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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 Jun 1979

Vol. 315 No. 3

Estimates, 1979. - Vote 5: An Chomhairle Ealaíon.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £1,750,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of December 1979 for a Grant to An Chomhairle Ealaíon.

There is also a supplementary estimate.

Under the Arts Acts, 1951 and 1973, An Chomhairle Ealaíon is the main State body entrusted with responsibility for promoting the knowledge, appreciation and practice of the arts. It is the principal channel of State funding for artistic enterprises and I regard it as of prime importance to ensure that it is well funded to fulfil that function.

I believe it can be fairly said that I have done so in 1978 and am doing so in 1979. Between the main Estimate and the Supplementary Estimate this year, I am giving the council an increase of over 40 per cent, one of the highest annual increases they have ever received. Taken with last year's improved subvention, I have increased the grant to the council by about 75 per cent over the two years.

This improved funding is essential if the council are to sustain the wide range of worthwhile activities in the arts which they have been vigorously promoting in recent years. I recently appointed a new council under a distinguished chairman, Dr. James White, and with their efforts and the efforts of so many others who are engaged in the arts throughout the country, we can be assured that these funds will be put to very good account.

The council are statutorily independent in relation to the disbursement by them of the annual grant-in-aid which they receive from the Oireachtas. The appraisal and assessment of the competing merits of individual applicant bodies are by far the most daunting tasks which the council face. The members of the council, who all operate in a voluntary and unpaid capacity, deserve our highest praise for the responsible and effective way in which they discharge this duty.

The need for the Supplementary Estimate this year was borne in on me by the many theatre and arts enterprises which I found to be in difficulty and which the council did not have the money to assist. Since last autumn, a study group has been reviewing the question of State aid to the arts with specific reference to some of the bodies which had made their difficulties known to me and to the Arts Council. The extent and method by which further State aid might be given was considered by the group. As the House knows, the Tániste announced in the budget that an extra £½ million would be made available, over and above what it had been found possible to allocate in the original Estimates.

This should help towards meeting requirements especially where they are of a substantial capital nature. I am advised that the council will be assisting the Olympia and Gaiety Theatres in Dublin, the Wexford Opera Festival's project for an extension to the Theatre Royal, Wexford, the Cork Opera House, which has been in financial difficulties in recent years, and the Irish Ballet Company who hope to secure better accommodation. These are ventures well worthy of special financing by the council and I am happy to have been able to facilitate them by the provision of necessary funds.

In recent years, the council had taken on the financing of the main State theatre enterprises: the Abbey and Peacock Theatres, the Irish Theatre Company—which is the State touring theatre company—the Gate Theatre, the Dublin Theatre Festival and the Irish Ballet Company. These had been financed directly by the Department of Finance out of the Miscellaneous Expenses Vote, but the new arrangement is a natural and desirable development, enabling the expertise of the council to be brought to bear for the betterment of these companies.

More recently, I understand that Bord Fáilte are arranging to pass over to the council most of the arts enterprises which were hitherto funded by the board. The cultural nature of these enterprises and the fact that, in many cases, they were also funded by the Arts Council, makes such a move seem logical. I am sure that they will thrive with the support and guidance of the council.

In recent years, the council have joined with the Gulbenkian Foundation in two studies which should be of considerable assistance to them and to other agencies, both State and private, in determining a basis for assisting the arts. The first was a general "Report on the Arts in Ireland" which has already provided a blueprint for action by the Council. Earlier this year, a further report on the "Arts in Education" was published by the council to highlight the need for more consideration of the arts in our schools and centres of higher education. One of the recommendations of the report was that the Department of Education should set up a committee to consider the arts in education and to liaise with an Arts Council Committee on this. These committees are being set up and I hope to see their work ensuring a better place in our curricula for the arts. Another recommendation in that report was the appointment of a full-time Education officer with the Arts Council. I have recently approved this and the council have arranged for recruitment. To service its expanding activities, the council needed more staff. I have approved the necessary additional posts and the council are recruiting for these extra posts—a drama officer, finance officer, second visual arts officer and clerical back-up staff. The authorised staff of the council has increased from five to 16 since the 1973 Act was passed.

It is not generally realised that there has been a modest scope for some job creation in the arts and the council have been alive to this possibility, not only in strengthening their own team, but in improving administration in grant-aided organisations. This ensures that the council are better able to monitor and get the best value out of the funds they are disbursing. It ensures also efficient and systematic management of the grants they are given. The voluntary and honorary work of the members of these bodies is still the vital source of their success, but the employment of a full-time administrator, when warranted, can provide a valuable continuity of organisation in many cases. I am thinking of examples such as the Music Association of Ireland, where the Arts Council grant was increased to enable a full-time administrator to be appointed and thereby develop the association's work in organising concerts and recitals throughout the country.

This approach has been adopted too in jointly funding, with regional development organisations, the posts of regional arts officers. Two have been appointed so far—in the mid-west and Galway-Mayo regions—and others are being planned for the near future. These officers will act as animateurs, stimulating and guiding the arts organisations in their region to ensure a planned and coordinated approach to arts ventures.

The joint work of An Chomhairle Ealaíon with the Arts Council of Northern Ireland deserves special praise and mention. For several years now, the two councils have worked together on joint ventures in the arts and I understand that this has been put on firmer footing with joint meetings of the two councils and joint funding of certain ventures. The Irish Theatre Company, for instance, receive a subvention from the Northern Council in respect of their tours to Belfast and other centres. There is an arrangement for sharing of exhibitions across the Border and distinguished exhibitions have rotated, for instance, between the Ulster Museum and the Douglas Hyde Gallery here in Trinity College. The two councils are also joined in the company which will manage Annaghmakerrig House, County Monaghan, the home of the late Sir Tyrone Guthrie, which is intended as an occasional residence for selected artists. I know that we would all wish such a cooperative approach every success.

I would remind the House that the time limit applies for this debate—that speakers on behalf of groups have an hour-and-a-half while other speakers have the usual time for Estimates.

I welcome the Estimate and in particular I welcome the increase in the grant-in-aid though in the context of the development of the arts in Ireland this amount is still small. I doubt if anyone here would not welcome any moneys voted to the Arts Council having regard to the excellent work being carried out by that body.

The situation of artists in Ireland and of the arts generally in recent years has been a situation merely of survival. This has been made clear in a number of recent annual reports published by the Arts Council. We must consider the whole picture in a wider spectrum. Local authorities should play a larger part in the arts by way of working jointly with the Arts Council in supporting the arts throughout the country. Local authorities are permitted to provide moneys for the arts from their own sources but they have not done this to any extent. Indeed, the Government decision to derate private houses and to control increases in the expenditure of local authorities results in effect in local authorities being hindered in regard to providing moneys for the arts because the level of increase allowed each year is not sufficient for the other commitments of local authorities.

It is time that a different approach was taken by the Arts Council and by the Government, through the Office of the Taoiseach, to allow local authorities special access to funds that would ensure that the arts would flourish. A specific role that local authorities can play in this area is in relation to the provision of premises not only for the visual arts but for music and so on. In many parts of the country drama and music groups do not have premises but local authorities are the ideal vehicles through which premises could and should be provided. We should not shirk our responsibility to ask local authorities to play their part in providing these premises.

The question of the provision of premises is raised in the most recent report of the Arts Council, that is, their 1977 report. They rate this matter as their highest priority. Special funds should be made available to local authorities in order to facilitate them to help the arts in the broadest sense.

It is said sometimes that the arts do not rate highly in our society. That point was made forcibly by Ciaran Benson in his report on the place of art in Irish education. In that excellent report Mr. Benson put forward 119 recommendations. We must ask why the arts are not appreciated by the public generally. The fault lies with our education system in that neither at first nor second level education is there any priority given to the arts. Neither is there scope for the development of any artistic bent in a young child. The structure of our curriculum is too narrow. It is designed towards examinations, to achieving points for university entrance. Therefore, what is needed is a change in our education structure. We need a radical change from the examination type system to a system in which there is concentration on the personality of the child, on the development of the personality as opposed to programming the child towards examinations. Obviously the Taoiseach has not full responsibility in this area but he has a part to play in it by reason of his position in relation to the Arts Council. An attempt has been made at primary school level to orientate the system towards the personal development of the child and a similar attempt should be made in respect of second level education. This is very important if our educational system is to produce mature adults who will appreciate the environment in which they live, who will appreciate art in the broad sense.

There have been some interesting developments recently. For example, the establishment of the Mid-West Association has proved to be an excellent idea. I am aware of the excellent work being done by Mr. Paul Funge, not only in relation to his appointment there, but in his work elsewhere. The annual Gorey Arts Week for which he was responsible has been very successful. He has done very good work. The concept of developing an appreciation of arts based on regional development organisation is a sound one. It sets an organisational structure firmly on the ground. The Arts Council must work very hard to ensure that what has been done in the Mid-West Arts Association can be extended right across the country through the other regional development organisations and can be developed on a professional footing.

Perhaps a percentage of all public contracts should go towards the establishment of the arts whereby a portion of public contracts would be devoted to the visual arts or through promoting some works of art. This would make the public more aware of the need for promoting the arts and bringing them more to the public rather than the present position where the public do not appreciate the arts in the broader sense. The bursary system operated by the Arts Council is a sound one. Many artists have benefited from it. I believe it should be expanded especially in relation to young artists who, above all, need to be given financial encouragement. A new system could perhaps be devised which would allow the Arts Council to sponsor young artists in return for publication of their works, the purchase of their works or the donation of a percentage of their works to hotels, local authorities or places where the public can see their work. That positive type of involvement by the Arts Council could have a very beneficial effect on the artists in our society.

The activity of the Arts Council in having joint meetings with the Northern Ireland Arts Council is excellent. Cross-Border activity in this field is ideal. There are no political problems. We should encourage joint exhibitions from Northern Ireland art galleries. Choral societies and drama groups could come down here, as they do already to the Waterford Light Opera Festival. We enjoy their presence. The Taoiseach mentioned the establishment of the An-naghmakerrig House and the development of it. That will have a lasting value. The late Sir Tyrone Guthrie's involvement there is very praiseworthy. It must be cherished and developed in the coming years.

Another aspect of the functions of the Arts Council, which should be expanded, is the Ciste Colmcille, a benevolent fund for artists. We should try to achieve a good standard of living for our artists. We should realise they have a great part to play in our society. If we have not got a live culture with the people partaking in our arts and culture we cannot really say that we are a nation. A nation without a live culture is a weak nation and one which will not be able to face up to different crises. It is vital that our artists are supported when they are young and when they are in poor circumstances. The Ciste Colmcille should be expanded.

The activities of the Arts Council in helping the Irish Theatre Company in various theatres throughout the country is very welcome. On this occasion we should mention the lamented death of Micheál MacLiammoir who played such a major part in Irish arts since the establishment of the Gate Theatre. His passing is a great tragedy for the Irish theatre. The Government might consider establishing a Micheál MacLiammoir memorial. I know that his work has been marked in a small way by the Arts Council. Micheál MacLiammoir's love of Ireland and things Irish, especially the Irish theatre, should be marked in a more national way. The theatre should take the opportunity of establishing a fund for young artists. The name of Micheál MacLiammoir would always be remembered by the establishment of such a bursary or scholarship. This would not strain the Exchequer but the people of Ireland would cherish this very much. This is the first occasion since Micheál MacLiammoir's death that we have had a chance in this House of mentioning his name in the context of the Arts Council. I ask the Taoiseach to seriously consider making his dedication to the arts and the Irish theatre in a special way.

The organisations which up to now were funded by Bord Fáilte will now be taken over by the Arts Council. I hope the Arts Council will not diminish their interest in funding events which were formerly funded by Bord Fáilte. I believe a three year guarantee of funding at the present level has been given by the Arts Council. I do not like the concept of a three year guarantee of funding at the present level. I would not like to feel that at the end of three years the Arts Council would lose interest in funding the events which were formerly funded by Bord Fáilte. The Arts Council must appreciate the commercial value and the value to tourism of arts in the broad spectrum and ensure that whatever funds are needed by sponsors will continue to be given after the expiry of the three years.

One of the principal recommendations of the Benson Report was that the Department of Education should establish an internal committee to look at the arts in education and to liaise with a committee of the Arts Council. I understand that the Department have agreed to this procedure and that the committee is currently being set up. I hope it is not a pigeon-holing exercise, not merely a committee being established, the outcome of whose deliberations we will never hear, because that is something to which we have become too used in Irish life. I would hope there would be a time limit placed on the work of the committee and that their recommendations, when published, will be implemented. The recommendations of the Benson Report are so wide-ranging and comprehensive that I regret the Taoiseach did not mention them in greater detail in his opening speech. They recommend really a complete change of attitude within the Irish educational system. The recommendations are profound, and perhaps the Taoiseach would discuss some of the major ones in his reply, especially those contained in section (A) of the Report. If they are worthy of discussion in this House they will cost money, will involve manpower, and let us understand also that the future of our society depends on the money we spend in education encouraging the development of the child's appreciation of the arts in our society.

I should like the Taoiseach to make a statement on the Earlsfort Terrace concert hall which has been under consideration for some time. I understand that the deliberations have been finalised and proposals submitted to the Department of Finance. There is no question about the need for a concert hall in our capital city. Certainly we should have a premier concert hall in the country. I would ask the Taoiseach to examine the position and perhaps say something in that respect in his reply.

I do not wish to go into the various activities of the Arts Council. They are doing good work with limited funds. I appeal for greater emphasis on the arts and their development throughout the country, not merely centred in Dublin or in the major urban areas. To concentrate on the arts in major areas only would be a mistake. If we are to have a flourishing society, if we are to have a country that appreciates its culture and development, we must bring arts to the people. We must bring arts in the broadest sense to our people and not merely adopt a dead approach to the subject. Rather we must adopt a very positive one. I might make mention of Joan Denise Moriarty whose Irish Ballet Company has made substantial achievements in a very difficult field of the arts, certainly not the most popular one. However, there are many other areas.

For instance, one thinks of films in which respect one hopes we might have an Irish Film Board, that a Film Industry Bill might be enacted in this House providing funds for the making of films here, ensuring that we have a vibrant film industry. In this context the work of Louis Marcus must be mentioned. He has attained international standing for his work in films. There is tremendous potential in our society in all fields of the arts, from visual arts to film making, opera and dance. Those people who can appreciate the arts have always enjoyed participating in them. It is important that our children grow up to appreciate the arts and our culture. In my opinion the present educational system does not allow for such appreciation. Above all I should like to emphasise the need to examine our educational system, to review it at second-level to being child-centred, concentrating on the developing child, allowing the growing man and woman to appreciate the arts. If we can achieve that then we shall have a flourishing culture and society in the future.

In welcoming this Estimate and the 40 per cent increased allocation to the arts I might point out the possible tendency for all parties to fall into some cosy consensus about the status of the arts in our society. Frankly, I do not think that is the case. I think there are major differences of emphasis between the parties in the way in which the arts are supported and developed in our society.

I want to welcome the Taoiseach's presence in moving this Estimate. It is significant in our society that the arts come under the responsibility of the Taoiseach and his Department. It is significant also that the Taoiseach himself moved the Estimate. However, I am somewhat disappointed that he did not avail of the opportunity more to demonstrate his party's reliance on the private sector in other areas vis-á-vis economic growth, or to take the same political opportunity perhaps to exhort the private sector to take on the role his party would envisage in the overall economy. From my reading of his opening speech there is little exaltation by the Taoiseach of the role of the private sector in developing the arts. Perhaps this is at the base of many problems in our society today. First of all there is no clear definition of the function of the arts in our society. Consequently, we have no clear understanding of the role or indeed the identity of their patron in a modern society. I believe that has led to a certain schizophrenia in regard to the State undertaking certain activities in supporting the arts and the private sector using the arts, crudely speaking, as a hedge against inflation in certain circumstances.

What we deserve in this House is a good debate on the arts, at some stage the production of a White Paper on the arts from the Taoiseach's Department and an elaboration of the role of the arts in our society over the next ten to 15 years. In my view, and in the view of my party, without such definition the report on education in the arts will fall between a number of stools: for what is one educating people if there is no clear understanding of the role of the arts in our society? It would be fair to say that our perception of the arts ranges from being able to present an acceptable face to illustrious foreign visitors to more directly being able to earn hard foreign currency by way of artistic activities. Somewhere between those two extremes, surely, in the Ireland of 1979, there is a position that can be worked out stating that the arts constitute an integral part of our society.

It is quite significant that both the Fine Gael spokesman and the Taoiseach have not paid enough attention to the role of the cultural worker. They are one of the most vulnerable and exploited categories of workers in the EEC. Full support must be given to the efforts of the Arts Council and to the status of other agencies attempting to define, improve and secure the conditions of cultural workers here. By virtue of funding the Arts Council the State has taken upon itself, indirectly, the role of patron, through an autonomous body. We are congratulating ourselves on the amount of money we are spending, which I welcome, but could we not spend more money and get a positive social benefit in every sense of the word from the spending of it?

With the permission of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle I will read an extract from the 1977 Annual Report of the Arts Council, because last year's has not yet been published. Paragraph 2 of page 7 of the Report reads as follows:

From a cursory comparison of the total grant for 1977 (£1.2 million) with the funds in 1976 (£990,000) it might appear that the 21 per cent increase in allocation should have been sufficient to tide arts organisations over short-term difficulties. However, there are three main reasons why this apparently generous increase falls completely short of their actual requirements. In the first place, a proper level of funding has never been provided for arts activities, either at local or at national level. A continual history of underfinancing has led to a precarious reliance by grant-aided bodies on bank borrowing, so much so that a significant proportion of the Council's funds must now be used to meet interest charges. Secondly, inflation in the arts negated the value of most of the increased allocations granted during the year. Finally, the number of organisations applying to the Council for support continues to grow, thereby increasing competition for already inadequate resources. In these circumstances it is difficult even to contemplate the major developments that must be undertaken before arts activities can be financed in a manner commensurate with their needs. The present expenditure of the Arts Council in Ireland works out at about 50p per head of population per year, while the per capita expenditure of our nearest neighbours is as follows: Northern Ireland—78p; England—89p; Scotland—£1.14; Wales—£1.41.

Without wishing to denigrate the increase given we must put it in the proper context. It is a 40 per cent increase on a very low base, and we are comparing ourselves with poor relations in the EEC which will probably become poorer when the public sector cuts begin to swing in Britain. In 1977 terms, we spent the price of a pint per head of the population in promoting the arts. It is hard to reconcile that tangible commitment to the arts with the kind of verbal support that frequently emanates from all of us. When replying, will the Taoiseach give some indication of the likely development of the role of the arts in society as he and his Government envisage it? What kind of forward programming can be legitimately made by the Arts Council and what kind of forward planning can be made by people responsible for education in the arts? Unless we can get that sort of framework we will just go from year to year. Indeed the last two or three years in the arts have been crisis years in terms of finance.

The Taoiseach will be the first to admit that his generous response of a Supplementary Estimate of £½ million was a reaction to the crisis management that the depression and inflation has forced upon those administering in the arts over the last three or four years. While I was a member of Dublin Corporation I was party to some of the discussions with the Dublin Theatre festival and I was aware of the difficulties that that organisation encountered. I welcome the increase, but it must be clearly set in its context.

In order to establish the level of expenditure on the arts we must define its central importance in society. We hold that the arts are an integral part of society for a number of reasons, not least of which is their commercial importance. It was estimated, for example, that between 1958 and 1974 the film industry alone brought sums in the region of £50 million into the country. That was a considerable amount of money in those years. If we integrate the role of the arts with the activities of Bord Fáilte in relation to tourism and development we will see that there is a commercial role for the arts that can be quantified. They are the minimal arguments that must come in a society which tends to put every value in tangible financial terms. There are other values to be attached to the importance of the arts and they are central to our image of ourselves. Anyone with a serious developed view of humanity must see that human beings are not mere economic beings and that their status and basic values demand that some form of artistic expression be encouraged. The more our society develops the more artistic expression is needed.

Let us look at what the Government are doing in relation to the arts. The Estimate for the Department of Foreign Affairs is still in progress, and I spoke on it on behalf of our spokesman Deputy Liam Kavanagh who was successfully busy elsewhere. I brought to the attention of the Minister who moved the Estimate the fact that while provision had been made in the Estimate for cultural activities, a major impediment to achieving cultural objectives was the fact that there was a queue of applicants wishing to sign cultural agreements with the Government, that had not been satisfied. If we wish to present an image of Ireland's culture to our EEC neighbours and to other countries, we are being seriously hampered by the absence of formal cultural agreements which, in the world of diplomacy, are a prerequisite to exchanges of exhibitions and of various cultural forms of activity. I know that the Taoiseach is not directly responsible for these, but one cannot talk on the Estimate for the Arts Council without making reference to these cultural agreements. I welcome an apparent increase in enthusiasm and activity for these agreements and for increasing the status of the administration responsible for this within the Government services. However, a report that I am aware of causes me some concern.

There seems to be an unnecessary emphasis on cultural agreements with our EEC partners to the exclusion of other applicants who wish to develop cultural agreements with us. I respectfully suggest to the Taoiseach that an opportunity to develop cultural agreements with third countries—I mean countries outside the EEC—should not be turned down simply because we think we have not sufficient agreements with other EEC states. By virtue of all our other activities we have considerable relations with the EEC countries, and it would be a mistake, therefore, to postpone applications for cultural agreements with other countries, and I particularly refer to the application of the Soviet Union for such an agreement.

As Deputy Briscoe knows, in this House I have been critical of the denial of human rights by the Soviet Union to some of its citizens. However, in the context of the Helsinki pact, what is needed primarily is the strengthening and developing of communications with the signatories of that pact. In so far as there are major ideological differences between us and the Soviet Union, a cultural agreement would go a long way towards helping us to understand each other's political systems, and this would be of considerable mutual benefit. Therefore, I strongly urge the Taoiseach not to postpone such a move until such time as he and the Government consider they have sufficient agreements with other EEC countries.

We are about to assume the Presidency of the EEC. We wish the Taoiseach every success on behalf of the Irish people. With his interest in the arts, he should pursue the status of cultural workers in accordance with the draft EEC directive currently being discussed. A positive move in this matter would improve the role of the artist and the position of the artist, as distinct from the role of the arts, in Europe. We have been tending to concentrate all our energies on the arts per se, and not on the creators of the arts, the performers, the writers and the painters. During the term of our Presidency I should like the Taoiseach through the relevant Departments—Social Welfare would be one of them—to pursue that directive and to give it the sort of push that is needed.

I understand we have only two cultural agreements of a substantial nature and there is an informal one with one of our EEC partners. I can understand why in the past there was some reluctance to get these off the ground. The Labour Party welcome these increased activities and will give them every support.

I will move now to the position of the arts at local level. A unique provision in the 1973 Arts Act was that which enabled local authorities to spend money on the arts directly. I had the pleasure to move on that loophole in Dublin Corporation with the active assistance of Deputy Briscoe and others. I fear, however, that that provision which enabled us to raise a cultural budget in Dublin Corporation in 1975-76 of £50,000, from which many organisations benefited, will be negated by the Local Government Act of this year unless the Taoiseach gives some indication to the Custom House that local authorities may include in their estimates each year a provision for the arts.

In present conditions such a provision would be erased with a blue pencil by the Custom House. Having taken upon himself the centralisation of local finance through the abolition of rates, the Taoiseach has removed a lot of the autonomy of local authorities in regard to the raising of money for the arts at local level. There should be some counterbalancing in terms of finance so that local authorities can put money into the arts. Perhaps the Taoiseach will give some indication to the Minister for the Environment to provide guidelines for local authorities in this respect, what kind of percentage they should earmark for the arts, before the responsible officer in the Department of Finance begins to go berserk.

If a move in this direction is not initiated, regional arts officers throughout the country will in future be unable to travel to Dublin every six weeks for meetings with the Arts Council, and the work of these important people will be frustrated totally. If there is not some system of local funding for the arts, possibly equivalent to the Road Fund or to housing, we are not really being sincere in the way in which we want local authorities to get involved in financing the arts.

This will create problems in a variety of ways for the Taoiseach and the Departments of the Environment and Finance, particularly because the Taoiseach apparently does not perceive any role for the private sector of the economy as a primary patron of the arts, the State apparently being the primary patron, even at local level, because he controls the degree of patronage which any local authority can exercise. Therefore, subsequent to this year's local Government Act, it is necessary that some guideline should be given to the local authorities. I can assure the Taoiseach that the increased Labour Party representation on local councils will be pressing for this.

Another question concerning the arts at local level is the provision of local venues. I am glad to see the Leas-Cheann Comhairle in the House, because his home county and Wexford town have provided an effective venue for the arts in the Wexford Arts Centre. That county has preserved a piece of the architectural fabric of that town, the old Corn Exchange, and the people there, after some pressure, resisted the temptation to paint one of the gable walls, ach sin scéal eile. The preservation of such venues should be integrated with the policy of urban conservation, of obtaining new uses for old buildings, particularly of the scale and nature which cannot be used any more for the primary industrial activity for which they were originally designed and cannot be utilised for more obvious pressing social problems such as housing.

We are all aware that in every town and city there are hundreds of such buildings, old mills and factories which are lying derelict or under-utilised. By linking funds from the EEC Social Fund with our youth employment programme and the AnCO schemes in terms of developing projects for young people we could provide venues for the arts of varying standards of accommodation. Over a period of ten years we could carry out a programme which would result in us having local arts centres accessible to the vast bulk of our population and run and controlled by local voluntary committees, similar to the model that the people in Wexford have moved forward. We need a programme for this; we need some initiative from the Government, through the Department of the Environment and the EEC Regional Fund and Social Fund. With a 400 per cent increase in our representation in the Socialist Group we will have a slightly louder voice in that regard that we had before.

I should now like to deal with the role of the artist in our society. We are very quick to laud artists when they are successful and even quicker to laud them when they are dead—I do not mean that in any disrespectful way—but we are not so quick to help the struggling artist. In fact, we know very little about the struggling artist, whether it is the person who is anxious to act, paint or draw. One of the good things the Arts Council initiated was their commission of a report on the position and status of the artist, or cultural worker, to give him the EEC consensus title. I gather that that report will reveal, among other things, that the average per capita income of the artist per annum in current terms derived from his or her activities in the arts is £1,500 and that most artists have to supplement their earnings by way of teaching or having their spouses or children fund their activities to bring them up to the average industrial wage of about £4,000. That is simply in terms of the money that is taken by the artist but in real terms the number of hours put in by an artist must be enormous relative to what we regard as an average working week of 40 or 42 hours.

I suggest that the Taoiseach, and other Members, should talk to an artist who is anxious to be a full-time worker in the visual arts, for example. I have been asked by such people how can they sign on at the local labour exchange. What category does a painter or sculptor enter into if he does not have work or money? In effect, such people are outside our social system. Either we take the arts seriously or we do not. I believe that the Taoiseach takes the arts seriously and the granting of an extra £500,000 this year is a fair indication of his personal commitment. However, at the other end of the scale artists are in a limbo land with regard to their integration into the social welfare code. I hope that the Minister for Health and Social Welfare who obtained for himself the unique distinction of getting a tax exemption for artists' earnings where it mattered, at the top of the scale, will display the same type of creative concern for the vast majority of artists who happen to be at the other end of the scale. I had hoped for that kind of initiative when I moved here, on behalf of the Joint Committee, a report dealing with such matters. I wish to repeat that request to the Taoiseach so that, hopefully, by next year's budget, the social welfare code will be broadened and extended to include artists. I accept that that is not an easy stroke-of-the-pen type of decision and that it will involve administrative difficulties. I am aware that it cannot be done readily and that it will provoke all types of difficult queries from one Department to another.

When is an artist not an artist?

There are a fair few in this House but they are not looking for supplementary benefit. However, something can be done immediately in relation to VAT and artists. Many artists, particularly in the visual and writing fields, who thought they were exempt from taxation under Deputy Haughey's provision now find that they are being presented with bills for considerable sums under VAT. It is hard to reconcile our political commitment to the arts within the context of our society when on the one hand we are making a 40 per cent increase in the capital provision for the arts and yet VAT is being clawed back on the other side. That is the type of nonsensical circular transfer that increases the demand for public service employment on the one hand and which undermines the position of the artist on the other. The nature of the work is that somebody can work for three years for an exhibition or write a book and then be subject to VAT which cannot be defrayed. I am aware that discussions have taken place between the Revenue Commissioners and those responsible for administering the arts but, on behalf of the Labour Party and the cultural workers, I should like to ask the Taoiseach to ensure that there is a satisfactory outcome to those discussions so that his overall intent in promoting the funding of the arts can be given full effect.

I should now like to deal with the film industry. In the context of that industry I should like to compliment the Arts Council on their decision last year to fund the Irish Film Theatre. It is now a commercial venture and has repaid the loan to the Arts Council and I understand that it is currently in the process of opening a theatre in Cork. The success of the Irish Film Theatre has demonstrated the commercial audience that exists here for the cinema. In that context, we should recognise that, given the audiences and given the commitment that many people have to the film industry generally as an art form, given the enormous expertise and skills that we have as a resource in RTE, we have been extremely negligent—and I mean all of us, when I say we—in not developing properly our film industry.

There was a recent protest at the gates of these Houses by the cultural workers within the film industry. This is an area from which we could derive much immediate commercial benefit—if we have to argue funding on those terms—the overspill effect of which would be to increase the level of artistic activity generally in our society, which would trickle out into the outer areas of the artistic world of our community, where the commercialism is much more reduced. I am reminded of the argument made to me by a number of actors in the context of the campaign waged to save the Olympia Theatre. They talked about the original decision of Yeats to come back at the last part of the last century and establish a theatre here, in the absence of anything other than music hall. The forceful argument put forward by mature and, indeed, esteemed actors in our community was that, without theatres, there will be no actors to play in them; the actors will be forced to go away. If you do not have a corpus of actors and theatres in which they can play, you will not have writers writing for them, set designers designing for them and all the other ancillary activities.

What the Abbey Theatre was in the 19th century to the development of Irish drama and literature—on which we have all comfortably dined out since 1922 and independence, between Yeats summer schools, cultural tourism and promotion of the Irish image abroad and so on—applies to the national film industry, which is, in 20th-century terms, the equivalent to creating a physical stage and a physical theatre house. If the industry is given the impetus that I sincerely believe does exist on this and the other side of the House, first of all, it will enable us to attract into this country film makers who will increase substantially the revenue brought in—£50 million in 1958 to 1974. The activities of the national film studios will be strengthened and increased on that level and we will get the expertise we require and have not already.

There are models of the State itself becoming a patron of the film industry. The most obvious example is the Australian Federal Government and, indeed, what is not so well known some of the provincial Governments in Australia, or whatever their exact title is. I quote from an editorial in The Irish Press of Friday, 25 May, on the film makers' protest:

A shining example of what could be achieved by the kind of legislation believed to be on the way is provided by the Australian experience. Irish audiences have seen a number of excellent Australian films here in recent years, "Picnic At Hanging Rock" and "The Devil's Playground" among them. But what most people here do not realise is that the Australians have built their industry from nothing over the last ten to 15 years.

They began by setting up the Australian Film Commission which provided enough "front money" for independent producers to get their projects off the ground, enabling them to borrow the rest of their budgets from banks and businesses. Under this arrangement the A.F.C. is the last lender to be repaid when the box-office returns begin to come in.

The editorial, which is familiar to some people in this House, goes on to talk about the utilisation of the basic resources of television producers and set designers in graphic arts. We have that capacity here and there is no reason why it should not be fully utilised.

We understand that the film industry is on the way, but I hope it will get from the Taoiseach the commitment needed. Finally, as my time must be nearly up——

No, it is not. The Deputy has plenty of time if he wishes to avail of it.

I do not wish to delay the House too long.

We are broadening the subject slightly, but it is a very broad subject.

Yes, but it does come under the provision for the arts. I come back to the role of the artist and of the patron in the arts in our society. One of the tragedies about this society, in an area in which I am personally and particularly interested—that of the visual arts—is that we have a fine National Gallery. It is well funded, though obviously not as well as it would like. It is well funded, not by any decision of these Houses but by the fortunate provision in a will of an Anglo-Irish individual, which has enabled the gallery to purchase many fine works and to develop a very fine collection, relative to its size.

The Municipal Gallery—or the Hugh Lane Memorial Gallery as it now is—is badly in need of extension and is no longer, in effect, a modern art gallery, or a gallery of modern art, largely being centred on impressionist and expressionist works of the early 19th century. The biggest tragedy, perhaps, is that the finest collection of modern Irish art in this country—and it is a collection—is locked away from the public eye in one of the most expensively built edifices of this city—the headquarters of the Bank of Ireland. This is a unique collection; it has been very well funded, as well it might from such a successful commercial organisation. In a nutshell, it demonstrates the contradiction existing in our society between provision for the arts, the role of the patron, the status of the artist and access of the rest of the public to it.

Many of the artists whose work now hangs in the building have been, or may now be, on the breadline. They do not qualify for social welfare registration of any kind. They would probably require permission to go in and see their own work, if they wanted to do so. The bank, which is an enormously successful corporation, is effectively privately owned and has seen fit, in its own wisdom—and it was a good decision—to invest in the arts. In fact, I would suggest that its investment has more than been recouped; the value of this collection now is probably well in excess of what was expended upon it. It is like South African rands, or gold, or jewellery, or diamonds, and is perceived as such by some of the bankers. There is nothing necessarily wrong with that if you can release money from bankers for funding, although I do not agree with it. However, here, in a nutshell, not a stone's throw from this building, is the contradiction of the provision for the arts, particularly the visual arts. There are two large pieces of sculpture outside the bank; there are probably 200 or 300 works of art in that bank, inaccessible to the public.

The Taoiseach is the leader of a successful political party that has espoused private enterprise and its role in our society—not that I would disagree with that. It is interesting that he has not seen fit, in moving this Estimate, to envisage any role whatever for that same sector which has been given such prominence in developing our economic structure, in the question of the provision for the arts. It is quite significant that this contradiction exists in the visual arts, as embodied in the Bank of Ireland Report. I should like to see some logical consistency coming from the Fianna Fáil Party, if they are not in a position to make serious funds available for the arts, by way of finding the role of the State as primary patron—while I welcome the 40 per cent increase that has come. The extract I read from last year's Arts Council Report demonstrates just how underfunded we are. If that is not the case, then some direction, or activity, or financial incentive should be provided for the private sector and, uniquely, should be provided, so that all the private works of art that exist in the private collections are made available. I am not talking about modern work; I am not talking about the wealth tax provisions—they are all gone now anyway—but those provisions that set up Russborough House and the rest.

In conclusion, we tend to be very superficial about the arts in this society and to be complimentary only about the successful arts. There is no element of trust or encouragement in struggling artists; there is a lot of piggy back climbing on people who happen to be successful—in many cases successful despite our lack of interest. We must start seriously defining the role of the artist in our society and the role of the State as patron. As far as the Labour Party is concerned, the State, in effect, has now become the patron—the public community has become the patron, and yet the funds are not available.

I have drawn attention to perhaps the most serious implication, namely, the implicit restriction on spending on the arts at local level and if I wanted to emphasise anything I said today I should like to emphasise that aspect. I believe we will run into a considerable amount of difficulty there.

The status of the artist as a cultural worker is in limbo. The council will publish a report in a matter of months and there is a draft directive in circulation. Some work should be done on that. Many things are about to happen in the area of the arts. Deputy Collins referred to the position of art education. I have not referred to it because I think it is a specialist matter and my colleague, Deputy Horgan, is better qualified than I to discuss it. One cannot be isolated from the other. They all fit into the framework of the arts. I hope that at some stage the Government will publish a White Paper now that the Arts Council have provided the basis for it.

The Gulbenkian Report on the provision of the arts was a unique document in its time. Another document entitled "Art in Education" contains many assumptions and recommendations, some of which I might not agree with but we are beginning to get the foundation of the picture of the arts in our society. We should now make decisions about this matter. That is the responsibility of the Government. If the Government say, as I would expect them to say, that it is the role of the private sector primarily to be the patron, there should be some specific encouragement by way of tax relief, tax incentives and legislation enabling the provision of buildings and so on. We should start moving towards decisions, and perhaps the best way to do that would be a White Paper on the arts, a discussion in this House and then the necessary legislative changes in the many Government Departments that may be affected directly.

It is right to begin by saying that I am sure everyone here admires the courtesy of the Taoiseach, who is the busiest man in the country, or should be, for staying here for so much of this debate. Nobody would have faulted him if he had asked one of his junior Ministers to take his place.

There are three or four points that I want to make which arise on this Estimate. The first relates to the structure within which the Arts Council exists. It is about 12 years since the Devlin Committee was set up to make recommendations about reorganisation of the public service. They recommended that a group of services which are, broadly speaking, of cultural importance should be brought together and placed under a single administrative organ or combined into a single administrative department. One of these was the National Gallery, another was the National Museum and another was the National Library. The Arts Council was also part of the scheme and, although I do not believe it was appropriate, I think Roinn na Gaeltachta was also included. It was a pity that scheme was shelved. It is a great pity that the only changes that have been visible under this Government and the former Government have been those relating to the Department of the Public Services in the case of the Government I worked for, and which was recommended by Devlin, and in the case of this Government there were a few largely cosmetic changes, not one of which was recommended by Devlin. One would comb the pages of Devlin in vain for a recommendation that the Department of Local Government be retitled or that there should be a Minister for Economic Planning and Development separate from Finance. It is a pity, when we go to the trouble of getting a distinguished public servant to spend some years making recommendations about the public service, that they should be almost universally ignored. Not only were they ignored but things were done, almost contemptuously, that were never envisaged or suggested by Devlin. The suggestion for uniting this variety of services under a single administrative organ seems to have disappeared, and nobody seems to be pushing it.

I must admit that one of the suggestions made by Devlin in this connection was that the new Department which he envisaged will be called the Department of National Culture. I find that an offensive title, by reason of the association of that expression in foreign countries with dictatorships, and in Ireland with unlimited humbug as we talk about our national cultural heritage. I should prefer not to use that phrase, and certainly would not like to see it enshrined in the name of a government department, but that would not be a reason for not uniting the services under a single political head, and I think the correct political head is the Taoiseach himself. When John Costello was Taoiseach the Arts Council was his idea and the original Arts Act was sponsored by him in this House. In the end it is to the Taoiseach's Department that many other cultural odds and ends eventually find their way. It would not be inappropriate to have this collection of services united, without giving them a title that would be offensive or silly, like the Department of National Culture, under the umbrella of the Taoiseach's Department which already has a number of them.

I would add to the Devlin list the archaeological services which are now provided at public expense by at least three separate authorities. Perhaps local authorities have archaeological services. I presume Dublin Corporation must have such services. I hope they have some permanent archaeological advice——

They have not.

They should have.

There is the National Museum.

Apart from the local authorities there are at least three others. There is the Department of Education via the National Museum; the Office of Public Works; and I understand Bord Fáilte also employ a small number of archaeologists. That is a branch of science that is of obvious cultural importance and which should be united with the services I have mentioned under the same administrative umbrella.

In this connection I must emphasise a point which I thought Deputy Quinn would make. He seemed to approach it, and then sheered away from it. Perhaps he would have made it better than I can. I must emphasise that you cannot parcel up a certain number of activities and interests and label them "culture" and separate them from a large number of other activities. That is not possible, or at least it is only possible to an uncivilised mind. There is not a visible frontier separating the arts from architecture, from archaeology or from learning, or at least if there is it is not one that anyone has defined or defended satisfactorily. While the functions of the Arts Council must, in practice, be limited by the amount of money at their disposal, any conception of their functions which limits the council to arts in the narrowest sense, as traditionally understood, is a wrong conception. I remember seeing the Taoiseach here about three months ago, for the undisclosed reason that the Minister who was due to answer the next lot of questions had not yet arrived, spending quite a lot of time debating with a questioner the matter of whether circuses ought to come under the umbrella of An Chomhairle Ealaíon. I am not sure that there are not stronger candidates for inclusion in the Arts Council's purview than circuses——

The Chair would have its doubts about that too.

The reference is not accurate. It was a question asked to me in connection with the Arts Council and their responsibilities. It was not a debate. It was a supplementary question.

I agree, but the Taoiseach was good enough to spend about four pages of the Official Report answering the supplementary question in a way which he normally would not.

Not more than 20 or 30 words. The Deputy should check it again.

I will subscribe £1 to Taca if I am wrong about that.

We have not got Taca any more.

It hardly arises on this Vote.

If a question about circuses was not the subject of at least three or four supplementary replies by the Taoiseach running into a couple of hundred words, Taca will get £1 from me by hand tomorrow morning, if I may have their address.

The Deputy should check it out.

I mention it only to make the point that I do not consider it a contemptible point of view that circuses should be included among the arts. There are candidates I would include which are now excluded, like town planning, which in most of their appearances have not got any strong relevances but nonetheless have a clear importance in the area of human existence we are talking about. Any attempt to draw a firm boundary here will be a failure.

If we ever get a unified administration of these services, library, gallery, museum, archaeological services, and so forth, under the same administrative group, it ought to include the film industry as well. It is an absurd accident that the question of the appearance of the Film Industry Bill, if it ever does appear, should be debated by the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy and myself merely because it has an industrial dimension. Of course it has an industrial dimension, like any art or craft, but its principal dimension is aesthetic. I would consider that a very strong candidate for inclusion in the same administrative structure.

Obviously misapprehensions about what the film industry is all about are held in very high places. When the matter last surfaced here, until it surfaced again the day before yesterday, there was an editorial in The Irish Press which made a very strong plea for the Government to push ahead with a bit of action in the field of the film industry. It ended by saying the main importance of this was to inform the world a bit better about us. If the only purpose of a Film Industry Bill and of setting up this entire structure is to make it a kind of celluloid Government Information Service, I would not propose to spend 6p on it. It is not worth having a film industry if all it will do is inform the world about our staggering achievements in job creation, or in preserving the scenery, or in any of the other things in which we have a lot to apologise for. It is not worth doing that.

It is worth doing it if it will open up a possibility for self-expression and self-realisation to a generation of film makers —I am not altogether convinced it will, but if it will—and writers and all the other artists which the existence of a film industry is bound to encourage. That must be the main reason for pushing ahead with this. I do not overlook its employment potential, but that must be subsidiary. If we are to have a film industry merely to create jobs, we could spend the money more advantageously and get better and quicker and more lasting results somewhere else. It is essentially an aesthetic enterprise—I do not need to give a lecture about it—it should be looked at as that and not misunderstood. If we ever get one, it should be under the same unified administrative umbrella.

This extended arts responsibility of the Taoiseach's Department should cover the question of the conservation of old town cores, old streetscapes and old buildings. Merely because the English have not got an administrative arrangement like that is not a good reason why we should not have one. In France before you alter a classified building you have to get the permission of the Department of Beaux Arts. In Italy it is the corresponding Belle Arti which accords or refuses permission. They do not see anything funny, or odd, or eccentric in relating the question of a house facade which may be 100, 200 or 300 years old, or in referring the question of its aesthetic value or its right to survive, to a department the main function of which lies in the field of arts.

As I said a moment ago, we have so much to apologise for. We have committed so many atrocities in the field of urban conservation, or in our failure to conserve. We have committed so many massacres of things which were handed down to us by the generation which saw independence here in 1922. Much that was worth seeing and preserving and keeping up and still living in, and which was here in our parents' time has now been swept away, and not swept away in order to give place to magnificent new towns, but swept away very often in order to make room for what still seem to be only car parks or derelict sites growing nettles.

Our record in this respect is so abominable that we need not apologise for suggesting that there should be set up a Department with specific responsibility for maintaining what there remains to be maintained in public architecture. The existing authorities in that regard have only a half responsibility, because a planning authority such as a county council or even the appeals authority must have regard to very many different factors such as traffic congestion, the lack of provision of public services in the place in which the application is made and the likely impact on the population in terms of a further 1,000 office workers coming into the street every day. In addition, the authority must have regard to the aesthetic considerations—they must decide, for example, whether an old street should disappear—but we should have an authority concentrated absolutely on this area, one which has no other function but to ensure that not another brick is removed from a brick in a building in this State which, on the basis of aesthetic considerations, should not be removed.

It would make one sick to hear the guff from Ministers and sometimes indeed from Opposition Deputies about our priceless cultural heritage. What is left of our priceless cultural heritage? One need only walk around this city to have that question answered. Consider what is happening to Lower Mount Street, to Holles Street or to Ely Place. One need only walk 100 yards from here to find a row of six 18th-century houses at the corner of Ely Place which have been derelict since I was a student 25 years ago. In the doorway of one of those houses the city council have been allowed to place a large type of container which perhaps controls traffic lights. This is a large functional object which is inconsistent with the continued use of the door as a door. It is an eyesore, but the people have become used to looking at something like that in the same way as one becomes accustomed to not having a lampshade, or to having a crack in a wall, in some part of one's house. Yet we talk about our priceless cultural heritage. People who live in such conditions should not talk about such matters until they succeed in providing some structure for defending our cultural heritage.

The function which An Chomhairle Ealaíon have under the 1951 Act of advising any member of the Government who may request advice on any matter is not utilised sufficiently. A couple of months ago I referred here to the question of coinage. I do not wish to resurrect at this point the scandal of the coinage, though there is still a lot of mileage to be had from that. Perhaps I said too much on that other occasion, but I wish to make it clear that my criticism was not intended in any way as a reflection on the work of the artist who designed the coinage. The point I wished to make was that the matter was one which cried out for the advice of the Arts Council. I am confident that had the Arts Council been asked for advice in 1970, rather than to have the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Haughey, taking it on himself in his familiar Olympian way to know what is best for us not only in regard to how to make money but to how the coinage should look, they would have recommended that we initiate a procedure such as the procedure adopted in 1926 when the first coinage of the State was being planned. The omission on the last occasion was scandalous.

I am not pretending to be a competent critic in this area, but in the strict numismatic sense—and that is the sense in which I intended my remarks last time to be taken—the coinage was barbarised. Even from the 2/- piece and the 1/- which survived from the old coinage, some of the detail was scrapped. The beading inside the edge of the coins was incontinently done away with. On the old 1/- there was a bar on which the bull stood but on the new coin this line was shortened so that it would no longer connect with the edges of the coin. These details were all integral parts of a design, and civilised people will not regard an artistic design as anything but an integral whole. They will know that it cannot be successful to omit beading, for example, or to change the lettering and still have the same design. Then there is the gross discordance in style between the modest but extremely well-designed animals of the old series, and the obscure hieratic symbols of the new bronze coinage. The result is that we have a mess in terms of our coinage, whereas what we had before was regarded as the most beautiful coinage in Europe. This mess could have been avoided if the Arts Council had been invoked by the Minister, and he would have invoked their advice if he had had a scrap of modesty or an iota of knowledge of these matters.

From time to time the Arts Council are asked for advice, but one need only look around to realise that their advice is not sought often enough. Occasionally, I understand, the Office of Public Works seek the advice of the Arts Council, but that office are one of the principal offenders in the general area we are talking of. They should be seeking advice continually from the Arts Council. While the Office of Public Works have done much extremely good and attractive work of all kinds, I must fault them in other regards. They have an insensitive eye in many respects, particularly in regard to detail, and they allow some things to happen which would not happen in a country in which a civilised eye was more the rule, or in which people at least had enough humility to seek advice from someone who had a civilised eye. Outside this building, on Leinster Lawn, there are two lamps that have been there since the days when the building was the headquarters of the RDS in the last century. One of these lamps is near the gate and the other is in a corresponding position near the National Gallery wall. Up to five years ago both of these lamps were in the condition in which cast iron lamps often are—the tops had fallen off them but in both instances the top was replaced by a tiny object which was poised 12 feet from the ground though it was hardly the size of a tumbler. It was a tatty little glass object.

It would be more appropriate for the Deputy to raise these matters on another Estimate.

I am merely giving an example of something that happened only a few feet away from us. I asked the late Deputy Kenny if he would be prepared to look at this object, and having seen it he agreed that it was a most ignorant-looking production, and he ensured that the Office of Public Works replaced the glass object with an old lamp of appropriate size and shape.

The Estimate on which these matters might appropriately be raised will be before the House at a later date.

Though the Office of Public Works do much very good work on the whole they are insensitive to matters to which, perhaps, an Office of Public Works cannot be expected to be sensitive, but these are the matters on which they should seek advice from the Arts Council or from a nominee of that council.

Another example of what I have in mind concerns the State Apartments at Dublin Castle which in terms of colours are barbarous. The colouring is gaudy and garish. The carpets are of a very fine design but they would seem to have been designed without having regard to the room in which they were to be laid.

The Chair has a problem here, because the Deputy is entering very much into the area of another Estimate. The Office of Public Works have responsibility for all these matters. So far, the Chair has been very indulgent with the Deputy.

Perhaps the Chair would be so indulgent as to allow me cite one further instance of the insensitivity of the Board of Works to matters of design. I refer to the carpet in this Chamber. In the first place it needs washing. The white parts are discoloured.

The Taoiseach is hardly responsible for washing the carpets.

I agree but he presides over the Arts Council which is supposed to advise Ministers of the Government on matters on which they are capable of offering advice, and I suggest that whoever is in charge of the carpet here is not competent to decide on floor covering for this House. He should be getting the advice that is provided for statutorily and which is free of charge. Obviously the carpet here was designed by somebody who was not told that the Clerk's desk would be placed on an integral circular badge——

The Chair has always considered the carpet to be very nice.

I hope that I am not spoiling the Chair's enjoyment of the carpet. In addition a two-feet square was cut out of this handmade carpet in order to accommodate this box, which in itself is no beauty.

I suggest that we get back to the Estimate.

I am only giving homely examples of how we let ourselves down by showing that we lack an eye that is sensitive to aesthetic considerations. We should require all office holders to take the advice of people whose business it is to concentrate on the aesthetic in life.

I want to part from the Office of Public Works in good humour. I have no wish to offend them, and I recognise that on the whole they are doing a good job, but on matters that have important aesthetic dimensions they should seek the advice of those who are qualified to give such advice. Deputy Quinn has dealt adequately with the local authorities matter. I suggest that there be a form of provision whereby the State would undertake to indemnify for museum or gallery interests who may be hesitant about undertaking the loan of a collection for display here because of the consideration of the cost of insuring it. We are aware of the formidable problems which arose for the Government I worked for in the case of the collection of Irish treasures which has been in America for some time. I do not know how one could compute the cost. Obviously such collections are not replaceable.

Obviously, when one is dealing with material which is unique, the ordinary considerations of insurance scarcely seem relevant. Nevertheless, they are relevant in the sense that one has to put some kind of value on those things, one has to provide oneself with some kind of figure which will ease one's sense of loss, at least buy something else instead in the event that something unique is lost or destroyed. I know that foreign galleries and museums who, happily, now are thinking in terms of sending collections around the world, may be deterred in our case by the cost of the necessary insurance premium.

I heard Deputy Quinn mention the cultural agreement with the Soviet Union. I would be a bit lukewarm about such a thing unless I could be assured that although what we might send would be purely cultural, that what we got back would also be purely cultural and that there was not any other element in it. If I could be sure about that I would heartily support Deputy Quinn's point of view.

I have evidence to suggest that his idea could have spectacular results. When I was in Paris about three years ago I saw an exhibition of prehistoric gold objects which came from Russia, which had been excavated in southern Russia in a period starting in the 18th century up to quite recently. This was a collection of gold objects, all ornamental, which would literally take the sight out of one's eyes. I had no conception that such a thing existed in the world. It was a most fabulous collection of mirrors, brooches, weapons and decorations of all kinds. I could not describe the magnificence of that collection which western Europe scarcely knows about. That came from the Soviet Union and, as far as I could see, there were no strings attached to it. If there were, the French managed to keep them out of sight. If it were possible to get, via a cultural agreement with the Soviet Union, that collection, or even a fraction of it, it would be well worth having. If the way towards that could be smoothed by the State undertaking a formal system of indemnity, which would involve the State in very substantial risks, it should be considered, and possibly even built, in order to give it legal force, into an amended Arts Act. I want to repeat the appreciation, which I am sure the House feels, of the Taoiseach for having spent so long here this morning.

I welcome the increase in the amount of money made available over the last two years, which has been increased by 75 per cent. I mention this because I did not hear it mentioned by any of the other speakers. I would also like to express my satisfaction at the appointment of Dr. James White as the new chairman of the Arts Council. It is a recognition that is due to him. I am satisfied that a lot of the money which will be forthcoming will be largely due to his considerable influence and the confidence which the Taoiseach and Members of the House have in him. Nobody can say that he is a person who has been rewarded for political activities on behalf of any political party. He has earned that post and I wish him many successful years in enlarging the activities of the Arts Council.

My experience in Dublin Corporation in relation to the Arts Council has been one of co-operation with them. Deputy Quinn can confirm this. I suggested to the new chairman that he recommend to his directors that we meet at least twice a year to discuss common problems and how we can help each other.

It was through Dublin Corporation—Deputy Quinn must take a lot of credit for this—that the Olympia Theatre was saved. I was chairman of the cultural committee at that time and we worked very hard to see what way we could raise money to save the theatre. We got in touch with the Arts Council but they were very restricted in what they could do. I would like to see the Arts Council being able to come to the immediate rescue if such a situation arises again. There was a two-year lease to run on the Olympia Theatre at that time with no guarantee that the owners, who were in England, would renew the lease. We were being asked to put down £100,000 of the ratepayers' money and gamble that they would renew the lease. We were advised by legal counsel that we could only do it as an act of trust, that if it was a business deal we were going into they would advise against it. We took a chance with the ratepayers' money and were lucky that the gamble came off. If it had not we would have had to face the consequences of our very brave action, which would have been called reckless.

We had to make sure that we got certain guarantees. It was a loan given to the theatre which possibly they will not be able to repay. I would like to see the Arts Council being able to consider seriously acquiring the Gaiety Theatre. That theatre should not be put at risk. We have very few theatres in Dublin and, as Deputy Quinn quite rightly said, if all our theatre close down our writers close down, our actors emigrate and we lose them.

With regard to Deputy Quinn's anxiety to see artists who are not making a living qualifying for social welfare, when is an artist not an artist? I do not envisage the chairman and the board of directors of the Arts Council sitting around the table adjudicating on who in their opinion is an artist and would qualify for social welfare and who would not. Unfortunately, this is not on, although it is a nice idea. Most people feel that an artist who is good has to suffer and if he suffers long enough he must be good. There are many people who are artists only in their own eyes. One of the measures I would take to try to do something about artists who are not making a living would be to get the Arts Council, perhaps for a year, to ensure that exhibitions would include works of lesser-known artists. At all the exhibitions we go to, we see works of well-known artists. If the exhibitions do not have works of well-known artists people will not attend them. I would like to see the Arts Council working more energetically towards getting people who do not consider their works worthy of hanging included in exhibitions which they are funding.

With regard to the film industry, I have felt for a long time that the future of the film industry in Ireland is not in Ardmore. Ardmore has been a bit of a white elephant. We do not create the employment at Ardmore which we would if we had our own film industry. I am thinking particularly here of some of the fine film makers like Bob Quinn who made "Cloche", a wonderful film on sculpturing. There was a debt of £1,000 hanging over that film. The Arts Council have already made a considerable contribution towards it. For my part I got the corporation to agree to show that film in libraries at least to young school children to help wipe out some of the debt. But, if you like, we were taking up the slack of the Arts Council which we very much resented. Local authorities will resent the Arts Council passing on bills to them which they feel the Arts Council should be paying. But local authorities would be very glad to co-operate with the Arts Council in putting on exhibitions or other events that might not take place otherwise.

I would be concerned also if the Government restricted the amount of money to local authorities and if we could not spend money on the arts in the manner in which we have been doing. I do not accept that that will happen. I would ask the Minister to ensure that there is no intention—I am sure there is not—of removing money from our budgets, which should be increased every year on the basis of increased allocations. We have made our money go far. I know the major obligation on the Arts Council is to create new outlets for the arts and to encourage artists. Going concerns do not necessarily qualify. Nevertheless recognition must be given in some small way to those artistic organisations and groups providing a service to our people in the sense of presenting the arts to them.

I believe the Arts Council will make a very strong plea for our own film industry and that people like Bob Quinn and Louis Marcus will be sufficiently funded to enable them show films they make. We could create far more employment in this country by a roving type of film industry rather than one set in a studio. What happens in a studio setting is that all the technicians come from abroad; very few Irish technicians are engaged. The real experts come in from abroad using the fantastic facility existing here. But this does not afford us a real opportunity or outlet for our film industry. For example, people tend to think of a film industry as one constituted by the people who made, say, the successful "French Connection" or some other of those highly successful drama films.

I do not think the "French Connection" of the Deputy's party was all that successful.

I suppose not; but not to worry, that is a decision that has been made. We did not have the luck you people had.

The short film, the artistic film is something for which there is a tremendous outlet. For example, the films of Louis Marcus are famous. Very recently I was in Lisbon at a cinema symposium when I heard people from many European countries discussing the problem of their State contributions. We do not owe anyone a living but certainly we must endeavour to put whatever money is available where we feel it can do most good.

In relation to cultural arrangements with other countries, third countries, unfortunately we did have a bad experience with the Russians. I was blamed for a Russian exhibition that never took place. I had not opened my mouth for or against that exhibition. Even when it came to a vote, at which the chairman of the cultural committee was the person who voted first, I asked the secretary to record my vote last as I did not want to influence anybody. Yet I was blamed for that. At that stage they were insisting on an exhibition of pictures, through the Russian Embassy, when their representative would give no information at all to the curator of the gallery as to what featured in the pictures, what type of pictures were coming and so on.

That is why we need the cultural agreement because of the chaos which resulted from that unfortunate incident.

Yes, because, as I recall, it was not even coming through the embassy. Although they were making representations, they were not doing it. They were even asking for us to pay for the exhibition ourselves, to make a contribution towards it, when all other countries with which we have cultural arrangements, such as Austria, pay entirely for any exhibitions that come here. We mount the exhibition and they pay. Anyway I have no objection to any cultural arrangement with any country and certainly not on ideological grounds provided there is freedom of culture within those countries; it is important that culture is not being crushed.

I am delighted to note such a huge increase in the amount of the Estimate. I am delighted at Dr. White's appointment. I know he will be entirely successful. I hope we will be able to take a long, hard look at the position and that recommendations will be put to the Government shortly in relation to theatres in any part of Ireland, good theatres that get into difficulty.

I welcome the opportunity to discuss this Estimate, just as I recall welcoming the 1973 Arts Bill in the Seanad. While we probably should have taken a greater interest at an earlier date, obviously it is better late than never.

It is very difficult to stimulate interest in the arts, very difficult to get people to show their appreciation of them. In this respect our fault lay mainly in the fact that over the years we did not endeavour to get our young people in school to cultivate this appreciation. I welcome any subvention from Government funds to promote the examination of this question. We might ask ourselves: do our present difficulties in this country in which people seem to have got their sense of values all mixed up emanate from a false appreciation of the values before us? Has materialism taken over? Have people too much leisure time, too much money and have they not been, educated on how to spend that time and money, with resultant chaos on several fronts? It is about time we took a look at ourselves and asked ourselves those questions. For example, are our present outlets for spending this leisure time far too restricted? How can we redress the imbalance obtaining? Rather than being able to appreciate the fine things in life the only things to which we seem to be able to turn are the pubs and television which, of course, in some ways—television in particular—can have artistic merit. But primarily it is an unimaginative way of spending leisure time and is leading to a decadent society.

Therefore it behoves us all to encourage a greater appreciation of the arts. It is difficult to know how to stimulate that interest or appreciation. Obviously we must begin with our young people in the schools. Deputy Kelly referred to a very relevant point: that in such a position we must bring the arts to the people. We had a very good example of that when we sent some of our art treasures to America. That is a practice that should be encouraged. Not alone should we send more of our art treasures abroad but we should encourage other nations, in Europe, the United States and elsewhere, to let us have an opportunity of looking at their treasures. Such a practice would evoke great stimulation and appreciation here. I would ask the Taoiseach to bear that aspect in mind.

I recall also that in the debate in the Seanad in 1973 it was advocated that we should send our existing art treasures in this capital city, where they are principally, around to provincial centres. That idea has been promoted to a certain degree and I should like to see it done on a larger scale. It is obvious that one does not get the bulk of people from the country to come to Dublin merely to look at art forms or treasures but probably they would if they were put on display in local museums or civic centres.

The word "arts" may have a broad outline but it is difficult to define it exactly. Far too often it is the prerogative of intellectuals. We should endeavour to broaden the definition of what art forms mean. It is far too narrow as it stands. Snobs and people with position and money are hogging the arts at the moment and the lower-income groups are not welcomed. It is a social thing rather than a true artistic appreciation.

One of the organisations which is most praiseworthy is the Irish Theatre group. I was delighted to notice in the Taoiseach's Estimate speech that they are getting a subvention from the Arts Council in Northern Ireland. That is a glowing example of cross-Border co-operation. I am glad to note that both our Arts Council and the Northern Ireland Arts Council have come together to preserve the ancestral home of Sir Tyrone Guthrie in County Monaghan and that they have set up a joint committee to manage that house. The Irish Theatre Company have done great work in provincial centres which previously only had amateur productions. These centres now have professional groups and they can see the top performers in the country. They have evoked great interest, and the members of the company are delighted with the response they got in the last couple of years. This group should be financed and promoted by the Government and the Arts Council to the best of their ability.

When Deputy Haughey, the present Minister for Health, brought in tax-free concessions for artists some years ago it was widely welcomed. That was a stroke of genius, and the Minister must be given credit for it because it aided people who were in need. As Deputy Briscoe said, we seem to have lived with long suffering artists all our lives. We have seen more films from Hollywood and elsewhere depicting artists living on or below the bread line and we have great sympathy for those people. However we can go from one extreme to the other. I resent millionaires being allowed complete tax free concessions, and I feel that there should be some limit. The tax system must be seen to be equitable. I fully agree that struggling artists should be aided by way of tax concessions and so on, but it is wrong for successful authors and artists of any description who are earning millions of pounds a year to get tax-free concessions. That is not equitable. Who is to say that such a person is more artistic than a blacksmith or a carpenter, for example, or than any artisan or tradesman? To bring this system to its logical conclusion the richest men in the world could be living off the fat of the land without having to pay any taxation, and that is not fair. The time has come when the line must be drawn. We cannot have an absolute carte blanche in relation to taxation.

It is in order to mention it, but it would be much more appropriate to another Estimate.

I have made my point. The Arts Bill of 1973 enables local authorities to make a subvention to various art forms within their areas. That is a laudable scheme but unfortunately far too many local authorities do not recognise that section of the 1973 Arts Act. It would be far better if it were obligatory on all local authorities to give a certain proportion of their income to the various art forms in their area. The voluntary idea has not worked. Some groups are being discriminated against by their county councils. If there are a lot of obtuse people in a local authority who do not see the relevance of the arts it is not fair that the people trying to promote artistic works should suffer because of it.

In my constituency in the last few months I propagated the idea that the local authority should give a certain subvention. They gave a very tiny amount in a most begruding manner. Some weeks ago I asked a Question in the Dáil as to how many local authorities had agreed to make a financial subvention and in reply I was told that statistics on the matter could not be obtained. I suggest that the majority of local authorities are not fulfilling their obligations in that regard. However some are. The Mayo County Council, for instance, have set up an arts committee within the council. Other local authorities should be advised to do the same thing, because the voluntary effort obviously has not been enough. This year the Arts Council were in touch with each local authority asking them to give this financial subvention, but they were not as successful as they should have been. For that reason the allocation should be made statutory.

Some urban councils are allowed to give 3p in a pound to local artistic forms and virtually every one of them does so, but county councils, which have a far greater source of revenue, do not do so. The Taoiseach might comment on that and might consider amending existing legislation to make this obligatory. To harness the goodwill that is there we must get people to appreciate the arts, and how can we do that if we do not spend money on it initially? Money is the key. We are not any less appreciative than the continentals or other nations but the people are not getting the opportunity. There is an obligation on the Government and on the elected representatives from all sides of the House to see that people who could appreciate the arts do so.

Though the number of contributions during the debate was comparatively few, the contents have been quite impressive, comprehensive and generally helpful and constructive. When I am replying to a debate like this I always find a difficulty, when so many points have been made, how to go about them. One is tempted to start to expound one's own musings and attitudes to the general points made. It is only fair to the Deputies who contributed that to some extent an attempt should be made to deal with their contributions and the points made seriatim.

In general I agree with most of the sentiments expressed by Deputies opposite that we can all pay lip service to the arts and to the need for subvention of the arts, on the one hand to boast about our so-called great cultural heritage and our interest in the arts and then proceed to do nothing practical about that interest, certainly about giving them the kind of assistance that ought to be forthcoming. When one speaks of assistance, I come to the point made by some speakers on whether it should come from the State or from private industry or from both.

Naturally, to some extent the State must be the leader in making finance available for the promotion of the arts and interest in the arts and, where necessary, for assisting artists who might otherwise find difficulty in making a living from their artistic talents. However, it is important that private enterprise should be encouraged—indeed many do so without encouragement—to make finance available to assist artists and to help to maintain and, where it does not exist, inculcate an interest in artistic expression.

It often happens that when a company run into temporary difficulties the first victim of these difficulties is what might be regarded as unnecessary expenditure. I am afraid that in the case of many private enterprises, assistance to the arts is generally regarded as unnecessary to the advancement of the enterprise. However, it is only right that we should expect, especially from successful private organisations whether they be banks or other industrial activities, a degree of assistance to the Arts; and the greater the success, I suggest, the greater the assistance might be. Generally, many of our successful private companies make financial assistance available, in some cases by sponsoring private artists to produce works of visual art, whether they be paintings or sculptures, particularly in relation to the building of new premises by successful business enterprises. That should be encouraged.

It was suggested by Deputy Quinn that many such companies have baser motives and tend to use these investments, if one wishes to call them that, as a hedge against inflation. I do not think that is true because in many cases—I do not say in all cases—the artists from whom they commission work are not very well known but in their opinion have much potential. Therefore it is not a gilt-edged hedge against inflation when they commission works from artists of that kind. Nevertheless, if they become famous, renowned either at home or abroad, if there is an accrued dividend well and good—companies like that deserve to get their profit, if they want profit from it; they deserve to get the gilt on their investment by recognising the potential of developing artists early on.

That brings me to a point made by all four speakers from the Opposition, the extent to which local authorities should assist in developing appreciation of the arts and, by developing such an appreciation, developing an interest in the works of artists, thereby developing the kind of income artists can make from their talents. I will do all I can to promote an active interest by local authorities by way of making some of their funds available for that purpose. I do not think I would go as far as Deputy Deasy suggested, that it ought to be made compulsory. There is an enabling provision in legislation for this purpose, and though I agree that to some extent the capacity of local authorities to make voluntary provision may have been somewhat reduced by the fact that rates are no longer payable on private dwellings, within the ambit of the expenditure they can raise themselves and acquire from the Exchequer, there ought to be some provision for making assistance available for the arts whether by way of locations in which artistic works can be displayed or making subventions to exhibitions, or otherwise helping the livelihood and the continuation in existence of people who have artistic talent in our community.

On the question of art in education, Deputies who mentioned it suggested it is a matter primarily for the Minister for Education. Having been once Minister for Education, I always look back with a degree of sadness on my couple of years in that Department. There were 101 things I wanted to do, many innovations, but by the time I got round to thinking of them I had been translated, as a famous Archbishop of Westminister, Dr. Fisher, said to me one time, from one ignorance to another. I was introduced to him as Minister for Education but by then I had been translated to the Department of Industry and Commerce. He said: "I see you have been removed from one ignorance to another". There was some truth in it because, I suppose, I was ignorant to some extent; I had not had enough experience in so many walks of life that I did not see the opportunities then that I do now of some acknowledgment of these various walks of life when I was Minister for Education.

Even then—and this has been borne out since—there were so many demands on the funds given to any Department, and indeed on the Exchequer itself, that it was impossible, and is, to accede to them all. To the extent I have succeeded since I became Taoiseach in improving the amount of money made available for the Arts Council, I am glad, but I acknowledge it is not nearly enough, certainly not nearly as much as I should like to give, not nearly as much as I know they could use. They, too, have their multifarious demands, and I must compliment them on the manner in which they adjudicate, determine the allocation among the many requests and the requirements they have to meet in their difficult task.

Deputy Collins referred to the Earlsfort Terrace Concert Hall. I understand the Arts Council have been involved in that. They and RTE have submitted proposals, jointly and separately, in relation to the management and the general operation of the hall.

It is with the Department of Finance.

Jointly and separately they have submitted proposals to the Department of Finance in relation to the management and the general operation of the hall. The Deputy also mentioned the prospect of a memorial to Micheál Mac Liammóir. We all took great pride in Micheál Mac Liammóir and I was glad we were able to honour him at least in the city of Dublin, which is not his native city, in a significant way before his death. We often tend to honour those people long after they have died but a start has now been made on the creation of a bursary to commemorate his great contribution not only to Irish theatre but to Irish literature. We all know that he had considerable talents in literature, poetry and prose generally. I hope the Deputy forgives me if I do not refer to all the points he made because I should like to go on to deal with some of the points made by Deputy Quinn.

In opening his contribution, Deputy Quinn said there had been no clear definition of the function and role of the arts in our society. It was partly for this purpose that I announced the setting up of a special group within the civil service to advise me immediately on the extent I should cover the demands being made by a number of theatres and artistic activities that were in dire need of funds. I also established that group with a view to getting a general perspective of the extent we ought to assist and the contribution the arts were making to our society. It is difficult to avoid at this stage the old cliché, "not by bread alone", but I am very conscious of that because even though I might describe myself inwardly as a relative Philistine I have a basic interest in promulgating the arts and trying to generate a livelier interest in the arts and artistic activity generally.

I do not think it is necessary to have cultural agreements for promoting cultural exchanges and activities between countries. There are not many such agreements in operation and we ought to increase that number. Deputy Quinn suggested having a cultural agreement with the USSR but there are many countries with whom we have had diplomatic relations for a longer period but with whom we have not yet made cultural agreements. However, that is something worth while. Reference was made to the exchange of works of art, especially works of antiquary art. At present the Celtic Art Exhibition is in the United States and that exhibition, which was negotiated by Commissioner Burke, when Minister for Education, has done a tremendous amount of good for Ireland's artistic image. The Minister for Education who has visited two or three centres where the exhibition was placed has told us of comments made by American people to the effect that Americans never really realised that Ireland had such a deep and valuable cultural tradition in this respect. I would not like to see too much of that being done because, as Deputy Kelly stated, it is impossible to insure such items because one cannot insure what is priceless, one cannot put a premium on a priceless article. There is also a difficulty in leaving such articles abroad for too long and, apart from the security, there is always the risk of damage or total loss of these works in transit.

With regard to the suggestion that we should move works of art around the country, I should like to point out that there is always a problem about the the location where such items as paintings are put. There is the problem of air-conditioning, too much humidity, too much dryness and such locations must be carefully selected. I support entirely the idea that these things should not all be located in Dublin or in the other areas of concentrated population. We must bear in mind, however, the difficulty of moving such objects around, the conditions in which they are kept and the security problems.

A number of Deputies mentioned the film industry. I should like to state that the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy will be introducing a Bill later this year which I hope will cope not only with the Ardmore Studios but with the creation of an indigenous film industry not so much simply to make money or to be used as a propaganda exercise or, as Deputy Kelly said, as a celluloid Government Information Service, but we would like it to be set up as an artistic enterprise for its own sake.

I cannot comment on the design, or its obliteration, on the carpet before us, as Deputy Kelly did. As he has drawn my attention to it it seems rather unnecessary that the beautiful Celtic design is in the centre where the Clerk, the Clerk Assistant and the Official Reporters sit, thereby obscured to most people. Notwithstanding the castigating of it by Deputy Kelly I still believe it is a beautiful carpet and is well designed and has a colouring which is well in tune with the location in which we find ourselves.

There is not enough red in it.

It may be too blue for the Taoiseach this week.

Deputy Deasy referred to Deputy Haughey's imaginative tax relief for people who produce work of artistic merit within the country. He felt that that relief ought not to be available to millionaires but should assist the less well-off artists. I agree, to a large extent, that assistance is needed for less well-off artists but the relief he mentioned had a two-fold purpose. It was to attract people from abroad to live in Ireland thereby enhancing the artistic image of our country and it was also to get such people to generate whatever earnings they might make into the Irish economy. If there are millionaires amongst that class I should imagine that their millions were made abroad rather than here, even since the relief was introduced. On the other hand, it would be very difficult to differentiate. If we could devise a scale of differentiation the greater relief should be given to the artists who make the least amount of money. However, as Deputy Quinn pointed out, some of the artists are not even in the tax bracket with the result that that relief would not be of much benefit to them.

Deputy Quinn also mentioned the question of social welfare assistance for such people who are badly off and who have artistic talent which may not have been recognised or may not have flourished to the point where they can command fees for their work which would give them a good standard of living. That is something which might be considered and I would favour a scheme whereby people on low income levels who are engaged in artistic activities but whose talents may not have developed to the point where they can command sufficient money for their work to make themselves independent of social welfare services can be encouraged.

Would the Taoiseach deal with my question in relation to VAT?

That is worth looking at but here again we come up against the difficulty of differentiating between different people, different forms of earnings and activities. I suppose the Revenue Commissioners look upon any earnings as coming from some form of commercial activity, some form of work, professional or otherwise, which carries the obligation to pay tax on the remuneration for it.

I do not think there are very many more specific points but in so far as I have not mentioned them in my reply, I shall take note of them certainly. In general, I hope it will be possible to improve the rate of subvention that we make available. I have been impressed, indeed, by the poundage—if you like to call it that—which Deputy Quinn mentioned. We are certainly at the lower end of the scale so far as these islands are concerned, on an average only about 50 per cent, which I think is something that ought to be improved and, in so far as we are able, it will be improved. None of the Deputies opposite has yet had the experience of sitting at an Estimate meeting of the Government. I have had some.

Soon we shall have.

You may have some time. You will have plenty of time to make your requests to whatever Minister comes before you with his Estimates, to ask for more money for this or that. When you come to sitting around the Estimate meeting table, then you realise the difficulties of allocating what we call the scarce resources for so many worthy causes. Support of the arts is a worthy cause. I have succeeded this year in boosting it slightly and I shall try to do better next year.

Vote put and agreed to.
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