I move: "That Deputy Lyons be suspended from the service of the Dáil."
Private Members' Business. - Suspension of Member.
(Interruptions.)
I am doing the naming.
May I ask a question?
Yes.
Is it in order for a Minister of State to name a Deputy in the House?
I will do the naming and he will do the proposing.
On a point of order, I asked a simple question. I heard you call on the Minister of State to name the Deputy. Is it in order for a Minister of State to name a Deputy in the House?
It is the Chair who names the Deputy and any Member of the House can then propose his suspension. It does not even have to be a Minister. Look at the Standing Order.
Could we have the Standing Order?
The question is that Deputy Lyons be suspended.
Could we have the Standing Order?
He has not got it.
I hope I will get injury time. This is most unfair. The Deputy spoke last night and he was not interrupted.
I want to tell the Minister of State that there are children in Donegal who have tickets——
I am putting the question without argument that Deputy Lyons be suspended.
I asked for the Standing Order relating to the naming of the Deputy.
Deputies in favour say Tá and Deputies against say Níl.
Could we have the Standing Order?
I am putting the question: "That Deputy Lyons be suspended from the service of the Dáil."
May I ask who proposed that motion?
Strictly speaking, that is not in order. It was proposed by the Minister of State, Deputy Creed.
I did not hear him.
Has it not always been the practice in this House and the precedent under the rules of the Chair that the Ceann Comhairle would be in the Chair and that a Minister of the Government would move the suspension of a Member of the House?
No, there is certainly nothing in the Standing Orders about that and my advice is that an ordinary Member can move it.
It might not be in Standing Orders. There are a lot of things not in Standing Orders but they are in the rulings and the precedents of this House. Is this a new precedent?
I am advised that there is nothing to prevent me doing what I have done and that I am in order. We must get on with it. I have explained——
It seems that we have no alternative but to vote on this motion and I want to make it absolutely clear that that is against our wishes. We have not in this party ever voted on an issue of this sort. It is, from our point of view, a very unhappy incident and we regret it very much. But we feel that we have been, through no fault of ours on this side of the House, put into this false position.
(Interruptions.)
Order, please. It is certainly no pleasure for the Chair to do this. We were in a limited debate and it had been agreed to divide the time within the parties, notwithstanding Standing Orders. There was interruption after interruption coming and there was point of order after point of order which was not a point of order. I appealed and I warned and I had no alternative and I think any fair-minded people in the House will agree with that. We will have to get on with the vote.
I accept that, unfortunately, we now have to get on with it and, unfortunately, we will have to vote against the expulsion; but again I want to assure the House and the Republic that we feel this was not necessary and need not have happened.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
Order, please.
I support your right to impose order but I believe the way the events have happened and the naming of the Deputy has brought about a voting situation which we did not wish.
We should not have this discussion. I asked the Deputy concerned to desist, I asked him to resume his seat, I warned him that if he did not resume his seat I would have to ask him to leave the House. I did ask him to leave the House. The motion for his suspension was proposed. I said that I thought the motion was carried and a division was challenged from that end of the House and that is the position we are in.
On a point of order, I want to ask one question. In the matter of the question that has been put by you to the House will the official record show that Minister of State, Deputy Creed, actually made that proposal?
I do not know. I cannot anticipate the record of the House but I am saying now that Minister of State Creed did propose that Deputy Denis Lyons be suspended from the service of the House.
(Interruptions.)
On a point of order——
Strictly speaking, these points of order are not in order.
Just one. Before there was any mover of the motion you speak about I asked who was naming the Deputy. I asked whether the Minister of State was naming the Deputy. You said you were naming him yourself. In reply to Deputy Tunney you now say that Deputy Creed moved the motion.
Yes. The Chair names the Deputy and a Member proposes that he be suspended. Vótáil, please. Get on with the vote.
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 65; Níl, 61.
Tá
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barnes, Monica.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Barry, Myra.
- Barry, Peter.
- Begley, Michael.
- Bermingham, Joe.
- Birmingham, George Martin.
- Boland, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Burke, Liam.
- Carey, Donal.
- Cluskey, Frank.
- Collins, Edward.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Coogan, Fintan.
- Cooney, Patrick Mark.
- Cosgrave, Liam T.
- Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
- Coveney, Hugh.
- Creed, Donal.
- Crowley, Frank.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Deasy, Mark Austin.
- Desmond, Barry.
- Desmond, Eileen.
- Donnellan, John.
- Dowling, Dick.
- Doyle, Avril.
- Doyle, Joe.
- Dukes, Alan.
- Durkan, Bernard J.
- Farrelly, John V.
- Fennell, Nuala.
- Glenn, Alice.
- Harte, Patrick D.
- Hegarty, Paddy.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kenny, Enda.
- L'Estrange, Gerry.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- McLoughlin, Frank.
- Manning, Maurice.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Molony, David.
- Moynihan, Michael.
- Naughten, Liam.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East)
- O'Brien, Fergus.
- O'Brien, Willie.
- O'Donnell, Tom.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- O'Toole, Paddy.
- Owen, Nora.
- Prendergast, Frank.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Ryan, John.
- Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.
- Skelly, Liam.
- Taylor, Mervyn.
- Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Treacy, Seán.
- Yates, Ivan.
Níl
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Andrews, David.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Barrett, Michael.
- Barrett, Sylvester.
- Brennan, Mattie.
- Brennan, Paudge.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, John.
- Fitzgerald, Gene.
- Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
- Fitzsimons, Jim.
- Flynn, Pádraig.
- Foley, Denis.
- Gallagher, Pat Cope.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Harney, Mary.
- Haughey, Charles J.
- Hilliard, Colm.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Lemass, Eileen.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Leyden, Terry.
- Lyons, Denis.
- McCarthy, Seán.
- MacSharry, Ray.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Calleary, Seán.
- Conaghan, Hugh.
- Connolly, Ger.
- Coughlan, Cathal Seán.
- Cowen, Bernard.
- Daly, Brendan.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Fahey, Francis.
- Fahey, Jackie.
- Moynihan, Donal.
- Nolan, M. J.
- Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West)
- O'Dea, William.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Edmond.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Desmond J.
- Ormonde, Donal.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- Power, Paddy.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Tunney, Jim.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Walsh, Seán.
- Wilson, John P.
- Woods, Michael.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Barrett (Dún Laoghaire) and Taylor; Níl, Deputies B. Ahern and Briscoe.
Question declared carried.