asked the Minister for Defence if he is aware that many families are living in dwellings at McKee Park, Dublin which are in very bad condition; whether he has arranged to meet the people concerned to discuss the matter; and if he will give details of the housing situation for soldiers in McKee and Collins Barracks, Dublin.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Defence Forces Accommodation.
13.
The married quarters in McKee Park, which were built in 1954, provide a satisfactory standard of accommodation. At this stage however, they require some repairs which my Department are having effected. These repairs are the subject of discussions between the occupants of the quarters and the appropriate military authorities.
Four of the married quarters at Collins Barracks, Arbour Hill, have recently been built and are in excellent condition. The remainder of the quarters are very old and, as they become vacant, are not being re-allocated. It is proposed to demolish them and, in due course, to have them replaced by modern dwellings.
Is the Minister satisfied with the system of providing accommodation for the Defence Forces? The responsibility is divided between the Minister's Department and the local authorities and there is a feeling that members of the Defence Forces leave in order to qualify for houses. Would the Minister consider the position of providing houses for members of the Defence Forces because, at present, they are falling between two stools, the local authority and the Department of Defence?
I am aware that there is a conflict of interests here. It is the duty of the Department of Defence to provide married quarters for members who wish to avail of them and that is being done.
The Minister said it is the duty of his Department to provide married quarters but is the Minister aware that local authorities also provide housing accommodation for married personnel within the Defence Forces?
I am aware of that. I am pleased to say that, in this instance, Dublin Corporation have been very co-operative in rehousing occupants of old married quarters in Arbour Hill.
In view of the fact that members of the Defence Forces have been prohibited from contacting Deputies by directive of the Chief of Staff, would the Minister not agree that he should meet the people concerned to discuss the matter in view of the fact that he has been a very bad landlord and has put the responsibility for this matter on the shoulders of Dublin Corporation which has had the effect of transferring the Estimates for the Department of Defence to Dublin Corporation?
I will be in a position soon to issue a statement which will clarify the position. It is only in regard to service matters that members of the Defence Forces are prohibited from contacting their Deputies. I see no difficulty, particularly in regard to local authority housing, why a member of the Defence Forces should not have ample opportunity to discuss the problem with his local representative.
We will have to move on to Question No. 14.
14.
asked the Minister for Defence if he will encourage members of the Defence Forces to set up housing co-operatives to provide houses for Defence Force personnel in view of the non-availability of housing in many locations where Defence Force units are based and of the lack of housing available to his Department for military personnel.
15.
asked the Minister for Defence if, in view of the widespread disquiet at present regarding Defence Forces' accommodation as evidenced by an RTE television programme and the health report presented to Dublin Corporation, he will make public the report of the board of officers set up by the Quartermaster-General in September 1980 which was referred to in the reply to Parliamentary Question No. 26 on 8 April 1981.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 14 and 15 together.
The provision of housing is primarily a matter for the local authorities and married soldiers have an equal claim on such housing with other members of the community in the same category. The policy of my Department is to supplement the efforts of local authorities where soldiers' housing needs are greatest. Since 1954, 334 new married quarters have been provided at various locations throughout the country, including 92 in Dublin city.
It is the intention that all unsuitable married quarters will be replaced by modern housing. Work is now nearing completion on the first phase of the programme for the replacement of the married quarters at Cathal Brugha Barracks. This phase comprises 12 dwellings. The planning of further new quarters at the barracks and at the Curragh Camp and Collins Barracks, Cork, is being undertaken. The report referred to by the Deputy will be taken into account when plans for the building of further new married quarters are being considered. It is not intended to publish it.
It will continue to be the policy to encourage members of the Permanent Defence Force to set up co-operative schemes for the building of houses.
Arising from the reply given by the Minister to a previous question, does he stand over his suggestion that the wives of members of the Defence Forces may contact Deputies? In view of the fact that the health report of Dublin Corporation has resulted in some of the accommodation being declared unfit for human habitation, will he now take his responsibility seriously? The fact is that some of the accommodation is not fit for the lowliest animals to live in, but the Minister expects members of the Defence Forces to live in them. I have asked Dublin Corporation for details on the Minister's behalf and I am asking the Minister now if he will set up or arrange to have set up a housing co-operative, and if he will see to it that the persons involved will be met by him or some senior officer in his Department to discuss their grievances.
There was a grey area in regard to the legality of members of the Defence Forces approaching their elected representatives, and to get over that difficulty many of them got their wives to make representations. That grey area will now be clarified, I hope, as a result of a definitive statement to be issued. I agree that the standard of married quarters in some cases is very bad. The quarters in Griffith Square have been vacated, they are now closed, and we have had a certain amount of co-operation from Dublin Corporation with regard to rehousing. Co-operatives have been particularly successful in Westmeath and Longford and it is something which the Quartermaster-General will help to expand.
Does the Minister agree that the equality of access to local authority housing for members of the Defence Forces by comparison with the general population is more theoretical than real? Is he aware that a number of local authorities, in an endeavour to resolve the problem, set aside a number of houses for the Defence Forces from each group of new houses completed, and does the Minister agree that that is a very generous approach on the part of the local authorities? Will the Minister agree that it has become necessary to review the distribution of responsibility between his Department and the local authorities so that once and for all we can get it established with whom the responsibility lies in this matter?
All of this will be included in the special provisions we hope to make in regard to the Department and the local authorities and this will solve the immediate problem of overholders. The Deputy will probably be aware that this is something we will always have with us—there will always be overholders.
Does the Minister not agree that clarification of responsibility in this area would help us to deal with the overholders in the future? I agree with the Minister that a special provision to be made between the Departments of Defence and the Environment could solve the problem on a year-to-year basis, but will he not agree that a proper clarification now of the distribution of responsibility might help to prevent the overholding problem from continuing in the future, which it will if we make provision on a year-to-year basis only?
I agree that such clarification would be helpful and I will do everything in my power to encourage it. Any co-operation we get from any other source will be very welcome.
I welcome the Minister's intention to promote co-operative effort but would he elaborate on what type of co-operative housing he has in mind? Will he accept that overholding in Army houses is getting progressively worse year by year and that unless something is done immediately the situation will be beyond redemption?
I agree it merits immediate attention.
What type of co-operative system is the Minister talking about?
I am talking about county councils providing the necessary loans for members of the Defence Forces, or overholders who are former members of the Defence Forces, to enable them to rehouse themselves. We have decided that the Quartermaster General should encourage the formation of such schemes.
Loans have been available all the time. That is not progress towards the solution of the housing problem.
It would appear that members of the Defence Forces in Mullingar and Longford found it helpful.
Is the Minister seriously talking about a proper housing co-operative system? Will he take this up with local authorities who have Army barracks in their jurisdiction? Would he make some contribution to the local authorities to help them to provide fully serviced sites to facilitate a proper co-operative housing scheme for Army personnel? We have heard of the medical officer's report in regard to Dublin which condemned all the accommodation as substandard. We had a television programme outlining in detail the difficulties and the problems of the Defence Forces' accommodation. I am asking the Minister seriously to take up with local authorities, with a contribution from his Department, the provision of serviced sites.
I have travelled all these roads for many years in deputations to successive Governments and Ministers for Defence with regard to the provision of serviced sites on the Curragh and elsewhere. I have gone into depth in regard to special allocations the Department of Defence might make to local authorities so that a certain number of houses in each local authority housing scheme adjacent to Army barracks could be designated for Army personnel. I have not been very successful. Will the Deputy accept my assurance that anything I can do to resolve this will be done?
They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Would the Minister examine my suggestion that he discuss with local authorities who have Army barracks in their area the possibility of providing fully serviced sites, with the help of an allocation from the Department? That is the first step towards providing proper Army housing.
I will examine it.