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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Mar 1983

Vol. 340 No. 11

Private Members' Business. - Petrol and Oil Prices: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Flynn on Tuesday 8 March 1983.
That Dáil Éireann deplores the recent number of large increases in the price of petrol and other oil products and, in view of the effects of these increases on the family budget, calls on the Government to ensure that the price of petrol and oil products to the consumer fully reflects reductions in the world price of oil.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:
"notes the downward trend in world oil prices and approves the Government's intention to absorb some of this reduction at the retail level by increasing the excise duty on petrol and other road vehicle fuels in order to ensure adequate revenue to support the level of services provided for in the 1983 Estimates."
—Minister of State at the Department of Industry and Energy.

Yesterday evening I dealt in detail with some of the problems that would arise for hotels, restaurants and other establishments as a result of a fall-off in tourism. Ordinary weekend motoring is now a thing of the past. The Minister yesterday announced that he intended to recoup a further £15 million from the hard-pressed petrol consumer, the consumer who needs his car to take him to his place of employment. If that £15 million were passed on to the consumer the price of petrol per gallon could be reduced. I am not sure of the exact calculation. It could be 10 pence. With the fall-off in revenue from petrol, with cross-Border traffic and so forth, I cannot say exactly what the differential would be and it would be hard for the Minister and his officials to give the exact figure. Indeed, in my long experience here, with all due respect to officials, sometimes their calculations could be inaccurate. I have to remember that.

The hardest hit in the community is the motorist. The same number of new cars will not be sold this year as were sold in other years. The result of the increase in VAT has been the setting up in back yards of motor repair shops with the proprietors going from supplier to supplier for various parts. Neither I nor my party condone that situation. Most of the major garages are letting workers go. Over the years garage owners have received no grants of any kind from State agencies. When garages were established it was through the goodwill of the proprietor and his bankers that the business got off the ground. The situation now is that thousands of mechanics and panel beaters will become unemployed because of the increase in VAT and other higher charges on the motorist. I believe that before the middle of the year the price of crude will be about $10 a barrel. The price war is hotting up.

The Minister indicated he would be taking £15 million off the motorist. In the budget he left the figure vague. I am open to correction on that. I shall be very interested to hear from my friends in America what the Minister for Trade, Commerce and Tourism, Deputy Cluskey, is telling them in New York, Chicago and Philadelphia about tourism here, because if he tells the truth he will have to admit we are the dearest for petrol, for hotel accommodation, for food and many other things. Leading economists have admitted that. The Minister for Trade, Commerce and Tourism should prepare a package for tourists coming into the country, the Americans and the British, who will spend money in the country. He should make a grant available to the travel agents to enable them to put special packages together to make the country attractive to the tourist. We must remember the enormous sums spent in past years by tourists. We are no longer attractive and travel agents say there is a big drop in bookings. The position must be reviewed immediately. If it is not reviewed the trade will collapse and, once it collapses, it will be impossible to restore confidence. I emphasise that point. The issue involved is most important. I trust our contributions to this debate will be borne in mind. A great deal of harm has been done because of the policy adopted by the Minister. Nevertheless at this last minute maybe he will be able to take our advice on this and put a package together which will help the tourist coming to this country.

I would like to begin with a few facts——

A Cheann Comhairle——

I have called the Minister for Finance.

——about the recent price increases to which the Deputies have referred in their motion. There has been more than one reason for price increases in petrol and oil products since the beginning of the year. On 8 January the excise duty on petrol was increased by 15p a gallon and on 1 March VAT changes brought about an increase of 11p a gallon. On 8 January there was an increase of between 2p and 6p a gallon on petrol arising from the requirements of the INPC and the oil companies as recommended by the National Prices Commission, and on 1 March there was an increase of some 3p a gallon arising again from a recommendation of the National Prices Commission on foot of a request made by the petrol retailers.

I know that Deputy Flynn and his colleagues are deploring the recent number of price increases and I would like them to state if they are deploring tax increases — which of course they are — the increase for the petrol retailers in whose defence Deputy Connolly has been very eloquent, and the increases for the oil companies who had presented a request duly sanctioned by the National Prices Commission. I would like to have it clear whether they are deploring all of them, and if so, what answer they have to give to petrol retailers to defend their deploring of the increase on the margin for the petrol retailers. I am afraid that this motion is one of those rather unreflecting motions that take one matter in isolation. Both Deputy Flynn and Deputy Connolly, to their credit as orators I suppose, have worked up a fine head of steam about this, completely on one side of the issue without examining in any way the other side which they have been very careful to avoid but to which I would like to draw some attention. I would like to know what Deputy Flynn and Deputy Connolly would have in mind from a budgetary point of view. To help them in their thinking about that I remind them of a few more facts that underlie the case they are making.

In January we had excise duty increases. The total revenue raised by those excise duty increases, taking all of the products covered, was £119 million. In the budget we had taxation and other increases, all of them recorded there, which raised another £349 million gross in revenue. I add as a sweetener that the tax increases on petrol and other oil products this year will raise a total of some £76 million. We are talking about substantial sums of money. That figure for the increases in taxes on petrol and oil of £76 million in the context of the total budget and total public spending does not appear so very large, but is nevertheless a considerable sum. The total amount of new revenue between excises in January and budget increases is over £460 million. At the end of that we still have a current budget deficit of just under £900 million for this year. That is a very considerable sum, but I am bound to point out that Deputy Flynn's and Deputy Connolly's party opined towards the end of last year that the current budget deficit should be £750 million. How in deploring these price increases, the reasons for which I have given, would they go about arriving at the targets which they have stated as being desirable for the current budget deficit? In order to do that they would have had to find another £150 million either of expenditure cuts to which they seem to object and which they seem to rule out, because on every occasion when we talk about that in this House we have a storm of wails from the Opposition benches or by taxation increases which they deplore. If it were to be by way of taxation increases they would have to find £150 million on top of the £460 million which we have had to find this year. In other words, they would have had to find another £1 for every £3 in taxation that we have raised. If we apply that proportion, for example, to the excise duty increases in petrol instead of finding——

Keep to the motion.

Deputy Flynn may not like it but he is going to listen to it. Instead of finding 26p a gallon in tax on petrol they would have to find already by now another 8p per gallon.

How much did the other £15 million get you?

These are the people who deplore the increases that we have and who now bury their heads in the sand as they have done for so long in the past in the hope that the budgetary problems would go away while they kept on deploring price increases and, I might add, during their period in office doing precious little to avoid them.

Books, files and ledgers are not much good.

The Minister without interruption.

I would like to know if Deputy Flynn, Deputy Connolly or any of their colleagues would like to say where they would find that extra funding because to keep to their targets they would have to do what they now claim they deplore or what they have resisted so consistently in this House.

Step out and let us back in.

Deputy Flynn had his chance. His party stepped in and they flunked it. Now they will have to bear with us.

(Interruptions.)

I hear the Minister's colleagues are jibbing.

It is commendable of the Opposition that so many of them seem to have a great feeling that they would like to join one of the parties in government. I would advise them to take that up in the right quarter. The next point I am making is that in order to get the kind of result which the Deputies opposite say they would have got in the overall budget context they would have had to impose new taxation or expenditure cuts on a much larger scale than we have done. The motion they have put down patently ignores that and is being milked simply for the facile kind of remark that we have heard from both of the Deputies in this debate so far. Is Deputy Flynn aware that we have gone about as far in reducing expenditure as we could because we are within a budgetary framework which is very constrained? As a country we are within an economic framework which is very constrained and we must live within that.

I agree that they have overdone it on the taxes.

In that context we have gone as far as we could in the short time available to us in adjusting expenditure in order to bring expenditure into line with what we believe to be the proper and prudent overall financial targets. In doing that we have had to take action to validate Estimates decisions made by the main Opposition party when they were in government. I am not so sure if Deputy Flynn and Deputy Connolly are aware that we had to take action to avoid a £151 million overrun or potential overrun on expenditure in order to get the kind of balance that we now have, less desirable in their own terms than the kind of targets they put up.

They are in Government now and they should not be trying to blame anyone.

(Interruptions.)

I am asking Deputy Connolly to explain how he could have done it. The fact remains that it would not have been possible for the party opposite to do what would get the kind of results they wanted to get without imposing an even higher level of taxation than we have imposed or without reducing expenditure by an even larger amount than we have reduced it.

Since we had to look to extra taxation, I think we would all agree that on taxation the options are rather limited and that we are forced inevitably to look at taxation of what we call the old reliables and VAT. There we are constrained also. Our VAT rates are held by many people to be very high. In fact, if one looks at the total incidence of value-added tax on the total consumer expenditure on goods and services the result is an effective average flat rate of 14 per cent, which is not very high by international standards. The distribution of this incidence of taxation is a matter very much for ourselves to decide. We have decided over a number of years that a large proportion of consumer expenditure would be effectively free of VAT. That inevitably means that the rate of VAT on the products subject to it must necessarily and inevitably be rather high, which it is at the moment. That is what has brought us to the present levels of taxation.

Last night, Deputy Flynn voiced the opinion that I was adjusting the figures in the budget to suit myself, in the hope of creating a fund which I could use in some underhand way to purchase votes at an election. If I were given to the use of unparliamentary language — which I am not—I would be tempted to say that that is exactly the kind of empty-headed repetition of secondhand ideas for which the Deputy is justly famous.

What is the Minister doing with the £15 million?

The Deputy has picked it out of a recent newspaper editorial.

He has not.

Order, please.

It is an outrageous allegation.

Deputy Connolly was not interrupted.

On a point of order, is it in order that any Deputy, and particularly a Minister, should suggest that any Member of the House is empty-headed? Is this parliamentary language, or does the Minister know his own title?

It is not unparliamentary language.

He is only the man for writing to the papers. Leave him alone.

I want to make it even clearer by reminding the Deputy of what I said in the budget statement contained in this publication. It would appear that neither he, Deputy Connolly nor their Leader read it when they got it. What I said on this point in the budget statement was, "Because of the world market situation, it is expected that there will be a significant fall in oil prices in the coming months". I will skip a sentence or two and continue: "The Government proposed to absorb some of this reduction at retail level by increasing the excise duty on petrol and other road vehicle fuels". I skip another couple of sentences. "I am providing for a yield of £15 million this year from this source. The Dáil will, of course, be given an opportunity to debate these increases".

Will the Minister take more?

The Minister, without interruption, please.

That figure of £15 million is very clear. The quotation is from the budget statement. I cannot give him the exact reference now.

We are all familiar with that.

If the Deputies opposite have any difficulty in finding it, I am quite prepared to give it. The allegation made by Deputy Flynn last night is nothing short of scandalous. It is the kind of thing which he, as a Member of this House, should not allow himself to say inside or outside this House. The newspaper in which that piece of nonsense was published, on the following day produced a correction in the form of a letter from me setting out the matter in full detail.

That is right.

I also said in the Budget Statement that if the Dáil were in session at the time when any of these increases were to be applied, the Dáil would have the opportunity to debate them. I am glad to say that there is no way in which any Government in this country can impose taxation increases of that kind without being subject to democratic procedures. As the Deputies opposite know very well because they did it themselves, if the Dáil happens not to be in session when revenues like this are raised, there is a procedure, and order under which the revenues can be raised and the order can then be debated when the House is next in session. The Deputies opposite know all about it if they have any memory, because they have done it themselves.

On a point of information, please——

The point I wanted to make is that there is absolutely——

There can be no point of information, Deputy. This is usually done in debating societies, but not in this House.

There is absolutely no foundation for the kind of allegation that there is a secret, underhand way of raising revenue. The figure was specifically set out for Deputy Connolly. I do not know if he considers any figure as precise or vague. I cannot see any great vagueness about the figure £15 million.

Or thereabouts, the Minister said.

I said £15 million and I have no difficulty in comprehending that. I will read the passage again if the Deputy so wishes, although there are more important things to get on to.

I would like the Minister to do that. It is very interesting. How much does that mean a gallon?

Order, please.

If the Deputy would wait for a moment——

Yes, because I want to get this right. The Minister is going off the rails.

If the Deputy could listen for a few moments, instead of talking. The Deputies opposite are calling on the Government to ensure——

Deputy Connolly is being disorderly and if he does not restrain himself he will have to leave the House.

The Deputies opposite call upon the Government to ensure that consumer prices fully reflect reductions in world prices of oil. I have explained this evening, as I explained in the Budget Statement, why the Government have chosen a different course. There are a few basic facts which it would do the Deputies well to reflect on. Any reduction in the world price of this commodity benefits this country. It increases our real income, it reduces the price of something which we need to buy in order to produce our goods and services, it increases our real income by improving our balance of payments position, for example. It increases our wealth because we export less goods in order to cover the cost of the imports. Whatever the incidence of the reduction within our economy, whether we reflect it all in consumer prices or use part of it to finance necessary Government expenditure, the fact remains that there is a real benefit to the economy as a whole from any such reduction. We are all justifiably hopeful that this year there will be a real benefit in our country, our economy and our people from this development. However we apply the benefit, there is a gain to the country as a whole. The Government decided in this case that it was better to absorb the sum of this reduction in price by way of an increase in tax revenue rather than finding themselves in the position of being obliged to raise additional tax revenues on products, the price of which has not fallen. In the circumstances, that is a perfectly reasonable way of going about our business and a perfectly reasonable way of raising finance to fund the necessary expenditure which we all believe has to be met.

While Deputy Flynn argued that the benefit in this way will not directly go to the consumer, the fact remains that had we not raised the revenue in this way we would have had to raise it elsewhere. As we all on this side know and Deputies opposite are gradually becoming aware, there is only one group of people who can pay the cost of any measure to finance the running of this country and that is our people.

They are.

The PAYE sector.

We are now paying the price for the Deputies on the opposite side having ignored that for so many years. We are now faced with picking up the bill to pay the interest on the borrowings which they undertook without any great knowledge or confidence as to what they were going to do with the economy.

The Minister is not answering the motion.

What about the borrowing in 1977? Tell us about that.

Or about the advertisement?

Deputy Connolly, please.

From that very good man.

That is part of our problem. There is no way that we can avoid it or cover it up.

What about the advertisement?

Deputy Connolly made a case for a reduction in petrol vouchers. He went considerably outside the terms of the Opposition motion in suggesting a number of other schemes, concessions or measure which would have an effect on industries about which he and all of us were worried. We are all in the same boat and have the same concern about the people of this country. We must——

Some of us.

We must, as a legislature, show some responsibility in the way we go about dealing with the problems. Deputy Connolly, in making that case, carefully omitted any reference as to how he would raise the necessary funds for those measures.

Is the Minister not getting £15 million extra?

The Deputy omitted any reference as to how he would raise the revenue. He still has not understood, apparently, that the £15 million which we expect to get on the source in question is fully accounted for in the budget arithmetic, clearly and unambiguously set out. Deputy Flynn spoke last night of what he alleges to be the narrow fiscal mentality of this Government. I ask where are the vestiges of the party who, when in Government, produced a spurious plan solely on the basis that it was done with the advice of experts and economists? The very party whips a short while before that in Opposition decried the contributions to be made by experts and economists. On this issue that party, and Deputy Flynn in particular, are doing what they have always done, weather-cocking, bending with every wind that blows without any consistency. That problem is shown very clearly in this motion.

Finally, since Deputy Connolly asked me last evening what kind of increases would be required to raise revenue in the way I have mentioned — he spoke about 10p or 15p and he did it again this evening — I am bound to say I am very glad he is over there and not here because, quite honestly, his arithmetic is rather bad. If we were to raise this revenue by putting it on petrol only from 1 April next we would need 7p per gallon in order to raise that revenue over the remainder of the year, or 8p per gallon from 1 May next——

And it would depend on buoyancy.

——and less than that if we spread it——

Would the Deputy please keep quiet.

——and less than that if we spread it over other oil products, and less than that again if we varied the timing of the measure over the year, dependent on the changes in world prices. I am confident that the revenue I expect to raise from that will be there because of what we already know about the likely developments in oil prices at world level this year.

For all of those reasons I would ask the House to look at the amendment the Government have tabled. I shall read it for Deputy Connolly in case he has not understood its significance——

On a point of information, who gave the Minister the figure of £15 million on the gallonage?

That is the figure we have worked out based on the yields that we get from present duties and the expected consumption of petrol over the whole year. It is a perfectly straightforward procedure.

Does that include VAT?

The amendment which I propose calls on the House to note the downward trend in world oil prices and approve the Government's intention to absorb some of this reduction at the retail level by increasing the excise duty on petrol and other road vehicle fuels in order to ensure adequate revenue to support the level of services provided for in the 1983 Estimates. That is the bottom line.

I think I am right in the 10p when one includes VAT.

We need to ensure that, as a community, we provide the revenues required to support the level of services that we, as a community, have agreed we should have. It is in that context that we have taken this measure. It is that relationship between what we produce as a community in terms of revenue and what we spend as a community on services which Deputies opposite have failed for years even to begin to understand.

We remember 1973 to 1977. We will never forget it.

Deputy Mac Giolla, please.

On a point of order, the motion is down in my name and that of Deputy Connolly. There are amendments down in the names of the Minister for Finance and Deputy Mac Giolla and others. That second amendment has not been moved and cannot be moved until such time as the first amendment has been disposed of. Therefore, it would not be in order for Deputy Mac Giolla to make a contribution at this time. Considering that the Minister for Finance is from the Government side it is, by tradition and precedent, back to our side and Deputy H. Byrne must be in possession.

Acting Chairman

I am ruling that Deputy Mac Giolla be allowed to speak.

On a point of order, for how long may Deputy Mac Giolla speak?

Acting Chairman

He is entitled to half an hour if he takes the full time.

This is departing from precedent. With all due respect to you, Sir, I might point out that you are now setting a precedent. I think that should be put on record.

May I submit that——

On a point of order, so that we may get the matter right——

I might submit that the Chair is not creating a precedent. I can quote here a decision of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle only a few weeks ago, on 15 February, in a similar situation when the Leas-Cheann Comhairle decided that while the motion would not be taken I would be allowed time to explain why I put down the amendment. A similar situation arises now. I shall be very brief but I submit that I am being allowed time to explain why this amendment was put down.

It is just a question of getting the matter correct. You, Sir, called on Deputy Mac Giolla. In effect you are going against the tradition of the House. If Deputy Mac Giolla requests me to give time so that he can explain the reason he put down the amendment, I can live with that, I will accept that, but I want it to be clearly understood that it is purely for that purpose and that he is not entitled, under precedent, to have half an hour to speak on this amendment which he has not moved. It is our time within the tradition of the House. If Deputy Mac Giolla — as he did on one former occasion — requests that he be given some little time to explain the reason for his amendment, I will gladly defer to that. But I want it clearly understood that you, sir, are acting irregularly in calling on him at this time.

To put the matter straight I just want to quote the Leas-Cheann Comhairle when he said, on 15 February 1983:

Deputy Mac Giolla, I want to explain that you cannot move your amendment now but you can explain it to the House. We have not disposed of amendment No. 1. We have not reached a decision on it. The Deputy can explain his reasons for his amendment.

I submit that Deputy Flynn is not correct in saying that there is no precedent for this. Certainly I will not be taking half an hour. I will be very brief, within ten minutes anyway.

I accept the fact that the Deputy has an entitlement now to make this explanation to the House. But I want to explain to you, Mr. Chairman — so that it is on the record — that it is not proper, under Standing Orders and precedent, for you to call Deputy Mac Giolla to take the time that is allowed to us on this side. Consequently it is purely with the agreement of this side of the House that we accept that Deputy Mac Giolla should be allowed to explain his motion and that it will not create a precedent here that will be followed ad nauseam.

I simply want to explain why the amendment was put down to the motion. I agree with the arguments advanced by Fianna Fáil Deputies in regard to the effect of the increase in the price of petrol on prices and on the economy generally because of the huge effect which the cost of transport have on all products. Therefore I would agree with the motion that the lowering of prices should be reflected in a reduction of price at the pumps. But I submit that their motion will not bring about this effect because the Minister not absorbing the price into the Exchequer does not mean that the oil companies will pass the lowered prices on to the consumer. Therefore I suggest that the Fianna Fáil motion does not take into consideration the power and control which the major oil companies have on products and prices and thereby also on the economy on the cost of transport and so on. It is for that reason that I put down this amendment No. 2 reading:

To delete all words after "ensure" and substitue:

"that there is adequate modern refining capacity in the country, under State control, so that the price of petrol and oil products to Irish consumers can fully reflect reductions in the world price of oil."

The Minister in his opening remarks made it very clear that the oil companies would not be reflecting the lower cost of oil products in the price to the consumer. He made the point that the oil companies are very profit-oriented. He pointed out that when they closed down the Whitegate refinery because of its cost — it was affecting their profits, it was too costly — they did not pass on the reduction to the consumer at any stage. This is a very significant point made by the Minister which indicates to me that the oil companies would not pass on any further world reductions by lowering the price of oil at the pumps.

The oil companies here want to decide our oil policies — they want to have total control. They are very profit-oriented and they deal solely with their parent companies in Britain. They decide their policies here on the basis of the parent companies' policy in Britain. They tell us that they do not make profits here and therefore pay no tax because they actually pass on the profits to the parent companies and the profits are not reflected in the Irish subsidiaries but they are in the parent companies. By this trick the oil companies here do not pay the taxes they should be paying. Only some hundreds of thousands of pounds have been paid in taxes here in the past couple of decades rather than millions. The result is that the motorists here have to pay the taxes, part of which the oil companies should be paying. All are put back on to the motorists and the transport companies.

They wish also to decide our policy in regard to refining capacity here. They do not want us to have our own refining capacity. They did not want to build Whitegate in the first place and when the opportunity came they closed it down. They fought tooth and nail some years ago against an independent company that wished to establish an oil refinery in Dublin port. The battle they put up then was very significant. They did not want any rival company to set up refining capacity here because what they want to use is the major refinery at Milford Haven and the other parent companies' refining capacity. The danger was shown during the oil crisis some years ago when not alone were we not given the total of the capacity of Whitegate but some oil products of Whitegate went back to England.

The oil companies decide our policy to a great extent. We must control them if we are to bring the price of petrol down for the consumer. The Minister said it would cost £600 million to establish a refinery. I do not know where he got that figure because I do not think it has been costed to that extent. Whitegate, for which the Minister made a strong case — the Coalition and the outgoing Fianna Fáil Government were totally committed to the need for Whitegate for strategic reasons — is totally out of date as a refinery and within the next decade it must go in any case. The present Minister and the outgoing Minister will be aware of that. It will not be a viable proposition throughout the next decade. Therefore, modern oil refining capacity will be required. If we believe, as the present and previous Governments did, that we must have our own refining capacity in ten years, we must consider the establishment of a modern oil refinery. In this amendment I simply ask the Coalition Government to make the appropriate decisions now to provide through the INPC a modern oil refinery. If we are to plan for a decade hence we must make the decisions now because it would take ten years to bring such a refinery into production. The amendment, therefore, is simply asking for reality in the debate.

I agree with the purpose of the Fianna Fáil motion but I do not think they took into account the decisions and policies which the oil companies would be operating. I regard the Minister's amendment as being totally unacceptable and unconstitutional. They propose that a decision can be made now that any lowering of prices will be added at the petrol pump and taken into the Exchequer. It is totally unprecedented and should be totally unacceptable by all in the House. A decision like that should not be made in advance without each time coming before the House——

It will come before the House each time.

That is not what the Minister said.

The Minister said he has made the decision and the Government have made the decision that if prices are lowered next week they will not be lowered at the pumps because he will take the difference into the Exchequer. That is not the same as bringing it before the House each time. That is why I say this amendment by the Government is unacceptable. They want us to agree in advance that the Government will do this.

Every order will come before the House. I said that on 9 February and again tonight.

It is not in the amendment.

It is not and therefore the amendment should be totally unacceptable and opposed by everyone.

I support the motion:

That Dáil Éireann deplores the recent number of large increases in the price of petrol and other oil products and, in view of the effects of these increases on the family budget, calls on the Government to ensure that the price of petrol and oil products to the consumer fully reflects reductions in the world price of oil.

The motion was ably and eloquently moved by Deputy Flynn and supported with some vigour by Deputy Connolly. The massive increases in the price of petrol and other oil products since the change of Government already have had a devastating effect on the economy. When stocks of oil bought in before the savage increases run out the effects will be all the more severe. If we move into a period when oil usage will increase, particularly in the agricultural sector, input prices in that industry will skyrocket and greatly damage an industry which has taken a very bad beating in recent months.

Agriculture is the nation's greatest industry, a fact not readily accepted by many, certainly not by the Government. They have missed no opportunity to strangle the industry. They show little sensitivity to its potential. With proper attention and commitment the industry can grow and be the saviour of the economy. Our agricultural exports are the envy of the industrial world. Their value has increased significantly in the last ten years. Since the introduction of the farm modernisation scheme the industry has become more regulated and production has grown out of all recognition, which means that any incentives provided to farming are reacted to and will repay State investment a hundredfold. With the demise of the farm modernisation scheme, caused by this Government, we can expect production levels to fall and exports to fall with a dramatic consequent loss of jobs and revenue to the State.

Farming needs fair play. Farming deserves fair play. Every £1 spent on farming yields handsome dividends. We put down this motion to ensure that the improvement in world oil prices is passed on to the consumer. In the case of agriculture it would certainly be a wise investment. It may not — and I emphasise this — be regarded as a prop-up situation. We are witnessing a change in world oil prices. It is confidently expected that there will be a significant drop in those prices. This drop is a result of many factors, the major one being the fall-off in usage because of the recession, which was caused in the first instance by massive increases in oil prices in the seventies when the OPEC countries stretched their prices beyond the limits of world endurance.

Oil was bought in this country at those enormous costs. This increased the cost of living beyond our capacity. To retain set standards of living, people spent beyond their means. Now that a little sanity has come into the world situation it was hoped that sanity would prevail here too, and that any price reductions would be passed on to the consumer. In this country neither sanity nor decency prevailed. Greed took over and every penny of the reduction was devoured by the Coalition Government as a shoal of piranhas would devour its prey with no mercy shown.

The agricultural industry uses approximately 30 per cent of our total consumption of oil. This shows the massive dependence of the industry on oil. Our imports are as follows according to the CSO: 1980, 6,048,342 tons at a value of £722 million; 1981, almost 5,000,000 tons rat a value of £852 million; 1982, January to November, inclusive, 4,000,000 tons at a value of £812 million. One ton represents approximately 275 Imperial gallons of fuel as we know it. We are paying far more for less oil, as can be clearly seen. Had we imported the same amount of oil in 1982 as we did in 1980, with oil at 1982 prices, our bill would have been a massive £1,200 million. This is the cost of the main part of our energy bill.

Slightly less than one-third of that amount is withdrawn from farming, £4,000 million. It is hard to believe. With this massive withdrawal from agriculture one could have expected that any benefits accuring to us from outside would gladly be passed on, but no. The Government vultures are hovering ready to pounce, not interested in the wellbeing of their prey. They need their meat today, for today, and they behave as if tomorrow will never come.

Any reduction in oil prices would give the sector confidence at this time, and the industry could surely do with a boost. Red diesel, as it is commonly known, is used by farmers in their tractors, combine harvesters, self-propelled silage harvesters, self-propelled beet harvesters, and there are massive numbers of these machines around the country. In County Wexford alone there are 7,000 tractors, 500 over 80 horse power, 2,800 between 50 and 80 horse power, 2,500 between 35 and 51 horse power, and 900 in the 30 horse power bracket. Almost all of those tractors use red diesel. Very few are still using the old TVO with petrol used as a primer.

Approximately 50 per cent of the tractors in this great agricultural county are over 50 horse-power and therefore are big users of fuel. Fuel is now one of the massive inputs into agricultural production. A reduction in the price of that oil would be a much-needed shot in the arm at this stage. Morale in farming is at an all-time low and needs a lift. It is at an all-time low because of the fall in the prices of agricultural produce, and other price increases in inputs over the past few years. Indeed, farmers' incomes, as per an independent survey, dropped by some 70 per cent over the past three years. I ask the House: what other sector would accept this? None. Every sector seeks and gets increases in double figures, and normally can keep pace with inflation.

The drop in farmers' incomes is now reflected in the unemployment situation. With little development on the farms, a drop in employment in the building trade is caused. With little interest in the service industries to agriculture, a further increase in unemployment levels is caused. Less fertiliser is used, which means less production. A loss of jobs in creameries, co-ops, grain stores, meat factories, and so on, has meant fewer jobs in fertiliser factories, as we saw in Albatros in the past year. There are no sales of machinery and there are consequent losses in garages around the country, and an encouragement to go into the black economy as was mentioned earlier by my colleague Deputy Connolly.

Further fuel price increases will exacerbate this situation. Agricultural machinery is a glutton for oil consumption. In County Wexford — and these figures are provided by the ACOT offices there — there are 900 combine harvesters, 300 beet harvesters, 1,600 bailers, 200 single chop forage harvesters, 300 double chop forage harvesters and 100 precision chop forage harvesters.

Silage harvesting is one of the heavier elements of fuel consumption in farming. Silage making is a great art and has now replaced the traditional art of haymaking. In County Wexford, as an instance, some 75 per cent of the winter feed is silage. The advent of silage on farms has brought with it an ease of winter feed with far less labour intensity. In recent years silage quality has improved. This very beneficial aspect of farming is now threatened because of input costs, mainly fuel. To protect the quality of silage we have now achieved, the Government must take cognisance of the price of fuel oil for farmers.

To acquaint the uninitiated with the value of quality silage and the necessity for it, it is simply a matter of pure economics. The greater the quality of the silage the better the feed, the better the feed the better the product, the better the product the greater the profit, the greater the profit the greater the input into our economy, in which we should all be interested.

In a survey carried out last year in Wexford of 57 agricultural contractors, with their main emphasis on silage making, the number of acres of silage harvested in the county was 36,000. This was on 1,100 farms. The amount of silage made by contractors is 80 per cent and the number of new silage makers each year is on the increase and is now at 150. The situation of the contractors is that 40 per cent of the larger contractors are in serious financial difficulties: some 32 per cent have smaller financial problems but they are behind in their payments. Almost half the silage cut in Wexford is by contractors and I think this would be reflected throughout the country. It takes nine gallons of red diesel to cut, transport and ensile one acre of grass. This is an enormous cost to the customer and the contractor and it has almost put the contractor out of business. If that happens the blame will lie with the Minister and the Government because of their insistence in grabbing the last penny. If the drop in fuel prices was passed on it would protect the contractor who would, in turn, provide a necessary service to the farmer. In addition, there would be a massive benefit to the economy.

Is the Minister aware that it takes two and a half gallons of fuel to plough one acre of ground and eight gallons to service a crop of barley or wheat? Does he realise it takes 12 gallons to service the growing of an acre of sugar beet? With margins so slim at this time it is vital that the price reduction be passed on to the farmer. When one considers there are 228,000 acres of pasture, 22,000 acres of beet, 16,000 acre of wheat, 32,000 acres of malting barley and 78,000 acres of feeding barley in Wexford, it is easier to understand the importance of passing on the reduction.

We can conclude that this Government have no commitment to agriculture. There was the scrapping of the Farm Modernisation Scheme and a decision to tax all farmers irrespective of their incomes, even though figures have been provided independently by An Foras Talúntais to show that two-thirds of the farmers have not a taxable income. In my opinion this proposal is to accommodate the Labour Party whose members from time to time have called for the full nationalisation of land. There has been the introduction for the first time of VAT on fuel oil for farmers and the increase in the VAT rate on agricultural contracting at a time when farming is at a low ebb. This is done despite the fact that it is acknowledged that when agriculture is down so too is the economy. Yet, the Government squeeze and try to drag the soul out of the industry. With any recognition by the Government agriculture will progress and flourish. That opportunity is there now. I ask the Government to pass on the benefit of the drop in oil prices to the consumers. Agriculture has never let the country down.

Closely allied to the agricultural section is the horticulture industry where fruit and vegetables are grown under glass. This industry has a high labour content. At one stage it was seasonal but now it is an all-year round operation because the operators are using energy sources to heat their greenhouses in winter in order to propagate faster growth. The glasshouse industry has become a specialised industry and it must be encouraged. When one considers there were imports of horticultural produce to the value of £280 million last year, it is obvious that something must be done about the matter. If these imports were halted and if the items in question were produced at home there would be more jobs and our balance of payments would look more respectable.

In 1970 there were more than 400 acres under glass. Today that figure has fallen to 200 acres. The owners of the enterprises are highly qualified, specialised people and they have investigated every avenue to improve the margins which were minimal for this year. A sale in County Waterford of three acres of glass on a seven acre site will demonstrate the present position and the margins available to the people. This enterprise was sold for £30,000 even though its replacement value was £300,000. It must be obvious from that that this industry is not an attractive one at this time.

The trend is towards a lessening of this great industry which has tremendous potential. If something is not done to help it there will be a further increase in imports and there will be a further imbalance in our economy. We must ask ourselves if we are serious about helping the industry. Do we consider it is vital to our economy?

Acting Chairman

I understand that taking the ten minutes given to Deputy Mac Giolla and the time the Deputy has taken amounts to 30 minutes in all. Deputy Bruton wishes to contribute.

I do not recall agreeing to that. I am entitled to 30 minutes and I intend to take that time.

On a point of order, Deputy Flynn made it very clear that he was giving way to Deputy Mac Giolla on the conditions he mentioned——

The time was taken away.

——on the basis of the time allocated to the Opposition.

On a point of order, the Minister is not just stretching it, he is not accurate. I said I had no objection to Deputy Mac Giolla making the case why he wanted the amendment but there was no question of it coming out of the time allocated to the Opposition side.

On a point of order, we had better get this clear. The Deputy made what I considered to be a very generous move in the circumstances and on the basis of the precedents. However, it was clear it was coming from the time allocated to the Opposition. I understand that under our normal rules the proposer of the motion is to be allowed 15 minutes to conclude and that Deputy Bruton, our speaker, is to be allowed ten minutes. Having regard to the time now, I think Deputy Bruton should be allowed to speak.

I do not know where the Minister gets that precedent. I made it clear I wanted it on record that we were not creating a precedent in this matter. When you took the Chair, Sir, you called on Deputy Mac Giolla as if he had the right to make his contribution. That was not so. I claimed Deputy Byrne was entitled to the floor but you insisted on Deputy Mac Giolla. I said that, if that Deputy wished to give the reasons for taking his amendment and if you wished to give him a few minutes to do so, that was fair enough but there was no question of it interfering with the 30 minutes allocated as of right to the speaker from the main Opposition party.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Mac Giolla is also in the Opposition. There have been two speakers now without a speaker from the Government side.

With all due respect that is your problem.

That is why I did not want it to become a precedent because it could work in reverse on another occasion. If the Chair was allowing Deputy Mac Giolla to make his case that is fine. I had no objection, as long as we reverted to the pattern and no precedent was created.

I was not making any suggestion that Deputy Flynn created a precedent. That is why I thought it very generous of him to allow Deputy Mac Giolla to use some of the Opposition's time. I ask you to rule, Sir, on whether Deputy Bruton will be allowed to speak.

Acting Chairman

Under the rules he cannot insist on speaking.

The Minister knows that full well but he is trying to curtail our speaker from getting his full time.

As I was saying before I was interrupted, oil is the biggest input cost factor today——

On a point of order it was made very clear — Deputy Flynn said he did not want to create a precedent — that Deputy Mac Giolla was speaking in Opposition time. I ask you, Sir, to allow Deputy Bruton to make his statement before the proposer of the motion concludes.

Before the Ceann Comhairle left the Chamber I approached his desk with strict instructions to make it quite clear as to who the next speaker was, understanding that he had no option but to call on the main Opposition party Deputy, Deputy Byrne, to contribute. What happened? As soon as you finished speaking the Chairman upped and insisted that Deputy Mac Giolla be given time. It was completely irregular. It was for that reason and so as not to create a precedent that I made the point I did. As far as I am concerned, Deputy Byrne is in possession for the full time and that has been agreed by the Chair. I suggest that, without further interference, Deputy Byrne be allowed to continue.

I would not presume to advise the Chair, but Deputy Flynn's and the Opposition's quarrel with the Chair is a matter between the Opposition and the Chair. What I want to ensure is that the normal progression of speakers is followed and that on this occasion, as on all other occasion in debates on Private Members' motions, the Government put in their last speaker before the proposer of the motion concludes.

The Deputy should have opposed Deputy Mac Giolla.

I take it we will have injury time because of all this.

On a point of order I want your ruling, Sir, confirming the fact that Deputy Bruton will be allowed to speak.

As I was saying, oil is the biggest input cost factor today. There is a 2p per gallon rebate on oil used in this industry. This in itself is recognition of the fact that oil is a major cost——

On a point of order, I must ask for your ruling, Sir.

It is now time to realise what is happening all around us. We must make some effort——

Acting Chairman

There has been no order. Once Deputy Byrne is called he is entitled to his 30 minutes unless he gives way.

I must protest because the Chair has now made a ruling which involves Government time without having requested any agreement from the Government on whether another speaker would be allowed to speak. It was my clear understanding that Deputy Mac Giolla was speaking with the sufferance of Deputy Flynn.

He spoke on Government time. The Minister is abusing the Acting Chairman.

There has never been a case of an Opposition speaker speaking on Government time. I am asking the Chair to confirm that Deputy Bruton will be allowed to speak.

The Minister is behaving like a child.

Acting Chairman

The objection should have been made when Deputy Byrne started to speak.

That is a matter between the Chair and the Opposition.

Acting Chairman

No-one else offered to speak. I am now calling Deputy Byrne.

It is time to realise what is happening all around us and make some effort to encourage the growth of horticulture. The Government can do this by passing on the reduction in oil prices on the world market to the producers. It takes 35,000 gallons of oil to service one acre of glass. It is easy to understand how a small reduction in the price per gallon would give the necessary boost to an ailing industry and one which is fast diminishing. It is up to the Minister to wake up to the real facts of the present position. He must be aware that his grab all attitude will, as my colleague Deputy Connolly said last night, kill the goose that lays the golden egg. The Government can resolve the problem.

Acting Chairman

It is now 8.15 p.m. and I call on the proposer of the motion to conclude the debate.

May I make a concluding remark?

I do not propose to intervene in this matter again, but I give notice of my intention to take up with the Ceann Comhairle the complete disruption of the normal order in the treatment of this business tonight.

With the permission of the Chair I ask that Deputy Faulkner and I might share the time for the closing remarks.

We cannot have a situation where the Opposition invent the rules as they go along.

The Minister invents rules to suit himself.

I am afraid that the Minister is under a misapprehension. There is no such thing as Government time in Private Members' time.

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman

I am insisting on the proposer of the motion speaking now. If he finishes within the time I will call on someone from the Government side of the House.

Deputy Faulkner is concluding for the Opposition.

(Interruptions.)

On a point of order, the concluding speaker on a motion of this kind is the proposer of the motion and I ask you, Sir, to keep to your ruling that if Deputy Byrne is not followed by the proposer of the motion then a speaker from the Government side comes in.

The Minister is abusing the Acting Chairman in a dreadful manner.

I propose to deal with——

Acting Chairman

The concluder of a motion can either be the proposer or somebody nominated by one person——

The Minister shows a great lack of knowledge of the procedure of the House.

Is it one person or two?

Acting Chairman

One.

We must deal in a practical way with the problems which are facing the Border constituencies in relation to the enormous increase in the price of petrol. We now have the highest petrol prices in Europe as a result of the increases announced in January and the further increases announced in the budget. The effect of these increases on sales of petrol in my constituency, which is a Border county, is catastrophic.

What I have to say in relation to County Louth pertains to other Border counties as well.

Some petrol filling stations and garages along the Border have closed down. Others are on the point of closure and many more are operating on a short-time basis. The already serious unemployment situation in these areas is being exacerbated. It is clear that the Government in introducing enormous increases in petrol prices showed little concern and little understanding for the traumatic effect these increases would have on trade, commerce and tourism in the Border counties. Perhaps the fact that there is no Minister from the Border counties in the Government is reflected in that decision taken by them.

Some time ago I wrote to the Minister for Finance outlining the position of the owner of a garage in Dundalk faced with the exorbitant increases in petrol prices introduced by the Government. I did so to give the Minister some idea as to the manner in which these increases were undermining business in the Border areas and in the hope that he would introduce measures to alleviate the situation. I regret to say I have not even received an acknowledgement to my letter.

The young garage owner in question operates a 24-hour petrol service in Dundalk. At the beginning of January 1983 his sales averaged 8,000 gallons per week. The first petrol price increase was introduced by the Government early in January and, by 18 February 1983, sales had fallen to just over 3,000 gallons per week and at that point he was losing £50 per week on wages alone, without taking account of other overheads such as electricity and so on. Since then, the further increase in petrol prices resulting from increased VAT has further reduced his sales and his position has now become untenable. After the January increase, most of his petrol sales were made between 12 midnight and 8 a.m., simply because petrol stations in Northern Ireland are closed during the night.

A few more statistics from the Dundalk area will throw further light on the crisis there. A garage selling 6,000 gallons of petrol per week is now reduced to selling 1,500 gallons per week. This garage had sales of 800 gallons per week of motor diesel but it is now selling 200 gallons per week. Another garage selling 10,000 gallons of petrol per week is now reduced to selling 2,500 gallons, and sales of 2,000 gallons of motor diesel per week have been reduced to 200 gallons per week. In respect of the latter two garages, four men have been made redundant. Sales in a large garage in Dundalk have been halved but when I spoke to the owner, he told me they had been kept going to date by credit customers. I understand, however, they are now also pulling out. A garage with relatively large sales, situated 20 miles from the Border in my constituency, has had a drop of 25 per cent in sales. Drogheda is also adversely affected.

The figures I have given give some idea of the problem in my constituency, and these problems are to be found in every Border county. Garages in Border counties have, in many instances, stopped retaining people to look after petrol pumps because of the slump in sales. To appreciate fully the tremendous financial pressures resulting from the situation, one must also take into account the immense amount of money necessary to fill garage petrol tanks. A quick turnover in sales is necessary for survival. The pressure has been so great on the young man to whom I referred that he has had to rent out his repair workshop to the mechanic he had working for him, and he now foresees the business he worked so hard to build up crashing around him. Motorists in a large part of County Louth buy £2 worth of petrol to take them over the Border to fill their tanks.

In the Cooley Peninsula the situation is especially depressing. There are three filling stations in the Omeath area, two of which are now closed. On a recent Monday the total intake in petrol sales by the remaining filling station was £23, most of which was sales to official cars, and one other customer bought £2 worth of petrol to take him over the Border. A major worry in the Cooley Peninsula is that soon there will be neither garages nor filling stations open. Greenore port will be severly affected because of the extra transport costs and it will be cheaper to serve the Dublin market from the port across the lough in Northern Ireland. Hauliers from Liverpool will serve the market in Dublin at less cost than hauliers from the west of Ireland.

I have always been a strong advocate of buying Irish goods, especially those locally made. The long-term effects of buying goods outside the State will result in severe damage to our economy, causing unemployment and making jobs more insecure. When one takes account, however, of the fact that there is a saving of between £9 and £10 when filling a ten-gallon car tank with petrol in Northern Ireland, as compared with buying petrol in County Louth, and when one takes cognisance of the reduction in incomes here resulting from the recent budget, one can at least understand why so many people in Border areas avail of petrol at the cheaper price.

The need for immediate action by the Minister for Finance, who is responsible for the huge difference in price, must be obvious. The side effects of the exodus to Northern Ireland from Border counties to buy petrol are also very serious. The savings on petrol are used to buy goods in Northern Ireland, and the huge VAT increases make many types of goods there more attractive. As a result, there is a tremendous fall-off in trading in my constituency, especially in Dundalk and surrounding areas. It is depressing to find shops that were, until recently, hives of industry having few customers. Cross-Border trading is having a serious effect on employment in Border areas, and, as time goes on, this situation will be exacerbated unless action is taken now.

The depressing conditions being experienced in my constituency are also being felt in all Border counties. The Dundalk Democrat said recently that they disliked using such dismal and morbid descriptions as ghost towns but, if things continued as they were, they believed that that adjective would not be too dramatic or exaggerated to describe in a few years' time a group of once thriving and bustling towns stretching along the Border from Dundalk to the top of Donegal.

Those words describe the feelings and the fears of business people in my constituency. I wonder if the Minister and the Government took account, when preparing the budget proposals, of the loss of revenue which is resulting from his tax impositions. If he did, it is logical to assume that the general level of taxation is higher than it need be. Would it not have been more sensible to have introduced a lower level of taxation on petrol so as to make it less attractive to buy petrol and other goods in Northern Ireland? I am in full agreement with this motion but as a representative of a Border constituency, I have to ask for much more. While the implementation of this motion would help to some extent, there is a strong case to be made for other worthwhile concessions by the Government to help people trading in Border counties.

There are many other aspects of this petrol price problem which lack of time prevents me from dealing with, such as tourism in Border areas. The cost of living has soared in towns in my constituency because of the recent tax increases imposed by the Government which are far above the cost of living in Northern Ireland, resulting in trade and business being drained northwards with consequent further job losses. Because of this, immediate action must be taken by the Minister. Having read the amendment put forward by the Minister for Finance, I have not got very much hope, but, perhaps, having listened to the statements which have been made by speakers on this side of the House, he might at least reconsider his position. Increased petrol prices have had a catastrophic effect on business in Border areas, not only because of the increase in the price of petrol but because of the fact that this increase encourages people to cross the Border and to spend their money on a variety of other goods which, if circumstances were different, they might have bought at home. I, therefore, recommend the motion in the name of the Fianna Fáil Party.

Question put: "That amendment No. 1 be made."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 75; Níl, 67.

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Myra.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Bermingham, Joe.
  • Birmingham, George Martin.
  • Boland, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick Mark.
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Martin Austin.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • McLoughlin, Frank.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molony, David.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • (Limerick East).
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Brien, Willie.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dowling, Dick.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Glenn, Alice.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Hussey, Gemma.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Prendergast, Frank.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.
  • Skelly, Liam.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Andrews, Niall.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Browne, John.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Colley, George.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Cowen, Bernard.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Fitzsimons, Jim.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat Cope.
  • Gregory-Independent, Tony.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael.
  • Lemass, Eileen.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Noonan, Michael J.
  • (Limerick West).
  • O'Dea, William.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Edmond.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • Ormonde, Donal.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Barrett(Dún Laoghaire) and Taylor; Níl, Deputies B. Ahern and V. Brady.
Amendment declared carried.
Amendment No. 2 not moved.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.
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