Vote 12: An Chomhairle Ealaíon.

The Taoiseach

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £200,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1975, for a grant (grant-in-aid) to An Comhairle Ealaíon.

The council have reached a stage which makes it necessary for us to pass this Vote in order that further issues can be made by the council and I understand there is agreement between the Whips to take this Vote now. The provision of £200,000 represents an increase of 33? per cent in the level of last year's grant. The report and accounts of the council for 1973-74 were presented to the House and the report for the last nine-month financial period will shortly be available.

Mr. J. Lynch

We were given to understand there was a certain urgency in the provision of these moneys and that is why we agreed to take this Estimate this morning. I can only express my disappointment and dissatisfaction at the manner in which the Taoiseach has introduced the Estimate. He has given us no particulars whatever and the Estimate is presented in the Book of Estimates without any elaboration other than an indication of the total grant-in-aid. Having regard to the ready co-operation we extended, I would have expected more information from the Taoiseach as to the disposal of the moneys and, because of the absence of such information I can only speak in vacuo since I have no knowledge of the policy of An Chomhairle Ealaíon at the present time and there is no indication of what the body proposes to do with this money.

I know they have plenty of commitments and plenty of means of spending the money. From my own experience, I know there are a thousand and one requests and demands from different organisations with a fairly substantial and justifiable claim for assistance, all of which cannot be met; indeed, only a fraction can be met. For every one cause or organisation An Chomhairle Ealaíon can assist there are about 50 equally worthy causes they would like to assist but cannot because they have not got the necessary finance.

There is an increase in this Vote and that is welcome. However, we all know that £200,000 today is far too little really for the council's purposes. I was glad the Government honoured the commitment of the outgoing Fianna Fáil Government to subsidise the Irish Ballet Company and the Irish Theatre Company. These are providing excellent entertainment of excellent standards. They are operating mainly in the provinces but they have come to Dublin on occasion. They can truly be regarded as nationwide organisations, cultural undertakings giving good value for the amount of money given to them. What we would like to see is some initiative on the part of the Government. Honouring undertakings given by the previous Government is one thing; the provision of adequate assistance in, to use an in expression, an on-going situation is another thing. Having assisted ballet and theatre, we must now ensure that all the visual arts and all the creative arts are equally assisted to the fullest extent possible. I would, therefore, like to see the Government taking some initiative. I should like to see action on the ground and there is quite a share of ground on which Government action could be expected.

It is not, perhaps, completely relevant to this debate but it is noteworthy that a Government which would regard itself as having some aesthetic values would not see fit to assist in the purchase of what is a national treasure such as Fota Island is. It is an artistic asset in its own right but, unfortunately, the Government have ignored completely the value of this asset to the nation. I know the Minister for Finance, when this was brought before him during the debate on the appropriate Estimate, said it was a local matter because it was situated some 160 miles from Dublin. That is not the right kind of thinking for a Government whose responsibility extends throughout the whole country. As I said to the Minister at the time, if Fota Island were located within 20 miles of Dublin city, then I feel sure the attitude of the Government would have been different and they would have regarded it as a treasure worth preserving for the nation.

I will come nearer home. At the present time we have an area where action on the ground in the artistic field is possible even for the Government. I refer in particular to the Olympia Theatre which suffered serious structural damage by some inherent defect several months ago. It is one of the last two fairly independently-run theatres we have in this city. The Gaiety was saved, perhaps by the grace of God and a bit of foresight by the then Minister for Local Government, in indicating that the kind of development envisaged for it, when it came on the market, would not be permitted.

The same applied to the Olympia Theatre when it, too came on the market and when speculators—I do not use that in any derogatory sense —from London bought it and the area surrounding it, the then Minister for Local Government, in association with—to give them their due they helped the Minister—Dublin Corporation ensured that the Olympia Theatre would be preserved for its main purpose, the presentation of stage offerings in acting, song and otherwise. Now we have the unfortunate situation that, because of the passage of time, the Olympia Theatre has suffered a severe structural defect and there is far too much dragging of feet. There is a small band of men there, dedicated people, who came together, formed a company and took a limited lease of the Olympia Theatre. Unfortunately, they do not know where they stand now, whether they will get any assistance from the Government to ensure that this theatre will be preserved not only for the people of Dublin but for the people of the country as well. This is a national asset as well as any of those well-known theatres throughout the country and it ought to be preserved.

This also is an indication of where action is possible for the Government if they have the will to undertake it. I have always held that if there is political will in almost any sphere then it is possible. Civil servants, whether they be working at national or local level, will carry out the will of those who have the power of political direction, which comes mainly from the top. I appeal to the Taoiseach to ensure that where there are assets to be preserved, like the Olympia Theatre and Fota Island, the direction comes from the top. I feel in some cases Ministers who are indifferent about these matters and Ministers who are intellectually remote from these things, if left to themselves, will not apply the necessary will and the necessary dedication to doing the right thing. The Taoiseach in these cases ought to direct his Ministers to ensure that proper assistance is given and that, above all, our national heritage will not be left waste.

I was recently in Vienna on my way back from Srilanka. I know most people recognise there are magnificent buildings, of all descriptions mainly left by the Hapsburg family, to the Austrian and Viennese people but the famous Opera House, the Stadt Opera, as it is called, was damaged over a decade. It was almost completely destroyed. Almost at once its restoration was undertaken. Some years ago I was in Germany in my capacity as Minister for Industry and Commerce when I was helping a particular area to attract certain industries to this country. I went to the town of Essen which was almost annihilated during the war. I discovered the first thing they restored was their Opera House. That is the kind of mentality which persists in many of those Continental countries. Some semblance of it ought to spill over on us. We should ensure that where we have something worth while preserving we have the political will, the necessary intellectual commitment—not lip service—and the aesthetic commitment to ensure these things are preserved.

I do not want to delay any longer except to say again I was disappointed that we got no indication whatever with regard to the direction this £200,000 was to be expended. I know there are many areas where it could be expended and that there are many calls on it but there are very obviously cases, having regard to all the claims for priority, where some assistance could be given to ensure that things I have referred to are preserved and maintained for the people.

Mr. Wilson

I am also disappointed that the introduction of the Estimate in this way precludes discussion on the activities of An Chomhairle Ealaíon. I hope an opportunity is made available to the House for such a discussion later on. I do not know how this can be arranged procedurally but I invite the Taoiseach in his reply to give his views on it. The amount of money, comparatively speaking, is not great but it is probably £ for £ a sum of money that should be watched most carefully by the House because of expenditure on very important aspects of the life of the country.

I should like to have had an opportunity to assess the activities of the New Theatre Company and its relationship to the Abbey Theatre, to find out how this money is being spent. I should like to know how the new Comhairle is working. I understand the chairman has accepted a position in the new educational institute in Firenze and I would like to know if the question of appointing a successor has been raised or considered by the Government. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach knows something about it because he knows the stable from which the best thorough-breds in that regard seem to come.

I should like to know how the new specialised committees of the various arts, those which deal with sculpture, painting and so on, are working, if they are working. In proper discussion on this Estimate we could tease out all these matters. When the new legislation was going through the House a point was made in relation to artistic activity that provincial centres should be accorded their due place and that the people who are responsible for the expenditure of the moneys would not fix their gaze so steadfastly on the capital city in the future. I should like to have an opportunity to discuss how all this could be related to new plans, for example, for adult education where, perhaps, the Arts centre in a provincial town and the adult education centre could be brought into unison to the mutual benefit of both; in fact, how an educational programme in the Arts could be sponsored and developed by the Adult Education Authority, when there would be illustrative material available at a local Arts centre.

I should like also to know how far the Arts Council is committed to supporting, say, poets or prose writers in the Irish language. We seem to be relying more and more on external support, particularly from the United States, for those who are attempting to develop a literature in the Irish language at present.

I know it is a different Estimate that caters for the National Museum and the National Library. But I think the Arts Council, An Chomhairle Ealaíon, should have a monitor, somebody to watch for sales, for example, of important items—books and other important museum items. I know that the fund available to the National Library and the National Museum for this is meagre enough. I feel the Arts Council should have a special responsibility in this regard, particularly as some items are purchased—admittedly, it is good they are in this country—by the Belfast Museum. But there is only one National Museum and that is in Dublin. There is only one National Library and that is in Dublin.

I should like also to have an opportunity to see what An Chomhairle Ealaíon are doing with regard to a wonderful crop of young poets in the English language as well. The pleasing aspect of this is that this generation of young poets is a nationwide generation. In other words, youthful poetic activity in the Six Counties part of the country and in the South is very promising. I should like to have an opportunity of seeing what the Arts Council are doing in that respect.

The Leader of the Opposition said we are indulging in a game of blind man's buff here because we have had no outline of the activities of An Chomhairle Ealaíon and, consequently, it is very difficult to have a discussion. Before concluding, I should like to suggest to the Taoiseach that he make time available for a general discussion on this Estimate.

Mr. Healy

I should like to join the previous speaker in saying I regret we have not a better opportunity of commenting on this Estimate. We are not a very wealthy nation but we do not give enough publicity, time or money to cultural things. To my mind, the money available to An Chomhairle Ealaíon is far too small for the activities in which I should like to see them engage. I should like to pay tribute to them for what they have done over the years with the money placed at their disposal.

I should like to ask the Taoiseach if there is any possibility that An Chomhairle Ealaíon would take over from Bord Fáilte the financial subvention of some of the international festivals we have here at present started under the aegis of Bord Fáilte more than 20 years ago, largely as tourist promotions and which have become now, in many instances, international cultural features which reflect a great deal of credit on the organisers and participants. In Cork next week there will commence the Twenty-second International Choral Festival, attracting 73 choirs, 50 of them from outside the country and a dozen from behind the Iron Curtain. The planning and organisation of such an event must commence more than a year or two before it takes place. When the organisers are dependent on Bord Fáilte's budget to ascertain whether or not they can run it, it makes their position intolerable. To my mind, this is one of the things which should come under the aegis of the Arts Council, who would be much more competent to assess the value of such things for the country in the cultural sense anyway. I do not want to be parochial about them. We have two in Cork. There is also the Wexford Festival, the Waterford Festival and, perhaps, one or two others without which the country would be very much poorer. I know we are confined to a few remarks this morning.

Mr. J. Lynch

Indeed the Deputy is not.

Mr. Healy

I do not want to delay the House. I should like to compliment An Chomhairle Ealaíon and particularly the Art Gallery on the way they are now distributing the nation's pictures outside the National Gallery in Dublin and giving centres such as Cork a fair show. I should like to pay tribute to the Director of the National Gallery in that respect. The Cork International Film Festival takes place in June for the 21st consecutive time. They are very handicapped by not having direct intervention in some form from the Arts Council.

Like Deputy Wilson, I should greatly appreciate if the Taoiseach could see his way to direct the business of the House so that we could say a little more and be furnished with more information about the activities of the Arts Council. Naturally, I was very interested in the formation of the second Irish theatre. I wish it success. It was opened in Cork and the play they performed was very well chosen and acted. The work they are doing and the aims they have in view are excellent. As Deputy Lynch pointed out, now that we are in Europe, we can appreciate the value Europeans place on cultural matters. We must also feel far behind in the international sphere, when one observes the pains to which they have gone and the expenditure they have undertaken to restore old buildings, their opera houses the theatres, in line with housing their people. Unfortunately, we have not got that tradition but that is one of the beneficial effects of our entry into Europe. I hope we will make such progress and I should like to see much more money being made available to An Chomhairle Ealaíon than is made available to them at present and see them engaging in more of this type of activity.

Mr. J. Lynch

Before the Taoiseach replies—now that the Minister for Defence is at his side—perhaps I could put one question to him. It has been the practice in the past, since Deputy Healy has referred to the Cork International Choral Festival, that the Army No. 2 Band assisted in that festival. They have given buglers and made available some of their band personnel to the Cork Symphony Orchestra. I believe some difficulty arose about the availability of the Army No. 2 Band this year during the week of the choral festival. It was understood that their services were required for the Dublin Spring Show. This is the kind of activity that we, non-Dubliners, do not like to see develop. I wonder has the problem been resolved.

The Taoiseach

It was the practice for the band of the Southern Command to perform at the Cork Choral Festival but it was their turn to spend the week at the Dublin Spring Show. The request from the Cork Choral Festival has been acceded to and the band is available for that, both as a band——

Mr. J. Lynch

I am glad to hear it.

The Taoiseach

——and individual members for performances and rehearsals for the last number of weeks.

In reply to the remarks made by the Leader of the Opposition and others I should say, first, I appreciate that a number of Deputies—in fact, many Deputies from this side of the House—were anxious to speak as well. But I understood that an arrangement had been reached with the Whips that because of the need to pass the Vote there are a number of items of expenditure which An Chomhairle Ealaíon have agreed to defray and it is necessary to have the money for them. If the House wishes and it is possible to arrange a suitable time, it would certainly be agreeable to me and the Government Whip to arrange an occasion either to have a motion or a token vote in order to provide time for a further discussion.

I should say, however, that a number of the matters that have been raised are strictly within the discretion of An Chomhairle Ealaíon and any comment or suggestions that I or any Deputy or Member of the Seanad might wish to make would only be recommendations or observations. In fact, An Chomhairle in the course of their report which is available for 1973-1974 and in the report for the last nine-month period which will shortly be available have set out in great detail the items under which they had committed themselves for expenditure and the various matters that have been assisted in one form or another, in each case setting out the actual amount given by way of assistance for exhibitions in respect of the visual arts, music, ballet, and the various bodies that are helped—literary, educational, dramatic and so on. I do not think it is necessary for me to go through all these but if Deputies look at the report they will see that these matters are covered in very great detail.

In addition, An Chomhairle refer in the course of the report to the fact that they had before them and read carefully the comments of Deputies during the passage of the amending Act of 1973. Under the 1951 Act, as amended by the 1973 Act, the entire discretion as to how the money is spent is within the province of An Chomhairle. They, naturally, take into account the comments that are made and, as the Leader of the Opposition said, both An Chomhairle and whoever is responsible receive numerous representations for expenditure on a variety of worthy objectives and the question is how can the available funds be distributed.

The Leader of the Opposition did raise a number of somewhat wider matters. One is the question of Fota. This is a matter for the Office of Public Works and as the House is aware it was considered and I understand that certain action is being taken by the bodies interested in it in Cork.

I think it is correct to say that there is no particular bias in favour of Dublin or any other area. In fact, An Chomhairle Ealaíon have helped projects all over the country. It is true that a number of Cork Deputies did table a motion on Fota here but that is more appropriate to the Office of Public Works.

Mr. J. Lynch

The Government defeated the motion and, in effect, said: "No, we will not assist Fota".

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is aware that the motion was signed by Cork Deputies only and even in his own party apparently it did not secure the same appreciation outside Cork.

Mr. J. Lynch

We did not ask for it. We could have got every member of the party to sign it if we wanted to. The fact is that the Government refused to assist in Fota.

The Taoiseach

As the Deputy knows, there are a number of problems involved in it. There is agitation on the one hand for land distribution. There is an approach from the university in Cork. There is also a problem involved of both local authorities, I understand Cork Corporation and the Cork County Council. It would be a mistake to imagine that every property that comes on the market, no matter how desirable it is, can automatically be taken over by the State. Involved in that would be expenditure of a very considerable amount.

Mr. Meaney

The joint body of Cork County Council and Cork City Council are not involved in Fota now. The motion we had down covered the farmers' representations. I want to be factual.

The Taoiseach

As far as the Olympia Theatre is concerned, the problem here is not merely one of finance; there is also the question of clarifying the legal position as to the right of the lessees to carry out the restoration work. This has yet to be clarified. The Arts Council, in fact, gave a grant of £1,000 as an earnest of its goodwill towards the restoration project, although the council is aware of the doubtful legal position.

On this general question, as the House is aware, An Chomhairle Ealaíon itself functions under the Arts Act, 1951, as amended by the 1973 Act, but, in addition, the State provides considerable sums of money under the Miscellaneous Vote of the Minister for Finance under which help is given to the theatre, to the Abbey Theatre and other theatres. As the House is aware, that has been the position for very many years going back to the twenties. In recent times there have been suggestions that all these cultural activities be brought under one heading and, indeed, under one body but because of the conflicting interests involved and the fact that a number of these arrangements have been in operation for many years there has been a reluctance on the part of some of those involved to depart from that procedure. While the Minister and the Government might wish to do so, one has to take into account the fact that what has been operating for a considerable time has achieved a certain sanction or status and to transfer all these cultural activities to the Arts Council would involve far-reaching changes, although it is correct to say that the matter has been the subject of consideration and consultation over a period.

We can all share the view expressed by the Leader of the Opposition that there are many more important historic buildings that many of us would like to see maintained or restored. While it is true, as Deputy Healy remarked, that other countries have done a good deal in this regard, in most cases they have considerably greater resources than we have. It is also true that the Office of Public Works has done a great deal in this regard. In many parts of the country restoration work of a magnificent kind has been very effectively carried out by the Office of Public Works.

So far as the question of individual festivals or other matters is concerned, I will draw the attention of the council to the remarks made by Deputies here but, as I say, some of the matters referred to are dealt with under the Miscellaneous Vote of the Minister for Finance and a further opportunity will be available when that Estimate is before the House. If, however, there is a request for time, an arrangement will be made at some later date to have a special debate on the workings of An Chomhairle Ealaíon.

Mr. Coogan

I should like to know——

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy has a question he may put it. He may not comment other than put a question.

Mr. Coogan

This covers a wide field. I should like to know what An Chomhairle Ealaíon can do to help in regard to international festivals. I have experienced, with a great sense of pride, Irish music and dancing being performed in Brittany. I should like to know what we can do to help the international Celtic groups. I know the money available may not cover all we would like to do——

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 1 May 1975