asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries when the outstanding payments on cattle feed vouchers will be made.
12.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Cattle Feed Vouchers.
11.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries when he proposes to make payment to merchants in respect of vouchers they have submitted under the cattle feed voucher scheme.
13.
Mr. Kitt
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries when he proposes to pay a merchant in County Galway (name supplied) for claims submitted under the cattle feed voucher scheme.
14.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries the amount of money still due to traders who applied to his Department or to the Irish Fresh Meat Exporters Society Ltd. for encashment of cattle feed vouchers; and when this money is likely to be paid.
15.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if his Department will pay on foot of cattle feed vouchers held by farmers and millers.
16.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if his Department intends to pay merchants and co-operatives in respect of all eligible fodder voucher dockets on which feeding stuff was supplied to farmers; and if he is aware of the uneasiness felt in the country over this matter.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 11 to 16 inclusive together.
The cattle feed vouchers were provided by the Irish Fresh Meat Exporters Society Ltd. My Department co-operated by having the vouchers distributed to eligible applicants through the local Farm Development Service (Land Project) offices. As stated on the vouchers, they were returnable by the feed suppliers to the society for encashment.
The vouchers were financed first by a contribution by beef export factories to their society's fund from intervention beef payments to the factories, the fund being later supplemented by an Exchequer advance against the temporary withdrawal of a VAT credit payable to meat factories and other registered cattle purchasers so that the cost should be met in full by the cattle and beef industry.
The society received more than enough money to pay all genuine vouchers issued. Pending Garda investigations into a fraud in relation to forged vouchers encashed by the society, my Department would not be justified in advancing further money out of public funds for the discharge of the society's remaining liabilities of about £200,000 for genuine vouchers. The society has been informed that appropriate consideration can be given to its position vis-á-vis my Department when the outcome of the Garda investigations becomes known. Encashment of the outstanding genuine vouchers is, therefore, the liability of the society. My Department has informed the society that it should now arrange, as was done at the commencement of the fund, to raise money from its members or from such other sources as are available to meet the outstanding claims; and that my Department would be prepared to give their co-operation if the society and its members should wish to contribute this by means of a deduction, as previously, from the moneys payable to factories for intervention beef.
I am sure the Minister knows that there are thousands sold in the west to merchants and cooperatives——
Yes, that is so.
Am I to take it from the Minister that he is not accepting liability at all even though it was a Departmental scheme? I understand what the Minister said is correct about the mechanism of the scheme. But it was a Departmental scheme and merchants honoured these dockets because they understood they could rely on the credibility of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, which is at stake at present. Never again will merchants supply anything under a Departmental scheme if these are not honoured. Would the Minister state that, when everything is over, they will be honoured by somebody? It is as simple as that.
I am surprised, first of all, to hear Deputy Callanan emphatically describe this as a Departmental scheme because, on a previous occasion, I heard him describe it emphatically as a fresh meat exporters' scheme. It suits him on this occasion to take this view when, in fact, the moneys have come entirely from the industry the vouchers are headed "Irish Fresh Meat Exporters' Society Limited" and the dockets for encashment go back to them. The one thing the Department did was to supply the people to distribute the vouchers for the Irish Fresh Meat Exporters and I am legally advised that the Department have no responsibility in the world for the payment.
Are there Exchequer moneys involved here?
No.
Will the Minister say whether it was he or his Department who devised the scheme? Will he admit that the abuses to which it was subject arose directly out of the loose manner in which it was devised and supervised?
That is not a criticism of the Department. It is a criticism of the Irish fresh meat exporters, if it is a criticism of anybody. We simply induce them to contribute this money for such a relief scheme. Everybody in the House will agree that this was a satisfactory scheme.
Who devised the scheme?
And it was a rescue operation which was valued very much by the people concerned, and worked very well except that the Irish Fresh Meat Exporters' Society paid on fraudulent vouchers.
Who devised the scheme?
The Department did but they did not operate the scheme.
And left it open to abuse.
It was perfectly devised.
Am I correct in assuming that a portion of the financing of this scheme came from the Exchequer in respect of VAT contributions which would otherwise have been credited to the fresh meat exporters?
That is so.
To that extent at least is it not true that the Exchequer was involved in the financing of it? As Deputy Brennan has established, the scheme was devised by the Department. This being so, would the Minister accept in view of the hardship being created for many people who cannot afford it that he ought to ensure payment of the outstanding genuine vouchers without prejudice to his rights in regard to either the society involved or anybody else who may be involved and pursue his remedy afterwards?
Naturally, I have sought legal advice on this because I am concerned about the merchants who have been left short of money as a result of what has happened. I am proceeding exactly along the lines of the advice I have been given.
I accept, of course, that that is the advice the Minister is getting. Could I ask the Minister to pursue the question as to whether an approach on the lines suggested in my question would not also be consonant with the legal position the Minister must maintain?
Unlike the Deputy, I have no legal training and I can only take the legal advice I get.
The Minister may be advised to take a certain course but that does not mean he cannot take another course.
Of course, I could.
Might I ask the Minister how long the Garda fraud squad are investigating these alleged fraudulent practices and, secondly, give an estimated amount of the money involved? May I ask if it is correct that there is, allegedly, £½ million involved?
No, there is not £½ million.
May I ask how much, allegedly, is involved?
Approximately £300,000.
The Minister said that I said the Department paid no money. The Minister himself said in the budget that he was loaning moneys at that time and he intended to get them back. The very fact that he loaned money——
Could we have a question, please, Deputy?
I am merely trying to answer the Minister and get the matter straightened out. The Minister went to town on it at that time inferring that to keep the scheme going when they were not paying he was going to come in with a rescue operation. The people said: "It is all right, the Minister is behind this"——
I am anxious to help the Deputy to elicit information but I cannot condone speech making at Question Time.
How is it that merchants who want the dockets back—I do not agree that they should prosecute the farmers but they are going to do so—cannot get them? In fairness the whole thing is terrible as far as the merchants are concerned.
All I can say is that if I went to town the Deputy went to many towns on this thing.
I did not go to town. I told the truth with regard to it.
I am concerned to see these people paid but I am legally advised that I have no responsibility to pay them.
Question No. 17.
That does not preclude the Minister taking the initiative.
Next Question.
There are eight questions involved here.
And quite a number of supplementary questions as well.
Will the Minister state now that somebody will honour the eligible dockets? All I want to know is that somebody will honour them.
When the Garda fraud squad catches them.
If I get the answer that they will be honoured, I shall not raise the issue of the Garda investigations at all.
I would hope and expect that they will be honoured but I have a feeling that this will have to be settled in court.
But they will be honoured at some stage?
Probably the responsibility will have to be established in court.