Motion that Deputy Browne be suspended from the House.
Estimates 1980. - Suspension of Member.
I move:
That Deputy Browne be suspended from the service of the Dáil.
Motion agreed.
No.
I am putting the motion that Deputy Browne be suspended from the service of the House.
I object that this motion is being put in a very expeditious way.
There can be no debate on the motion.
(Interruptions.)
I must also protest that there seems to be collusion here——
(Interruptions.)
The motion before the House. Is the motion agreed?
The motion is not agreed.
The motion is agreed. Deputy Browne will please leave the House.
The motion is not agreed. I object most strenuously——
Is Deputy O'Brien asking for a vote? The Deputy cannot debate this.
I am not.
The Chair has been progressively restrictive.
Deputy Browne will please leave the House.
The Chair is restricting the freedom of the House and is pursuing——
The House stands adjourned until 7.15 p.m.
Business suspended at 7 p.m. and resumed at 7.15 p.m.
Deputy Dr. Browne has been suspended by motion of the House from the service of the House. I have asked Dr. Browne to leave the House.
A Leas-Cheann Comhairle——
Sorry, there can be no debate at this stage. I have asked Deputy Dr. Browne to leave the House.
On a point of order——
There can be no point of order. The motion has been passed. If Deputy Dr. Browne does not leave the House——
On a point of order——
There can be no point of order when a Deputy by motion has been suspended from the House until the Deputy leaves the House.
The motion was not put.
Would Deputy Dr. Browne please leave the House?
(Cavan-Monaghan): I want to raise a point of order.
There can be no point of order until the motion of the House is obeyed.
(Interruptions).
If Deputy Dr. Browne does not leave the House the Chair will have to take action to ensure that he leaves.
(Cavan-Monaghan): I would ask the Chair to hear the point of order——
If I am going to keep the rules, you are going to keep them.
The motion was passed by the House. I am asking the Captain of the Guard, with regret, to have the Deputy removed from the House and the House stands suspended until 7.30.
Business suspended at 7.20 p.m. and resumed at 7.30 p.m.
On a point of order, I understand that Deputy Noel Browne has been suspended from the service of the House on the grounds that he was speaking about a matter of public concern relevant to the debate as indeed have other Deputies, including myself and Deputy Cluskey as well. I submit to you that there are no grounds upon which a political discussion in this debate, involving the issues of allegations made against the Taoiseach can be ruled out of order and an attempt to do so is a suppression of the freedom of this House and one which is not tolerable in a democratic society.
The Chair already ruled and the matter is now finalised. I am calling Deputy Woods to proceed with the debate.
The situation the House now finds itself in is that one of its Members has been suspended by you for attempting to exercise his democratic rights in the House.
The Chair ruled and gave its reasons for ruling yesterday. The Chair will not repeat those reasons at this stage.
I doubt if the Chair could sustain those reasons.
Before Deputy Browne was suspended he had a notice of motion ready to hand in. It has been handed in and when that notice of motion is reached we can deal with all this matter. I am calling Deputy Woods to continue with the debate.
It is a disgraceful decision.
On a point of order, I am not interested in anticipating what a Deputy might or might not do but I am very interested in the right of any Member of the House to discuss relevant matter in an adjournment debate. You are denying the Members of this House their democratic right. You are prohibiting them from representing their constituents. It is a position which cannot be tolerated in a democratic society.
The Chair ruled yesterday that the matter was not relevant. Deputy Woods to continue with the debate.
(Interruptions.)
Could you cite the precedent for the expulsion of Deputies in this House on an adjournment debate because of the special matter they are discussing?
It is not a point of order.
On a point of order, I want you to cite the precedent for the expulsion of Deputies in this House in an adjournment debate?
(Interruptions.)
Will the Chair recognise a point of order?
I am asking you to hear me on a point of order.
(Interruptions.)
When the Deputies are done shouting in the House possibly the business will continue.
On a point of order——
The Deputy has already made two or three points of order that were not in order.
I am entitled, on a point of order, to ask under what precedent over the last 60 years a Deputy is ruled out of order in an adjournment debate for speaking on a subject of his choice. You ruled in this House last week that any matter could be discussed in the Adjournment Debate.
Deputy Woods to continue the debate.
You went so far as to rule out of order a debate on the economic situation on the very grounds that any matter could be discussed in the Adjournment Debate.
The Chair would expect something more from Deputy FitzGerald.
I and my party look for something more from the Chair.
(Interruptions.)
We obeyed your ruling regarding the ruling out of an economic debate because you gave us grounds for believing that any matter could be discussed in the Adjournment Debate. On what grounds are you now ruling out discussion of such matters?
If you wish to continue this debate tonight——
(Interruptions.)
I have already called the Minister for Health.
(Interruptions.)
Is the Chair capable of maintaining order in the House?
Not with the way Deputy Cluskey and Deputy FitzGerald are carrying on. I have called the Minister for Health and Social Welfare to continue with the debate. He should be allowed to continue.
I am waiting for you to restore order so that I can make a point of order.
I regret that Deputy FitzGerald was not here at the time when this event occurred. That he did not see——
I ask to be recognised on a point of order.
(Interruptions.)
Where is the Taoiseach?
If Deputy Cluskey wants to put a point of order he should be allowed to do so.
(Interruptions.)
Has the Chair the slightest conception what he has done to parliamentary democracy by his refusal to allow any Member of the House——
That is not a point of order.
——to exercise his democratic right and represent his constituents in the House? Could the Chair inform the House on what basis he ruled out of order a discussion on events surrounding the arms crisis?
The matter was dealt with yesterday and the Chair is not going back on it any more. The Chair is entitled to rule and his ruling should not be questioned. The Minister for Health and Social Welfare to continue this debate.
The Chair is not in a dictatorial position. The Chair under the Standing Orders of this House must justify his rulings.
(Cavan-Monaghan): On a point of order, I may have an opportunity of taking part in this debate before it concludes. I want to know if I will be at liberty to make the case that the present Government and the present Taoiseach are not fit to govern the country. That is the case I want to make. I want to know from you if I am entitled to make that case. If I am entitled to make it Deputy Browne should not have been expelled from the House.
The Chair does not anticipate any speech in the House.
You are disgracing the House in the eyes of the public.
(Interruptions.)
I regret that Deputy FitzGerald and Deputy Cluskey were not here when this event occurred.
On a point of order——
This is the last point of order.
Could I ask the Chair, for the information of the House, to tell us the precedent or under what Standing Order he has ruled out discussion which justified the removal of Deputy Noel Browne from this House?
The Deputy was not here at the time.
I am asking you to justify your ruling.
The Chair does not have to justify its rule to Deputy Cluskey or anybody else.
(Interruptions.)
There has been a good deal of confusion.
Would Deputy FitzGerald please leave the Chair to do his job? As I have already said, I would expect something more from Deputy FitzGerald.
(Interruptions.)
It shows how wrong you are.
The Deputy is entitled to his opinion.
I will do my duty to this House and I should like you to explain your ruling on this occasion. I am open to correction on this but I understood your ruling to be that you consider that a matter which had been determined in the courts should not be discussed here. Is that correct?
Again, the Chair is not prepared to go over all that ground. I gave my ruling on this matter yesterday morning and that ruling was accepted by the House.
Deputies:
That is not correct.
Will Deputies please allow business to proceed in an orderly manner?
How can we proceed in an orderly manner if we do not know what your ruling is, if we do not know what it is that we cannot talk about? My understanding is that you ruled out of order discussion of a matter that had been settled in the courts. Is that a correct statement of your ruling?
That would be part of it.
What might the rest of it be?
The Deputy must not question the Chair at this stage.
We are entitled to know what your ruling is.
You have removed a Member from the House.
My ruling is on the records of the House. I ruled yesterday morning that a certain matter——
What matter?
——with allegations, insinuations or innuendos could not be raised during this debate, that it was not relevant to the debate. In the event of any serious allegation being made against any Member of the House, it has been the ruling of the Chair down through the years that such allegation would have to be made by way of formal motion.
(Cavan-Monaghan): That is nonsense.
Any political charge may be made in this House in a debate concerning the Estimate for the Department of the person concerned and this debate relates to the Taoiseach's Department.
The Chair has ruled that a serious allegation against any Member of the House may not be made casually in a debate of this kind, that it would have to be made by way of formal motion.
What was the serious allegation that was made against a Member?
Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick
(Cavan-Monaghan): The charge was made against the Government.
I have asked the Chair to tell us what the serious allegation was that was made against a Member.
I have called the Minister for Health and Social Welfare.