asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce the estimated yield to the State in each of the next ten years from Tara Mines, Navan, County Meath from (a) equity, (b) taxation and (c) royalties.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Tara Mines.
17.
It would be contrary to the normal practice to provide information of the kind requested by the Deputy in respect of a commercial concern.
Would the Minister agree that this is not a commercial concern of the type he is referring to because the State has a major equity stake now, for better or for worse, in it? A lot of public money is now, directly or indirectly, committed to it and presumably at some time will become involved in it. The taxpayers have a right to know what they are likly to get from the equity stake which the Minister holds on their behalf in this enterprise.
I do not accept the thesis of the Deputy. The Deputy is aware that there exists, for example, IDA shareholdings in a number of firms. These are operated by the normal commercial criteria and these sorts of projections emanating from an official source in regard to growth profitability for a commercial concern with quoted shares, are contrary to practice for reasons that seem to be good.
Would the Minister not agree that this is a different matter from the IDA taking up shares in an existing company? This mine has not yet gone into production. The State have now an interest in it, we are told to the extent of 67 per cent, and why is it that we cannot be given this information? Is the Minister not aware of the likely return over each of the next ten years from the three interests it has by way of equity, taxation and royalties from the mine?
On the matter of the share, when the Deputy said that the State had a share of 67 per cent he was using words imprecisely.
I am quoting what the Minister announced.
I say that for the record and not to get into an argument about it. I say it to indicate my demur at this moment. I believe it is essential that firms in which the State have an interest operate according to normal and hard commercial criteria. If they are so required to operate in competition with the private sector with internationally quoted shares they are entitled to the same sort of protection accorded to other enterprises operating in the market place by the rules of the market place. I do not think it is normal practice and I do not think it is advantageous to make the sort of guesstimate the Deputy asked for. The Deputy must know that over a period of ten years, even if it were the correct practice which I affirm it is not, it would be an exercise in fantasy because there is no way in which one can have answers of the kind requested by the Deputy, especially in such an unstable thing as mining.
Is it not the position that the Minister made an agreement with a private company in relation to the future operation of this mine without knowing, even in an approximate way, what return the State would be likely to get? How can the taxpayer or the public generally judge whether or not this is a worthwhile agreement if the Minister does not know what the State will get?
The Deputy must know that through Fóir Teoranta, the ICC, the IDA and so on, the State is entering into agreements involving money and the repayment of money with commercial firms every day of the week and has been for many decades without giving this sort of hard information the Deputy is asking for. I have called the requesting of that information an exercise in fantasy but none the less competent people make judgments in regard to public and private enterprises without having that sort of hard information and without the possibility of getting it.
My information is that the Minister has not signed the lease with Tara and I should like to know when he will be signing it?
That is a separate question.
The agreement has not been signed.
The agreement has not been signed although it has been on the Minister's desk for more than two months.
When will work restart? I understand no one is working there at present.
I am calling the next question. I cannot allow any further supplementaries.
Is the Minister aware that people have been laid off by the contractors because the Minister has not signed the lease?
It is regrettable that the Minister will not answer those supplementaries.
I gave Deputy O'Malley a lot of latitude on that question.
I accept that. The Chair was very good today.
We have only dealt with 18 questions in one hour.
The Chair is letting the Minister off the hook.
I am perfectly happy to answer reasonable supplementaries but I cannot give reasonable answers if the subject matter is spread so widely that I have no brief for it. If Deputies put down questions relating to this matter I will do my best to answer them.