It is proposed to take Business in the following order: Nos. 5, 8 (resumed), 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 (resumed). Private Members Business, to be taken from 7 p.m. to 8.30 p.m., will be item No. 19 (resumed).
Order of Business.
May I ask for confirmation that the Taoiseach will be making a statement on the European Council tomorrow afternoon?
Yes, I understand this has been agreed.
I have to interrupt to say that I have pointed out on numerous occasions that matters cannot be raised in this fashion, unless they relate to the matters which I have already announced.
You are creating precedents.
If I or the Leader of the Opposition or somebody else were to give you notice, would that be in order?
If the Taoiseach gave me notice, it would be in order.
The question put to you by the Taoiseach was, if he or I or the Leader of the Labour Party gave you notice would that be in order? Is that agreed? You said if the Taoiseach gave you notice it would be in order. Are you excluding us from this?
I am following Standing Order No. 38. It is open to the Taoiseach to make a statement to the House without a question being asked, if he so desires, but the initiative rests with him.
We have to insist on our right to ask questions on the Order of Business about future business, not the business of the day but future business, which has been the practice of this House for 60 years. You have attempted to change this persistently. We cannot and will not accept it.
I am not changing anything, I am standing over the decisions that I have made in relation to this matter. I have pointed out what I will accept and that is that.
Is it not the case that every decision, virtually every day in the House——
If a Deputy wishes to raise a matter in the form of a question which does not relate to the Order of Business or the other matters that I have already announced, then he can put down a parliamentary question to do so.
(Interruptions.)
There may be some confusion. I wish to clarify this point. I had a telephone call from the Government Whip's office asking me if I would be agreeable to the Taoiseach making a statement on the summit at 3.30 tomorrow afternoon. I said I was agreeable to that. I want to be clear on what you said. I assumed then, and I still assume, that the procedure which was followed in the past was that the Taoiseach would make a statement, the leader of Fine Gael would make a statement and I would make a statement. Is that the procedure to be followed?
That is correct, Deputy.
Thank you. On the Order of Business, with regard to item 16 on today's Order Paper, I will read it:
That Dáil Éireann approves the targets for economic and social development and the supporting policies set out in the Government's White Paper: Programme for National Development 1978. 1981.
That reads like a joke but it is not a joke. Would the Taoiseach be prepared to resume that debate next week to allow the Dáil to discuss the chronic economic situation facing us, where unemployment is running at 126,000 and inflation—I confidently predict— will be revealed tomorrow as running at over 20 per cent? If the Taoiseach is not prepared to use some other vehicle——
The Deputy cannot make a speech, he may ask a question.
Is the question in order?
Yes.
There has been some sporadic discussion about a debate on economic matters but, as I understand it, no decision has been arrived at. I suggest that the Whips meet this morning or this afternoon to see what can be arranged.
Can I clarify what the Taoiseach said while appreciating his response?
In the form of a question, Deputy.
Do I understand the Taoiseach to say that the Government are prepared next week to have a discussion on the economy and that the only subject matter to be discussed between the Whips is the time that it will take place?
No. What I am suggesting is that the Whips discuss whether Government time can and will be provided for such a debate.
Is the——
We cannot have a debate on this.
I am asking a question. Is the Taoiseach——
I am sorry, I cannot allow this to continue.
This is on the Order Paper.
It is, but all the Deputy may do is ask a question.
Are you, Sir, now suggesting that we cannot ask question on the Order Paper?
No, I am not.
Is the Taoiseach indicating to the House that he is prepared to discuss a motion that would be moved, I assume, by the Government in order to allow us to discuss the catastrophic economic situation or is he proposing that we discuss when item 16 will be resumed?
I am not proposing anything specific at this stage. I remind the Leader of the Labour Party that we will shortly have to discuss the Finance Bill. Whereas that gives us an opportunity to discuss some measure of economic matters, I am suggesting that the Whips meet and consider the business before us and what is urgent and whether Government time can and will be provided for some motion on the economic situation, or what procedure can be arrived at.
The Taoiseach then is saying that he recognises the major difficulties which we are in as far as the economy is concerned?
This is becoming a debate.
It is an abuse of parliamentary privilege by Deputy Cluskey to continue to avail of this time of the day to make ex parte statement which I, adhering to order, am continually prevented from replying to.
(Interruptions.)
Deputy FitzGerald.
Where is Lenihan this morning? Is he across somebody's knee this morning?
Deputy John Kelly has asked "where is Lenihan this morning?" Would the Chair take note of this and ask him to refer to the Minister for Foreign Affairs?
(Interruptions.)
Would the Minister please resume his seat? Deputy FitzGerald.
The Taoiseach's reply to the questions put to him about this question of a debate appears to me to contain an element of ambiguity and I want to be clear that the principle of a debate on the economy has been agreed and all that has to be discussed is the timing. Is that the position? I want a straight yes or no.
The Deputy should understand that that is not the position. What I said very explicitly is that the Whips should meet to discuss and decide whether a debate can be arranged, the terms of that debate and time of it.
The Taoiseach is seeking to mislead the House because he was seeking to give the impression that he is being conciliatory in giving a debate.
A question, Deputy.
I want to ask if the Taoiseach agrees that there will be a debate and the Whips will agree to meet to agree the time, or will he evade this issue?
You were beaten to it.
Deputy FitzGerald can find no grounds for what he is suggesting. Every Deputy in the House perhaps, except himself, is quite clear on what I did say. I said that the Whips can meet to decide whether such a debate can be arranged, whether it should be arranged and what time it should be arranged.
(Interruptions.)
The Taoiseach has introduced a red herring. We will not accept a Second Reading debate on the Finance Bill as a debate on the economy.
On the Order of Business, I wish to give notice that I want to raise on the Adjournment the staff dispute at the third level colleges attached to the City of Dublin VEC and its effect on the setting of examinations.
I will Communicate with the Deputy.
Can the Taoiseach tell us whether the Minister for Education will be introducing a supplementary estimate to deal with the cash crisis in the universities?
That is not in order.
I would like to give notice that on the Adjournment—I have to be very careful of what I say this time—I wish to raise the matter of the delay in publicising the Department of the Environment Report on the Bundoran fire.
I will communicate with the Deputy.
Sir, is it your opinion that Deputy John Kelly is in order in asking, "Where is Lenihan"?
You called Deputy Cooney a fascist.
(Interruptions.)
All you grateful caddies have done your duty for the day. You are let off now.