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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 26 Mar 1981

Vol. 328 No. 2

Estimates. 1981. - Vote 37: Fisheries.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £20,194,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31 December, 1981, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry including sundry grants-in-aid.

With your permission, A Cheann Chomhairle, I propose that the usual practice of discussing the Fisheries and Forestry Estimates together be followed—in which case I shall move the Forestry Estimate after the debate concludes.

The Fisheries Estimate shows an increase of £2,492,000 over last year's vote. The overall increase is due mainly to increases of £1,100,000 to An Bord Iascaigh Mhara for Capital Development (grant-in-aid), £675,800 for Inland Fisheries Development, £576,000 for main fishery harbour works and £287,760 for salaries, wages and advances. Reductions occur in the grant for Administration and Current Development to An Bord Iascaigh Mhara (£288,300) and in the provision for grants, under the Fishery Harbour Centres Act, 1968 (£5,000).

The value of domestic landings of sea fish in 1980, excluding salmon landings, amounted to £28.9m as against £24.9m in 1979, an increase of 16 per cent. In addition, there were landings into foreign ports amounting to at least £6m. The total quantity of fish landed at home in 1980 was approximately 135,000 tonnes. This is a record figure and represents an increase of 49,000 tonnes over the 1979 catch.

The value of exports of all fish and fishery products in 1980 reached the record figure of £41 million as compared with £33 million in 1979, representing an increase of 24 per cent, not a bad achievement in a difficult period.

Over 60 firms are involved in fish processing operations, employing about 1,600 people. A total of 24 projects, incorporating either new processing plants or extensions to existing ones, have been approved for grant purposes in the calendar year 1980, involving a total state investment of approximately £1.6 million.

Provision of improved harbour works where they are needed for fish landings, berthing of boats and other necessary facilities at fishing ports is progressing steadily. For Killybegs, a contract is being placed for the dredging of the harbour to provide adequate depth in the harbour generally and additional depth in specific areas to meet the needs of the bigger boats which have recently been added to the fishing fleet. Work is well advanced on the construction of the auction hall and port offices. Tenders will issue shortly for the civil engineering works in connection with the installation of the syncrolift unit for the repair of boats. The machinery for the syncrolift has been supplied. Development of the White House property to provide for the erection of a larger ice plant and automatic telephone exchange and for the resiting of oil installations is well advanced.

Work on the infrastructure for the industrial estate on Dinish Island, Castle-townbere, is now completed apart from the provision of an effluent disposal plant for the island. Tenders have been received for this plant and the work will commence this year. Completion of a 38 K V electricity supply to the area to cater for all foreseeable electric power needs is expected to be completed early next year. Construction of a fish processing plant on Dinish Island by Eironova Ltd., an Irish subsidiary of the Spanish firm Pescanova, is completed. I understand that the plant is ready to commence operations. The syncrolift unit is now fully operational.

At Howth development of the fishery harbour is well advanced. The dredging and rock blasting within the new fishery harbour area has been completed. Reclamation of the foreshore on both sides of the west pier has also been completed. The extra space thus obtained will be utilised for siting an auction hall, syncrolift unit, net, gear and repair facilities for fishermen. The whole area included in the scheme will be landscaped to fit in with the existing environmental aspect. To date expenditure on the scheme is £3.5 million and during this year it is expected that a further £2 million will be spent. Hand in hand with the fishery harbour development, excavation work is being undertaken to provide a site for a yacht marina in the eastern side of Howth Harbour.

I intend in the very near future to declare Rossaveal a major fishery harbour centre. With this in mind I set up in June 1980 the Rossaveal Harbour Development Advisory Committee, on which all interested parties were represented, to recommend for my consideration appropriate works in order of priority for the development of the infrastructure of Rossaveal harbour. I expect that the committee's report with recommendations will be available in the course of the next few months.

Work on the large-scale improvements at Cahirciveen and on improvements at eight smaller fishing ports, will be continued during the year and it is hoped to start works for which I have approved grants at Greencastle, Burtonport and Portevlin Co. Donegal, Killala, Co. Mayo and Schull, Co. Cork, as well as lesser works at 28 other fishery ports around the coast.

The grant-in-aid to An Bord Iascaigh Mhara for 1981 for administration and current development amounts to £3,496,200 and the grant-in-aid for capital development amounts to £6,000,000. Additional funds are available by way of repayable advances from the Central Fund, a line of credit from financial institutions and the board's own resources to meet the demand by fishermen for loans for boats, gear and so on. In addition to subvention towards the purchase of boats and gear the board's grant-in-aid for capital development also covers the provision of services to the fishing industry such as ice plants and training and grants for mariculture. The reduction in the grant for current expenditure arises because provision is not included to meet boatyard losses as was the case in previous years.

The introduction of the mariculture grant scheme administered by An Bord Iascaigh Mhara and geared to the development of fish-farming projects has been a very significant development in this sector. Under the scheme, grants of up to 30 per cent of capital expenditure may be made available, thus giving a tremendous boost to this fast-developing industry. I intend to make an order bringing into effect the revised legislative procedures outlined in section 54 of the Fisheries Act, 1980, in the near future, giving the industry the direction that it urgently requires. Last year the value of production was £1.5 million; this year it is expected to reach £2 million.

Deputies will recall that Mr. Brendan O'Kelly announced last year that he proposed to leave the board to return to the private sector. The board has now decided, with my approval, to appoint Dr. Tony Meaney, hitherto resource development manager, to be his successor as chief executive officer. I would like to wish Dr. Meaney well in his new appointment. I will be making an announcement shortly about a new chairman of the board.

Deputies will be aware that a Council decision of 30 May 1980 set a firm date of 1 January 1981 for agreement on a Common Fisheries Policy. I regret to say that, in spite of this and of continuing intensive negotiations, we still have not achieved accord. This is particularly regrettable as there has been considerable progress in some aspects of the policy. It might be helpful to remind Deputies of the various sectors which form the cohesive whole of a Common Fisheries Policy, as follows:—

(1) Access—This is one of the main stumbling blocks, I can assure the House that I will hold firm to my position that we must achieve a reserved coastal zone exclusive to our fishermen. The extent of such zone will depend on the outcome of negotiations. While I am not in a position, as some people seem to think, to decide on my own the terms that will apply to this country, I wish to assure the House that my untiring efforts will be directed towards securing the most advantageous terms possible.

(2) Total Allowable Catches (TACs)—these are decided on a species and area basis and in the main are based on scientific advice on fish stocks in consultation with the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea (ICES) and the EEC's own Scientific and Technical Committee. Agreement was reached on TACs for 1980 and the 1981 proposals are now on the table.

(3) Quotas—These are the allocations to each member state of the TACs and understandably are the source of much discussion. We are greatly helped in this sector by the Hague Agreement in accordance with which we were entitled to double our 1975 catch by 1979. As in the case of the TACs, quota proposals for 1981 are on the table and, while agreement can be achieved only in the context of an overall package being settled, I am reasonably confident that our entitlement under the Hague Agreement will be met.

(4) Conservation—Technical measures for conservation of fish stocks such as limitations on mesh sizes of fish have already been agreed.

(5) Structures—This heading embraces the provision of Community aid for the restructuring of the fleet and includes such items as aid for scrapping and laying-up of vessels, purchase and modernisation of vessels, aquaculture, the encouragement of exploratory voyages for new fishing grounds and the setting up of joint fishing ventures with third countries. Our main interest in this sector is in the granting of aid for new vessels and aquaculture, where we have in the past been particularly successful, having been approved for grants amounting to 31 per cent of the total funds available in the period 1976-1979. No decision has yet been received on the current applications but I am confident that we will achieve a satisfactory share of the available funds there too. Considerable progress has been made on these proposals.

(6) Marketing—One of the contributory factors to the present bad situation in fish marketing is that the current marketing regulations date back to 1970 and are seen to be inadequate for present-day market conditions. A new marketing proposal is under discussion but, by its very nature, it is a complicated document and will require intensive study. I have consistently emphasised the importance of this proposal and I am hopeful that we can make progress towards establishing a more stable market in the near future. Meanwhile, I have insisted that all the existing marketing measures available to the Community be used to their fullest extent in order to alleviate some of the serious problems now facing Community fishermen.

While the past year has been a difficult one in the marketing of certain species at economic prices, I do not accept that the industry is in a crisis situation as suggested in some quarters. There is already an improvement in market prices mainly as a result of measures taken at EEC level following sustained pressure from me and my Department. I refer, for instance, to abolition of duty suspensions and increased reference prices. The increased demand for mackerel at satisfactory prices and the renewed demand for Dublin Bay prawns are also worthy of mention. As I already mentioned, the value of our landings increased by 16 per cent in 1980 as compared with 1979. This is a significant increase which went a long way to offsetting the increases in costs. I will continue to press at EEC level for the early introduction of a revised marketing regulation which will provide proper protection for Community fishermen against cheap imports from third countries.

We also need to improve our marketing techniques and to endeavour to find markets for the less popular species. BIM in consultation with the trade are fully committed to expanding market outlets and the opening up of a market for Irish mackerel in Nigeria last year was firm evidence of the success of the Board's efforts

There has been a lot of publicity recently about possible resumption of fishing vessels by BIM.

What does the Minister mean by resumption?

I suppose taking over, taking back, acquisition of vessels by BIM.

Seizure. Is that the reason why——

Please allow the Minister to continue without interruption.

Everyone can whistle his own tune. I would like to assure Deputies that BIM are acting very responsibly in this matter and every effort is made to find a solution before a vessel is resumed. BIM do not want to resume vessels but on occasions they have no option but to do so. I recently set up a working group, comprised of representatives of the board, the Irish Fishermen's Organisation and my Department to study the problem of arrears and make recommendations towards providing a solution wherever possible.

Before passing from sea-fisheries I would like to refer to the expanded role of the National Fishery Training Centre at Greencastle at which an expanded range of courses is now available. The acquisition by BIM of a mobile training unit will take training to fishermen in their home ports. This is a very desirable development and I sincerely hope that it will receive the full support of fishermen.

I now turn to our inland fisheries. The most important event on the inland fisheries side in 1980 was the passing of the Fisheries Act, 1980 which came into operation on 18 March. The main objective of the Act is to update and widen the scope of our inland fisheries executive agencies so as to enable them to cope with the exigencies of modern times. We look to the Fisheries Act, 1980 to accomplish this objective by securing the more effective conservation, management and development of every aspect of our important natural inland fishery resources — salmon, trout, coarse fish, eels, and including sea angling resources for the benefit of our own people and as a valuable attraction for tourists from abroad. To that end in October 1980 I established, in accordance with the Act, the Central Fisheries Board and seven regional fisheries boards, with their fulltime chief officer and regional fisheries managers, to replace the former 17 boards of conservators and the Inland Fisheries Trust which were dissolved under the Act. I am pleased to say that the whole-time staffs of the former boards of conservators and the trust, with their wide experience of fisheries conservation and protection work, continue to be employed by the new boards without any downgrading of their working conditions. Although the new boards have only been recently established they have already shown a firm commitment to carrying out the tasks assigned to them under the Act. The Fisheries Act, 1980, provides also for significant increases in the penalties for inland fishery offences which emphasises further the Government's concern for this valuable national asset.

The most important part of our inland fisheries is our salmon fisheries. Provisional figures for 1980 show that the total weight of the salmon catch by all fishing methods was 895 metric tonnes valued at £3.2 million as compared with 1,073 metric tonnes in 1979 valued at £5.03 million. The overall weight of the salmon catch in 1980 showed a fall of 16 per cent on the 1979 catch which in turn was 9 per cent below the catch of 1,180 metric tonnes in 1978. This decline in our salmon catch in recent years continues to be a cause for concern. In that regard I would strongly exhort everybody engaged in the salmon industry, whether as fishermen or authorised salmon dealers, to comply with the statutory salmon conservation measures which are designed to allow a sufficient escapement of salmon to our rivers to spawn, while at the same time permitting a reasonable exploitation of the stock to the benefit of our commercial salmon fishermen, dealers, processors, exporters and our native and visiting salmon anglers.

Despite the fall in the salmon catch in 1980 there were some encouraging signs for the future. For example, the run of the large spring fish was the best for many years while escapement of salmon to the spawning grounds last year was quite satisfactory. On social and economic grounds I extended last year's salmon fishing season by two weeks in the Waterford and Lismore fishery districts and by one week in areas other than the east coast where the season ended later. I am continuing the extension this year and I have also restored the five day fishing week for commercial fishing. This is as far as I can go to meet the wishes of the fishermen until there is further evidence of an improvement in the stock situation.

On 26 May 1980 I made regulations under the Fisheries Act, 1980, which introduced a levy on the first sales of salmon. The amount of levy collected to date in respect of the 1980 season is £156,161. The purpose of the levy is to provide funds towards the conservation and development of our inland fisheries additional to the money provided by the Government out of the Exchequer, which is £3.1 million in 1981. I may say that I do not consider it unreasonable to seek from persons benefiting directly from our salmon stocks such a contribution towards the heavy costs of conserving and developing our inland fisheries.

In discussions with fishermen and others engaged in salmon fishing and exporting they have accepted the principle of contributing to the development of the industry and my Department are examining suggested alternatives to the levy submitted by fishery organisations. However, if the protection and development of our valuable inland fisheries is to be continued there is not alternative but to maintain the levy for this year at least. I might add that the salmon levy has been provided for in the Fisheries Act, 1980, which was passed by this House last year.

As to the protection of our salmon fisheries, my Department, with the co-operation of the Minister for Defence, arranged again for vessels of the Naval Service to patrol our salmon fisheries during the 1980 season in support of the Garda and the fisheries protection staffs of the boards of conservators. This joint salmon fishery protection effort was well worthwhile and resulted in the seizure and removal from our salmon fisheries of large numbers of illegal fishing nets.

My Department are at present consulting with the naval and Garda authorities with a view to arranging naval patrols of our salmon fisheries with a backup of land based Garda support where necessary during the 1981 season in co-operation with the protection staffs of the regional fisheries boards.

Work on the construction of the extension to Cong salmon hatchery which was started in 1978 is scheduled for completion within the next few months at a total estimated cost of £182,000. The extension will produce 100,000 salmon smolts a year when in full production and so will make a worthwhile contribution towards the rehabilitation of salmon rivers as nesessary.

My Department acquired the Galway fishery in 1978 and I am pleased to say that its operation from a commercial viewpoint continues to be very successful and showed a surplus of almost £44,000 in 1980. The Department are carrying out a research programme at the fishery, designed to provide important information for its future management.

The Salmon Research Trust of Ireland Inc. which is funded jointly by my Department and Messrs. Arthur Guinness, Son and Company Limited, continues its research into the biology of the salmon and the factors bearing on its future survival as a species. A grant-in-aid of £45,000 is allocated to the trust in 1981.

An amount of £100,000 is included in the Estimates to meet our contribution towards the expenses of the Foyle Fisheries Commission. The money will be used to offset the commission's estimated financial deficit in 1981, which is continuing to rise. The rise in deficit is due largely to substantial increases in the costs for wages, salaries and to a fall in profits from the commission's commercial fishery due to the declining salmon catch. I am satisfied, however, that the commission are making every effort to reduce their annual deficit. To that end the commission increased the licence duties payable for salmon fishing licences in the Foyle area for 1980 and 1981, and will continue to seek means of reducing their overall expenditure consistent with the carrying out of the commission's obligations under the Foyle Fisheries Acts to conserve and manage the fisheries of the Foyle area.

Regarding pollution control, much interest has centred around the efforts being made to restore Lough Sheelin to its former position as one of the best natural trout fisheries in Europe.

Recommendations made by an interdepartmental technical committee set up by me include the introduction of a transport subsidy scheme to remove excess slurry from the catchment. I am glad to report that the scheme is working satisfactorily and has resulted in 2.5 million gallons of slurry being transported out of the catchment to date while arrangements are under way to move a further 3.5 million gallons shortly.

The scheme is administered by a management committee consisting of representatives of my Department, the local authority, the Department of Agriculture, ACOT, the Central Fisheries Board, the pig producers and the recipients.

Having dealt extensively with fishery matters, I will now turn my attention to the Forestry Estimates, including the Supplementary. On the main Forestry Vote, the nett amount required this year—£32,011,000, represents an increase of £6,787,000 as compared with last year. This is due in the main to higher salaries and wages, a very substantial increase in the funds for land acquisition and additional funds for forest roads and harvesting operations, but it is partly offset by an increase of £857,000 in Appropriations-in-aid.

As some subheads of the Vote provide for about the same level of activity as last year I do not propose to analyse them at this stage. The main subheads in question are as follows:

Subhead B.2—Post office Services at £236,300; Subhead C.3—Sawmilling at £290,400; Subhead E.—Forestry Education at £160,400; Subhead F.—John F. Kennedy Park at £167,000.

However, when replying to the debate I will, of course, be happy to deal with these subheads in such detail as Deputies may require.

I will now move on to those provisions in the main Estimate which show significant changes from last year and I will also comment, at the appropriate point, on the provisions in the Supplementary Estimate.

Subhead A1—£8,820,590—relates to the salaries, wages and allowances of Forest and Wildlife Service personnel. The subhead shows an increase of £496,690 as compared with last year and includes provision for a limited number of additional posts which are an inescapable feature of the expanding activities of the Forest and Wildlife Service, particularly in the light of the very important developments which have recently taken place in relation to the setting up of a medium density fibreboard plant and about which I will fully inform the House in a few moments.

Subhead B.1—£1,545,000: This subhead provides for travelling and incidental expenses and shows an increase of £296,400 on the amount made available last year. Travelling is an inescapable feature of the afforestation programme and adequate funds are essential if field operations are not to grind to a halt. The great bulk of the expenditure incurred arises in the domestic context, that is, in managing the national network of State forests and supervising the substantial workforce engaged therein; only a small proportion is represented by foreign travel.

Subhead B.3—£146,000: The proposed increase of £61,800 in this subhead, which relates to office machinery and other supplies, arises from the necessity to acquire some additional equipment for the Forest and Wildlife Service at its headquarters and provincial centres.

Subhead C.1: Grant-in-Aid for acquisition of Land—£3,300,000 as Deputies will see, there is provision for an increase of £3 million over last year in the grant-in-aid for land acquisition. I should explain that the amount originally allocated to the acquisition fund in 1980 was £900,000, but when the necessity for a Supplementary Estimate arose during the year the accumulated level of funds in the grant-in-aid was such that it was possible, having regard to anticipated commitments for the year, to utilise £600,300 towards reducing the supplementary demand. Thus, the subhead provision was cut back to £299,700, but, I hasten to add, this did not adversely affect the land acquisition programme last year, the overall expenditure on which amounted to about £1.25 million and brought in 9,700 acres of plantable land. As a result of the substantially improved price which the FWS can now pay for land and also because of an apparent general loosening of the land market, land acquisition prospects for afforestation are looking much brighter and it is against that background that the unusually high provision is being made in the acquisition fund this year. The balance in the fund at 31 December 1980 stood at about £743,500 and this, together with the net sum of £3.2 million now being proposed, means that there will be an aggregate of about £4 million available for land acquisition in the current year — this is, in fact, the highest amount ever provided for the purpose in a single year.

Closer examination of likely expenditure over the rest of the year has enabled me to reduce the original requirement in the grant-in-aid by £100,000 as a small contribution towards offsetting the cost of the Supplementary Estimate necessitated by recent developments in the wood industry field. Present indications are that land intake for forestry in 1981 will be about 16,000 acres and, although this still falls far short of the intake required to support a planting programme with 25,000 acres per annum as its objective, it will at least go some way towards improving the unsatisfactory land-reserve situation which has resulted from the decline in land acquisition in recent years.

The funds in subhead C.1 also include some provision for land acquisition for wildlife conservation purposes and in this connection the purchase of the internationally important flora habitat at Pollardstown Fen is currently the primary objective.

Subhead C.2 — Forest Development and Management: £23,175,200: This subhead which, as usual, constitutes the main focal point of expenditure in the Forestry Vote, represents an increase of £4,041,500 over the 1980 provision. As Deputies will be aware, the subhead, in its totality, caters for the very wide variety of activities inevitably associated with the development and management of a national forest estate which at 31 December 1980 embraced some 370,000 hectares, 900,000 acres, of land, of which 300,000 hectares, 740,000 acres, have been planted. These activities include such aspects as the production of nursery stock, the establishment, maintenance and protection of State plantations, public recreation facilities; purchase, maintenance and hire of machinery; construction of forest roads; and the cost of timber harvesting and conversion. In other words, the expenditure provided in the subhead embraces the broad spectrum of operations essential to the smooth running, consistent with economy, of the entire State afforestation programme, including the employment of a workforce of some 2,700 men.

As Deputies will see, the provision for many of these sub-elements, after allowing for the inevitable increase in wages and prices, reflects much the same level of activity as last year. I shall, therefore, concentrate on those aspects which I feel merit special comment, such as the planting programme, forest roads, mechanical equipment and amenity development. However, if there are any other aspects on which the House requires detailed information, I will supply it in the course of my reply to the debate.

While the planting programme continues to have an annual output of 10,000 hectares, 25,000 acres, as its objective, some difficulties have been experienced in recent years in achieving this target. This is due largely to the land acquisition problems already referred to — but now, we hope, showing signs of improving — and also to an imbalance in the distribution of the reserve of plantable land which tends to be concentrated in western counties. The total area planted in the 1980 planting season was 7,600 hectares, 19,000 acres. The current season's planting programme, which is now nearing completion, is expected to increase the area under State forestry by about 7,000 hectares, 17,500 acres.

Incidentally, the afforestation programme includes the planting of a small area of short rotation forestry which is being undertaken in the solar energy context under an EEC-assisted biomass project in which my Department are co-operating with a number of other State agencies.

I think it would not be understating the situation to say that, with more and more State forests coming to maturity, we have now reached an important stage in Irish forestry, one in which the massive investment in terms of capital and labour over the years — but especially in the period since the second World War — is beginning to show a worthwhile financial return. It is hardly surprising, therefore, that in a situation where from now onwards timber harvesting will be a major activity, there will have to be much greater emphasis on forest roads and machinery.

There is a compelling need to update and replace much of the machinery and equipment used by the Forest and Wildlife Service in connection with road-making and harvesting operations. Moreover, an adequate network of forest roads is absolutely essential to facilitate extraction of the increasing volume of timber — pulpwood and sawlog — to be harvested, and thus ensure that supply commitments to existing and new industries, especially in the light of recent developments on this front, can be fully met.

The need for such expenditure is highlighted by the decision of the Medford Corporation of Oregon, USA to set up a company to undertake the manufacture of medium density fibre board in this country. The advent of this company has resulted largely from the close co-operation between the Industrial Development Authority and my Department in seeking a dependable outlet for forest thinnings.

The Medford Corporation of Oregon is a major US wood-processing company engaged in the manufacture of plywood, veneer, general timber and fibreboard. In the sphere of medium density fibreboard production — a quality product used principally for furniture manufacture — it is among the world's leading producers. Ireland will be its first production facility outside the USA, with production aimed at European markets.

It is expected that the Clonmel plant will be completed in 1983 and, at full production, will employ 200 workers in the factory with a further 250 engaged in timber harvesting.

Deputies are no doubt aware that, following on the closure of most of our mills processing small dimension wood, there have been serious difficulties in providing markets for forest thinnings. We cannot reap the benefit of producing good sawlog — from which the main income of forestry derives — unless forests can be thinned regularly. Forest thinnings are now coming increasingly on stream as the heavy plantings of earlier years reach commercial stage of development.

In these circumstances, the Government — having regard to the considerable national economic advantage involved — last year authorised the placing of contracts, for a limited period, with the remaining pulpwood-processing firms for the harvesting and removal of small material in specified State forests, utilising the services of experienced harvesting gangs for the purpose. Moreover, it became necessary to permit temporary exportation of unprocessed wood in a further effort to keep the forests thinned. The medium density fibre board plant being established by the Medford Corporation at Clonmel will reverse this position and provide a major outlet for our suplus material for some years to come, as well as generating the 450 new jobs already mentioned.

The proposed increases, aggregating £3,289,500, in subheads C.2 (3), (5) and (7) this year, largely reflect the necessity for the Forest and Wildlife Service to set about gearing itself towards meeting its obligations in relation to wood supply, and to that end the funds involved will — in addition to improving the plant and machinery situation — enable a substantial expansion in the forest roads programme to be commenced. I should point out that subhead C.2 (7) also includes a sum of £450,000 to meet the cost in the current year of direct harvesting of thinnings by pulpwood processors under the contract arrangements to which I have referred.

Subhead C.2 (4) — £792,200 — provides funds for amenity and recreational facilities in the State forests. The amount sought, which represents an increase of £86,800 on last year's provision, will be used in connection with major on-going development, to forest park standard, of existing facilities at Doneraile, County Cork and Currachase, County Limerick and also for the upkeep and maintenance, in response to popular demand, of the eight existing forest parks and the numerous other amenity areas in forest locations throughout the country.

Some initial work is being put in hands this year at Donadea Forest, County Kildare which has been designated as the site for a new forest park, and this should mark the beginning of a significant improvement in the existing amenity there. Other areas of special interest to the Forest and Wildlife Service and at which development work is in progress are Three Rock Mountain, County Dublin, and Farran, County Cork which, being adjacent to the major population centres of Dublin and Cork, respectively, already attract large numbers of visitors steadily throughout the year, but especially at weekends. My Department is also co-operating with Shannonside Tourism Organisation in providing a site for a proposed caravan/camping park in that locality.

During 1980, in co-operation with my Department, the National Sports Council, operating under the aegis of the Minister of State at the Department of Education, opened an 18 mile stretch of a long distance walk as part of the planned Wicklow Way. A further 38 miles stage, currently under preparation, is expected to be completed later this year. Much of this interesting walk — which is ultimately seen as part of an Ireland Way — traverses State plantations.

Deputies will recall that provision for a sum of £400,000 was made last year under subhead C.4 to enable the receiver at Chipboard Limited (Scariff) to continue operations for a limited period while proposals for restructuring the company were being considered. In the event, having regard to the level of income accruing to the company under the receiver's management not all of that allocation was required by 31 December last. Provision for assistance to a level of £100,000 is being made for 1981.

I would like to refer Deputies to the Supplementary Estimate — which contains a new subhead, namely C5, which provides £1,293,000 — and put the House in the picture in relation to the proposed restructuring of Chipboard Limited, Scariff, in receivership, and the formation of a new company to carry on the business of particle production. As I have already stated, the general recession following the oil crisis of the mid-seventies had very serious repercussions for the four mills using pulpwood from the State forests. Various efforts — either by way of financial assistance or by proposals for restructuring — were made by State agencies, including my Department, to assist the mills to survive the recession but, regrettably — with one exception — these proved unsuccessful and the industries had to close.

The one remaining mill, Chipboard Limited, in receivership, has continued in production with the aid of a State grant to the receiver and also a special arrangement whereby the firm is paid to harvest thinnings from certain State forests. The Government decided that every effort should be made to save this remaining mill and, it is proposed with the funds provided in the Supplementary Estimate, to enter into an agreement with a local consortium to set up a new company — to be known as Chipboard Products Limited — to purchase the assets of Chipboard Limited, in Receivership, from the receiver with a view to continuing the business of particle board manufacture at Scariff. Heads of agreement, subject to contract, have already been signed and we are working as quickly as possible towards completion of the necessary contracts.

The envisaged agreement can be summarised as follows: The new company will have an ordinary share capital of £527,000. Of this, private shareholders will provide £193,000 and the State will provide £334,000. There will be provision for a share option scheme which, if taken up, will increase the private share capital to £231,000.

The State will also subscribe at par for £200,000 15 per cent redeemable cumulative preference shares to be redeemed by 18 equal semi-annual instalments commencing on the first day of the fourth year. Dividends on these shares will be declared — but not paid — during the first three years, and the accumulated unpaid dividends will be paid in 18 equal semi-annual instalments commencing on the first day of the fourth year.

My Department will provide a loan of £466,000 to the new company for a period of 12 years. The loan will bear interest at the Exchequer lending rate ruling at the date of draw down and will be for a period of 12 years, including a moratorium of three years on payments of interest and principal. During the moratorium period interest will be capitalised half yearly and the loan, together with the interest so capitalised, will be repaid by way of 18 equal consecutive semi-annual instalments. The agreement will provide for review of interest provisions at the request of the board of the company and for the mandatory prepayment of the loan in circumstances of excess cash flow. The loan will be a first charge on the assets of the company, subject only to the security provided to the bank for a specified loan facility.

There will also be provision for the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry provided he continues to be satisfied with the company's programme and the commercial justification for it, — subject to the consent of the Minister for Finance—to provide capital grants totalling £1,012,000 over a three-year period to the company. Grant agreements will be in terms similar to IDA grant agreements. Provision for the first year's grant of £293,000 is included in the Supplementary Estimate.

In addition to the foregoing direct financial provisions, the Goverment will guarantee £400,000 of a bank loan of £750,000 to the company.

The total provision required under subhead C5 in the Supplementary Estimate is therefore, £1,293,000 made up as follows:— Share capital, £334,000; Preference shares, £200,000; Loan to company, £466,000; Capital grant, £293,000.

The agreement will also provide for loans to the company by private investors of £57,000 for a period of five years, including a moratorium of 3 years on interest and principal repayments.

It is proposed that the State will nominate four directors to the new company and the private shareholders three.

My Department also proposes to continue for three years the arrangement whereby the existing company was paid to harvest a proportion of its wood requirements from State forests and remove the wood free of charge. For this purpose a sum of £450,000 is, as I have already indicated, provided for separately in subhead C2 (7) of the main Estimate.

I will, of course, be happy to give Deputies any further details which they may require in relation to the proposed new company.

My Department continue their policy of encouraging private forestry through the provision of grants and free technical advice. These grants are provided for under subhead D which, with £60,000, shows an increase of £10,000 over 1980. An improved grant structure was introduced by me early last year and, while its full effects will not be evident for some time, it does at this stage necessitate a modest increase in the financial provision.

Generally speaking, the traditional response by the private sector in regard to afforestation in this country has been poor and contrasts very markedly with the situation in other EEC member states. However, I am glad to say that there are hopeful indications that this situation is now changing. I welcome this development wholeheartedly and look with confidence to an acceleration of private planting—indeed, to the stage where it can make a much greater contribution to the overall national afforestation programme which up to now has virtually relied entirely on State forestry.

In this connection I should mention that the forestry proposals in the EEC "Western Package", with their emphasis on private forestry, will provide a major boost for private planting, especially in the western region. Final details of the package as a whole are still under discussion in Brussels but I hope to be in a position to make an announcement in relation to the forestry element fairly soon. For the moment I shall confine myself to saying that the grant levels envisaged under the project will afford a most attractive inducement to landowners in western counties to devote a substantial acreage of marginal land to tree growing in the coming decade. It is my hope that, when the scheme comes into operation, it will provide a solid basis on which to start redressing the imbalance that exists between State and private forestry.

In subhead G, Game Development and Management—£444,600 there is an increase of £62,300, due in the main to remuneration of the wildlife rangers. The ranger service, which at present numbers 49 officers, is concerned with the better enforcement of the Wildlife Act, 1976. While an important function of the rangers relates to the hunting scene, their sphere of responsibility extends across the whole spectrum of conversation controls envisaged under the Act and includes a variety of duties such as monitoring the commercial trade in wildlife, census of wildlife species, assisting in special ecological studies, checking game council schemes and so on. Incidentally, in addition to the 49 strong corps of rangers I should mention that some 600 forestry personnel have been authorised to enforce the provisions of the Act within their allotted forest areas throughout the country.

Grants to regional game councils to assist their local schemes for game development are also provided for under subhead G. These schemes, which are drawn up and monitored by the Department's Wildlife Advisory Service in association with the game coucils, are geared in the main towards restocking of gun club preserves with pheasant and mallard, as well as some habitat improvement and educational projects. In addition, grants on a lesser scale are made available for the development of controlled shooting facilities for out-of-state visitors: these projects are sponsored by a joint committee representative of the Forest and Wildlife Service and Bord Fáilte.

On subhead H—Wildlife conservation: £150,000—I should explain, for information of Deputies, that, this year, this subhead is being converted, with the concurrence of the Minister for Finance, to an ordinary subhead from its previous format as a grant-in-aid. As a grant-in-aid, the annual provision was paid into a wildlife conservation account, the unexpected balance of which was carried forward from year to year to enable commitments arising, but not finalised, within a particular year, to be met in a subsequent year. In this context, the purchase of land for conservation purposes would be the most relevant case in point but, as the funds for this activity are borne by subhead C.I., there are no compelling reasons for retaining subhead H as a grant-in-aid—hence the change-over to a normal subhead and the closing of the conservation account. This change has no practical implications for the wildlife conservation programme and the amount being provided this year will, as heretofore, be used for a variety of conservation-oriented activities including wildlife research, management of nature reserves, publicity and education, and grants to outside bodies towards conservation projects.

The protection of habitats is perhaps the most important aspect of wildlife conservation. Work is continuing on the identification of important habitats, in both State and private ownership, with a view to establishing and managing a representative national network of nature reserves. During the past year I established the first six statutory nature reserves in the State and I will be adding to that number in the current year. While difficulties can arise from divergent interests where sensitive and unique wildlife sites are concerned, I hope that these can be overcome by goodwill all round and an understanding of my Department's role in regard to this important sector of the national heritage.

Much of the expenditure under subhead H in 1981 will be concerned with research, an essential element of the wildlife conservation programme. The research work includes surveys of woodland and wetland, fauna and flora and ecological studies of a number of important species of fauna, for example the fox, peregrine falcon, Greenland white-fronted goose and woodland birds. Grants will be made available to outside bodies engaged in practical conservation projects either on their own initiative or at the behest of my Department.

The Wildlife Advisory Council, which was established in 1978, continued to provide a flow of constructive advice to my Department and I am happy to acknowledge the dedication shown and the valuable assistance given by the members of the council during the past year. The council's term of office recently expired but, as a mark of my appreciation of their good work over the past three years, I have invited all the existing members to serve for a second term.

Public information and education is a very important aspect of wildlife conservation and my Department supplies a variety of information leaflets and booklets on wildlife subjects aimed at encouraging greater respect for wild fauna and flora and concern for their habitats. Recent additions to the range of available material include an attractive poster on the country code and a revised, indexed edition of Wildlife and the Law which is a practical guide to the Wildlife Act, 1976.

My Department is also playing its part in wildlife conservation matters at international level — particularly in the context of EEC and Council of Europe activities. A wide-ranging EEC Directive on bird conservation, adopted in 1979, will come into operation shortly and I am glad to say that our existing wildlife legislation will be adequate for its implementation. The question of the ratification by Ireland of a number of international conventions — the Ramsar, Washington, Berne and Bonn Conventions — dealing with different facets of wildlife conservation, is also being actively pursued.

Under subhead I — Agency Advisory and Special Services — the amount of £15,000 being provided this year is intended mainly to meet the expenses of the Wildlife Advisory Council, to whose activities I have already paid tribute. The reduction in the overall provision under the subhead is explained by the fact that only a token amount is included for the funding of research on timber technology by the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards in the current year. During the past decade the aggregate funds allocated by my Department for the purpose of this exercise have amounted to almost £1 million. While there is no question of underestimating the importance of, or abandoning, the work, it was considered, having regard to the overall constraints in the allocation of available funds, that to devote further substantial funds to this particular work this year would not be justifiable. However, I can assure the House that the situation is being kept under review and, in this connection, the inclusion in the Estimate of a token provision would facilitate an adjustment should such a course be warranted later in the year. I should perhaps add that, aside from the timber technology aspect, the ongoing silvicultural research programme undertaken by the Forest and Wildlife Service is being fully maintained.

As Deputies will see, the vast bulk of subhead J — Appropriations in Aid — £6,599,600 — which relates to income accruing to the forest and wildlife service during the year — is accounted for by sales of timber. In present market circumstances, the immediate opportunities for increasing revenue from timber sales are limited and subhead J inevitably reflects this temporarily unsatisfactory situation.

In so far as pulpwood is concerned, the domestic market is still depressed and some temporary measures, including sale of raw material for export, must be tolerated in the interests of generating income, maintaining employment and ensuring continuity of trained harvesting personnel. I am, however, confident that the maintenance of the existing outlet at Scariff and the advent of the new industry at Clonmel, to which I have already referred, will provide a firm basis for the development of a steady and sound market for smaller forest produce in the future.

As regards sawlog, current prices — which are largely governed by the level of activity in the building industry — are about 25 per cent lower than in the early part of last year. However, in anticipation of a stronger market, I hope to increase substantially the volume of sawlog material available for sale this year but, in the light of very strong competition from imported timber, the anticipated increased sales of homegrown timber may not produce additional income to the extent that would normally be expected. In so far as transmission poles are concerned the level of sales remains fairly constant and I am glad to say that both the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and the ESB are purchasing all the suitable homegrown material we can provide.

While we are facing temporary problems in the area of wood sales, there is no doubt that this is a temporary feature. Wood continues to be a scarce resource in the European Economic Community, and indeed elsewhere in the world, and there is no doubt that, as the present worldwide recession eases, our confidence in our forest policy of continuing to produce this important and versatile renewable resource will be fully justified.

I trust that this detailed up-to-date presentation of the Fisheries and Forestry Estimates, including the Supplementary Estimate for Forestry, will have given the House a good overall picture of the various activities of my Department, the two sides of which have much in common. In pure economic terms, they are jointly concerned with the development, harvesting and processing of natural resources, fish and wood respectively. Notwithstanding their biological differences, these resources represent not only a worthwhile source of employment but also considerable opportunities in the sphere of import substitution potential. From the social standpoint, the two Votes involve activities which generate wide-ranging benefits of an environmental, recreational and educational nature. My Department as a unit will spare no effort, within the resources available to it, to ensure that these very valuable resources continue to be exploited for the national benefit.

I commend both Estimates to the House and look farward to an interesting debate.

I must compliment the Minister on the way he has read his speech. It is one of the best read speeches I have ever heard come before this House. There is nothing new in the speech at all since last year. I would like to start with three points that the Minister mentioned. Firstly, he said that he does not accept that the fishing industry is in a crisis situation as suggested in some quarters. In a few minutes I would like to deal specifically with the state of the fishing industry in this country. Secondly, when the Minister was talking about the seizure or repossession of boats — he called it the resumption of fishing vessels — by BIM, I thought that some very smart work had been written into this speech to try to cod the people of this House about the present position as far as the fishing industry is concerned. When the Minister was dealing with the amounts of salmon he did not quote the figure caught in 1980. He did not even quote the figure caught in 1979. He quoted the figure of 1,180 tons caught in 1978 less 9 per cent for 1979 and less 16 per cent for 1980. It seems to be a most peculiar way to state the amount of salmon caught in this country in 1980.

I have never heard such waffle from anybody as has come out of the debate here on Fisheries and Forestry this morning. Anybody could have written that speech two years ago or last year. I am beginning to wonder if the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry, whom personally I respect, is really concerned about the fishing industry at present. Does he realise that the fishing industry is on the verge of bankruptcy? For him to state here that he does not say to the fishermen that the industry is in a crisis indicates that something is completely wrong. Does he or do his Department know of the terrible state the fishing industry is in at present? Who was it who once said that Nero fiddles while Rome burns? I am not stating that the fishing industry is burning, but I am stating that at present it is on the verge of bankruptcy.

This time last year I had the pleasure of speaking in this debate and I also had the pleasure of complimenting the Minister on his new position as Minister of Fisheries and Forestry. I stated then that any co-operation we on this side of the House could give him on behalf of the fishing industry we would certainly give him. Now, nearly 18 months since he has taken up this post as Minister for Fisheries and Forestry, I would like him in his reply to point to one thing he has done on behalf of the fishing industry that was not planned 18 months ago, apart from taking over the forestry fair in Kildare. I would like him to point to one new directive that he has made on behalf of the Department of Fisheries and Forestry in the last 18 months.

Like a lot of other people in this country, I have been most disappointed at the shilly-shallying that has gone on at home and abroad from the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry on behalf of Irish fishermen, and I do not say things like that lightly. I would not call it a pleasure, but I went to meet fishermen recently with my fellow-Deputy from my constituency. Before that I had the pleasure of meeting other fishermen around the coast. The facts and figures we heard came not just from the fishermens organisations, whom we would expect to speak out solely on behalf of the fishermen, but also from personal friends of ours in the fishing industry, who are not going to try to cod us or tell us lies. These statistics are depressing. From speaking with these people personally, I am convinced that, unless something is done quickly on behalf of the Irish fishing industry, at least one-third of our boats will be tied up by the end of this summer. I hope that when the Minister is replying he can tell this House that he is aware now of the situation, even though he was not up to this, and that he will look into the figures to find out why these fishermen are on the verge of bankruptcy at present. We have met also the different fishing organisations and, like the fishermen, they are very concerned at the present state of the industry. Some people would go so far as to state that in the last 30 years the fishing industry has never been in such dire straits. It is unbelievable, coming into this House this morning, to hear the waffle that the Minister has gone on with regarding the fishing industry. He had not mentioned one idea concerning how he proposes to take the Irish fishermen out of the predicament they are in at present.

As Opposition spokesman on Fisheries at this time, I would like to explain what I feel is wrong with the industry and how in the short term that could be dealt with. I hope the Minister will take note and that in his reply he can promise that some immediate action will be taken on behalf of the fishermen. Costs have risen so fast over the last three years, particularly that of diesel, that the fishermen find now that they are not able even to break even. On the other side of the coin, fish prices have tumbled, particularly with reference to third countries importing fish into the EEC. An interesting fact is that four years ago fishermen were receiving a bigger price for their fish than they are receiving at present. The price of diesel over the last four years has risen from about 30p a gallon to 93p a gallon, when at the same time the cost of fish in England and in the EEC countries has dropped, it is estimated that fishermen get about 18 per cent of the price of the fish eventually sold in the retail market. There seems to be a big gap between what the fishermen are getting, what the processers are making and what the retailers are marking up as profit in the shops.

Leaving all that aside, there are maybe three ways in which the fishermen can be helped at present. Make no mistake about it, unless something is done for the fishing industry within the next three or four months, these men will have to tie up their boats and will not be able to go out fishing any more because of the high price of diesel. It is estimated that 50 per cent of the expenditure on fishing boats at present is in respect of diesel. Even with a 65 hp boat it is estimated that for the six people to earn even £100 a week they would have to take in £3,300 worth of fish catches. Something has to be done. If we go back we will find probably that the fault lies with the negotiations in the EEC. There is no point in the Minister in his reply saying, as he says in his speech, that things cannot be done in this country without the OK from Brussels.

I have a few little things which I would like to quote. The European Parliament Working Documents 1980-81 on page 40 and onwards states that the German Government give subsidies to the German fishing fleet, the French Government give fuel subsidies, maintenance costs and interest rate relief to their fleet, the British Government have given massive subsidies to their fleet — and I am not talking about the EEC, I am talking about direct British aid and I will come back to it in a minute — and the Danish Government have put a moratorium on repayments for their boats. I am quoting that because the usual thing we hear from the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry is that he has not the power to introduce some lifeline for the Irish fishermen. That is proof of the different subsidies that different states are giving their own fishermen, while at the same time over the last four years not one bob has been pumped in by the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry for the fishermen here. The Fishing News of 30 February 1981 states that the British fishermen are about to demand £30 million in direct financial aid from their own British Government. In 1980 the British fleet received £14.1 million in aid for the fishing industry on 29 September. That depended on the size of boats. Each boat was given a cash payment to tide it over the recession which is affecting the fishing fleets in all the nations of the EEC at present. For example, a 75-80 ft. boat last September got a grant of £9,450. A boat of 45-56 ft. received £1,350, and so on. The point is that the English fishermen have been looked after by the British Government. The Danish fishermen have been looked after by the Danish Government, German fishermen are looked after by the Germans, and the French fishermen by the French, but the Irish fishermen are let go to the wall.

Fishing is one of the industries we should be developing in this country, instead of having me standing up here today stating that, sadly, this industry is on the verge of bankruptcy. It is on its knees, and something must be done about it by the present administration. I suppose the Minister is going to ask me what can be done. I suppose he is going to ask me where the two pennies, the two widow's mites that were given to the fishermen in the last budget, have gone. As I understood it, the Taoiseach and the Minister last November agreed that the entire excise duty would be deducted in the budget of 1981. Yet the Minister for Finance, when he was telling us about the tremendous support he was giving to Irish fishermen, in fact was giving them a 2p rebate on their excise duty to alleviate the cost of diesel, which he knew was crippling the industry. The Minister for Finance and the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry did not tell us that the following week we would have another increase of 9p a gallon on diesel. That was in the beginning of February. The Minister for Finance did not tell us that before the end of March the fishermen would receive another shock, another 9p a gallon, bringing the cost of diesel now up to 93p a gallon, the highest price of diesel anywhere in Europe at present as far as the fishermen are concerned.

Does the Minister for Forestry and Fisheries realise that the French fishermen are paying only 50p a gallon for diesel? The Germans are paying something similar and even our neighbours in England have to pay only 60p a gallon for their diesel? Yet, our Irish fishermen are being crippled by being asked to pay 93p a gallon. I am not saying that this is the way out of the present industrial crisis, but I suggest that the entire extra 5p which the Revenue Commissioners get from excise on diesel oil should now be removed, as a first step towards alleviating the financial position of the fishermen. I have said many times to our fishermen around the coast that, if we do not expand our fishing industry now and cannot come up with our quota catches, we will never get increased quotas in future years from the EEC. Our fishing industry must be kept afloat by immediate assistance from the Fianna Fáil administration.

I sometimes wonder if the Minister is the "hind tit man" for the Minister for Agriculture. Agriculture seems to be getting all the subsidies — the cattle headage grants and an extra £20 a week subsidy for extra workers taken on. The fishermen, on the other hand, do not even get State insurance at present. I have been talking about diesel oil, but I could also talk about — not the word the Minister used, not a moratorium, but delayed repayments on some boats, particularly in regard to the fishermen who have found themselves behind in their repayments through no fault of their own.

I will be dealing later on with the position regarding the Celtic Sea. But I say now that fishermen, on the south-east coast particularly, who find themselves behind in their repayments are in that position because the Celtic Sea was completely closed to them. A very lenient view should be taken regarding their repayments and some extra incentive should be devised, such as a delayed repayment scheme to the BIM. Special consideration — I emphasise the word "special"— must be given to any fisherman who has fallen by the wayside, not through any fault of his but through the fault of the EEC, the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry and Fianna Fáil because of their negligence in handling this industry in the last four years. In the short-term and the long-term, a price support scheme is needed now for the fishing industry.

In the last couple of weeks my fellow countyman, who will be talking in a similar vein, and I have met the different fishing interests in Donegal, particularly the Killybegs Fishermen's Association. we have sat down and worked out, the Minister and his officials will be glad to hear, some solution which would be acceptable to the Irish fishermen at no great cost. This solution is called a price support scheme for fish. I do not want the Minister, when replying, to say that this cannot be done without getting sanction from the EEC. It has been done in Britain in the last number of years and there has not been a murmur about it from the EEC. The reason for this is that the British Minister for Fisheries is concerned about their fishing industry. He is concerned about the situation of the boats and about the price of fish. He has introduced a price support scheme away and above the compensatory price being paid at present by the EEC.

How many people realise that, if a fishermen brings a box of mackerel into a port but cannot sell his mackerel, he is given 2½p a lb. of a compensatory EEC allowance? I wonder how many people realise that in 1980 there were 10,200 tons of fish withdrawn from the Irish market because there was no price for it and fishermen had to take up the pittance of 2½ pence by the EEC. That was for mackerel. One does not have to be an economist — I think the Minister is a scholar — to work out for oneself the fact that that kind of money will not pay anybody for fishing. I do not have to tell you that we meet constituents working on fishing boats who have not received a brass farthing since the beginning of the year because the price of fish has been so bad.

I asked you a question last week which was answered for you by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. The question related to the price of fish in the EEC and the compensatory price for whiting. The answer I got from Deputy Hussey — I am sure you saw the script — was that you were quite satisfied and the Irish fishermen were quite satisfied with the new arrangements made in Brussels and you were congratulated on them.

I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy but he must address the Chair.

Thank you. The Minister seems to be satisfied with the increase we are getting from the EEC. He seems to be satisfied with whiting falling from £8 to £6 a box. He seems to be satisfied that whiting at six pence a lb. was a fair price to offer Irish fishermen in 1981 to enable those fishermen to make a livelihood.

With regard to price support which will cost no more than about £5 million, and the possibility is it will not cost that at all like the intervention beef, there is a floor economic price which leads fishermen to believe that they will at least break even over the 12 months. If we got the same allowance for diesel that the French are getting that would be fine but we must be realistic. I hope the Minister will be able to tell us that the fishing industry will get a shot in the arm to prevent it going to the wall. Surely it can be treated in the same way in the EEC as the English and the other countries are. The kind of support scheme I am talking about need not be that great at all. For mackerel there should be an increase of £1.69 a box to give the fishermen a minimum price of £5 a box or five pence a 1b. That is not too much to expect. That would be better than having the Minister for Social Welfare paying these fishermen the dole. Is it too much to expect whiting fishermen to be given a guaranteed price of £10 a box or 10 pence a 1b. If you do not do something like this we will be back here week after week on the Adjournment, on Supplementary Estimates and at Question Time telling you that in the month of March 1981 you were warned that the fishing industry was on the verge of bankruptcy.

Again I must ask the Deputy to speak through the Chair and use the third person. He is addressing the Minister across the floor of the House.

He needs to be addressed. The country is on the verge of bankruptcy as well as the fishing industry.

The Deputy will speak through the Chair now and use only the third person.

Address your abuse to the Chair.

When he uses "you" that is what he is doing and the Chair has no responsibility for fish at all.

I hope I have made my point loud and clear. Would the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry consider the state the industry is in? The Minister said we were aware of the lack of markets here and the lack of proper marketing. I quite agree. I have been giving the short-term view. A sum of £3 million to £5 million is required to rescue the industry.

I am glad the Minister has sanctioned a number of new processing firms. The processing industry will have to be developed. I gave a figure of 18 per cent as the amount estimated that the fishermen actually catch of the entire fish sold. Our fishermen are getting about £17 a box for cod and that is transshipped to England where the middle man gets £37 a box. He makes £20 profit. We will have to process as much fish as possible. The Minister said that there are 1,600 people employed in the processing industry. In Bremerhaven there are 11,000 employed. In Killybegs, with an annual turnover of £5 million, only 500 people are employed. This is a part of the industry that could and should be developed. It has a tremendous employment potential. After that comes the important question of marketing. We have only one marketing man abroad. I asked a question about this and I was told the number of marketing people BIM had abroad. In actual fact we have one man in Paris on behalf of BIM, the Irish fishermen and the Department. It is high time we treated the industry as a business and a profitable business at that.

I should like to congratulate Dr. Meaney on his appointment as CEO of BIM. The industry has lost a friend in Mr. Brendan O'Kelly but I hope Dr. Meaney will be a new broom that will sweep clean. I hope we shall see many new ideas from the new man. He has the right qualifications for developing the fishing industry. Something radical must be done quickly about fish marketing. We should set up a system like Bord Bainne or Córas Tráchtála. Córas Tráchtála offices could take a fishing representative in the countries where they operate to promote Irish processed fish. It could be pre-packed in Ireland and sold abroad. When the Minister spoke of the increased fishing industry it reminded me of a firm increasing its turnover so quickly that in the following couple of months the firm is in bankruptcy because they created too much too soon. It is nice to see the total fish catch increasing but unless we can process it, market it and get the maximum price for it a great deal of money will be lost to Ireland.

I understand the Minister is off to Brussels tomorrow to meet his European counterparts. I understand there has been a row between Britain and Germany in the EEC discussions that have taken place and will be continuing tomorrow. We know that the reasons for the row is that Germany wants to be allowed to fish for 6,000 tonnes of cod in Canadian waters. Perhaps the figure is not exact but it is near enough. In return, the Canadians would be allowed to export into the EEC 30 tonnes. The cost of diesel in this country is 93p per gallon while the cost in Canada is 25p per gallon but because of the different size of the gallon in Canada which is only five-eights of our gallon the price works out at 40p per gallon.

It is worth remembering that the reference price for fish coming into third countries has to be increased substantially because most other countries, particularly the Canadians, the Norwegians and the Icelanders are fishing much more cheaply than Irish fishermen. With lower basic costs the end product cannot be produced at the same price. I hope when the Minister is in Brussels tomorrow he will see that whatever tonnage of fish — I would hope none but being a realist I know he will probably have to agree on some figure — that is permitted to be imported is kept as low as possible. The secret is to get the reference price up above the support price that I mentioned earlier. It comes back to simple arithmetic.

The Minister has been remarkably quiet. He is not always so quiet here. Perhaps he has not the right PRO working for him. He has been very quiet when he has gone to Brussels to talk for Irish fishermen. All I heard him say was that he thinks that a satisfactory solution will be worked out and that we shall be seeking exclusive zones for Irish fishermen. To me that means exclusive zones and I think we — and I mean all of us — cannot accept anything less than a complete ban on foreign vessels inside a 12 mile zone. The Minister will have the backing of this side of the House if he seeks that. Under Article 2 of our Constitution the Irish people have the right to the territorial seas off our coast. You are a great man at quoting constitutions at times. You should be able to get advice. You cannot accept anything less than a 12 mile zone. You, as the Irish Minister——

We are back to the chat across the floor of the House. That will not do. The Deputy must address the Chair and must speak in the third person.

The Chair also represents a fishing constituency and will agree that just as important as our 12 mile exclusive zone is that the Minister for Fisheries should have the sole right to allow Irish fishermen to fish in that 12 mile zone and specify the amount of fish they may catch and see that no other boat, no matter from where it comes, will be allowed inside that zone unless they come in to unload their cargoes at the processing factories we propose to set up. One of those things is as important as the other. In no way can we accept anything less.

I realise that the Minister will be allowed to open the Celtic Sea and we shall be allowed to fish 100 tonnes of herring——

Multiply it by 10 — 1,000 tonnes.

I am sorry, I meant to say 1,000. That herring may only be fished by boats of 50 feet length. Does this mean that no outside boat, no boat from the west coast of England or the Isle of Man will be allowed to fish herring in the Celtic Sea? Secondly, is the Minister satisfied — I am not — that the 50 feet should not be increased to 85 feet for these boats.? When talking about the Celtic Sea I hope we are also talking about a famous zone known as 7A off Donegal; I hope that will be open for the Donegal Fishermen. I always speak for the two zones together. If we opened these areas to all the fishing boats in the Community it would only be a matter of a very short time before the herring grounds would be shut again due to over-fishing. Quotas were introduced for EEC member states but none of them has worked. We must insist again that our 12 mile zone will be operative and that the Celtic Sea will be fished by Irishmen and by no one else.

The Minister should look into the situation in regard to flags of convenience. Some Dutch fishermen are now registering in Belgium so that they can take up the Belgain quota because the Belgians are not fishing. Guernsey boats are being registered in England and they can go back to Guernsey where they do not have to pay tax on their fishing operations. It gives them an unfair advantage. This will have to be tightened up. The Spanish could register in England if they were allowed. They can certainly register in Belgium, and probably in Ireland under the Irish flag. Then they would be given part of the Irish quota.

For instance, one of the finest fish processing factories in these islands has been established in Castletownbere and is being supplied by three Spanish boats. Simply because they have a factory in County Cork they are allowed to fish within our 12-mile zone. The Minister must get a guarantee that more Spanish boats will not be allowed to fish in Irish waters, because if the owners of this factory put in a new application we could have a further 20 Spanish boats fishing in our waters.

Last week, I addressed a question to the Minister, who was not here, about a rumour that interest rates on fishermen's loans for new boats are to be increased from 8 per cent to 14 per cent. I hope the Minister, when he is replying to the debate, will deny this rumour. The answer I got from the poor Minister of State amounted to nil. He did not know, and I could not expect him to know. The Minister knows and I hope he will scotch that rumour.

Our deep sea fishing industry is on the verge of bankruptcy and it will go to the wall unless something is done immediately. The Minister can expect all the ammunition we have in the Opposition to be used to make him look after our fishermen.

Do not be frightening us like that.

I am not trying to frighten anybody. Besides, the Minister has enough big guns in Kildare. He is the representative of Irish fishermen and he does not seem to give a damn about how much take home pay our fishermen have. The Minister can interrupt all he likes——

He cannot because it is not in order.

The Minister spoke about inland fisheries and referred to the Bill on this subject which was debated in 1979 and passed last April. The Minister spoke about the new Central Fisheries Board and the district boards. This is not anything new — it is all in the Act.

In that Act there is provision for a 10 per cent salmon levy. When we were on the Committee Stage of that Bill I asked the Minister how much he expected the levy to yield, and his answer was £450,000 annually. At Question Time last week I found that the actual yield has been only £153,000, only a third of the yield estimated. Something has gone terribly wrong. It has also transpired that the people on the Innishowen side and on the other side of the Foyle do not pay the levy because they say it is unconstitutional. We all know that salmon is being imported, and I understand that the levy is not imposed on that. Therefore, the only people who are paying this salmon levy are the poor devils fishing in the west and the north-west. The final nail in the fishermen's coffin is that this levy was supposed to finance the restocking of our rivers. Can the Minister tell us what new restocking has taken place in the year since the Bill was passed, how many smolts have been put into the rivers in that time? I do not think the revenue from the levy has been spent in that way. I suggest that, if the levy is not collected and administered in an equitable way, it should be abolished forthwith.

I understand that intensively reared salmon are being sold on the London market in greater numbers and at cheaper prices than the royal salmon caught around our coasts. The Norwegians catch seven times more intensively reared salmon than we do of royal salmon. There does not seem to have been any directive from the Minister in regard to the potential for mariculture or aquaculture or intensive salmon rearing. A multinational undertaking are to set up a big operation in Castletownbere. Apparently people must begin to do things themselves, because BIM, whose job it is, do not seem to be educating the public in this regard. We are told that one of the BIM's functions is developing and marketing. They should be explaining to the people the potential of aquaculture and mariculture. I understand that their restocking job has come to an end and I hope that Dr. Meaney will see the importance of these developments.

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle will be glad to hear that I visited Wexford recently. There is a mussel farm down there and their main worry — and again the Minister will have to take this up in Brussels — is that there seems to be no reference price for mussels coming in to the EEC from the Third countries. There must be some kind of safety valve for an enterprise like this that is developing so well but is being undercut by Korean mussels coming all the way from Korea to the EEC because their basic costs are cheaper. A reference price must be introduced not just for mussels but for every type of fish here.

In Mulroy Bay there are very encouraging signs of tremendous potential for scallops. I would like to congratulate the Department on organising a seminar which was held to explain to the local people and also to the press and the entire people of Donegal so that they realise that in Mulroy Bay there is a type of development that can and should be expanded. If this is done properly there is a lot of revenue to be gained therefrom. Mulroy Bay is unique here because the water does not go in and out as fast as it does in most other bays.

The one cause of concern that everybody at that seminar had was that the Department have issued a licence to the ESB to allow them to have 20 cages for intensive salmon farming in Mulroy Bay. The people who know most, the people in the research laboratories have a twofold fear. The first is that it is not proven that the droppings from the salmon are not injurious to shellfish and they think the opposite could be the case. In the reports it is shown that within a 35 foot radius of these cages no shell fish will live because of the effluent. The second fear is that this effluent, in time, is part of the cause of this terrible disease known as Red Tide and that the more intensive the salmon farming the greater the chance of Red Tide. We do not mind the 20 cages that have already been erected. But we would certainly not like to see any more licences given for fish farming in Mulroy Bay, because it is a unique bay and it should be developed as a shellfish bay. There are plenty of other bays suitable for trout and salmon rearing, but Mulroy Bay is the only one suitable for scallop farming. I hope that the Department and the Minister will take this into consideration because, in the long term, we could be killing the goose that lays the golden egg.

The Minister did not mention the position regarding the St. George's Bay oyster beds in Clarinbridge. Again, I hope that when he is replying he will state his position regarding St. George's Bay. The Minister knows that, under the Bill he put through the House last year with our approval, one of the sections provided that the central board had the right to acquire fishery rights here when they came up for sale. I hope that the Minister will clarify the position with regard to St. George's Bay in his reply.

I could deal with fisheries for another two hours because I have so much to say about it, but in the time that is left to me I have to deal with forestry. Again I would like to emphasise that whoever the Minister is getting his information from in regard to fisheries does not seem to know anything about it. The Minister states that he does not accept that the industry is in a crisis situation as suggested in some quarters. In all quarters, certainly in the Minister's Department, certainly in BIM, it was admitted months ago that the fishing industry is in dire straits; it is on the verge of bankruptcy. I hope that, when the Minister is replying he will give the fishermen some indication that he is concerned about the fishing industry. He is the Minister for Fisheries and, as such, he should be concerned about the industry, about the livelihoods of the fishermen. I hope that he can give the House a guarantee that something will be done immediately to safeguard livelihoods, to safeguard the industry and to ensure that in this crisis time the Government will inject money into the fishing industry as other countries have done off their own bat without the EEC.

I now turn to forestry. As far as forestry is concerned, I would like to deal with it in two parts. It is worth noting that in regard to the fishing industry we are talking about an Estimate of just £20 million, whereas the Estimate for Forestry is £30 million. Very few people realise that the forestry side of the Minister's Department is half as big again, as far as the Estimates are concerned, as the fishery side. Before the Minister started to speak certain Deputies on this side of the House had some reservations about this new company that is being set up in Scariff. The position is that we have all been very concerned over the last couple of years about our forestry factories, if I may call them such. For example, we have seen Munster Chipboard going into receivership; then we saw Scariff Chipboard going into receivership. I understand the Department then got a firm of consultants, Arthur Little and Company, to look into the industry to see what best should be done in the long term.

I agree 100 per cent with this. I realise that there is tremendous potential in the forestry industry here. It will probably increase our work force in the next seven or eight years by about 4,000 if it is handled properly and I will deal with that in a few minutes. But I cannot understand why we have got into such a complicated set-up here of share capital, preference shares, loans to capital and capital grants. It would take a qualified accountant an hour to study the two pages which I have been endeavouring to study in the last few minutes to try to sort out this jigsaw puzzle. In the last 50 years we have invested in the forestry industry. We have seen the trees growing and we have seen them now, over the last couple of years, coming to maturity. I hope that the State will take a major interest in the large processing firms that are to come here. Otherwise it will be like having an oilwell off the Porcupine Bank and the State just handing it over to multinational companies and giving them grants for exploring it.

I would like to see the State taking a major stake in forestry enterprises as far as processing and marketing are concerned. In the Department we have probably the best experts available in relation to forestry. I am convinced of this. The problem starts at the forest gate. We have a policy regarding the forest gate which none of us can criticise except for the fact that we are only planting about 16,000 acres at present. We should be planting about 25,000 acres. What happens when these trees leave the forest gate? Private individuals buy and collect them and sometimes they ship them abroad. I would like to see this type of development taking place, whereby the Department of Fisheries and Forestry would set up a semi-State body to deal with the processing and marketing of timber or to set aside a specialised section in the Department, completely separate from the growing end.

I would like to see proper processing plants erected and developed on a profitable basis here. I am afraid the State seems to be giving away everything. For example, the State has given a grant of £293,000, it has given a loan of £466,000. It has taken out ordinary share capital of £334,000 and preference share capital of £200,000. It is allowing this company to take timber from the forest free of charge. I realise, as the Minister realises, the problem that we have with thinnings, which have to be taken out, otherwise the other trees will not grow to maturity. I do not think that anybody can seriously suggest that a factory, unless it is a State factory, run by private individuals, should be given free timber. When the Minister is replying, I should like him to state the exact share that the State is going to take in this new industry. I would also like to know exactly the amount of money that the private individuals are contributing in hard cash. There is a difference between putting up money and putting in hard cash. I want to see exactly the share that the State is going to hold and the share which private individuals are going to hold.

Trees have been grown here for the past 50 years. It does not matter which Government were in power, they all invested in trees. Therefore, it is fundamentally, psychologically wrong to start thinking now of handing over the profitable end of the business to private enterprise. I hope, as far as policy is concerned, that there is not going to be a major difference between the Minister and this side of the House. I think it should be a State enterprise advised by the experts from the private side. They are paying their fair share and are not being given buckshee money as has been done so often in the past. We are not talking about a microchip industry. We are talking about native timber. I want questions answered and even though we passed the Supplementary Estimate for Forestry without a vote, we might have to have a vote in the long run unless we get a definate commitment from the Minister that the State is going to take a major share in the forest enterprise and in any other forest processing firm which is set up.

I heard, on very good authority, that the IDA had secured a very big European processing timber firm to take over Scariff. The IDA put it to the Minister. I understand that the Minister put it to the Government for sanction that this European firm would reopen Scariff. The Government decided that the firm of Mclnerney would be given the option rather than the European firm. I honestly feel that when a processing timber industry is set up here, the State should have a major share in it. Scariff in Minister did make a profit and in a few year's time this is going to be a most profitable enterprise. I am totally convinced that the forestry industry is one of the most under-developed at present. We can thank our ancestors for having the foresight to develop this industry.

People talk about oil imports. How many people realise that timber is our second biggest import. Over 80 per cent of the timber we use is being imported. It is being imported from Finland, Russia and Canada, countries which are outside the EEC. A definite policy is needed now for the forestry industry. It is estimated that in 1990, it will be our most important industry if it is properly developed. If that is done we will be an exporting country in the EEC within nine years. There is tremendous potential in the forestry industry if it is developed properly; and, unless we get a definite commitment from the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry on this now we will have no hesitation in putting the Estimate to a vote. I come from private enterprise myself but from this angle I see no reason why, as in the case of Bord na Móna, some section could not set up in the Department of Forestry.

The Minister mentioned the position regarding the surveying of biomass. Much as he admires research, it is hard to understand how the Department of Fisheries and Forestry have axed the IIRS £.5 million commitment and that research is not taking place in that body at present. Now is the time when, instead of axing that £.5 million, it should be increased. I understand that the Department are working on a project whereby willow trees can be planted in soft, rushy fields and every five years or so a crop cut down to about a foot above the ground. It will not even have to be re-planted. It will be chopped down and can be made into some form of energy. This type of research should be developed more and more and these people should be given the money for this purpose. In the long term the bogs and rushy fields, particularly in Leitrim and the north-west, which are not being utilised could be used for this. The small farmers could make far more money if the State, even at this time, thought of taking some kind of share in their land and planting this type of tree crop over a period. Firstly, the farmers would be better off; secondly, the State would be better off; and, thirdly, we would be saving so much money when it comes to the import of energy. That is something very small but I am really disappointed that the Department have cut this £5 million from forestry.

There is much potential in the timber industry at present. Bord na Móna manufacture briquettes. There is nothing to prevent a similar type of briquette being made from wood chip. This would be another saving in energy and research should be developing on this all the time. Also there should be some formula whereby processors would be able to dry their timber a lot faster than at present in their drying sheds. We have been importing 84 per cent of our timber and this has included dried timber. Now is the time to do the research so that in four or five years we may hope to talk to each other across this floor and say that these things are coming on stream. With the right directive any Minister for Fisheries and Forestry can make a name for himself over the next couple of years.

I question the amount of money we are spending on private planting at present. I believe that the State has done a marvellous job in forestry. I doubt whether the private planting project, even though at present one can get £105 an acre grant in respect of it, is so successful. The Minister should give thought to changing that scheme and encouraging his Department to take a share basis in lands and develop them. Over a five-or ten-year period, the farmers would be better off. Even though there may be one, two or ten good private estates, most of the private forest schemes have not really worked. Some of the banks and multinationals are now starting to look at the possibility of tree-rearing. It is interesting to know that it costs about £200 an acre to plant trees in this country and at today's value on £200 in 14 years' time the profit would be £4,355 for the same acreage, and we have to allow for the time involved. We should be encouraging more and more people to plant forests.

The sawmill industry is in a depressed state at present and the IDA have given substantial grants over the last 12 months to that industry. Here is an industry where the sky is the limit as far as potential is concerned. We are not bugged by fire being a hazard in the forests as it is in other countries. We have a damp climate here which is very suitable for growing trees, and fire is a minimal risk in Ireland compared with some other countries. I am concerned that we have bought only 16,000 acres of land last year to develop forestry. Any Minister must aim for 25,000 acres a year, because this is an on-going thing. So many acres of land are going to waste in this country that the Minister should be taking over and developing. He did say in his speech that more money is available in 1981 for the purchase of this type of land, but he did not say that the money was not taken up in 1980 and that this land was not bought in 1980 and should have been bought then. I would like to see this target increased, and I am not being unrealistic when its potential is considered. In the long term the only way that it can be increased is for us to buy as much land suitable for forestry as is available to be bought and utilised. Any Minister who stands up in this House to state that we have bought only 16,000 acres of forestry land in 1980 is not doing the State justice.

In regard to the banks and multinationals, I understand that four of them have bought land in the last month. Could some scheme be worked out whereby their investment would be tax free? It is accepted generally that if you are planting for a long period you do not get profit until the trees are cut. We should give them a tax incentive, over a ten-year period perhaps, that would be a guarantee that if the timber is growing for longer than a ten-year period they would not have to pay any tax on their eventual profit. The State should increase its acreage and private individuals should increase their acreage also.

I thank you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, for giving me the opportunity to speak this morning. Although the fishing industry is in a state of bankruptcy, the forestry industry offers tremendous potential. I am disappointed that we have had no new ideas on the forestry industry from the Minister. I would have expected him to be briefed on the potential of this industry, this little gold mine we could have if it were developed properly. I hope he will be able to guarantee to the House that the line the Government are taking on processing and marketing is a State line, and that the State will take a high interest in the industry. I hope he can guarantee that we are not throwing money into another Scariff and that in another three or four years' time we will not be faced with another factory on the verge of bankruptcy. Management, knowledge and expertise are needed in the forestry industry today.

Having regard to the appalling conditions in the fishing industry today we were entitled to expect some positive indication of help from the Minister. We looked forward to this Estimate for that specific purpose. Having listened to the Minister very carefully, one must conclude that the introduction of this Estimate is not merely a non-event, but essentially a sad event. It gives no gleam of hope to the many thousands of people engaged in the fishing industry that the past number of years of great privation and acute hardship are nearly ended.

The Minister has failed signally to grapple effectively with the issues involved. In his statement he merely skimmed over the issues, and he patently ignored the basic problems which are there for all to see. Having regard to the plight of the industry as we know it, I assert that the Minister has treated this House and the industry with contempt. His contribution in respect of fisheries in particular was very brief on this occasion. It was a weak and puerile effort, similar to the lamentable role he has played in the defence of this industry in Brussels over the past number of years.

We were entitled to look to this Estimate for some indication from the Minister that at last he would take steps to stem the drift towards penury and bankruptcy in this industry. His approach has been a shameful evasion of responsibility in this area. Realising the serious situation which has beset the industry for so long, certainly since Fianna Fáil came back into power, it is extremely difficult to understand why we have had this puerile approach in this House today.

The Minister said he did not accept that the industry is in a crisis situation. That statement will cause widespread indignation and anger amongst all the people directly involved. Is there anyone who is even remotely associated with the fishing industry who would agree with that statement? Is there any boat owner or fisherman who would agree with that statement? Surely the evidence is there for all to see. The Minister's statement that there is no crisis flies in the face of the truth and the facts. The protestations in recent years, and in more immediate times, by the various fishermen's organisations are proof of that.

Are we to take it that the Minister is deaf and blind and has not heard or seen these people clamouring for admission to his office or besieging the gates of Leinster House? It is a starting statement which will be repudiated by all the leaders of the fishery organisations. I derive no personal satisfaction from saying this, and I do not wish to secure any political kudos for being frank and blunt about the situation. There are no votes for me in respect of fisheries in the constituency I represent. I have an obligation to my party and to the people involved in the industry which we in the Labour Party have always treasured as one of our most wonderful assets.

The fact remains that, over the past four years, the Fianna Fáil Administration have brought nothing but despondency and economic ruin to this industry. The people who reposed their confidence in Fianna Fáil in the last general election, and accepted their glowing promises of a 50-mile exclusive fishing limit and a new era of prosperity, have been sadly disillusioned. I contend that, in the recession we have experienced, all industries have been affected, agriculture, tourism and so on. I do not exaggerate when I say that the fishing industry has suffered most in recent years.

The situation in agriculture is bad, but it is worse so far as fisheries are concerned. No industry has suffered more and none has received so little recognition as has been the case in respect of fisheries. There has been no positive help of any kind to alleviate the situation. Regretfully, this has been confirmed once again by the Minister in glossing over the situation in his statement today. Being the sensible and intelligent man he is, the Minister must know the damage that has been done to the fishing industry in recent years. He must know that the situation is grave, that the plight of our fishermen is lamentable as a result of escalating costs, especially the increases in oil prices, and also because of the drastic fall in the price of fish. Added to these difficulties is the problem of large imports of fish into EEC countries from third countries, a situation that neither the Minister nor the Community have been able to stem. Further, there is the problem created by the restrictions governing fishing, especially herring fishing. All of these factors have brought about a great lowering of the standard of living of our fishermen. If the Minister needs evidence of this situation, he need only advert to the records of BIM which show that increasing numbers of fishermen are finding it impossible to meet their commitments in respect of repayments for boats. Indeed, there is an admission in the Minister's speech that seizures of boats are taking place and will continue to take place as a result of the inability of our fishermen to meet their repayments.

I am somewhat angry that in the light of these facts the Minister has not so much as raised a finger to assist this precious industry and the people involved in it. It is no longer a case of pleading in this House for the advancement of the fishing industry. We are fighting today for the survival of that industry. The 50-mile limit proposal, which many of us regarded as an essential safeguard for the development of the industry, was shamefully abandoned by Fianna Fáil and in particular by the Minister's predecessor. From that moment on the industry drifted downwards, lacking both in confidence and in security. I make no apology for adverting again to the question of the 50-mile limit. That was a fundamental principle of the policy in the Fianna Fáil manifesto and we believed at the time that they were sincere. Many of their members who are now in important positions in Government — and I include in this the Taoiseach — are on record as having said that nothing less than a 50-mile exclusive limit would suffice. They promised to fight determinedly to secure such a limit, but their backsides were hardly warm in their seats in Government when they abandoned that fundamental principle and from then on we made no progress in Europe in regard to fisheries. Despite all the toing and froing in this regard, there has not been any semblance of a worth-while breakthrough of any kind. The Minister has retreated from the principle of a 50-mile exclusive limit to a limit of 12 miles, but he is no nearer a solution to the problem.

Deputy White has pointed out the assistance that has been provided by other countries for their fishing industries in these times of difficulty. Where the Community have proved unable or unwilling to provide positive aid, national governments have gone to the rescue of their fishing industries and have taken positive steps to help those concerned. They have provided worth-while subsidies in respect of fuel oil. The French fishermen have been subsidised for some time to the extent of about ten times what is being offered to our fishermen. They have been made the mean offer of 2p. This represents a calculated insult to our fishermen, who are beset by serious economic problems. In any event, this subsidy will be offset quickly by the substantial increases in the duty on oil products imposed in the budget and by the increases in oil prices that were announced shortly afterwards.

The British Government have no hesitation in assisting their industry and defending their position in Brussels with determination. It is evident to those who watch the scene there that Mrs. Margaret Thatcher has not won for herself the name of the Iron Lady without good reason. We must admire her for the stand she takes in defence of vital national interests such as fisheries. I wish that our Minister showed the same determination. Does the Republic of Ireland, in the context of EEC affairs, count for very little? Are the major decisions, particularly in respect of fishing policy, made by the giants of Europe — Britain, France, Germany — and do we not count for anything in that assembly?

More and more restrictions are being put on the Irish fishing industry by Brussels. There are impositions in respect of tariffs and quotas. Will the Minister tell us of any worth-while concession the fishing industry has obtained since we joined the EEC? I believe this stems from the attitude of Fianna Fáil in negotiating the Treaty of Rome. It is evident to us, as we look back over the records, that the then Fianna Fáil Government placed no importance whatsoever on our fishing industry. The disregard we have to contend with from the bureaucrats in Brussels stems from that. No safeguards were asked for in the negotiations and no assurances were demanded in respect of territorial rights and exclusive limits. Fianna Fáil treated this important industry, as they have always done, as a kind of Cinderella. They invited its exploitation by the major groupings in Europe by ignoring the industry at that time.

The rich asset around our coasts are for exploitation by the British, the Germans, the Spaniards, when they come in, and the rest. We have received no compensatory provisions up to now. That is why I assert that our membership of the EEC, so far as our fishing industry is concerned, has been a hindrance rather than an asset. All the toing and froing of the Minister and his galaxy of civil servants from Dublin to Brussels has not achieved anything. Is there the semblance of a fishing policy? Is there a sign of agreement? There is certainly no sign of a united fishing policy despite years of negotiations. The major powers of Britain. Germany and France dominate the scene and our effective power in this area, as far as the Minister for Fisheries is concerned, is only baby power.

What did the silence of the Labour Party's representative achieve?

There has been complete silence from the Minister.

Deputy Treacy is in possession. The Minister will have the right to reply and Deputy White has already spoken.

The Minister's participation in Brussels seems to be defensive and negative. I hope the Minister can prove, when he is replying, that what I am saying is not true. Our waters seem to be there for the exploitation and use of our so-called partners in Europe. We have lost control over one of our most cherished assets. The fishing industry is in a deplorable state and the EEC are doing nothing to help the situation. In the circumstances, where the EEC has failed to come to agreement and where it is clear it has lost its effectiveness, the Minister and the Government have an obligation to intervene directly and do what is necessary to protect the industry.

The Minister cannot take on the role of Pontius Pilate and say "Sorry, there is nothing I can do, it is all the fault of Brussels". The Irish Government, despite what is agreed in Rome, have the right and the duty to maintain sovereign control over Irish territorial waters and a solemn obligation is imposed on them to safeguard, maintain and preserve our rich heritage. It is not good enough to say that they will not agree in Brussels. They are our waters, it is our industry and it is our duty to protect it. In this context the preservation of our fish stocks is of paramount importance. We have a duty to prevent the rape and the plunder of our fishing areas. The Minister will have to elaborate more fully on what he will do in this situation. If Brussels do not agree to act, the Minister must act.

In relation to the agricultural industry, the farmers presume that the Irish Government are prepared to make up the difference if there is a short-fall in price increases emanating from Brussels. The Minister should think along those lines in this instance. The Minister will have to buttress this industry before irreparable harm is done.

I have referred to a situation where our fishermen are unable to meet their commitments in respect of hire purchase repayments on boats acquired through the aegis of BIM. Is it not a fact that a sizeable number of our fishing fleet are facing bankruptcy, that at least 35 skippers face legal action for repossession of boats acquired through BIM, that some 140 skippers are heavily in arrears amounting to over £1 million and that 76 per cent of all accounts are in arrears averaging about six months?

I pay tribute to BIM for their humane approach to this situation, for their understanding of the problem and their reluctance to harrass, sue or seize boats; but it is clear from the Minister's statement that seizures are taking place, that court proceedings are in train in many cases and that the pressure is on. These fishermen would not be in this sad predicament if they could pay their debts but they are simply not making enough money. They are being paid the prices they were paid in 1976 for their fish. Prices are falling, but inflation is soaring. This is their dilemma and the Minister must bridge the gap. I am pleading for leniency for these men, I am pleading for a moratorium on repayments for boats acquired through BIM until the situation improves.

I would not thank the Minister for such a concession because he knows that these men would pay if it were humanly possible for them to do so. Far from recognising their plight and introducing some relief, it has been suggested that the subsidy on loans for the acquisition of boats through BIM of some 5½ to 6 per cent is about to be abolished and repayments for boats will rise to a frightening extent to perhaps 14 or 15 per cent. If that happens what is left of our fishing fleet will have to be sold. It will be the death blow, a crippling blow that will push average repayments up by as much as £20,000 a year. That is money that is not being earned. Many of these boats and their crews will go out of business, into extinction from which they can never hope to return. Will the Minister make clear his intention of providing positive assistance to our skippers and crews in these circumstances?

The 2 per cent tax relief from customs duty in respect of fuel oil was a calculated insult in these circumstances and it should be increased to a realistic figure. The suggestion of withdrawing the subsidy on fishing boats is mind boggling and I hope it is not true. If it is, it is the end of the Irish fishing fleet. When the Minister ignores the situation to the extent that he says there is no crisis. I trust he will accept from this side of the House that we differ on what the word "crisis" means. I think he will agree we have on our hands a most serious situation. Let us use any word we like, it would be remiss of all of us to close our eyes to a most grave situation.

The Minister in his speech dealt mainly with forestry and, while I am not complaining about that, it must be agreed that the question of fisheries is the more important. However, we are grateful for the information he has given us. On this side of the House we have always said there was tremendous scope for additional employment in forestry. It is a matter of shame in respect of successive Governments that the great potential in this area was not exploited to the full extent and that more jobs were not provided in this sector.

It is tragic that such a vast amount of Irish timber has been exported in recent times at ridiculously low prices. It might have been more socially beneficial to use that timber to heat the homes of our aged and poor people rather than selling it abroad at these absurdly low prices. I contend that the timber should have been put to better use. How beneficial it would have been if it had been used as an adjunct to the free fuel scheme, thus providing heating for needy people. There is evidence of large imports of timber of doubtful quality. This is disconcerting at a time when Irish mills are closing and when hundreds if not thousands of Irishmen and women are thrown out of employment because of the shortage of timber.

I am pleased that the Minister is coming to the rescue of some industries, especially the industry at Scariff. My wish is that help would be given to more industries that are in trouble. I agree with Deputy White that it is a good thing to see a Minister in charge of forestry who is prepared to come to the rescue of these industries and give them assistance to survive. This is a welcome trend and I congratulate the Minister on this matter. It is admirable that he is prepared to provide public money to maintain jobs in this sector.

We had been worried about a different trend in the Department in recent years, starting with the sale of the boatyards attached to BIM. This was a dangerous trend which we deplored at the time. I am glad to see that to some extent the attack on semi-State industries has been set aside and I welcome the positive involvement by the State in the maintenance of industries attached to the Department of Fisheries and Forestry.

The Labour Party have always called for decent conditions and wages and for proper safeguards for forestry workers not merely in respect of everyday employment but with regard to sickness and retirement pensions. We are pleased that such great progress has been made in recent years in improving the lot of forestry workers. There was a time not so long ago when conditions in the industry were intolerable — the wages were poor and the suffering and privation of the workers was acute.

It should not be necessary for public representatives or the unions representing the men to have to appeal to the Minister or the Department for items that should be supplied without intervention being necessary. I have in mind the provision of shelters and protective clothing. This should automatically be provided by the forester in charge and the unions or public representatives should not have to intervene in such matters.

While I welcome the intervention of the Minister with regard to the sawmills at Scariff I am concerned that he did not refer to the two State sawmills under his jurisdiction. One of these sawmills is in my constituency in Dundrum. County Tipperary. This mill gives very valuable employment. It is the mainstay of this area which is bereft of any worthwhile industry. Naturally I want to see that industry not merely safeguarded but expanded and developed along modern lines. I do not want to see any strictures being placed on that expansion and I would be fearful and concerned lest anything might happen to it in the future. I ask the Minister to give me an assurance that he will personally nurture and develop these sawmills under his care and afford them every opportunity of expansion.

There is ample evidence to show that the Government are not in love with State enterprises as such. The sale of the boatyards of BIM is proof of that, as is the proposed break-up of CIE and of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. We are concerned to ensure that there should not be any interference with matters which are the responsibility of the State, and that is why I am seeking a positive assurance with regard to the future of the State timber mills, especially the factory at Dundrum in my constituency. I raised this matter recently by way of Dáil Question and was given the impression in respect of the Dundrum factory that some kind of investigation or inquiry was afoot concerning its future. I should be grateful to be informed as to what precisely is happening there. What is the nature of the inquiry and by whom is it being conducted? What are their terms of reference? When will the outcome be known and will the findings be made public? I am concerned about the stability of these State sawmills, small as they are. The workers of Tipperary whom I have the honour to represent in this House wish to know where they stand in this important matter.

Subhead C.3 refers to sawmills. However, the Minister did not refer in his speech to that subhead and I should be greateful for elaboration.

It would be remiss of me not to avail of this opportunity of joining with the Minister in extending most sincere congratulations to Dr. Tony Meaney on his appointment as chief executive officer. Dr. Meaney has had a brilliant career in the Department and he brings to his new post much experience and widespread knowledge of all matters appertaining to fisheries. The board are most fortunate in securing the services of this dedicated and brilliant young man and I wish him much personal happiness in his exalted position. I express the hope that he will derive great satisfaction from his work and that great achievements will accrue from all his future undertakings in this important office. My extension of congratulations to Dr. Meaney is all the more sincere because I know him personally and because he happens to be a native of my own town of Clonmel.

I have given the Deputy the opportunity of praising someone outside the House. I hope someone else does not come in and do otherwise. Generally we do not either praise or attack a person outside the House.

I hope the Chair is not implying that I was critical of remarks made by Deputy Treacy.

I did not hear any remarks made by Deputy Donnellan.

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle may not be aware that the Minister specifically referred to the elevation of Dr. Tony Meaney during his speech.

I am so aware and for that reason I allowed the Deputy to follow suit. However, we need to be a little careful.

It is a source of much satisfaction to all of us that this excellent young man is taking on these responsibilities and we wish him every happiness and success in his future undertakings.

The Minister referred to the establishment of a very important industrial enterprise at Clonmel. The Medford Corporation of Oregon, USA, are setting up a company there to undertake the manufacture of medium density fibreboard. This is very welcome news to my constituents and my own people of Clonmel. It was a matter of much regret to me, that, due to illness, I was unable to be present at the recent official launching of this enterprise, I should like to avail of this opportunity to express my personal delight at their coming, to wish them boundless success and assure them of the utmost assistance we can render them in South Tipperary in order to make the enterprise successful in every way. The Medford Corporation will prove to be a very important adjunct of the Forestries Section of the Minister's Department. It is a major wood processing company engaged in the manufacture of plywood veneer, general timber and fibreboard and, in the sphere of medium-density fibreboard production, theirs is a quality product used principally in furniture manufacture. They are amongst the world's leading producers. It is a very large, much valued enterprise. It is expected to provide employment for some 200 workers in the factory with a further 250 engaged in timber harvesting, that is, a complement of 450 workers. In an area of high unemployment, redundancies and short-time workings, from which my town and constituency are not excluded, this is welcome news indeed. I extend to all concerned my heartfelt good wishes for the success of the enterprise.

I do not want to delay this debate unduly. I feel I have made the salient points I wanted to make on this occasion. If I have seemed to be ever-critical of the lack of worthwhile news in the Minister's brief it is only because I am really concerned about some of Ireland's most cherished assets, our fishing and forestry industries. I would ask the Minister to dwell on the views expressed by Members of this House very carefully and, whenever the time comes for replying, to come back to us with much better news, with more hope for the fishing industry, more positive information concerning the kind of redress required to undo the wrongs imposed on all concerned in the industry today, from outside influences, such as lack of activity on the part of the EEC in respect of such matters as imports of fish or whatever from Third countries. As I have said, where the EEC failed to act, our Minister and Government must act. I urge them to do so now before it is too late and irreparable damage has been done to our fishing industry.

I appreciate that my time will be fairly limited. The House will be glad to know that I do not intend to refer to the Forestry Section.

However, I welcome this opportunity of referring specifically to the fishing industry since this question is of prime and immediate concern to my constituency. I listened with keen interest to the Minister's deliberations and indeed those of Deputy White and his colleague. Where as it is their duty to be critical it is their duty also to be constructive in such criticism. Deputy White commenced by complimenting the Minister on his eloquence but then proceeded to adopt a negative attitude towards the remainder of his speech. There were statements such as "not a bob", "did not care a damn", "nothing new" and "no directive".

While I do not completely dissociate myself from the fact that the fishing industry is in difficulty, I should like to highlight some benefits in this respect that have accrued to County Donegal in the past year. Here I should refer in particular to expenditure such as Bord Iascaigh Mhara grants for fishing boats which amounted to £4,684 million, Bord Iascaigh Mhara loans for fishing boats which amounted to £8.420 million, EEC grants for fishing boats which amounted to £923,000, and Killybegs Harbour syncro lift £369,000.

Has that been erected?

The Deputy should allow Deputy Coughlan to make his own speech.

The syncro lift material has been ordered. I can give the Deputy all the relevant information. The design work for the civil engineering structure is being completed and contract documents should be available in the near future. It is anticipated that the public works should be in operation by 1982 — that is the most up-to-date information. That is not to say that we are without difficulty and, with this in mind, I wish to make the best use of the time available to me. We have the construction of the auction hall in Killybegs, the syncro lift to which I have referred, the general dredging of the harbour, which allocation is being increased since it has been found necessary to cater for larger-sized vessels. Indeed I am disappointed that the Department of Fisheries have dissociated themselves from making an allocation towards the shore road, which is now the responsibility of Donegal County Council, and of prime concern to the development of Killybegs. There is a commitment from the Government towards the reclamation of the seaward side of the shore road and reclamation of the area between the new roadway and the present shoreline. During the course of the past few months the Government also gave a commitment of expenditure in excess of £1.3 million for the development, dredging and extension of the Burtonport facilities. As Deputy White so ably said, there is a commitment also to the development of Mulroy Bay, a very worth-while and significant project.

While I feel we should accept criticism I feel it is our duty here also to be as constructive as possible. Indeed there were a number of items in respect of which I found myself in total agreement with my two colleagues on the far side of the House in relation to the fishing industry. It is on this aspect I wish to speak and I shall endeavour to be as brief as possible. There was a time when words of learned length and thundering sound amazed the gazing rustics but that applies no longer. That will not put money into the pockets of the fishermen.

Hear, hear,

I wish to be associated with Deputy White's remarks about a meeting which we attended in Killybegs. It was a very informative meeting, the end product of which was the presentation of a document to us by the Killybegs Fishermen's Organisation. These people have put a large amount of effort and energy into the preparation of this document. It is the only possible constructive, real, method of assisting fishermen in their hour of need. We could underline the question of need because, at the moment, the plight of fishermen, particularly those in Killybegs, is very serious.

There are two obvious danger factors in the situation — the present price of diesel and the present low price of fish at auction level. Many people know exactly the price they pay in shops for fish fingers, fillets and so on and are of the opinion that those prices filter through in a reasonable manner and reward the man going fishing in the bay, to whom I am directing my attention today. In actual fact, there is no correlation whatsoever between the prices asked in shops and those received by fishermen. In our discussion with the fishermen, it was very difficult to arrive at an acceptable solution in relation to the price of diesel. An obvious suggestion would be a subsidy, but this line of thought would be dangerous. Every other industry which uses diesel would then have an equal right to direct aid from the Government.

The Government must act upon the prices received by fishermen at the moment. People may not be aware that for a skipper to take out his boat for a night's fishing — and this is the average boat — would cost about £200 before he catches a fish at all. On the bigger vessels now operating out of Killybegs — and I have family connections fishing on some of these — one of the crew recently told me that when in full operation they spend in the region of £50 worth of diesel per hour. This is a colossal commitment and is the main reason why the Killybegs fishermen now find themselves in difficulties. I make reference, not to the larger vessels in this instance, but to the smaller boats. They have two choices — they can spend their nights fishing and, it is hoped, catch something, or they can tie up at the pier.

At present, they are encountering a difficulty which they have never encountered to the same degree in 30 years, and some have been fishing for that length of time. They are in an industry which cannot be compared with any other sector of our workforce. They are totally committed, totally dedicated to their work and are working in excess of 100 hours per week. This factor has never been highlighted. We talk of 40 and 44-hour weeks, but these men fish in excess of 100 hours. Most have long experience and their association with the same type of employment for such a long period would render it difficult to deploy them in other industries if our fishing industries collapse. I genuinely feel that disaster for many of our fishing fleets is just around the corner. I may be parochial in referring to Killybegs alone, but my remarks apply equally to fishermen around our coasts. For that reason. I beg forgiveness for labouring the point on Killybegs.

When I spoke last in this House, I said that the development of the fishing industry is very important for County Donegal. The Government must, indeed, be complimented on their efforts in this direction. I have not come here today to defend the Minister — he is big enough, strong enough and capable enough of defending himself. From where I sit, he could certainly not be described as "Baby Power", but I will leave the Minister to deal with that criticism.

I compliment him on his commitment to the job. In his term of office, he has dedicated himself fully and wholly to the welfare of a very small section of the voting population. Let us be clear on one thing, the entire fishing industry embraces about 6,000 people and could not be regarded as a great vote-catching sector. That has never been the consideration of the Minister. The development of the fishing industry at Killybegs is directly attributable to him.

Skippers are encountering extraordinary difficulties in maintaining crews. It is a known fact in Killybegs that many of these fishermen have not made one penny. I agree with Deputy White that some boats have been tied up since November. If this situation is allowed to continue, the fleet will certainly collapse and the livelihood of the entire population of Killybegs will be in danger. The hub of the fishing industry is the man who goes out fishing in the bay. I am being objective when I say that development has not been oriented around this important hub, but around ancillary industries. It is time to change.

Someone complimented a certain gentleman on his appointment. I wish to be associated with those remarks and hope that he can bring a change into the thinking within BIM. BIM have quantified and qualified the needs of the fishermen in the smaller fleets by assessing the larger fleets. Those larger boats are doing fairly well, but that is not the case with the smaller boats. This new appointee will, it is hoped, apply his dedication and determination to assisting those in need.

It is only reasonable that the fishermen will watch, with keen interest, the lavish subsidies paid to farmers — sheep and cattle subsidies — when it has been established that there has been a downward trend in the price of fish. Our present diesel rate is around £1.02 per gallon but some of our EEC colleagues pay from 50p to 63p. There are anomalies there. Let there be no misunderstanding in relation to the difficulties arising out of subsidising diesel. It would be unwise to ask for a direct subsidy on diesel. If the Department can see any way of increasing the 2p already granted, this would be welcome news. It is absolutely important that immediate action be taken.

From our discussions with the fishermen it is not a question of things getting better next year. They are in difficulty at the moment. Many are in very serious straits financially and their recovery will be long-term. I should like to try to bring into perspective the downward trend that has taken place. I want to highlight the situation. I have been given by the Killybegs Fishermen's Organisation a rough estimate comparing prices in 1977 with those obtaining today. In 1977 whiting commanded £11.50 approximately per box. The average price today is £8.40. In 1977 haddock commanded £15 per box. Today it is £15. In 1977 mackerel commanded £3.50 per box. Today it is £3.31. Herring in 1977 averaged £14 a box. Today it average £12.20. In 1977 cod was approximately £20 per box. Today it is £17.69. Round haddock in 1977 was £15 a box. Today it averages £8.40. One does not have to be very intelligent to appreciate these drops in prices.

The prices for fish are in no way compatible with the price increases that have taken place in other foodstuffs. Fish prices have not kept in line with the prices of other foodstuffs. In the agriculture sector subsidies were actually introduced to help the farmers in difficult periods. It is now time some form of subsidy was introduced to assist the fishermen. We have reached the stage where a subsidy must be introduced. It is unbelievable that in this day and age a box of whiting can be bought in Killybegs for £5.70 and subsequently appear in the shops at 80 pence upwards per 1b. I made out a rough table to illustrate the position. A box of whiting at £5.70 will produce approximately 42 1bs. filleted. The current price in the shops is 80 pence per 1b. The fishermen received £5.70 and the same fish is sold in the shops for £33.60. A box of cod bought in Killybegs at £17 is sold filleted in the shops at £1.30 which gives a figure of £54.60 as against £17. Surely where the exercise has to take place is in the field of prices. I do not envisage the Minister subsidising the cost of diesel but I see room for improvement in both the marketing and the price of fish, particularly from the point of view of the man going out into the bay to catch the fish.

The real disgrace is surely the amount of fish going for withdrawal. I can quote approximate figures in Killybegs last year; 953 tons of whiting, 2,039 tons of mackerel, 118 tons of round haddock, 3 tons of plaice, 3 tons of cod, six tons of silf plus six tons of hake, making a total of approximately 3,130 tons of fish converted into fishmeal. There was a total withdrawal of 10,200 tons. Surely we have reached the stage where we must seriously consider the conservation of foodstuffs.

This brings me once more to the question of a support price for fish. I have here a table complied by experts, men associated with the industry for quite a number of years, men representing the fishermen and their needs. I intend to discuss the matter with the Minister at the first opportunity. The structure is there whereby this particular system could be operated. All that is needed is goodwill and I know we have that from the other side of the House. We may have differences of opinion in relation to other aspects but we are all agreed that the fishermen must be catered for. It is a question of immediate action. If the Department in conjunction with the fishermen's organisation could have a worthwhile discussion I can see that the people who would not benefit so much would be the people engaged in processing. Deputy White mentioned that an increase, or a levy, or a subsidy in respect of fish would cost around £5 million. It does not necessarily follow that that would bring about an increase in price to the consumer because there is a big enough gap there already, three to four per cent, and there is room for everybody in the industry if the right attitude is adopted and if people are not selfish. I would urge the Minister to take immediate action to ensure success for the fishermen and to help them out in this very difficult period.

I agree with Deputy Coughlan that the prices paid to the fishermen compared with the price paid by the consumers is something calling for immediate remedy. I wonder who is responsible for the situation? I would remind the House there was a different Government in office in 1977 and surely that Government is entitled to some credit for keeping costs as low as they were and keeping prices as satisfactory as they were compared to the hideously dilapidated state of the industry today. I heard Deputy Treacy talk about fishermen going out of business. I am interested in one particular fishery where I would hope for the goodwill of the Ministers — indeed, not just his goodwill but, as one of his own councillors said in Galway recently, if the Minister cannot do it we will get the Taoiseach to do it.

Debate adjourned.
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