequently contradicted by one of his colleagues. Of course, the sincerity of people who talk about reducing VAT on essential items can be fairly tested against their promises in this House that, when they return to power, they would reimpose VAT on foodstuffs. Now they talk about having food subsidies.

Tell me, who made that promise?

Deputy Haughey. Is Deputy Colley repudiating it?

In 1973 in this House.

Would the Minister care to quote?

I will get the quotation.

I would be very grateful if the Minister would.

I know Deputy Colley will be very glad to have something with which to hammer Deputy Haughey and I shall be only too glad to give it to him.

Actually I am more interested in the truth.

This is the truth. Deputy Haughey's view is that the Fianna Fáil Government, if returned to power, should re-impose VAT on foodstuffs. Instead of this wonderful 5 per cent reduction that Fianna Fáil were going to get by producing £100 million out of the air to subsidise foodstuffs, their policy, certainly until recently, was to have a tax of over 5 per cent on food. I think we can now reject as another insincere and badly thought out idea this suggestion that Fianna Fáil would subsidise foodstuffs. Their behaviour in the past was to abolish with one stroke, all subsidies on foodstuffs and they followed that up by imposing a tax on food which remained for ten years until we got into power in 1973 and wiped it out.

I have, I think, covered the main lines of criticism of the budget. As I said earlier, they were obviously very shallow and badly thought out and there was no effort at all by the Opposition to produce a party line because they contradicted one another again and again and the way in which the debate fizzled out indicates an indifference on their part as to what is really happening. On that account, I have great confidence in recommending this third budget of the National Coalition to Dáil Éireann for approval.

A Cheann Comhairle there are one or two matters to which I should like to draw the attention of the House.

Was the Minister concluding? I wished to offer.

The Deputy missed the bus.

That may be, but I was told this morning there was so much business we could not cope with all the financial business.

There was none of the Opposition sitting over there.

It is rather surprising that Government Deputies had nothing further to say. I shall have to accept the Chair's ruling in this, but I should like to draw attention to the answer the Taoiseach gave me this morning about the time for public business. Now the House is collapsing.

Because the Opposition were not here.

If the Parliamentary Secretary does not mind, we will deal with that point in a moment.

On a point of order, is Deputy de Valera in order in raising this business again? I am willing to give the House an explanation.

The Parliamentary Secretary will get an opportunity to do that in a moment. I should like to raise a point of order now on the order moved this morning and passed by the House in regard to the conclusion of this debate. It mentioned the conclusion not later than 9.15 p.m., or whatever time is set out, by a member of the Government. On what basis are we to assume that the Minister for Finance was the Member of the Government concluding on behalf of the Government?

The order this morning provided for the conclusion of business at 10.15 p.m. but it contained the stipulation "if not previously concluded". Hence it could conclude earlier and, indeed, it has concluded. All the Fianna Fáil speakers offering were called and, when no further Members offered, the Minister was called on at 12.12 p.m. to reply. In the circumstances the provision in the order for a final Fianna Fáil speaker to be called not later than 8.15 p.m. was rendered abortive.

My point is on what basis is it assumed that the Minister for Finance was the member of the Government referred to in the order?

That is not a matter for me. The operative wording is "if not previously concluded".

I appreciate that. If it has concluded, that is one situation, but it is only concluded if the member of the Government referred to in the order is concluding.

The Chair called on the Minister to conclude when no other Members offered.

Did the Chair ask the Minister to conclude—call on the Minister?

The Minister could not speak a second time except to conclude.

With respect, for the record——

Deputies

Chair.

Is it in order for Deputy de Valera to cross-examine?

I do not question the Chair's ruling at all. I merely want to ascertain the facts: I am sorry I was not here. The fact is that Deputy O'Malley and I were engaged on a special committee of this House the whole morning and if we had had the slightest warning one of us could have come in. We have been sitting since 10.30 on the Law Reform Bill Committee and we were not informed.

For the record, since the peculiar situation has arisen in which, despite the order made this morning, I have not been allowed to reply, it should be placed on the record of the House that the Chief Whip of the Fianna Fáil Party was informed this morning by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach of the names of four Deputies on the Government side who intended to speak in the debate and who did not speak. It is only correct that that should be placed on the record of the House. Whatever the reason for their not speaking it is not my business but it contributed to what has occurred.

Furthermore, may I say——

I am calling the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach.

I want to make it quite clear that the way this situation has developed is in no way an attempt by the Government to boobytrap the Opposition. It is not an attempt to do that at all. The situation, as I understood it and anticipated it this morning was that I knew of three or four Government Deputies whom I gratuitously named and which I was under no obligation to do, for Deputy Lalor. I will tell the House who they were if Deputy Lalor would like me to do so, because they did intend to speak and are disappointed at not having had the opportunity but it just so happened that at the moment Deputy O'Connor sat down there was no one else in the House at all except a member of the Government side who was not among the four Deputies I had mentioned but there was no intention on our side to lay a landmine under the Opposition in this regard. I appreciate Deputy de Valera's disappointment. I assure him that it is shared in some degree by the people on this side who have been deprived of an opportunity to speak.

I thank the Parliamentary Secretary for that. We appreciate that that is what happened. The Parliamentary Secretary, through the Chair, will forgive me if I emphasise that it is very difficult to get the opportunity for discussing financial business. I have been seeking the opportunity. I know it is nobody's fault that I was not here. I was engaged on a committee of the House all that time along with Deputy O'Malley and other Deputies on the Government side.

And your Whip let you down.

The Chair must now——

Before you put the question, could I ask the Minister one question arising out of his speech? The Minister will recall that in his budget speech he stated specifically that the Minister for Industry and Commerce would take part in the budget debate and spell out precisely what was intended to be done in regard to price control. Would the Minister tell us why that has not been done?

Along with Deputy Fintan Coogan I think I was the only Deputy now in the House who was in the House when the Chair called upon me to conclude. When Deputy O'Connor, who was speaking from the back benches—there was no member in the Fianna Fáil front bench at the time—sat down, Deputy Coogan spoke and when he sat down the Chair called upon me to conclude, there being no other Deputy in the House much less anybody offering or in a position to speak. The Minister for Industry and Commerce had, in fact, intended to speak today and I know that he was ready to speak but in the situation which arose there was no option but for the Minister to respond to the request from the Chair. May I say that perhaps if I had had further time I might have spoken in a very different way but I also had to respond to the situation as it occurred? As Deputy Colley knows, the Minister for Industry and Commerce did make a very useful speech last night on this question of price control on a Private Members' Motion. So, his words of wisdom have not been lost to the House.

His interruption lasted longer than his speech today.

I am putting the question.

I understood from the motion passed this morning that that resolution would not be put until 10.15 p.m.

Standing Orders provide for the postponement of the divisions on Estimates and motions taken in conjunction therewith until 10.15 p.m. in accordance with Standing Order No. 123 but all other divisions must take place when challenged. Hence, the division on the Financial Resolution must take place now.

The motion said it would be brought to conclusion at 10.15 p.m. by being put from the Chair at 10.15 p.m.

If not concluded earlier.

Question put and declared carried.
Business suspended at 1.25 p.m. and resumed at 3 p.m.
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