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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 1 Jul 1976

Vol. 291 No. 15

Adjournment of Dáil: Motion (Resumed).

On Wednesday, 30th June, 1976, the following motion was moved by the Taoiseach:
That the Dáil on its rising this week do adjourn until Wednesday, 13th October, 1976.
Debate resumed on the following amendment:
To delete "13th October" and substitute "7th July".
—(Deputy J. Lynch.)

I am now obliged to call a speaker from the Opposition. I understand that Deputy Haughey will be sharing some of that time.

My colleague, Deputy Colley, has very kindly given me five minutes to conclude my remarks. When the debate was adjourned I was referring to the persistent, intensive propaganda campaign of the Coalition. I believe that we, in Fianna Fáil, will have a major task in restoring public morale, which has been demoralised through being subjected for over three years now to this cynical propaganda by the Coalition machine. We shall have to persuade the people that economic situations can be made amenable to political action. We shall have to establish the fact that, while economists can analyse economic problems, they cannot solve them and that something more is needed by way of an economic policy than simply extending pay-related benefits and exhorting workers to selfsacrifice.

To restore the Irish economy to a reasonable level of economic growth will be a fairly long process but not as long perhaps as some fear. The important thing is to start working towards the objective. Once we are on the way, once the machine starts to roll, people will get back their confidence. I believe the overriding national need at this time is for an Irish Government to demonstrate the political will to conquer the difficulties, to get on top of the situation, to set out a programme of activity designed to achieve that end—in short, to produce an acceptable, viable, national economic development plan.

No one can seriously deny that the fortunes of Ireland today are at their lowest ebb in this century. In the words of Napper Tandy: "She is truly a most distressful country". Our economy has ground to a halt, our young people are left without hope, our agriculture and industry have been disrupted, our dreams of unity betrayed. The Government have failed utterly. Instead of reform they have given us repression, instead of jobs they have given us dole, instead of decisions they have given us divisive debate, in place of trusted leadership they have given us deception and demagoguery. Let the Government look honestly and objectively at their record to date and at the state of the nation today. If they can do that and still claim they are entitled to the confidence of the people and of this House, that they can close down the Dáil now and depart for a long, tranquil holiday, they are capable of self-deception to an extent that amounts, in my view, to a psychiatric condition.

The occasion of the adjournment debate can, and indeed, should be availed of to consider the performance of the Government generally. Of course, any consideration of the performance of the Government automatically focuses attention on the economy because of the disastrous situation in which we find ourselves and the grossly incompetent manner in which the economy has been handled by the Government. Before coming to that matter there are a few observations I should like to make very briefly on some other aspects of the Government's performance.

I suppose one should start with the Taoiseach. What I want to say about the Taoiseach was said earlier today by Deputy Haughey, which is—it is a serious charge and is fully substantiated—that the Taoiseach misled the country yesterday in regard to the economic situation of the country. He did so knowing what the facts were, knowing what would be and was contained in the report of the ESRI, a body whose reports have been frequently quoted with approval by members of the Government. He did not even attempt to anticipate the situation by trying to disprove the report of the ESRI which, of course, he could not do.

It is an extremely serious position when the Taoiseach sets out to mislead the people of the country in regard to the economic situation. It is particularly serious when the economic situation is as disastrous as it is now, when what is required above all is that every man, woman and child should understand how serious the problem is and what has to be done to tackle it. The Tánaiste, quite apart from his inactivity—I will not put it any higher than that—in his Department has distinguished himself by calling on a number of occasions for the production of a plan. We are still waiting to know on whom he was calling. As I have said on a previous occasion, some people are beginning to suspect that he was calling on Fianna Fáil because it is quite clear that calling on his colleagues in the Government will mean that his call is falling on deaf ears.

The Minister for Justice yesterday tried to tell us that the situation is improving in regard to serious crime when he knows, as indeed does practically everybody else, that in general the situation has greatly disimproved; but in areas like Dublin city the position is becoming critical and armed robberies, muggings and attacks on old people and children are getting out of hand. I suggest it is no answer for the Minister for Justice to quote comparative figures with cities like Birmingham. Apart from the fact that the figures do not analyse the seriousness of the crimes concerned the comparison must be with the situation in Dublin as it was when the present Minister for Justice took over as Minister. That is the fair comparision. The fact that the Minister, having told us in the House a month ago that he did not intend to increase recruitment to the Garda until he got a management consultant's report and was vague as to when that would come to hand and then announced that he was increasing recruitment by 500 per cent is itself indicative of the fact that, if he does not know what the position is, some of his colleagues do and persuaded or compelled him to make this announcement.

Of course the announcement, like many an announcement of this Government, does not mean what it says or appears to say, because it is quite clear that 500 gardaí will not be recruited and put on the beat in the remainder of this year. However, at least it is an acknowledgement of the seriousness of the situation that now obtains, a situation which is a direct result of the neglect by this so-called, self-styled law and order Government, neglect of their primary and basic duty to preserve law and order. I say that, not only because this Government seem to think that law and order and their enforcement apply only to dealing with subversion but also because as indicated in a reply to a parliamentary question approximately a month ago, it emerged that each year since 1972 the number of gardaí recruited has fallen. It went down in 1973, down further in 1974 and further again in 1975; and this year, subject to the announcement recently made, it was going down even further. That, of course, is a gross neglect of their duty by this Government in the primary area of responsibility of any Government, the maintenance of law and order.

The Minister for Labour can best be described as a non-Minister. Without going into any details of the recent or more distant inactivity of the Minister, it is now clear, even to his own colleagues, that the Minister for Labour, whatever duties he thinks he is discharging, is not discharging the duties of the Minister for Labour.

Aire na Gaeltachta has going for him a very effective public relations exercise. Mark you, in Opposition he had going for him a very effective public relations exercise too, and I say "for him" because it is primarily directed at the glorification of the individual personally and not at the glorification of his colleagues. It is I suppose of interest to know that at last even that efficient public relations machine is falling down because it cannot continue to sell a proposition that has no basis because there is no performance by Aire na Gaeltachta and so he is now becoming widely known as Aire na Geallúntaí.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs has engaged in some frenetic activity, particularly within the EEC, and one recalls his whirlwind tours of the EEC capitals in connection with the regional development fund and other matters. One looks at what is happening and finds that the regional development fund of the EEC, which is of vital importance to this country, is a miserable and unacceptable excuse for a policy by the EEC in this vital area. In fact the EEC itself as a body is becoming paralysed and there is little if any indication of effective action by the Minister for Foreign Affairs to try to cure this paralysis, an area in which the Minister would have had us believe that he was not alone an expert but an influential expert. We have little sign of either his influence or expertise when we look at the present situation in the EEC.

In regard to the situation in Northern Ireland, in which the Minister for Foreign Affairs has a responsibility, the Leader of this party dealt with that situation yesterday. All I want to do in that respect is point out once more that the basic attitude of this Coalition Government was that which was spelt out by the Taoiseach approximately a year ago, perhaps a little more, in a speech in Blackrock when he said that the matter should be left to the two communities in the North. I want to make it quite clear that as far as we are concerned we do not accept that proposition. Of course agreement between the two communities is necessary, but to leave it to the two communities is simply an abdication of responsibility. It is a flying in the face of history, which shows that one of those communities is not prepared to come to any reasonable arrangement safeguarding its own interests unless it is induced to do so by the surrounding circumstances. A withdrawal by the Government in Dublin and an abdication by the Government in London of their responsibilities is simply a recipe for a repetition of all that has happened in the past in Northern Ireland. The Fianna Fáil Government sought very hard, and successfully eventually, to establish the right of the Irish Government to be involved and to have a major say in the developments which have to take place in regard to Northern Ireland. This Government have no right to throw away that hard-fought right established with difficulty, nor have they any right to allow the British Government to abdicate their share of major responsibility in this matter.

There are many other aspects of the lack of performance of this Government on which one could dwell, but there is not time in this debate to do so, unfortunately, and I do not intend to do so. However, I want to come to the area of greatest failure and greatest concern and that is the appalling situation of our economy today. The report of the ESRI published today merely confirms what we on this side have been saying consistently, and especially what we have said in regard to the budget produced in January of this year. It will be seen, if one consults the records, that on that occasion we said that inflation this year was likely to be very close to 20 per cent and that was a calculation based on the consequences of the budget introduced in January. We also said that there would be practically no growth this year. There has been vague talk about an upturn in our economy. It is pretty clear that, apart from one or two areas of exception, that alleged upturn is simply a technical adjustment in the form of restocking. Indeed the situation cannot be otherwise as long as the present excuses for policies are pursued by the Government.

The worst feature of the Government's performance in regard to the January budget is that it was a repeat of what it did in January, 1975—the very mistakes made in January, 1975, which were pointed out to the Government and which they acknowledged belatedly in June by adopting the policies we had been urging on them the previous autumn by introducing certain subsidies and reducing VAT rates on certain commodities—were repeated, but on a bigger scale, last January with even more disastrous consequences. The direct results of that approach has been deliberately to fuel inflation. This, of course, leads to claims for increased pay.

Listening to the Taoiseach and members of the Government talking about the necessity for a pay pause, as they call it, one would think that failure to agree to that was clear evidence of a lack of patriotism on the part of workers and employers and that the Government had no responsibility in the matter, a Government which for the second year in succession deliberately increased the cost of living by direct action in the budget. Of course these increased pay claims arise directly from the Government's own decision and mistakes and it means, in turn, more Irish business becoming uncompetitive and more and more people losing their jobs, more and more demands being made on the Exchequer on foot of social welfare and less and less money becoming available to the Exchequer to meet these demands.

There is nothing very profound or difficult in this. There is nothing new in it. We have been pointing it out to the Government time after time, but they go on repeating their mistakes as though there is no other course open to them. Indeed they try to tell us they are handling the situation extremely well having regard to the difficulties of world recession and increased energy prices.

This has gone on for too long. It is cant, propaganda. There is no truth in it, and people are beginning to see through this bluff of the Coalition. I made reference previously to some scientific evidence of the truth or falsity of these allegations and I make no apology for referring again to it because it is vitally important that our people should know just how false is the proposition that the Government have handled the situation well.

I refer to an article in Review No. 1, 1976, published by the CII, by Dr. Brendan Menton, up to recently a senior economic adviser in the Department of Finance. It is a scientific measurement of Governments faced with the consequences of the oil crisis and the subsequent world recession, Governments whose economies were in most cases more vulnerable than ours to the difficulties that have arisen. It analyses the performance of the Governments of 20 OECD member countries under various headings. What emerges is that this Government come out bottom of the list of 20 under every heading and, in particular, in regard to unemployment and inflation.

That is a scientific measurement of the performance of this Government in the face of acknowledged difficulties affecting other Governments. It is available and it would be worth while if people studied it. Let us get rid of the nonsense that the Government cannot help what has happened. Nobody in Fianna Fáil has suggested that there were not serious international difficulties affecting the economy. What we have said is that this Government have been incompetent and inept in their handling of those difficulties and this contention is now borne out and scientifically established in the short article I have referred to.

One can be forgiven for concluding that during the last few years, when faced with these acknowledged difficulties, the Government, instead of concentrating on solutions to them, have been preoccupied with methods of raising more taxes and new taxes, and that they have totally ignored their responsibilities in the management of the economy. Of course the primary responsibility in this area rests on the Minister for Finance. In my view we have never had a Minister for Finance who was so totally unaware of his responsibilities in the field of the management of the economy. I am saying that out of kindness to him, because I am assuming he was unaware of his responsibilities, not that he was aware of them and ignored them. If he were aware of them his performance would virtually amount to treason. But assuming he was unaware of them, one cannot give him a fool's pardon, because it is inexcusable that he, and his colleagues who were equally responsible, thought it better that in the area of fiscal administration and control that the concentration should be on the raising of more taxes and on different ways of raising tax. As the economy contracted that was the preoccupation of this Government, and of course we are reaping the harvest of that incompetent and inept approach today.

The two areas in which the incompetence of the Government come through most clearly are in the fields of prices and employment. We find in regard to prices that in the first quarter of this year for which we have figures there was an increase of 7.3 per cent in the CPI and in the next period it was 6.2 per cent. Allowing for the cumulative effect, that is approximately 14 per cent in the six months which, again allowing for the cumulative effect, is getting close to a 30 per cent inflation at an annual rate, this at a time when our competitors are getting their inflation down to single figures and when the Taoiseach tells us that unemployment and inflation are the priority areas of Government policy and attention.

I dread to think what might have happened if they were not the priority areas, considering what is happening at this time when we have had repeated allegations from the Government benches that these are their priority areas. At the same time, and as a direct consequence, unemployment has soared and will get worse. Little, if any, effective action has been taken by this Government to solve the unemployment problem.

We have never suggested—nor do I suggest now—that this is a problem which is easy of solution. We say it should be tackled as vigorously as possible. There are, and have been, steps open to the Government all the time to tackle the unemployment problem but they have not taken any of these steps. I do not say there is a single magic wand which Fianna Fáil or the Government can wave to solve these problems. I do say that there is an overall package which can be applied and which will improve the position. I say "an overall package" because clearly what is involved here is complex. There is an interaction between prices, pay, jobs, borrowing by the Government and how capital is used. All this involves an economic plan.

Not that one can guarantee at this time of uncertainty to adhere absolutely to all aspects of it, but in order to ensure that there is an overall view of the use of our resources and that they are used to the most effective purpose, we on this side of the House, although it is not our duty to do so, have practically completed working out an economic plan for the four years 1977-1980. The major factors that must be involved in any vigorous approach to tackling our economic problems have to be the reduction of taxes which, whether one is at the top or the bottom of the salary scale, operate to prevent people from working hard. There is not alone no inducement but there is an active disincentive to work hard. That must be tackled. We have to direct our investment, in particular our capital investment, to the creation of jobs and to the increasing of productivity, in order to reduce our unit wage costs. We have to have a crash programme of employment for young people.

It is alleged that the Government have not the money to do this. Where will they get the money? At the moment they are running an enormous deficit on the current budget. I would remind anybody who takes that line that if this problem is tackled intelligently—and we have demonstrated this —it can be done. In our last budget in 1972 we deliberately budgeted for a deficit, the first time this was ever done. This was not just the sum that was left when we applied all the tax we could as against all the money we had to pay out. This was calculated. We imposed no new tax, reduced income tax, increased social welfare, provided incentives for development in the industrial and agricultural fields, and, as a result, we ended up with growth which produced buoyancy in the revenue and, for practical purposes balanced the budget.

The only place this or any other Government will get money to tackle our problems is from growth in the economy. The policies pursued by this Government have been consistently directed against growth, whatever may have been said. At that time, we told them they were going to hinder growth and they have done so.

A vital part of any overall package designed to deal with our economic growth problems must be the question of pay. It is quite clear that the Government must play an active role in the negotiation of national pay agreements, far more active than has been played heretofore. We must not lose sight of the fact that what really counts in pay negotiations is the workers' actual take home pay and its real value. It follows from that that it is useless for the Government to come here imposing massive increases in indirect taxes across the board and ignoring the consequences of that on take home pay.

The action of the British Government in this field should be of some interest to this Government. Apart from that aspect, I suggest that the most serious consequences in the field of pay arising from this Government's performance has been that it now looks, unfortunately, as though we will have no national pay agreement. When one thinks of the White Paper issued by the Government in regard to the social partners and the exortations we got from the Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance and other Ministers, and their virtual saying that the Government were going to apply statutory controls if it was necessary, then coming back from the brink, and then look at the shambles in which we are today, one despairs of any hope for the future of our economy while this Government remain in office.

It is obvious that Fine Gael and Labour cannot agree on this as on many other areas. In another context recently I quoted the present Minister for Industry and Commerce saying that he had objection, in principle, to any interference by the Government with free collective bargaining. I find that neither the Minister for Industry and Commerce nor any of his colleagues seem to have found any great difficulty in accommodating his principles with the enactment of legislation which was controlling, by statute, the pay of bank officials, nor had they difficulties with the recent Bill which not alone was controlling the pay of bank officials by tying it to the national agreement, but which was actually imposing a statutory pay freeze. That did not present any difficulty, apparently.

In my view the Minister for Industry and Commerce and his colleagues from either the Labour Party or the Fine Gael Party have a responsibility as Members of the Government in this area. If they cannot deliver a voluntary agreement as we did, albeit by the introduction of legislation, on the present course they are following and on the statement of the Minister for Labour, they have left themselves no alternative but a complete abdication of responsibility in this field.

It is no good for the Minister for Industry and Commerce or anybody else to tell us about his objections in principle if what he is really saying is that the Government are abdicating all responsibility in the field of pay. If that is the message we are getting, and there is no other message available, it should be clearly understood that every time the Taoiseach and his colleagues tell about the grave damage which is being done and will be done to our economy by uncontrolled income increases, in effect they are saying: "We are responsible for this because we are abdicating responsibility for trying to bring about pay levels consonant with the interests of the economy for which we are responsible."

The Government have now produced what can fairly be described as an absolute shambles in the field of industrial relations and in the economy generally. I have not been inaccurate in my predictions in the past on the economy. I wish I were inaccurate in what I am about to say. So far as I can gauge it, if there is a national pay agreement, the next six months will be a time of acute difficulty for the economy, but if there is a free for all, the next six months will be chaotic. We will have industrial unrest leading to further loss of jobs, and further loss of production, which will cause a negative growth in our economy, very possibly a fall in revenue to the Exchequer, but with greater demands than ever on the Exchequer in the field of social welfare.

Facing into that situation the unfortunate people are depending on this Coalition, the National Coalition as they like to call themselves. It is difficult to understand where they get the "national" into it, but I will not develop that theme. It is pretty clear that some members at least of this Coalition have allowed themselves to be misled by some bye-election results. The warning signals have gone up for them in Dublin South-West, a very serious warning. If they have not got the message the people are getting it fast, that this Government individually and collectively are disastrous for the country. You do not have to depend on the Fianna Fáil assessment to find that out. You can consult the ESRI or the Economic Review of the Confederation of Irish Industry to which I have already referred.

We are facing into probably the most difficult economic six months the country has ever faced at least since the war. What do we do? We are running away; at least the Government are running away. They think they will be able to avoid some of the worst criticisms if the Dáil is not in session. What sums up the whole approach of the Government is the reason we are given for the lengthy adjournment now proposed by the Government: the floor of the Seanad antechamber has to be repaired. That sums up the whole attitude of the Government and their attitude to the people in general.

Let me dispose first of all of the hoo-ha made about the length of the adjournment. I have here figures for recent Dáil adjournments under the previous Administration. In 1968 the Dáil adjourned for 103 days. In 1972 the Dáil adjourned for 102 days. This year the proposed adjournment is 103 days. The average length in other cases was approximately the same. There is a difference. Since we took office, last year we sat for 979 hours as compared with 691 hours in 1972 under Fianna Fáil.

I think we should have a quorum to hear the Taoiseach's speech. His group seem to have deserted him.

Thank you very much.

Any time.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

There was one occasion in those years on which the Dáil was recalled. In 1961 it was recalled by telegram to deal with the ESB stoppage. Legislation was passed in one day. So far as the House may be genuinely concerned, if the situation warrants it of course it will be recalled. It was not recalled during the serious crisis in the North of Ireland in 1969 although that was a grave situation. I will probably refer at a later stage to some other aspects of that.

In an adjournment debate the normal discussion proceeds on the basis that the Government are attacked, as they were by the Leader of the Opposition, Deputy Lynch, for what they did or did not do. On the other hand, certain alternative proposals were referred to by him. Some of them have seen the light of day. Others are what we understand to be discussion documents.

There has been nothing said in the course of this debate which would lead me to believe that any proposals from the opposite side of the House would deal any better with the present economic situation than our proposals have dealt with it. I want to acknowledge the appeal made by the Leader of the Opposition yesterday to the various parties to the recent employer-labour talks to accept proposals that were put before them, and also the appeal expressed by him to those involved in the bank dispute to take a rational view of the current situation. I am grateful to him for that, but I suppose most of us recognise that if appeals were the solution to the problem it would have been solved long ago.

I know the Opposition have the feeling that they must oppose and part of their duties is to oppose the proposals we have made. As I stressed yesterday, we have urged in the course of the last six months particularly, and even before it when we produced a White Paper on A National Partnership, the need for restraint and moderation in wage and salary negotiations. Recently we repeated that. It was asserted here today by Deputy Haughey that we changed our tune in the middle of the by-elections. That is not so. We said in the course of the campaign, and I have repeated it since, that this was crucial to the development of our economy. I said then and I repeat now that things are by no means as bad as speakers from the Opposition would have us believe.

One of the common criticisms which has been made in recent weeks and which has been pushed around by every means that is available to the propagandists—and they are not all on the Government side of the House—is that the Minister for Finance talked out of turn in respect of the bank strike. What did he say? He quoted verbatim comments, advice and admonitions from bank directors, from people in industry, from certain speeches or addresses delivered at the annual meetings by some bank directors. He quoted verbatim what they said at their meetings or in discussions or comments on the radio, and he then went on to contrast what they said with what they did.

Is there anything wrong in that? Is there anything wrong in being reminded of what people said, particularly having regard to the freedom with which they advised the Government and others to do this, that and the other, although when the opportunity arose they acted differently? The Minister for Finance has been the but of every type of criticism from every quarter, both Opposition and elsewhere, but the one thing that they do not admit is that he is resolute, competent and resilient, three qualities which taken together make him a formidable operator. That is his record and that is what he said. So far as we are concerned, we have made that clear.

However, Deputy Haughey talked here today about an erratic and irresponsible Minister for Finance. I quoted the figures. Deputy Haughey said we twisted our predictions because of the by-election; they were unrealistic and misleading. He was in Donegal during the by-election. He was removed out of it because of the attacks that were being made on him by his former colleague, Deputy Blaney. He was removed to Ballyfermot where I understand he paid up and shut up. He is not the person to talk about erratic and misleading behaviour.

His speeches are above personalities.

He was very free with them when he was here today; the Deputy was not here. I am going to give back now what we have been getting for the last six months, and I am going to say what I want to say without interruption. There is a report from the Public Accounts Committee after there was a Cabinet reshuffle in which Deputy Lynch removed Deputy Haughey and Deputy Blaney from office, and what was the report? I will quote the facts, and I quote from paragraph 79 of the report of 1st December, 1970:

It must be added that had Colonel Hefferon taken appropriate action when he learned from Captain Kelly about the proposed arms importation and his drawings from the account, much of the money might not have been misappropriated. Had the then Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, Deputy Neil T. Blaney, the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Charles J. Haughey, and the then Minister for Defence, Deputy James Gibbons, passed on to the Taoiseach their suspicion or knowledge of the proposed arms importation the misappropriation of part of the money which is now known to have been spent on arms might have been avoided.

Ever hear of Nero?

I do not think it is necessary for anyone on this side of the House to say another word on that. That was a Dáil Committee on which there were the following Fianna Fáil Deputies: Deputies Barrett, Dowling, Dr. Hugh Gibbons, MacSharry, Tunney and Nolan. Three of them are now members of the Fianna Fáil Front Bench. I want to quote the concluding remarks of Deputy Haughey's speech:

Our economy has ground to a halt, our young people are left without hope, our agriculture and industry have been disrupted, our dreams of unity betrayed. The Government have failed utterly. Instead of reform they have given us repression....

When I hear some Deputies opposite talking for the need for more gardaí on the beat, it reminds me of Satan rebuking sin.

We have put forward our proposals. We have made it clear in our dicussions with the trade unions and other organisations that we believe this is the only policy in present circumstances. We cannot isolate ourselves from the rest of the world, in which there are five million unemployed in the EEC countries. What I said yesterday was that compared with other countries—and we do not say any more—we have done better than some. Part of the Fianna Fáil plan is that we are to spend more money, but we are to spend more money without taxing more. We are to spend more money on what? Here are the figures we are spending on housing, and I will contrast them with the figures for the previous Administration. In 1972-73, the last year in which Fianna Fáil were in office, the total for housing provided by the State was £45 million. In 1976 the comparable figure will be £119 million. For the first quarter of this year there was over £20 million received by building societies. Last year the building societies spent over £65 million on top of the money that was provided by the State for building houses.

Deputy Lynch rightly says that he is in favour of a system of owner occupiers. Maybe he is not aware that we have one of the highest house home ownership rates in the world. More than 70 per cent of the houses in this country are owner occupied compared with something over 50 per cent in Britain and a considerably lower percentage in a number of the other EEC countries. In addition to that, two out of three of the houses that have been built in the last three years are owner occupied.

This part of the thing was not costed. Part of the Fianna Fáil propaganda was the suggestion that they would do away with rates. They did not say how the money would be raised, or how the local services would be financed. It was an easy cheap promise given on the eve of the election, which was contrary to the white paper which was published by them in December 1972, in which they said, that for many years rates would be an integral part of our economic system. They did not see in the foreseeable future any alternative system to rates. They talked about the abolition of rates on the eve of the general election and on the eve of this by-election also, and there was no suggestion as to how the money would be raised.

I costed some of the proposals made by the Leader of the Opposition yesterday, and the total came to £75 million. I do not know where he proposed to get the money. Deputy Colley said that we have reached the limit of taxation and borrowing. During the course of the by-election Deputy Haughey promised 10,000 new jobs. The last time Fianna Fáil had a scheme it was 100,000 jobs and that scheme disappeared. Deputy Colley was quite right a few minutes ago when he said: "Not that you can adhere to all targets of an economic plan". There is no doubt that some people learn from experience. The second Fianna Fáil plan collapsed, the third fell flat on its face and we do not know where the fourth one is. There were 70,000 or more unemployed when Fianna Fáil were in office and at the same time emigration was rampant. We have ended emigration.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach cannot be serious when he says that.

(Interruptions.)

I did not interrupt the Deputy.

The Taoiseach should not make deliberate mis-statements.

The Deputy should sort out his difficulties with his party. I do not propose to be interrupted a Cheann Comhairle, I am entitled to speak.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach, without interruption.

One of the assignments of Deputy Joe Brennan is to bring forward policies for discussion. That is one of the duties imposed on him and in between he does a bit of groundwork before the Donegal convention. One of his duties is to bring forward policies, and I do not know who brings them back after they have been rejected by the electorate. One of the former economic advisers to the Fianna Fáil Party published an article which suggested that we should cut social welfare by £30 million. Maybe that would have provided some of the £75 million required for Deputy Lynch's proposals.

That again is a misrepresentation. It is difficult to remain silent.

There is very little misrepresentation in that. Deputy Lynch referred yesterday to the increases which had taken place in social welfare and he said that there was not much in these increases, that they were swallowed up by increased prices. To set the record straight, between May, 1973, and May last the consumer price index has gone up by 68 per cent, say 70 per cent. At the same time the provision for social welfare, including payments from the Social Insurance Fund, went up by more than 100 per cent between 1972-73 and 1976. One of the advantages in this increase was that the rate of retirement pension, under both the insurance and assistance schemes increased between 95 per cent and 100 per cent between 1972-73 and 1976, and the personal rate of disability and unemployment benefit for an individual increased by more than 96 per cent while under the assistance scheme it increased by about 105 per cent. That is the record of the Government. These are the actual increases that people received.

In the course of his remarks the Leader of the Opposition said that the concept of pay-related benefit is all right if it was operated in the proper way. He referred to the possible adverse effects on employment if the benefit was too high in relation to employment income and he referred to the fact that some of the schemes had operated in this way. Recently Bills have been passed in both Houses of the Oireachtas to correct this, and an order was passed here, which was introduced by the Minister for Foreign Affairs for the Minister for Labour, who was then at the ILO, which gave effect to the Government's decision and provided that benefits should not exceed 85 per cent of the average net weekly earnings which he had received prior to becoming unemployed. The benefits include pay-related, redundancy payments, unemployment benefit and assistance and a refund of income tax as a result of unemployment. There was also a measure passed to impose extra penalties on employers who failed to stamp insurance cards. In other words we had a two-pronged approach in legislation to prevent excessive payments so as to wipe out any disincentive to seek work by payments which had resulted from the effects of a combination of three Acts meaning that in some cases persons got more than 100 per cent of what they earned when working. It has now been reduced to 85 per cent. I do not know whether the Leader of the Opposition thought that this ceiling was too high but at any rate that is the step we took to correct it.

Some discussion has gone on here about legislation. It is important to know what is being done. I referred to the fact that we sat more hours than any previous Dáil. In addition since we took office we passed 117 Acts compared with 96 Acts during the comparable previous three years of the Fianna Fáil Government. It is not that passing Acts by itself is any criteria, but you must allow for the fact that these Acts include a variety of measures of a reforming character, not of a repressive character. There was one measure which, to use Deputy Haughey's phrase might be of a repressive character, that was the Criminal Jurisdiction Bill. Is it not a good thing to take every step within our resources as a nation to prevent one group of Irishmen killing another and to bring to justice those responsible for it?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Is the Opposition against that? I know that there are divided counsels opposite on that. I know that there are divided views on that. I know that the reason for the protracted debate was to try and keep the two sides together. I know that there was not the same intervention in debate by some of the critics in the past. They were relatively silent, but they blossomed forth in the course of this debate. That Bill was found constitutional. There were other Bills also, one on physical planning, to establish an independent planning board. This was promised by Fianna Fáil but it was never brought in. One of the Ministers responsible for it resigned because he objected to what his leader did at the time. A Bill was brought in on building societies, a Bill to prevent the abuse of drugs, a Bill on discrimination in employment, a Bill on industrial relations, and a wildlife Bill. All of these Bills were promised by Fianna Fáil. It was like the Department of Lands in Castlebar, there was not a brick upon a brick until we got into office. There was also a Bill on family law, the first that we had a chance of passing for 50 years, and Fianna Fáil complain about that. We had a Bill on elections. Every other redistribution Bill was a Fianna Fáil Bill, and there was nothing wrong with them until the High Court got hold of one of them. There were innumerable amendments to the social welfare code. There were Bills on agriculture, culture and the arts, and a variety of other Bills, including the Prosecution of Offences Bill. All that indicates a reforming Government. I do not deny that there was one piece of legislation which might offend the patriotic sensibilities of some Deputies opposite.

Deputy Gibbons talked about agriculture and contested the fact that farmers' incomes had increased by 50 per cent in 1975. He said that I had ignored the drop in cattle and sheep numbers. He said that the Government were actively discouraging the agricultural industry and he referred to the action taken in relation to VAT and other things. He went on to say that the Government were hostile or inimical to farmers' interests. As far as I know, the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries is prepared at any time to advance farmers' interests and to meet deputations. Not only that, but on a number of occasions he brought along with him the Minister for Finance. I remember a time when a Fianna Fáil Minister for Agriculture would not receive the farmers. He left them out in Merrion Street and not in weather like this but in winter weather. Are the memories of Deputies opposite so short that they forget that? The Minister for Agriculture is, I think, recognised as one of the most energetic advocates of farmers' interests in this or any other country. He has vigorously asserted their rights. In fact, one of the criticisms in the course of the recent Dublin South-West by-election was that the common agricultural policy had put up the cost of living because of the increases in farm prices. The same case was not made in Donegal; there was no talk about it there. That is typical of Fianna Fáil—one voice in one place and another voice in another place.

The policy we have put forward in respect of both agriculture and industry has brought results which we believe are in the interests of the nation. Of course we are still faced with—and we recognise this—the major problem of a growing population of people out of work because of the effect of modern developments and particularly the effect, as I have said—I think I should quote from the leading article in today's Irish Press. It says:

In many ways the Taoiseach was coldly realistic and we hope the same realism will be practiced by other Ministers.

That is in contrast with what Fianna Fáil spokesmen have said and this is "Truth in the News". That is their view of what I said.

Yet no solution was propounded to this central basic weakness in the Irish economy. Can the State or anyone else provide for a revival of Irish industry to cater for the home market and our own consumers' spending? In textiles, clothing, footwear, durables such as refrigerators, shall we abandon the struggle and leave all to the importers? On the face of things this is what is happening and what industry we shall have will be foreign owned, highly technological and export orientated and also heavily subsidised by the Irish taxpayer.

There is not much wrong in that assessment of the situation. But how much worse would it have been if we had not established the Industrial Development Authority to attract capital, know-how and skill from abroad? I remember, although not many Deputies now remember, that the Opposition not merely opposed this but said that when they would get back they would repeal the Act. They did not repeal it and the Industrial Development Authority and the tax concession on exports introduced by the late William Norton and Gerard Sweetman have been the two greatest single factors in expanding and developing industry here. We have sought and obtained investment here from abroad because there is stability here and because investors believe that the atmosphere generally in a very troubled world is at least as good here as anywhere else and better than most.

Of course the Opposition could contrast that with the situation existing when we had the last Cabinet shuffle in the Fianna Fáil Government. Deputy Haughey is keen on a reshuffle now. He was not so keen on the last occasion when there was a reshuffle. The Fianna Fáil policy is to spend more on everything. We have had debates when we sat here for over 900 hours —a record. In that period we gave more time in one year, with the exception of a few hours, than Fianna Fáil gave in three years to Private Members' Business.

What was the time used for? Does anybody remember a motion in which it was said: "You should not spend more money; save it; you should not spend on this—cut it out". Where there not motions on roads, education, housing grants, amenity grants, health grants, more medical cards, more benefits of every kind, week in week out, for an hour-and-a-half on Tuesday and an hour-and-a-half on Wednesday? They trooped into the division lobby week after week on Wednesday evenings advocating more money for everything. But we are told: "You cannot borrow, you should not borrow; you have already exceeded your borrowing limit".

We think we have gone to the limit with national borrowing. For one thing the cost of borrowing means that it must be paid for out of revenue, that you have to tax people to pay for it. One of the criticisms is that we should not have taxed the old reliables. What should we have taxed? Is it suggested that we should have raised income tax or increased VAT, or reimposed VAT on food which we took off when we came in? Is that suggested? The Fianna Fáil proposal is that we should spend more but we should not tax and we cannot borrow. Nobody accepts that. The answer is the recent by-election. The people in the recent byelection——

Which by-election?

The Deputy reminds me of something. I see that according to a report one person at the Fianna Fáil convention in Donegal said he was screwed by another. As far as I can see, Deputy Blaney screwed both of them.

We have made our view as regards Northern Ireland abundantly clear and that as far as we are concerned any proposal that meets with the support of both communities there will have our support. Deputy Colley said in the course of his remarks here before I stood up that we had rather opted out. But we had a number of meetings— this year alone there were two meetings in Dublin and others in London— with the Secretary of State for the North. I had a meeting with the then Prime Minister, Mr. Wilson, in London in March. There have been other discussions since.

The Leader of the Opposition referred to the Fianna Fáil policy document on the North of Ireland and expressed the view that it was produced prior to the demise of the Convention. The Convention almost had the seeds of its demise from its conception but Deputy Lynch's timing may be a little at fault. In fact, their policy document was produced on the eve of the West Mayo by-election. That was at a time when there was a sort of movement to see if it was possible to reach some sort of rapprochement with Deputy Blaney. We know what happened to the document in West Mayo and not even a blood transfusion from Deputy Blaney's party could now revive it.

We have approached this problem with a clear and sustained policy to ensure that both communities in the North respect each others' rights. If both communities agree on a settlement it is acceptable to us. We have made this clear in the North, in discussions with the British Government and we have made it clear here. I see no alternative policy that would produce a better result or that would have any hope of success. Naturally, we regret that the discussions have not reached a stage which we would hope would result in a measure of agreement between the two communities there. We have had discussions ourselves both directly and, on some occasions, jointly with different elements represented. We are still prepared, and will continue, to play our part in endeavouring to get agreement.

So far as the question of recalling the Dáil is concerned, we have made it clear that should the necessity arise we will recall the Dáil. As I mentioned earlier, there were many occasions in the past in which issues arose and the Dáil was not recalled. We recognise that it is, of course, the privilege of the Opposition to assert that they do not want to go on holidays. The fact is the decision to adjourn was announced many months ago and the Opposition were told. It has nothing to do with the present balloting on the employerlabour conference wage recommendations. It was announced before the present impasse arose over the banks. It is not an effort to close down. Whatever else can be laid at our door we have never tried to stifle discussion in this House. We have had more discussion, longer debates, more time for Private Members' motions——

More guillotines.

We had a couple of guillotines.

The Coalition have had far more than any previous Government ever had.

I think the record was on the Marts Bill. I listened yesterday to the paternal solicitude of Deputy de Valera in regard to pushing through the Estimates. This is not new. This has been the practice for years. There is the difference in that this year we have given a great deal of extra time for debate and even with that extra time for debate on Estimates, on legislation and on Private Members' motions the Opposition are not satisfied.

I heard Deputy Colley a few minutes ago talk about an article alleged to have been written by Dr. Brendan Menton. In this case he confused the father with the son or the son with the father. It was the son who wrote the article and he was never in the Department of Finance. Some may have noticed that in the statement on the by-elections the Fianna Fáil propaganda machine said Fianna Fáil's percentage vote in Dublin had gone up by 1½ whereas the Coalition vote had gone up by only 1.5 per cent. This is the Opposition that criticises statistics.

Is that the Taoiseach's answer?

Some of the Opposition are a little concerned about the propaganda machine. I think Deputy Haughey was a little worried. The contrast was not really between the Government and the Opposition. He did not tell us about their own propaganda machine. He himself takes a few little trips around the country——

He is moving in.

——and he entertains a few Deputies and he goes to some cumainn. There is one thing all his speeches have in common at these meetings —he advocates support for the Leader of the Opposition. Support for the Leader of the Opposition!

Is the Taoiseach performing tomorrow night?

The fact is we are adjourning for the same length of time as Fianna Fáil adjourned on at least two occasions.

When the economy was sound.

Now the weather is good. If Deputies opposite take a little of it it will give them a tan, but not as good a tan as they got in the recent by-election.

Before you put the question, Sir, may I ask the Taoiseach a question? The Taoiseach asserted that "we"—presumably he meant the Coalition Government—stopped emigration. Would the Taoiseach indicate in what year the net figure showed a turn towards immigration instead of emigration in support of his assertion?

The Leader of the Opposition can put down his question on that after the recess.

In 1971 the net emigration was 7,160 and in 1972 the net immigration was 1,334 before ever the Coalition got into Government.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."
The Dáil divided: Tá 68; Níl, 61.

  • Barry, Peter.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Bermingham, Joseph.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Dick.
  • Burke, Joan T.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Pattison, Seamus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, John J.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Enright, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, John G.
  • Finn, Martin.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Halligan, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Patrick.
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Keating, Justin.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lynch, Gerard.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Malone, Patrick.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Staunton, Myles.
  • Taylor, Frank.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Toal, Brendan.
  • White, James.

Níl

  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Brosnan, Seán.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Brugha, Ruairí.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Callanan, John.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Gerard.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Farrell, Joseph.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Gibbons, Hugh.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Leonard, James.
  • Loughnane, William.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Murphy, Ciarán.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Power, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kelly and B. Desmond; Níl, Deputies Lalor and Browne.
Question declared carried.

The question is "That the Dáil on its rising this week do adjourn until Wednesday, 13th October, 1976."

Before the House votes on the motion may I ask the Taoiseach if, in the event of a breakdown in the national wage agreement proposals, it would be the intention of the Government to recall the Dáil for the purpose of debating the serious situation that would ensue?

As I have explained, if the occasion warrants it the Dáil will be recalled.

Is the motion agreed?

We are going to vote on it because we do not believe in the intention of the Government for the House to meet if it is necessary.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 68; Níl, 61.

  • Barry, Peter.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Bermingham, Joseph.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Dick.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Enright, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, John G.
  • Finn, Martin.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Halligan, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Patrick.
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Burke, Joan T.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Keating, Justin.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lynch, Gerard.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Malone, Patrick.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Pattison, Seamus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, John J.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Staunton, Myles.
  • Taylor, Frank.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Toal, Brendan.
  • White, James.

Níl

  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Brosnan, Seán.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Brugha, Ruairí.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Callanan, John.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Gerard.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Farrell, Joseph.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Gibbons, Hugh.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Leonard, James.
  • Loughnane, William.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Murphy, Ciarán.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Power, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kelly and B. Desmond; Níl, Deputies Lalor and Browne.
Question declared carried.
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