Deputy O'Malley gave notice of intention to raise on the Adjournment the matter of making redundant 450 workers on Friday next in Limerick.
Adjournment Debate. - Golden Vale Creameries Redundancies.
This is a matter of enormous importance in three counties, and particularly in the city of Limerick, where the loss of jobs will be the most serious of all. The history is that it was proposed at the end of 1972 that the Lansdowne factory, then owned by the Dairy Disposal Company, a State body, would be retained and that the necessary intake of milk to make it viable and competitive in the EEC——
On a point of order, matters on the Adjournment should be of national and not of local importance.
That is not a point of order. The Chair deprecates the Deputy's intrusion on a matter to which a time limit applies.
Deputy O'Malley is trying to make political——
Would Deputy Byrne please desist?
It was decided to build, in conjunction with Lansdowne at Limerick, a new milk powder plant in Cratloe, County Clare, some seven or eight miles away. The two together would constitute a unit which would be viable in terms of milk usage under EEC conditions, which were to come into effect the following year. That proposal was approved by the then Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, Deputy J. Gibbons. There was almost unanimous agreement on that proposal. The workers in the various places were agreed on it and the great majority of farmers, apart from a small number of larger farmers in part of County Clare, also agreed.
Unfortunately, the Government changed in March, 1973. Pressures were brought on the present Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries which caused him to change the decision of his predecessor, to scrap the Cratloe milk plant and to arrive at the situation where the Lansdowne plant was no longer viable on its own. The Dairy Disposal Board had no option but to dispose of it to one or other of the very large creamery conglomerates in Munster. The choice at the time was between Ballyclough, Mitchelstown or Golden Vale. Golden Vale was the favoured one and they won the bidding, in so far as there was any bidding. They took over the Lansdowne factory. The result in terms of manpower in the Lansdowne factory at Limerick is that in the year 1972—here I quote from figures supplied to me and other Deputies for the region by the Irish Transport and General Workers Union—there were 532 people employed in the Lansdowne factory under the Dairy Disposal Board. Next week, after these redundancies go through, as I assume they will unless the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries moves in to stop it happening, there will be approximately 90 people working in Lansdowne, an enormous decrease in a very short time. It is proposed to make 450 people in the entire Golden Vale complex redundant.
It should be borne in mind that this is only part of the problem of the actual redundancies, because it has been the policy of the Golden Vale management over the past 12 months or so to encourage as much as they can what are described as voluntary redundancies among their staff. On top of those who are now going to have to go in Lansdowne on Friday next, a large number of men were encouraged by financial inducements to retire or resign voluntarily over the last 12 months. The loss of jobs therefore in Lansdowne alone, between this current redundancy and the so-called voluntary retirements over the last 12 months, is approaching, but not quite, 300.
I want to deal primarily with the position in Limerick city. My colleagues, Deputies Barrett and Daly, will deal with the situation that arises in Clare. Limerick city has been a disaster area for employment over the past two years. I received in the House yesterday a written reply from the Taoiseach of the number of unemployed in Limerick city at the moment. The latest available figure for the 2nd January, 1976, is 4,305 people unemployed.
(Interruptions.)
Order.
This is in a city with a population of approximately 60,000, of whom a good deal less than half would be people who were in employment. Therefore, the proportion of people unemployed in Limerick city is extraordinarily high. There has been an enormous increase in unemployment. At the beginning of January, 1974, the number of unemployed in Limerick was only 2,226, which is very slightly over 50 per cent of what it is at present. The number of unemployed in Limerick city and county is 7,480, or was, at least, in April of last year. I have not a more up-to-date figure. It is probably about the same or slightly more.
I have tried in the very limited time at my disposal to show in some way the shocking effect these redundancies will have in Lansdowne at a time when other traditional factories such as Ranks are about to have very heavy redundancies, when two very large clothing factories over a century old have both closed in the last 12 months or so, and when a whole series of other factories in Limerick and in Shannon have either large numbers of redundancies or have closed altogether over the past 18 months or so. Limerick city cannot afford the closing of this one now, or the virtual closing, which is what these redundancies will amount to.
To give an example, Sir, in County Limerick, in the rural area, there is the village of Herbertstown which had a thriving co-operative. It was taken over not in the Dairy Disposal takeover but at an earlier stage by Golden Vale. There were 16 employees there up to this week and 12 of them are being let go. Herbertstown creamery, which was the focal point of that village and the only industry in that village, now becomes merely a small depot with four people and possibly will not even have four in a year or so. The whole social structure in that village—and it is typical of many others that are being affected similarly—will be destroyed by this proposal of Golden Vale.
At the time it was proposed that Golden Vale should take over the Dairy Disposal interests in Limerick and Clare, I, for one, opposed it because I said I was afraid that the interests of the workers would not be looked after and that hundreds of workers would be gone within a couple of years. In fairness, I was supported at that time by Deputy Coughlan.
You were not.
I was.
(Interruptions.)
Order.
Unfortunately there was not unanimity on the matter because the Minister for the Gaeltacht had a very different view and was very anxious that Golden Vale would come in. He unfortunately persuaded his colleague, the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, to accede to that view. Because there were fears expressed very strongly about the future of the workers in Lansdowne and in the other smaller creameries in Limerick and Clare, strong representations were made by the union at the time, or the various unions, to the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, who replied in writing on three occasions —I saw two of the letters—on each occasion assuring the unions and the employees that their jobs would be safe if Golden Vale took over. They were given a written guarantee by a Minister of State. As far as the ordinary worker in Ireland is concerned, there is no better guarantee that he can get than a written guarantee repeated by a Minister of State that his job is going to be safe. Here we are, two-and-a-quarter years later, and on Monday morning next 90 people will go to work in Lansdowne where there were 532 only three years ago.
I think, Sir, that that is a deplorable situation. While the Minister for Agriculture may now argue about the factors that have caused it, or the financial difficulties of Golden Vale and so on and that he cannot do anything about it, he has a strict moral obligation, if not a legal one—I think the unions are taking advice on this matter—to ensure the continuity of employment for all these people who are now being put out on the road. This is happening in a city where there is the most appalling unemployment and where factory after factory has closed down over the last 18 months or two years.
The Minister for Agriculture will tell us that he gave that guarantee in good faith, and I do not doubt it, but I call on him tonight to honour it. For goodness sake, do not condemn Limerick city and the rural areas around it for the fact that their biggest industry is going to be the employment exchange. All the progress that was made in the Limerick/Shannon area in recent years will be set at nought if huge numbers of people are going to face what will amount to an almost permanent period on unemployment benefit or unemployment assistance of one kind or another.
I appeal to the Minister, even at this, the eleventh hour, to stop these redundancies, to make Golden Vale honour their pledge and to undo the harm that has been done by the unfortunate fact that Golden Vale were allowed to take over the Dairy Disposal Board.
I do not want to take up any more time because Deputies Barrett and Daly want to speak about this matter and I give way to them for that reason.
Deputy O'Malley has mentioned the Cratloe proposal. It had gone much further than just a proposal. When we left office not only had the site for this milk plant been secured but planning permission had been granted and the milk supply would have come from east Limerick and County Clare and would have totalled over 60 million gallons. Undoubtedly it would have been a viable proposition. This had been sanctioned by Deputy Gibbons, as Minister for Agriculture, and it was set aside by the present Minister. Whether the blame is to be taken collectively or not, the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries undoubtedly had advice from his colleague, the Minister for the Gaeltacht. As well as the Minister for the Gaeltacht, he had a minority lobby from the centre of Clare who were opposing Cratloe on the basis that it was not in the centre of County Clare. He also had the IAOS lobbying against it. After Cratloe had been set aside, the Clare farmers were asked to vote for or against Golden Vale. They got no other choice. They had no option but to vote for Golden Vale at that time. The true facts were not put before them. Nobody bothered to tell the Clare milk suppliers at that time that Golden Vale was in excess of £10 million in debt before they joined Golden Vale. The fact that they were £10 million in debt means that the Clare milk suppliers are now obliged, since they left the Dairy Disposal Board to join Golden Vale, to pay 10 per cent of that £10 million by way of interest which they were not involved in incurring one way or the other. They supply a third of the milk to Golden Vale and they must now pay a third of £1 million in interest on a debt which they did not incur or had no part in at all.
The Minister will remember that, when we were speaking to him with the union representatives a few months ago, the Golden Vale executives admitted that the haulage of milk from Clare to Golden Vale was costing more than £300,000. Now that £300,000 would have meant slightly over a third of the cost of the Cratloe plant. It was condemned by some people because it was not in the centre of the county. Now the milk is passing by Lansdowne to Golden Vale at a cost of £300,000. As Deputy O'Malley says, a commitment was made by the Minister to the employees that there would be no redundancies because of this takeover. There are redundancies now, 450, a large number of which are in County Clare. The Clare Milk Suppliers are subjected to heavy interest payments, an insecure future for their milk and the employees have to walk out. They have no choice because they are being made redundant. Surely the Minister cannot say he has no responsibility in this matter.
The Minister might have no responsibility for the inner workings of Golden Vale but he had a responsibility in 1974 when he allowed the Clare Milk Suppliers, the Clare workers and Lansdowne workers to join Golden Vale. They were supplying the Dairy Disposal Company, a State company, at that time, which came under the jurisdiction of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries. He had a duty to find out what the facts were before the Clare Milk Suppliers and the Clare creamery workers were allowed to become part of a co-operative which has recently admitted to have been over £10 million in debt at that time. The Clare farmers and workers had no way of finding out the position.
Since 1930 they were part of the Dairy Disposal Company, the central creamery areas of Ennis, Kilrush, Ennistymon and Scariff and it is not correct to say that the Clare farmers could not make up their minds. A big majority of the milk suppliers in Clare are members of the ICMSA. This farming body backed the Cratloe proposal. There was a small lobby working against Cratloe but, unfortunately, the Minister listened to them, among whom I regret to say was his colleague, the Minister for the Gaeltacht, to the detriment of the Clare Milk Suppliers and the Clare workers.
I am deeply concerned about this issue. I believe it will have a very serious effect on employment in west Clare where they are already very severely hit by the unemployment situation, which is similar to Limerick. Industries are closing down and people are losing jobs in long established industries. This, above all, has been the main industrial concern in west Clare. In County Clare there are 6,000 farmers with an average of ten to 11 cows per farmer supplying milk to creameries. It is disastrous to find that jobs in this industry are in jeopardy and are expected to be lost next Friday. This will have to be examined very closely by the Minister to see what can be done about it. It is a very serious problem for the people who have been engaged in butter production especially in creameries in Kilrush and Ennistymon and who have won awards year after year for the quality of the butter they produce and also for the quality of the other produce which comes from that area.
I believe it is a serious problem not only for the workers employed in the creameries but also for the farmers because there will be a worse service for them. There will be one man creameries run by the managers. The farmers will not be able to get the facilities which they had to purchase manures and feedingstuffs. It will not only be serious for the employees who are directly involved but for the farmers who will get a worse service.
May I have one minute?
I must call on the Minister to reply.
If the advice that was given was taken, we would not have the closure we have today.
I am obliged to call the Minister. The Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries.
It should never have happened.
The Deputy is eroding the time allowed to the Minister for his reply.
The first thing I want to say is that there is no public representative worth his salt, no matter which side of the House he finds himself on, who wants to see people losing their jobs. In this particular case I sincerely regret the loss of jobs involved. The case has not been fairly put before the House. I intend to put it as fairly and as clearly as I can. The first thing that was said by Deputy O'Malley is that the purchase of this was given to the favoured one, that Golden Vale were the favoured group. That is a complete distortion of the facts. The Limerick Federation were given the first option. They were given a reduction in the price to enable them to move in and take over because they had an important part of the supply, which none of us could guarantee would go to any particular point at any particular time.
Next came Mitchelstown. They had their go. They were in the running. It is not right to say that there was no choice open to the farmers in Clare except to either accept or reject Golden Vale. Mitchelstown did their bit among the farmers and then pulled out. In the finish they decided where they wanted to sell their milk. Deputy O'Malley said that it was a concensus decision made by the previous Minister that this plant would be set up in Cratloe. That is not the position I found when I came into office. I felt that it was the right of the producers to decide what they wanted. I had the Clare producers and the Limerick producers in my office no fewer than three times trying to get them to make up their minds what they wanted. It is right to say that there was absolute disagreement between the Clare farmers and they could not make up their minds what they wanted. They eventually went back and decided they would go to Golden Vale.
Cratloe was gone at that stage.
Cratloe was not gone at that stage. It was still an open question. We still held Cratloe farm which was purchased by my predecessor in office. That was an open question at that time. A proportion of the Clare farmers certainly did not want Cratloe.
A very small proportion.
A large proportion of them wanted a completely new set up in another part of Clare but that is all history.
They could have been allowed to vote between Golden Vale and Cratloe.
Order, the Minister's time is very limited.
I am being held responsible for 450 redundancies. The fact of the matter is that in Clare and Limerick the number of redundancies totals 139 and the balance arises completely outside the area of Clare and Limerick.
How many have there been in the last twelve months?
The Minister must be allowed to make his speech in his own way without interruption.
I want to quote, if I may, from a statement which appeared in the Irish Press headed: “Denial on Co-Op Redundancy”. It states:
A report that 450 people are to be sacked this week in North Munster by Golden Vale Co-Op. was denied yesterday by Mr. Seamus B. Kelly, National Group Secretary, Irish Transport and General Workers Union. Discussions with the management were proceeding and until an agreement was concluded "all avenues will be explored to ensure retention of jobs and there will be no enforced redundancies". Individuals would be free to become voluntarily redundant in accordance with the National Wage Agreement and union management agreement."
One mistake is made.
Order. The Minister without interruption.
This appeared in the Irish Press. It is reinforced by what we have heard from Golden Vale itself——
Clerical workers.
——that this is so. One point I want to make clear is that it was not just my own policy to sell the Dairy Disposal Company's properties to co-operative interests. It was the policy of the previous Government, and it has been the policy for some time. The properties of the company have been disposed of in this way: Tipperary was disposed of to Tipperary Co-op in 1971; Coachford and Terelton to Ballyclough Co-op in 1972; Knocklong to Mitchelstown Co-op in 1972; Kerry to Kerry Co-op in 1974; Limerick and Clare to Golden Vale Co-op in 1974; Aughadown to Drinagh Co-op in 1975; Dunbar St to North Cork Co-op in 1975.
What I am illustrating by giving these details is that it was established policy of both the last Government and the present Government to sell the Dairy Disposal Company's properties to co-operative societies. In each case a condition of sale was that staff would be taken over on terms no less favourable than those appertaining prior to the transfer. Prior to the transfer of the Limerick and Clare properties, the Golden Vale employees concerned were given a guarantee of continued employment. Deputy O'Malley is quite correct in that. The implementing clause of that guarantee which appeared in the sale agreement was as follows:
The Purchasing Society shall take over and employ the managers and the other employees set out in the fifth schedule hereto at present employed by the first/second/ and in all respects and on the like terms as they are employed by the first and second vendors on the date prior to the possession date and shall not terminate their employment save on proper cause.
On 6th November last I met representatives of the workers employed by Golden Vale to discuss the effect on the workers of the redundancies proposed by the society. Local public representatives, including Deputy O'Malley, attended this meeting. Due to the absence of representatives of the Golden Vale management, who would be the only people in a position to answer some of the questions which were posed. I agreed to arrange a further meeting at which Golden Vale management would be present.
This meeting took place on the 20th November, and it was attended by public representatives, again including Deputy O'Malley, union representatives and representatives of the Golden Vale management. The overall redundancy proposals were discussed at length and it was agreed that there would be direct talks between the management of Golden Vale and the union representatives to discuss all the problems involved with a view to seeking an acceptable solution, and the Golden Vale representatives agreed to withdraw the deadline date of the 14th January. I said that, should agreement not be reached by 14th January, arrangements could be made to reconvene a meeting.
On February 3rd Golden Vale informed the Department that the talks with the unions were still continuing and they made it clear that only those employees who voluntarily accepted the terms offered by the management would be made redundant on 13th February. Others would be kept on until agreement was reached with the unions. Golden Vale has informed the Department today that some 50 per cent of the proposed redundancies would become effective on Friday next. All these are accepting redundancy voluntarily subject to their receiving the benefit of any better conditions which the union may subsequently negotiate. The remaining 50 per cent will be made redundant when an agreement acceptable to all parties is concluded. Golden Vale also state that following representations they recommenced the manufacture of butter at Kilrush Creamery last Monday. Manufacture will not be continued after Friday next because so many of the staff are accepting redundancy voluntarily.
(Interruptions.)
They cannot get people to run the unit. A newspaper report that 450 people would be sacked by Golden Vale was denied as I have said, by Mr. Seamus Kelly, National Group Secretary of the Irish Transport and General Workers Union. These are the people representing the workers so that the whole position is completely distorted. Part of this act here tonight is in some way to hold the Minister for the Gaeltacht particularly responsible. This is Limerick politics at its worst, I am sorry to say.
I am obliged to point out to the Minister that the time allotted for this Adjournment Debate is now exhausted. The Minister might make his concluding remarks.
I am still very concerned that any redundancies should take place but it is ridiculous for Deputy O'Malley and the other Deputies opposite to suggest that Cratloe was the solution of the problem. The whole solution of the problem was to keep Limerick milk in Limerick and substantial amounts of that milk had started to go long before I came into office. Deputy O'Malley and his colleagues failed to keep the milk where it should be to maintain these people in employment.
The Dáil adjourned at 9.25 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 12th February, 1976.