asked the Minister for the Public Service the present position regarding the proposed decentralisation of part of the Department of Justice to Killarney, County Kerry. t
4.
Ceisteanna—Questions . Oral Answers . - Decentralisation Programme .
3.
asked the Minister for the Public Service if he will elaborate on the announcement that the Government had decided to cancel the decentralisation programme.
5.
asked the Minister for the Public Service the plans he has for the decentralisation of part of the Department of Agriculture to Cavan town.
6.
asked the Minister for the Public Service when the tenders for the proposed offices under the decentralisation programme will be sanctioned for Sligo and Ballina, County Mayo.
7.
asked the Minister for the Public Service the present position in regard to the proposed decentralisation of a further section of the Department of Education to Athlone, County Westmeath.
: I propose to take Questions Nos. 3 to 7, inclusive, together.
As announced in the Principal Features of the Budget as presented on 9 February 1983, the decentralisation programme has been cancelled. The saving in 1983 will be £5 million and the cost in subsequent years would have been a further £40 million.
: When the Minister refers to a saving of £5 million and a further saving of £40 million, has he completely disregarded the tenders that were submitted for building the offices at the various locations? Does he consider that there should not be decentralisation at this time in places like Ballina, Sligo and Athlone? Does he not think it would be a substantial injection to the building industry in places like Ballina, which he knows so well?
: In the first part of the Deputy's question he refers to privatisation. A detailed reply on that is a matter for the Minister for Finance. However, privatisation proposals were, in fact, sought in addition to conventional tenders for offices in five of the proposed centres and the economic cost of these proposals was far more expensive, it would seem, than if the money were borrowed by the State and the buildings constructed by the Office of Public Works.
The use of public funds to stimulate the construction industry is a matter for the Minister for the Environment in the first instance, but I do know that the Government and the Tánaiste are very concerned about the state of the building industry and concerned about providing a stimulus for it, subject to the availability of funds. Obviously care would have to be taken that any public works involved would be essential high priority projects in their own right which are likely to generate a return to the economy as a whole sufficient to justify the expenditure involved.
: Am I right in assuming then that this Government and this Minister have no commitment to a programme of decentralisation? I cannot accept that it is anybody's responsibility other than that of the Minister for the Public Service. Would he outline what his Government's position on decentralisation is?
: The Deputy must know it is inevitable that in times of harsh economic recession certain expensive State projects must be shelved or curtailed and it is a matter for the Government of the day, given the extreme scarcity of funds, to determine priorities within its public expenditure programme. In relation to the provision of centres in different provincial areas, that would be a matter for the Government of the day and the basic question will still be whether the relocation of 3,000 civil servants merits public expenditure on the scale required. As the Minister for the Public Service would say, it would of course be a task for him to oversee and co-ordinate such a programme. The Deputy must realise that in current times of severe recession this kind of expenditure cannot be undertaken.
: God help Ballina and Sligo when the Minister is around.
: Arising out of the Minister's reply and comments made by the Taoiseach in Cork last week at a press conference, would the Minister tell us exactly what is the situation with regard to An Foras Forbartha? Are they being transferred to Cork or are they not, because there appears to be some confusion?
: That is the subject matter of a different question.
: It comes under the heading of decentralisation.
: Is the Minister aware of how advanced the decentralisation plans for Athlone were, that they had already gone out to tender? The Minister, like myself, comes from a rural constituency. Is he not aware of the enormous social implications involved in decentralisation? It is not just a matter of finance for the building. Many young people wish to return to their home town and to contribute to the economic and social environment of their town.
: Much of the money spent by the previous Government has been spent on good building land and could not be said to be a write-off. It is a question of the availability of the kind of funds that are necessary to complete this project of decentralisation. We are talking here of a sum in the region of £40 million. I am aware of the demands of the young people who are seeking transfers from Dublin city to the provinical areas but up to now no civil servant has been selected for transfer on the basis of the plan laid down. It has always been made clear that only volunteers would be sought when the buildings were approaching completion. No commitments have been entered into in relation to young people's transfers.
: Is the Minister aware of the number of young men and women who leave Dublin each Friday evening to return to their own home towns and is the Minister also aware——
: I am calling Deputy Calleary.
: —— of the large finances which could be usefully expended in building?
: Surely that is another question. I am calling Deputy Calleary.
: Is the Minister aware that in the public service there are lists of up to some hundred or so people looking for transfers to Mayo and is he also aware in relation to Sligo and Ballina that the rents being asked on the completion of these buildings in 1985 are considerably less than those being paid at the moment in Dublin? The Minister spoke about it being shelved. Is it shelved or cancelled? If it is cancelled will he leave the land there so that Fianna Fáil can do with it what should be done with it when they come back to power very shortly?
: In relation to the cost, it now transpires that the cost of the offices that were supposed to be built in these areas is no less than what it is at the moment in Dublin. I would have expected it would have been less but the fact is that for some reason it is not less.
: Is the Minister aware that many hundreds working in the public service in Dublin have been making representations over the years to every Deputy to be considered for transfer as soon as this decentralisation programme first came up? That is No. 1. I do not accept, and the Minister must be aware of this, that £40 million will be saved. The Minister for Finance is beside him. That figure is pure nonsense. That is a smokescreen. The Minister must surely be aware of the hundreds of people who are travelling to and from their homes each week who wish to be employed in their own areas. Is the Minister further aware — he is from a town where one of the offices would employ 200 people — of how important this would be to the economy in the area? Finally, is the Minister aware that the cost of these offices — and I challenge anybody to debate this — is negligible in comparison to the cost of expensive office accommodation required in Dublin?
: The Deputy must not make a speech.
: In view of that will he allow the decentralisation programme to go ahead this year?
: I am well aware of the demand for transfers. Every Deputy is aware of it. Seeing that one of these facilities would be provided in my own town I should like to see the project going ahead, but we simply have not got the finances to do it. In regard to the doubt being cast on the total cost, my information is that it is probably more than that over a period.
: Nonsense, utter nonsense.
: The Deputy may say it is nonsense but the fact is it will be more when one takes the inflationary aspect into consideration. In relation to the availability of office space in this city, for the first time in our history we are coming to grips with the numbers in the public service and there is now for the first time a reduction in numbers. We have adequate office space, whether owned or on long lease, and the fact is that as of now there is no crying need for the provision of office space elsewhere. The Government would now find it difficult to let the office space we own or hold on a long lease. The demand is not there. It is not a question of replacing office space in provincial towns. It is not a question of adding further office space to office space already available to us.
: Deputy John O'Leary, Deputy Wilson and Deputy F. Fahey, and that is it, in that order.
: Is the Minister aware that Dublin is top heavy and would he weigh the benefits of decentralisation to the west and to towns like Killarney against the planning, environmental and traffic problems arising in this city as a result of its being overpopulated?
: The Deputy is well aware that I am at one with him in his assertion regarding the top heaviness of Dublin, but the fact is we have not got the finances — and the Deputy knows as well as I do why we have not got them.
: The finances are there in the private sector.
: I have stated that the cost to the Exchequer of this project of decentralisation. The figure is £5 million for this year and £40 million in the long-term plus.
(Interruptions.)
: Order. Deputy Wilson.
: In view of the fact that the Minister has admitted a stimulus is needed in the construction industry and in view of the fact that in Border areas his colleague, the Minister for Finance, introduced a commercial tilley budget — that is all I can describe it as and he knows that well because he is getting representations about it — and in view of the fact that the money is available for the construction——
: The Deputy may not make a speech.
: ——will the Minister now use his influence in the Government to try to have this decentralisation programme got under way again? Finally, will he read the reply of his colleague, Deputy Birmingham, Minister of State, yesterday about the unemployment situation, particularly among young people, as revealed in statistics from the Manpower office in Cavan indicating yet another reason why this decentralisation programme should be got under way?
: In answer to Deputy Wilson's statement — and it was a statement providing the assertion he made was a correct one, he said the money is available — I have already said, and I repeat it now, the money is not available.
: I shall call the Minister's bluff.
: If the money were available——
(Interruptions.)
: Order. I am calling Deputy Fahey.
: Does the Minister consider the amount of unused office space available in the city, or unoccupied office space, according to recent publicity to be a waste of public funds and is he also aware that in my constituency and in his constituency and in many towns in rural areas the construction industry is in a position to provide office accommodation at approximately £30 per square foot and are ready to do so? If there is money available for office accommodation that accommodation could now be provided more cheaply.
: A question, Deputy.
: The Deputy asked a question initially to which I shall give a reply. I am aware of what the Deputy said in relation to other matters but I repeat that if the money were available this project would be undertaken.
(Interruptions.)
: Order. I am moving on to the next question.
: Would the Chair allow a short question?
: We have spent 20 minutes on these questions. We are now having repetition. I have ruled and I am standing by my ruling.
: What I have to ask is not repetition.
: I am calling on the Minister to answer the next question.
: I wish to ask a specific question. Is the Chair not concerned about Cavan town?
: I have been trying for 15 minutes to put one short question.
: I am adhering to my ruling.
: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply I wish to raise the matter on the Adjournment.
: The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.