Deputy George Birmingham has four minutes remaining.
Private Members' Business. - Crime and Vandalism in Dublin: Motion (Resumed).
The following motion was moved by Deputy J. Mitchell on Tuesday, 4 May 1982:
That Dáil Éireann, recognising the appalling level of crime and vandalism, declares a crime emergency in the Dublin Metropolitan area, and calls for all reasonable steps to be taken urgently, to bring the situation under control, including the reform of the law and the expansion and re-organisation of the Gardaí as rapidly as possible including the consideration of establishing a Dublin Garda Reserve.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete the following:
(i) ", declares a crime emergency" after "vandalism",
(ii) the word "and" after "area,", and
(iii) all words after "possible".
—(Minister for Justice).
I spoke last night about what I saw as the inadequacies in our legal system and the deficiencies it presents to the Garda. I now wish to speak about the recruitment of gardaí. The picture presented yesterday by the Minister, while a rosy one, bore little relationship to reality and most certainly was not recognisable as the same picture as was drawn by Fianna Fáil in their advertisements before the last election. The House will recall with interest the glossy newspaper advertisements that promised 2,000 extra gardaí. The public were led to believe that, given the arrival of the Fianna Fáil Government, they could expect these extra gardaí on the streets within a matter of weeks. Instead we have seen simply the continuation of the course of action first set in motion by the Coalition but with the qualification that in order to give the appearance of action they have set aside in-service training and the greater efficiency of the Garda is being impeded as a result.
The problem will not be solved simply by recruiting more gardaí. Their effectiveness depends not just on better equipment, more computers and more radios, but more than anything else on the degree of support they receive from the community. Every Member knows that there are now areas of this city where gardaí no longer receive the respect that was once the norm. If that is to be reversed I should like to see from the Minister and the Commissioner a commitment to a greater role in community policing by the Garda.
Specifically, I should like the Minister to put at rest the fears of some senior Garda officers that there is within the Department of Justice a suggestion that the juvenile liaison officer scheme should be taken from the Garda and given to the probation service or somewhere else. There is a very strong feeling within the Garda that it is right and proper that they should be seen to be available to help young offenders instead of always having to bring people to court. They are very concerned at rumours that they are to lose out on this. The Minister could do himself and the force a favour by scotching that suggestion.
I would also ask the Minister to look at the situation which now exists in some British cities where in trouble spots police officers run political-style clinics where designated members of the force are available on a one-to-one basis to discuss problems with the public in the hope of establishing a relationship.
The problem of crime in this city will not be solved simply by putting more people in uniform or in plain clothes, although of course that is necessary. We must ensure that these people are as effective as possible. This means greater in-force training and consideration of a cadet college and also seeing that the force is properly equipped. I welcome the Minister's commitment that the proposals put forward by his predecessor will be honoured. We must also do everything politically possible to ensure that the Garda receive maximum support from the community in which they must work. I urge the Minister as strongly as possible to commit himself to that as a course of action.
I am so angry at the whole situation that I will be endeavouring to keep my language temperate. I am fed up with so many of the excuses that have been provided for vandalism and mugging — the social conditions, the deprived areas. I wish to make it clear that deprived people do not have a monopoly on crime. The people who are committing crimes are coming from homes where there is plenty of food and in many instances a good income. Most people in this country have come from deprived backgrounds but they have not turned to crime as a means of livelihood. Nowadays there is no financial hardship in unemployment as there was many years ago when we did not have the money to pay dole and a family often knew what hunger was.
The Minister must strengthen the law and make the necessary changes to deal with some of these evil people who are daily murdering elderly people by degrees. I have just read a report in today's Evening Press of two brothers in their late seventies who were terrorised by cudgel-wielding thugs who raided their farmhouse home last night and left them tied up in the dark. There are many such instances. I have received reports in my constituency of people who have died within six or eight weeks of being mugged or robbed.
I attended a meeting of 500 or more residents in Rialto and heard an 85-year-old lady in tears saying that her grand-daughter had taken her as a birthday treat to see Maureen Potter at the Gaiety Theatre and on the way home her grand-daughter was robbed by two hoodlums and kicked while she called to her grand-mother to save her. I am sick listening to the awful things that are happening on our streets day and night. We are all sick when we hear of a 16-year-old girl being attacked in O'Connell Street while members of the public did nothing to help. They probably thought it was a fight between itinerant children and did not think that it might have been their son or daughter who was being attacked. I am told that women should not drive over Herberton Bridge after 7 o'clock because the chances are that someone with an iron bar will break the window of their car.
I was seeking changes in the law long before the last Government came into office. The first change I sought was in relation to bail and this was mentioned last night by both Deputy Mitchell and the Minister for Justice. Successive sentences should be imposed on those committing crimes. I want to see the age of criminal responsibility raised to 12, provided parents are held responsible for the crimes of their children. If that parent is unemployed, let 10 per cent of his social welfare payments be deducted so that victims of crime can be compensated. Young hooligans must pay back the people against whom they have committed crimes. Very often the Garda know who these people are but the difficulty is in gaining sufficient evidence to make an arrest. When such a person is apprehended and found guilty he should be made to pay back the State, who have paid compensation for the malicious damage, at the rate of 10 per cent of his income, whether he is at work or in receipt of social welfare payments. A person who burns down a building valued at £1 million should have 10 per cent of his income deducted for the rest of his life. This is the only way to produce a real effect.
I received today a letter from Saint Peter's Road, Greenhills, Dublin 12 which states:
I wish to draw your attention to the very grave problem we have with vandalism, crime, etc. in our area of Greenhills. Especially on the St. Peters Road area around the shopping centre and the few blocks of houses either side of the shops, the three blocks of houses which is St. Peter's Tce. where we live and across the road opposite the shops — this is the worst hit areas.
The teenagers here are out of their minds altogether and destruction seems to be their main aim. They are wild with drink and we suspect drugs.
They smash cars. Our own two cars have been damaged — one badly, which we sent in to Dublin Co. Council as a malicious damage claim. They break householders windows for no reason except getting kicks from it or dares from friends. Both our neighbours windows have been put through. The latest craze is cars travelling the road after 7 p.m. They now throw bottles at them — some cars have been damaged and windows smashed. Just as the drivers would get out the crowd would start to close in on them so they have to drive off frightened and scared. The road and pathways are strewn with glass. They rob cars and drive them around the roads and back lanes into the early hours of the morning.
The shop windows and shutters are pulled down and smashed and they break into shops, houses and garages. The latest was the Telephone box, ripped right out of the ground by hooligans driving around in a van, possibly stolen, and they were not satisfied until they had it completely demolished and used the bits as missiles to throw at passing cars. This carry on starts most nights, dry or wet, from 7 p.m. to well after midnight especially at the weekends. They pull up trees and disconnect our lights on the road.
Crumlin Garda cover this area and have to take in as far back as Harolds Cross — Crumlin and Walkinstown and Greenhills. They have not got enough staff to give us the foot and car patrol we certainly need. Could you please have a Guard Station fully staffed and complete with cars, van and motor bike and enough staff set up for us at Greenhills before its to late.
Here is the most important sentence in the letter:
The people up here are at the end of their wits and if something is not done quickly the law will be taken into our own hands. In the meantime please increase the manpower at Crumlin Station and give them more cars.
The savings on the Government Dept. on malicious damage claims, Cleansing Dept. Lighting Dept. Trees Dept. etc. plus payments out of people's own pockets will more than cover that of a Garda Station and Guards here in the Greenhills area.
The letter was signed by a few people. In another part of Crumlin some nights ago a Garda car was rammed. A resident of the area told me that on three occasions her husband had to jump over the railings to avoid being knocked down by a car that was driven at him. Last evening Deputy Mitchell mentioned that many parents say they cannot control their children and that they do not know what to do with them. I do not know where we should put them but I know that people are entitled to protection.
Something else is happening and we do not seem to know much about it. When old people in their seventies or eighties are attacked very often they go senile almost immediately afterwards. A son may come home and find his mother or father talking gibberish and not knowing who he is. This is due to delayed shock. A few days ago a girl telephoned me to tell me about two old friends of hers who were robbed while they sat in their house. The old lady and her invalid husband had to sit there while young, heartless hooligans robbed them.
The newspaper Southside Express in its leading article referred to my ideas as being Victorian. Is it Victorian to be compassionate? If I get upset or emotional it is because of the compassion I feel not just for the old but for the very young. Recently I was talking to a friend of mine, Paddy Cullen, the former goalkeeper for Dublin, who was training in the Phoenix Park. He told me how a 12-year-old boy was cycling through the park quite innocently when he was set upon by 30 young thugs who beat the living daylights out of him. If it were not for the fact that the boy was brought to hospital very quickly he might have died. He was in a horrible mess. Some of those thugs are like little savages. What do we say? We say, “Its the system, its the poverty”. We have probably one of the most homogeneous societies of any country. We have not the kind of problems that exist in the United States or Britain where there are so many different nationalities and where there is the friction that can create race riots. We have a nice little compact society and there is no excuse for that conduct here. The only reason why it is happening is that we have not the guts to stand up and face whatever hostile publicity we may get from some of the do-gooders who write articles in the newspapers until they are attacked themselves. This happened some time ago to a journalist on one of the newspapers and, as she said in a subsequent article, all her liberal views were changed as a result of what happened to her. Old people are afraid to go to sleep at night. If they hear the slightest sound they become wide awake. They are living in absolute terror.
The type of crime I have been describing is referred to as "petty" crime although I do not consider it petty. Armed robbery is regarded as a serious crime. I ask the Minister to consider bringing in a mandatory sentence of five years for anyone who is found with a gun in his possession and who has a criminal record, and I emphasise that. That would make them think twice before going out with a gun. The young hooligans I spoke about a few minutes ago are the gunmen of tomorrow. Many of the gunmen in our city today were the young hooligans and thugs of yesterday.
I have heard criticism of Loughan House and the fact that it costs £28,000 to keep a youngster there. Do people who make this criticism realise that there is not one child there who has not caused a minimum of £100,000 damage? The State is well on the credit side in this instance.
We should have some kind of an arrangement to send those youngsters to farms. When I was 12 years of age I went to a farm in Cavan. I worked hard: I cut turf, helped with the harvest and did many jobs. I brought in the hay single-handed when I was 12 years with the aid of the old hay shifter. It was hard work but I loved it. I would put some of these young people doing this kind of work. Instead of having the reserve force that Deputy Mitchell spoke about, I would have 100 military type policemen who would arrest these fellows when they abscond and they would get an additional month's sentence. They would work hard, get plenty of plain food but not televison in the evening. It is not a holiday camp. I would get them out into the fresh air because most of them are stunted from lack of nourishment. Many of these hard core young criminals have parents who are also criminals. It is a cycle which never seems to break, as I know because I have done a lot of research into this problem.
About 70 per cent of the homes in the Crumlin area of my constituency have been broken into, some of them three, four and five times. The provisional figures for 1981 given by the Minister cannot show the number of petty crimes that have not been reported because many people know that they are wasting their time reporting them.
I was talking to a Garda inspector not long ago and he told me he had been congratulating himself because a well-known young gangster had been given three months. After two weeks he saw him back on the streets. He asked the young criminal why he was on the streets and he was told that there was not enough room for him in the prisons and he was freed. I will give the Minister that person's name and I want to know why this chronic crook who caused misery to hundreds of people was released. Many old people in my constituency are afraid to go out even to the community centre for fear their handbags would be snatched or that their homes might be robbed while they are out. This is reality. If we do not do something to change the law the public will take the law into their own hands. Once that happens we can forget about law and order.
I am known as a law and order man. I believe in law and order. At present we have a lot of law but no order. I want to see justice being done. It is not being done at present. There is too much emphasis on rehabilitation. I am in favour of rehabilitation if it comes right, but it can only come right through punishment. If any of our children gets out of hand most of us will give them a damn good hiding and that is the end of the problem. But there are many parents who are too selfish and too wrapped up in their own lives. They drink and smoke too much and then wonder why their children are going out night after night, ending up on drugs.
I believe gardaí will be going into schools shortly to encourage children not to take drugs. We must educate the teachers to be vigilant so that they will recognise signs of drug taking. I was at a public meeting in Crumlin a couple of months ago and there were about 200 people there, including 60 or 70 schoolchildren. A gentleman from Coolmines was talking to a reformed drug addict. He asked the children how many of them were aware of drug-taking in their schools. About 80 per cent put up their hands. Drug-taking in our schools is widespread and we have to do something about it. Our teachers must be aware of what is going on. There should be referral agencies where parents can go if there is a drug problem in their homes. The Health Education Bureau said they were delighted when we first asked them to undertake this work last May or June.
The Deputy has three minutes left.
I have agreed to give Deputy De Rossa six minutes. No area of Dublin has a monopoly on crime. Foxrock has its crime problem, as has Crumlin and the inner city. Every part of Dublin and even the country has a crime problem, as can be seen from our newspapers. I want to see known drug-pushers apprehended. We know who they are and we know all about them. I asked the Minister to consider seriously the suggestion made by Deputy J. Mitchell last night about the majority jury verdict because this is very important.
Let us not just talk figures and recruitment. Every time a policeman makes an arrest that is another policeman off the street. We must streamline the system so that we can apprehend this small core of known hooligans. It is the same small core who are committing these crimes — five or six in each area, and when they are added together they do not come to even 1 per cent of all the young people who are doing magnificent work. There are many other things I would like to say but I will make way for Deputy De Rossa. I plead with the Minister to hammer some of these young hooligans who are making life miserable for so many people before the people take the law into their own hands.
Neither the Fine Gael motion nor the Government amendment makes any attempt to come to grips with the underlying causes of the crime and vandalism complained of in the motion. Simply calling for a greater number of police is not an answer, nor is the declaration of a crime emergency, which in my view is an over-reaction to a situation which is bad but does not require such drastic measures. What is the purpose of declaring such an emergency? Is it to allow the introduction of emergency legislation to provide the Garda with an arbitrary increase in police powers? If not, then such a declaration is mere window dressing and an excuse for doing nothing.
Let us look at the question of policing, police numbers and increased powers. Over the past ten years the number of gardaí has doubled and the gardaí have been provided with increased technical resources, such as the new forensic science laboratory. But, despite this, there has been an overall increase in the volume of crime and, while there has been an increase in the number of convictions, the actual conviction rate has fallen. This is not to argue against providing gardaí with the most up-to-date training and technical equipment, but I believe it shows that it is too simplistic to say that increased police numbers by themselves will automatically reduce the rate of crime.
On the question of police powers I would point out that the Garda have considerable powers of arrest at present. Indeed, in the Dublin area they have greater powers than in any other part of the country under the Dublin Police Act, under which they have wide and sweeping powers of arrest without warrant. The Garda can arrest for a breach of the peace or if they have reasonable suspicion of a felony being committed. Under section 30 of the Offences Against the State Act they can arrest and hold for up to 48 hours without a warrant for any offence under that Act. They can arrest for an offence under the Firearms Act, for any offence under the Explosives Substances Act, under the Malicious Damages Act, and for any offence under the Conspiracies and Protection of Property Act which, incidentally, was brought in originally to deal with trade unionism. They also have wide powers under the Misuse of Drugs Act and, of course, the Traffic Acts. In my view, the powers of the Garda are quite adequate to arrest people of whom they have reasonable suspicion of having committed a crime.
What the Garda seem to be looking for, and what both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil appear to want to give the Garda, is the power to arrest simply on suspicion — there is no mention whatsoever of a reasonable suspicion — and to allow the Garda to hold such persons for six hours and in some cases for up to 24 hours for questioning. To my mind this is an attempt to abolish the rule which requires the Garda to bring arrested persons before a court without delay. They are seeking these powers despite the fact that the great bulk of people appearing in court make self-incriminating statements and that the bulk of such convictions are on such confessions.
This is not a satisfactory situation because, if further and greater powers are given to the Garda, there will be no incentive for the Garda to search for independent evidence to prove guilt and they will rely more and more on self-incriminatory statements made by suspects in custody. If you combine the disincentive to find independent evidence with allowing the Garda to arrest on the merest suspicion, and not a reasonable suspicion, you have a recipe for a breakdown in confidence in the Garda which the people have despite what I said about the over-reaction of the Fine Gael people in calling for an emergency. You will also have a return to the 1976 situation when allegations of heavy gangs and brutality followed the then Coalition's emergency legislation providing for seven-day detention.
There must be a balance of interest between the individual's right to liberty and freedom from arbitrary arrest and the interest of society to protect itself. The trend of the demand at present for greater police powers and changes in the law tips the balance against the citizen's right to liberty and could lead ultimately to a far greater breakdown in law enforcement than we are faced with now. I mentioned earlier that I felt that talk about changing the law and increasing police numbers was a simplistic approach to a very complex question.
The increase in crime arises first from the fact that we have an increasing population and a very high number of young people in that population. It is interesting to note that the bulk of convicted persons are under 21 years of age. A second element is the fact that Irish society is undergoing severe and rapid change from a largely rural society to an urbanised society. That brings all kinds of difficulties, stresses and strains. It is also clear from studying those convicted of the bulk of crime that unemployment, denial of educational opportunities and our decaying cities are strong elements in the causes of crime.
One expert who has observed the operation of our juvenile courts has stated that invariably there are three elements common to most persons who come before the court. The three elements are: (1) they are generally functionally illiterate, (2), they are poorly educated and, (3), they themselves or their families are dependent on social welfare. Therefore, the Government would be foolish to embark on a programme of simply strengthening the law and increasing the numbers of Garda without, at the same time, making a serious attempt to come to grips with the problems of job creation, the provision of leisure facilities and the provision of adequate workers for the training and education of our youth.
I should like to refer first to Deputy De Rossa's interpretation of the motion. His speech was concerned mainly with the powers of the Garda. The motion does not refer in any way to the powers of the Garda. It reads:
That Dáil Éireann, recognising the appalling level of crime and vandalism, declares a crime emergency in the Dublin Metropolitan area, and calls for all reasonable steps to be taken urgently, to bring the situation under control, including the reform of the law and the expansion and re-organisation of the Gardaí as rapidly as possible including the consideration of establishing a Dublin Garda Reserve.
There is no doubt that the general level of crime is upwards. The evidence is in the statistics and in all our newspapers. When one reads the daily newspapers one can see clearly that the social fabric of our society is weakening and causing great anxiety and fear. From one's own experience, and the experience of one's friends and neighbours, one can see that there is cause for alarm. Yesterday as I walked from Leinster House to O'Connell Street I saw four smashed windows. Last weekend in my home town of Fermoy, which has a population of 4,000, the premises of three chemists were broken into on Saturday night. I heard a story at the weekend about a man of 80 whose home was broken into and he was attacked by an unknown person. This surely is a cause for alarm.
The quality of life of our citizens can be seen in the crime rate. If the crime rate is high, there is a pervading atmosphere of fear and anxiety. We are right to be concerned about this important issue. If one asks what has gone wrong and what is the solution, one gets many and varied solutions. There is no simple solution because it is not a simple problem. The causes are complex and the solutions will have to be complex.
Among the many causes I number first the human factor resulting from the changing society in which we live. We have a materialistic society now. The emphasis is on mé féin. The question is: What is in it for me? We have a much more pressurised society than we had in the past. This has resulted in frustrations and tensions and increased pressures which have to be released in some way. If they are not released in healthy or sporting behaviour, they will be released in vandalism and crime. There is an onus on us to provide more sporting facilities and amenities for our people. Prevention is better than cure. With so much aggression within one, if it cannot be released on a playing pitch, then it will be released on a window, a car or on a person.
There is clear evidence also that social conditions in homes or in certain areas generally result in lots of young people being brought up as potential offenders. The solution we have at present is to lock them away, which is no solution at all. Locking people away in Loughan House, where there are at present 20 young criminals each costing £28,000 a year, does not constitute a solution because inevitably when they are released they are back to square one. It is my honest belief that if one locks 16 or 17 fifteen-year-olds away together one is only breeding crime. What happens in a place such as Loughan House where there are 20 young people together, all of the same age group? With the same interests, subject to peer pressures, they become even more expert at crime and its various methods. I found there were two young boys there from Cork whose case history was this: one belonged to a family of 20 and his mother was alive. The other boy belonged to a family of six and his father was alive. The mother and father were cohabiting. Those two children are in Loughan House and there are two more expected in this family of 26 before too long. If we do not do something about social conditions which are allowing the problem to fester then it can be contended that the people of this nation are not deserving of a solution. The question of a just society or social justice is one that enters into every area, not just that of the Minister for Justice. Until we seriously begin to tackle the problem, not merely in terms of providing money but by way of attitudes and concern, then there can be no real solution found to the problem because we are only creating further problems for ourselves.
I heard a story yesterday of five young children, aged five years, in O'Connell Street who had robbed a few handbags in a restaurant. When gardaí caught the children and asked them what they were doing the children cried "My mammy, my mammy". When they asked "Where is your mammy" they replied. "My mammy has gone out". When asked where was their daddy they replied "He is in". When the garda asked them "In where" they replied "In jail". These are the conditions these young children are subjected to. The Garda cannot solve the problem alone. Parents must be responsible for their own children. Until discipline is enforced — which seems to be a dying art — what can one expect of such children? At least the parents should be there to guide their children, oversee what they are doing or where they are. This attitude of allowing children to run around all over the place with nobody being responsible for them creates havoc.
Another reason advanced for our present crime rate, I believe justifiably, is that of unemployment. If people cannot get a job — there are now 148,000 such people in this country — naturally enough a lot of them become demoralised, frustrated and extremely bored. If they are so utterly bored that they must look for a kick somewhere it would appear that a lot of them seek it through committing crime. The way they look at it is that if they cannot get a job they might as well be employed as criminals, that will at least provide them with some little excitement in their lives. Furthermore the problem is aggravated by having now something we have not experienced before, that is of having two generations of unemployed people in the one household. Traditionally our safety valve was that of emigration, whenever our unemployment situation reached intolerable levels people emigrated, thereby saving us the experience of having a father and son unemployed in any one home. Now with practically all emigration outlets closed to us — no longer can we turn to England where they have a major unemployment problem; it is almost impossible to gain entry to Australia, and there is a chance for professional people in Canada — for the first time in the history of this State the problem is ours. We must seek solutions to our unemployment problem. If we cannot reach a solution, at which we all seem to be failing miserably, then the onus is on us to share the workload of the nation between all the people of the nation. This might involve such considerations as a four-day week, for why should 90 per cent of the population be entitled to work with 10 per cent without any hope of ever getting a job? We must accept the responsibility of seeing ourselves as all being equal and entitled to our fair share.
The attitude to crime seems to have changed dramatically also in that people seem more sympathetic to the offender rather than the victim. I say this particularly in the case of older people. This is the Year of the Aged. We have all heard of stories of old people being battered, their homes being broken into, being robbed and so on. This creates enormous fears and feelings of insecurity in old people rendering their latter years hardly worth living. On the other hand, the offender in many cases seems to get off rather lightly. An offence such as that against an elderly person should be viewed and punished very severely indeed. Indeed the general attitude of the Irish public to crime seems to be that the only fool in Irish society is the person who gets caught; once one does not get caught one is regarded as a hero, nobody takes any notice and one can do as one likes. That is a very negative attitude and illustrates that our standards are ambiguous. There is one set of criteria for judging one person and another set for judging yet another person. We must all stand up and take a more honest look at our attitude towards crime, whether it be robbery, car smashing, prostitution, whatever vandalism it may be we are talking about. Then we must ask ourselves the big question: seeing that we have this major problem who is to blame? We all like to blame somebody else, be it the system, politicians, the Garda or whoever; it is always somebody else but never ourselves. It would be very unfair of us to blame the Garda who have done an excellent job in this country over the years and have endeavoured at all times to combat and prevent crime and vandalism. Generally they care and are concerned about the level of crime and vandalism. But do we, as a people, really care about the level of crime and vandalism? For example, when one walks down a street and sees somebody being kicked does one take any notice or do anything about it? The onus is on each and everyone of us not alone to be concerned about keeping the law but also to stand up and back up people when we see that law being broken. Recently there was a child sniffing glue down in O'Connell Street. Somebody came along and bashed up that child. Three or four passers-by walked past without even turning their heads. If this is the general attitude towards crime there is little hope of finding any real solution. So, when one is asked who is to blame one can say the three million people in the country.
This is a complex problem and the solutions are complex but one of the solutions would be a change in our attitude towards the whole area of law and order. Effective law enforcement depends on the community; the Garda on their own cannot do it. I believe the task is too important to be left to the police alone. This is why Deputy Mitchell has suggested a Garda reserve. In the past you did not need a Garda reserve because you had a natural Garda reserve around you. The people had confidence in and co-operated with the police. The people are now blasé, lackadaisical and passive and to a large extent preoccupied with themselves. If they will not do something on their own initiative then you must appeal to those who will do it on a voluntary basis.
With such a small population of 3.5 million and with money so badly needed, while we know or hope that more gardaí will be recruited in the very near future we cannot invest the whole of the nation's money in the Department of Justice. Last year every garda cost the State on average £13,000. When one considers this one sees the need for a voluntary group who would form a reserve and undertake such duties as traffic control or street patrolling with policemen or perhaps answer phones or perform some clerical work. If this help is available to be tapped on a voluntary basis is there need for the State to put unnecessary money into providing it? We tend to become a very State-dependent people; some think they must get everything from the State and that it must be free. They do not like to have to pay for something with their own money. Any more encouragement towards dependence on the State would be a step in the wrong direction. The State cannot afford it when its resources are consumed in providing services, handouts and so on. Why not tap this resource that is available and get the community involved as they should be in upholding the law?
In a city like Dublin, where almost one-third of the population reside, it has become in recent years almost as one sees on films and television, a concrete jungle. When you have a concrete jungle there is lack of space, of facilities and of amenities. There is little room to vent aggression and anger and other emotions safely. When people live in such a tight community you will have more crime than in a rural community.
I remember attending a prisoners' rights meeting where one lad told me he had been in jail from the time he was 19 until he was 29. He had been in and out during that period and he was then 30 and this was the longest period he had been out of jail — one year. I asked what motivated him towards crime. He said the reason was that he was brought up in Sean MacDermott Street where the people never had any property and never would have. They hated property and resented other people having it and were bitter with them. He said it was different with me, that I was brought up in a rural community in a small town and was taught to respect neighbours and neighbours' property. His way of life was the result of the situation in which he found himself. He said: "I cannot tell you that I will not be up in Mountjoy again in six months' time — I hope not." It seemed to me a disease like that of an alcoholic or a chronic smoker being dealt with one day at a time. I felt that was a very sad situation.
It seems that 90 per cent of crime is against property and 10 per cent against people. There is a more tolerant attitude growing in our society towards crime against property — perhaps because we are more materialistic and have more material goods than ever before and we do not appreciate them so much. If crime is to decrease our attitude to crime aginst property must become unequivoval. We must decide whether crime against property is a serious crime or whether we need not worry so long as our own cars or houses or windows are not involved.
Discipline in our society generally has been eroded over many years. The Minister or the Department of Justice cannot be blamed for that; I blame all of us. It is much easier to spoil a child than to discipline a child. We like to think we are a liberal society and, if we are, that we must give the children what they want and let them do as they wish and never say no. I thought this was a great idea when I was a teacher trainee, but when I became a teacher I found it was much easier to be lax with the children and let them do as they wished and learn if they would and much harder on the individual to discipline them. The only reason you discipline anybody is for his own good in the long run. We should bring the disciplinary code back into all sections of our society, not only for children but into the world of work where unpunctuality, absenteeism and so on have become major problems. That should be the message to our whole society.
I would urge the Minister for Justice to treat this as a serious problem. Crime levels are important because safety on our streets and in our homes is a hallmark of the quality of life. Let it not be said of the Minister that he was responsible for a deterioration in the quality of Irish life.
The previous speaker is right in saying that this is a serious problem. The committee set up by Dublin Corporation to study the level of lawlessness and vandalism in the city showed that the cost of vandalism to the city in 1981 was £4 million. Probably that only covered the claims that were put forward: we do not know of the others. That was a staggering sum of money for one year and and great use could have been made of it. I heard some of the previous speakers talk about the causes of crime and vandalism. It is a mistake to think that these are peculiar to deprived areas of the city. That is not so. The studies to which I refer proved that there is as much lawlessness and vandalism in Foxrock, Blackrock and elsewhere as in the centre city and the deprived areas. It is well to kill that myth at the outset. The whole swing of society in recent years seems to be in favour of those who commit crime rather than towards those against whom the crimes are committed. It is time that society considered the victim rather than the criminal.
One of the failures in this matter which I see is that everybody seems to be rushing to the aid of the person who committed the crime rather than to the victim. We should think of the victim. It is a sad state of affairs that in this city we have what is commonly known as "no go" areas and it is not safe even for the police to go into them. There has been a lot of talk about a reserve police force but I believe the police force we have is adequate if the public give them the support they are entitled to.
There has been a serious drop in recruitment to the Garda during the past year. The level of recruitment during the past year was approximately 125 gardaí. That is not sufficient to cope with the normal everyday wastage in the force. The new Minister for Justice expects to have 600 to 800 gardaí on the beat within the next 12 months. The answer to the problem is more gardaí and more foot patrols throughout the city and throughout the country. I know what the problem is in Dublin. There is no use saying that anybody has escaped it.
The courts should be stiffer in their dealings with people who commit crimes. There are too many do-gooders going around talking about the background of the people who commit crime. Years ago people had the same problems as those people and they were not as affluent as people are today but those problems were not as common as they are today. I blame the judges for their leniency in regard to the people who commit those crimes. The bail question should be looked into because people who are being let out on bail are committing the same crimes while they are on bail. All those matters will have to be examined.
People should have respect for the Garda. This has been dwindling in recent years. Squad cars are not the answer because they cover only a larger area every couple of hours and the police presence is missing. There must be a police presence on our streets in our cities and suburban areas. It is important that our police force work among the communities in the different areas in which they live.
There has been a lot of talk about Loughan House. I make no apology for saying that there is not a sufficient number of Loughan Houses into which to put those young people who commit crime. This would cut down the rate of crime. The public are waiting for the Government to be seen to act responsibly. The law and order question was a very common issue during the recent election campaign. It was nearly as prominent as jobs and the economic situation. I found in canvassing from door to door that people were very worried about law and order and some were terrified. They locked their doors at night and were afraid to open them. There are some elderly people in the city who have their windows barred and are afraid to open their doors. The situation is so bad that if something happens in them it is a great problem to get in to those people.
There is no such thing as cheap security. Money spent on the police force is money well spent. There is no use talking about economic development and attracting foreign investment if there are not sufficient police and a low level of vandalism, because foreign investors will not invest here. They look at those matters before they invest their money. I am afraid that when foreign investors look at the level of lawlessness throughout the country at the moment they will be very reluctant to invest their money here. There should be no running away from this problem. If we need an extra 1,000 or 2,000 gardaí we should get them because it is the public who will pay at the end of the day. They are already paying for damage to their property so they might as well pay for extra gardaí to protect that property.
Many parents are running away from their responsibilities. They do not care where their children are when they are out at night and they do not care what time they come in at. Approximately £600 million a year is spent on alcohol so much of the problem must lie in that area. We are living in a society where law and order seem to be breaking down. People do not seem to be afraid of the police any more. I remember the time when a garda came along a street and a young lad was doing something he should not be doing he ran out of the way of the garda. That does not happen any more. Crime pays today. The sooner we realise that the better. As long as we keep our heads in the sand saying that crime does not pay the less we will do about it. I hope that the Minister will spell out on television, radio and in the other news media to the parents and the public at large their responsibilities in relation to crime. The parents do not seem to be living up to their responsibilities.
It is also important to go into the secondary schools and talk to the pupils about crime. The Minister has made a good start. I do not accept that Templemore can hold only 300 gardaí at a particular time. There are ample police barracks throughout the country where gardaí can be trained. There are about six military barracks in and around this city where gardaí can be trained. I hope this is the year of action when we will see more police in the streets and more sentences to fit the crimes so that this city will be safe for people to walk around and do their business unmolested, where elderly people will not be afraid to open their doors at night and where it will not be a city of muggings, rapes and robbings like Skid Row in America.
I do not know if a reserve police force is the answer. I do not believe the Garda would welcome a reserve police force. I believe the Garda are able to do the job if they get the support of the public and the courts and sufficient back up services. I am satisfied that if the public support the Garda this problem will be controlled.
I have heard much talk about extra police cars. Anybody who keeps the law and respects it does not have to worry about extra powers for the Garda. It is only the people who commit crimes who worry about extra powers for the Garda. I reject statements made about the Garda having too much power. We must back up the Garda if we are to tackle the problem.
I compliment the Minister on making a good start. We want to get it into the heads of the public and the people who commit crimes that crime does not pay and that tougher sentences, jails, Loughan House and whatever other measures are necessary to be taken will be taken by the Government so that the crime problem will be solved urgently.
I am surprised that Deputy Mitchell should table a motion of this nature. I say this because, though Minister for Justice until quite recently, he did not during his time in office declare the emergency in relation to crime that he is seeking now. I heard Deputy Mitchell speak on several occasions on radio and television programmes and far from wanting to take measures to curb crime, the course of action in which he was engaged was tantamount to encouraging the "Bugsy Malones" of this world to go out and commit more crime. The whole attitude of the people opposite seemed to be to pander to the do-gooders who believe that crime is symptomatic of the society in which we live and that we should not be too hard on the criminal. I do not accept that philosophy. The punishment should be made to fit the crime and I support those who call for the amendment of the law in the context of the granting of bail. The situation in this regard contributes enormously to the repeated commission of crime because irrespective of how many times the people concerned come before either the District Court or the Circuit Court they will be given a minimum sentence and that covers all the crimes they have committed. Therefore, so far as they are concerned the old motto that crime does not pay does not apply.
I am glad that the Minister has moved an amendment proposing the deletion of certain aspects of this resolution, particularly to delete the reference to the consideration of establishing a Dublin Garda reserve. There are echoes in the proposal to establish such a reserve of a similar episode during Deputy Cooney's tenure of office in a previous administration. He and the former Deputy Cosgrave embarked on a similar type of course in relation to other matters but that never saw the light of day because the people indicated their abhorrence of any such measure.
The Garda are capable of dealing with the situation provided the necessary amendments are made in the law to allow them to make their inquiries and to ensure that, convictions having been secured, those who have committed the crimes will be put out of circulation and not be left in a position to commit further crime.
The Conroy Report was produced quite some time ago but at the time of its introduction it led to a good deal of misgiving in relation to the Garda. I am not suggesting that the force should be expected to work without receiving proper remuneration but they could carry out an examination in relation to their previous role as a role that was regarded as a vocation and one that was respected to a much greater extent then than now by the community. An advance towards community policing by the Garda and the return to the old situation of the neighbourhood garda who was known by all the people in the area would go a long way towards eliminating many of the difficulties with which society must contend today. As Deputy Brennan said, in the past people knew the names and the addresses of the gardaí and respected them. I doubt if that is the situation in many areas today.
I appeal to the Minister to approach the Commissioner of the Garda on the basis that there should be a change from the approach of the Garda by way of greater involvement by them on an individual basis within the community rather than to be seen merely passing in squad cars. In that way their jobs would be made easier.
I regret that the Minister considers it necessary to amend this motion. Whether we declare a crime emergency in the Dublin metropolitan area is irrelevant because we all know that there is a crime emergency in this area. It is time that we moved away from these public relations exercises, stopped burying our heads in the sand and faced up to the reality. The sooner we do that the better.
This emergency situation cannot be said to be totally the fault of Fianna Fáil, though they have contributed to it greatly down through the years mainly because of their attitudes towards the law, their scant regard for law and order and their own history in this connection. I am talking about recent history as opposed to going back to civil war history. However, leaving that aside, I am pleased to learn that the Taoiseach said recently that he will not interfere with the Garda. That is a welcome innovation.
I hope it lasts.
The blame that can be apportioned to Fianna Fáil relates to the economic situation. One of the main problems has been the failure to provide proper housing for what is the fastest-growing population in all of western Europe. There has not been proper planning, and, consequently, not enough jobs created. In many cases people find themselves in trouble with the law solely because of the environment in which they live. These are people who fall easily into the hands of the criminal. In the case of drug abuse people who are vulnerable are being roped in by the godfathers who have no morals.
When Fianna Fáil were returned to power in 1977 they had a golden opportunity of doing something about this whole area of crime. Instead of borrowing money which they wasted they should have provided proper accommodation for the people and more jobs for them. Had this been done we would not have the degree of crime that we have today.
It is not my intention to turn this motion into a political issue but in my constituency during the election campaign the question of crime was singled out to be kicked about politically. Perhaps the fact that I was related to the then Minister for Justice resulted in my being singled out as a TD and accused of not doing anything about the major problems of law and order despite the fact that our party had been in Government for only seven months. Yet, those peopole said that within months of being elected to Government they would have many additional gardaí on the ground——
Seven weeks.
——and would take all sorts of steps to improve the situation, but in the Estimates that have come before the House they have not provided any money to carry out the proposals they announced in a loudmouthed fashion in the city and throughout the country. It was a lot of hot air.
The Deputy's inability to read amazes me.
As soon as the Dublin West by-election is out of the way we will not hear anything more about that. If the Government fail to get the seat we will have a general election and the Minister will be out of a job. We will then sort that problem out. I regret Fianna Fáil are making a political football out of this serious issue. The sooner we get down to dealing with it the better. There is a good deal of merit in the second part of our motion. As this is the first occasion I have had an opportunity in the House of meeting the Minister since his appointment I should like to wish him well. The Minister should consider establishing a Dublin Garda reserve force. The system that operates in London should be given a trial run and if the Minister does not take that suggestion seriously he will find that there will be a big increase in the number of vigilante groups. In my constituency many such groups have been established. A residents association in my constituency operate a vigilante group in an organised and proper way but I am nervous about the development of such groups.
Does the Deputy approve of that?
I do not approve of people operating outside the law.
We approved of law and order when others did not. The Deputy opposite should not talk about law and order.
I would welcome any strengthening of the law, particularly in relation to bail. When a former Minister for Justice, Mr. Ó Moráin, was closing down police stations and taking gardaí off foot patrols Fine Gael opposed that move as the record will show. One of the problems we have is that in many instances gardaí within the community do not relate well to the community or, perhaps, the community do not relate well to the gardaí. That is meant as a constructive comment and a non-political one. In the course of a reply to a parliamentary question of mine the Minister stated that the average salary of gardaí last year was £13,000 and the figure goes up to the salary of the Commissioner at £28,700. That indicates that gardaí are in receipt of pay which is greater than the average industrial wage and means that gardaí are not likely to be living in some parts of the city such as the area I represent. Consequently, they will not know very much about people living in those communities. I am not accusing anybody of not having sensitivity towards a particular community but that fact, coupled with the complaints which are made to public representatives from time to time, indicates that in areas where crime is high the relationship between the Garda and the community is not what it should be. It may be due to the fact that the Garda do not come from the same social background or because of historical factors.
I would like to see a strengthening of the relationship between the community and the Garda. The community should be made aware of the difficulties the Garda face and the Garda should have a greater understanding of the problems of the community they are protecting. It is wonderful to think that a very high percentage of the Garda do an exceptional job. They put their lives at risk on many occasions and I should like to pay tribute to them for that. However, we cannot spend all our time patronising. There is a problem and if a small percentage of the Garda have difficulty relating to the community they serve that could have the effect of creating a wrong impression. The Garda and the community should be brought together under a community council so that they can get to understand each other's role and difficulties. I am not making that statement as a criticism of anybody because the same could be said of people from different professional backgrounds. I do not wish to be misinterpreted because we all have the greatest respect for the Garda.
Prior to the election a development association in my constituency called a public meeting to deal with the problem of vandalism and it was attended by the biggest crowd I ever saw at a public meeting in my short few years in public life. The crowd was so big that a public address system had to be erected outside the hall. I heard people tell the meeting that when they got off the bus coming from work they clutched their handbags and ran as fast as they could until they reached their hall door. It is terrible to hear people making such a complaint. I accept that all Members are concerned about this problem but it is time we did something about it. Lip service is not enough. There is a need for action. If the Minister disagrees with the wording of the motion I suggest that he put his own suggestions for tackling the problem to the House. We will give the Minister whatever support he needs to tackle this problem but it is not good enough for him to say he will not accept part of our motion if he does not outline his proposals. The Minister should bring forward proposals at an early date. It is not good enough to make a fine speech at a Garda conference. Action is required and until there is action we will continue to raise this matter here.
I note that The Workers Party at their Ard Fheis decided against giving the Garda any more powers. We must have a balance in society but that balance is tilted the other way and criminals are far too much favoured as things stand. I would welcome any change, particularly a change in the law in relation to bail and other rights such as the right to silence which suspects enjoy. However, we must temper that change with balance to ensure that the democratic rights of individuals are not removed altogether. I hope the Minister's inaction in this area in recent times is not purely political and because his Government must depend on the three The Workers Party Deputies. I hope he is not playing politics.
It is due to the inaction of my predecessor.
We want to know what the Minister intends doing. When in Government we announced what we intended doing and put the machinery in motion.
And did not do anything.
We could not undo the wrongs of ten years in seven months.
A former Minister for Justice, Deputy Gerry Collins, promised that thousands of gardaí would be recruited but he did not provide enough money to pay for one extra garda in his Estimate. The Minister is in the same position. The problem will not disappear in spite of all the public relations and mirror exercises. The Minister can get his civil servants to write fine speeches for him but the problem will continue and we will continue to press for a solution to it. We want more than mirror and public relations exercises. We want action of the sort we took when in Government.
In conclusion, I hope that because of the debate which has taken place here tonight and which is ongoing, those who have a role to play outside the law enforcement area and outside the elected representatives, particularly the Judiciary, will take note of the public concern, especially in relation to drug abuse. We have passed legislation which specifies sentences which simply have not been applied.
Amendment agreed to.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.