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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Mar 1978

Vol. 304 No. 10

Private Members' Business. - Employment Plan: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Kelly on Tuesday, 14 March 1978:
That Dáil Éireann deplores the failure of the Government to achieve the promised reduction in the number of jobless especially among young people, or to produce any plan in this regard.
Debate resumed on the following amendment:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and to substitute the following:
"has confidence in the ability of the Government to achieve the promised reduction in the number of jobless, especially among young people, and to produce a plan in this regard."
—(Minister for Labour.)

I should like to continue on the basis of the discussion last night and say that, if we are to conquer this terrible cancer of unemployment, while job creation must contribute in a vital way to its defeat, I cannot lay enough emphasis on the necessity for job retention. I am delighted that my thinking on job retention is relevant to the attitude and ideas of the Minister for Labour when he was in Opposition. I should like to indicate why my ideas are so relevant to his thinking in Opposition. In a debate on economic and social policies on 3 November 1976, as reported at columns 1031 and 1032 of the Official Report he said:

There is another item to which I want to refer in regard to job losses. We have seen a huge number of receiverships, liquidations, companies getting into difficulties and jobs being lost as a result. I believe the day is long past when, as a nation, we could afford to see such companies wind up. I know the number given in reply to a parliamentary question not too long ago was frightening. There are other companies still in danger. I believe that the simple process that has operated up to now of a receiver being appointed merely to sell off the assets at whatever price he can make to satisfy his clients is gone. That is not sufficient any more with regard to such companies. The emphasis must shift from the repayment of the debt to increasingly seeking the revival of that company, or part of it. The social conscience—and we hear an awful lot about social conscience from those benches over there—with regard to workers and the economy at large demands this shift of emphasis. Many jobs could have been saved in the past, many jobs in so many different industries.

Those words were uttered by a very outspoken Deputy in 1976. One can see his concern when in opposition but how can one now evaluate his attitude when in government since June 1977? How can one relate his concern for job losses when in the space of about five months in his own constituency 400 jobs went to the wall? How can I or anybody else accept that he or his associates in the Cabinet were concerned in the months gone by with regard to a large industry in my area, Ferenka, when it was suggested to them that the Government should subsidise this industry until such time as it was viable?

This can also be said about a serious situation that exists at present in relation to another semi-State body. I am referring to the association of Van-Hool with CIE. If there is concern for job retention the money needed to ensure the viability of that industry and the protection of the jobs of 300 workers should be given by the Government. I will let the people draw their own conclusions. Apparently, what one says in Opposition and what one does when in Government are contradictory.

I should like to refer to the Fianna Fáil manifesto and to an item which was high on the priority list of that party, their emphasis on the need to develop industries based on natural resources. That was worthy of support. However, when one considers that food processing must rate high on this list, how can one relate the emphasis in the manifesto to the Government's indifference to the closure of the Erin Foods potato processing plant in Tuam involving 200 jobs. That town can ill-afford to lose that number of jobs. It is unfortunate that this should occur in the first year since the establishment of Erin Foods that they showed a profit. If the Government were sincere and concerned to ensure that jobs are retained they would see that there was a need to help Erin Foods. Erin Foods should have been directed not to close this plant. We now have a situation where the potato processing plant which was nurtured by employees and small farmers in the area over the last five years and had reached a stage where there was a guaranteed market for potatoes has gone to the wall. That has happened due to the indifference of the Government. Where is the concern for the retention of jobs there? How can one say that the manifesto promises are genuine and how can Fianna Fáil say that they are committed to creating jobs in such a vital sector of our agricultural industry when such a plant is being allowed to close down?

On the basis of the Government's policies no impartial person can entertain any hope that the unemployment register will be reduced in 1978 or 1979 to the degree set out in the manifesto. The Minister for Labour announced some time ago that he had extended the Employment Incentive Scheme to the building and construction industry but can any Minister tell me if any job has been created as a result of the extension of this scheme? The Irish Congress of Trade Unions suggested the establishment of a national development corporation to assist in the creation of the new jobs that are necessary, but this suggestion has been turned down by the Government. We are all anxious to know why the Government adopted this attitude because there is merit in that proposal and many people believe there is a need for such a development.

I appreciate what has been done in the public sector with the creation of new posts for teachers, gardaí and nurses, but I cannot see the logic in what the Government are doing in that direction when at the same time there has been a cut-back of approximately 25 per cent in the subvention to CIE this year. That cut-back is bound to affect the employment situation in that semi-State body. It is hard for anybody to appreciate or believe the genuineness of the concern of the Government for job creation when in their own area of responsibility, in the semi-State bodies, there is such indifference to job retention. I support the motion.

Last evening and for a brief period this evening we heard a not very original or inspiring list of complaints about the alleged failures of the Government and unilateral statements about the level of unemployment but the actual facts about the positive trends in job creation have been ignored. It is well recognised that there is a substantial level of new job creation in manufacturing industry, and it is gratifying to note that the recently established upward trend in job creation is being sustained and is on the increase. The significant point here is that these gains are net gains and that as a result the manufacturing workforce is expanding fairly rapidly.

As a nation we recorded the best industrial performance in the EEC in 1977 and we seem well set to repeat that performance this year. In 1977 we were the only EEC country to increase our manufacturing employment; all others decreased. Present indications show that there was a net increase of 9,000 after job losses had been allowed for in manufacturing industry here in 1977 and that the net increase in manufacturing industries alone in 1978 will exceed 10,000. That does not take into account the increase in employment generally, because when the service industries, which can usually be taken as in the proportion 1:1 to manufacturing industries, are added to that and the number of job losses in agriculture subtracted, there is a substantially higher increase in jobs in the past year than 9,000 net. It is worth observing in passing that the Government commitment in their manifesto of last May has not only been achieved but exceeded.

It is obvious from these figures that manufacturing industry is making a tremendous contribution towards providing employment for our growing labour force. This contribution is being sustained and increased in the face of intense competition in international markets for products and investment. Our manufactured exports have been increasing their share of world trade. In the home market a concentrated effort is being made, involving the Government, State agencies, distributors and the public at large, to assist Irish manufacturers to increase their market share and thereby to make a greater contribution towards complementing the job creation activities of exporting firms. The Government's three-year programme for the promotion of Irish goods is expected to make a major contribution to achieving the Government's target of raising the level of industrial job creation over the next three years. The small industry programme is also being intensified and the response rate to date, in terms of projects approved, is very encouraging.

IDA approvals of new investment projects will provide the main basis of future job creation. The IDA is operating for the first time in a very competitive arena where the increasing emphasis on attracting new investment by our EEC partners reflects the high levels of unemployment in these countries. While unemployment in Ireland has been declining steadily as a result of job creation activity here, the situation in most EEC countries has been one of increasing unemployment. Despite the intensified competition for international investment, the IDA recorded over 24,000 new job approvals in 1977 and has set itself a target of 27,000 this year, which, given reasonable goodwill, I have every confidence they can achieve. The significance of approvals of this magnitude lies not only in terms of the jobs to be provided but also in the major contribution that this new investment is making to broadening our industrial base, thereby reducing our historic dependence on a narrow range of relatively unsophisticated industrial activities.

In view of the widespread recognition of the contribution being made by manufacturing industry to our economic development, it is a matter of regret and concern to contemplate the serious effects of strikes and threats of strikes on the national effort to increase the rate of economic growth. The damage done is not adequately reflected in the statistics of man-days lost through stoppages. Such stoppages are only the symptoms of a deeper malaise affecting industrial relations. Management is being obliged to spend an excessive amount of working time in sorting out disputes on the factory floor. As a result, management effort and effectiveness in the essential areas of productions and marketing is being seriously diminished. If work-flow were allowed to proceed with less disruption, the productivity of management and workers would increase significantly with beneficial effects in terms of increased output and employment.

I am being constantly asked in the course of industrial promotion visits abroad about the position of industrial relations in Ireland. We must face the fact that disruption of activities due to stoppages affecting public sector enterprises constitutes a major threat to our industrial development programme. We have seen that continuing disruption of telecommunications services can cripple our export efforts in the short term and will damage investors' confidence in Ireland as a long-term base for investment.

It has been intimated to me that the combination of a telecommunications stoppage with a disruption of Aer Lingus services due to industrial action could have serious consequences for oil exploration activity this year. We stand to lose a vast amount of planned expenditure in this area and a setback to exploration activity will have serious consequences for the achievement of our economic targets. I must say that I find it difficult to reconcile the poor record of industrial relations in public enterprises with the trade union arguments for greater public ownership in the industrial area as a proposition for achieving faster economic development. The record of disruptions of essential services in existing public enterprises augurs poorly for the smooth operation of State-owned industry in general and I think this is a point well worth reflecting on.

It is appropriate that I should draw attention to these matters at present. The two main disputes which are now in train are singly and collectively having a very serious effect on the standing of this country abroad particularly its standing as a suitable location for industrial investment. This debate is about job creation. To a very great extent industrial investment is job creation and job creation is about industrial investment. If groups of individuals or institutions or groups of institutions want deliberately to so disrupt these basic essential services as to create the kind of difficulties we have today, it ill-behoves people who involve themselves in this kind of activity to complain about difficulties in job creation. This would always have been so but, as I have already pointed out, it is more pertinent now, unfortunately, and more relevant than it ever was before because it is only in the last year or two that the IDA really began to encounter competitors abroad in the demand for industrial investment. I do not think anybody else from any other country has yet built up the expertise that our IDA have acquired but those other countries will not be long in doing it.

Whatever about the IDA having greater experience and expertise, one thing they do not have is more money to dispense. We have seen an example of what will happen with the unlimited dispensing of funds as has been published within the past week or two, and we can expect more of that to happen, unfortunately. Many of them will not be as easily identifiable as that industry which went to Northern Ireland because they will not, generally speaking, have made a commitment of some kind or other to the Republic before they change their minds and go elsewhere. They will change their minds at an early stage. This country is up against that difficulty also.

Notwithstanding these problems I have every confidence in the ability of the IDA and of the other agencies and bodies connected with this problem to overcome these difficulties and to achieve ever-increasing figures of job approval and job creation in this country. It is a pity that such a difficult job should be rendered so much harder for them by some of the things that are happening in this country today.

I want to make reference to the three-year programme for the promotion of Irish goods which I launched in January which one of my Ministers of State, Deputy R. Burke, is actively involved in promoting at present. It was spoken of last night in a rather sarcastic and sneering fashion by Deputy Kelly who was very confident in his prediction that it would not succeed, that it would not create 10,000 jobs, that it was a fraud or some words to that effect.

Perhaps the Minister would quote anything of that kind. I said just the opposite. I said all the best and in no way predicted anything disastrous for it.

In a most begrudging fashion.

The Minister of State was not even here.

He went off within two minutes. Perhaps the Minister will quote if he has the blacks.

This is what the Deputy said:

I observe every other day scripts from both senior and junior Ministers in which there are references to this compaign and to switching 3 per cent of purchasing power from imports to home-produced material, creating in this way 10,000 jobs. I am afraid we are on the verge of seeing a legend created according to which, without anything happening in regard to the switching of purchasing power, 10,000 jobs have been created by this campaign.

Is that all I said?

No, the Deputy said a whole lot more.

The Minister has not the honesty to read it all out.

The Deputy goes on to say:

If this had been advanced anywhere except in an election manifesto I would not be speaking about it now, but it was part of an election manifesto which was held up to the people as being the source of 10,000 jobs. I feel entitled to draw attention to this figure and to say that we will be watching for it. We will be watching to see how much of the extra spending power released by the remission of car tax and so on has been devoted to Irish goods. We will be watching not in order to damn the Buy Irish campaign but in order to damn the dishonesty of the party which persuaded the people that by means like this they would produce jobs out of a hat.

Does the Minister call that sneering at the Buy Irish campaign?

It is quite in character for the Deputy's party because my Minister of State, Deputy Burke, has been touring the country over the past month or 6 weeks; he has held meetings in support of his campaign in many of the principal cities and towns throughout the country and he tells me that up to a week ago at least—I do not know what has happened in his travels during this last week—not one Fine Gael TD attended one meeting in any part of Ireland——

Other than in Castlebar.

Other than in Castlebar. I believe one Labour Deputy did attend also. This programme is going well, and, I am glad to say, getting reasonably good public support, particularly from manufacturers, retailers, distributors and others at whom it is aimed. One of the reasons that this denigration of it is going on all the time is that it is being painted or portrayed as a Fianna Fáil programme because it was first referred to in the Fianna Fáil election manifesto.

Quite the contrary; it was the Minister's predecessor who began it.

It is a national programme being promoted by the Government and being administered in its day-to-day administration by the Irish Goods Council. It deserves the support of all Irish people; it does not deserve the kind of attitude that has been taken up to it by some of the people opposite and some of those whom they represent. I have every confidence—and the first three months of that compaign give me ground for that confidence—that this programme will over its three-year life meet its targets, that it will switch 3 per cent of consumer spending from imported to Irish-made goods and that it will as a result of that and nothing else create 10,000 jobs in this country. Everyone in this country should be seeking to help that programme and help the Irish Goods Council to achieve these necessary objectives rather than taking up the attitude that unfortunately has been so marked in relation to it in the past couple of months.

It should not be in a party election manifesto.

Oh, it should not have been. Is that what is wrong with it now? I presume then that by 1982 when we are going to have the next election, I will call in Deputy Kelly and show him our proposed manifesto and ask for his approval, and then he can tell us what we can leave in it and what we can take out. The biggest problem as far as Deputy Kelly is concerned about the Fianna Fáil election manifesto is that it is working.

Reference has been made by Deputy J. Ryan to the situation in Van-Hool McArdle in Dublin. I have given a good deal of attention to this and the secretary of my Department has given a great deal of attention to it. He called a number of meetings to try to resolve the difficulties. Unfortunately, he has failed to resolve them, and I am afraid, knowing the nature of the difficulties, to a great extent they were impossible of resolution. I do not want to give the details of why it was so difficult to resolve these problems because that would entail my having to make comments on the manner in which the company operated.

I hope the Minister has no plans to meet the management in this case.

In any event, the situation is that the great majority of the workers concerned were entitled to go back to CIE, and of course I presume that those who have that option will exercise it to go back. I am informed now that CIE offered jobs to the remaining redundant workers in Van-Hool McArdle who did not have that option. The result is that there should be nobody out of employment as a result of the unfortunate liquidation of this company. It is now a matter for the board of CIE to decide whether they themselves will resume bus building here or whether they will come to an agreement with another party to undertake this work. I will be urging them to decide how they want to approach the matter as soon as possible, and when they have made their decision as to what way they are going to do it they will then get every encouragement from me to get into production as soon as possible. There will be premises available as soon as they are ready to start again. From the information I have been given by CIE there has not been any loss of employment as a result of the liquidation of that firm, and all the words spoken about it were spoken in vain.

I want to deal with the UK employment subsidy in relation to the Irish subsidy, which I would have thought, from a normal reading of last night's debate, was criticised by Deputy Kelly but he will probably tell me that he did not criticise it. He spoke in bitter terms about it and regarded it as an inadequate response to the problems created by the British temporary employment subsidy. I would like to put a few facts before the House in relation to it. The first is that the various Irish industries, particularly the labour-intensive ones such as clothing, footwear, textiles and allied sectors of industry, have been hit by this British temporary employment subsidy from the very day it began about two years ago. They began, within a short time of its introduction, to see the way they were affected. They saw jobs being lost and they approached the then Government and the then Ministers for Industry and Commerce and Finance. They urged both of them very strongly to introduce some form of assistance which would alleviate the problems created by the British scheme. There was a point blank refusal to introduce such a scheme.

The various people concerned were told that the introduction of such a scheme would not be justified and would not be introduced by the Government. When I came into office I could see the difficulties that had been created. I was apprehensive, to say the least of it, of the problems we would create for ourselves by introducing a scheme of this kind. If we are going to get into competition with the British in financial disbursements to industry, whether of a capital or an operating nature, we cannot win. We must lose in the long run. In my view, we would be better off if we can avoid it, never to begin to run in a race we can never win. However, having had the opportunity to consider the matter and look at it at first hand over a period of months, I spoke to the Minister for Finance about it. He agreed with my point of view and introduced a scheme in this year's budget which will last for as long as the British scheme lasts and no longer.

The figure for the weekly payment in the Irish scheme of £5 per week has been criticised as being worth one-fourth of what the British scheme is worth. It is considerably more valuable than that because the Irish scheme will be paid in respect of every worker in those various sectors of industry, whereas the British scheme is only paid in respect of those whose redundancy would otherwise be inevitable. I understand it applies to approximately 20 per cent of the workers in those various sectors. It seems to me that £5 for all your workers is more money than £20 for 20 per cent of your workers. I do not think, whatever criticism of principle might be appropriate to a scheme like this, its inadequacy can be criticised.

The EEC Commission announced in Brussels this afternoon that they were accepting the continuation of the UK scheme for a further year subject to significant modifications. We have in general terms an idea of what those modifications are likely to be from the multilateral talks which took place recently in relation to this matter. I understand that the modifications have not yet been officially announced. We are, however, faced with the problem that this large and wealthy country, which has a great deal of spare cash to disburse nowadays as a result of the North Sea, has been allowed by the Commission to retain this system which it seems to us on the face of it distorted competition within the Community. We have first-hand evidence in the unemployment of our workers that it is distorted competition. I trust that the Commission's action in allowing this large and wealthy industrial power to retain this particular aid to industry will be borne in mind when certain aids offered by the Irish Government to industry come up for scrutiny as they do from time to time.

I was asked by my colleague to give Deputy Kelly the figures in relation to emigration. He said that emigration had started again and that the Government were at fault.

I did not say that.

Obviously my colleague did not hear Deputy Kelly correctly if he did not say that emigration had started again and that the Government were at fault. I got the figures from the Central Statistics Office. The position is that in the year 1971 to February 1972, the year when the historic tide turned, there was zero emigration for the first time since 1841. In 1972-73 there was net emigration of 2,000 to 3,000, in 1973-74 4,000, in 1974-75 4,000, 1975 to February 1976, zero to plus 1,000 emigration. From February 1976 to February 1977 there was net emigration again of between 3,000 and 4,000. That was when the tide turned again unfortunately. The Central Statistics Office have not yet worked out the figures for February 1977 to February 1978. They will not be available for a while but their estimate is that the net emigration figure for that year will not be less than what it was in the year beginning February 1976.

Various other points were raised which I cannot deal with now in the very limited time one gets in these debates. I want to say that this is the only country in the EEC increasing its manufacturing employment and it is the only country in the EEC where unemployment is decreasing. Those things are being achieved in the face of many serious and fundamental difficulties. The Government's programme in this respect is on target. I feel it should be the objective of all our people and of all Members of the House to see that the Government's programme is maintained and remains on target.

It gives me no pleasure to address the House tonight on this motion. Too many young and old people are out of work and too many of them are living in abject poverty. No election is in sight, not even a by-election, so it must be clear to all disinterested parties that this motion is in no sense political. The motivation of the motion is to pressurise the Government to change the disastrous policies they have adopted.

Let us examine the recent history of unemployment. The figures on the live register for this week are in excess of 112,000. That is 3,000 greater than the figure for July 1977 when the present Government came to power. We all know that there are seasonal fluctuations in unemployment and that we must compare like with like. We must compare this week's figure with the corresponding figure for last year. There are just over 5,000 fewer on the live register of unemployed than there were during the same week last year. That does not mean, as this House has been led to believe, that there are fewer people unemployed.

There has been a parallel increase in the numbers unemployed who are not registered. More and more people coming on to the labour market for the first time are finding it difficult to get employment. Even if there was only a 5 per cent increase in that figure in the last 12 months it would more than cancel out the reduction in the live register figures. That being so the June 1978 figures, based on Fianna Fáil's estimate last June, should be in excess of 160,000. It also means that the figure today would be considerably greater given that the number on the live register last June was 109,000. The total unemployed on the live register was estimated by Fianna Fáil at 160,000. The figure on the live register has gone up by 3,000 and the unregistered number of unemployed has gone up by we do not know how many thousand. That means that the likely number of unemployed at the moment is somewhere around 170,000. That is an alarming if not a revolutionary situation. The number of unemployed on 5 July last year was 109,000 which was 8,000 less than the figure for the first week in March 1977. In four months the reduction in live register unemployment was 8,000, so it is reasonable to assume that without any intervention from the Government there should be a parallel reduction in the next four months. We should expect a figure of 104,000 in the first week of July of this year without any intervention from the Government. I doubt if that figure will be achieved. There is very little to encourage the hope that it will be achieved.

In analysing the unemployment figures for last week I noted an increase in the numbers on short-time employment. That is very discouraging. If the unemployment figure on the live register for 5 July 1978 is reduced in the way it was last year during the same months it should reduce to 104,000. With the additional money to be provided we should reasonably expect to have below 100,000 unemployed by July. Unless the attitude and policies of the Government change there is no chance that that figure will be achieved.

I listened with absolute sadness to the speeches of the Ministers for Industry, Commerce and Energy and Labour. There was no hint of any positive suggestions or action from either of the Ministers who are responsible for job creation. There was no encouragement to the young people to expect anything on the horizon. To be fair, the Minister for Labour introduced an employment action team. When launching this team last August the Minister said that the emphasis would be on action. As the House knows from replies to questions put to the Minister a few weeks ago there has been neither employment nor action. The team is only a cover-up, a charade for Fianna Fáil inactivity.

The unemployment situation is alarming and it makes the Government's budget strategy wrong in an historic way. It is alarming because the only identifiable successful policy in combating unemployment lies in the Employment Incentive Scheme. The Minister for Labour mentioned how successful this scheme was in January and February 1978. The Employment Incentive Scheme is a carryover from the National Coalition Government. Alongside this we have what can only be described as a most favourable atmosphere, an unparalleled 5½ per cent growth in GNP in 1977, greatly increased output, and massively increased exports. All these were brought about in part by Coalition policy and by last year's National Pay Agreement which was full of restraints and which increased competitiveness and maintained industrial peace.

Why then, with £20 per head subsidy available and such growth has industry not come across with more jobs? I believe the answer is to be found in comparative statistics now available to us. The National Economic and Social Council Report No. 35 on Population and Employment Projections 1986: A Reassessment, in Table A.5, sets out Sectoral Productivity for 1974. At the top of that table it is shown, in brackets, that the Republic of Ireland = 100. Given the Republic as 100, in agriculture, British productivity is shown at 172 and the Benedelux countries—that is, the Benelux countries with Denmark—at 193. What of industry? The Republic of Ireland is shown as 100 and the Benedelux countries as 188. In services the Republic of Ireland is shown as 100 and the Benedelux countries as 153. That does not even include a more productive country such as Germany. There-fore the fact is that we, as a country, are under-productive, that industry and agriculture are grossly over-manned. It takes two Irishmen to produce what it takes one European. Yet Government strategy is to put all of their eggs in the one basket, that of private enterprise. Private enterprise must be as competitive and productive as its rivals if it is to survive and to be competitive its costs must be lower. If Irish industry employs two people where a European industry employs one the only thing that saves it is the weak £. As we know, the £ is strengthening on the exchange rate and, given the weakness of the United States' economy, it is likely to streng-then even further. Therefore, the basis of the Government's policy must be considered very weak. Yet the very cornerstone of Government policy is to wield jobs where there are already twice too many. Historically this is wrong. It is like trying to sell ice to the Eskimoes. God knows most people on the other side of the House would not even attempt it.

Our only hope is to be competitive as a race, to produce as much per man as is done in other countries. Yet the budget and all that went before it was full of incentive for the rich, indeed for everybody except the ordinary working man. One thing a businessman must be to survive is businesslike. Even with the additional carrots in the budget private enterprise will in no way be encouraged to employ more people, certainly not on a long-term basis because, as every businessman knows, they are already greatly over-manned.

There is another problem that besets us in addition to that of under-productivity. It is the question of under-participation of women in our economic activities. I am not necessarily advocating that every married woman go out to work but I am stating that there is an irreversible social and cultural trend in Europe and here under which married women in increasing numbers are going out to work or remaining at work after marriage. I elicited the information in this House from the Minister for Economic Planning and Development that the participation rate in Ireland compared with the rest of the EEC was just under one to two, in other words, just less than half the percentage of Irish women were at work than in Europe. Yet even the most pessimistic job creation needs take no account of rising female participation rates. The National Economic and Social Council Report, No. 35, to which I have already referred says we need to create 28,000 new jobs annually. That report ignores the two major problems to which I have referred—the under-productivity of the Irish worker and the under-participation of Irish women in our economic activities. If those two major omissions are taken into account, possibly our job creation needs are as high as 40,000 annually. I believe they should be taken into account because as long as we, as a country, have not got true full employment, then we may expect a less than enthusiastic response from the Irish worker to productivity arrangements and so on, because inevitably there is an element of protectionism, that of protecting their own and their colleagues' jobs when a situation of high unemployment obtains, as it has here for a very long time.

The necessary and desirable changes not alone on the employment front but in social and cultural matters also can be achieved only by full employment. This budget has been described as anti-social. I described it in the budget debate as an ideologically conservative one and so it is. There is no under-estimating the consequences of the Government's policies in undermining the industrial relations situation. Since coming into power the Government have persistently and consistently aided and abetted the wealthy at the expense of the poor with, on the one hand, the abolition of wealth tax and, on the other, no increase in children's allowances. We had the spectacle of the Government rushing in in a most curious fashion to bail out the investors of the Irish Trust Bank.

Would the Deputy get back to the motion, please. He is on the budget; he has already spoken on the budget. The motion is about employment and nothing else.

With due respect, the Irish Trust Bank was in difficulty long before the budget. I will make the point any way. The Chair might not like it but——

Deputy, please do not make that charge. The Irish Trust Bank has nothing in the wide earthly world to do with the motion before the House, nothing.

If the Chair will let me make the point then he can make a ruling.

There is no use talking to the Chair in that way. Will the Deputy please keep to the motion?

I am talking about the atmosphere created by this Government. How can workers stand back when they see a Government perpetually favouring the rich at their expense? I mentioned the Irish Trust Bank in passing. That is one example. The wealth tax is another.

The Irish Trust Bank and the wealth tax and all such matters are matters for the budget and have nothing at all to do with the Deputy's motion.

If the Chair telling me that industrial peace has nothing to do with employment?

I am telling the Deputy to keep to the motion.

If the Chair will let me I will. The point is that the climate created by the Government has been one of disaster, one of undermining industrial relations and industrial peace, so much so that there is a very widespread fear, perhaps not expressed, among trade unionists that this Government is seeking confrontation. Incidentally, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, you were not here for the comments of the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy, but those suspicions have been well fed tonight by that Minister, the Minister primarily responsible for the Ferenka disaster. I mentioned some items in passing. We have the situation where there will be no increase in old age pensions, no increase in children's allowances, subsidies removed from basic commodities like cheese and town gas abolished and, at the same time, we can have across-the-board the abolition of rates. Now the abolition of rates is a very good thing for the vast majority.

Was your Government not taking the children's allowances off altogether?

Listen to the champion heckler.

Order. Deputy Mitchell on the motion. The motion concerns unemployment and not anything else. Deputy Mitchell's name is to the motion and he should speak to the motion and not enter on a budget debate.

I am sorry but I am being interrupted all the time. I am very, very worried because I earnestly want industrial peace. The only way the country can achieve the jobs necessary for all its people, the only way towards any hope of full employment, is in an atmosphere of prolonged industrial peace. The policies of the Government to date have been deplorable in their handling of the unemployment situation. They are alienating the worker. They are anti-worker and we have had symptoms of worker reaction all over the country. We have had strikes galore. Since I was appointed Fine Gael spokesman on labour matters I have been weary raising the incidence of strikes in this House.

They were all inherited ones.

Let us talk about Ferenka then.

We will have no interruptions, please, and we will have no talk of Ferenka, industrial relations or strikes.

There were 1,400 jobs lost in Limerick in Ferenka.

And the Minister for Labour was like a weekend crocus during that dispute.

He was told to keep out of it.

We all know what happened in Ferenka. There were 1,400 jobs lost in Limerick. Is that not unemployment? We all know what happened in Ferenka.

The Minister for Labour was told to keep out of it but he made a brief appearance.

The Minister for Labour was told to be a quiet boy and stay out of it. We all know what happened in Ferenka. The Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy refused the directors of AKZO and, as a direct consequence of that, Ferenka was closed.

I have told the Deputy we are not discussing Ferenka. We are not discussing industrial relations. We are discussing the jobless and the unemployed.

I am sorry to quarrel with you, or appear to do so, but ten minutes of the speech of the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy was on industrial relations. He dragged in the telephone dispute and the Aer Lingus dispute.

The telephone dispute, the Aer Lingus dispute and Ferenka have nothing at all to do with the motion.

The Ceann Comhairle allowed it.

The Chair is ruling now. Deputy Mitchell, on the motion, please.

It is one thing for one side and another thing for the other side.

The only thing in the submission of the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy—for which you were not here, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, and it was allowed by the Chair—was industrial relations. The fact is the Government are responsible for the appalling industrial relations now current because they have provoked the workers. Take, for instance, the Posts and Telegraphs dispute. Am I allowed to mention what the High Court judge said?

No. The Deputy will not discuss the Posts and Telegraphs dispute on this motion.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, are you trying to render this House ineffective?

Deputy Mitchell, do not argue with the Chair.

I have to argue if the Chair is acting offensively.

That sort of charge is not good enough from the Deputy.

I feel it.

The Deputy may feel it but he will not make that sort of charge against the Chair. The Deputy put down the motion and he will speak to the motion.

I will not get into an argument with you because that will not benefit the unemployed but I genuinely believe there is need for the Government to cry "Halt", to stop and look again at what they are doing to the workers and how they are alienating them. The Government must stop and try to create confidence in the workers so that there will be industrial peace because it is only in an atmosphere of industrial peace that jobs can be created. I have mentioned Ferenka. I have mentioned the Posts and Telegraphs dispute and I must mention Van Hool in my own constituency. Three hundred jobs down the swannee. Government inactivity.

What about the boatyards?

The boatyards too and I think there were jobs lost there in the Minister's own constituency and now New Ross as well. It seems to me the only answer this Government have to unemployment is emigration. That seems to me patently clear—emigration and stop women working. Married women have no right to work. That is the attitude of the Government. Others can emigrate. That is the solution. How else can we explain the situation where there are 5,000 fewer registered unemployed on the live register and that in a situation where there has been huge economic growth, unparalleled growth, a huge increase in output, in exports, £50 million in the January 1977 budget for job creation and yet not one person less, taking into account the registered and unregistered, out of jobs. That is a damning indictment.

I do not support this motion. It is absolutely unfair to say the Government have done nothing to help the unemployment situation since elected to office. It is equally unfair to say they have no plan. Last night it was said no one should take credit for the fact that there had been an increase in the civil service. The posts created have been in the Garda Síochána, where an increase in personnel was very badly needed, and in teaching personnel, an increase designed to improve the pupil-teacher ratio in our schools. We should be proud of creating these jobs. The manifesto was a plan and that plan cannot be completed in nine months. The budget was geared towards the creation of jobs. In the public sector there will be approximately 11,000 jobs and large sums of money will be spent on health and education to create employment. The building industry was also helped to a considerable extent. The money allocated for sanitary services and environmental schemes will create much-needed employment in local authorities.

Nobody can say that youth unemployment is not directly affecting this city and the country generally. Some 50 per cent of the population are under the age of 25 and of the total number unemployed 44 per cent are under the age of 25. There is no doubt that thousands of young people are still unemployed. We are not denying that. The Employment Action Team that was established, and which was criticised in this House, was allocated a small sum to get it started. It is fair to remember that probably it is the only group in the last few years that has unions, employers, youth organisations and the Government sitting down together to solve the problem.

From what I have heard, the youth groups are very happy that somebody is working for them and that they are getting a chance to be involved. A sum of £900,000 has been allocated to Dublin Corporation and the chief architect dealing with amenities and the park superintendent are working on a system that will finish on 31 March to decide how the jobs will be created. That will happen in a few weeks. The Ballyfermot employment scheme will provided interesting information which we did not have previously because a census was not carried out in 1976. An EEC survey is proceeding at the moment and that will give similar information.

In the short time at my disposal I want to comment briefly on a few of the reactions from the far side to the speeches made from these benches. I noticed when he came in this evening the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy had done me the honour of reading carefully the speech I made last night. Although he was not here himself he had got the carbon copy of the report and had gone through it. In his characteristic way he saw fit to pick out a reference that I made to the Buy Irish campaign and, while quoting only one or two sentences from my speech, he tried to persuade the House that I had attempted to blacken the campaign. Of course I did nothing of the kind.

What I said was that I wanted to call a truce for a few moments in the debate in order to reiterate my support and the support of this party for that campaign. This was not the first time that I said that or that it was said from this side of the House but, of course, it was far above the Minister's honesty threshold to say that. I had deliberately interrupted the flow of my otherwise critical remarks in order to say that we wanted to express our wholehearted support for the scheme. This was not the first time we did this; we started the current phase in regard to the Guaranteed Irish symbol.

What I said last night, and what I wish to repeat now, is that Fianna Fáil introduced this matter which should be above party politics into their election manifesto, coupled with an arbitrary number of 10,000 jobs, and thus made it into a party political matter. Although I would not myself stay away from Buy Irish functions— and I do not believe the Minister was right when he said that Deputies from my party do so—if anyone has politicised that campaign it is the party opposite. It should never have been part of a political manifesto and it should never have been made the subject of a pretence that a party, by sponsoring a scheme of this kind, could turn out so many jobs.

The Minister took enough trouble to read that part of the speech but I noticed he was as coy as the shrinking violet or weekend crocus I mentioned a moment ago in regard to some of the other things I said which bore directly on his Department. There was not one word from the Minister about the Employment Action Team which has not produced one single job up to this minute. There was not a single word from him about something that is not the responsibility of the Minister opposite but his own responsibility——

The Employment Action Team is my responsibility.

I am referring to the industrial development consortium. It is an absolute dead duck and I am not saying that to damn it. It was a dead duck from the word go. It could not have been anything else because of the terms on which it was constructed. Although it was intended as a leg of the Government's job creation programme it could never have been something that created jobs. It has no budget, it has no statutory basis, no officers, no programme, it does not do any business and it does not create any jobs. Naturally it was a dead duck from the word go. If the Minister put it on a different footing, if he turned it into a real consortium, nationalised or otherwise—I do not care which— we would support it if it was worth supporting. From the beginning it was a dead duck and it remains one. The Minister took time out of his busy day to read the carbons of my speech last night but he did not have anything to say about my words on that topic. I have noted that.

The Minister was quiet enough about the building industry. Last night I asserted that the figures for November 1976 and November 1977 show that in spite of the colossal up-turn in the general economy and the end of the recession—even if there had not been a Government in the country or if the British were still here there would have been an up-turn in economic expansion and activity—the difference in the building industry figures was 641 jobs and this is in an industry that is in the Fianna Fáil Party's pocket. The figure of 3,170 jobs mentioned by the Minister for Finance cannot be found anywhere. The difference is 641 jobs. After all the expenditure, after all the hand-outs and the grants, that is the difference in the employment figures for November 1976 and November 1977, the latest date for which figures are available.

The question of the Buy Irish campaign appears to the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy to be relevant here. I made it relevant last night by talking about it. If it is a party matter now, it is he and his side who have made it such. He let fall a very significant, revealing and, from his point of view, a very wounding expression in the course of his speech this evening. He did not say a lot about the amendment and he said little about confidence in the Government to produce a plan. There is not a word about such a plan, about youth employment or about any of the things we are supposed to be talking about. It did not suit him to talk about them. However, when he was talking about job creation in the years ahead he let fall a very revealing phrase. He said it as though it was as natural and was to be taken for granted as much as the fact that the sun will rise tomorrow. He referred to the fall in agricultural employment.

That is an axiom and a cliché in most of the industrialised world. We know that the number in agricultural employment will fall, that according as machines do the work the number at work will tend to fall because there is no necessity for people to scratch and harrow the ground with their hands. Even the greatest Jackeen knows that much. However what the Minister did not understand—and the fact that he used these words shows his total lack of understanding and the lack of understanding in his party—is that this country is unique in the EEC in having as much land derelict, under-developed, undrained, unused as would make a small state. We are not in the same position as the Belgians and the Dutch. They can talk about a contraction in agricultural employment. Every square yard of their country is used. If I travelled to where Deputy Killilea lives I would see fields in which nothing is happening. I would see fields half under water, fields growing thistles, ragwort and dock.

The Deputy was in Government for four years.

I have been seeing that since I was a child. To talk in this easy, off-hand way as though a constand decline in agricultural employment was built into the social and economic future of this country shows a shallowness and an empty-headedness of thinking on the part of the Fianna Fáil Party of which they should be ashamed. The future for this country lies in the land, in what can be got out of the land and in the processing which can be done on the land's produce.

When I find that kind of attitude on the part of the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy, a man who is supposed to be responsible, and is gladly responsible, for the industrial sector which comprises and contains food processing, I say to myself: "God help us, if that is what we have come to that we can listen in this Dáil in a single day to what we heard at Question Time about the Tuam potato processing factory having to close down, and also listen to a blandly throwaway subordinate clause in a sentence about the constant contraction in agricultural employment." That is our field for expansion.

It may be that the Germans, or the Dutch or the Belgians have jobs of a different kind up their sleeves. Perhaps they can expand employment in heavy industry. Perhaps there are technological areas which they can more easily exploit than we can. They have not got 3,500,000 acres of derelict land. If they had, you would not hear anything from the Dutch or the German Ministers for Industry, Commerce and Energy about a contraction in agricultural employment. With their relatively low unemployment figures, if you gave the Dutch or the Germans 3,500,000 acres of derelict land, you would be very surprised at what they would do with it, and you would hear quickly enough about their unemployment figure falling. You would hear no more about the constant contraction of agricultural employment.

I know all about the difficulties of land structure, the difficulties of tenure, the constraints within which the Land Commission have to work, and so on, but that is the growth area and it is the only growth area we have. It is acknowledged that we are in fierce competition for mobile industry. We cannot succeed. Even if the IDA worked 24 hours a day—and no body works harder than the IDA; I have often complimented them in this House and I do so again—they could not succeed in the long run in over-coming all competition and in closing the employment gap by manufacturing industry alone. It cannot be done. The main assets, the real assets we have are the land and the sea. These are assets which the Fianna Fáil Government, by throwing away the 50-mile claim, by sabotaging it within a week of Mr. Fix-It. Mr. No Problems coming into Government. He sabotaged that claim——

——on which tens of thousands of jobs could possibly depend. They threw away the sea. Now they are throwing away the land. What Paddys we are. Just because the English, the French, the Germans and the Dutch experienced a fall in agricultural employment, where their land has been properly exploited for hundreds of years, the Paddys must look forward to the same thing. I am ashamed to be run by a party who think that way.

There is nothing the Deputy can do about it.

That is the only reason I am in politics. It does not pay me in any other way. As long as I am here, I will fight a party who think that way

It has got too rough for the Minister. He has left the House. He cannot take it.

The last thing I want to say bears on the general features of the economy and the general bearing of the economy's profile on our employment situation. I am reminded of a speech made by the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy on the budget. If you could imagine a member of the supreme Soviet coming in here and making this speech, you would get about that much understanding and about that much honesty. He came in here two weeks ago and made a budget speech in which he attributed absolutely, without exception, every single thing of a favourable kind in the economic indicators we have seen in the past eight or nine months to the advent of the Fianna Fáil Government. I know that is politics. We made mistakes. They won the election and good luck to them. Believe me, in my heart I do not grudge them a fair chance, and I will do nothing underhand, or dishonest, or unfair to make things difficult for them. When I meet that kind of thick attitude, that kind of thick, deceitful and ignorant approach to politics, I despair.

An Leas-cheann Comhairle

No Deputy or Minister should be addressed in that fashion. I will not let any Deputy refer to Deputy Kelly as being thick or dishonest and I will not allow Deputy Kelly to do so.

I know, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, you are a gentleman and I mean that sincerely. I have a document which is a measure of the kind of crookedness we have to deal with on this side of the House. On the domestic scene and for domestic consumption, it is all right to blame everything on the Coalition and it is all right to say: "Since we took office the sun has popped up over the horizon." If I had more time I would be able to enlarge on the symbolism of the cover of this official publication Ireland Today issued by the Department of Foreign Affairs. The smiling visage on page 2 is that of the Minister for Economic Planning and Development and, from internal evidence—I can pick references to figures which have changed since—I can tell he wrote this article about the beginning of February of this year. He said:

The recovery stems from renewed industrial activity and is export led ... This expansion was achieved despite growing international competition and the all-too-familiar lack of sufficient buoyancy in world markets ... this improvement reflects the slowing down in the rate of increase in world import prices and the recent strength of sterling. However, it is also the fruitful outcome of the income restraint achieved in 1977.

Is it not a great day for Ireland when at least in something intended for foreign consumption we get a bit of the truth from the Government? He never said that here. He never told us here that the difficulties we had, and still have, in regard to our economy, unemployment, and everything else, were to some extent, if not a very large extent, influenced by larger factors. There was not a word about that. Lies and half-truths and Izvestia stuff are good enough for us here. It is only when he would be ashamed to tell anything but the truth before a foreign audience that we get the real story.

The real story is that the employment possibilities this country has are enormous. They are not being grasped. An attempt is being made to create the impression that employment is being improved by the creation of a large number of public service jobs for which Governments in the old days would have apologised. They would have apologised for laying that burden on the people's backs. The real wealth of the country and the real trends of economic history cannot be discerned from anything we hear from the Government because they are afraid to face up to the truth. It is a sad reflection on the Government that they have to go to something intended for consumption by the Japs before we can get the truth.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 65; Níl, 36.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Kit.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, Niall.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Callanan, John.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Cogan, Barry.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Cowen, Bernard.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Murphy, Ciarán P.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Connor, Timothy C.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • Farrell, Joe.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzsimons, James N.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Fox, Christopher J.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Dennis.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Gibbons, Jim.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Keegan, Seán.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Killeen, Tim.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leonard, Tom.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Loughnane, William.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael J.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Bermingham, Joseph.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Joan.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Clinton, Mark.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Cosgrave, Michael J.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Deasy, Martin A.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, John F.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan-Monaghan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Kerrigan, Pat.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Mannion, John M.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Brien, William.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Ryan, John J.
  • Taylor, Frank.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • White, James.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies P. Lalor and Briscoe; Níl, Deputies McMahon and Bermingham.
Amendment declared carried.
Motion, as amended, put and agreed to.
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