Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 24 Jun 1983

Vol. 344 No. 2

Estimates 1983. - Vote 37: Agriculture (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £245,764,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1983, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain subsidies and sundry grants-in-aid.
—(Minister for Agriculture)

There has been another significant and welcome development in south west Cork where a local co-operative AI station has become involved in the provision of a service for the collection and delivery of reactor animals. This service has proved very successful to date. I would like to see the pilot scheme principle extended to other areas and I would welcome co-operatives becoming involved on a larger scale in the provision of a service for the collection and delivery of reactor animals. Should this happen, I have no doubt that it will contribute enormously to the disease eradication programme. This getting together for the elimination of disease has proved very significant in the two instances I have mentioned. A large part of the problems of disease has been a certain amount of carelessness through animals being carted around in filthy trucks. Farmers are now interested in co-operating to get rid of this terrible disease which is costing the taxpayers a lot of money and is of great concern to the State. We are not making the inroads we should into this disease but I hope that will change.

Spectacular progress continues to be made in the eradication of brucellosis with animal incidence now down to 0.10 per cent compared with 0.39 per cent at the end of the 1981-82 round of testing. With this rate of progress there is now a realistic expectation that this disease can be eliminated in the next five years.

As Deputies will be aware, cutbacks in ACOT's services, unfortunately but inevitably, had to be made this year in line with the measures required generally by the Government to put the State's finances in order. In fact, the phasing out of ACOT's advisory services in amenity horticulture, poultry and farm home management was decided by the previous Government in the context of the 1983 Estimates and endorsed by the present Government. The basis of the decision was that these are low priority services having regard to the difficult budgetary situation.

I am happy to say, however, that it has been found possible to modify the original decision, which will, I believe, enable ACOT to provide an effective training and advisory service to commercial poultry and horticultural producers as well as to farm families on a range of agricultural issues. The outcome is that the impact of the decision both in relation to the services provided and the number of posts to be phased out — 57 now as against 140 initially — is considerable less severe than that which would have resulted from the original decision of the previous Government. Already ACOT, appreciating that the service is now limited, have decided to see how best this limited service could be utilised fully. Much more use will be made of the centres in getting people and housewives in to meet the instructresses and the farm home advisers and to carry out various courses in farm home management and poultry matters as is the case in quite a number of areas at the moment.

ACOT's grant-in-aid for general purposes also reflects the decision taken to phase out aid to the rural home economics colleges. I am pleased to say, however, that arrangements have now been made for ACOT to continue to fund the colleges on a basis which will enable them to operate for a further school year ending in June 1984. Possible future uses for the colleges after that are currently being discussed by the managements with ACOT, but I must stress that there can be no commitment as to State funding for such new courses as may be proposed. Nevertheless, I am hopeful that a satisfactory solution will be arrived at.

I am deeply interested in the horticultural industry and I share the widespread concern about the increasing level of imports of fruit and vegetables which we could produce ourselves. To meet this competition I am convinced that better organisation and co-operation among growers is essential. In this regard I welcome the steps being taken by the IFA to organise growers at local and regional levels so as to plan and co-ordinate production and marketing. This initiative can be expanded by developing viable producer groups and aid is available from the Department towards setting up such groups. In addition, horticultural products figure prominently in the work of the inter-departmental committee who are currently monitoring imports. The Department's horticulture development group have recently been reappointed for a further three-year term and will continue their examination of the problems besetting the industry.

Regarding the IFA's proposed potato marketing authority, we had meetings with the IFA as recently as yesterday, and Members opposite will be glad to know that we are going fairly quickly down the road of agreement with regard to this potato marketing body which will be based on co-operative lines and eventually will be self-financing. It will have a register of growers and will also be insisting on such things as identification of growers. Each grower will have his name and number on his bag of potatoes. There is general acceptance now that the only sensible method, the only sound way to deal with imports is to take on importers at their own game. We believe that with a co-ordinated approach and under a sort of central discipline — which discipline did not come from the Ministry or the Department, it is being demanded by the growers themselves — this enterprise will be successful. We all know farmers. If you try to impose something on them they will resist it, but if they come up with something themselves then it is a totally different ball game. All we are doing at this stage is offering them all the help and technical advice in the Department, who are working very closely with the ICOS in formulating the co-operative. On the assumption that we would be ready for, possibly, even the main crop, we hope, for the coming year anyway, to have a northern market. They accept that imports are necessary during parts of the year and also that they must compete with imports, but I think they are happy that they have a product which can compete with imports. They are also satisfied that the whole industry lacks this sort of discipline and that in future the supermarket owner can be assured when he is buying an Irish product under the new brand name, Golden Wonders or whatever they decide to call it, this brand will be a guarantee of quality. The consumer at the moment is aware that she is doing a certain amount of harm to the economy when she buys something that is imported. We have been reassured by the supermarkets that if we can present the housewife with a good Irish product she will go for the Irish product. There is an awareness of the damage that imports are doing to the economy and there is no EEC law which says that you may not buy Irish products if the Irish products are there. We hope that these Irish products will be there, they will be in net bags and they will be almost identical with what is coming in from abroad. Let us hope they will be successful.

Regarding horticulture generally, at one stage we had thought to tie in all horticultural products into this type of co-operative, but because so much work was done on the potato scene the IFA thought that it would be better to go ahead with one product and that we could follow on with a further co-operative which would deal with the glasshouse industry and other horticultural products. As Members probably saw in the farming papers, a horticultural committee has been formed, which does not include potatoes but which includes the glasshouse industry, and they are proceeding along the same lines. The important thing about this is that we are getting good co-operation from the merchants. There is no point in talking to the farmers in isolation, to the supermarkets in isolation or to the merchants in isolation. In the last few days we have met the fruit importers and merchants and they too are proving to be very helpful. They say that once they get a proper product, continuity of supply and good quality, they certainly will only be too pleased to purchase this product.

There is an anomaly with regard to the way they deal with the Irish customer vis-à-vis the Dutch and that is something we will have to look at. In fact, when tomatoes, or any horticultural products, come from Holland they must be paid for in cash. They deal with the Irish customer differently; it is on a commission basis. Obviously, if one has to pay for tomatoes from Holland one will endeavour to sell them. That is a natural reaction. One then pursues the Commission after that. There is a hurdle to overcome but I believe we can succeed.

With the co-operation we are getting, it should be possible to continue on the same lines with horticultural produce as with potatoes. It cannot be over-emphasised that we are doing ourselves a lot of harm by importing so much produce. Minister of State Connaughton's proposal with regard to land leasing can help. It may be possible for a group of farmers to lease small quantities of land over a long period for the construction of plastic tunnels to grow horticultural produce. It may be possible for them to organise a certralised heating system and secretariat. Land leasing would be a great help to young people who do not have land but have been trained in horticulture. The markets exist and we have the ability to grow the produce. Technology has advanced substantially over the years with the result that perishable goods can be held under controlled conditions for a long period.

An extension of the potato co-operative movement would be desirable in this area. Producer groups could be established in areas like Monaghan, Wexford or Cork. I accept that some large growers are in a position to provide their own facilities for the brushing and grading of potatoes but many producers are not. Producer groups, under the aegis of co-operatives, could carry out such work at different venues. I hope a scheme on those lines will be adopted fairly soon. I agree with the Member who suggested that we should avail of EEC funding. I accept that there were restrictions and we were not able to avail of such funds but in this area FEOGA grants are quite flaithiuil. We should avail of that aid. I will keep the Opposition fully informed on a day-to-day basis of the progress in regard to potato and horticultural co-operatives. I may be seeking their support at the all-party committees that may be established.

The glasshouse sector, notably tomato production, has been affected more than most by increases in production costs, particularly the cost of fuel. The possibilities of making natural gas, which could provide a cheaper source of energy available to this sector are being examined. In addition, financial assistance has been made available towards the employment of a market co-ordinator for glasshouse crops. I would strongly urge growers to support fully this initiative which I see as a valuable means of improving the marketing of the tomato crop. That is all the more important when one considers that although we are almost into the month of July we are not able to supply our market with tomatoes. That is a serious situation. Admittedly they are attracting a very good price now but that is another reason why the market place should be supplied by home producers. I hope the natural gas proposals go ahead because they would assist the growers in north County Dublin. The above measures are an indication of the Government's concern and their interest in assisting the various sectors of the horticultural industry to expand production and secure a greater share of the market.

I should like to give the House some good news. One of my happiest achievements has been in the milk recording area. For a number of years we have been trying to standardise milking recording, something that is vital to our dairy herds and the future of our dairy industry. We have launched an Irish dairies co-op with central offices and computer services in Bandon. That has been well received. Records of any pedigree stock are now available on computer and can be obtained with the minimum of difficulty. Another important advancement, because of our ties with the UK, is that we have access to the UK computers. It is now possible to track down the records of dairy herds on both islands and that is important.

It would be remiss of me if I did not pay a special tribute to CBF who have done tremendous work in the promotion of our meat industry. In my dealings with them, from the general mnanager to the staff, I found them to be very efficient. Their performance in Frankfurt was superb. I had the pleasure of being with them at their stand and the vacuumpacked meat on display there was a credit to the country and CBF. It was not surprising that they got substantial orders for their produce. Nobody should begrudge the comparatively small funding to CBF and Deputies on all sides would be well advised to familiarise themselves with what the board are doing on behalf of the Irish meat industry. Their contribution is substantial and as a result our meat industry is making a lot of money.

Our cattle trade generally was dealt with by the Minister and the Minister of State. There is a great future for beef production here and the only problem I see is that the margin of profit is getting smaller. Our best markets are the British supermarkets and the German butchers but there is a substantial amount of unemployment in those countries and people cannot afford to pay the very high prices. The result is that we must keep our margin of profit down. That is all the more reason why we should continue to emphasise the importance of good quality breeding particularly in view of the fact that bull licensing is to disappear. There may be a tendency when that happens to use bulls of inferior quality in spite of the fact that we have a subsidised AI scheme. I hope farmers do not fall into that trap.

I should like to remind the Minister of State that ten other Members are anxious to contribute to the debate between now and 1.30 p.m.

I will conclude now. I hope it will not be necessary to adopt a tough line on the use of such bulls but that will be done if necessary. I recommend the Estimate to the House.

Mr. Leonard

I listened to the Minister's detailed contribution and I am amazed at how his officials can put such a gloss and respectable air on our agricultural policy and our expectations for the future. We welcome some of the matters in the Minister's speech but at a time when manufacturing industry is suffering we should turn to agriculture to pick up the slack because it has great potential. Sufficient money is not being channelled into agriculture at a time when that industry has the potential to give the country the boost it needs.

When we look back over the last ten years since our entry into the EEC we must be disappointed at what we have achieved. I feel they were ten wasted years in agriculture and that we should have made much better use of them. If we want to be positive in our approach to agriculture there are three things we must always keep in mind, productivity, marketing and finance. We need finance to set up those developments and assist many farmers who are in a bad position. We have fallen down on productivity. In my constituency they were top of the league in milk production but in answer to a Dáil question I found out that the average yield is 680 gallons and many have 1,200 gallons. It is a pity this cannot be levelled up. Recently Gerry Boyle writing in Farm and Food Research spoke about 46 per cent of the land not being utilised. We need to examine those things.

In 1972 20 per cent of the population were employed in agriculture and in 1981, when we should have been creating that employment, we were down to 17 per cent. In 1973 agriculture accounted for 18.5 per cent of the gross national product and in 1980 it was 11.5 per cent. The most depressing thing is the answers we get in reply to Dáil questions in relation to the amount of imports. It is really alarming. We had a discusion on the pig industry and the problems facing pig producers recently and we found out that 6,400 tonnes of pork and bacon were imported in 1982. There were 300,300 tonnes of broilers imported in the same year and £26 million of potatoes were imported. I am glad to see from the Minister's speech that this will be reversed this year. A total of £100 million of fruit and vegetables were imported. A large percentage of that could have been produced here. Hundreds of millions of pounds of other foodstuffs are imported every other year. When one looks at the statistical returns one wonders if we are using any of our own produce at all.

We discovered during the past week that 96 per cent of our hides are exported unprocessed. Our hides were bad years ago because of the damage done by warbles. This has been eliminated and now we have, possibly, the best quality hides but we are sending them out of the country while our tanneries are closing down. The agricultural economists should look seriously at those figures. Grassland enterprises comprise about 75 per cent of our output in this area and pigs only account for 8.1 per cent, poultry 2.1 per cent and eggs 1.1 per cent. Farming enterprise will have to receive some return if we are to provide work for our people and if we are to provide the produce for manufacturing in the food processing area. It was done years ago when we had the family farm enterprises. We are doing this now to a greater extent in my constituency than in most others in the poultry field. When there are massive imports of poultry and eggs there must be potential for substantial exports of those products if this is properly developed.

The Minister and the Ministers of State should go to Monaghan and examine the duck, turkey and broiler production. It is great credit to the entrepreneurs who started this. This is in an area where there are no labour troubles and those people have given a new lease of life to that area. Recently, in relation to the mushroom industry, men from that area went out to negotiate markets and examine production methods in other European countries. The top men in the food processing and the poultry processing fields should have a discussion with those men because they have gained great knowledge, put it to great use and provided employment in my constituency.

We heard last night that plastic tunnels for use in horticulture only accounted for 4 per cent of our imports. It is not only that 4 per cent which we should consider; it is the labour content in that percentage which counts. It is the amount of labour it would take to provide that percentage against 1 per cent in beef and milk production which should be considered. This area has great potential for job creation.

There has been much talk about the £9 million for western drainage. That is not adequate. The Minister and his officials should get more money from Brussels. In reply to a Dáil question in May 1983 we were told that the number of applicants for grant aid on the waiting list on 31 December 1982 was 14,163. In my constituency, the second highest after Mayo, there were 2,259 applications. There is a delay of two years and they are only dealing now with 1981. People will not apply now because they feel there is no hope of getting money or they will have to wait for a very long period. When this started it was a very good scheme.

Many speakers have spoken about the general disappointment about the £300 million western package over a ten-year period. The people are being held up in relation to this. Only a small percentage of the land has been attended to so far. I hope a greater effort will be made. We can be asked where the money is to come from. I realise as much as anybody the financial restrictions at the moment. If we got the money on a long-term loan basis a lot of work could be done in relation to this. I do not believe in borrowing money long-term to pay shortterm. I believe in borrowing long-term for the long-term benefit of the country in relation to major developments like providing facilities for processing products and things like that.

A serious situation has arisen in regard to the farm modernisation scheme. I shall not talk about its withdrawal. We are told it will be reinstated. When it is being reinstated in all probability its structure, its qualifying limits and so on will be changed. In this connection I would ask the Department to recognise the plight of people all over the country who had carried out development work which had not received approval and who fell by the wayside on 9 February. There are thousands of them. I cannot give the figure for County Monaghan — people come continuously to me at my clinics — but in Cavan they have quantified the figure and it is in excess of 200. Recently we received a letter from ACOT pointing out the serious financial consequences for more than 200 farmers as a result of the abolition of grant aid under this scheme. They were seeking support and commitment to ensure that development farmers would not be caught by this suspension.

The farm modernisation scheme needs to be changed in many ways. I have been critical of it over the years and have felt it should have been kept under constant review. There is great need also to provide housing for our livestock, with over 50 per cent of them out on the ground for most of the year. There are many other areas warranting examination. I would ask the Minister not to have the scheme so restrictive that people who went ahead with development work are not recognised, those who had not received official approval, for example, if an agricultural inspector or farm modernisation scheme officer was busy in all probability he said to the farmer, "I know your set-up, I will be out to you in a couple of weeks". Hundreds of farmers were caught in that way. I would ask the Department to recognise that problem and be sympathetic with such people.

The most important task facing us at present is to ensure that farmers work to a plan over a six-, eight- or ten-year period and ACOT advisers should be guiding them along those lines. I believe also those advisers should be involved in the minimum amount of office work in their offices. Rather they should devote their time and energy to on-the-farm planning. That should be their priority. At all times they should be appealing to farmers to keep records so that they know their profits or losses, as the case may be.

In western areas in particular, and perhaps all over the country, all possible aid should be given to encourage farmers to make and use better quality silage. We fell down on this score also. People thought all they had to do was to cut grass, throw it under canvas, throw a little additive on it and they had silage. But farmers must plan, they must grow quality grass; good grass makes good silage; bad grass makes bad silage. That must be emphasised. The only way to conserve an adequate amount of winter feeding is through the making of silage.

There was mention of the Common Agricultural Policy which has been under pressure very frequently. It is most important that that policy be maintained. There was mention also of meat plants. There is enormous potential in our meat plants especially with their labour content. Those owners of meat plants, who received substantial grants in recent years, should be sufficiently responsible to ensure a continuity of supply. There appear to be plants in various areas where, at every opportunity, they put their produce into intervention. On reading through the Minister's remarks it will be seen that while intervention can be most beneficial in times of over production it can also have damaging effects in that meat or milk producers are inclined to take the easy way out, putting their produce into intervention, drawing the money, off-loading their problem onto the State or the EEC rather than going out and selling their produce on the open market. There must be a diversification of dairy products. Creameries cannot continue to churn their milk into butter, dropping it into intervention, when there is then the problem of its disposal. We must ensure that every possible aid is given to individual producers, co-operatives and others who will go out and sell their produce rather than take the easy way out of intervention.

I thank the Minister and the Whips for having facilitated us, allowing each of us an opportunity to make a contribution on this Estimate. I am glad also that the Minister of State, Deputy Hegarty, is going ahead with the potato and vegetable group producers proposal. I know he will ensure that as much as possible will be processed. The haphazard system of marketing our vegetables is in need of urgent change.

I thank Ministers for having afforded us the opportunity of contributing to this debate. The reason our agriculture has suffered so much in recent years was because of increased inflation, running anything from 15 per cent, 18 per cent, 20 per cent to 23 per cent. That has been the real killer for many farmers, those in my constituency and indeed in many others also, farmers who have found themselves in severe financial difficulty. With interest rates going through the roof as well, as high as 20 per cent and 22 per cent, it was impossible for those farmers to compete, or even have a decent opportunity to make a return on their original borrowing. Over the past four years we have seen the situation grow out of all proportion. Indeed, with our inflation rate going into single figures this month for the first time since 1978 I do not see our financial institutions reducing interest rates to perhaps 12 per cent, or 13 per cent, which they might well do at present.

I am very disappointed with institutions such as the ACC, the banks and others who made enormous profits in recent years and who have made no effort to reduce interest rates on borrowings, especially on term loans which run between 17.5 per cent and 18.5 per cent at present. We are all aware that no industry, whether it be farming or any other, can afford to pay that kind of interest and, at the same time, the principal on their borrowings. It is time those people charged a proper interest rate to farmers and others, people who are prepared to put their shoulder to the wheel and do their utmost for their industry and country. I do not think they can continue to pay a rate of 18 per cent. Inflation is down and it is anticipated that by this time next year it will be half the current rate. There is a good case for reducing interest rates. Farmers in financial difficulties should be given a chance to hold on to their farms. They should not be put out of business because interest rates have gone through the roof in the past few years.

All Deputies would like to see more money provided in the Estimate for Agriculture but having regard to the stringent times in which we live, the Ministers concerned with agriculture must be complimented on what they have achieved. I hope that by the end of this year some of the policies they are pursuing will come to fruition.

With regard to the marketing of our agricultural produce on the home market, we have a major role to play in ensuring that it is presented in an attractive way. The Irish people must be convinced that the produce from this country is just as good as imported food. The potato industry is a matter of major concern to people in my constituency. If we want to compete with Dutch imports as well as potatoes imported from Cyprus and elsewhere, we must compete with those importers at their own game. I know that the Minister and the IFA are considering the establishment of a marketing and agricultural group and farmers who market their produce under the umbrella of small co-operatives will achieve a certain security. They will not have to suffer two bad years for every good year but will have a market for their produce every year. This is something that farmers have been anxious to achieve for a long time.

The Opposition spokesman was in my constituency and he spoke about this subject — incidentally, I should not like him to think I was at the meeting. He said that if Fianna Fáil were in office they would make provision for such a marketing group. A certain gentleman produced a document in 1977 stating that a marketing group would be provided for the potato and vegetable industry but nothing was done about it. I am very glad that it was a Minister from my party who took the initiative to ensure that producers will have a market for their produce and I know that the Deputies opposite will give every help to ensure that the scheme gets off the ground. I talked about this matter recently at a meeting of potato growers in my area and they are very anxious that something should be done about the matter. I am sure it will be welcomed by people in Deputy Leonard's area and by growers throughout the country.

Unfortunately we are about ten or 12 years behind in carrying out this operation. I am glad to note that all of us recognise this is the only way forward to give people in agriculture a decent living. The same applies to the horticultural industry which is in a very bad state at the moment. The reason people in the industry have been suffering for the past ten or 12 years is that merchants in this city decided to import goods rather than to buy Irish goods. That happened to a large degree in the area of horticulture where produce was let rot. Producers were offered very little money. The work that the Minister, the IFA and the producers are doing must succeed and that ring must be broken.

I welcome the proposed land policy and the master leasing plan on which the Minister of State has been working in co-operation with the Land Commission. It is up to Members of this House to sell this policy in their constituencies. A very considerable acreage is let each year on the 11-months system. The new land policy is worthwhile because the land will be handed back after a certain period in top condition. On the other hand, when land is let on the 11-months system there is no way a farmer can make money out of it if he is to maintain the land in a reasonable state. The master leasing programme will make more land available for leasing and it is up to Members of this House to sell the programme in the constituencies. When the retirement scheme for farmers was introduced some of the press condemned it from the first day. They said it was not on for people to retire and hand over their holdings to younger farmers. I hope the media will give the new programme the proper coverage to let it get off the ground. We could get considerably more production from many thousands of acres worked by farmers interested in the scheme and this would be of great benefit to our balance of payments.

More than £17 million has been allocated to the programme to eradicate bovine TB. I welcome the extra £3 million provided for reactor prices but I must comment on the enormous amount of money that has been spent to cope with this problem. In the Enfield area of my constituency there has been a serious outbreak of bovine TB in the past few months and many farmers are in danger of losing their livelihood. There have been some rumours about where the disease originated and I have been in touch with the Department about it. I hope there will be some information on that matter in the near future. Having regard to the amount of money spent in this area we should have more positive results, and an outbreak of the disease should not occur. People who move cattle into new areas without having them tested are responsible for much damage.

I am Chairman of the ACOT committee in my constituency and I am sorry the outgoing Minister saw fit to cut the allocation to the committees by £140,000 for their meetings in 1983. As a result, the committees have met on five or six occasions without expenses. The ordinary members of ACOT are being excluded but they are the people who make proposals in the interest of the farmers and send them to the Department of Agriculture. It was a very bad day for agriculture when it was decided to get rid of the county committees of agriculture. I appeal to the Minister to reverse that decision in 1984 because these committees have a large contribution to make to agriculture.

I agree with what many speakers have said about the farm modernisation scheme. The new scheme should not be implemented until the other farmers who qualified for grants are paid. I do not think there will be many applications for grants to build sheds for animals between November and April. The money available for this purpose should be paid to people who submitted their applications after 9 February.

The future of the sheep industry depends on what the Department and ACOT decide to do to stop packs of dogs worrying sheep. Rather than depending on the local authority to provide dog wardens, money should be provided by ACOT to get this scheme off the ground. That is the only way to solve this problem. If these sheep were not killed by dogs they would be exported and this would help improve our economy.

I heard Members mention that they were not pleased with the answers they got from the Minister. To hear them, anybody would think Fianna Fáil had been in opposition for ten years. They have suddenly realised that they will be in opposition for a number of years yet. The present Minister and his Ministers of State have done more for agriculture in their six short months in office than Fianna Fáil did in a much longer period. The Minister got much better prices in Brussels than Fianna Fáil did in the last four or five years. The Ministers have grasped what needs to be done for the future of the industry and the economy. I do not believe our farmers are getting value for the money provided for agriculture in the Estimates, £250 million. I believe the staffing in the Department is too high — more than 1,000 could be made redundant. The farmers receive only 30 per cent of the money provided in the Estimates. This raises the question whether we should continue increasing numbers in the Department and lessening the services which should be provided. Every pound spent down the country will benefit the economy and the farmers. People say we cannot afford to give redundancy pay to X number of staff in any Department in a given year, but I believe we will only have to pay this money in one year. It would be better for everyone if staff were made redundant when there is not sufficient work to keep them fully employed.

The Minister should contact the financial institutions because with inflation at 9.7 per cent this month interest rates should be falling rapidly. This should apply especially to the farming community who have been very hard pressed by these institutions over a number of years. It is unfair to expect any industry to pay 18 per cent interest on top of the principal. These institutions are making millions of pounds profit each year and they are being very unfair to our most important industry, agriculture. These financial institutions were as much if not more to blame as the farmers because their advisers encouraged farmers to borrow large sums of money, never thinking there was going to be a rainy day. It is wrong that in June 1983 farmers should be expected to pay 17½ per cent interest when our inflation rate is only 9.7 per cent. Someone somewhere should be made answer for this and the Minister must ensure that these people are helped.

I thank the Minister for giving us this opportunity to debate this Estimate. It would be beneficial if everyone who wanted to contribute got the opportunity to do so.

I would like to add my words of appreciation to what Deputy Farrelly said about the facilities made available by the Minister and the Fianna Fáil chief spokesman to extend the debate.

I want to talk about the farm modernisation scheme. When we were debating the motion on the Border areas I used two words with regard to the Government's action in relation to farm modernisation, immoral and obscene. "Immoral and obscene" are strong words but they suit this action. ACOT advisers, thinking the scheme was going to continue and of the time having been given for the scheme, were advising people who had very little money to invest, farmers who wanted to have a small pig unit, to have a slatted house, or housing for cattle in the winter, to invest again. Although they have invested large sums of money already, technically they cannot get the grants. I am asking the Minister and his junior Ministers to consider very carefully the immorality of their actions and to pay these people who had already launched schemes for farm modernisation.

The word "deferred" was used. I am always very suspicious of officials who use words like "defer" because it often means death. I hope when this scheme is revised — I am believing the officialese this time — that the plight of those people who had committed themselves before 9 February is taken into consideration. My clinics are crowded with people who are very upset. Those people know nothing about speculation or investing money to get an immediate return. They are people who, in good faith, are following the best agricultural scientific advice they can get.

The western drainage scheme in my area is one of the central Government EEC-aided schemes which was welcomed by the farmers. From the statistics in his office the Minister will see that in my constituency of Cavan-Monaghan the western drainage grant has been availed of at a much higher percentage than anywhere else. That scheme is still in existence, but there is no point in saying so when there is no money to keep it in motion. The Minister, his junior Ministers and the Government have an obligation to see that it is fleshed out with finance.

I would like to say a brief word on the appeal by the IFA, the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers' Association and non-organised farmers in my area for an extension of the severely disadvantaged area scheme to the two countries of Cavan and Monaghan. The arguments for this are well known in the Department. We have a much shorter growing season than further south, the drumlin soil is difficult to drain and to bring into production. Nevertheless, we have the highest productivity rate in the country, with the exception of south-west Cork. South-west Cork has the advantage of a somewhat better climate, with a little more sunshine because they are so much further south. The inputs into our small farms in Cavan and Monaghan are great, consequently the profits are cut down.

The Killeshandra Co-operative Society, the Town of Monaghan Co-operative Society — I place this second because Deputy Leonard is sitting beside me — Baileboro' Co-Operative Society and Lough Egish, plus the very important Virginia Products are the bulwarks of our agricultural industry in the area. Their gross profits are looked at very often by officials assessing for severely disadvantaged areas and the special disadvantages of the area are not taken fully into account. The practising farmers and reasonable men in the area are very suspicious of the officials in the Department of Agriculture who are charged with responsibility for assessing for the severely disadvantaged areas scheme. I ask the Minister to ensure that equity prevails when this assessment takes place. I do not wish to attack any official — I am merely recounting that my conversations and meetings with the farmers, who are not suspicious types, show that they think they are not getting a fair crack of the whip in this respect.

The Minister for Agriculture is quoted in today's Irish Times as being very pleased with what is happening with regard to disease eradication. In answer to a parliamentary question which I put down recently about the incidence of brucellosis and TB in Cavan and Monaghan in the years 1978 to 1982, inclusive, very sad figures emerged in so far as TB is concerned. In 1978, Cavan had 618 incidences and in 1982 1,103 — almost double. Monaghan had 491 incidences in 1978 and 1,147 in 1982. The brucellosis situation is much better, having been practically wiped out in Monaghan. It is not too much worse in Cavan, but there is no reason for smugness and satisfaction about disease eradication. There is still a fight to be won.

In my short time allocation I make a suggestion that the Minister set up an innovation section in the Department of Agriculture, a section which will apply itself to the problems, for example, of diversification, to the establishment of certain crops and certain small industries. I am not talking about anything on a grand scale but the import substitution aspect should be taken into account and the possibility of upmarket sales for certain things. In my own constituency — and particularly in Monaghan — farm enterprise has been developed to a very great extent. In another place — I suppose that is the best name to put on Dublin Castle — yesterday we were studying the economy of the Six and the Twenty-six Counties and saw that farm enterprise was somewhat ahead in the Six Counties of that in the Twenty-six. Nevertheless, as far as my own constituency is concerned, we are probably well up with the Six Counties, because we do, after all belong to Ulster and have the same type of enterpreneurs and enterprise. The officials of the innovation section could look at the whole question of import substitution.

Deputy Farrelly mentioned potatoes. I put down a parliamentary question on the subject of imported potatoes and discovered that we had imported £26.4 million worth in 1982, either ware potatoes or processed in some way. I agree with the Deputy that marketing is very important. However, I am a little dismayed to see in a traditionally agricultural area, sacks of potatoes from the various countries from which we import. The list of such countries is on the record of the House. These imported potatoes are in net bags, letting the air in at them. We put potatoes in plastic bags which cannot possibly be healthy for them. We have an excellent quality potato in most parts of the country, anyway.

As a child in the Gaeltacht in Donegal. I remember eating potatoes which were second to none, mainly — it was said at the time — because they were being grown on seaweed fertilizer. The seaweed was collected and used as manure for their growth and they were rich in iodine. With our high concentration on the dairy industry in my area, I am afraid that people will not be interested in growing potatoes in their gardens. That section of the Department, with its eye to import institution, could encourage interest again in the vegetable garden. It is very important that they should.

At the by-election in Galway I was stationed in the Kilkerrin area and was absolutely amazed at the high quality both of the vegetable and flower gardens in that area. I thought it might have been as a result of a long tradition. In fact, that particular area was chosen at one stage for a special scheme of development which had had its impact. Anybody coming from the outside could see the benefits of it. If I have a moment to spare later on, I shall come to the subject of education. It is paramount in the whole agricultural field.

The broiler industry is particularly developed in Monaghan, where the broiler duck industry is the largest in the country and perhaps the only one. There is the turkey broiler industry in Smithboro — I can see by Deputy Leonard that he gets the very highest protein food — and mushrooms in Monaghan although many of the growers are stationed in Cavan. These are all farm enterprises which have brought wealth to the area. Bailey's Irish Cream is responsible for the processing of over 30 million gallons of cream in Virginia and we have Emmet's Cream in Bailieboro' which is also selling well on the US market. Bailey's is one of the phenomena of modern marketing and modern success. One cannot pick up Stern or Time magazines without seeing a large full-page advertisement for this and it is very pleasing for an Irishman to see it.

We grew flax in our own area at one time but the big flax market has gone, of that there is no question. However, surely it is worth studying the possibility of a small upmarket industry with a small acreage of flax which will command upmarket prices in the world market. In County Cavan when I was growing up we had water-mills all over the area. These came into action with the winter rains and ground the oatmeal for the area. All the health conscious people nowadays are making a virtue out of roughage. I can assure them that no matter where they are doing their research, whether in the Mayo Clinic, in Washington or elsewhere, there is no better roughage than the oatmeal then produced. It was not the soft, bland, stodgy stuff which one gets nowadays, if one can get it at all. It had to be kiln dried. The cornflakes and so on now have been taken over. I am talking not merely about the home market but about the possibility of an upmarket industry. One would have to charge for it because there would be extra expense involved. Not too long ago near Kells there was a danger that the river would be diverted in connection with mining operations and that the mill there would close down. All Members of the House received letters asking us to try to save the mill which used water as its source of power. The mill was saved and that enterprise is still going. We have a specialised one in County Cavan as well. I am talking about selling in shops which sell specialist foods.

There are people who will not eat an apple unless there is a maggot hole in it because they know that if the maggot hole is there no sprays were used on the apple tree. I have seven or eight apple trees and I could sell apples with maggot holes in them mainly because I have not time to spray the trees.

I put down a question recently about butter oil. We were doing extemely well exporting this. It was produced in Killeshandra. There were scientific people working in Killeshandra and there was a market for it. Unfortunately the bottom seems to have fallen out of the market. Mexico was one of the countries we exported to but they are in severe economic difficulties. It is a market I hope the Department will watch and perhaps we can expand it again.

As regards AI subsidies, we have discontinued the licensing of bulls. This was introduced to improve the quality of cattle which it did. People who broke the law were pursued effectively by the Department. Farmers with a 20 or 30 cowherd are worried that if the subsidies are withdrawn there will be an inevitable deterioration in the quality of cattle.

Education for the young farmers is of the utmost importance. We met European Parlimentarians in Monaghan town recently and were given education statistics. Only 87 per cent of the farmers had primary education and 65 per cent of farmers' sons had post-primary education. If there is money I would say to the Department, for God's sake get it. If £400 million of £500 million can be given back to Maggie Thatcher then to get a few million of our own funds from the EEC and spend it on agricultural education. When I was Minister for Education I had several meetings with Dr. Tom Walsh and with the chairman of the RTE Authority with a view to getting a programme going on agricultural education and a foundation and diploma course which would end up with the award of a diploma by the NCEA. I appeal to the Minister, who is an educationalist and a scientist, and to the junior Ministers, to concentrate on that. There was approximately a 75 per cent increase in production in three years by those who took the 100 hour course run by ACOT. It is simply astounding to think of the possibilities if we get agricultural education under way. Thanks to the EEC there are new centres in our area. Ten of them will be developed and I expect great results from that. Through Macra na Feirme perhaps more than through formal education those involved in agriculture have effected developments which their grand-fathers would not believe could be achieved. If this was done through a low standard of education imagine what could be achieved if we had a good standard.

When Minister, the Ceann Comhairle was very keen on the farm retirement scheme. It never really got off the ground. I regret to have to put on the record that in 1982 EEC expenditure on the scheme in County Cavan was £1,000. Was he not lucky? In County Monaghan it was £3,000 and in County Louth £300. It is tragic. There is a difficulty about transfer from father to son. I agree with Deputies Farrelly, Leonard and Noonan that the interest aid is very important. There are people in serious financial circumstances because they borrowed money and now cannot repay it. By virtue of huge interest rates, what began as a debt which they could cope with has built into a colossal amount which is hanging around their necks like an albatross.

Every Deputy who has an agricultural electorate will vouch for the fact that young people are trying to get places in the various colleges. Farming will be transformed if we have a properly structured educational system for farmers. Deputy Connaughton is a Minister of State. He deals with the Land Commission. He is a fine, big, genial man. He exudes bonhomie. I ask him to go home, sit down at the fire, throw his good long legs up on a chair and take up the Official Report in which there is a reply to a question I put down about estates in Counties Cavan and Monaghan. He will see there the year in which each estate was acquired and the acreage. I asked when each estate would be allotted. He will be amazed at the number of pages it takes up in the Official Report to record the number of farms the Land Commission have. They are major landlords. Let him observe that the acreage is given in hectares. Let him look down the column giving the year they were acquired in. I kept at a former Minister about a particular estate to such an extent that when he met me along the corridor he said “Oh yes, Webb estate”. It has been in the possession of the Land Commission for six years and I was told several times it would be allotted to farmers before the end of 1980 or 1981.

I will shortly have to ground the Deputy.

How long have I?

The Deputy has gone over the runway.

I thought the Chair was giving me five minutes.

The Deputy has taken seven.

The land is available and there are people who are anxious to get land but unfortunately some people have had to refuse it because of the high rate that the Land Commission intended charging for it. I had an example of this only a couple of weeks ago in a situation in which a very ambitious young man with a wife and three children could not take land because of not being able to face the annual charges being demanded.

Agriculture has been through a difficult time in the past three or four years. In addition to high interest rates there have been the problems of inflation and increased costs generally. This situation rendered it almost impossible for people to make a living from the family farm. It is gratifying to find that at least our inflation rate has dropped. This should have some worthwhile effect in such productive areas as agriculture. High inflation has been the single biggest obstacle to increased returns from farms in the past number of years.

It has been said many times that farm planning is essential but something that was forgotten when we decided to engage in long-term planning in agriculture has been that this industry, like many others, is affected by the supply-and-demand position. Wise people decided in the seventies that we should have long-term farm planning but that involved also long-term borrowing. This borrowing was undertaken in the circumstances that prevailed at the time. But those circumstances have changed and the level of borrowing had to be increased in order to continue production in line with the targets set initially. At the same time interest rates were increased. The result of all this has been disastrous. To some extent the blame in this respect must lie with the farm modernisation scheme whereby the agricultural sector were allowed engage in excessively high borrowing. It is easy to blame farmers, to say that they over-borrowed, but farmers were responding only to the advice they received from ACOT who in turn were receiving the advice from further up along the line. I hope that we have learned a lesson from those mistakes.

It sounded fine for a farmer with 100 or 150 acres to engage in borrowing to the extent of £20,000 or £30,000. If he wished to avail of the farm modernisation grants he had to carry out the improvements necessary to his holding and this necessitated borrowing. If that situation had not prevailed for that long-term period, agriculture would not be in the position it is in today in the context of excessive borrowing. The old system whereby grants were paid for work undertaken in a shorter term for specific improvements was a better system. If it had been in operation during the seventies we would not be in such serious difficulty now. At least, that is my opinion as one who has spent a long time in the agricultural business.

There have been references to the reintroduction of the farm modernisation scheme. I would agree that before the scheme is re-introduced we should make every effort to honour the commitments, verbal though they may have been, given to farmers who had initiated proceedings towards improvements before 9 February last and who are now aggrieved because it appears they do not qualify under the scheme. Those people should be given priority and their grants paid.

People who are not involved in agriculture often drive around the country and talk glibly about land being underutilised or not being drained. It may seem to such people that the owners of the lands are lazy but this is not the case. If one travels through the Six Counties one sees work such as land reclamation and other major projects that were undertaken on the land and paid for from central government. This has been to the betterment of agriculture generally and to the agricultural population. The scheme I am talking of is on the lines of one of the old schemes that operated in the Twenty-Six Counties. It was known as the Schedule B Scheme whereby assistance was given to the owners of land to carry out improvements on the basis of repaying the moneys over a number of years on an annuity basis. This scheme was responsible for the transforming of large tracts of land. It is only with a scheme of that nature that we can again hope to have such large-scale improvements carried out and to bring about the increased production that we talk of so much.

Having travelled through much of this country on one occasion during a Seanad election campaign I have had ample opportunity to see many areas that could benefit very well from large-scale reclamation and land drainage works.

As other speakers have said, there is a need to extend the disadvantaged areas scheme to other parts of the country that are at least as disadvantaged as are those in the scheme. For instance, there are areas within County Kildare such as Allenwood which comprises a large area of bog, Kilteel and other parts which I should like to see being designated as disadvantaged areas. I hope the Minister will take account of this in relation to submissions being made to the EEC.

Another area which needs much more attention is the area of the marketing of agricultural produce. Some improvements have been made in this context but I was delighted to hear the Minister of State mention a week ago in response to a question here that it is his intention to set up a structure for the marketing of potatoes and vegetables. In these difficult times for Irish agriculture, such a structure is essential. It is totally illogical that we should have such competition from other countries in respect of produce that can be grown at home. I am thinking particularly of potatoes. It has been suggested that the Irish producer cannot produce potatoes of a similar quality to those being imported. The Irish producer is very capable of producing potatoes of a very high standard. In my county there are groups of producers who are endeavouring to introduce a branding and marketing system that will improve the value of the product which will be available to the housewife at the end of the day. It is in relation to marketing and presentation that agricultural produce has been failing most. We will sell our produce at home and abroad if we grade it and present it attractively.

There have been attempts in recent years by some conglomerates to introduce imports of potatoes and other vegetables, in direct competition with our own produce, on the basis that the housewife needs a choice. Our producers need a choice also. I would never condone the marketing of low grade or poor quality goods of any description but we should be patriotic enough to remember that our own people come first, whether they be agricultural or industrial producers. We should encourage in stores and supermarkets a system which would give preferential treatment to home produce. Stores could be given a certain amount of credit or standing for reserving shelf space for such produce. Various agri-companies have operated successfully abroad and they can also do so at home. Goods of Irish origin should be clearly displayed so that the consumer does not have difficulty in seeking them out. This would be beneficial both to the consumer and the producer.

In relation to the meat processing industry I will have to be somewhat parochial because Kildare has been adversely affected by the crisis in that industry in recent years. Various factories have closed and some have opened again. In the past few months the plant at Leixlip which once employed 900 people has closed, as has another plant at Sallins. There are hopes that both these plants will re-open shortly. Other meat processing plants have also experienced difficulties. I appeal to the Minister to take whatever action is necessary to bring about the removal of the UK variable premium which militates very seriously against Irish beef. This removal would have the effect of giving more confidence to the trade. I know that the Minister's officials have had discussions in recent days with their UK counterparts and I ask the Minister to use whatever means he can to bring about the removal of the anomaly. It would be of tremendous benefit to the employment content in the industry and to the producers.

I also wish to mention the subject of tax on agricultural land. All enterprises should be liable to taxation but the income tax system as it applies to agriculture generally is totally unsuitable. It seems ridiculous that a small farmer who has up to 100 acres should have to employ the assistance of a tax consultant or accountant in order to determine his liability to income tax in a given year. Would it not be more efficient to have a tax per enterprise which would be set every year or two whereby the farmer would know at the beginning of the year what his liabilities were? At the same time there would be greater efficiency in getting the money direct to the State. It would be far better for a farmer to pay, say, £300 in direct taxation to the local authority, for instance, rather than pay £300 to an accountant so that the inspector of taxes can be told that the farmer is not liable for income tax. The type of enterprise I have in mind is so small that it cannot afford the luxury of high administration costs.

I know that this year the Ministers have not had sufficient time to work out an alternative system but I would ask them next year to consider this possibility. Taxpayers generally would get a greater return for their money due to a more efficient system and the agricultural enterprises concerned would also benefit. Producers would be encouraged to increase production rather than discouraged as under the present system.

I welcome the proposals in relation to land leasing and hope that they will be far more successful than earlier schemes. Young people who wish to become involved in agriculture should be given that opportunity and if we are to improve output and increase production it will be by those means. Everybody in this House should co-operate to bring about a satisfactory scheme that will enable young people to acquire land over a reasonable period and make their contribution to the economy. I appeal for the co-operation of the Opposition because they have a responsible job, particularly in relation to productive areas. They should not be too disappointed if our Minister after five months in office has not been able to produce what they were unable to produce in five years. We have a long way to go and with a bit of luck we will be able to do all the things they wanted to do.

I thank the Minister for extending the time for this debate. I congratulate Deputy Hegarty on his appointment as Minister of State, coming as he does from the finest agricultural constitutency in the country. He referred to the pilot scheme in the Mallow area for tuberculosis eradication. I had a deep involvement in that scheme when I was local chairman of the IFA executive. We saw a need for the coming together of the farmers and the Department and also for the involvement of the ICMSA.

I was glad to hear the Minister of State, Deputy Hegarty, paying a tribute to the farming organisations for their co-operation. However, the Government's attitude is that other sectors must be responsible for the overall development of agriculture. They are handing over all responsibility to the co-ops. This is unfair because agriculture must get support from the Government. The importance of agriculture in the Irish economy has been well documented. Its impact on our balance of payments has been alluded to frequently. It has been accepted that if agriculture here reaches its full potential it is capable of making a far greater contribution to the national economy. I do not think the Government believe that, because first of all they tamper with the farm modernisation scheme in the budget for the sake of a saving of a mere £10.2 million, a mere pittance when you look at the total budget. Unfortunately, it has been taken from the more sensitive area of farm development, including farm buildings and other fixed assets.

When we travelled to the Donegal by-election many of us could see the standard of the farms in the north-west of Ireland because of the input from the previous administration. The development of the land and farm buildings was gratifying. Approximately 70 per cent of the cattle in Ireland are not housed and only 50 per cent of our land has water facilities. There is a great need for the continuation of that scheme, perhaps with some modification, but not the type of scheme the Government are thinking of reintroducing.

They have imposed a £20 fee per visit of farm development officers. There should be reconsideration of that, particularly in regard to land reclamation because the land needs to be improved. We have a lot of bad land that could do with reclamation but this fee per visit will impede many farmers who wish to improve their land. Farmers have not the expertise when it comes to land measurement, and that has always been part of the service in a grant-aided job: a farmer could have a number of visits from an officer of the Department.

Farm ownership at the moment carries great responsibilities because the land is the country's greatest resource but it needs development in order to increase productivity.

The country's economic development relies on foreign borrowing and this can best be solved by a significant growth in agricultural exports. This would generate wealth and employment at home. Proper marketing has been stultifying agricultural production. We have been concentrating on the marketing of bulk produce. Bord Bainne have been successful in helping to market abroad, but only in bulk. Brands for individual commodities are of vital importance. We must develop this brand image. Marketing by the expertise of CTT has been significant because they have made great inroads into the markets of Europe, Japan and the US. We have seen the success of Bailey's Cream and Tullamore Dew in Europe and many others I do not wish to name. CTT must be involved with the IDA and any groups being set up must have the assistance of these two bodies. I do not want to appear to be critical of an Bord Bainne, the Pigs and Bacon Commission or CBF, but their expertise is confined to the sale of bulk commodities and that is where we have fallen down. We could have numerous Irish brands because we have a large co-operative society who should be developing this area. It is sad to go into our large supermarkets on a Saturday and see shelves of imported branded goods. We must correct that.

In the short term there must be an input from the Government in regard to this. However, we are not getting that support and therefore we are only half developed in regard to marketing. We have 12 million acres of arable land and the Government should make a case at EEC level for aid to develop our food industry.

It is vital there should be some change in the EEC dairy policy. One of our problems has been that we had an intervention system but it has geared our dairying industry for the production of two commodities, butter and skim milk. They are the only two guaranteed products and all the other dairy products must face the market competition. We had an expanding cheese industry before EEC membership but in recent years that has been dwindling. Our total tonnage of cheese in 1982 showed a tragic decrease. We have been manufacturing only cheddar cheese, another bulk commodity, but we have lost our sophisticated varieties and now when we enter the large supermarkets we see exhibitions of imported cheeses of the sophisticated types. There must be a ready market abroad and at home for such varieties. I suggest that everybody involved must consider that matter very carefully.

We are suffering a tragic problem in regard to fresh food imports. All we have to do is to look at the success of the French vegetable and fruit industry, particularly in Brittany which has much the same climatic conditions as we have. They have developed their vegetable and fruit industries beyond recognition since their EEC involvement through their producer groups. Here we have no producer groups. We need numerous producer groups for all areas of agriculture, but particularly the fruit and vegetable sectors. Such groups will need the encouragement of the Minister for Agriculture and the Government, no matter which Government, because that is the way forward in that area.

For proper growth and progress in the future, farming must attract young people of ability, equipped with the knowledge and skills necessary to enable them to carry out successfully the many husbandry and management tasks demanded of them in the operation and management of modern farm enterprises. At present the total population living on the land of Ireland is less than 700,000 and it is still declining at a time when we have up to 300,000 people unemployed. There must be a message there somewhere for us. This compares very unfavourably with the 850,000 people living on the land in Holland, a country the size of Munster. Greater attention must be paid in future to raising the image of farm work as a life carreer programme for young people going into farming.

The efforts of ACOT with the help of funds from the Youth Employment Agency in establishing a new certificate in farm training programmes are worthy of our full support. Barriers to the full development of that programme such as the prevention of the recruitment facilities for training should be removed. We can no longer afford to neglect training for farming if we expect the industry to compete successfully. I am referring to the embargo in the public service. In this very sensitive area we should have an adequate number of advisers.

On the establishment of ACOT by Dáil Éireann as a national organisation for the provision of agricultural training and advice, provision was made for proper services as previously provided by the Department of Agriculture and advisory services as provided by the committees of agriculture. Independent professional advice is a necessary ingredient of modern farming if farmers are to have the confidence and ability to keep up to date with the charges in technology. While co-operatives have an important role in the provision of services to farmers, it is questionable if their involvement in the provision of help to farmers, as seems to be occurring in some cases, is in the best interest of farming and industry.

If we are to have a successful advisory service it must be independent and be seen to be trusted by the farming commarket munity. Fragmentation or duplication of our advisory services has taken place and is still taking place in some of the cooperative services. We must have a co-ordinated service. Close working relationships between ACOT and the cooperative services is likely to have better results eventually in both the farming industry and the co-operatives. There are many examples of close working relationships with co-operatives and advisers.

In pre-EEC days Mitchelstown pioneered a close working relationship with advisory services in the Cork, Limerick and Waterford areas. I am very proud that it was an outstanding success but it could not be continued without the input of a small amount of funds from the society to the county committees of agriculture. The success of ACOT in a short time in the south-west region, which is the most progressive region for agriculture, has been outstanding. In that area farming turnover is approximately £120 million, and 40 per cent of the dairy cattle are in that region.

I am very satisfied with the new proposal from ACOT for County Cork, that is, that it should be divided in two for advisory purposes. This is a progressive step and it will lead to a greater co-ordination of the services which are so vital for farming in that county. At present farmers are going through a very difficult time. We have to borrow to develop. Very high interest rates have to be paid and this is very difficult for farmers.

The need for advice and guidance has never been greater. It is totally wrong that services to farmers should be reduced, or not even be available in some cases at the scale which previously applied, because of the effects of the embargo on recruitment. The total budget for ACOT is £20 million. A further £1 million would solve the problems of the staff scheme. I ask the Minister to make that £1 million available to give us a better service. Taking the figures 12 million acres and £20 million, this gives us about £1.75 per acre invested by the State in the advisory services. I understand that the aims and objectives of ACOT for the provision and development of farm enterprises are being thwarted by the failure of successive Governments to approve the staff scheme for ACOT professional and technical staff necessary under the statute. I appeal to the Minister to correct that situation.

I do not want to score political points, but one of the best schemes ever introduced was introduced by Deputy MacSharry. That was the introduction of the AI subsidy. That will improve our breeding herd in the coming years and we will see a substantial increase in milk yields. The scheme has been successful in making dairy breeds available at a subsidised rate to enable farmers to improve their dairy herds. While our dairy herd has not expanded very much, the increase in the milk yield has already shown itself.

The whole area of farming taxation must be looked at. Farmers should not be assessed on the same basis as other sections of the community. Farming is a family job. You cannot say "stop" when the cow is calving or the sow is having bonhams. There must be some compensation for the input of farmers' wives, sons and daughters. There must be some incentive to keep people on the land.

I come from the constituency of Meath which is known to many people as the royal county. Some people believe Meath is a county of massive farmers and rich ranchers. That is not the case. There are well over 1,500 small farmers in the county. In the area where I live all of the farmers have only 14 Irish acres of land which is around 21 statute acres. I am disappointed about a few things that happened lately in my constituency.

I compliment the Minister and I wish him well. To date on the occasions I met him I found him to be a very able man. Why are the Land Commission not forced to divide the land they have in their possession? Some of that land has been in their possession for nine or ten years. Small farmers in the area could do with that land. It is time the Government instructed the Land Commission that all land in their possession should be allocated immediately.

I put down a parliamentary question to the Minister for Agriculture about a few reasonably large farms which were for sale in Meath. One was a farm of 200 acres and the other was a farm of about 300 acres. I was disappointed when I was told it is not the policy of the Land Commission to acquire land in my constituency. We must look at facts. I am speaking for small farmers in my constituency, not ranchers. There is a big difference.

People are inclined to put farmers in the one category. In my opinion a viable farm in Meath would be a farm of 70 acres. People with 21 acres to 40 acres who want to borrow money from the banks or the ACC to buy land have to pay interest at about 18 per cent. In a very short time they have to sell what they already own to pay their debts. The future ranchers will be the banks. Not long ago land was auctioned in my constituency and banks were competing against each other to buy it. One man would go into a certain bank and tell them that there were 100 acres of land for sale and they would agree to give him £X to buy it. Another man would go into a different bank who would also agree to give money. Both banks were competing against one another and land which made £4,000 per acre three or four years ago is now going for less than £1,000 per acre in my constituency. Some farmers are up to their necks in debt trying to pay for land.

An old farmer and I were looking at manifestoes from different parties since the foundation of the State. All parties paid lip service to the small farmer and were always promising him massive injections of cash. He asked me what I thought of the manifestoes and I said that most of them had not been followed through. He said it reminded him of the advertisement on television of the does you give animals to cure worms. Picture a veterinary surgeon giving a big injection and you know what happens after that — bull, and I will not use the second word. That basically sums up the commitment to small farmers.

Only three categories of people should be allowed to buy land, farmers with small acreages, farmers' sons and farm labourers. Small farmers cannot compete with big supermarket owners. The Minister should look into this situation. I welcome the Minister's decision to set up the national horticulture co-operatives. Before this Government came to office I wrote to the Leader of our party asking that a Minister should be appointed with special responsibility for horticulture. There is a brilliant horticulture instructor in Kells and he is now being let go by ACOT. I made representations to the Minister about it and he is looking into the matter. I plead with him to change that decision.

The PAYE sector should understand that unless agriculture and the building trade pick up we will be in real trouble. People do not believe me when I tell them that the farmer is a different animal from any other section of the community. When farmers make money they spend it on silage pits and hay sheds. Unfortunately, building has been reduced because of the slump.

Small farmers are very worried at present about taxation. Everybody should pay his fair share of tax but a farmer with 21 acres should not be liable for tax. It is not the fault of this or the previous Government that those people are not in the tax net. They should blame the people who represented them, who brought the Government to the Supreme Court and proved that rates were unconstitutional. I want the Minister to ensure that where small farmers submit accounts there should be a simplified tax system for them. However, I cannot see civil servants adhering to anything simple; they complicate things so much they are complicated themselves. I cannot see a small farmer who is not liable for tax submitting a form to the tax inspector and being told he is not liable for tax. Small businesses and small farmers have received assessments for unrealistic turnovers which could not be made. Possibly the PAYE sector do not realise that business people are receiving unrealistic tax bills. The Government gave a commitment that small farmers would have a simplified tax system and I hope that will materialise. It is now time for the Minister to speak and I wish him well in his new post.

I should like to thank the Government side for allowing us extra time to speak on this debate. I speak on behalf of all the people, not just the farming community. Such discussions that take place inside and outside this House are continually putting people into different categories. We should all be working together in these hard times and should understand and appreciate the fact that we all need one another, if we want to improve our standard of living.

Agriculture is the base of future national progress. I should like to express my gratitude to the Minister for the continuation of the calf and calved heifer schemes and the suckler cow scheme because that is how we will increase our national herd. I appeal to the farmers to produce more livestock in the interests of the nation because our cattle herd is the base of all agricultural exports. There is a dairy section and a beef section, also foods and dairy products all based from the cow and it is important that we thank our farmers for their contribution to the nation. We hope they will continue to improve themselves and produce quality goods at reasonable prices so that people will buy them. However, farmers will not produce more if there is not a marketing board and a system set up to guarantee reasonable prices to give them a reasonable profit. The Government are fooling the farmers unless they tackle immediately the marketing side of agricultural products. There is no use giving large EEC grants to the farmer to produce more if, at the same time, they have no markets for their extra products.

The CBF are more an advisory than a marketing body. They merely assist people to sell their products abroad. There is a need for a more positive marketing board.

Another stumbling block to extra production in agriculture is the high interest rates being charged to farmers and there is no doubt whatever about that. Speaker after speaker in this House has brought this matter forward. It is obvious to the Government that this problem must be tackled immediately. Farmers today are trying to pay off mortgages from incomes which do not allow them to do so. Agricultural production cannot carry the 20 per cent interest charge, nor can it justify it. I know a number of very good farmers who find themselves facing this problem and the only reason they are not able to show a profit is because the mortgage rate which they must pay is too high. Our banking and financial institutions are not showing little human concern in this regard. I am aware of a number of cases where farmers were asked by a bank to close off their accounts at the reduced figure with a substantial loss on the account, yet those farmers were in a position, and showed the bank manager that they were able to pay a rate of 10 per cent and be viable. The deduction they would have asked the bank to accept, that is 10 per cent, was no greater than the write-off figure that the bank was offering to them to get their accounts out of the bank. That is serious and I hope that the Minister will investigate it as quickly as possible.

Still in the area of bad debts, a small percentage of farmers now find themselves with huge debts which it seems they will not be able to pay off. Again I know a number of farmers who were willing to put such debts over a 40 or 50 year period, passing the debts on to the next generation of daughters or sons who would take over the farms. This again does not appear to be acceptable. Farmers have offered to give their land to the bank to use and to take the income from it over a period of ten or 20 years in order to pay off the debt, so that the land would come back to the ownership of the family. Again, this was not acceptable either. Many people who are in jobs are paying off mortgages on houses. They also know the problems involved in repayments from less income. Something will have to be done to assist those hard-pressed farmers to pay their debts.

Much of our land is not being used properly. Retirement schemes must be brought up to date. I believe that such farmers would put their land on long lease letting if the terms were attractive to them. However, at the moment the 11-months system is there and working well in most cases. People who have it on that system look after it reasonably well and in many cases where a death or illness occurs in the family the 11-months system is the only means open to them as a short-term remedy. I would not for one moment encourage the Minister or the Minister of State to abolish that system entirely because it has many good points.

I am also concerned about imports of agricultural goods. Why do people at home buy imported goods? It is difficult to censure the housewife who will spend her money on imported food at a cheaper price, thereby giving herself a better standard of living. The problem is that the Minister must educate people to realise that buying imported food at a lower price is not necessarily the best thing to do, even though it may seem better value for the household budget. As a result of buying imported foods, jobs are lost and, therefore, the flow of money that those people would earn is lost to the economy. Our money is leaving the country. The Minister's Department must press this point home very hard and clearly to the public at large. What may appear to be good value in the short term is certainly not good value in the long term. We must all work together and help one another and the only way we can do this is by purchasing our home products.

The next matter is taxation of farmers. Farmers should not be afraid to indicate what their incomes and expenses are. I know that it costs them money if they must employ accountants to do this, but I believe very few, if any, small farmers are liable for tax. Some sort of simplified document which would involve, say, ten basic questions should apply to farmers with 60 acres or less. The questions could concern, say, the number of cows, the acreage of tillage and so on. This would cut out unnecessary accountants' fees and would also decide whether the farmer should produce full accounts for taxation.

I welcome the money that has been allotted to agriculture and I hope the farmers will take it up and use it well and that by next year we will be able to provide more money to help and encourage the farmers to produce more in order to give themselves and the rest of the community a better living.

At a time when we face such major economic and social problems we should look back to basics. We face the situation of over 200,000 unemployed and another year's school leavers finishing examinations at this time of year with no prospects of jobs for them. As a parliament and a nation we must re-examine our policies for job creation and in doing so we should concentrate on what is, after all, our major industry, that is agriculture, and the potential of agriculture for the creation of jobs not just in the production of food, but, very important, in the processing and marketing of the food that is produced. We should take advantage of the added value that is available from our food production and the potential for jobs in the area of agricultural machinery. There is the ludicrous situation that as an agricultural nation we import most of our machinery. Instead of spending huge sums of money on imported machinery we should be producing sufficient machinery for our own needs, and exporting some.

The Department of Agriculture, rather than improving grant schemes annually or tinkering around with existing schemes, should re-examine their basic role, where they are heading. They should be working in conjunction with the Departments of Industry and Energy and Trade, Commerce and Tourism. We should look at agriculture in conjunction with our job-creation policies. We have been trying to prop up old industries with outdated technology. I accept that some of our policies have been relatively successful, such as the electronics and health care areas, but in those cases we have had to look to the outside. At this stage in our development we should try to make use of our natural resources. Our basic advantage is our ability to grow food products. There is a great demand for clean products and a consciousness in Europe about the purity and cleanliness of products offered for sale. We are in a position to offer such products for sale but we do not take advantage of that.

The IDA, the Department of Agriculture and CTT should co-ordinate their policies and look to the potential of agriculture. At Question Time recently we learned about the difficulty in regard to our leather industry and the same is true of many other areas. We import more than £750 million worth of food products. That is a ludicrous situation. We should be exporting our produce. If our farmers can grow products they should be supported and helped in the marketing of that produce through the IDA and the Departments of Industry and Energy and Trade, Commerce and Tourism. We must have a co-ordinated marketing approach.

I would like to be in a position to dwell at greater length on that subject but I am restricted. In the time remaining to me I should like to concentrate on two matters that are of great importance in my constituency. I am referring to the problems facing the tomato, vegetable and potato growers. A word that has been abused and lost its meaning in recent times is "crisis" but when I use that word when referring to the horticulture industry — those involved in the growing of vegetables, tomatoes and potatoes — I am serious. There is a crisis of gigantic proportions facing that industry, particularly in north County Dublin. Tomato growers face unfair competition from produce grown in Holland where producers are assisted by many grants and subsidised natural gas. The Minister should examine the possibility of establishing the horticultural development board to protect what is left of our glasshouse industry, and, if possible, develop it. That industry has potential.

The Minister may not be aware that there are hundreds of growers in north County Dublin who are on the verge of bankruptcy. In fact, some of them have already gone bankrupt. Those people need the assistance of the Department. They need a horticultural development board and assistance in marketing. The situation is so serious that the Minister should assign one of his two Minister of State to concentrate exclusively on the development of that industry. Yesterday we learned of the collapse of North Dublin Growers and I appeal to the Minister to ensure that their fine building which was prepared for horticultural purposes is retained for such use. There has been talk of using it for other purposes and, desirable though they may be, it is important that the building is retained for horticultural use.

Our potato growers face unfair competition also from growers in Northern Ireland, Italy, Cyprus and other countries. Those producers need the Minister's help through a potato marketing board. They have been losing a fortune for many years. I accept that they have had good years but they lost considerable sums of money in recent years. Surely it is nonsense that in a country where potatoes are the basic diet of our people they have to be imported. The Minister should investigate the purchasing of potatoes by the State and health boards and ensure that dyed potatoes from Northern Ireland are not supplied to our hospitals. That occurred on a number of occasions and the potatoes had to be withdrawn. We are only asking for fair competition for our growers of tomatoes, vegetables and potatoes. They are producing quality goods but they need the assistance of the Department.

At Question Time this week I expressed the view that the Department of Agriculture was production orientated. I appeal to the Minister to expand the role of his Department and look to processing and marketing.

The Minister, his Ministers of State, and the Government have failed abysmally to acknowledge the importance of agriculture as our primary industry. Agriculture creates most money, employs most people and makes the biggest single contribution to our economy. In 1982 it was worth £2,155 million to the State. The Government have talked about Dáil reform, monetary reform and land reform but after ten years of EEC membership the best reform the Government could initiate would be to establish an all-party committee to review, assess and reappraise the progress we have made in those ten years in Europe.

The constant threat to the Common Agricultural Policy by many institutions and pressure groups is an indication why Ireland should have a clear distinct voice and policy to preserve that policy not only for the benefit of Ireland but also for Europe. We must ensure that we can supply the maximum amount of agricultural produce for the world market. We must fight for a bigger share of that market because since we entered Europe we have tended to neglect it. It is worrying that member states like Britain can cry about their contribution to the EEC fund annually, attend the summit of the European Council and return home with funds in the region of £450 million. This is very worrying and shows the basic weakness of the EEC institutions. It gives further credibility to those opposed to the Common Agricultural Policy. This week all Members of the House were circulated with a document from an EEC statistical publishing group registered in Switzerland offering special information for attack on the Common Agricultural Policy. We must resist this with all the powers at our disposal to ensure that as an agricultural country we will not be doomed in future years.

This year, in the midst of an economic depression and a world recession, the Government decided to bring all farmers into the tax net. There is great confusion in Government circles about this. The Minister for Agriculture told the House this week that there were 120,000 farmers in the country. A few weeks ago, during the debate on the Finance Bill, the Minister for Finance told the House that he would be bringing all farmers, 90,000 of them, into the tax net and he expected to get a yield of £2,500,000 from them. Recently he has not been too sure if he will submit the farm profile to 20,000 farmers. There is great confusion as to whether 20,000, 120,000, 90,000 or 70,000 farmers will be brought into the tax net. This shows a lack of commitment to agriculture.

The taxing of farmers is not new to Coalition Governments. I believe that any farmer with a reasonable profit from his land and his farm has a duty to make a contribution and to pay his fair share of tax to the Exchequer. The attitude of the Government is to remove the small farmers of the west from the supplementary welfare assistance which helped to sustain those farmers on the land over the years. This latest penalty in the present farm tax policy has never been admitted by the Government. Their attitude and the attitude of the Department of the Agriculture to the west is deplorable. We see all farmers along the western seaboard, from Donegal right through Connaught and down to Kerry, 30,000 to 40,000 small farmers who live in small, fragmented farms, being brought into the tax net. The quality of the land, the soil conditions and the climatic conditions which prevail there ensure that it is not possible for them to make a viable living and sustain their families on the land. It is necessary for them to get supplementary welfare or to have an off-farm job. The Government in the budget this year have brought down the off-farm income limit to £3,500 so that farmers earning any more than this will not benefit from the various grants that are available from the Department of Agriculture. If those small farmers in the west had not this off-farm income the productivity in the west which is very notable and the investment those small farmers have made in their own farms, bringing up the productivity level and making a contribution to the Exchequer would not have been possible and so many people would not be able to live in the west of Ireland.

Two weeks ago the board of Cómhlucht Siúicre Éireann Teoranta made a de facto decision to close the Tuam sugar factory at the end of the present beet campaign. While we will be saying more about this next week the attitude of the Government and the Department of Agriculture seems to be to hell with the west. A few months ago the Department of Agriculture closed down the turkey unit in Athenry, more withdrawal of activity by the Department of Agriculture and public funds from the west of Ireland. The equipment and the buildings in the unit at Athenry are probably the best in the country. The Minister's party and the Government seem to talk a lot about leasing. I appeal to them to ensure that these buildings will not be victims of the demolisher. I ask the Minister to ensure that a private enterprise who want to lease those buildings and have applied for the lease, will be given the opportunity to operate those buildings as a production unit and that any production needed will be finished in their factory a few miles from this unit. If this happens, this company, through the assistance of the Department of Agriculture, by having those buildings leased to them will be able to ensure that we make a major contribution in the west to the poultry industry and ultimately to the economy.

The suspension of the farm modernisation scheme is of great consequence to the small farmers in the west. Through recoupment and grants available from Europe we will lose something in the region of £6 million through the suspension of this scheme this year. This is ironic because this is the total agricultural cutback in the Estimate we are now discussing. I believe the suspension of the farm modernisation scheme is a retrograde step and will be detrimental to agriculture throughout the country, but particularly in the west. I believe also it is discriminatory and unconstitutional that people who made bona fide applications to the Department for a scheme that was available at the time they made them, went about them in good faith and are now denied the opportunity of going ahead with those schemes and availing of the grants that were available. They are being discriminated against. The Government should have decided to have a re-appraisal of the scheme and that from 1 January next there would be a new scheme and any applications made in the interim period would be dealt with under the old scheme. This will have a drastic effect on agricultural productivity levels. We will see that next year or the year after.

In the Estimate we have also seen the phasing out of the farm home management, the poultry advisory and the amenity horticultural services schemes in the Department. While I objected to that at the time it was proposed before the last election again today I want to make a special appeal to the Minister to have a second look at this situation. We must realise that the running of agriculture is a complex business and that it needs the full commitment of the farmer, his wife and his family. The services rendered by the Department of Agriculture staff through the farm home advisory, the poultry advisory and the amenity horticultural schemes was vital to ensure that the interest, relationship and commitment of the farmer, his wife and family to the success and the viability of farm was absolute. It will take only £250,000 to restore those services and to ensure that they will be permanent and ongoing. I appeal to the Minister to make a special effort to ensure that only the minimum cutbacks will be made in this area.

We have heard a lot about land leasing. I regret that my colleague the Minister of State, Deputy Connaughton, is not present. As I pointed out to him yesterday, under the legislation and the Constitution it is possible to lease land for many years. All this talk about land leasing sounds hollow when we consider that there is a total of 128 farms and 12 commonages totalling 2,500 hectares in County Galway being divided by the Land Commission at the moment. Some of these farms have been in the hands of the Land Commission since 1955. I believe whatever land leasing policy is brought into force it must take account of the capital investment that can be made by a young farmer and it must also create the environment, the opportunity and the potential of that young farmer to acquire land as soon as possible.

The west is a particular place and is very dear to my heart. We have our particular problems. I would appeal to the Minister to ensure that henceforth the west will be treated as a separate region in any negotiations regarding aid for this country which take place in Brussels. Unless we divide the country into two distinct regions, the west and the remainder, we will be unable to reap maximum advantage from our membership of the EEC.

It is important that the Minister and the Government take cognisance of the fact that agriculture is our primary industry and there should be no cutbacks effected in that industry in the future.

I should like to express my appreciation to the various Deputies who contributed to this debate. It has been a highly constructive one. People have been willing to express their views in an organised, orderly manner which contrasts somewhat with the type of Question Time we have had in the past three weeks in regard to questions on agriculture and which have not done justice to the agricultural industry. Most of the time there has been disorganisation, considerable disorder and even antagonism. We could achieve a considerable amount for agriculture if people allowed Question Time to proceed in a normal way. I would hope that Question Time for the remainder of the session will take place in that type of atmosphere. However, I might repeat that this debate has been particularly constructive and has served a useful purpose.

There have been an immense number of topics raised and I shall do my best to cover as many of the questions and issues discussed. First of all, let me say we hope that, as a result of the high increases we achieved in current price negotiations in Brussels, the development of our agriculture will continue at an ever-increasing rate. I am happy that a recovery is taking place in agriculture and that those price negotiations will be of considerable benefit to that recovery. In particular, when one considers that the increase in beef prices is in excess of 14 per cent, one can see there is considerable incentive for increasing production and the national herd numbers. Of course that is the base of the whole of our agricultural industry—increased cattle numbers. They constitute the very foundation of the industry. There has been tremendous buoyancy in the cattle industry as a result of that significant price increase.

Another underlying consideration of considerable importance has been the Government's efforts to get down the rate of inflation, in respect of which we have had quite an amount of success. As will have been seen from today's national newspapers, the level of inflation is now running at 9.2 per cent and the trend is downwards. That is bound to be of help. Indeed it is one of the things that has plagued farming in this country over the past four or five years. There has been a tremendously high rate of inflation obtaining with resultant high costs of inputs. A dramatic illustration of that high level of inflation was the fact that agricultural output actually declined in the years 1979, 1980 and 1981. Happily that trend was reversed dramatically in 1982 and all the indications are that that increase in production is continuing in 1983. However, we have been particularly unfortunate in having had dread-fully bad weather in the spring and early summer and were it not for that fact the increase would be considerably greater. Nevertheless, it must be said that, in very adverse circumstances, it is estimated that there will be a significant increase this year. Keeping inflation down is one of the prime objectives of this Government and farming will benefit probably more than any other industry as a result. Costs of inputs had reached an intolerable level, were causing considerable hardship and a resultant lack of investment.

There has been widespread criticism throughout the debate about the attitude of lending institutions to farmers who are in severe financial difficulties. We all appreciate the problems of those people. As one Deputy said last evening, the unfortunate aspect about the present situation is that many of the farmers in severe financial difficulty basically are our best farmers. I think it was Deputy McCartin who made that point rather forcibly. It must be said also that those people were not given money freely by the banking institutions and the ACC, they were carefully vetted. Invariably they were our best farmers, people who had proved themselves over the years, especially during the good years from 1973 to 1978. Unfortunately they got into severe financial difficulties due to the enormous increase in bank interest rates. We have gone a long way to bail out some of those people by the implementation of our rescue package. However, some people are in such severe difficulty that there is no reasonable mechanism by which we can get them out of trouble. But we all feel for these people. I have been doing, and will continue to do everything I can to ensure that any genuine farmer in that category will receive assistance to enable him to return to viability within the farming community.

I have been somewhat disturbed in recent weeks about various criticisms of the financial institutions. Some of that criticism may have been justified because often the attitude of the banks is dependent on an individual bank manager with whom one deals. Of course, some are more sympathetic than others. I have found that many people in the commercial banks have adopted a very reasonable attitude, they have cut their losses and have compromised where people have shown themselves willing to make an effort, within reason, to meet repayments. Some other people perhaps may not have been quite so sympathetic. But it is unfair to make a blanket criticism or vilification of the lending institutions in general. Like any other sector of the community, there are a large number of people in those institutions doing their utmost to help people in difficulty and I trust that policy will continue. If I or the Minister for Finance can assist in some of the other cases which cannot be dealt with by way of the rescue package, then we shall gladly listen to representations and appeals in that regard.

I might refer now to more specific points raised. Deputy Noonan rightly said that the growth of our cattle herd is the key to agricultural expansion. Of course it is. However, we are providing such enormous incentives it is difficult to see what else we can do in this regard. People in the disadvantaged areas can get as much as £169 in grants for a beast and a calf and in the other areas they can get £118. That type of incentive is of enormous value and I am surprised the national herd has not expanded further. However, there was such a depletion of the herd in 1980 due to problems with regard to the income of farmers that it is taking longer than expected to recover lost ground. We will continue to provide the incentives.

Deputy Noonan raised the matter of calf mortality and I agree with his sentiments. Calf mortality represent a serious loss to the economy. The rate is far too high here in comparison with other EEC countries. I am arranging for my Department to consult with ACOT and other agencies as to the best way to tackle the problem. The mortality rate is at an unacceptably high level.

A number of Deputies referred to the serious state of the Irish horticultural industry. I do not believe Deputies are always fair in their comments when they refer to the level of imports and I should like to clarify a few points. We import food to the value of £750 million each year but about £500 million worth of fruit, vegetables and processed food is food that cannot be grown here. It may come from a tropical or a sub-tropical climate. In essence we are importing about £250 million worth of food that could be produced at home, or approximately 10 per cent of our total food exports. While the situation is not satisfactory, neither is it very bad. It is something we are attempting to redress but it will take time and this applies in particular to the horticultural industry which has been in serious difficulties.

At Question Time I have explained repeatedly that we are competing against countries with large populations. Therefore, they have vast markets and combines producing enormous quantities of food at much lower prices than we can do economically in this country. Unfortunately our costs are far higher than some of the countries with whom we are competing and this applies in particular to our energy costs. That raises an interesting point which was covered by Deputy Burke. The glasshouse industry in North County Dublin, and indeed the horticultural industry in that area, is undergoing severe difficulties. Competition is intense. There is evidence that some of our competitors are adopting unfair practices or have an unfair advantage in that they get energy at a subsidised cost. As a result, our growers, and particularly those in the glasshouse industry, cannot compete. There is an opportunity for the agricultural sector to make a case for the utilisation of gas from the Kinsale gas field to assist growers in that area and in any other intensive horticultural area. It would seem a reasonable proposition that the gas be used to put our people in a similar competitive position as those on the continent or in Britain. I have been looking into this matter and I have put the point to the new horticultural group set up by the IFA.

People here seem to dismiss or ignore the fact that we are in the EEC and in a free trading Community. We cannot discriminate against imports but that point has been constantly ignored. We are asked why can we not stop the imports of vegetables and potatoes from Holland and apples from France. We cannot do this because these countries are entitled to import without any duties or restrictions. Since the plant health controls were removed some years ago those countries have been allowed to import freely. While the controls were in existence I think people here were lulled into a false sense of security. They had proctectionism by accident, now that those controls are no longer in operation, this form of protection no longer exists and they are exposed to open competition. It is something we will have to face up to.

Proper presentation of produce is sadly lacking in many instances. We will have to tackle that problem. One has only to go to the supermarket to see the way the Dutch present their potatoes and vegetables. We must aspire at least to reach those standards, if not surpass them. Many of our producers are doing that but if 5 per cent or 10 per cent of them do not present their produce in a proper way they give the whole industry a bad name. As some speakers have correctly pointed out, the proper way to cope with this problem is to set up producer groups and Deputy O'Keeffe referred to this point. I should like to tell him we are doing everything possible to aid such groups and to see that they are set up on a voluntary basis. This year we have provided money for the employment of a market co-ordinator. That is only a beginning but we intend to build on that and we will help the fruit and vegetable industry in every way possible.

(Limerick West): We can be grant-aided by the EEC for producer groups.

We are aware of that.

The people should be made aware of that fact.

We will give people every opportunity to avail of all the help that is there. On the question of disease eradication, I wish to express my appreciation of the positive comments made by Deputies opposite, particularly Deputy Noonan, on the progress that has been made in this area. The figures I quoted last night were rather startling. They showed a dramatic improvement in the situation but it is too early yet to say if that trend is definite and if it will continue. Therefore, we are being somewhat guarded in our comments.

I agree with the comments of Deputy Noonan with regard to the veterinary profession. I have had consultations with one group and I have arranged to meet with the veterinary union. I am interested in having the best relations with all those groups because they are one of the key elements in the eradication programme.

Deputy McCartin and Deputy Kitt raised a number of points about the disadvantaged areas scheme. Deputy McCartin quite rightly stated that 50 per cent of the grants for headage payments is refunded by Brussels and he said we should take the maximum that is available. It is true that a herd owner could get as much as £67 for a beast but if we were to do that the cost to the Exchequer in the first year would be £38 million, a very sizeable sum of money. I am not averse to increasing the headage payments, in particular because of the high rate of grants from the EEC, but if I were to do so, I would be very concerned that the increase was tied to increased productivity. I do not believe we should do it on an absolute overall scale. That was the basis for all these schemes. Some of them have not been very successful in increasing production, for instance, the calf heifer scheme. We thought that would have given a tremendous fillip to increased production but it has only been moderately successful.

(Limerick West): It is early yet.

Yes, but we expected more dramatic improvements. Any scheme must be geared to increased production. The handout mentality is not right. I am concerned that we should be ensuring that production is increased as a result of these payments.

Deputies Leonard and Wilson referred extensively to the western drainage scheme and criticised the way it was working. We are providing £59 million for this scheme for the current year. This is a very worthwhile scheme which has been availed of by farmers, and I hope it will provide the results which the money being ploughed into it merits. Unfortunately a lot of the work done under that scheme, we feel, is wasted. I do not know what the answer to this problem is. During bad weather people put livestock back on the land which had been drained and a lot of the good work was damaged or ruined. It is annoying to see good money not being used to the best advantage.

(Limerick West): Keep the farm modernisation scheme for housing——

A number of Deputies referred to the farm modernisation scheme. When the scheme was being suspended we said out priority on its reintroduction would be to look after the housing of livestock. I agree with Deputy O'Keeffe's sentiments that this should be a priority because too many cattle are not housed in winter time and that has very serious repercussions on the quality of our livestock. This is a cause of considerable concern. Deputy Leonard was gracious enough to agree that the farm modernisation scheme was in need of review. That is an accepted fact.

We have heard considerable comment about the dairy industry. We all read with delight that Bord Bainne have clinched a number of major contracts for the export of butter. They have reached agreement with the Soviet Union for the sale of 9,000 tonnes of butter. This is something we have been pressing at the meetings of the Council of Ministers in Brussels for months past. The British and Germans were objecting to the sale of butter to Russia by the EEC. They turned a blind eye to the fact that the Community were selling enormous quantities of wheat and wine to the Soviet Union, yet they took exception to the fact that we were selling butter to them. We were very annoyed, and rightly so, that that selective attitude should have been adopted. Also Bord Bainne have clinched a deal for the sale of 11,000 tonnes of butter to Cuba. This will be of considerable assistance, in getting rid of the vast quantities in intervention.

Deputy Byrne and Deputy Kitt referred to the cut in the ACOT advisory services. None of us likes to see a cut in advisory services but I want to repeat a point. When the Estimates were drawn up by the previous Government, the plan was to let 141 people in the farm advisory services go. I have gone to considerable trouble to reduce that number to 57, 11 of whom are being let go immediately because they are employed in a temporary capacity and the others will be let go over a two-year period. I do not think that will cause undue hardship. It is a considerable improvement on the previous position.

Deputy Noonan had a great deal to say about land policy. A lot of his comments were mistaken. I do not think we should be at cross-purposes in this matter. We all want to see our land utilised in the best way. We are not in favour of letting millionaires or cheque-book speculators acquire enormous amounts of land. The Land Commission retain their powers in that regard as heretofore. There is no charge. As regards the right of a foreigner coming here to buy land, I want to point out that we are members of the EEC and cannot discriminate against nationals from other EEC countries who intend to farm here.

(Limerick West): I did not say that.

In 1975 the European Court made a ruling that we could not prevent people from other member states buying land if they wished to come here and work it. That is known as the right of establishment. We have been under pressure from the EEC to ensure that that court ruling is implemented. There is no discrimination against Irish farmers or against farmers from EEC countries.

The farmers' retirement scheme has not been completely abolished. It is still open to any farmer who wishes to retire to sell or lease his land direct to a development farmer and to qualify for a pension and a premium.

Deputy Leonard expressed his concern about the import of pigmeat. That problem has been with us for many years. We benefit overall in the pigmeat trade because our exports considerably outstrip our imports. We are delighted that we have a massive order of £45 million for pigmeat to Japan. We are also concerned about the importation of poultry but this is due to the fact that the people in Northern Ireland have a much more developed industry and lower energy and feeding costs. This gives them an advantage. The industry is being developed here and we are investing twice as much this year as we did last year, which is a sign of confidence in the trade to take on these imports.

I agree with Deputy O'Keeffe that our marketing of agricultural produce leaves a lot to be desired. Intervention has had enormous benefits for us because we have been able to sell an unlimited amount of agricultural produce without having to try. It has been a bonanza, but it has eliminated the initiative to go out and sell. With the EEC tightening up on surpluses, that situation is getting more and more dangerous. Unless people are able to market their goods, particularly beef and milk products, we could be in a very serious position in years to come. There is a great need to diversify, whether in milk products such as cheese or in other products. We cannot keep producing one item or species alone.

I am sorry that I have not an opportunity to refer to many of the other aspects raised by individual Deputies. I again wish to thank the Deputies for their involvement in the debate.

Vote put, and a division being demanded, it was postponed in accordance with the Resolution of the Dáil of 8 June 1983 until 8.30 p.m. on the next Wednesday on which the Dáil shall sit until that hour.

Top
Share