Speaking on the last day I put forward some of our objections on this side of the House to this proposed agreement. Since that time there have been added reasons for looking at this matter again. This document is dated "3rd November, 1974, Brussels", and since then we have seen quite a lot of changes in the supply and demand of oil and gases. There is one basic weakness and that is that I do not believe the Government have proceeded in the right way to set up proper machinery for the handling of (a) imported oils and gases or (b) oils and gases found on our own territory.
This failing is not confined to this country alone. Indeed, much bigger countries have shown that they have not perfected their organisations to handle this very important facet of our whole economic life. Our Government have failed also to set up State machinery or a State Department which would guarantee to the utmost extent possible that our whole approach to the development of natural gases and oils would be done in the best possible manner. I do not think we have the organisation here to do this and we shall pay for this very, very dearly in the future unless the Government decide to go about the matter in a different and a more expert way, because we are on the threshold of tremendous changes in the whole field of vital supplies of gas and oil for this country. I note that this agreement includes 17 countries including very, very powerful countries like the United States and Japan along with others who are not quite so powerful. In fact some of them are about our own size but by now most of these countries are taking this whole matter very seriously indeed. They are not just rushing into this agreement. I do not know what their final attitude will be on it, whether it is at variance with the House of Parliament in the various countries, but from past experience we know that some of these countries are noted for the way in which they perfect their organisation and the whole attitude in their own interests. Nobody would blame them for looking after their own interests, but we in Ireland might well look carefully, before we enter into this agreement, at the home scene, and see what we can do to become good members of some international body which will have as its prime object some kind of equity in the distribution and the development of natural resources.
Tomorrow morning if we were to be told that there was plenty of natural gas and oil on the east coast, apart from the Celtic Sea, if it came further north as far as Dublin, I wonder how we would go about it, because in my opinion we have not got the organisation which is capable of fully developing or finding these resources. In saying that I am quite conscious that we have not got the finance or the personnel to go out and search for oil and gas. Therefore, we have to come to some agreement by perhaps joining multi-nationals so that they will do the work of finding these resources and having done that and having entered into an agreement with them, we can then decide to develop these resources in our interests and on a world-wide level.
Is the Minister confident that we could handle this great problem? If he is not satisfied would he take steps to build up this organisation? To my mind this should be given top priority as regards any Government reorganisation. I feel we are on the brink of a great breakthrough. If the oil and gas is there in sufficient quantities our whole economy will be changed. We could become a fairly affluent country. If because of our own negligence we had to forego some of nature's gifts in the form of gas and oil because we did not take the trouble to recruit extra personnel, to allocate special moneys for planning, we entered into an agreement with six other countries because they will do the job for us, this is a mistake. We have to develop our own resources. Since this was first given to us things have changed rapidly. I feel the Government are not monitoring sufficiently the developments in the finding of gas or oil. I am convinced that when they do find it it is not being put to the best use. I am sure the Minister has acted on the best advice he could get as to how natural gas should be used for conversion into electricity or should NET be given an allocation. It has been pointed out to the Minister that this is a very wasteful way. There are other ways of using natural gas which would give a far better return. To convert into electricity only a 40 per cent return is obtained. To convert into gas 80 per cent return is obtained. The Minister may well say that we have to cut down our oil imports. Therefore he says to the ESB: You take this oil and cut down your oil imports. At the other end of the scale you are paying for it because a return of more than 40 per cent is not possible.
The Minister should have looked at all our resources, whether turf, coal, hydro schemes or tidal waters. He should have a director of fuel resources who would have special powers to enable him to pin-point certain things, such as examining the use of tidal waters or ascertaining if our coal resources can be used. It was said some years ago that it was uneconomic to use our mines. At the time that statement could have been justified. It could be said that we could buy coal outside much cheaper; that coal here costs too much to mine. Those days are gone. Our economy is now depending on these resources.
We are worried now about the destruction of the environment when we see our beaches littered with rubbish. Some countries are generating electricity from the rubbish they burn. This is no startling new invention.
I remember that in my own area we had an electricity station which was using the rubbish from the streets in order to generate electricity. That was the old Pembroke Urban District Council power station at Ringsend. It is now owned by the ESB. They do not use rubbish now to produce electricity: we import oil or use the very scarce natural gas to do it. We could produce energy from our rubbish: it was done in Dublin 30 or 40 years ago and it worked reasonably well at a time when engineers had not got the expertise in this field that they have now. Our streets would be kept cleaner by removing all the rubbish from them and by destroying it in an incinerator which could generate the steam to generate electricity. The records of what they turned out are there for the Minister to see. The ESB have all these records. With the scarcity of energy fuels we may well have to use this type of fuel to fire generating stations. I do not see anything wrong with that. We are saving oil and gas and by destroying this refuse we are generating electricity.
I feel we have been rather cavalier in our attitude to the use of oil. The Minister some time ago levied 28p on petrol. He explained to the House that we were the only nation in Europe which had not done this type of thing. It was a rather brutal method of making us cut back on our use of oil and petrol. Had the Government looked at this properly they would have seen that a selective system of rationing industry—which was prepared but not put into practice— would be carried out.
By his action he may have made us cut back on our use of oil and gas but he also cost many people their jobs. Industries were hit by this increase in the cost of oil and petrol and they cut back in turn by sacking people. The Government have not tackled this whole problem of energy and fuel conservation very wisely.
When we are drawing gas from Kinsale we must realise that we will interfere with the balance of nature on the sea bed there. We will do some damage. The oil which has lain there for a million years and has suddenly been taken out must upset the balance of nature. Have we thought of what to do to counteract that? It may be said that other countries have had this problem: what have they done to solve it?
Other countries are paying the penalty today for the mistakes they made when they began to reap the benefits of their mineral wealth. We can learn from their mistakes and ensure that we do not fall into the same traps. I would suggest to the Minister that he set up this committee. No doubt the men studying this whole question of mineral exploration are competent but we must ensure that there is an adequate number of people involved and that these are of the highest calibre possible. With the prospect of oil and gas resources our whole approach to life is changing. We are entering a new era. However, every step possible must be taken to ensure that this wealth from sea and land will not result in the despoiling of the sea and the countryside. The temptation is great for the Government to grab some of this oil or gas as soon as they possibly can. It is understandable that they should have that attitude but it would be very very wrong indeed if we are to play any part whatever in the despoilation of the environment so as to enrich ourselves with these resources. Partly because of a shortage of essential materials many of our people are unemployed but we have now an opportunity of planning for the future.
I do not know to what extent the Government examined this whole agreement with the companies concerned before deciding that we should enter into it. Perhaps they are having second thoughts on it now. The discussion began in November last. Since then things have been changing and soon we may see the oil rigs in the sea around us but have we built up a structure here which can control the exploration of these resources? Have we studied the best use to which they can be put? I shudder at the thought of any of the oil or gas being wasted. Whatever stocks are there are not inexhaustible and future generations would condemn us were we to squander these resources. Therefore in this serious business of exploration and development the onus rests with the Government to take every possible step to ensure that we do not waste any of the oil or gas. It is all right entering into these national agreements but once a shortage comes the 90-days' supply that we must maintain can be used very quickly. Once oil becomes scarce one has no guarantee that a country like ours would be given any great consideration.
People here have found to their cost that although they had made contracts for supply of oils in peace times under normal conditions they did not last very long when these became scarce. Therefore, I say to the Minister that before we begin operating this agreement the Minister should have a through examination carried out of all our resources to see what can we use apart from oil or gas, which are so very valuable. We must spare our resources as much as possible. When I was at school we were taught that there were no minerals under our soil. In recent years we have found that this is not so. While we look forward to the future with confidence we also have fears for the future. The Government have failed in their duty to build up a section of the Government to deal solely with the development of these and other resources. This criticism I make of the Government may be well justified because some other countries have admitted that they failed to plan properly, that they became so excited at the thought of having natural gas or oil, they went almost berserk in their rather brutal assault on these resources. They will pay in the future for their mistakes because nature will never allow a wastage of resources without hitting back in some way. We may find that in 20 or 30 years' time whoever is standing here discussing our energy problems may well look back and say that it was in this decade we found natural gas, that we got oil from our seas but that we missed a great chance of benefiting the country because we did not take the time to study how these resources should be used. We must have higher ambitions. From our natural oil resources we may get enough petrol for our car but much more can be done with oil. The Government can achieve a twofold purpose if, even at this late hour, they study what can be done to develop our existing resources and to develop the potential of our mineral resources. They can make us almost self-sufficient. They can provide employment by utilising our own resources. As has been suggested, the refuse from our streets can be used to generate electricity and therefore this would result in a reduction of oil imports. We should be able to dispose of refuse by turning it into the production of electricity.
I would suggest to the Minister that he ask this committee to examine this possibility. Experiments were carried out at Ringsend many years ago with the generation of electricity from refuse. The point was made that it was uneconomic, but it is not uneconomic. Many people today are finding out that the use of electricity is uneconomic for the pursestrings and they cannot afford it.
I suggest to the Minister that he can do a very good job in the development of our resources, but his own Department must prepare the ground for the building up of a proper organisation for the development of energy and ensure that the resources will not be wasted.