asked the Minister for Finance the composition of the inter-departmental task force being established to draw up proposals for public sector rationalisation; if it has met to date; if its proposals which, according to the budget, are to effect savings of £25 million in 1981, will be published; and if he has yet received any proposals from the task force.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Public Sector Rationalisation.
3.
The interdepartmental task force consists of officers from my Department and the Departments of Education, the Environment and Health under the chairmanship of an officer of the Department of the Public Service. While they have already met and commenced their inquiries, I have not yet received any proposals from them. As the task force is an interdepartmental group, I do not envisage that its proposals will be published.
What is the significance of the choice of the Departments of Education, the Environment and Health to nominate officers and not other Civil Service Departments?
There is no real significance.
Is the Minister aware that the saving of £25 million which the budget says will be made as a result of the activities of this task force would be equivalent to the annual salary of 2,000 civil servants? Assuming that nothing is done for a few months, can the Minister tell me when decisions will be taken and if any civil servants will lose their jobs as a result of the proposals?
The task force has already met and I expect a report in approximately two weeks which will set out the steps that we intend to take. It is not envisaged that there will be any job losses.
How will the money be saved then?
We will see what the task force says.
The Minister is aware that specific provision has been made in the budget to save £25 million. Would one not assume therefore that the Minister had a pretty clear idea as to how this saving was going to be made before he set up the task force?
As I indicated in the budget statement, the task force will make a critical appraisal of the scope for action and draw up proposals as a matter of urgency to achieve savings of the £25 million on the estimates figure. Their task will also be to have a look at the public administration to see what savings can be got by rationalising programmes, administrative machinery and structures.
Did I hear the Minister correctly when he said that the report will not be published?
Yes. It is an inter-departmental task force and it is normal not to publish these reports. We are just following standard procedure.
Is the Minister aware that there has been a long succession of inter-departmental reports, formal and informal, of a task force nature and of a working party nature, that have not been published? Is there any good reason why they should not be published?
There is no good reason. It is normal not to publish them.
Deputy Kelly.
I ask the Minister of State whether this inter-departmental task force consist of civil servants who have been seconded full-time to this work or whether they are simultaneously carrying on their ordinary work in their respective Departments?
As far as I am aware they are carrying on their ordinary work and they meet periodically. They have already met and, of course, they will be given time if they want to have special meetings.
If the Minister of State is really serious or if the Minister on behalf of whom he is speaking is——
A question, Deputy, not a speech.
—— really serious in expecting to save £25 million in spare time discussions, if it is all that easy to find ways of saving £25 million, why has not the Department of the Public Service saved it long ago? Is it not making fools of the House and the people to be pretending ——
That is a speech, Deputy.
—— that in their spare time they can run up plans at occasional meetings to save that money ——
The Deputy can have his own opinions. The task force are meeting and will make a recommendation shortly and I am sure that the Minister will, as time goes by, make any announcements to the House that he feels are necessary.
Would the Minister agree that the answers he has given, especially in reply to the second supplementary, are treasures of waffle which could be written down and given as examples to the young people of the country as to how to say nothing with long words? Would he agree that the words he used, in so far as they have any meaning with regard to rationalisation of administration, imply a reduction in staff which he has denied will take place? That being so, where are the economies of £25 million to come from?
The Deputy is not in the habit of waffling and others in the House are more expert at that than he is. All I can tell him is that the task force have met and they will make recommendations in relation to the £25 million. I do not want to pre-judge what they might do. However, the Government do not want to and will not see any reduction.
A final supplementary from Deputy Quinn. I have allowed eight or nine supplementaries on one question.
That is not much for £25 million.
Would it be correct, on the basis of the information that the Minister of State has given today to the House, that an arbitrary figure of £25 million has been selected by the Government and that this task force have now been given the task of identifying areas where that £25 million might be saved? In reality the £25 million has been selected arbitrarily in advance and this group of people have been asked to propose cuts in order to achieve it.
I could not comment on that.
Ceist 4.
Why cannot the Minister comment?
That is not my business.
(Interruptions.)