Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Feb 1977

Vol. 297 No. 2

Social Welfare (Consolidation) Bill, 1976: Second Stage.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Welfare (Mr. Cluskey)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of this Bill is to consolidate into a single Act all existing enactments governing the social insurance and social assistance schemes administered by the Department of Social Welfare. The Bill embraces the provisions of more than 60 existing Acts most of which contain some provisions which are still valid. It also includes the provisions of subsidiary legislation, such as statutory instruments and statutory rules and orders, where such legislation expressly amends or modifies the statute law.

The Bill does not of course provide for any change in the law as it stands at present and the Attorney General has issued a certificate in accordance with Standing Order No. 107 of this House to the effect that the Bill is purely a consolidating measure and as such does not promote any new law.

A brief explanatory memorandum has been issued with the Bill and, as is required under the terms of Standing Orders, a memorandum prepared by the Attorney General has been prefixed to the Bill which shows the enactments which it is proposed to repeal and the precise provisions of the Bill in which these enactments are reproduced. I trust that these memoranda are of assistance to Deputies in their consideration of the somewhat complex provisions of this exceptionally large piece of legislation.

As Deputies are aware, the process of consolidating legislation involves the grouping together within a single enactment of all those provisions of existing legislation in the area under consideration which remain valid. It also can involve, as in this case, the re-arrangement of these various provisions into a logical and practical sequence suitable to the present needs of those who must implement and interpret the legislation. Consolidation also includes the repeal of such provisions as have, in the course of time, become obsolete and which have no longer any validity.

The Bill contains some 311 sections and runs to more than 200 pages of print. These facts clearly illustrate the scope and the complexity of the social welfare system as it has developed over time. The Bill contains provisions embracing the schemes of social insurance, as provided for by the Social Welfare Act, 1952 and by the many subsequent amending Acts, including the Social Welfare (Pay-Related Benefit) Act, 1973. It includes also provisions covering the schemes of social assistance as provided for by the Old Age Pensions Acts, the Unemployment Assistance Acts, the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Acts and the Social Welfare (Supplementary Welfare Allowances) Act. The Bill also embraces the legislative provisions of the children's allowances scheme, the intermittent unemployment insurance ("wet-time") and the school meals and fuel schemes. And, of course, it includes the various ancillary provisions which relate to the administration of the various insurance and assistance schemes including the decision and appeals machinery, the various methods of financing and the arrangements for legal proceedings and so on.

Thus, with the passage of this Bill, there will be for the first time a single Act of the Oireachtas making legislative provision for all aspects of the social welfare system. It is my intention that the new Bill should be made available, after its enactment, in a form comparable to that of the Income Tax Act, that is in a loose leaf form capable of being up-dated after the passage of any and all subsequent legislation. In this way the highly complex social welfare legislation will from now on be available in a more usable and readable form to those who have occasion to use it.

This Bill has been prepared because of the legislative results of the expansion of the social welfare system over recent years. The growth of the legislation necessary for the administration of the various social welfare schemes has reached the stage where the entire legislative framework has become so extensive and complex as to be extremely difficult and time-consuming to interpret. When I announced in this House that work had started on the consolidation of social welfare legislation—in my Second Reading speech on the Social Welfare Bill of 1975— I pointed out that the long title of that enactment itself indicated the range of legislation governing this area, making, as it did, reference to Acts including the Old Age Pensions Acts and the Education (Provision of Meals) Acts covering the period from 1908 to 1974. I also pointed out that there were approximately 60 basic Acts and at least 350 regulations governing the schemes operated by my Department, not to mention innumerable examples of case or precedent law arising from the application of those Acts and regulations. I considered it appropriate to streamline all of this law so as to meet with the requirements of ease of access and greater clarity and so make for the more efficient administration of the whole system.

In recent years there have been repeated requests from interested social services bodies in the public and private sectors for consolidation of social welfare legislation so as to provide them with a more easily understandable and more manageable body of legislation with which to work. Similar requests have been made by Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas and from all sides of those Houses for the consolidation of this very complicated and yet very widely referred to body of legislation. I hope that the Bill now before the House will serve to meet these very legitimate requests and to provide all these interested individuals and bodies with a meaningful and workable legislative framework.

The main beneficiaries, to a great extent, of this change will of course be the officials of the Department of Social Welfare. In their day to day work they must deal continuously with the interpretation and implementation of this wide range of Acts and subsidiary legislation. I want at this stage to pay tribute to the officials of the Department who have carried out this task of consolidation. It has been an arduous and demanding task calling for great attention and meticulous care and it has been accomplished with the skill which I have come to expect from the officials of my Department. I must also pay equally well deserved tribute to the officials of the Attorney General's office who have played a significant part in carrying out this work very speedily indeed. They have all recognised the need for this development and have made a full contribution to its achievement.

This Bill is among the largest to be presented to this House. It will, following its Second Reading here, be referred to the Standing Committee on Consolidation Bills of the two Houses. I trust that it will be possible for the Committee to deal quite speedily with the Bill in order that it may be enacted and made available for use at the earliest possible moment. I do, of course, recognise that the examination of such a complex piece of legislation is an enormous task and I can assure all those who will be involved in its scrutiny of the fullest co-operation of myself and of my Department in that work.

In conclusion, may I say that I regard this consolidation as a most important piece of work in so far as it brings together, clarifies, and makes more manageable a body of legislation which is of profound importance to so many of our fellow citizens. I intend that as soon as this legislation has been completed a consolidated set of social welfare regulations, updating into a small and practical set of new regulations the vast range of existing statutory instruments, will be issued. When that is done I believe that a considerable step forward towards a more understandable social welfare code will have been taken.

I do not, however, underestimate the extent of the continuing task of ensuring that everyone who has need to know about the social welfare code and its implications for them, either as recipients or as workers in the social services area, will be provided with all the information and assistance which they require. That is a task which must be carried on with increased commitment and determination. I have pleasure in recommending this Bill to the House.

Mr. Andrews

I agree that the Parliamentary Secretary should have pleasure in recommending this Bill to the House because it is a singular achievement by the parliamentary draftsman, the officials in the Department of Social Welfare and in the Attorney General's office. We must thank them for going some of the way towards preserving the sanity of those people who attempt to look up a particular piece of social welfare legislation and on that grounds they have done a good job. Those of us who know the complexity of Acts, which go back to 1908 in this instance, can understand the achievement which this document enshrines.

It must have been a daunting task. Since the Parliamentary Secretary first made the announcement in 1975 those people have been working very hard. I would like to join with the Parliamentary Secretary in thanking them for giving birth to this very important Bill. There is nothing new in the Bill. We are constrained by the rules of the House from going into it in any great detail in the Second Reading debate. We will have a greater opportunity during Committee Stage, which will be taken in one of the committee rooms outside the Dáil Chamber, of going into it in more detail. It is important to remember that the House cannot propose amendments to this Bill because it is consolidating existing legislation. Of course, by definition, one cannot amend in committee live legislation, which is the term the experts use. We are discussing live legislation.

We have quite a number of queries to raise on Committee Stage. I assume that this debate is limited to general observations on the quality and quantity of the document before us, Some years ago when I asked the Parliamentary Secretary if it was his intention to consolidate over 60 existing Acts and hundreds of statutory instruments and regulations he stated it was his intention to look into the matter in detail. The Parliamentary Secretary, for that alone, must also share in the plaudits handed out to his officials. He has been active in his Department. This document indicates his activity and his concern.

We are discussing a Bill which consolidates, on my last count, some 64 existing pieces of legislation. I will not mention the number of sections I counted in case somebody suggests I counted them incorrectly. In addition to the legislation before us we are also discussing the social charter with which our predecessors concerned themselves. It is very easy nowadays to condemn those who governed in the past for their apparent lack of concern but it can be seen under this Bill that there was social concern of one form or another since 1908. In 1908 the Old Age Pensions Act was introduced. That is the first Act dealt with in this Bill and the last piece of legislation is the Social Welfare (No. 2) Act, 1976.

This Bill outlines the concern from 1908 of our ancestors to the foundation of the State and from that time to late last year. I accept that at the beginning of the century social welfare was welfare and was rather paternalistic. It was given rather grudgingly and on the basis that if the State had to come to the rescue of some person or persons it would do go rather grudgingly. Nevertheless, the social welfare, social security and social affairs consciousness or awareness of the citizens of the State has proceeded to develop and that development can be seen throughout the structures of the various Acts consolidated in this Bill. For instance, the Bill shows the beginning of an awareness of the State's need to look after the aged in the first Act of 1908 and the State went on to introduce the children's allowances scheme, "wet-time", pay-related benefit, widows and orphans, deserted wives and prisoners wives allowances which were introduced by the National Coalition. They indicate a development of a social consciousness. For this alone this Bill must be seen as a good thing.

It is interesting to note the awareness of the various political parties over the years. From the foundation of the State and the taking of power by the Cumann na nGaedheal Government, from 1922-23 to approximately 1931-32, four social welfare Acts were passed, according to the Bill before the House. Under Fianna Fáil, from 1932 to 1948, subject to absolute accuracy, about 18 social welfare Acts were passed and from 1948 to 1951, the period of the first Coalition Government, three social welfare Acts were passed. Fianna Fáil Governments, from 1951 to 1954, introduced one or two Acts. During that period of office Fianna Fáil introduced what could be described as the foundation stone of future social welfare Acts, the Social Welfare Act, 1952, which contained more than 125 sections. That was an achievement by the whole House rather than an achievement by an individual Government. One can see from the Official Report of those debates that there was great participation by all sides on that occasion. The second Coalition Government introduced about three Acts and during the last 16 years of office of Fianna Fáil more than 20 Acts were introduced. They were important Acts and they included occupational injury scheme and pay-related benefit scheme—although they were introduced by this Government they were prepared by Fianna Fáil when in office.

This Bill is a monument to the politicians of the past and the present and it will be a reference book for the politicians of the future. I was pleased to read in the explanatory memorandum that the Bill embraces many far-reaching and wide references. It includes social insurance schemes, social assistance schemes, children's allowances schemes, "wet-time" schemes, school meals schemes, fuel schemes, footwear schemes and many other schemes. I do not wish to enter into any great area of contention on this but when we are discussing a Bill which contains 64 Acts, 311 sections and five Schedules many questions must arise. I am not suggesting that the Committee which will deal with this will meet in secret and I have no doubt that there will be a place for the Press to report the proceedings of that Committee.

The Parliamentary Secretary should inform the House when the Social Welfare (Supplementary Welfare Allowances) Act, 1975, will be brought into effect. We understood that that Act would be brought into effect in June of last year but we are still awaiting it. I understand it can be made operative by way of Ministerial Order. On the occasion of its introduction the Parliamentary Secretary implied urgency and anxiety that the old social welfare concept, the Victorian hand-out concept, would be abandoned entirely. I ask him to give the House an indication as to when the Social Welfare (Supplementary Welfare Allowances) Act will become operative.

This presents an opportunity to discuss social welfare in a very general sense and to indicate to the Parliamentary Secretary my concern in relation to the pilot programme on poverty. I understand certain discussions are taking place, or that they will in the next hours or days and, to use a cliche, I do not wish to exacerbate the dispute. However, I share the view of Deputies that the pilot scheme will continue successfully. It is a pity there has been a breakdown——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is deviating from the Bill which is essentially a consolidation measure.

Mr. Andrews

I realise I am constrained on this measure, and the Parliamentary Secretary indicated this in his concise introductory speech. However, any discussion on social welfare should include a reference to poverty and though I appreciate we are discussing a consolidation Bill——

Mr. Cluskey

On a point of order, Deputy Andrews tabled a question for yesterday in relation to the poverty schemes and the dispute. I have no knowledge as to why the Deputy withdrew that question because had he proceeded with it I could have been pressed to answer questions on it by way of supplementary questions. In these circumstances, I suggest it is not proper for the Deputy to avail of the Bill, which has no reference whatever to the poverty committee, in this fashion. If he had wanted information he should not have withdrawn his question yesterday. I respectfully suggest that he is not entitled to avail of this totally irrelevant occasion——

An Ceann Comhairle

I must rule again that I cannot allow such a discussion here. The debate on this measure is inhibited by Standing Orders 108 and 114.

Mr. Andrews

I am grateful to the Chair for drawing these matters to my attention. On a number of occasions the Parliamentary Secretary has accused me of using the wrong type of language—that he was interfering but not intervening—and he today has used the wrong expression when he said I withdrew the question. I did not. I postponed the question until Thursday.

Mr. Cluskey

This is Wednesday.

Mr. Andrews

I am fully in touch with the situation in relation to the poverty programme. I understand the executive committee and the staff are to meet today and I considered that a specific question on the dismissal of the director might have prejudiced those discussions.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy and the Parliamentary Secretary will not circumvent the ruling of the Chair. The Consolidation Bill, please.

Mr. Andrews

I wanted to inform the Parliamentary Secretary that I did not withdraw the question—I postponed it. It is my intention to try to ensure that justice will be done on that front and that the poverty programme will be continued. I understand that since 1950 there have been four consolidation Acts. The Bill before us is an important piece of legislation which will merit close scrutiny when it comes before the Committee. In the explanatory memorandum it is stated:

Consolidation is a process whereby "live" provisions of existing legislation are rearranged together in one single measure. Amendments which in any way alter the existing law are not permissible. However, where the language in old enactments was considered to be archaic it has been modernised and other changes have been made to improve on the original wording of some of the enactments which are being consolidated. The Bill has been certified by the Attorney-General to be a consolidating measure.

The Parliamentary Secretary has indicated that he will assist the Committee and I suggest that he will bring to the Committee's attention how and where the language has been simplified and modernised and changed with a view to improving the original wording of the enactments. The indexation to the Bill might be somewhat improved. Far be it from me to advise the people who drafted the Bill because they have done a really magnificent job but I find the index somewhat confusing. It does not quite distinguish—I say this with reservations—between statutory instruments and the Acts themselves. It is a small point.

The Parliamentary Secretary has indicated that he intends introducing a booklet similar to that available where income tax laws are concerned. If the Parliamentary Secretary could bring out a booklet in glossary form, something not too bulky, he would be doing a good job. This Bill will become a reference book for anyone concerned with social welfare since 1908. It will be one of the most important reference works since the foundation of the State and for that reason its presentation should be well done. If cost is a factor, then it will have to be done as cheaply as possible but, if what I have suggested is done, then it will simply be a matter of adding on subsequent social welfare legislation. I hope this Bill will be passed before the next general election, though I have my suspicions one is imminent.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Andrews

Indeed, sooner or later, but it will suit us at any time, as Deputy Coughlan well knows.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Andrews

I consider it one of the finest Ard-Fheiseanna in the history of the political party of which I am proud to be a member.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order. We are departing from the measure before the House.

Mr. Andrews

As far as we are concerned, the Bill will be given an expeditious passage. The Parliamentary Secretary says in the explanatory memorandum that there has been a certain re-wording of the archaic language, and properly so. As a result of research, we have produced a number of words and phrases which might be rejigged to give an up-to-date meaning. I trust the Parliamentary Secretary will tell us what he has in mind in this regard. The Bill is comprehensible enough. Much of the legislation has never been seen by the vast majority of the people. It has, of course, been seen by those who operate it—the officials in the Department and in the exchanges, the lawyers and the politicians. The people for whom this kind of legislation is introduced never read these Bills or do not know their existence. From that point of view this Bill is a good approach. I and my colleagues shall have a more extensive contribution to make on Committee Stage. I did attempt to widen the debate but the Ceann Comhairle quite properly brought me to order in regard to the limitations placed on me by Standing Orders.

Mr. Callanan

I welcome the Bill. There are over 60 Acts dealing with social welfare and it is difficult for ordinary people to understand their entitlements. Sometimes, through ignorance, they deprive themselves of their entitlements. I agree that simplification in the language is desirable and from that point of view the booklet will be most important. I hope examples will be given. If they are, a great load will be taken off the public representatives. People come to me who are entitled to social welfare but are not getting it because they do not know their entitlements. This is important legislation where the under-privileged are concerned. As has been pointed out, successive Governments have passed a number of Social Welfare Bills. That is a reflection on us really. There are a great many people who need social welfare. That is the situation, unfortunately, and it is the responsibility of the State to see that these people are not left in need. The intention of the Bill is to ensure that people have a reasonable standard of living and that there will not be severe poverty. We must accept the fact that poverty exists and will increase as our inflation rate rises.

An Ceann Comhairle

There must not be a departure from the Bill before the House.

Mr. Callanan

I welcome this Bill and I am trying to emphasise its importance. I do not intend straying from the Bill. I understand a select committee are to examine it in detail and it is obvious they will have a long and tedious job. In common with Deputy Andrews, I hope the Bill will not be delayed. I suggest that consideration be given to issuing an explanatory booklet which should be circulated to Deputies and also be made available to the general public. The booklet should be in language that can be comprehended by everyone.

Mr. Coughlan

I welcome this clarification of a very complicated system. Those of us who have spent years trying to solve people's problems particularly in the area of social welfare find it is becoming more confusing. The Parliamentary Secretary stated:

I considered it appropriate to streamline all of this law so as to meet with the requirements of ease of access and greater clarity and so make for the more efficient administration of the whole system.

I have been dealing with the Department of Social Welfare for more than 25 years and I do not think there is there the efficiency that is necessary. There is too much duplication involved and its offices are scattered throughout Dublin. A previous Minister, Mr. Boland, centralised the Department in Dublin and that was the greatest mistake. We opposed it as bitterly as we could and we explained what would happen. We have to wait for weeks or months for decisions——

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not in order. The debate is very limited on this consolidation Bill. Changes in the level of existing benefits and allowances may not be raised.

Mr. Andrews

I am sure Deputy Coughlan does not wish me to help him but I wonder if the Chair would give the House the ground rules for this debate for future reference.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have already mentioned them—Standing Orders Nos. 108 and 114.

Mr. Andrews

Will the Chair tell the House what they contain?

Mr. Coughlan

I accept the ruling of the Chair.

Mr. Andrews

I am not questioning the ruling of the Chair. I merely wish to get the ruling to be clear in my mind for the future.

An Ceann Comhairle

First, I wish to point out that it is not incumbent on the Chair to quote Standing Orders or to give reasons for its rulings.

Mr. Andrews

The Chair should not be so sensitive. I am not challenging the ruling. If the Chair does not wish to quote the relevant Standing Orders——

An Ceann Comhairle

I will do so on this occasion but it may not be taken as a precedent. Standing Order No. 108 is as follows:

(1) On the Second Stage of a Consolidation Bill the only amendment which may be moved to the motion, "That the Bill be now read a second time", is one proposing the omission of all words after the word "That" in order to substitute words stating a reason or reasons in challenge of the Certificate of the Attorney General.

(2) If on the amendment to the question, "That the Bill be now read a second time", it is decided that the words proposed to be omitted stand part of the question the Bill shall forthwith be declared to be read a second time.

Standing Order No. 114 which is also relevant states:

In the Standing Joint Committee on a Consolidation Bill the only permissible amendments shall be amendments designed to be for the removal of ambiguities and inconsistencies, the substitution of modern for obsolete or inconvenient machinery or the achievement of uniformity of expression or adaptation to existing law and practice. Amendments of the nature of substantive amendment of the statute law shall not be in order.

Deputy Coughlan will appreciate how limited we are on this Bill. He will confine his remarks solely to the desirability of consolidating the existing social welfare code.

Mr. Coughlan

Yes. I wish to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on combining as concisely as possible the activities of his Department, particularly with regard to giving the public the information they need. That should have been done a long time ago. However, a further step should be taken now. It is all very well telling people about their entitlements but the problem arises with regard to when they get them. That is what is causing me concern.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Welfare (Mr. Cluskey)

There has been a welcome for the Bill from both sides of the House. When Deputy Andrews confined his remarks to the Bill he was extremely constructive and, indeed, fulsome in his welcome for the measure and in his appreciation of the arduous and tedious work performed by officials of the Department of Social Welfare and in the office of the Attorney General.

Deputy Andrews described the Bill as a reference book on social welfare and I agree with him. It is a most important development and it could rightly be described as a milestone in the development of the social welfare code. I wish to join with Deputy Andrews in expressing my appreciation to the officials of my Department and in the Attorney General's office for the work they have performed in a very short period when one considers the size of the Bill.

As has been mentioned here, there is a tremendous need for the general public to know their entitlements and rights. Deputy Andrews pointed out that few members of the public read Acts of the Oireachtas but they are widely read by those who are active in certain areas. I do not think any other Department deals directly with more people than does the Department of Social Welfare. When this Bill is enacted it will enable voluntary and statutory bodies and social service workers throughout the country to have ready access to find what people's entitlements are. A number of questions were raised, not all of them relevant, but they were raised. I will deal with Deputy Coughlan's question about delays.

Mr. Andrews

The good wine until last.

Mr. Cluskey

Deputy Coughlan raised the question of delays. I dealt with this matter at considerable length at Question Time yesterday by way of supplementary replies. I pointed out that there were over one million new claims per year in the Department of Social Welfare, approximately 20,000 per week. The number of delays that occur can be attributed to the fact that people do not give sufficient or correct basic information when they are initially making their claims, such as neglecting to enter their insurance numbers or giving the wrong insurance numbers. At times we have had the experience of people putting the wrong address on applications. At the same time, I acknowledge that there are instances of delays for which the Department and I accept responsibility. When dealing with a volume of applications in excess of one million per year it is only natural that there is some human error. The Department are conscious of the necessity to minimise and eliminate, if possible, any form of delay because, irrespective of how few they may be in relation to the volume we deal with, they can and, in some cases, do cause considerable personal hardship. Deputy Coughlan's contention that centralisation of the system has added to the delays does not bear scrutiny and is not in accordance with the facts.

Mr. Coughlan

That is not my experience.

Mr. Cluskey

It is a fact that decentralisation would add to the delay. Deputy Andrews raised the question of changing obsolete wording and so on. There has been relatively little change in relation to the whole Bill but officials of the Department will be available to the members of the Consolidation Committee and they will point out where such changes have taken place and will give every possible assistance to the Committee to enable them efficiently to scrutinise the Bill on Committee Stage.

The question of producing a smaller copy of the Bill was raised. As I mentioned in my Second Stage speech, when the Bill is enacted it will be produced in a loose cover form which will be a more compact edition. Not only will it be available to Deputies but it will be available to the public through the Government service.

Deputy Andrews raised two other points and I should like to deal briefly with both of them. The question of the poverty committee was one point.

Mr. Andrews

With respect, the Parliamentary Secretary will be out of order on that question.

Mr. Cluskey

If the Chair rules me out of order I cannot attempt to answer the Deputy. I would ask the Deputy to continue to exercise the responsible attitude which he said he had towards this programme. It is of importance to a large number of people in our society.

Mr. Andrews

I agree with that.

Mr. Cluskey

Any degree of irresponsibility at any level could seriously jeopardise the programme.

Mr. Andrews

I am glad that the Parliamentary Secretary said "any degree of irresponsibility at any level".

Mr. Cluskey

I said that. The question of the Social Welfare (Supplementary Welfare Allowance) Act was also raised by the Deputy. As I explained to the Deputy, that Act has been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas. It is appropriate that it would be included. It requires a ministerial order to bring it into effect. Negotiations are continuing with the officers who will be required to operate the new Act. I am hopeful that the negotiations will soon reach the stage where agreement can be reached for the introduction and implementation of that Act. I am extremely anxious— and I know the Deputy shares my anxiety—to have that Act in operation as soon as possible.

I thank Deputy Andrews for his support for the Bill and his gracious acknowledgment of the work that was put into its preparation by the officials of the Department and the Attorney General's office. I assure the Deputy and all concerned that any assistance that the Department can give in relation to the scrutiny of the Bill on Committee Stage will be available to the members of the Committee.

Mr. Andrews

With your permission, I should like to ask——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary has not concluded.

Mr. Cluskey

I had finished but there is a procedural matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

I must put the question: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time" before the Consolidation Motion is moved.

Mr. Andrews

Can the Parliamentary Secretary say when the Committee will meet and can he give us its constitution? I should like to thank the Parliamentary Secretary for his kindness in putting his officials at the disposal of the Committee. The Parliamentary Secretary seems to be suggesting that there is a breakdown of the officials who will be operating the scheme. The Parliamentary Secretary is aware that this matter has been going on for nine months. As I understand it, the officials who will be operating the scheme are anxious to have it work as a matter of considerable urgency. The people who are suffering most are the people for whom it is being introduced, the home assistance people. The Parliamentary Secretary should bring to the attention of all sides this first concern. I agree that there must be equity and justice for all but could the Parliamentary Secretary go into more detail about the real hold-up in the introduction of this Act—it is not a Bill, it is an Act? I do not want to be contentious on this subject either.

Mr. Cluskey

For a man who does not want to be contentions the Deputy has a peculiar way of phrasing his contribution.

Mr. Andrews

I have a great weakness in that respect.

Mr. Cluskey

I know that, but I have a weakness myself for pointing out such weakness. As I told the Deputy, there are negotiations going on between the organisations representing the home assistance officers under the appropriate arbitration and discussion machinery for their grades. That is outside the Department of Social Welfare and under the conditions for the resolving of any matters that they might wish to resolve. We do not engage in direct negotiation with them. There is appropriate machinery for it. As I said, I am hopeful the matter will reach a stage where the legislation can be enacted. There is just one thing I would like to point out. I am extremely anxious that the home assistance scheme would be eliminated in this country. Deputy Andrews is talking about a delay of nine months in its elimination. I would remind Deputy Andrews that the home assistance scheme is administered under an Act which was passed in 1847, and up to three or four years ago since the foundation of the State Deputy Andrews's party had no less than 36 years opportunity to replace it. Therefore, while I am anxious to expedite matters and regret any delay, I think it is only fair that that fact should be pointed out.

On the question of the composition of the Committee and how it will operate, under Standing Orders the Committee may not meet earlier than 14 days after the motions have been passed in both Houses of the Oireachtas. The members of the present Standing Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills are Deputies Esmonde, de Valera, and Mrs. Desmond, and Senators Alexis FitzGerald, McAuliffe and Eoin Ryan. In accordance with Standing Orders the Minister of the promoting Department should be an ex officio member but such Minister can nominate the Parliamentary Secretary attached to his Department to be an ex officio member instead. I assume that is what will happen. I also understand that the Committee can co-opt three additional members to those already on the Committee.

Mr. Andrews

The Parliamentary Secretary only mentioned the 1847 Act. He did not mention the 1801 Act.

Mr. Cluskey

No.

Mr. Andrews

I thought he might have suggested that Fianna Fáil were responsible for the Act of Union.

Mr. Coughlan

Could I ask the Parliamentary Secretary on what basis he asserts that centralisation of the distribution of social welfare benefits has been more beneficial than when it was decentralised?

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot allow the continuation of such a matter, which is outside the scope of the Bill.

Mr. Coughlan

The statement was made. I merely want clarification.

Mr. Cluskey

If the Chair allows me I am prepared to deal with it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Very good.

Mr. Cluskey

On the basis of an examination of the administration of the system as a whole and not just one particular aspect of it.

Question put and agreed to.