Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 21 Oct 1981

Vol. 330 No. 2

Issue of Writ: Motion.

Mr. Moore

I move.

That the Ceann Comhairle direct the Clerk of the Dáil to issue his Writ for the election of a member to fill the vacancy which has occurred in the membership of the present Dáil consequent on the death of Deputy Kieran Doherty, a member for the Constituency of Cavan-Monaghan.

I regret I have to move this writ because of the death of a colleague who was elected by the people of that area and I hope he is at rest. Having said that, if the democratic system is to be operated we should move, without any further delay, to elect a Deputy to succeed the late Kieran Doherty. Last night the Leader of the Opposition made an excellent suggestion, that the Taoiseach should agree to the writ and that Senator Dooge should be a candidate.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is agreeing? He is very kind——

Mr. Moore

Only with the consent of the people of Cavan-Monaghan. The Senator should be put forward to receive the imprimatur of the people of that area. I am sure the Senator would be very satisfied if he was elected and the people of that area could have full representation. It would also give the Taoiseach an opportunity of mounting his crusade on his white charger up to Swanlinbar and Monaghan town. Then he will see that the people think of his crusade. He would get some straight answers. He could bring his knights of temperance with him and make a really good show, but I do not think he would win the election. In fairness to people up there, they should have full representation. Naturally, it will be a Fianna Fáil Deputy.

The Taoiseach

Does this represent the sum total of the views of the Opposition?

Mr. Moore

We want to know if the writ has been passed.

The Taoiseach

Does anybody else want to speak? Deputy Wilson is poised to go.

Mr. Haughey

A number of our Members wish to speak, but before we do we wish to know if the Government are going to accept the motion. Are the Government afraid to say they are going to oppose it?

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Haughey

On a point of order, this is unprecedented. We have a motion here to move a writ for a by-election and the leader of the Government will not tell us whether he is going to oppose it.

The Taoiseach

Nothing that has been said so far convinces me it should be moved. I am willing to hear other arguments.

Mr. Haughey

I take it, if the Leader of the Government does not indicate he is opposing the motion, it is agreed?

The Taoiseach

I am entitled to conclude.

Mr. Colley

On a point of order, the Taoiseach is under a misapprehension when he talks about concluding. Deputy Moore moved the motion and he will conclude.

The Taoiseach

I should like to hear other speakers. If they do not want me to hear their arguments I am more than willing to make my remarks without having heard their arguments because I do not believe their remarks will be any more cogent than the ráiméis we heard from Deputy Moore a few minutes ago. The Opposition seem to have great difficulty in settling into their new task. Yesterday they sought to choose the members of the Government. Today they seek to choose our candidate for the by-election. It is a sad thought from their point of view that they are in opposition but they will have to accept it. They must accept that I am Taoiseach and will be for a little while to come. Perhaps I shall be Taoiseach for a long time to come, but that is a matter which will be settled in due course. In the meantime the choice of Ministers rests with me and the choice of the Fine Gael candidate will rest with the Fine Gael Party. Suggestions are, of course, welcome and helpful but will not determine the issue in that regard. We have democratic procedures and they involve consultations of certain kinds common to political parties and we will be engaging in that when the time comes.

With regard to the proposal that the writ for the by-election be taken now, we are not disposed to accept that proposal. It would be quite abnormal to have a by-election at this stage immediately after a general election. We have a very heavy legislative programme to get through. I think I am correct in recalling that in about 1961 — and I had confirmation of this from the other side of the House informally some time ago — Deputy Blaney initiated the practice under which very large numbers of Members of the Dáil and Seanad descended upon a constituency so that every voter had an opportunity of being canvassed directly by Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas. This is a courtesy extended in by-elections which is greatly appreciated by the voters. When Deputy Blaney initiated the practice we felt it desirable, in fairness to the voters, that they should have the same courtesy from our side of the House. Since then at every by-election the Oireachtas have descended en masse on all constituencies. I suggested jokingly, on one occasion to my opposite number that some type of nuclear disarmament agreement be entered into on this matter in which we would agree to withhold some of the SS20s to keep the Dáil going. Problems were seen about the variable quality of missiles, the difficulty in determining which were standard missiles, which substandard and which super standard.

Mr. MacSharry

The Taoiseach has obviously forgotten about our neutrality.

The Taoiseach

This slightly frivolous suggestion did not meet with much enthusiasm on the other side of the House. In the absence of such a nuclear disarmament agreement, if we now agree to the writ of this by-election, effectively the time of this House for serious discussion and the determination of measures of great importance to the future of this country in the years immediately ahead would have to be confined, effectively, to a period of five instead of eight weeks. Given the existing legislative programme this is not feasible. I reflected on this for some time when on holidays and came to the conclusion that, given the time involved, it would not be practical to put this through.

I also, naturally, gave consideration to the relative political advantages of different times and came to the conclusion that this was indeterminate and indeterminable. The pros and cons were such that the balance was so indeterminate that the only consideration which could apply in these circumstances must be the question of the legislative programme. On that basis I finally reached the conclusion which I recommended to the Government.

This programme includes, first of all, Finance Bill No. 2 implementing the provisions of the budget and which has to include, I am advised, Finance Bill No. 3 to implement the major tax reforms which the Government are introducing. This is because of the radical nature of this tax reform, changing over, as it does, from the old system of tax allowances to tax credits, a very important reform indeed. The tax allowance system, of course, gives a special advantage to people in higher tax brackets who may receive up to 60 per cent remission in respect of any allowance, whereas the tax credit system operates equitably.

Mr. Haughey

On a point of order, I have no wish to interrupt the Taoiseach and would like to afford him every courtesy. I feel, however, that he should confine himself to the writ. He is now embarking on a discussion of legislation which is to come before the House which we have not seen. In fairness and courtesy to the House, he should confine himself to this matter of the writ for the Cavan-Monaghan by-election.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

I am entitled to give my reasons.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

I was asked to give my reasons and I would like to give them. The changeover to tax credits instead of tax allowances for the personal allowance aspect of the income tax code is very fundamental. Accordingly the implementation of that and of the associated payment of £9.60p to non-working housewives I am advised by the Revenue Commissioners could only be undertaken if legislation goes through in this Session.

Mr. Gene Fitzgerald

Does the Taoiseach still believe that?

The Taoiseach

If it were left to be put through after the budget, it would not be implemented by the date set, provided and announced at the first press conference after the election, that is, the beginning of the income tax year, April next year. Accordingly, we must bring in that legislation this term. It will be a somewhat complex and radical measure of reform to make the code equitable where it has, up to now, operated unfairly in favour of the well-to-do and against the less well-off. It will, of course, involve a net improvement, allowing for whatever increases in taxation are required to compensate, both direct and indirect, in the position of the people in the lower and middle income groups and a corresponding disimprovement for people in the higher income groups, since we are concerned with equitable distribution of income. The party opposite, in their budgets, achieved a much more inequitable distribution than existed previously.

Another measure which we must bring in with great urgency is the Youth Employment Agency measure. I hope the other side of the House will welcome it though that welcome may not extend to every detail of it and they could try to make political capital by picking on some aspect and seeking to modify it as they are entitled to do. But we would need a full Dáil to discuss it. This measure, for which raising money by a 1 per cent levy on all incomes is supplemented by substantial additional money from the Social Fund in Europe, will enable us at least to treble, if not more, the present level of activity in regard to youth employment, in terms of work experience programme, AnCO training and direct provision for employment of young people in various areas. This very major reform requires somewhat complex legislation. It is vital that we start raising this money and meeting our target of 20,000 young people catered for by this agency as soon as possible. I am sure that this Bill will receive a general welcome from the Opposition. We cannot be certain what tactics they might adopt and I am not prepared to have something of this kind put at risk or in jeopardy by having a——

Mr. Colley

By-election.

The Taoiseach

——situation where we are not in command of the Dáil during the period or else have to abandon the poor electorate of Cavan-Monaghan to the tender and so caring mercies of the Fianna Fáil Deputies and Senators. They might not appreciate that and might feel that we were leaving them very exposed in these circumstances. They might legitimately resent the fact that they were not being presented with our side of the case by people on the opposite side.

Mr. Lenihan

The Taoiseach is running away from the people.

The Taoiseach

I am certainly not going to allow that. Another Bill to which we attach great urgency, and the heads of which have also been passed by the Government to come before the House before long, is the Housing Agency Bill, which will mobilise forms of capital not now available for housing, without cost to the Exchequer, and enables houses to be provided on the basis of being earnings-related so that young people can, by committing a share of their income not exceeding 17½ to 20 per cent, be housed in houses whose cost at present is beyond them and would require under existing arrangements repayments of perhaps half or more of their incomes.

Mr. Haughey

On a point of order, I will accept the ruling of the Chair on this matter, of course, but I would like the Chair to rule on this very simple motion seeking the movement of the writ for the Cavan-Monaghan by-election, whether it is in order for the Taoiseach to engage in a long discourse about the forthcoming legislative programme about which we have no knowledge and of which we have not been informed.

The Taoiseach

I am informing the House.

Mr. Haughey

If the Chair rules that the Taoiseach is in order in doing this, we have no option. I want to put it that it is not in order on this motion for the Taoiseach to engage in this long discourse in which he is at present engaged.

Minister for the Environment (Mr. P. Barry)

We are giving the House reasons why the writ should not be moved.

An Ceann Comhairle

For the benefit of the House reference may be made as to why there should not be a by-election but these reasons cannot be gone into in any great detail.

The Taoiseach

I appreciate that and have no intention of doing so. I am merely giving the purpose of each Bill so that the House will appreciate why they are urgent and why we are not prepared to have them held up in any circumstances.

Mr. Colley

How long does the Whip want the Taoiseach to go on?

Mr. P. Barry

We can take the matter now, if the Deputy likes.

The Taoiseach

The Whip is perfectly happy, but I have not given my reasons yet. Just allow me to add, without going through the complete list, that there are other Bills which are of less urgent importance. There is one of great urgency, the urgency of which the Opposition will accept, though on detail we may disagree. That is the Bill which must be introduced to deal with the rent restriction situation. This is held in suspense by legislation introduced previously for a period of six months and must be put through in this session. Otherwise, there would be immense hardship for many people in rent restricted accommodation if they were required to pay rents which they could not afford unless provision is made to deal with that. That measure must go through in this session.

There are Bills such as the National Development Corporation and the fire service legislation which was held up by the summer break, which is extremely urgent and must be got through as rapidly as possible. Having left this so long is a matter on which we cannot be happy. To get these Bills through in five weeks would not be practical. To get them through in eight weeks, three of which involve a by-election, would not be practical.

In these circumstances, we cannot accept the moving of the writ at this stage but will ask the House to give us its support in not involving itself in a by-election at the expense of the public interest in respect of these measures all of which are vital to the public interest at this time, without going beyond the other possible measures we would like to get through but which are not as vital.

For that reason I think I am entitled to give this limited explanation. We are moving to reject this motion. I would like to have heard other arguments put forward by the Opposition, but apparently they do not wish to put forward any other speakers. I gather the House wants a vote now and I am happy to provide the opportunity.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Wilson.

Mr. Colley

Trying to silence us as well as the people of Cavan-Monaghan.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Moore asked for a vote immediately.

Mr. Haughey

The onus is on the Taoiseach to prove why we must not have a by-election.

Mr. P. Barry

North Tipperary.

Mr. Wilson

We will not be silenced. I want to speak in support of Deputy Moore's motion to have the writ moved for the Cavan-Monaghan by-election. I have very good and solid reasons for doing that. I will start by mentioning the size of the constituency. It borders on Aughnacloy, County Tyrone; moving south east, it extends to Crossmaglen; moving north west, it extends to Blacklion, Belloo, County Fermanagh. It borders three of the six Ulster counties, another reason why the seat should not be left vacant any longer. It borders Louth, Meath, Westmeath and Longford in Leinster, Leitrim in Connacht. There are three provinces involved. This is an important, pivotal, and very large constituency.

It is a constituency which in the past, up to the last general election, has shown great respect for democracy; it is a constituency which could be taken as an exemplar in the whole of Ireland with regard to exercising their democratic rights in voting. This is no latter-day conversion to democracy. Two years after the Ballot Act was passed in 1872, Cavan invited a Presbyterian, significant in the context of the politics of today, to stand for election and he was elected as nationalist MP for that area. At the last by-election in that area we had Arthur Griffiths as our candidate and we elected him to this House. Again we gave an example to the country of the proper exercise of democracy. We had the highest valid poll in 1981 and the highest quota, if one excepts the constituency which had the Ceann Comhairle. We had the highest Fianna Fáil votes — and this is significant — in the whole country, except for Clare.

We are told this by-election cannot take place because of a heavy programme of legislation. The Taoiseach said that in 1961 Deputy Blaney laid down some structures for by-elections. Why does the Taoiseach feel he must follow this now? Why can he not keep the House going? Why can he not advance his legislative programme in the normal way? If he does not agree with what Deputy Blaney did, why does he feel he must follow that course now?

The Pandora's box was opened this summer and all the ills, doom and more doom, were let loose to try to break down the spirit of the country. One little thing was left in Pandora's box and that was hope, and the electorate had that hope because they knew a by-election had to be held in Cavan-Monaghan, and that they would be able to let the Government know what they thought of their philosophy and their attempt to break the spirit of the people in the difficult circumstances that exist.

I gathered from what the Taoiseach was saying that he was not addressing the House but a few Independents, and the Government are skulking behind those Independents. On a recent radio programme we had a lot of clap-trap from a Deputy about the Cavan-Monaghan constituency. I submit that he knows sweet damn all about that constituency. He said the people who voted for Kieran Doherty knew he was an abstentionist candidate. That shows he does not know anything about the general election campaign. The Minister for Fisheries and Forestry can verify that the campaign was not conducted on an abstentionist basis. People were asked to vote for Kiernan Doherty and saved his life. Many older and young voters did that, but unfortunately his life was not saved, even though he got the votes.

In the general election the total valid poll in the Cavan-Monaghan constituency was 60,411. In Limerick East—and some Members from Limerick East chose to pontificate on this issue—the total valid poll was 48,590. In other words, Cavan-Monaghan had about 15,000 votes more, or three times the number of votes given to the Deputy who spoke about Cavan-Monaghan.

The Government should come out and face the electorate in that constituency. Some concern was shown about who would represent the Fianna Fáil Party in that by-election. We have chosen Senator Jim Leonard and know he will be the next TD for that constituency. Fine Gael may have problems but if they want to try to have Senator Dooge elected, that is their business. We are only too anxious to get the Government's record, their attitude towards employment and their lack of social concern before the people. We want to get a judgment from the people on those matters but we are not going to get it apparently.

Once there was a heavyweight boxing championship match arranged in the United States between Max Baer and Joe Louis. When the time came and the bell went, Max Baer was not available. They found him skulking in the toilets. They had to chuck him out of the toilet and throw him into the ring to fight for the championship. We want Fine Gael, and Labour too, to come out and stop skulking, to face the people and have this by-election.

Minister for Fisheries and Forestry (Mr. Fitzpatrick,

Cavan-Monaghan): It is really amusing that the Fianna Fáil Party are so anxious for a by-election in Cavan-Monaghan, basing their argument on the necessity to ensure that this constituency is fully represented. That argument would be much more convincing if the precedent of North Tipperary were not so fresh in our minds. It is only a very short time since a vacancy was created in North Tipperary when a Deputy of ministerial calibre was sent to represent us in Europe. Not only was North Tipperary deprived at that time of an active and able Deputy but it was deprived of a Minister and a Mercedes.

Dr. Loughnane

It still is.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): At that time the last Dáil had about 18 months to run and nobody anticipated a general election. The then Taoiseach enjoyed, numerically at any rate, the full strength of a majority of 18 Members in this House and it was reasonable to expect that he would serve his term of office of another 18 months. When the writ for a by-election in North-Tipperary was moved here it was voted down by the Fianna Fáil Party, led by the then Taoiseach.

Many people wondered why the then Taoiseach chose such a time for the general election but I had no doubt as to why he did so. It was obvious that he had no choice because he managed the affairs of the country in such a way that he could not afford to delay the election. It was held at a most unfortunate time; and, notwithstanding what Deputy Wilson has said about Fianna Fáil getting the largest vote in the country, they lost a seat in Cavan-Monaghan and their vote in the constituency dropped by 7 per cent.

Mr. Wilson

The Deputy lost 2,000 votes.

Mr. Fitzpatrick (Cavan-Monaghan)

I did because I had the guts to fight in the best interests of the party.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): Fianna Fáil cannot take their medicine. They came out of Cavan-Monaghan minus one seat. Deputy Wilson talked about Pandora's Box being opened but when we were entrusted with the Government of this country we opened the cupboard and found that not only was it absolutely bare but the bottom had fallen out of it. It will take very hard work to get the economy right again. The former Taoiseach admitted as much in January 1980 when he said that the finances of the country were in a terrible state, that borrowing could not go on and that discipline would have to be introduced into our finances. We saw what he actually did about it and these are the problems with which we have to deal. It is to be hoped that the performance of the Opposition yesterday and today is not an indication of the help we will get from them in rectifying and remedying the mess they left behind.

Mr. Lenihan

The Minister wants to close down the House.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): We want to get on with the work.

Mr. Lenihan

It is the old Blueshirt stuff.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): We know how Deputy MacSharry got to be a Minister. We wish to get on with the work of the House.

I do not wish to go into the sad difficulties that beset the people of Cavan-Monaghan during the last election but it cannot be said that they are being deprived of the representation they got. Following the election they had four Deputies to represent them and, as far as anyone could see, they would have that representation for the lifetime of this Dáil. Notwithstanding what Deputy Wilson says, in my opinion the general election in Cavan-Monaghan was fought on the basis that Deputy Kieran Doherty would not take his seat.

Those were the practicalities of the situation and it cannot be truthfully said that the people of Cavan-Monaghan have less representation now than they had when the result of the general election was declared. As a matter of fact they have more Oireachtas Members because they have more Senators now than they had then. It is true that the Cavan-Monaghan constituency is a big one but it is also true that the people of Monaghan and Cavan are being well served by the Deputies they returned. I do not wish to go into the question of candidates but I must refer to it as it has been introduced this morning. I understand that there was a fair bit of fun and games at the Fianna Fáil convention and that the leader of the Fianna Fáil Party had to descend from the platform, approach one of the members who was standing, a Deputy Reynolds man——

Mr. Wilson

Nonsense.

Mr. MacSharry

Another lie; another lie.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan):——and persuade him to withdraw.

Mr. Reynolds

The trouble is that the Deputy's party cannot get any sort of candidate at all. Is that not true?

Mr. J. Mitchell

On a point of order, I should like to draw attention to the fact that Deputy MacSharry repeated twice, "another lie". I should like to know if it is in order for him to use those words and imply that another Member of the House is telling a lie?

An Ceann Comhairle

I did not hear it.

Mr. Haughey

To put the matter beyond all doubt I have no hesitation in saying that what the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry has just said is completely untrue and if he has to resort to untruths to bolster his case I am sorry for him.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): I of course accept what Deputy Haughey has said. My information may not be correct in detail but, in substance, I understand that very considerable pressure had to be put on a bright young man to withdraw his name, a bright young man who was being pushed very hard by Deputy Albert Reynolds. Those are the stories.

Mr. Reynolds

That is totally untrue, and the Deputy knows it.

Mr. Lenihan

The Deputy was talking to himself in the bathroom this morning.

Mr. Fitzpatrick (Cavan-Monaghan)

It is also very amusing now to hear all the sympathy being expressed for Senator Jimmy Leonard because in the last general election when it was generally known that Fianna Fáil were going to lose a seat they were all out then to ditch poor Jimmy Leonard to save another candidate and they did so. That was general knowledge all over County Monaghan. Honestly, I do not think the House can afford the luxury of three weeks of the sort of by-election campaign that goes on with the House being neglected and the business of the country being neglected. I also think — I know that many Fianna Fáil members think — that late November, in those dark and dreary days is not a very suitable time for a by-election in Cavan-Monaghan.

Mr. Killilea

The Minister should look behind him at all the smiling faces.

Mr. Lenihan

Not for virile men; it is all right for them.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): Just as Fianna Fáil decided when the North Tipperary by-election would be held with 18 months of that Dáil to go we will decide when the Cavan-Monaghan by-election will be held and it will be at a much more suitable time than the dark and dreary days of November.

Mr. Leyden

Deputy Jimmy Kemmy will decide when it will be held.

Dr. O'Hanlon

I support Deputy Moore's motion. I should like to make a comment on our convention seeing that the Minister, Deputy Fitzpatrick, referred to it. My comment is that perhaps we should not have held it when we did because it was such a successful event that it may in some way have helped to intimidate the Government into not holding the by-election.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): It was successful from Deputy O'Hanlon's point of view.

Dr. O'Hanlon

It will come as a matter of a great disappointment to the voters in that constituency that this by-election is not being held. As Deputy Wilson pointed out, it is a large constituency with more than 76,000 voters. The constituency extends right across the whole of Ireland from within five or six miles of the east coast near Dundalk to within less than 20 miles of Sligo. A by-election at this time would give the people there an opportunity to pass judgment on the performance of the Government. The constituency is broadly representative of all the people of the country and because of that a by-election would give the Government an opportunity to see how the people are responding to their policies. The fact that it is an Ulster constituency would give the Taoiseach an opportunity of finding out the feeling about his crusade to change parts of the Constitution. Indeed, one could see it as a mini-referendum. Having regard to what the Taoiseach said yesterday about pursuing this campaign he should give the people of that constituency an opportunity now to pass judgment on that aspect of his policy.

The same applies to the economic policies of the Government. I do not intend to deal with the changes that have come about since the Government took office but there is a strong feeling in the constituency about the Government's performance particularly in relation to the massive increase in taxation in July. Deputy Fitzpatrick referred to the way the Government found the country's finances when they came to office but a lot of the credibility of that story has gone in my constituency. People there point out that within one hour of being elected to office the Taoiseach announced to the House that having studied the books he had to report that there was no money in the kitty but their view is that on that day the new Taoiseach would not have had time to read an evening newspaper let alone study the finances of the country.

Mr. McMahon

The electorate thought it in June.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Taoiseach did not have to apologise for his figures.

Mr. Reynolds

He did.

Dr. O'Hanlon

That rings very hollow in my constituency. Deputy Fitzpatrick mentioned the North Tipperary by-election but to the best of my recollection that issue was not voted on in the House. It appears that there was general agreement between the three parties not to hold a by-election.

Mr. Fitzpatrick (Cavan-Monaghan)

That is the best ever.

Dr. O'Hanlon

I take issue also with Deputy Fitzpatrick about the campaign on behalf of the H-Block candidate. There is no doubt that the people who campaigned for Kieran Doherty did so on the basis that if he was elected to Dáil Éireann it would save his life. I presume that they and the people who voted for him had in mind that if he was elected he would be in a position at some stage to take his seat in Dáil Éireann. The Taoiseach mentioned the problem of members of the Government and members of the various political parties going to the constituency to fight the by-election. In my view that would be a worth-while exercise mainly due to the fact the most of the members of the Government come from the east coast. It would be good for the Government to go to a constituency such as Cavan-Monaghan to talk to the people. When they return from the by-election we may get better legislation by virtue of the fact that they have discussed problems with such a representative gathering of people. In my view the Government should go ahead and hold the by-election. If they had confidence in what they are doing they would hoild a by-election now.

Dr. Browne

I am afraid that the last Deputy's memory is a fault. The date is 11 February 1981. The Dáil divided on the issue — Tá, 14; Níl 66. I will support the Government on this matter mainly for the grounds put forward by the Taoiseach that there is important work to be done and that the Government intends to do that work and cannot be interrupted in that work for three weeks sojourn in the Cavan-Monaghan by-election.

Deputy Haughey will recall that during the four years of the last Dáil, and indeed throughout most of my political life, there were a number of issues which I tried to encourage Fianna Fáil, and particularly Deputy Haughey, to do. To none of these would he give his attention. It now appears that this Government have made certain courageous decisions on a number of issues some of which are, I know, peripheral issues but which are important issues to the people involved — and they are sufficiently important to me at any rate for me to feel that a Government of this kind, whose lifetime may be limited, should be given every chance to honour their undertakings. I shall give them every chance to honour their undertakings and carry out their various ministerial and legislative proposals and, at another time, constitutional proposals. The issues to which I refer — and I am sure Deputy Haughey recalls them very well — are the issue of capital punishment, the issue of corporal punishment, which some people may think is not particularly important but which I believe is very important and have been campaigning for its removal since the fifties, the question of some kind of all-party committee on divorce legislation and the amendment of the Constitution in relation to that, a review of the family planning laws, all very important to the individuals concerned. As well as that, as the Taoiseach has said, there is the question of tax reform with some kind of a lean away from Fianna Fáil policy towards a more redistributive type of policy of taxation. I will judge and vote on this when I see it but the understanding I have is that we will tend to impose a greater level of taxation on the wealthy section of the community rather than on the mass of the ordinary people.

Dr. Woods

That is nonsense. Totally regressive taxation is what we are getting now.

Dr. Browne

We have watched Fianna Fáil for 40 years and this is the society we have — two nations, the wealthy minority and the very underprivileged mass of our people.

(Interruptions.)

Dr. Browne

There is the question of youth employment which is desperately needed and finance is becoming available for that, and some kind of organisation will be set up which I hope will be effective in dealing with this very serious problem. There is also the question of housing finance. These are all urgent matters which the Government say they are going to deal with. Also, there is the question of the introduction for the first time of a seriously, in the true republican sense, pluralist society here which has been resisted by Fianna Fáil all through the years since the 1937 Constitution. I obviously must support those proposals and I intend to do so. This Government have a negligible majority. They are a minority Government and so obviously in doing those things which successive Governments — Fine Gael, Labour and Fianna Fáil Governments — have, since the beginning of the State, resisted doing and refused to do, are giving evidence of a liberal advance in our society, and a person with my political views must obviously do what he can. As long as these things continue to get done I will support the Government.

As on the defence issue last night in which I pointed out that the Fianna Fáil Government were really indulging in double talk — I will not use the word hypocritical——

(Interruptions.)

Dr. Browne

——the same position holds here. It was I who moved the writ for the by-election in Tipperary. The then Government had an enormous majority, Mr. Lynch's enormous majority of 20. Is it not indeed a measure of the appalling blundering leadership by Deputy Haughey that he should now find himself fighting for this particular issue having prematurely lost this marvellous majority of 20 which he had at that time and with which he could have passed laws in respect of all these issues which I have referred to here today, the social and fiscal issues. Instead of that he squanders that wonderful majority of 20. However, his answer to me at Col. 1463, Vol. 326 was:

We on the Government side are opposing this motion because we cannot see any particular need for the holding of a by-election in North Tipperary at present.

Then he went on to give us an explanation which is still valid in relation to Cavan-Monaghan:

The people of Tipperary are represented in this House by five Deputies,

There are Deputies in Cavan-Monaghan. It is not like the direct representation system. The people are represented by excellent Deputies from all the parties and they are providing representation in this House. That was the point made by Deputy Haughey at that time. I accepted it then and it is valid also today in relation to Cavan-Monaghan. The former Taoiseach then went on:

As the by-election in Donegal last November — I hope the Opposition have not forgotten it — provided a recent opportunity for the people to give a verdict on the policies and performance of the Government and Opposition it cannot be suggested that there is any serious public demand for a further test of public opinion at this stage.

That is the case in respect of this by-election. The Deputy preceding me referred to the vote for the late Deputy Doherty. Deputy Doherty was a member of the Provisional IRA. He was a member of a political organisation who was abstentionist. He had no intention of coming into this House. He did not recognise this House. He did not recognise the institutions of the State. He was merely part of the Provisional IRA's attempt to destabilise our society with the other people that they have at the present time. The people elected him but they must also face the reality that they elected an abstentionist Deputy. They have to face the reality now that for the reasons the Taoiseach has already given there is no great urgency in this matter. The case could also be made that if the Taoiseach moved the writ now he would be promoting the case for the Provisional IRA and I do not believe this is a desirable thing. They should not be facilitated in this way. For the various reasons I have given I have no hesitation whatsoever in opposing the motion that the writ be moved.

Mr. MacSharry

I want to say a few words in support of this motion. Before the Taoiseach rose to give his address he wanted reasons why this by-election should be held. That is not relevant because the onus is on him to give reasons why it should not be held. The only reason the Taoiseach has put forward is the interruption of business in the House over the next few weeks. I have worked in many by-elections over the years and the Taoiseach is creating the impression that the House would not sit during this three-week period. All by-elections have been held during Dáil sessions. It is only with the agreement of the Government and the Opposition that an odd half day or day was missed. The full sittings of the Dáil on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday took place during by-election campaigns. The Dáil sat this time last year during a three-week campaign in Donegal without any interruption of business.

Mr. Harte

The junior Cabinet emigrated to Donegal.

Mr. MacSharry

Perhaps they did at weekends on their own business. They did not neglect their business in this House and I would expect this Government would not do so either. This reason put forward by the Taoiseach and the Government is not valid. By-elections do not interrupt Dáil business.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please.

Mr. MacSharry

Democracy is no longer important with the Government. They just want to shout down the rest of the country but they will not succeed too long with that. I am appalled at Deputy Browne, who was so great some months ago in moving a writ when the Fine Gael Party had not the courage to do so, suggesting that there is no real reason for a test of public opinion at the moment. He does not know what he is talking about. We have a Government in office who put forward two sets of programmes and put forward a third one afterwards which were never voted on by the people. If they have the guts they should face the people in a by-election. There is no way they could face the possibility of a general election, which is really what Deputy Browne and other Independents are concerned about. If this by-election was held in the near future we would win it. The Independents, in particular, would not be very long here and that is why they are saving their seats. They can go on radio and television but they will not fool anybody in the long term except themselves. My words will ring true in the not too distant future. The Independents will be very sorry they ever supported the people who are in Government now because they will turn on them before very long.(Interruptions.)

Mr. MacSharry

We have listened to reasons put forward by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry. I am putting forward the real reason why the Government will not face the electorate of Cavan-Monaghan. The Taoiseach and the Government should remember that some weeks ago after a Government meeting they were running into Cavan-Monaghan. They could not wait for the Dáil to resume to move the writ. What happened? The Minister for Fisheries and Forestry must have been at home for the weekend and he found that the Fine Gael Party had a number of candidates. It did not solve the problem by putting one of them into the Seanad.

Mr. Reynolds

It made the position worse.

Mr. MacSharry

Ever since then the problem has become worse. The Fine Gael Party began to have second thoughts. The real reason why the by-election is not taking place is that the Tánaiste and Leader of the Labour Party has threatened the Government with putting forward a very prominent female candidate on behalf of the Labour Party. These issues cannot be reconciled in the Fine Gael Party and also between Fine Gael and Labour in Government. That is the reason why we are not going to Cavan-Monaghan and it has nothing to do with Dáil business.

It is silly for the Taoiseach to get up in the House and waffle three months after a general election about pursuing policies in Government which were never voted on by the people. If the people got a chance this minute they would turn them out very fast. The Government should give them the chance in Cavan-Monaghan. If the Government care anything about democracy or if the Independents who will back the Government today and in the weeks ahead care anything for democracy we should have this by-election. I do not care how the Government vote this down or the reasons why the by-election should not be held. We live in a democracy and there is a by-election pending. No matter who is in Government, especially at the beginning of a Dáil term, that by-election should be held as quickly as possible. That is why we are moving this writ today when the Government failed to do so yesterday.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Kemmy

I am not very impressed with the level of this debate. It reminds me of what I have read about undergraduate debating. I had not the opportunity of taking part in such debating as an undergraduate but I have read a good deal about the kind of debating which goes on and the kind of schoolboy arguments which go on at those debates. I am reminded of this listening to some of the speeches by the Opposition especially those of Deputy MacSharry and Deputy John Wilson. They are all sound and fury signifying nothing because I cannot see anything in their arguments. I am not very impressed with their call for respect for democracy. As Deputy Browne said they have been in power for 40 years and during that time they were not great proponents of democracy. They were upholders of the Fianna Fáil Party's right to rule, not of democracy as a whole. Now that they are in opposition they are squealing and turning on people like me with taunts. They have some news coming to them because I am not a man who can be bought or taunted.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Kemmy

It is a very unpalatable fact for people in the Fianna Fáil Party to accept that people like me can be the centre of the stage. I am here to stay and will not be pushed by anybody on any side of the House. That is my record. When any issue comes along I will not be impressed by Fianna Fáil arguments. I will be impressed by the interests of the people outside the House because the two are not synonymous. In Ennis some time ago Deputy Haughey gave the impression that the interests of the country and the interests of the Fianna Fáil Party were synonymous but in my book they are not. History does not show that either.

I am not impressed by the arguments put forward by Deputy Haughey and other Deputies about the need for the by-election because when Deputy Noel Browne tried to move the writ for the North Tipperary by-election he was turned down. Deputy Haughey said there was no great need to move the writ at that time, that he was the boss and he would decide when the writ would be moved in Tipperary. He was the boss at that time because he had a majority of 20 in the House. He moved the writ in his own time but he is no longer the boss. I have a say in this matter and I am not ashamed to say that I have. I will decide in the interests of the people who elected me and in the interests of the people outside the House because Kieran Doherty who was elected in Cavan-Monaghan stood on an abstentionist ticket. He was a member of the Provisional IRA who were never great democrats or showed any great interest in upholding democracy in this country. I am very sorry Kieran Doherty died on hunger strike, a most squalid death for anyone and especially for a Member of this House. The people who encouraged him to go on hunger strike, the armchair generals and the politicians on that side of the House who supported the five demands have a lot to account for. We heard very little about that today. There is blood on their hands. Ten people died on hunger strike and many more were killed by guns and bombs. That is more important than the schoolboy talk we have heard today.

There are other important items that should be discussed by this House but we are wasting valuable time in discussing this matter. Employment, peace in the land, taxation equity, matters relating to women and family legislation in general are far more important than what we are discussing now. I will not take any homilies from anybody on that side of the House. I cannot learn anything from them. They are not sincere in what they say. Deputy Wilson spoke about boxing but the only boxing he was ever involved in was boxing the ears of pupils. He cast shame on a boxer whom he mentioned but it is obvious he knew little about that boxer's career——

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order. Every Deputy will have an opportunity to speak if he wishes. The Deputy in possession should be allowed to continue without interruption.

Mr. Kemmy

Deputy Wilson can only shadow-box. As far as I am concerned the matter we are discussing can be left until the New Year. Legislation that is due to come before this House is far more important than moving the writ for Cavan-Monaghan. Unlike Britain and Northern Ireland, it is not a single-seat constituency and the Deputies in that area can carry on the work for their constituents. The people who voted for Kieran Doherty did so in the knowledge that he would abstain from attending this House. He stood as a front for the Provisional IRA and I am not going to withdraw that statement.

I am more concerned to have legislation put through this House that will help the people who are suffering. That legislation is more urgent and important than moving the writ. I am not in any hurry to see the writ moved. There is no great loss to democracy or to the people. I will support the decision of the Government in this matter and I make no apology to anybody.

Mr. Sherlock

In this debate there are very few people left to be convinced of the merits or demerits of holding a by-election at this time. The public are more concerned to ensure that the Government get on with the job. There is an argument going on in this House and valuable time is being wasted but it does not make much difference. Everybody has his mind made up. If there is a need for anything it is to change the procedures in this Assembly and to prevent a situation occurring where hours and hours of valuable time are wasted on empty rhetoric. The debate goes on but nothing changes.

As I have stated publicly on another occasion, I will make an assessment with regard to any matter that arises in this House. To say that a by-election would be a testing point of the Government's performance to date does not carry much weight because not too long ago we had a by-election and shortly afterwards the Government who won that election lost their 20-seat majority. That was an indication of how the people felt and that is what matters. As a Deputy for Sinn Féin the Workers' Party, I say to the honourable journalists who sit here that if they are printing anything they should print the facts and if they have not the facts let them ascertain them before they are put down in print.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. MacSharry

The Deputy is telling the press what to do.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Alderman Dublin Bay-Rockall Loftus

To a great degree this House is responsible for having to face up squarely to this by-election, just as in the past when the parties should have faced up to Partition instead of just condemning the atrocities and pushing it under the carpet. The reason we have to face up to a by-election is that Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour between themselves increased the number of seats in this House from 146 to 166. They appointed a so-called independent commission — I use the term "so-called" because they gave that commission political terms of reference. If they had appointed a genuinely independent commission chaired by a Supreme Court judge and if they had said to that commission, "There is the Constitution. Give us a PR system the public will accept that is removed from the influence of the political parties because we had enough of this gerrymandering in the past" we would not have to face this by-election today. The commission that was appointed was told to take the lower figure of one TD per 20,000 people instead of giving the lead in these hard times and taking a figure of one TD per 30,000 people. If they had done that we would not have to face the by-election now.

I accept the point made by the Taoiseach that it is necessary to get through a legislative programme during this session. It is my view that the people elected to this House cannot address themselves properly to the task if they are involved in a by-election. It is not in the national interest to put off the by-election because as long as it is hanging over us we will not be able to do our job. However, it is not in the national interest to put at risk the Government's legislative programme. I understand the Labour Party have said they will not put up a candidate in the by-election. I say to Fine Gael they should not put up a candidate. They should not fall into the trap of getting caught up in a situation dealing with constitutional and fundamental rights. This is not the time for it. They should concede the seat to Fianna Fáil and get on with the job of putting through the legislative programme. The Government have been in office for a short time and it is too soon to test their policies. If Fine Gael contest the by-election they will find probably that Fianna Fáil will win the seat and that will be used to fight for a general election. This is not the time for a general election. Neither is it the time to abuse the people's fundamental rights in relation to the Constitution which is fundamentally sound. It needs amending but this is not the time to do it. What we have to do is manage our economy. That is what we were elected to do.

An Ceann Comhairle

I understand Deputy Haughey is concluding the debate.

Mr. Haughey

We are persisting with our motion that this writ should be moved. Nothing that has been said in the debate will deter us from doing that. A number of side issues were raised, but the principal argument was the one put forward by the Taoiseach, and that is the one we should deal with. His argument, which can be put very succinctly, is to the effect that the Government have a very important and arduous legislative programme before them, and they should not be prevented from pursuing that legislative programme by the inconvenience of a by-election.

Either we are democrats or we are not. Either we are totally committed to the democratic process and the ballot box or we are not. Democracy is an awkward, inconvenient system. It presents us with many problems and difficulties from time to time. Either we stay with it and its inconveniences and awkwardnesses, or we do not. I do not think the Fine Gael Party, who profess to be totally and fully committed to the democratic process, and who are not above lecturing us from time to time on that process — the supremacy of Parliament and the need to have resort to the ballot box to resolve our difficulties — are entitled on this occasion to put the ballot box and the democratic process into cold storage because it suits them, and because it would be awkward and inconvenient for them not to do so. Because it is relevant to this argument I want to mention the constituency in which this by-election is being held.

The Taoiseach

I am sure the Deputy will develop the question of North Tipperary.

Mr. Haughey

I will, if necessary. I indicated that I was paying the Taoiseach the compliment of saying that his argument was the main argument put forward.

The Taoiseach

Quite right.

Mr. Haughey

That is the one I intend to deal with. If he wants to send me down side roads I will be delighted to follow him, but I would prefer to speak to the main thesis which he put before the House, which I think is the responsible argument with which I have to deal.

The Taoiseach

What the Deputy has just stated is contrary to what he did in North Tipperary.

Mr. Haughey

I want to mention briefly the constituency with which we are concerned, Cavan-Monaghan, in which there are quite a number of people who are not particularly committed to the democratic process or the ballot box. I do not think it is very wise for the Taoiseach and the Government to be cynical about this by-election and to give those people who are not particularly committed to the democratic process an opportunity to say that politicians in Leinster House, as they are wont to refer to us, will resort to the election system and the ballot box only when it suits them, and when it does not suit them they put them into cold storage.

Deputy Dr. Browne has always made a virtue in this House of his consistency. Frequently he has lectured us fairly intensely about his consistency on his principles and his objectives. I do not think he is being consistent because, as he pointed out to us, it was he who moved the writ for the Tipperary by-election. At the time he did that to embarrass and cause inconvenience to the Government. Let us face it. He had no interest whatever in the electorate of North Tipperary at that time. He just wanted to cause problems and difficulties for the Government. If he was so keen then that the by-election should be held, why has he changed his mind now? If the Government's programme is so attractive to him, if it is such a sound programme and such a good reforming programme, why is he afraid to put it before the people in Cavan-Monaghan? If he finds it so beneficial and attractive as a programme, as a good and consistent democrat why does he not favour putting that programme, as outlined for us broadly today, before the electorate?

If the Government and their supporters, the Independents, wish to draw a corollary between this by-election and the North Tipperary by-election, they must recognise that the writ for the North Tipperary by-election was moved in a situation in which everyone knew a general election was imminent. Are we to take it that the Government feel the same situation applies and a general election is just around the corner? If not, they cannot pursue that argument with any degree of consistency.

I want to come now to the Taoiseach's argument about the legislative programme. There is absolutely no reason why the Government's legislative programme should not be continued and why the Dáil should not continue to sit and deal with that legislative programme and, at the same time, have the by-election. That is the basic difference between us and the Government.

Mr. Lenihan

Hear, hear. That is the way it was always done.

Mr. Haughey

I am glad the Minister, Deputy Kelly, is in the House. Another Coalition Government were proud of their legislative programme. They made quite a to-do about the amount of legislation they got through as a Coalition Government. The Minister, Deputy Kelly, was probably the man responsible for bringing out a booklet outlining all the legislation they passed as a Coalition Government. They did not run away from by-elections. Quite a number of by-elections were held during the tenure of office of that Coalition Government. On their own say so, they still got through a very substantial legislative programme.

Mr. Kelly

It came virtually to a halt during the by-elections. I remember what happened. The legislative programme came to a halt.

Mr. Haughey

The by-elections were held as they came up. The facts are there. They may be awkward. Like by-elections and the democratic process, they may be awkward and inconvenient for the Government but the facts are there.

The Taoiseach

Like North Tipperary.

Mr. Haughey

They boasted about the very heavy legislative programme they put through, but every by-election which came up was held during that time. Surely they must see the absurdity of their argument that, because there is a programme of work to be got through, we cannot have a by-election. In that case we would never have a by-election. When do they intend to hold it? In January? Deputy Kemmy says it should be put back to the new year. In the new year we will have the budget and financial business. Will we hold it then in the middle of the budget and the financial business?

Mr. Harte

The Deputy might not be too anxious to have it then.

Mr. Gene Fitzgerald

The Deputy might not either.

Mr. Haughey

If we accepted that argument, a by-election would never be held because the Government would always find some good Dáil procedural or legislative reason for not holding it. It is a very dangerous argument to slip into. On reflection the Government should abandon it. There is absolutely no reason why the House should not continue to sit and why the legislative programme should not be carried on. There is absolutely no reason why any Member of this House who is required to be here for the business of the House should be involved in the by-election.

Mr. Kelly

That is a completely insincere argument.

Mr. Haughey

It is the Government's own decision. If votes are called we will have to be here to vote just the same as the Government. It is the Government's decision as to how many people they send into the by-election campaign, Ministers, Junior Ministers, or whatever. It is their decision. If they want to carry on the business of the House, there is nothing to prevent them doing so. We will facilitate them right through the by-election in carrying on with their legislative programme.

I shall not delay the House much longer except to make again the fundamentally important point that the democratic process is one to which we are committed. It does involve by-elections as they arise. I believe that even though a by-election may be inconvenient or awkward for any of us we have a solemn parliamentary, democratic duty to hold by-elections as and when they arise. I do not believe the Government are justified in advancing this legislative programme of theirs as an excuse for not coming before the people of Cavan-Monaghan.

There is one further point I want to make, which is that this by-election is being held in somewhat unusual circumstances, apart from the very tragic circumstances which have caused it. This Government are now putting before the people programmes and policies, economic and constitutional, which were not put before them in the general election. If they have the respect for the democratic process which they purport to have — and which I believe they have fundamentally — then they will see that it is their duty to avail of this opportunity to put these policies and programmes to the test because many of them were not put forward for consideration by the people in the general election. We are pressing for this by-election because we believe the democratic process demands that it should be held. I want to tell the House this: if we are voted down on this occasion with the assistance of these impartial, objective, neutral Independents——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Haughey

——and, talking about the impartially and neutrality of the Independents, I want to read something from The Irish Times of 19 October 1981 in which a distinguished political correspondent reported as follows:

Dr. FitzGerald confided in some of us of late his belief that, however strongly they may feel about the Government's handling of affairs, neither the Coalition's backbenchers nor the people from the smaller parties would be prepared to commit political suicide by precipitating an early election in which they risked losing their seats.

Mr. Reynolds

The whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Mr. Haughey

Did the Taoiseach say that to the political correspondent of The Irish Times or did he not? It would be very interesting to get his reply to that. But whether or not they vote us down on this occasion we shall immediately put this motion down again, we will keep it on the Order Paper, ask them to vote on it and keep on voting on it until such time as we drag them kicking and squealing before the electorate.

Mr. Harte

I do not think there are a lot of people up there who really want an election.

Mr. Haughey

Put it to the test.

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 78; Níl, 80.

Tá

• Acheson, Carrie.
• Ahern, Bertie.
• Alderman Dublin Bay-Rockall Loftus,
• Sean D.
• Allen, Lorcan.
• Andrews, David.
• Andrews, Niall.
• Aylward, Liam.
• Barrett, Michael.
• Barrett, Sylvester.
• Brady, Gerard.
• Brady, Vincent.
• Brennan, Paudge.
• Brennan, Seamus.
• Briscoe, Ben.
• Burke, Raphael P.
• Byrne, Hugh. (Wexford).
• Callanan, John.
• Fitzsimons, Jim.
• Flynn, Pádraig.
• Foley, Denis.
• French, Seán.
• Gallagher, Denis.
• Gallagher, Pat Cope.
• Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
• Harney, Mary.
• Haughey, Charles J.
• Joyce, Carey.
• Keegan, Seán.
• Kenneally, William.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Lemass, Eileen.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Leyden, Terry.
• Loughnane, William.
• Lyons, Denis.
• McCarthy, Seán.
• McCreevy, Charlie.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• Calleary, Seán.
• Clohessy, Peadar.
• Colley, George.
• Collins, Gerard.
• Conaghan, Hugh.
• Connolly, Gerard.
• Coughlan, Clement.
• Cowen, Bernard.
• Crowley, Flor.
• Daly, Brendan.
• Doherty, Seán.
• Ellis, John.
• Fahey, Jackie.
• Faulkner, Pádraig.
• Filgate, Eddie.
• Fitzgerald, Gene.
• Fitzgerald, Liam.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin South-Central).
• MacSharry, Ray.
• Meaney, Tom.
• Molloy, Robert.
• Moore, Seán
• Morley, P.J.
• Murphy, Ciarán P.
• Nolan, Tom.
• Noonan, Michael J.
• (Limerick West).
• O'Donoghue, Martin.
• O'Hanlon, Rory.
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Malley, Desmond.
• Power, Paddy.
• Reynolds, Albert.
• Sherlock, Joe.
• Smith, Michael.
• Tunney, Jim.
• Walsh, Seán.
• Wilson, John P.
• Woods, Michael J.
• Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

• Allen, Bernard.
• Barrett, Seán.
• Barry, Myra.
• Barry, Peter.
• Begley, Michael.
• Bermingham, Joseph.
• Birmingham, George.
• Boland, John.
• Browne, Noël.
• Bruton, John.
• Burke, Dick.
• Burke, Liam.
• Byrne, Hugh. (Dublin North. West).
• Collins, Edward.
• Conlon, John F.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Connor, John.
• Cooney, Patrick M.
• Corish, Brendan.
• Cosgrave, Liam T.
• Cosgrave, Michael J.
• Coveney, Hugh.
• Creed, Donal.
• Crotty, Kieran.
• Crowley, Frank.
• D'Arcy, Michael J.
• Deasy, Martin A.
• Desmond, Eileen.
• Donnellan, John F.
• Dukes, Alan M.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• Enright, Thomas W.
• Farrelly, John V.
• Fennell, Nuala.
• Fitzgerald, Garret.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Cavan-Monaghan).
• Flaherty, Mary.
• Taylor, Mervyn.
• Timmins, Godfrey.
• Treacy, Séan.
• Flanagan, Oliver J.
• Fleming, Brian.
• Glenn, Alice.
• Governey, Desmond.
• Griffin, Brendan.
• Harte, Patrick D.
• Hegarty, Paddy.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Kavanagh, Liam.
• Keating, Michael.
• Kelly, John.
• Kemmy, Jim.
• Kenny, Enda.
• L'Estrange, Gerry.
• McCartin, John J.
• McMahon, Larry.
• Markey, Bernard.
• Mitchell, Gay.
• Mitchell, Jim.
• Molony, David.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Nealon, Ted.
• Noonan, Michael.
• (Limerick East).
• O'Brien, Fergus.
• O'Brien, William.
• O'Donnell, Tom.
• O'Keeffe, Jim.
• O'Sullivan, Toddy.
• O'Toole, Paddy.
• Owen, Nora.
• Pattison, Séamus.
• Ryan, John J.
• Ryan, Richie.
• Shatter, Alan.
• Sheehan, Patrick J.
• Spring, Dick.
• Taylor, Madeleine.
• Tully, James.
• White, James.
• Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Moore and Briscoe; Níl, Deputies L'Estrange and Mervyn Taylor.

Motion declared lost.