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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 Jun 1979

Vol. 315 No. 3

Estimates, 1979. - Vote 46: Defence (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £116,005,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1979, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Defence, including certain services administered by that Office, for the pay and expenses of the Defence Forces; and for payment of certain grants-in-aid.
—(Minister for Defence).

When we moved the adjournment of the debate I was referring to the large volume of tanker traffic around our coasts and the continuing possibility of oil pollution from an accident to one of those vessels. I pointed out that up to last year such accidents had occurred in the main far from our shores. However, in October 1978 and January 1979 two such accidents occurred close to our coasts.

The Christos Bitas listed badly off the Rosslare Coast in October and it took the combined efforts of both ourselves and the British authorities to avert disaster. The Defence Forces, particularly the Naval Service, played a major role in this operation. The Defence Forces were again called into action in the tragic Betelgeuse incident in January. While it was unfortunately not possible to reduce the grave loss of life which occurred on this occasion the dangers of a major oil spillage had to be faced. Units of the Army and the Naval Service responded with a will and, thanks to their splendid efforts, the effects of the incident were combated and an even worse disaster averted. Great credit is due to all who participated in both salvage operations.

It is also proposed to expand the Air Corps capability for air surveillance. The two aircraft on lease at present have a purchase option. It has not yet been decided if this option will be exercised. The question of acquiring aircraft specially designed for us in a marine environment is at present under examination.

A sum of over £7½ million has been provided in the Estimates for 1979 towards fishery protection. There is also a provision of nearly £1 million to cover the cost of obtaining a replacement for the Dove aircraft.

The Government decided recently that the Air Corps should be provided with a twin jet-engined transport aircraft and a contract for the supply of a Hawker Siddeley 125 Series 700 aircraft for delivery late in 1979 has been concluded with British Aerospace. Pending delivery of the new aircraft a Hawker Siddeley 125 Series 600 aircraft has been leased from British Aerospace and was handed over to the Air Corps on 18 May 1979. Air Corps personnel are at present undergoing training on this aircraft which it is expected, will go into service early in July. This aircraft will be operated by the Air Corps on such duties as pilot training, search and rescue, air ambulance and, as necessary, the transport of Government Ministers and officials especially to European Community meetings in Europe. In addition to the crew, the aircraft has seating for eight passengers. I realise that this will provide an additional burden for the Air Corps, but I feel sure that they will cope with this task in the same efficient manner as they have coped with others in the past.

A wide variety of games and sporting activities are, at present, catered for throughout the Army. Sporting facilities and equipment have been greatly improved. Sports competitions are held at unit and command level, all-Army gymnastic competitions are held annually and adventure training is widely practised. Army teams competed in competitions organised by the International Military Sports Council in 1978 in Italy, Norway and Finland. The Defence Forces were the hosts for the cross-country championships which were held in Cork in March 1979 and these were very successful competitions. It is expected that Army teams will participate in further events during 1979.

The Army Equitation School had a very successful year in 1978. Army riders and horses competed in 16 international shows including events in North America. Captain Power was a member of the Irish team winning the Aga Khan Cup. Captain Power also qualified for the world championship. Army riders won 12 first places 13 second places, 16 third and 16 fourth places with a total of 124 places in international shows. In addition 45 provincial horse shows and gymkhanas were attended at home. The total prize money won in 1978 was £26,000.

I have introduced a number of measures to encourage greater participation by members of the Permanent Defence Force in sporting activities. In order that fully qualified Army personnel will be available for this purpose, two Army cadets have commenced a four year course of study at Thomond College, Limerick, leading to a degree in physical education. It is intended that additional military personnel will be assigned to this course in future years.

Pending the availability of qualified Army personnel, arrangements are being made for the employment on a full-time basis of four civilian physical education teachers. I am hopeful that these teachers will be available to the Defence Forces at an early date.

A total of 120 cadets and officers are undergoing various full-time courses at third level educational institutions. In 1978 a cadet scheme was introduced for the purpose of providing the Naval Service with qualified marine engineers. Five cadets were appointed under this scheme and are undergoing full-time training in the Cork Regional Technical College. Discussions have also taken place between officials of my Department and the college on the question of the provision of suitable courses at the college for navigation cadets. It is the practice to assign a number of personnel to courses of training in foreign military establishments and during 1978 such courses were attended in Britain, France, Germany and the United States.

Members of the Permanent Defence who, in their own time, attend approved second level and third level courses of education are refunded the tuition and examination fees involved. Noncommissioned officers and privates who undergo courses leading to the Department of Education day group certificate are refunded the cost of books and examination fees.

A scheme whereby personnel are registered with AnCO as apprentices in various trades such as fitter, motor mechanic, sheet metal worker, bricklayer, plasterer and painter/decorator. These personnel attend either full-time off-the-job training courses of day-release courses. With a view to assisting Army personnel in finding civilian employment on discharge I have arranged for a number of resettlement courses to be run in Army workshops on a pilot basis.

The drop in the strength of other ranks during 1978 was largely due to the fact that a substantial number of those enlisted during 1975 did not continue in service on completion of their three-year engagement. The number of men enlisted for general service during 1975 when the last national recruiting campaign took place was 3,426. A recruiting campaign was conducted during October and November 1978 and continued during January and February 1979. The campaign involved the use of TV and press advertising with local recruiting measures in the commands. Recruiting publicity commenced again last month highlighting the generous pay and allowances being paid to military personnel. I recently appointed an advertising agency to undertake an intensive recruiting campaign which should commence in the near future. A separate recruiting campaign for the Naval Service is being conducted in view of the importance of that service.

I rith na bliana 1978 rinneadh iarrachtaí chun úsáid na Gaeilge sna Fórsaí Cosanta a leathnú agus go mór mhór chun fir óga ó na limistéirí Gaeltachta a spreagadh chun teacht isteach sna Buan Oglaigh. Dá réir sin cuireadh greasacht earraíochta ar bun chun cainteoirí dúchasacha óga ón nGaeltacht a gríosadh chun liostáil san Chéad Cathlán i nGaillimh agus bunaíodh campa traenála Samhraidh ar Inis Mór do chomhaltaí an Chéad Cathláin. Cuireadh ranganna Gaeilge agus comórtais díospóireachta i nGaeilge ar siúl sna Ceannasaíochta. Ins na comórtaisí le haghaidh ceapacháin do dhaltas san Arm agus san Seirbhís Chabhlaigh cuireadh roinnt ceapachán ar leathaoibh d'iarratasóirí a raibh cáilíocht áirithe i nGaeilge acu. Tá cúram faoi leith tugtha d'oifigeach i ngach Ceannasaiocht chun slite eile d'aimsiú chun feabhas a chur ar úsáid na Gaeilge sna fórsaí. Measaim féin go bhfuil tábhacht ar leith ag baint leis an teanga maidir leis na Fórsaí Cosanta agus tá sé ar intinn agam go leanfar go treán leis na hiarrachtaí chun leas na Gaeilge a chur chun cinn sna Fórsaí Cosanta i rith 1979.

The unprecedented sum of £4.240 million is being provided this year for building and maintenance works. This represents an increase of almost 50 per cent on the allocation last year. It will enable significant improvements to be made in the living and working conditions of the Defence Forces while, at the same time, contributing towards job creation.

It is my intention that all unsuitable Army married quarters will be replaced by modern housing. This is a big undertaking but a good start has been made. A scheme of 50 houses has just been completed at the Curragh Camp, and the question of building additional houses at the camp is under active consideration. Four houses were recently built at Arbour Hill, Dublin, and work has commenced on a scheme of 14 houses at McGee Barracks, Kildare. A contract will shortly be placed for 20 houses at Dún Ui Mhaoiliosa, Galway. Earlier this year I inspected the married quarters at Cathal Brugha Barracks, Dublin, and decided to initiate a programme for the phased replacement of the quarters with modern dwellings.

The first phase of the scheme, providing for 12 dwellings, should be commenced this year. The question of erecting new married quarters at other locations is also under consideration.

The single soldier is not being overlooked in the matter of improved living accommodation. New billet buildings are under construction at Finner Camp, Dundalk Barracks, Gormanston Camp, Dún Ui Mhaoiliosa and Fitzgerald Camp, Fermoy. In other locations, existing billets continue to be improved, where practicable, by dividing large rooms into cubicles, the provision of individual bedhead lighting, installation of central heating and improvements to sanitary and ablution facilities.

I referred earlier to improvements in sporting facilities. As part of the Department's building programme a fine new sports centre is at present being constructed at Finner Camp and the building of new squash courts at the Naval Base, Haulbowline, has just been completed. I am particularly pleased to announce that the old pavilion at the Army Athletics Ground at the Phoenix Park is to be replaced by a new pavilion which will provide excellent modern amenities. I expect that a contract for this building will be placed within the next couple of months. I am also having consideration given to the question of providing new facilities at other centres.

Significant works in progress at the Curragh Camp include a new cookhouse and dining hall complex to cater for all ranks at Pearse and MacDonagh Barracks. A transport maintenance complex is under construction at Clarke Barracks and I anticipate that a contract will shortly be placed for a Curragh Command vehicle workshops to cater for repairs. Planning for the new Ceannt Barracks at the Curragh Camp is well advanced and I expect that a draft plan will soon be available.

The facilities for the Air Corps at Casement Aerodrome are to be improved. A building development plan has been drawn up and work will commence as soon as possible on the building of a new technical stores and an extension to the apprentices' hostel. The question of carrying out further works is at present being considered.

At the Naval Base, Haulbowline, improvements are being effected in the working conditions of civilian employees. Further improvements at the dockyard and for accommodation for additional Naval Service personnel are being planned. The provision of a new military post at Cavan, in replacement of the existing barracks which is very old, is at present under active consideration.

The sail training vessel Creidne completed its full programme of cruises during 1978 despite the fact that the weather during the season was the worst experienced since the sail training scheme began about ten years ago. Creidne spent a total of 156 days on cruises covering a total of 5,296 miles and 121 adults, 170 boys and 46 girls went to sea on the vessel. They came from many parts of the country and in some cases were in groups. There was, for example a group of young cadets from the Naval Service, a group from An Slua Muirí, a group from the vocational school in Ballyfermot, trainee fishermen from the Aran Islands and young employees of the Bank of Ireland. Unfortunately, all who applied for berths on cruises could not be accommodated—there were about 50 persons on the waiting list for cruises during the summer months.

The highlight of the 1978 season was the international race of sail training vessels from Great Yarmouth to Oslo Fjord in August. In this race Creidne finished in 12th position out of eighteen vessels in her class, a very creditable performance in view of the types of vessel against which she was competing. Apart from the race itself, Creidne participated in a Parade of Sail in Oslo.

Another full programme of cruises is being carried out this year. Once again some of the cruises include visits to ports abroad. The big event will be the international race of sail training vessels from Fowey on the south coast of Cornwall to the Isle of Man in late July/early August. Creidne will also be taking part in an international race from the Isle of Man to the Clyde commencing on 8 August 1979.

Work on the building of the new sail training vessel Asgard II at the shipyard of John Tyrell and Sons Ltd., Arklow, is proceeding satisfactorily. The keel was laid on 26 April 1979 and it is estimated that the planking of the vessel will be completed by August 1979 and the decking by the end of the year. Asgard II should be ready for delivery in the summer of 1980. Capable of carrying 25 persons, the new vessel will greatly extend the scope of the sail training scheme.

The historic vessel Asgard which was used for sail training purposes from 1968 to 1974 when it became unseaworthy, was transferred to Kilmainham Jail on 1 April 1979 in accordance with a decision of the Government that the vessel should be presented to the Kilmainham Jail Historical Museum on the basis of an indefinite loan, for exhibition to the public. After a lean-to roof has been erected over the vessel and a viewing platform provided, Asgard will be formally handed over to the museum.

Provision is made in subhead G of the Defence Estimate for a nett sum of £825,000 for Civil Defence purposes. The amount voted last year was £504,000. The additional provision this year is required for the purchase of much-needed equipment and towards the completion of the programme of Civil Defence Control Centres.

The Civil Defence organisation consisting, as it does, of voluntary personnel merits our praise and encouragement and I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the local authorities for their achievements in the development of the organisation. The fall-out exercise which was held in February last and televised through the courtesy of RTE involved not only the Civil Defence Warden Service throughout the country but also elements of the Defence Forces, the Garda Síochána, the Meteorological Service and the Irish Lights Service and proved to be a useful test of the strength of a major component of the Civil Defence organisation. Other exercises and competitions are planned for the present year with a view to strengthening the rescue, casualty, welfare and auxiliary fire service elements of Civil Defence.

Five hundred and one thousand pounds of the sum provided is required to meet the cost of grants to local authorities—at the rate of 70 per cent —on their outlay on administration, recruitment and training of volunteers and on the storage, servicing and maintenance of equipment. Provision is also made for the purchase of new equipment.

The active co-operation of the Irish Red Cross Society, the Order of Malta and the St. John Ambulance Brigade with Civil Defence has continued and I wish to record here my appreciation of these societies' contributions.

I must also record my special appreciation of the response the Irish Red Cross Society has given to the Government's recent request to set up a reception centre to cater for the intial reception and care of Indo-Chinese refugees. As Deputies are aware the Government have decided to accept 100 of these refugees for resettlement here. I am confident that, with the help of the Irish Red Cross Society and of those other voluntary societies who have particular experience and knowledge of conditions in Indo-China, these unfortunate people will soon build a new life for themselves in Ireland.

The Army Pensions Estimate for the sum of £15,774,000 is also before the House. The corresponding figure for last year, taking into account a Supplementary Estimate for £800,000 was £15,082,000. This represents an increase of £692,000. The Estimate includes a provision of £118,000 towards the cost of the increase in pensions and allowances which will come into operation from 1 July 1979 in accordance with the principle of bringing all public service pensions up to the rates in force on that date.

The main increases are: £104,000 in subhead B—wound and disability pensions; £564,000 in subhead E—pensions and gratuities for members of the Permanent Defence Force; £153,000 in subhead L—free travel, free electricity, free television licence and free telephone rental subsidy; £110,000 in subhead M—funeral grants. These increases are offset in the main by reductions of: £118,000 in subhead D—Military service pensions; £128,000 in subhead G—special allowances.

Deputies may be interested to know that there are 4,300 widows of military service pensioners in receipt of allowances equal to one-half their deceased husband's pension, subject to a minimum of £155 a year. The average rate of allowance is £228 a year. There are 900 widows of deceased soldiers in receipt of pensions under the pension schemes—contributory and ex gratia—which I introduced last year.

I regret that the numbers of special allowance holders continue to fall. There are at present 6,600 special allowances on pay and the average allowance is £322 a year.

In accordance with the policy of the Government to improve whenever possible the benefits available to veterans of the War of Independence, provision was made in the budget for the following improvements which will come into operation on 1 July 1979: (a) a separate increase in special allowance of £100 a year over and above the budgetary increase; (b) a doubling of the funeral grant from £100 to £200 and its extension to all holders of the duly awarded service medal; (c) an extension of the free telephone rental subsidy to a veteran living with his wife, or with an invalid, or with an old age, blind, or widowed pensioner or with a person residing with him for the purpose of providing constant care and attention. If there is any further information which Deputies may require I will be glad to supply it in the course of my reply to the debate.

It is with some regret that I stand here for the last time as spokesman for Defence. I have been moved to Fisheries and I will not be expected to reply to the Minister for Defence for the next couple of years. I thank the Minister and the staff in the Army, the Navy and the Air Corps for their co-operation over the last few years and for the briefings they gave me when I visited the Army camps. As a new party spokesman on Defence I had very little knowledge of the Department and my experience had been educational as well as interesting. It changed my whole attitude to the functions and the importance of the Department which at present is probably our most vital Department. We have a Border to patrol and we are also an island, so we must not under estimate the tremendous work of the officers and men in the Defence Forces. I, like the Minister, compliment the men at home and the men serving in the UN forces in the Lebanon and in Cyprus.

I would encourage young men to make their careers in the Army, the Navy or the Air Corps where the pay and the facilities are first class. We have not spent enough money on advertising careers in the Defence Forces and we have not outlined strongly enough the tremendous opportunities that exist in the Defence Forces. I do not complain about the pay and the facilities. Nobody can say that the Army is badly paid as they were ten years ago. We should encourage young men to join the Army not just for three or four years but to follow a permanent career. We have good jobs to offer them and they should become tomorrow's new patriots.

We are dealing here with the Army, the Navy, the Air Corps and the FCA and I will deal with these four categories separately. As spokesman for Defence, I had the privilege to visit most of the Army barracks, to visit the Naval Base, Haulbowline, the Baldonnel Air Base and so on. I also visited St. Bricin's, the Cadet School in Galway and the UN forces in Cyprus. As well as that I visited a Women's Army camp in Camberlaine and Guildford on the understanding that I would be speaking to the Minister in a few months' time when he introduces a new Bill to set up a new Women's Corps here. I visited the British Military Attaché in Berlin and at first hand I looked at the refugee problem in Thailand in South-East Asia. During my contribution here I hope to cover all these areas and tell the Minister what I feel should be done.

My greatest criticism relates to the small number of recruits enlisting in the Army. The Minister in his speech said that he envisaged an Army of something in the region of under 15,000, but he did not say that we have 15,000 on our establishment at present. The Minister knows as well as I do that the present establishment is far short of this magical figure of 15,000. I, like the Minister, am concerned that we are not getting the young 18 to 20 year olds into the Army, the Navy or the Air Corps. The Minister should spend more money to launch a proper advertising campaign in the national and local press and in the Manpower and AnCO offices, where many of our young people go to look for employment in order to hammer home the message that they should join the Army for a better life.

Everybody concerned with the Army is perturbed because of the numbers leaving after their three year stint has been served. There is something wrong with the establishment when we do not decide to give more service pay to encourage soldiers to stay on after so much money has been spent on their training. We are encouraging young people to sign on for three years and as soon as the money has been spent on their training and they have become useful to the nation as trained personnel, whether in the Navy, Army or Air Corps, they leave when their period has been completed, not because they are dissatisfied with the conditions but because they are not given incentives, as they would get in private employment, to stay on for further periods. I appeal to the Minister to offer them bonuses after their initial period of training to encourage them to stay on for five, or possibly ten or 15 years. At the moment there is a massive wastage of trained manpower.

As far as conditions are concerned, a Minister or an Opposition spokesman could not be satisfied with them. However, in all fairness we must agree that they have been improved considerably in recent years, particularly by Deputy Donegan, who was the first Minister for Defence to begin to improve Army conditions, in Donegal, in Cork, in Kildare and elsewhere. I will deal with Army housing later on.

My next point relates to arms. All military men agree that we have as good light arms as any nation in the EEC or in NATO, but they will also agree that our heavy armaments are practically non-existent. The Minister last year told us he was getting Timoney armoured vehicles and tanks. It is about time we began to think about improving our heavy armaments position. At the moment we have one tank in the Curragh which can do sorties around the camp but which would not be able to travel from the Curragh to Dublin. This is a serious defect, particularly when we have a land border. I hope the Minister will proceed to spend money on the provision of heavy armament.

I am sure the Minister joins with us—he did not refer to it in his opening statement—in expressing sympathy with the relatives of the victims of the Glen of Imaal tragedy. I am disappointed the Minister did not tell us about the steps he intends to take, if any, to ensure there will not be a recurrence. It is not good enough to post notices at the entry to the glen. I suggest that the Department of Defence should circularise all guest-houses and the hostel in the glen with notices about the dangers of lifting anything in this tragic glen, so that both students and tourists will be beware.

In my constituency about two soldiers per year have been killed on the road between Bundoran and Ballyshannon while walking on the path going and coming from Finner Camp. The Minister should take immediate steps to ensure there will not be more deaths on this three-mile death stretch. He should ensure, no matter what the cost, that not one more soldier will be killed on that road. Both there and in the Glen of Imaal it would not cost too much to ensure the safety of people and soldiers.

In regard to the Naval Service, the Minister said £7½ million is being spent on fishery protection. Am I to take it that that money is part of the £30 million the EEC contribute to us? If I am correct the Minister was being less than honest with us because the £7½ million he mentioned is only a fraction of EEC money being juggled back into our economy. As I said, we are being given £30 million by the EEC to buy boats and aircraft to protect our fishing waters. Last year I mentioned that I did not think that EEC money was enough because we are getting a grant for buying aircraft and boats but we are not getting anything for the repair of them. If this limit was established by the EEC surely we are entitled to eight-ninths of the total cost of the purchase, manning and repair of the aircraft, the boats and the helicopters. Other members should pay their share.

I am gravely concerned about the numbers joining the Naval Service. The Minister 18 months ago estimated that by the end of 1978 there would be more than 1,000 officers and men in the Naval Service and estimated that by the end of 1979 that number would grow to 1,500, but we are all aware that we have not reached the figure of 1,000. In fact, we are far short of it. There is only one way to encourage young people to join the Naval Service; we must mount a publicity campaign pointing out the tremendous benefits there are in a career in the Naval Service. It is possible that our Naval Service is being given a lopsided role. The role of that service seems to be the protection of fishing vessels and the keeping out of non-EEC boats. Surely our first priority must be to defend our waters and our shores. It would be bad for us to spend all the money available to ensure that our naval boats have small guns to keep out poaching Spanish trawlers or the like. The Minister should investigate the possibility of buying a proper destroyer or battleship so that we would be in a position to defend the island because our fishery protection vessels would not be able to do much for us.

I should like to compliment the Naval Service on organising a trip to Keel last year. Those who went on the trip gained tremendous experience. I always encourage people to go abroad to see how people in the same field operate. I should like to know if the £7½ million referred to by the Minister come from the EEC. I understand that the Air Corps have been given money by the EEC to purchase a new "Dove" aircraft. The Minister appears to be taking the credit for purchasing that aircraft, but I should like to remind him that negotiations in connection with that transaction took place long before the Coalition left office. I welcome the purchase of that aircraft because it appears that at present we have but one Seaking aircraft to protect our 200-mile limit.

Last year I suggesed to the Minister that he consider the purchase of a dual helicopter. I pointed out then that I was concerned about what would happen if we had a tragedy at night. We are all aware that since then we had a major tragedy at Bantry Bay. It is sad to reflect that the RAF had to be called in because we did not have a dual purpose helicopter to do night work. I should like to compliment the Minister on deciding to purchase such a helicopter now. It is important that we should be able to carry out surveillance and rescue work at night time. We must have a proper protection and rescue fleet. It is interesting to note that American aircraft carriers have up to 70 such dual helicopters and that we can only afford to buy one. I hope that within a couple of years we will be talking about a fleet of such helicopters. I accept that they are expensive but we must be in a position to save lives.

I do not believe that we are taking on enough cadets in the Air Corps. We are also short in the number of mechanical trainees we have. Something will have to be done to increase the number of cadets. We are now talking about bringing in an extra aircraft, an extra helicopter and an extra jet and for that reason we must increase our figures dramatically. The Minister should tell the House how many will be in the Army, the Naval Service and the Air Corps by the end of the year. We must have a plan and decide on the number of people in those services in peace time.

The Minister mentioned that it was the intention of the Government to buy a new jet for Ministers on EEC work. He mentioned the cost of the "Dove" and the cost of other items, but he did not mention the cost of the jet. Surely, we are entitled to know the cost of that jet. I understand that it will cost about £2,250,000. Is that figure correct? The taxpayers are entitled to know the cost. I am sure our taxpayers accept that Ministers are a very valuable commodity and that we cannot afford to have them hanging around Continental airports due to fog, bad weather or technical difficulties when they should be at home looking after the terrible problems that face us here.

Another point is that there are different air strips under the control of the Department of Defence at present which could be opened to the business community. Naturally these people would have to be passed by security 48 hours beforehand and there would have to be an inspection of the aircraft on landing. In the rural areas these air strips exist and could be opened to the general business life, with a chance of encouraging more industrialists to our western sea board in particular. I understand as much as the Minister does the necessity for security and I am not saying that should be in any way lax as far as these small planes would be concerned. What I am saying is that we have a Department of Defence, we have a first class armed force and there is no problem in properly organising this.

On the other problems facing the Department of Defence—and I think that even Deputy Power will agree—the first, as far as the men are concerned, is their housing conditions. I suggested last year, and suggest again, that discussions should take place with different building societies with a view to getting loans for officers and men to encourage them to build their own houses. I would go further to suggest to the Minister that a cash grant should be given as another incentive to the permanent members of the Defence Forces to encourage them to build their own houses outside the Department altogether. At present, there is a £1,000 straight grant for a new home. Perhaps, the Minister could also give £500 or £1,000 extra grant to encourage these people to build their own homes outside the Army.

The Minister's present directive is to build more married quarters in all the different barracks, and I do not disagree with that. However, he will have a great problem when these people retire from the Army in 20 or 25 years' time and are faced with the problem of buying another home. Already in Kildare and other barracks they have this major problem of overholding. The Minister, as well as building houses in the different barracks, should be encouraging the thrifty people who want to own their own houses to built them. The Department at present have thousands of acres of land lying beside the barracks. On the perimeter of that land sites could be made available for the officers and men—if you want to divide them into the two categories.

The greatest problem of all is getting people to stay in the Army. They must have proper conditions, proper pay, and services too, and incentives as far as housing is concerned. We must be proud of our Army, and it is an Army to be proud of. I could talk about the barracks in Galway; I could talk about the barracks in Cork; I could talk about the barracks in Dublin. As far as the barracks in Cavan is concerned, I welcome the decision which the Minister was pressurised into taking when some of us visited Cavan barracks last year. This barracks was an utter disgrace and no place for any member of the Defence Forces to have had to live in for the last ten or 15 years. I welcome the fact that this is under active consideration. I hope the Minister, when replying, will tell us what is "active consideration". I want to see blocks being started in Cavan Barracks in the next couple of months, so that the men will no longer live in such terrible conditions. I make no apologies to the House for spotlighting the need for a new barracks, on my return from Cavan. I was utterly disgusted with what I saw there.

The Minister quite rightly stressed the need for proper sports complexes, encouraging these and providing the money. I must compliment him on this. I am not going to down him all the time. He is a good Minister doing a job but, unfortunately, getting some of his priorities wrong. However, he is interested in sport. We must give the Army people these sports facilities. The vast majority of these people are young men with plenty of the boundless energy that we had 15 or 20 years ago, which they could expand in the sports complexes, the squash courts, the football fields and the handball alleys and so on. Everyone will agree that the more sporting facilities we give the members of the Defence Forces, the better men they will be and the better shape they will be in. The Minister for Health would agree that if you get somebody interested in sport, there is far less likelihood that he will drink or smoke and he is much more inclined to take his sport seriously. I would like to see every barracks in this country equipped with proper sporting facilities.

I have another criticism to make as far as the Department of Defence is concerned. This is the rationalisation—if I may call it that—of the Border barracks, in particular. We are now, we hope, approaching more peaceful times and the role of the Army will probably change away from the Border areas and back to their areas of command. The Minister must plan exactly what to do with some of the present Border barracks. I do not wish to be quoted as saying that some of these should be closed down; all I am saying is that some must, sooner or later, be closed down because they are only very temporary accommodation as far as the Army is concerned. The Minister should make a statement, letting the hierarchy in the armed forces know how long a temporary barracks is going to exist, particularly in the Border areas.

The longer these barracks are there, the harder it will be to move the people from that particular area. For example, there is a barracks at Cootehill at present and a new barracks is being built in Cavan. If it is foreseen that the Cootehill barracks people will be transferred back to Cavan when the new barracks is built in four or five years' time, if a soldier marries a girl from Cootehill, he will not buy a house or put down a mortgage on a house in the Cootehill area. He will think of the future, when he will be moved to Cavan in a few years' time. I have ten examples I could give of barracks right around the Border where this problem exists. The sooner the Minister, whoever he is, issues a plan and lets the young men in those barracks know the exact position regarding their future, the better for the Army and the better for the people concerned.

This nettle must be grasped, and the sooner the better. The Minister must make up his mind whether he wants many substandard barracks or fewer barracks that are better equipped. This is a decision for the Minister, not for me. He should tell the officers and the men what he intends to do so far as the substandard barracks are concerned. I have mentioned Cavan and I am glad to see that the matter is under active consideration. I hope the Minister will be as active about that matter as he has been with regard to some of his sporting activities.

Earlier I asked the Minister what he sees as the total establishment for the Navy, the Air Corps and for the Army. This is an important question that needs to be answered now. We must have a target, whether it be 15,000 personnel or 17,000. We will excuse the Minister if he is only a few hundred short of the target but it is very difficult to understand why we cannot get people into the armed forces at a time when there is high unemployment. The young people would have the benefit of a well-paid job. If there is one thing that the Army does for any young man it is that it knocks the corners off him, it smartens him up, it imposes discipline. One can nearly always point to the man who has been trained in the Army because, as the old saying goes, he is head and shoulders above the others. At a time of high unemployment there is no excuse for shortage of personnel in the armed forces.

I had not intended dealing with the women's corps but shall make some comments on this matter in view of the fact that the Minister referred to it. One of the commitments in the Fianna Fáil manifesto was that a women's corps would be initiated without undue delay. Two years have passed but we have not yet got females in the Army. I was glad to hear from the Minister that this matter is being attended to. However, my criticism is that there has been no planning with regard to this matter. I do not see how we can have a women's corps when we have not yet advertised for suitable officers. Is it envisaged that the officers and the women will be taken on together? If this happens it means that none of them will have any experience. Last year the Minister should have advertised for 12 or 20 suitable officers for the women's corps. They could have been sent to the USA, to Israel or to Camberley or Guildford. These people must be properly trained in order to take charge of the women's corps. I presume there will be some advertisements issued in the newspapers before we next talk on this matter.

I understand the Minister has given a commitment that the number will be 400. That is about 10 per cent of the English establishment. People often ask what can women do in the Army. At least one advantage would be that the men would be tidier in their appearance. When I was in England I counted 37 different jobs being carried out by women. They were not doing combat work, hand-to-hand fighting or they were not handling arms and I take it that the Minister will not include such activities in the work of the women's corps. However, I noted that women were engaged in the following areas: in hairdressing, working in bands, as postal officers and switchboard operators; they were working on signals as supply clerks, stewardesses, in branches of medicine, as receptionists, cooks, working in first aid, on map reading and there were women in charge of drill in the parade ring. Women were engaged as driving instructors, driving cars, lorries and tanks and they were employed as recruitment replacement officers. If we had female recruitment replacement officers, it might encourage more people to go for interviews to the National Manpower offices. Women were engaged in work at radar installations, and on telephones; they worked as military police, on guard duty and there were women handling dogs and horses. These are some of the things that the women were doing and nobody can say that there is not work for them in our Army.

In comparison with England the retirement age here with regard to Army personnel is too high. Here the retirement age is 65 years but it is 55 years in England. We could retire some of our senior officers earlier. We could give them a pension because they deserve this after their many years of work for the nation. It would be a better incentive for the younger men if there were more of them working at senior rank. Up to last year there was only one colonel, Billy Ringrose, under the age bracket of 57-60 years.

I welcome the decision of the Minister to change the rank structure. It is high time that the title of the Chief of Staff was changed to general. At the time I argued with the Minister that he should have changed the rank of commandant to major but he told me it was not changed because of our history. I disagree but admit it is only a small point. When our commandants are abroad —and this is general knowledge—they do not call themselves commandants, they call themselves majors. The people in Cyprus and The Lebanon do not know what commandants are. The Minister might look at this and it could be written in to the regulations that a man could be called major or commandant. The Minister told me that historically commandants were commandants, but I think we deal too much with history and do not look enough to the future.

There has been a big improvement in the on-going conditions in the Army over the last five, six or ten years. The general public do not realise that many camps offer the ordinary men three choices of lunch. Very few hotels offer their clients such a choice. It is worth noting that some of the sleeping quarters, for example the new sleeping quarters at Finner Camp, could be compared with a very good hotel. Most of them have central heating. I am sure none of us will be happy until the old billy stoves are done away with and proper central heating is installed in all sleeping and living quarters. Many of these barracks are being divided into different units, perhaps four, six, or eight in each unit instead of 30 or 40 men sleeping back to back as happened not too long ago. Everybody must agree that a great deal of progress has been made in the accommodation we are offering non-married Army personnel.

The canteens are a credit to the NCOs and the men who ploughed back money into their bars and entertainment facilities. I have been in many barracks where the bars were as good as any bar in Baggot Street or Leeson Street. The men take a personal pride in showing off their living conditions and what they have done in the last five or six years. They are to be congratulated on raising funds and spending them wisely.

Nobody will be satisfied until every barracks in the country has a proper sports complex which will provide facilities for football, gym, squash, boxing and so on. Some of our sportsmen in the Army, Navy and the Air Corps have done extremely well in different competitions.

The Minister mentioned 4,800 military sorties that have taken place in the Border areas in the last 12 months. When we are travelling in Border areas we see the Army now and again and it is hard to realise they have done so much work. They may have found illicit bombs, guns or cars going to or coming from the North. The Army deserve the highest praise for the difficult work they are doing in those areas at the present very difficult time. I am sure the Minister, like me, would like to congratulate them on a job well done.

While agreeing with the Minister's announcement about the FCA I do not think he has gone far enough. He has divorced the FCA from what we call the establishment—the actual armed forces. This will be a separate unit from the armed forces. Until now there has not been any direct contact to the top for the FCA. Now they will have direct contact right up the line. If this is so, I welcome it and hope the officers who will take control of the FCA will be fully paid Army people with special responsibility for organising the FCA.

As has been stated time and time again, the FCA will do surveillance work. In other words, they will be the watchdog for the country areas. They will report back in times of stress or war or if there is trouble, and all these men will be vetted. I agree with what the Minister has done but I am disappointed, too. To give an FCA man four weeks' training is inadequate and laughable. He should have introduced a new scheme whereby people who hope to join the FCA would be given a full year's training as a proper Army man. At the end of that year he would be given a bonus for completing a year's service and would be called on to perform FCA duties, as happens at present. He would also be given priority if he wanted to make the Army a full-time career by joining the cadets. If the FCA is to play a meaningful role the men will have to be trained in the proper, modern, sophisticated methods now used in times of war. The Minister should consider something along these lines.

This is a great chance to mould our 18-year-olds and upwards and to give our young women a proper discipline, smartness, sense of duty and feeling that they are doing something worthwhile for their country. I am not saying this should be compulsory but this carrot-dangling at the end should give them an incentive to join. The navy and Air Corps are short of mechanical engineers and if we got such men into the FCA, who knows, we might have enough people to retrain into the arts and crafts which are needed in the forces. I sincerely ask the Minister to have these people properly trained because the quicker they are properly trained the better.

I understand the Department of Defence are taking control of the 100 refugees coming here and that they will be working hand in hand with the Irish Red Cross. I want to compliment the Department who did this job before when we had very difficult refugees coming from Northern Ireland. First of all I would like to compliment the Department of Defence who held this role before when refugees came down from Northern Ireland because they were difficult refugees at that time. I see no reason why the Department of Defence cannot take control of the present refugees. The Government have committed themselves to taking in 100 refugees. I cannot understand why we are not taking in the 400 refugees that were talked about four months ago. I hope that this 100 we are talking about now is just the first 100 of that 400.

I have visited refugee camps in places like Thailand where one might see 40,000 or 50,000 homeless refugees, poor and starving, looked after by eight or ten white Europeans. These people are completely at a loss; they have no work; they have no food. I know of one camp where 15 of them have died since January. It is high time that the western developed nations took their fair share of responsibility for this massive problem in the Third World. Unless we do we are going to have problems eventually in the Third World countries, because it will not be too long until the Communists take over the whole lot. The sooner a small country like Ireland takes her fair share of these refugees the better.

I cannot understand the reason given for taking only 100 refugees. It was that we had no employment for them. There is employment in the armed forces where we are short of people. I am not saying everybody would be suitable, but these people coming in could be vetted. Already we have employment which they would be very glad to get instead of having to live off a few miserly pieces of bread and bowls of rice as at present. Thought must be given to this.

At present there are many couples here looking for children to adopt and they cannot get them because there are very few adoptable children here. Could we not start to take in some of these children from the Third World countries? We have people willing and ready to take them. Thought must be given to this type of thing. I wish the Department of Defence well with the Red Cross and I will be looking with interest to see how displaced persons will be resettled here. I have no doubt, because I have met them, that they are honest people. They are good looking, fine featured people. If they are given a chance they will do well.

That brings me to the Lebanon. I would like to compliment our forces in the Lebanon for a job which they have done very well. We now have 2,100 people in the Lebanon and some of them have gone back a second time. It is a very difficult job in a difficult place—at present the heat level must be terrible—and we have dedicated soldiers who are going out there for experience. I visited in St. Bricin's one of them who had been wounded there. I asked him would he like to go back again. He said he would go back in the morning if he got the chance because he had got more experience there in the last six months than he had got in his entire career in the Army. None of us object to this. We all agree that our officers and men need the chance to get the experience so that they can compare themselves with other soldiers in other nations.

When I visited Cyprus I was talking to Major-General Quinn and he told me that the Irish soldiers are acknowledged to be some of the finest soldiers in the world. It is not so much that we are great fighters but in a peace-keeping role we have what we call a great gift of the gab and sometimes the tongue can save many a life. He said to me that the Irish soldiers were accepted as the very best soldiers that had served with the United Nations. What other credit can we give to our soldiers than to say that they are doing a great job for their country and to carry on doing it.

Like the Minister we have all got our pet hobbies. The Minister was talking about sail training. We welcome the building of the Asgard. We are all looking forward to seeing it launched in the next couple of years.

My pet hobby is the equestrian business. I should like to compliment the fine team of young officers we have in McKee Barracks at present. I wonder how many people here realise that last year Ireland won the Aga Khan Cup? I wonder how many of them realise that there was one Irish officer, Con Power, who did extremely well on that occasion? I wonder how many of them realise that the Army jumping team had 124 places in the last 12 months and have lifted a total of £26,000? The placings and the money are great, but look at the advertisement that that has given the entire bloodstock industry in Ireland. The money just does not count for that because the position is that we have the finest horses and riders in the world. We should devote time and the money to seeing that the Army have the best riders and the best horses. I know this is being done, but even more money should be spent on the equestrian centre because it is the greatest advertisement this country could have as the home of the jumper, the home of the hunter and the home of the racer.

Also I should like to compliment the Civil Defence organisation on the probably thankless work that they have been doing. We must remember that the Civil Defence do not get money. They get a grant through the Defence Forces and through the local authorities, but they really do not get money as such and our thanks to them must also be put on the record of this House.

Finally I should like to wish Deputy Donal Creed, my successor, all the best in the Department of Defence.

In the very brief time at my disposal I shall have to be rather more telegrammatic than I would otherwise have hoped to be. I hope the Minister and the Government officials will not take it amiss if my speech is to some extent critical because I mean to be complimentary as well as critical. They will have to take the compliments for granted because I want to get some of the criticisms across and I hope it will be understood as being constructive criticism.

It is an irony that our defence budget, in percentage terms, is increasing faster than the defence budget of any other country in Europe. It is quite an achievement, but in another sense it is a sad reflection on the society and the times we live in. It is plain that the role of the Army is changing. It is not really an Army which is destined to invade anybody. It is not really an Army which is destined to defend this country against nuclear attack. It seems to me that its two main roles now are that related to possible involvements with the UN peace-keeping forces and that of internal security. I would imagine that the overall shape and direction of the Army is being directed now along these lines. It would like to see, in addition, perhaps an association with the Civil Defence, some kind of investigation into the possibility of training not just the Army but our citizenry in general in the techniques of non-violent resistence. I feel that this is a valid option for a small country such as ours and that it could well be incorporated under the general aegis of the Minister, perhaps in the area that I have talked about.

I am glad there is to be a Women's Corps, but I must sound a note of warning. A Women's Corps will not serve the purpose for which it was intended if the only function that it will serve is to allocate to women within the Army jobs that men in the Army do not want to do. That would be a denial of its functions, a denial of any real division of responsibility within the Army. Unless we have a real division of responsibility within the Army, the Women's Corps will very soon become a second class army and I do not think the Minister or anybody else would like to see that happen.

In relation to fishery protection, I must put a serious question mark against the Minister's policy of expending so much money on all-weather fishery protection vessels when what we need desperately to stop the poaching that is plundering our salmon stocks at the moment are fast inshore vessels with small crews who can catch the poachers who are operating this kind of work. I believe we are investing far too much money in the former area at the expense of the latter. The whole policy really needs to be looked at again.

On the question of sail training I cannot do more than totally commend the activities of Captain Healy and the other people involved in this enterprise. I would ask the Minister, when the new vessel comes into commission, to see to it that Captain Healy and the other people associated with this venture get the full administrative backup that they need to ensure that this service is fully availed of by people within the community.

Debate adjourned.
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