Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 Nov 1983

Vol. 345 No. 13

Údarás na Gaeltachta: Ráitis.

Aire na Gaeltachta (Mr. O'Toole)

Is é an chéad rud is mian liom a rá faoi Údarás na Gaeltachta ná go bhfuil dul chun cinn maith déanta aige ó bunaíodh é i dtús na bliana 1980 agus go bhfuil suas le £60m d'airgead poiblí faighte aige ó shin. Ina theannta sin tá súil agam nach mbeidh an Ghaeltacht féin ná an tÚdarás thíos leis an drochphoiblíocht atá ar siúl le tamall. Ach tá fadhbanna áirithe ag an Údarás agus aithnímse go bhfuil dualgas orm mar Aire féachaint chuige go réiteofar iad. I dtús báire ba mhaith liom léargas a thabhairt don Teach ar chuid de na fadhbanna sin.

I ndeireadh na bliana 1981 bhí géarchéim airgeadais ag cuideachta a chuaigh i mbun gnó ar an gCeathrú Rua le cúnamh an Údaráis — CPR Teo — agus bhí an tÚdarás ag iarraidh teacht i gcabhair uirthi ar bhealach éigin. Níl aon chumhacht ag an Údarás iasacht a thabhairt, áfach, ach deirtear go raibh daoine príobháideacha sásta £170,000 a chur ar fáil ar mhaithe leis an gcuideachta cé nach raibh siad toilteanach an t-airgead a chur díreach isteach i CPR Teo. Ina ionad sin deirtear gur osclaíodh cuntas i dTuaisceart na hÉireann do Chairpéid G T Teo, fochuideachta de chuid an Údaráis a bhí éirithe as trádáil, go raibh an cuntas sin faoina smacht ag Príomhfheidhmeannach an Údaráis amháin, gur íoc na daoine príobháideacha an t-airgead isteach sa chuntas sin agus gur fhan sé ansin ó mhí Eanáir go mí an Mheithimh 1982. Ag an bpointe seo caithfidh mé a rá nach bhfuair mé ón Údarás cóip iomlán den chuntas sin ná ainmneacha na ndaoine a chuir an t-airgead ar fáil cé gur iarr mé eolas mar sin go foirmiúil faoi alt 20 den Acht um Údarás na Gaeltachta, 1979, breis agus trí mhí ó shin.

I mí Eanáir 1982 tugadh iasacht £170,000 do CPR Teo as gnáthchuntas Chairpéid G T Teo i gContae Dhún na nGall. Socrú práinneach a bhí i gceist agus luaigh Príomhfheidhmeannach an Údaráis é le Cathaoirleach an Údaráis roimh ré ach, cé go raibh seisean ag glacadh leis go gcuirfí doiciméad ina thaobh timpeall gan mhoill, níor tugadh aon eolas do chomhaltaí eile an Údaráis go dtí mí Iúil 1983. Ní miste a lua freisin gur thosaigh mo Roinnse i mí Lúnasa 1982 ag lorg eolais ón Údarás faoin iasacht ach nach bhfuarthas é. Tamall ina dhiaidh cuireadh in iúl don Ard-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste, atá ina iniúchóir don Údarás, nach raibh míniú faighte.

Ba chuid de ghrúpa cuideachtaí CPR Teo agus, fad a bhí an iasacht i bhfeidhm, is cosúil gur cheap an grúpa cuntasóir le smacht a choimeád ar na cuntais uile agus le féachaint chuige go mbeadh an iasacht le fáil ar ais ag Cairpéid G T Teo mura mbeadh ag éirí go maith le CPR Teo. Dá réir sin aisíocadh an iasacht le Cairpéid G T Teo i mí an Mheithimh 1982. Is cosúil gur aisíocadh a gcuid airgid leis na daoine príobháideacha as cuntas Chairpéid G T Teo sa Tuaisceart an uair sin freisin.

I mí Lúnasa 1982 ceapadh leachtaitheoirí don ghrúpa cuideachtaí atá luaite agam agus bhí tagairt don iasacht i dtuairisc ar nuachtán. I mí Lúnasa 1983 fuair mé litir ó chreidiúnaí de chuid an ghrúpa á rá gur tugadh tosaíocht nár chóir d'aisíoc na hiasachta agus go raibh a ghnólacht féin thíos léi. Ar ndóigh, tá spéis ag na leachtaitheoirí freisin sa rud a tharla.

I will now give the outline of a letter which I got from a creditor of the company. The chief executive expressed horror last week that I was in correspondence with a creditor of this company. However, I cannot stop people from writing letters to me and this letter contained material which I felt was of such importance that it required deep consideration and scrutiny. This letter was sent to me on 18 August last and I quote:

I have noted recent publicity concerning Údarás na Gaeltachta——

Mr. D. Gallagher

An féidir leis an Aire insint dúinn cé scríobh an litir?

Mr. O'Toole

Ní thabharfaidh mé an t-ainm mar tá leachtaitheoir ag plé leis an rud seo ar son an chréidiúnaí céanna.

Mr. D. Gallagher

An raibh an fear sin ar an teilifís aréir?

Mr. O'Toole

Bhí mise agus tusa ar an teilifís aréir. Níl a fhios agam cé eile a bhí ar an teilifís aréir.

Mr. D. Gallagher

Sílim nach bhfuil sé ceart ná cóir go leighfeadh an tAire litir anseo muna bhfuil sé sásta ainm an té a scríobh an litir a thabhairt dúinn anseo sa Dáil.

(Cur isteach.)

Mr. O'Toole

An bhfuil an Teachta sásta glacadh go bhfuil litir faighte agamsa ó chreidiúnaí go bhfuil rudaí ráite sa litir sin a chuireas amhras ortsa agus ormsa i ngeall ar Údarás na Gaeltachta agus an chaoi ar lámhsheáileadh é seo. An éisteoidh tú leis an rud atá san litir?

Mr. D. Gallagher

Níl mé sásta éisteacht leis muna bhfuil an tAire sásta ainm an té a scríobh an litir a thabhairt dúinn. Sílim nach bhfuil sé ceart dúinn anseo a bheith ag plé le rudaí nach bhfuilimid lán-chinnte dóibh.

Mrs. Geoghegan-Quinn

It is in order for a Member of this House to read a letter he has received from somebody without giving the author of the letter?

An Ceann Comhairle

I must be humble enough to say that I was in error about this very matter recently.

I will read from rulings given by my predecessor. I did not know that this was coming up in the House but I simply looked up the rules in connection with something I said here in the past three or four days. The ruling is that a Member is entitled to quote from letters in support of argument but that the names of the persons concerned should not be mentioned. A private letter of a person from outside the House should not be quoted from without the permission of the writer. The ruling goes on that a Member purported to quote from a document which he alleged was prepared in the Minister's office, that the Minister stated the document was a private one and he would not circulate it to members of the public. The Chair ruled that the document came within the scope of rule which provides that private documents may not be quoted without the permission of the persons who issued them. My interpretation of those rulings is that the Minister is in order in giving the contents of this letter without giving the names of the persons who wrote it. I must apologise to Deputy Tunney because in ignorance of these very rulings I gave a different ruling to him yesterday. I am prepared to admit that.

Mr. Tunney

On that point——

Mr. O'Toole

This is eating into my time.

Mr. Tunney

It is only a small point but the order of this House takes priority over the Minister's time or over anything else. It seems strange that yesterday the Chair required me to quote the source of what I was quoting.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have said that.

Mr. D. Gallagher

There are different rules for the other side of the House.

Mr. Tunney

Within 24 hours the rules have changed.

Minister for Foreign Affairs (Mr. P. Barry)

Deputy Gallagher should withdraw that remark.

An Ceann Comhairle

I admit that it is my business to know the rules.

Mr. Tunney

While I accept the ruling of the Chair I am putting on the record that yesterday the Chair challenged my right in the matter of a quotation but that that ruling has now been changed because somebody else is making a point of it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair concedes that he was in error yesterday when he required Deputy Tunney to give the names of the people concerned. The Chair apologises for that but he was not aware then of the rulings he has quoted just now.

Mr. Flynn

On a point of order——

Mr. O'Toole

This is a filibuster.

Mr. Flynn

——it is proper for you to inquire, under the ruling as you have now stated, if the Minister has sought and got the permission of the writer of the letter?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have not said anything of the sort. The Minister should be allowed to proceed. I asked if he were giving the name of the person who wrote the letter.

Mr. Flynn

And he is not. While I do not doubt that the Minister has received some correspondence from someone——

An Ceann Comhairle

As I understood it, the Minister proposed to read a letter without giving the name of the person from whom he got it. I am saying that that is in order notwithstanding the ruling I gave yesterday.

Mr. D. Gallagher

Could we have a copy of the letter?

An Ceann Comhairle

This is most unfair. The Minister, to continue.

Mr. O'Toole

I have here a letter from which I will not quote but from which I will give some details in respect of the contents.

Mr. Flynn

We are trying to be helpful.

Mr. O'Toole

The Deputies are wasting my time.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister should be allowed avail of his half hour.

Mr. Flynn

It could be suggested that no such letter existed.

Mr. O'Toole

Will I have my half hour?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes.

Mr. O'Toole

The letter is written by the managing director of a company in this city who provided material to the Express group of companies of which CPR was one. Material to the value of the following amounts was supplied in the months of May, June and July 1982: £14,965, £58,971, £40,340, £13,133 and £97,743. It was agreed with the directors of the company that this money would be repaid on the basis of 60-day bills of exchange.

Mr. D. Gallagher

Paid by whom?

Mr. O'Toole

By the Express group of companies. When the bills were presented for payment at the appropriate bank the creditor found that he was required to have another name on them. He was given the name that was required. He went to the person concerned and it would appear that that person freely signed the bills of exchange. When no payment was forthcoming the company began making inquiries. Eventually the bills were returned marked, "return to acceptor." It so happened that during the time this company were seeking payment for those goods, by way of bills of exchange as signed by directors of the company and by this other person, on 3 June £90,000 was paid out of the account on the instructions of the third person who signed the bill. This sum was paid into his personal account. On 15 June, £44,000 was paid out in a similar fashion and on 17 June, £59,000 was paid out in the same way. That made a total of £193,000 paid out of the account of the Express group of companies who at the time had sufficient money to meet the demand of this person who has owed money but that person is still twiddling his thumbs and waiting for his money. This letter was received by me and acknowledged by me, but I am charged with having committed horrible crimes in corresponding with creditors of this company. At least that is what the chief executive has charged me with.

Níl aon airgead caillte go dtí seo ag an Údarás ná ag Cairpéid G T Teo de dheasca na hiasachta. Mar sin féin tá cúpla gné den scéal nach dtaitníonn liomsa:

—baineadh feidhm as fochuideachta de chuid an Údaráis le haghaidh iasachta nach bhféadfadh an tUdarás féin a thabhairt, agus —d'fhéadfadh airgead poiblí a bheith curtha i mbaol.

In relation to the danger to public funds, in this letter the author has charged Údarás with fraudulent activity in not paying him moneys which were owed to him, which were signed for by people designated for that purpose and signed for without any form of pressure from him. Then, one of these people came along and withdrew money and lodged it to his own account. If that person proceeds, as indeed he will through the liquidator — I understand that is going on at present — the State is at risk. That is my information, despite the assertions of the chief executive to the contrary and despite the agreement of some members of the board with those assertions.

I will move on now to rud eile — Comhrá teileafóin: Bréis agus trí mhí ó shin——

Mr. Tunney

A Cheann Comhairle, did the Minister indicate to the House during his last contribution in the Irish language, that he was not suggesting that something improper had occurred in the matter of the amounts to which he referred previously in the English language?

Mr. O'Toole

No.

Mr. Tunney

What did the Minister say in the Irish language?

Mr. O'Toole

Tá Gaeilge agatsa.

Mr. Tunney

Tá agus sílim go bhfuil tusa ag——

(Cur isteach.)

Mr. O'Toole

Breis agus trí mhí ó shin tugadh an-phoiblíocht do ghlaoch teileafóin a rinneadh ó óstán ar an gCeathrú Rua go Baile Atha Cliath agus a raibh eolas ag Príomhfheidhmeannach an Údaráis ina thaobh. Shocraigh mé leis an Aire Poist agus Telegrafa go ndéanfadh oifigigh de chuid a Roinne fiosrúcháin faoinar tharla. Thug said cuairt ar an bPríomhfheidhmeannach ach dhiúltaigh sé comhoibriú leo. Ní amháin sin ach thug sé treoir i scríbhinn do bhainisteoir an óstáin gan aon eolas a thabhairt ach oiread. Dúirt sé go dtabharfadh sé eolas d'fhiosrúchán foirmiúil ach, cé go raibh dlíodóirí i dteannta leis, is cosúil nach raibh sé sásta go raibh fiosrúchán foirmiúil ar siúl ag na hoifigifgh.

Maidir leis an bpoiblíocht a tugadh don ghlaoch sin ba mhaith liom a rá gur chuir mé in iúl do Chathaoirleach an Údaráis i litir an 18 Lúnasa nach nglacaimse leis ar chor ar bith go bhfuil eolas faoi chúrsaí an Udaráis á sceitheadh as m'oifig féin. Mheabhraigh mé dó chomh maith gur mithid don Údarás socruithe a chur i bhfeidhm i gcaoi go mbeidh éifeacht chuí le halt 15 den Acht um Údarás na Gaeltachta, 1979, a bhaineann le nochtadh eolais gan chead.

Tá anseo agam tuarascáil a chuir Cathaoirleach an bhoird ar fáil dom i rith na seachtaine ar chruinniú a bhí ag an mbord an Satharn seo caite. Tá sé scríofa as Béarla agus tá fáth leis sin agus glacaim an chúis atá leis, nár dhúirt an Cathaoirleach — in relation to the P & T Inquiry he, the chief executive, stated that the P & T inspector who interviewed him stated that they required information regarding a private inquiry being carried out by the P & T and he felt he should be legally protected in his answers and he denied that he did not co-operate with the inquiry being carried out by the P & T.

Now, an tuarascáil oifigiúil a chuir an P & T ar fáil, cuireadh ocht gceist ar an bpríomhfheidhmeannach agus níor fhreagair sé ceann amháin acu. Dúirt sé i dtosach nach raibh sé sásta iad a fhreagairt gan a bheith i láthair dlíodoirí. Nuair a bhí sé i láthair dlíodóirí dúirt sé an rud céanna nach raibh sé sásta iad a fhreagairt agus níor chualathas go fóill freagra amháin ar na ceisteanna a cuireadh trí fhiosrú oifigiúil ó oifigigh na Roinne Poist agus Telegrafa.

Mr. Molloy

Is the Minister saying that that telephone conversation never took place?

An Ceann Comhairle

Níl ach 10 nóiméad fágtha ag an Aire anois.

Mr. Tunney

On a point of order, maidir leis an tuarascáil dheireannach a thug an tAire i mBéarla, sin tuarascáil a fuair sé ó oifigigh a Roinne féin?

Mr. O'Toole

Ó fheidhmeannach bhord Údarás na Gaeltachta.

Mr. Tunney

I gcumarsáid i do Roinnse, an é an Béarla nó an Ghaeilge a úsáidtear?

Mr. O'Toole

Gaeilge agus Béarla.

Mr. Tunney

Go raibh maith agat.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister has 10 minutes left now.

Mr. O'Toole

Mhínigh mé don Teachta go raibh cúis mhaith leis seo a scríobh as Béarla. Ní mise a scríobh é agus níor scríobhadh i mo Roinnse é ar chor ar bith.

Go luath an mhí seo caite fuair mé litir an-aisteach ó Príomhfheidhmeannach an Údaráis á chur i mo leith go raibh lámh agam féin agus ag daoine eile in iarracht eagraithe chun bonn a bhaint ón Údarás agus ó phost an phríomhfheidhmeannaigh. Ba mhaith liom a rá láithreach nach bhfuil bunús ar bith leis an líomhain sin.

Rinne sé tagairt freisin do na fiosrúcháin a bhí ar siúl ag an Garda i gcásanna áirithe agus dúirt go raibh a fhios agamsa go maith go raibh fáighte amach acu nach raibh aon bhunús leis na líomhaintí a rinneadh. Níl aon eolas mar sin agamsa ná ná ní thuigim cén fáth a mbeadh a leithéid ag an bpríomhfheidhmeannach. Mar fhreagra ar cheist anseo sa Dáil ar an 27 Deireadh Fómhair dúirt an tAire Dlí agus Cirt go raibh cinneadh le tabhairt ag an Stiúrthóir Ionchúiseamh Poiblí i ngach uile chás a bhí i gceist seachas ceann amháin. Bhí fiosrúchán cothrom neamhspleách á lorg ag an bpríomhfheidhmeannach agus dúirt sé ina litir go dtabharfadh sé faoi agóid ocrais mura gcuirfí ar siúl é.

In ainneoin a bhfuil ráite ag an bpríomhfheidhmeannach agus ag comhaltaí aonair den Údarás ó thráth go chéile ba mhaith liom go mbeadh sé lánsoiléir nach bhfuil fiosrúchán poiblí ná fiosrúchán breithiúnach iarrtha ag Bord an Údaráis.

Ó mo thaobh féin de táim ag brath ar na Teachtaí agus na Seanadóirí ar an gComhchoiste ar Chomhlachtaí Stát-Tionscanta Tráchtála chun breithniú ciallmhar a dhéanamh ar chúrsaí an Údaráis. Glacaim leis, áfach, go dtógfaidh sé tamall orthu an obair a chur i gcrích agus, idir an dá linn, beidh ormsa aghaidh a thabharrt ar aon fhadhb phráinneach a bheidh le réiteach.

Ar an 17 Deireadh Fómhair foilsíodh tuarascáil a d'ullmhaigh comhairleoirí bainistíochta Trident i dtaobh an Údaráis. Ní raibh a fhios agamsa, ná ag mo Roinn ná ag comhaltaí an Údaráis go raibh sé sin le déanamh ná níor tugadh cóip den tuarascáil dúinn roimh ré — gan trácht ar dheis a thabhairt dúinn í a léamh agus a phlé sula bhfoilseofaí í. Thug mé freagra mar seo a leanas ar cheist anseo sa Dáil ar an 8 Samhain.

I ndeireadh mí Eanáir seo caite chonaic mé tuairisc i nuachtán maidir le dréacht den tuarascáil atá i gceist agus, nuair a bhuail mé le comhaltaí agus lucht bainistíochta Údarás na Gaeltachta cúpla seachtain ina dhiaidh sin, ghlac mé leis an deis lena rá go raibh ionadh orm nach rabhthas i gcomhairle le mo Roinn faoina raibh ar siúl. Tuigfear mar sin gurb amhlaidh a theastaigh uaim go bhfaighfí cúnamh ó mo Roinn i ndáil leis an tuarascáil. Ar an 8 Márta tháinig comhairleoir go dtí an Roinn chun an cheist a phlé ach, cé go rabhthas ag súil go dtiocfadh sé ar ais nó go gcuirfeadh sé dréacht leasaithe ar fáil, níor tharla sé sin.

Is é mo thuairimse go léiríonn a bhfuil ráite agam — gan trácht ar na ráitis uaidh a bhíonn le léamh agus le cloisteáil go rialta againn — nach bhfuil príomhfheidhmeannach an Údaráis ag feidhmiú mar ba chóir d'aon phríomhfheidhmeannach in aon chomhlacht Stáit. Is ar chomhaltaí an Údaráis atá an dualgas an scéal sin a leigheas. Ar an 20 Deireadh Fómhair bhuail mé le comhaltaí uile an Údaráis seachas duine amháin nach bhféadfadh bheith i láthair. Thug mé eolas nach raibh acu roimhe sin dóibh agus mhínigh mé pointí mar atá luaite agam go dtí seo. D'iarr mé orthu breithniú cúramach a dhéanamh ar na fadhbanna práinneacha a bhí le réiteach agus a gcinneadh faoin ngníomh cuí a chur in iúl dom. Nuair nár léir dom go raibh dul chun cinn á dhéanamh d'iarr mé ar an seisear comhalta arna gceapadh ag an Aire bualadh liom ar an 15 Samhain. I dtús báire luaigh mé prionsabail ghinearálta mar seo a leanas leo:

Ó thaobh dlí de is corparáid aonair le síorchomharbas Aire Rialtais: is é sin le rá go mbíonn leanúnachas ann i gcónaí agus nach gcuireann cúrsaí polaitíochta isteach air nuair a cheaptar Aire nua.

Nuair a bhunaítear comhlacht Stáit chuirtear an fhreagracht ar Aire áirithe ina leith agus is faoi scáth an Aire sin a bhíonn sé ag feidhmiú.

Bíonn dualgas ar an Aire é féin a shásamh go mbíonn feidhmeanna an chomhlachta á gcomhlíonadh mar is cóir.

Mar chabhair don Aire chun an dualgas sin a chomhlíonadh bíonn cumhacht aige de ghnáth ionadaithe a cheapadh ar bhord an chomhlachta.

Bíonn an tAire agus na comhaltaí a cheaptar ag brath ar a chéile chun leas an chomhlachta a chur chun cinn agus bíonn gá le comhoibriú eatarthu — go háirithe chun sciar réasúnta den airgead poiblí — a bhíonn chomh gann sin na laethanta seo — a fháil don chomhlacht.

Is den riachtanas é go leanfaidh na socruithe sin ar aghaidh nuair a athraítear Aire nó comhaltaí.

Bíonn foireann ag teastáil ón gcomhlacht agus ba dheacair feidhmiú dá n-éagmais: dá réir sin is ceann de na cúraimí is tábhachtaí dá mbíonn ar na comhaltaí ná féachaint chuige go mbíonn foireann — agus go háirithe príomhfheidhmeannach — éifeachtach acu.

Dúirt mé leis na comhaltaí go raibh cúrsaí an Údaráis ag cur as dom agus gur léir nárbh é leas an Údaráis ná leas na Gaeltachta go leanfadh na cúrsaí sin ar aghaidh mar a bhí siad. Rinne mé tagairt do phointí a bhí luaite agam ag cruinniú an 20 Deireadh Fómhair agus dúirt mé gur in olcas a bhí cúrsaí imithe ó shin — go háirithe ó thaobh poiblíochta. Chuir mé in iúl dóibh nár léir dom go raibh aon dul as ach aghaidh a thabhairt ar an bpríomhfhadhb, fiú amháin má bhí gá le gníomh míthaitneamhach chun í a réiteach. Mhínigh mé dóibh nach bhféadfainnse glacadh leis go raibh an príomhfheidhmeannach ag feidhmiú mar ba chóir, gur ar na comhaltaí a bhí an dualgas an gníomh ba ghá a dhéanamh agus, mar chabhair chun mo chuid dualgas féin a chomhlíonadh, go mbeinnse ag súil le tacaíocht go háirithe ó na comhaltaí a bhí ceaptha ag an Aire. Phléamar an scéal ar feadh tamaill mhaith agus d'iarr mé orthu a ndearcadh a chur in iúl dom roimh lón inné.

Faoi mar a tharla, is oth liom go raibh triúr de na comhaltaí nach bhféadfainnse glacadh leis an dearcadh a bhí acu agus, sna cúinsí uile, ní raibh dul as agam ach iad a chur as oifig. Ag an am céanna ba mhaith liom a rá go bhfuilim buíoch díobh as ucht a saothair ar mhaithe leis an Údarás.

Mr. Molloy

Would the Minister state if there is a case pending following the fraud squad investigation?

Mr. O'Toole

I do not know, and there are many other things I do not know.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please. I am calling Deputy Gallagher.

Mr. Molloy

In April 1981 the Garda Fraud Squad investigated and no case has been brought forward since. There has been innuendo and——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Gallagher.

Mr. O'Toole

Deputy Molloy is the man to talk about innuendo——

Mr. Molloy

Be a man. If there is a case, make it——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am calling Deputy Gallagher.

Mr. D. Gallagher

Is trua liom go bhfuil gá le díospóireacht den chineál seo sa Teach, agus is trua liom na fáthanna a thug ar aghaidh an díospóireacht. Inné, d'iarramar ar an Taoiseach agus ar an Aire deis cainte a bheith againn sula mbeadh an rud seo pléite sna nuachtáin, sa telefís agus ar an radio, ach ní raibh an Rialtas sásta an deis sin a thabhairt dúinn. Rud eile, a Cheann Comhairle, ní raibh tusa sásta cead a thabhairt domsa fiú amháin ceist a chur faoin rud seo sa Dáil. Dá mba rud é an cead sin a bheith againn, bheadh an cheist faoi na cúrsai seo ar fad pléite againn anseo sa Dáil sula raibh sé sna nuachtáin agus sula raibh an méid cainte faoi'n rud seo déanta taobh amuigh den Teach.

Bunaíodh an tÚdarás le ceart a thabhairt do mhuintir na Gaeltachta dearcadh i ndiaidh chursaí sa Ghaeltacht. Sin rud a bhí á iarraidh ag muintir na Gaeltachta le fada an lá. Cé go raibh Comhrialtas anseo ar feadh ceithre mbliana, níor éirigh leo Bille an Údaráis a thabhairt isteach. Gheall siad go minic é, agus tá mé cinnte, mar atá ráite anseo cheana agam, go raibh Aire na Gaeltachta a bhí ann an t-am sin i ndáiríre faoi Bhille an Údaráis a thabhairt isteach, ach ní bfhuair sé an tacaíocht nó ní bhfuair sé an cead sin rud a chruthaoínn nach raibh siad riamh i ndáiríre faoin Údarás. Tá sé sin le feiceáil go soiléir san méid a tharla ó tháinig an tAire seo isteach agus ó thárla na cúrsaí atá dá bplé againn le cúpla bliain.

Bhí an-bhród ormsa nuair a thug Rialtas Fhianna Fáil cead dom an Bille a thabhairt os cómhair na Dála, agus bhí an-bhród agus ríméad mar dhuine ón Ghaeltacht go raibh mé ag tabhairt deis do mhuintir na Gaeltachta daoine a thoghadh a bheith ag freastal ar chúrsaí na Gaeltachta, dul chun chinn na Gaeltachta agus saol eacnamaíochta na Gaeltachta. Nuair a thogh muintir na Gaeltachta na baill don bhord sin bhí daoine ag muintir na Gaeltachta a thuig cúrsaí na Gaeltachta a chur os cómhair an bhoird, rud nár tharla go dtí sin. Chomh maith, ní dhearna Fianna Fáil dearmad, nuair a thoghamar na baill a bhí le hainmniú ag an Aire nó ag an Rialas, mar chuireamar mar bhaill don bhord daoine a thuig cúrsaí na Gaeltachta, daoine a raibh suim acu i gcúrsaí na Gaeltachta, daoine a raibh cleachtú acu ar céard a bhí ag tarlú sna Gaeltachtaí.

Rinneadh é sin ar mhaithe leis an nGhaeilge. Thuig an Rialtas san am sin an tábhacht a bhí ag baint leis an Udarás agus an chaoi ar cheart dúinn lántacaíocht a thabhairt dó. Toghadh na baill go daonlathach. Ba mhaith liom dul siar ar an méid a bhí le rá ag an Aire nuair a tugadh an Bille isteach — bhí sé sa taobh seo ag an am. Ag colún 49 den Tuairisc Oifigiúil, 2 Samhain 1978, deir sé:

Anois maidir leis an daonlathas — tá fhios agam go ndéarfaidh an tAire go bhfuil iarracht á dhéanamh a bheith chomh daonlathach agus is féidir agus tá an t-iarracht sin déanta, ach ní dóigh liom go dtéann sé fada go leor. Tá seisear á thoghadh ag an Aire ar an údarás agus fágfar seachtar le toghadh ag muintir na Gaeltachta. Ní dóigh liom go mbaineann daonlathas leis sin sa chiall ina dtuigimse daonlathas agus, tá mé cinnte, sa chiall ina dtuigeann an tAire daonlathas agus mar gheall air sin ní dóigh liom go mbeidh pobal na Gaeltachta sásta ar an bpointe sin. Deirim nach leor é sin agus chomh fada agus is eol dom deir pobal na Gaeltachta an rud céanna faoi láthair. Mar sin níl a nguth láidir go leor taobh istigh den Údarás. Ar ndóigh braitheann sé ar cé hiad na comhaltaí a thoghas an tAire é féin. B'fhéidir, má thoghann sé daoine ó na Gaeltachtaí go mbeidh sé ag déanamh rud éigin leis an fhadhb a cheartú.

Thogh mise daoine ón nGaeltacht; thogh mé cathaoirleach, fear as Chontae Mhaigh Eo agus bhí mé bródúil go raibh mé in ann a leithéid de dhuine a thoghadh, cé nach ó mo dháil cheantar féin é, ach duine a raibh taithí agus cleachtadh aige ar obair na Gaeltachta i dTír Chonaill mar innealtóir, áit a raibh baint aige le forbairt na Gaeltachta agus plean forbartha Chomhairle Chontae Thír Chonaill, agus thogh mé chomh maith leis sin Máire Bean Mhic Niallghuis duine a raibh baint mhór aici le cúrsaí na Gaeltachta san Ghaeltacht is mó atá againn i nGaoth Dobhair — thog an Rialtas, ba cheart dom a rá, na daoine sin. Rialtas Fhianna Fáil.

Agus fhad agus a bhain sé liomsa bhí daoine den chéad scoth dhá dtoghadh mar bhaill den Bhord. Thogh muid Maitiú Ó Néill mar dhuine a raibh páirt aige leis an Lucht Oibre, duine a bhí ar Bhord Ghaeltarra roimhe sin agus a raibh eolas aige ar chúrsaí na Gaeltachta agus a raibh an-suim aige sa Ghaeilge agus dul chun cinn na teanga. Ní fhéadfaí a rá go raibh polaitíocht ar bith ann nuair a toghadh na daoine sin. Toghadh iad de bharr an eolais a bhí acu, de bharr an chleachta a bhí acu ar chúrsaí na Gaeltachta agus ar shaol na Gaeltachta agus rinne siad a gcuid oibre go dian-dícheallach, dúthrachtach i ngcaitheamh na tréimhse a chaith siad ar Bhord an Údaráis. Ní thiocfaidh le duine ar bith a mhéar a dhíriú ar rud ar bith casta ná cam a rinne ceachtar de na daoine sin, mar bhí siad ansin ar mhaithe le muintir na Gaeltachta agus chreid siad go dian dúthrachtach ins an obair a bhí ar siúl acu ar mhaithe leis an nGaeltacht.

Leanfaimid ar aghaidh go dtí na cúrsaí a tharla le cúpla lá, an rud atá faoi chaibidil b'fhéidir le dhá bhliain, tig linn a rá. Tá an tAire ag caint ar dhaonlathas agus luaigh sé daonlathas anseo nuair a bhí Bille an Údaráis ós comhair na Dála. Tá sé le feiceáil againn le cúpla lá cén chiall atá ag an Aire nuair atá sé ag caint faoi dhaonlathas. Tá sé ag caint faoi dheachtóireacht, deachtóireacht den scoth is measa a thiocfadh le duine ar bith caint a dhéanamh air. Nuair nach bhfuil sé sásta le céard atá ar siúl ag na baill ar an Údarás, nuair nach bhfuil seisean sásta níl tada le déanamh ach an bhróg a thabhairt dóibh. Bhí Rúnaí Roinn na Gaeltachta mar bhall den Údarás agus sílim gur ceart go mbeadh duine éigin ón Roinn ina bhall den Údarás mar nuair atá an socrú sin ann tá dlúth-cheangal idir an Aire agus an Údarás féin agus is aisteach an rud é go gcaithfidh an Rúnaí anois a bheith ina mhaidrín lathaí ag an Aire, go gcaithfidh sé dul agus rudaí a theastaíonns ón Aire a dhéanamh chuile uair a bheas cruinniú ann.

Mr. O'Toole

Gabh mo leithscéal.

(Cur isteach.)

Mr. O'Toole

Níor cheart do éinne sa Teach seo ainmneacha a ghlaoch ar státseirbhíseach. Rúnaí Roinne.

Mr. D. Gallagher

Níor ghlaoigh mé ainm air.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair discourages Deputies——

Mr. O'Toole

The Deputy referred to a lapdog of the Minister. Ní shuífidh mise anseo agus "lapdog of the Minister" á ghlaoch ar Rúnaí na Roinne.

Mr. D. Gallagher

Níor chaith mé drochmheas ar bith ar Rúnaí an Aire. Tá ardmheas agam air, d'oibrigh mé leis agus tá a fhios agam go rímhaith gur fear macánta é agus cén obair atá déanta aige ó tháinig sé isteach mar Rúnaí ar Roinn na Gaeltachta; agus ní hé amháin go n-aithnímse é sin ach aithníonn muintir na Gaeltachta é chomh maith. Tá ardmheas air i chuile áit ar fud na Gaeltachta agus níl mise ag caitheamh drochmheasa air. Tá mé ag caint faoin mbrú atá á chur ag an Aire seo air lena chuid oibre a dhéanamh mar bhall den Údarás. Sin an rud atá i gceist agam.

Tugadh isteach an Cathaoirleach nuair nach raibh an tAire sásta leis an chaoi ar chaith sé vota ag cruinniú den Údarás agus ní raibh an Cathaoirleach sásta géilleadh do na tuairimí a bhí ag an Aire ná ní raibh sé sásta a intinn a athrú faoi rud a rinne sé. Bhí fearúlacht ann. Shíl sé go raibh an rud ceart á dhéanamh aige agus sheas sé le cinneadh a bhí déanta aige ag cruinniú den bhord. Ansin cuireadh sreangscéal ag an seisear a bhí ainmnithe ag an Aire agus tugadh os comhair an Aire iad agus bhí díospóireacht fada — de réir mar a thuigtear dúinn ó na páipéir — rud nach bhfuaireamar aon eolas air anseo inniu sa ráiteas a thug an tAire dúinn. Bhí díospóireacht fada, deirtear linn, agus níor thángthas ar aon réiteach maidir leis an cheist agus de réir mar atá ráite ag an Aire féin — agus dúirt sé go poiblí aréir é — d'iarr sé orthu an raibh siad sásta glacadh leis an rud a bhí á iarraidh aigesan, go gcaithfidh siad deireadh a chur leis an bhfreastal a bhí nó an bhallraíocht a bhí acu ar Bhord Údarás na Gaeltachta.

Labhair sé ar dhaonlathas anseo. An bhfuil daonlathas ar bith ag baint leis an rud a rinne an tAire. An dtig le duine ar bith anseo a rá go fírinneach ná a ghlacadh leis go bhfuil daonlathas ar bith ag baint leis an rud a rinne an tAire maidir leis na baill seo. Ní raibh éagóir ar bith déanta acu. Ní raibh tada mícheart déanta acu. Shíl siad an chaoi ar chaith siad a vótaí san Údarás nach bhféadfadh siad iad a chaitheamh ar bhealach ar bith eile agus ní raibh siad sásta a n-intinn a athrú ar an rud sin. Níor theastaigh sin ón Aire. Ní raibh sé sásta, agus an daonlathas a bhfuil sé ag caint air anseo, an daonlathas a thuigeann seisean agus an daonlathas a thuigeann a pháirtí thall ansin agus an Rialtas, chuir sé an daonlathas sin i bhfeidhm.

Tá go leor cainte i láthair faoi chearta mná. Chuir sinne bean ar bhord an Údaráis, duine de na chéad mná a cuireadh ar bhord Stáit ar bith — sílim an chéad uair ar cuireadh bean ar Bhord Stáit ar bith. Cé hiad na cearta a fuair sí ón Aire; bean mhacánta; bean a bhfuil an-obair déanta aice in a Gaeltacht féin; bean í a dtiocfadh le comhluadar ar bith a bheith bródúil aisti. Tá sé le feiceáil in a clann féin, san mhuirín atá tógtha aici, agus is náireach an rud é go gcaithfidh sí inniu agus go gcaithfidh na baill eile a fuair an bhróg ón Aire seo, go daonlathach mar a deir sé féin, go gcaithfidh siad an scanall seo atá tugtha, an náire atá tarraingthe orthu a sheasamh ós comhair ní hé amháin a muintir féin, ní hé amháin os comhair muintir na Gaeltachta ach os comhair na tíre ar fad. Agus nílimid ag cur suas leis anseo.

Cén fhaid eile a chaithfidh an tUdarás agus muintir na Gaeltachta cur suas leis na ráflai seo? Nach dtig leis an Aire deireadh a chur leis an rud seo? An bhfuil an tAire Dlí agus Cirt mar bhall den Rialtas in ann cuidiú nó tacaíocht a thabhairt don Aire leis an eolas atá ina Roinn no ag an DPP a chur os comhair an phobail? Ar iarr sé air an t-eolas sin a chur os comhair an phobail ar mhaithe le muintir na Gaeltachta agus ar mhaithe leis an Údarás?

Bhí clár teilifíse ann, agus caithfidh mé a rá anseo, agus tá sé ráite cheana agam inniu ar an raidio, go raibh sé náireach ó thaobh an Údaráis agus ó thaobh muintir na Gaeltachta. Nuair a bheadh clár dá leithéid sin a chur amach ar an staisiún náisiúnta shílfeadh duine go mbeadh cothromaíocht éigin ann agus nuair a bheadh taobh amháin den scéal á gcur go gcuirfí an taobh eile. Ach céard a tharla? Nior chualamar ach an chaint atá cloiste againn le dhá bhliain anuas, go raibh sé seo ag tarlú ansin, go raibh sé siúd ag tarlú san áit eile, go raibh an oiread sin mhonarchana druidthe agus mar sin de. Ní hiad na monarchana atá faoi chúram an Údaráis atá druidthe, ach monarchana ar fud na tíre go léir, monarchana a fuair deontais mhóra ón IDA. Nuair atá clár dá leithéid á chur amach ar an staisiún náisiúnta ba chóir, mar a dúirt mé, cothromaíocht a bheith ann. Ach ni raibh sé ansin aréir.

Tá obair mhaith déanta ag Údarás na Gaeltachta. Tá os cionn 4,000 daoine fostaithe i láthair na huaire ag an Údarás nó faoi chúram an Údaráis, postanna atá sna Gaeltachtaí. Agus thainig an tUdarás isteach, tá an-obair á déanamh acu ag iarraidh monarchana a bhí, b'fhéidir, ag ligean a maidí le sruth a chur chun cinn agus a fheabhsú. Ni raibh creidiúint ar bith tugtha san chlár sin aréir ar an teilifís go raibh maitheas ar bith déanta ag an Udarás nó go raibh buntáiste ar bith san méid a rinne siad ar mhaithe le muintir na Gaeltachta ó cuireadh ar bun an tÚdarás.

Céard iad na ceisteanna atá á gcur ag pobal na tíre agus ag muintir Bhaile Átha Cliath agus daoine ar fud na tíre i ngeall ar an rud seo go léir? Tá a fhios againn céard iad: Cén mhaith ata san Údarás? An bhfuil gadaíocht ar siúl? An bhfuil airgead an Údaráis a chaitheamh go fánach? An bhfuil baill an Údaráis ag cuidiú leo? Na daoine atá ag obair don Údarás, an gadaithe iad go leir? Sin iad na ceisteanna atá a gcur i láthair na huaire. Tá a fhios againn uilig cén dochar atá sé sin á dhéanamh agus céard a tharlós dá bharr. Má tá lucht bainc, tionsclaí a bhfuil fonn orthu bunú sa Ghaeltacht, nó fonn orthu tionscal a chur ar bun sa Ghaeltacht, tá mé cinnte de go gcoinneoidh siad glan air de bharr an drochphoiblíocht atá tugtha don Udarás agus do bhaill an Údaráis agus don phríomhfheidhmeannach le dhá bhliain anuas. Tharla sé seo sa Teach seo. Is dócha go dtig linn a rá ar bhealach amháin go mb'fhéidir gur anseo a thosaigh sé don chéad uair. Caithfidh mé a rá go bhfuil an-dochar agus díobháil déanta de bharr na ráflaí seo agus de bharr na cúl cainte atá ar siúl maidir le cúrsaí an Údaráis.

Nuair a bhí an tAire ag tabhairt a ráitis, léigh sé nó thug sé dréacht dúinn as litir a bhí aige. Leis an fhírinne ghlan a rá, níl a fhios agam céard a bhi ar siúl aige. Luaigh sé suimeanna áirithe airgid. Níl a fhios agam cad chuige a chuir sé an litir seo os ár gcomhair — this person, that person and the other person. Seo é an cineál cainte a bhí aige faoi shuimeanna airgid a bhí ag dul ó dhuine go duine. Tá sé díreach cosúil leis an rud atá ar siúl, an chúlchaint; an bhfuil rud éigin mícheart, an bhfuil rud éigin bun os cionn, an bhfuil airgead á chur amú? Agus maidir leis an cheist a chuir mé ar an Aire anseo nuair a bhi an díospóireacht ar siúl againn, an bhfuil gadaíocht i gceist?

(Cur isteach.)

Mr. D. Gallagher

Cuireadh siad na figiúiri os ár gcomhair. Inseodh siad don Teach cén áit a bhfuil an gadaíocht. Agus bíodh a fhios againn anois, laithreach, chomh luath agus is féidir, cén bun atá leis na cúrsaí seo nó cén toradh atá le teacht ar na cúrsaí seo. Ná bíodh an chúlchaint atá ar siúl, ata ag déanamh an-dochar do chúrsaí an Údarás agus go mór mhór do chúrsaí na Gaeltachta.

Caithfimid uilig ag an bpointe seo ceist a chur céard atá in ann don Údarás? Céard atá le tarlú anois? Is é an trua é nach raibh an tAire sásta ainmneacha na mball a bheas á dtoghadh aige a chur os comhair na Dála. B'fhéidir go n-inseodh se dúinn é seo nuair atá sé réidh. Ach bheadh sé nios fearr, sílim, agus bheadh chuile dhuine sásta leis, dá n-inseodh sé dúinne anseo cé hiad na baill úra atá dúil aige a chur ar an Údarás. Bheadh sé níos fearr dá n-inseodh sé dúinne é ná go mbeadh sinne mar bhaill den Teach seo ag fáil na n-ainmneacha níos moille, ó tharla go bhfuil an díospóireacht ar siúl agus ó tharla go bhfuil an oiread seo cainte anseo faoin Údarás. An rud a fheicimse, maidir leis an Údarás, cuireadh ar bun é mar bhord neamhspleách. Bhí daoine tofa ag muintir na Gaeltachta go daonlathach agus bheadh siad sa tromlach ar an mbord, mórsheisear acu. Bheadh baill eile ainmnithe ag an Rialtas. Ach feasta an mbeidh na daoine seo saor, an mbeidh siad neamhspleách? An mbeidh siad in ann a gcuid tuairimí nó a gcuid moltai nó tada atá ar mhaithe leis an nGaeltacht a chur chun tosaigh? Is é mo bharúil nach mbeidh. Beidh srian orthu, beidh ceangal orthu, beidh lámh an Aire go trom ar a mullach agus ní bheidh siad in ann tada a dhéanamh gan cead a fháil ón Aire faoi na cúrsaí a bhéas á bplé acu. Tá cruthú air sin againn cheana, nuair a d'oibrigh an tAire an lámh láidir ar Rúnaí na Roinne mar bhall den Údarás.

Tá sé le feiceáil go soiléir freisin sa rud atá déanta aige le cúpla lá. Gach ball a bhéas ainmnithe ag an Aire caithfidh sé cloí le tuairimí an Aire. Céard a thárlós ag gnáth-chruinnithe an Údaráis? An mbeidh clár na gcruinnithe leagtha amach ag an Aire? An mbeidh an tÚdarás saor cúrsaí dá gcuid féin a chur ar an gclár, nó an mbeidh siad in ann tada a phlé nach mbeidh an tAire sásta leis? Sílimse gurb é sin an chaoí a mbeidh sé. Ní bheidh siad in ann dul isteach ansin go neamhspleách, agus aon ní a theastaíonn uathu a dhéanamh ar mhaithe leis an nGaeltacht. Ní bheidh siad in ann é a dhéanamh feasta.

Tá chuile Teachta anseo sásta a gcion féin a dhéanamh ar mhaithe leis an nGaeltacht. Sílim gurb é an rud is fearr a thig linn a dhéanamh anseo, in ainm Dé, deireadh a chur leis an gconspóid seo, deireadh a chur leis an gcúlchaint atá ar siúl maidir leis an Údarás, le príomhfheidhmeannach an Údaráis agus baill an Údaráis. Má tá rud as bealach, mar adúirt mé cheana, is féidir linn na daoine atá ciontach a thabhairt os comhair na gcúirteanna — má tá gadaíocht nó rudaí mí-chearta ag tarlú. Chuirfeadh sé sin deireadh leis agus bheimís ag tabhairt cead don Údarás dul ar aghaidh leis an deá-obair atá ar siúl acu chun fostaíocht a chur ar fáil sna Gaeltachtaí agus chun saol mhuintir na nGaeltachtaí a fheabhsú. Sin an méid a theastaíonn uainn, agus tá mé ag iarraidh ar an Aire anseo anocht an méid sin a dhéanamh. Beimid buíoch dó má dhéanann sé é chomh luath agus is féidir.

Mr. De Rossa

Is ócáid ghairid é seo agus ní labhróidh mé níos faide ná mar is gá. Ba mhaith liom a rá ar dtús nach bhfuilim ag déanamh ionsaí ar an Údarás mar údarás, ach ar an slí ina bhfuil an tÚdarás, an Ghaeltacht agus cúis mhuintir na Gaeltachta mar liathróid peile — a political football. Tá dáinséar ann go gcaillfimid an tÚdarás má leanann an chúlchaint agus na ráflaí. Tá géar-ghá le scrúdú poiblí chun an dáinséar sin a sheachaint. Is buachan do dhaoine na Gaeltachta. Ní cóir an buachan sin a chailliúint. Bhuaigh na rudaí sin in aghaidh toil Fhianna Fáil agus Fhine Gael. Ní raibh aon fhonn ar Fhianna Fáil ná Fhine Gael an tÚdarás a chur ar bun go dtí go raibh feachtas as siúl i dtaobh ceartas síbhialta mhuintir na Gaeltachta——

(Cur isteach.)

Mr. De Rossa

Tá sé sin fíor agus ní maith libh an fhírinne. Is cóir an fhírinne sin a chur os comhair an Tí.

We have to accept that the only thing which will cure the present problem of Údarás is a full scale public inquiry into the business of Údarás and how they have conducted themselves since they were established. Last July this House unanimously agreed that there would be an inquiry into Údarás and the Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies were given the task of carrying out that inquiry. That inquiry has not yet begun. That is the fault of this House, not the fault of anybody outside the House. It is the fault of all the Members of this House. I am fairly certain if that inquiry had got under way when this was supposed to happen none of the affairs which have since occurred would have happened and a stop would have been put to whatever kind of mismanagement is going on.

It is also significant to note that a number of the elected members of Údarás have called for an inquiry into Údarás in order to clear the air and to ensure that Údarás can continue. I believe one of the most effective ways of making Údarás more useful and more in tune with the people of the Gaeltacht is that it be a totally democratically elected Údarás and not be in the position where at the whim of the Minister, for whatever political reason, he can remove three members from that board because they refuse to carry out what he dictates they ought to do.

I feel the manner in which the Minister dismissed the three members of Údarás is totally inappropriate and casts a shadow on the characters of the three people he has dismissed. It is totally unfair to do that kind of thing to people who were loyally serving the people of the Gaeltacht and who, under no circumstances, should have been treated in the way the Minister has treated them.

There is a need not only to look at Údarás and the way they have worked but also to look at the way this House and the people of this country have in years past and even today attempted to save the Gaeltacht and save the language. All of the efforts to date have failed. The language is declining and the Gaeltachtaí are declining. It is foolish for anybody in this House to believe, simply by establishing Údarás na Gaeltachta, giving them some money to build some factories, that that will save the Gaeltacht or save the language. There needs to be a complete review of how that has to be done.

There seems to be a lot of play-acting going on in relation to this whole matter. At one stage last year we had the Fianna Fáil Party agreeing that there was a need for an inquiry. Now they are in full agreement that Údarás are doing a great job and should be congratulated for the job they are doing. Last year Fine Gael were urging a judicial inquiry into Údarás na Gaeltachta and the Minister is saying now that he is quite happy to wait until the Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies carry out their inquiry. That committee, in the course of a report to the House, stated that they could not proceed with the inquiry until the House gave privilege to witnesses who go before them. That arose because there was a danger that people who offered themselves as witnesses to the committee conducting the inquiry into Údarás might have a fear that they might be intimidated or abused in some way. That is a serious matter and the House should address itself to it. We are either serious about solving the problems relating to Údarás or we are not.

If we are serious about this matter the Government, within the next few days, should introduce legislation to ensure that at the least the Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies can continue with the inquiry they were asked to carry out in July of last year. There have been a number of serious allegations made in relation to the affairs of Údarás. Allegations have been made of phone tapping, of irregular loans, exorbitant prices being paid for land, of huge land banks being built up for which there is absolutely no need and of factories being built or having been built when large numbers of factories were lying idle. The Fraud Squad have been asked to investigate certain companies under the auspices of Údarás and I understand that the report is with the DPP in relation to those investigations.

It is fairly clear that the problems the Minister is speaking about are only the tip of the iceberg in relation to Údarás. It is pointless for us not to insist that a full, frank and open inquiry be carried out to cover all the operations of Údarás. The Minister, when replying, should give some idea of the steps he proposes to take to ensure that takes place without further delay. Will the Minister indicate if he intends to broaden the powers of Údarás? After all, the demands of the people of the Gaeltacht when they were seeking the establishment of Údarás were that they should be given the same powers as local authorities. It was never intended that Údarás would be solely a poor relation of the IDA in establishing factories on some type of a purely commercial operation. It was intended to broaden and develop other aspects of Gaeltacht life and that Údarás would have control and some say in the development taking place in the Gaeltacht, such as planning and so on. Part of the problem in relation to Údarás is that they have been dealing almost exclusively with commercial matters to the exclusion of other things they ought to be doing for the people of the Gaeltacht. It is essential that whatever is done over the next day or two that the Minister should take every means available to him to clear the names of the three people he dismissed and ensure there is no shadow hanging over them. He should immediately set about ensuring that the inquiry which was agreed unanimously by the House, by Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Labour and the Workers' Party, be got under way without further delay.

Mr. Begley

I should like to take this opportunity to reply to the grave allegations made by Deputy Molloy both inside this House and on RTE radio last week. He alleged that Mr. Eamonn Delaney, an Údarás accountant, was unwittingly duped into becoming involved in a vindictive and unscrupulous conspiracy against Údarás na Gaeltachta orchestrated by me. He went on to imply that Mr. Delaney was so distressed by my activities in pursuing Mr. Delaney's written complaints about the administration of Údarás na Gaeltachta that he suffered a fatal heart attack as a result. In other words, Deputy Molloy claimed I played a major part in Mr. Delaney's death, that I effectively killed him. It is a long time since anyone in Dáil Éireann has been accused of murder. I now feel duty bound to give the House my account of the events referred to by Deputy Molloy.

Deputy Molloy's slanderous statements in this House and on the national broadcasting service, were a clever and malicious collection of half-truths, inaccuracies and fabrications. However, it is true that I have egged on, as he said, the Government and their predecessors, to deal with the running scandal that is going on in Údarás na Galetachta. It is true that I received and handed to the Minister for the Gaeltacht, Deputy O'Toole, when he was in office, a letter from Mr. Delaney outlining in detail a disturbing litany of malpractices in several Údarás companies which the current management had declined to investigate let alone take action on. I should like to place on the record of the House some critical passages from Mr. Delaney's correspondence:

In this letter I am not going to make any references to rumours regarding to what is happening or has happened in the Údarás generally, but I will deal only with companies in which I worked on accounts and on which there is documentary proof of unethical practices. These practices included the obtaining of loans illegally——

Mr. Flynn

On a point of order——

Mr. Begley

——illegal sales of fixed assets, personal expenses paid by companies. All of these charges were brought to the notice of the manager in the Údarás who was responsible for these companies, and no action was ever taken. The sums involved range up to £200,000 plus. The main companies are——

Mr. Flynn

The Chair should tell the Deputy that he is not being recorded once I call for a point of order. He will have to start again.

Mr. Begley

I will certainly go back over it.

Mr. Flynn

Is it regarded as proper for the Deputy to read from letters of deceased people when we cannot verify if they in fact wrote the letters?

Mr. Begley

I will place a copy of the letter on the floor of the House and in the Library.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy can quote from the letter and I do not have any control over that.

Mr. Flynn

On another point of order, that is different from the Standing Order outlined by the Ceann Comhairle earlier this evening. He said it was necessary to seek the permission of this person, who is now deceased.

Mr. Tunney

That order was made.

Mr. Flynn

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle should refer to Standing Orders now because he might be doing a great disservice to people who will not and cannot defend themselves here or outside the House.

Mr. Begley

I wish Deputy Molloy had taken that into account when he made charges about this letter last week. The letter continues:

All of these charges were brought to the notice of the manager in the Údarás who was responsible for these companies——

Mr. Flynn

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is no Standing Order on the matter.

Mr. D. Gallagher

There was a ruling tonight.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will Deputy Begley indicate what letter he is reading from?

Mr. Begley

I am reading from a letter the late Eamonn Delaney wrote and which was handed to me. It resulted in Deputy Molloy making a charge against me the other night saying that I killed that man. I have an obligation, to myself and my family, to place on record this letter to prove that what Deputy Molloy was saying was nothing but a fabrication.

Mr. D. Gallagher

It is necessary that we have the Ceann Comhairle in the Chamber because he gave a ruling on this matter already tonight. I do not believe the Clerk was present at that time. The Ceann Comhairle ruled that a letter could not be quoted without the permission of the person involved. If the person is deceased how can one get permission to read his letter?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I was not aware of that.

Mr. D. Gallagher

It is for that reason that we should have the Ceann Comhairle present.

Mr. Begley

The Ceann Comhairle went as far as possible but in the circumstances I find myself in I have no other way of clearing my good name in the House. I am now going to name the companies mentioned in Eamonn Delaney's letter.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should wait a moment. Neither the Clerk of the Dáil nor I was present when the Ceann Comhairle made the ruling. If the Ceann Comhairle made a ruling in my absence that ruling will continue through this debate.

Mr. Barrett

(Dún-Laoghaire): There is nothing in Standing Orders about this.

Mr. Begley

I will now name the companies——

Mr. D. Gallagher

If the Deputy insists on going ahead to read the letter I will have to insist that we have the Ceann Comhairle to repeat the ruling he gave this evening.

Mr. Begley

I will now name the companies: Hydromarine Teoranta. Westcon Teoranta, Westsea Teoranta, Ostan Ceathru Rua, C.P. Teoranta and Ostan Dún an Ór.

Mr. Flynn

The Chair should ask that this cease and that the taking of notes cease. This is highly improper and the Deputy is abusing the privilege of the House by continuing to read from a letter he is not entitled to read.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

He is not in a position to get permission to read it, unfortunately.

Mr. D. Gallagher

I insist that the Ceann Comhairle be called.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is the Deputy finished reading the letter?

Mr. Begley

I am not reading from the letter. Following advice from the Attorney General, the Government sent in the Fraud Squad to investigate the alleged irregularities in the companies mentioned in the letter. In the past three months I have tabled parliamentary questions to the Minister for Justice concerning the six companies. The six companies are: Hydromarine Teoranta, Westcon Teoranta, Westsea Teoranta, Ostan Ceathru Rua, C.P. Teoranta, Ostan Dún an Ór. In his reply the Minister for Justice said he had no function in the matter but he volunteered the information that there was no prosecution taking place in one company. In other words, the other five companies are in the DPP's office under active consideration. I respectfully suggest to the DPP that he issue a statement immediately regarding the companies. We do not want another MacArthur affair as far as this is concerned.

It is true that I spoke to The Cork Examiner in January 1982 but it was to demand an inquiry into the affairs of the Údarás. Deputy Molloy will have to look inside his own party to trace the chain of events that led to the fingering of the late Mr. Delaney, his suspension and the publication of newspaper stories concerning the affair only days before the tragic death of Mr. Delaney.

When Fianna Fáil returned to office in 1982 Deputy Padraic Flynn, as Minister for the Gaeltacht, announced there would be no inquiry into the affairs of the Údarás. Within a month Mr. Delaney was suspended and a story by Cian O'hÉigeartaigh appeared in The Sunday Tribune which was carried later by the other newspapers. That was very sympathetic to the predicament of Mr. Frank Flynn who had suspended Mr. Delaney under section 15 of the Act for unauthorised disclosure of information. The article quoted Mr. Flynn as stating that, “Mr. Delaney's position would be reviewed pending the completion of the Garda investigations.”

It is also true to state that Mr. Delaney was an honourable man. As long ago as May 1982, only weeks after his death, I called for the clearing of his name and both myself and the Minister, Deputy O'Toole, acknowledged that Mr. Delaney had acted at all times in the national interest. Only last July I reiterated the demand. How honourable is Deputy Molloy in this situation? It has taken him nearly 18 months to break his silence on matters concerning Údarás na Gaeltachta. Mr. Delaney and an Údarás accountant came to him about a matter of great concern. Deputy Molloy never addressed himself to the "uncomplimentary" thing as he put it in what Mr. Delaney had written about the Údarás. Deputy Molloy never publicised his astonishment at the conspiracy and intrigue involving myself and the Minister until last week, 18 months after Mr. Delaney's death. Deputy Molloy declined to intercede on Mr. Delaney's behalf when he was victimised, intimidated and suspended by the chief executive of the Údarás, Mr. Frank Flynn.

Mr. Flynn

On a point of order, when the Ceann Comhairle was in charge of this debate he stated that apart from it being improper to read without permission from letters that were sent to an individual it was also improper to refer to individuals by name. We have had a continuous breaking of that regulation by the speaker in possession. I think the Leas-Cheann Comhairle should call him to order. He is abusing the privileges of this House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

He has only a few minutes left. I have been listening to him and so far I do not think he has been out of order.

Mr. Begley

Deputy Molloy's concern now rings very hollow. Deputy Molloy is the latest recruit to the great Údarás cover-up campaign. Fianna Fáil in their attempt to congratulate the work of the Údarás are denigrating the memory of their founding fathers, de Valera, Lemass, Ryan and MacEntee. These people would have meted out rough justice to those who have been fooling the people of the Gaeltacht for the past few years. However, the major Opposition party are no longer a credible organisation in Irish politics. In the case of Deputy Molloy, he has bent facts, disregarded the truth and blatantly rewritten history to protect wrongdoers in the process. The illegal bugging by Mr. Flynn of Mr. John Devine's telephone conversation with a Government official was described by Deputy Molloy as "overheard in conversation".

Mr. Flynn

I do not know of any telephone message. What is the Deputy on about?

Mr. Manning

It is the other Mr. Flynn.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Begley

I suppose we should not expect too much from a political party who specialise in bugging and electronic surveillance. I would welcome an independent international firm of auditors——

Mr. P. Gallagher

It is a pity the Deputy is not a Minister.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Begley

However, I do not expect Deputy Molloy to apologise. I will not even demand an apology. The Deputy is not the only Fianna Fáil representative who has suddenly discovered great merit in the development performance of Údarás na Gaeltachta. Speaker after speaker on Radio na Gaeltachta for the past few weeks have been recent converts to the view that Údarás na Gaeltachta are doing a good job by encouraging prosperity and social stability in the Gaeltacht areas. One wonders what is behind this dramatic change of hearts and minds? For instance, as far back as 1977 the former Leas-Cheann Comhairle and Chairman of the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party, Deputy Tunney, said there was a cover-up going on. On 31 March 1977 he put six questions to Deputy O'Donnell, the then Minister for the Gaeltacht. I will not go into details on the matter but Deputy Tunney knows what I am talking about.

Mr. Tunney

I do not know.

Mr. Begley

Deputy Tunney knows what I was talking about. He wrote a letter but I shall not read it out to the House in order to be fair to him.

Mr. P. Gallagher

The Údarás did not exist then.

Mr. Begley

I will not read out the letter but it is here if Deputy Tunney wishes to read it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is drawing fire. I ask him to continue with his contribution.

Mr. Tunney

Aon rud a scríobh mé uair ar bith do dhuine ar bith tá mé sásta go léifí amach anseo é. Tá mé ag iarraidh ar mo chara an litir a léamh amach. Ní bheidh aon embarrassment ormsa.

Mr. Begley

Seo é an litir:

A Sheáin, a chara, labhair mé leis an fear mór an lá úd agus tá sé tar éis páipéirí áirithe a fháil.

Le buíochas.

Séamus Ó Tonnaí.

(Cur isteach.)

Mr. Tunney

What is that?

Mr. Begley

At this point——

Mr. Tunney

Dúirt an Teachta go raibh litir uaim, ach níl tada sa litir sin. Tá mé ag iarraidh ar an Teachta an litir a léamh anois agus tuigfidh gach éinne nach bhfuil rud ar bith sa litir.

Mr. Begley

I should like to proceed with my contribution. I should like to bring to the attention of the House, the Taoiseach, the Leader of the Opposition and the press a very serious and sinister development that has recently taken place in relation to Údarás na Gaeltachta. I have been a Member of this House for many years and have been involved in many debates but never before have I been subjected personally to threats to my safety. My home in Dublin has been broken into and gardaí from Pearse Street have visited me. I have been subjected to personal abuse on an unprecedented scale. I have been told by a Deputy in this House that I have to watch myself that people have been employed to take care of me.

Mr. Flynn

There is a contract out on the Deputy.

Mr. Begley

He who laughs last, laughs best.

Mr. Molloy

Fairy tales from south Kerry.

Mr. Begley

If the Deputy lived in my house he would know the meaning of it. However, I do not mind being intimidated——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Begley

Nobody in this House or in this country will intimidate me.

Mr. D. Andrews

The Deputy is a phoney and a fraud. He is a political dirt bird, a political seagull.

Mr. Begley

I will not take any notice of the Deputy. I know what his brother said about the gardaí because his son was pulled in.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Begley

It is significant that an esteemed reporter, John Devine, should get a phone call at 3 a.m. and that the Garda should give him special security for two days. It is ridiculous that a man of the calibre of Seán O'Foghlú should get threatening phone calls. His wife is now in hospital. For many months he has been receiving rude telephone calls and he has reported the matter to the Post Office authorities.

It is ridiculous that as part of the Údarás saga £150,000 should have been paid for ten acres of land in Cork. It is ridiculous that £63,000 was paid for 20 acres of bogland in Kerry.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Begley

It is ridiculous that a substantial grant could be given for a coffin factory in Dungloe and it has not produced one coffin yet. They may make a coffin for me before I am finished. It is ridiculous that £200,000 has been put aside for a hurley factory in Galway, for which another grant is on the way.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Begley

Taxpayers' money is being misspent. It is ridiculous that £419,000 should be spent on consultants' reports since 1979, that the company which produced the Trident report received £125,000 since 1979 and £23,000 for the latest report. Some members of that company were part-time workers of Údarás na Gaeltachta and if they could not come up with the right report their services would not have been required for very long.

Mr. D. Gallagher

What is the Minister doing about it?

Mr. Begley

Between January and September this year £125,000 has been spent on consultants' reports. The Minister was quite right when he fired the three members of the Údarás.

Mr. P. Gallagher

Shame on you.

Mr. Begley

Three times he asked them where the £170,000 came from; three times they laughed and scoffed at him and completely ignored him. Any request made by a Minister under the Act must be respected. That Deputy Denis Gallagher ignored this shows the respect he has for democracy. He has little or no such respect when he cannot stand behind the Minister. We have heard on radio and television that two Unionists from the North supplied the money and it is claimed that if their names were disclosed they would be shot. That must be the greatest cock and bull story ever told. The next thing we will be told is that Adam wore pampers in the Garden of Eden.

All of us have an obligation to defend the Údarás but we must let the Minister clear up the mess. Deputy De Rossa is right. This is only the tip of the iceberg. We must clear up the matter and restore confidence in Údarás na Gaeltachta.

Mr. Flynn

Is cúis mhór bhróin dúinn uile, go háirithe do Theachtaí ó iarthar na tíre, go bhfuil orainn an cheist seo a phlé sa Teach: an droch-ghníomh atá déanta aige in aghaidh na teanga, an droch-ghníomh atá déanta aige in aghaidh an Údaráis agus an droch-ghníomh atá déanta aige in aghaidh an chórais daonlathaigh. Táimid ag éisteacht anois le tamaillín leis an chaint atá tagtha ón Uasal Begley. Is cúis gháire an rud ar fad don Teachta Begley ach ní cúis gháire dúinn ar an dtaobh seo den Teach. Is cúis an-tábhachtach é agus is cúis bhunúsach atá i gceist maidir leis an teanga agus feabhsú agus leathnú na teanga.

A mhalairt de scéal an cuspóir seo leis an Uasal Begley agus tá rudaí ráite aige agus geallaimse ní bheidh sé sásta na rúdaí a rá taobh amuigh den Teach seo. Tá dochar déanta ag an Aire sna laethanta atá taobh thiar dúinn díreach agus leanfar leis an dochar sin ag meadú agus ag leathnú go fada an lá. Níl anseo ach an chéad buile den phlean brisithe atá aige le haghaidh na teanga agus na nGaeltachtaí agus muintir na Gaeltachta. Sin an rud atá roimhe — meon agus misneach muintir na nGaeltachtaí a bhriseadh ar fad ach táimidne ag cur in a aghaidh agus dá mbeadh duine nach mbeadh mórán eolais aige faoi chúrsaí na Gaeltachta ná faoin cur i gcéill a bhaineann le Fine Gael ag éisteacht le Teachtaí ón pháirtí sin sa diospóireacht seo, cheapfadh sé go raibh fonn orthu cuidiú le Údarás na Gaeltachtá — cáirde móra an Údaráis mar dhea. Is í fírinne an scéal ár ndóigh gur Aire de chuid Fine Gael, Aire na Gaeltachta agus an tAire Airgeadais a d'fhéach chuige go bhfágfaí an tÚdarás ar an ngannchuid ó thaobh airgid sa bhliain 1982, le laghdú 27 faoin gcéad an bhliain sin i soláthar caipitil, i gcaoi nach bhféadfadh an tUdarás leanúint ar aghaidh lena gcuid oibre ar mhaithe leis an Ghaeltacht — £4,500,000 breise a fuair mise do mhuintir na Gaeltachta agus caithfidh mé a rá leis an Aire nach raibh sé ar intinn aige leanúint ar aghaidh ar chor ar bith leis an Údarás ag an am sin. Bhí sé ar intinn aige deireadh a chur leis an Údarás agus tá sé ag déanamh an iarracht céanna anois inniu.

I carry no brief for Frank Flynn. He is tough, resourceful and articulate and I had my differences of opinion with him. I doubt very much if he would regard me as his favourite person but in any of the dealings I had with the Údarás I found no illegality which required me to do what the Minister is now attempting.

It is wrong to say that I was not prepared to have an inquiry into the affairs of the Údarás. It was my amendment to the motion of Deputies Kenny and O'Toole last July which brought about the unanimous decision here which would have allowed the Údarás to be investigated by the Members of this House. Let it be said that if I had found any misdeed, malpractice or whatever, I would have dealt with it much more quickly than the Minister.

Let us get to the basics of the matter. We have seen an unprecedented Government action demanding that a State board should do their political dirty work. What evidence had the Minister against the three people whom he unceremoniously sacked last evening?

Mr. O'Toole

Do not evade the issue.

Mr. Flynn

The Minister stated in his opening speech:

Faoi mar a tharla, is oth liom go raibh tríur de na comhaltaí nach bhféadfainnse glacadh leis an dearcadh a bhí acu ....

He could not accept the dearcadh and I take it that "dearcadh" means the outlook of the three individuals. For that they have been sacked. He had not the courtesy or decency to exonerate them from any suggestion of malpractice or wrongdoing that might be levied against them outside this House. One would have thought that even if he found it necessary to sack them he could at least have said in their defence that they did nothing wrong while performing their duties on behalf of the people in the Gaeltacht. What is the evidence against those three people? What evidence is there against an príomhfheidhmeannach? An méid atá leagtha síos sa ráiteas atá romhainn inniu, an ea? It is a collection of suppositions and the Minister is perpetrating a scandalous travesty of the justice that is accepted and respected as normal practice in this country.

It is not true for the Minister to say that it is up to the board to decide on Mr. Frank Flynn's fate. The Minister is deciding it himself in two ways. He is manipulating the democratic process and bypassing the will of the elected representatives on the board. It was for that reason that the board was set up originally by Fianna Fáil and promoted in this House by Deputy Denis Gallagher, to give the people of the Gaeltacht an opportunity to develop themselves and to have a say in their own destiny. The Minister by manipulating the process is bringing about a situation where he will gain the majority vote on that board, and that is an indecent abuse of political power.

Mr. Molloy

It is Unionist tactics.

Mr. Flynn

The second method being used by the Minister — perhaps the most damning of his actions in the last two days — is that he is setting preconditions for acceptance for nomination to any board in the State. He is telling those whom he wishes to appoint to a board that they can only serve if they follow his dictate and, if not, they will be sacked. That is a brazen, blatant and political abuse of power and the Minister stands indicted for it. He is not suggesting by his attitude or actions that he is just going to replace Fianna Fáil members on the board. He is saying that anyone who dares to disagree with his dictate will suffer the same penalty. We might as well clear up the matter because that is precisely what the Minister said when interviewed last evening and reiterated and confirmed by the chairman of the board today. He said they were given the ultimatum that, unless they carried out the Minister's wishes and did his bidding, they would be sacked. I do not know what kind of fair play or common natural justice is being practised by the Minister, but it is a long way from the traditions of this House.

It goes further. It is a vote of no confidence in the total board and tantamount to suggesting that they are acting ultra vires. It is an insult, not just to the remaining members of the board or to the elected members of the board, but to the electorate. That is the insult that is felt most bitterly and keenly by the people of the Gaeltacht area following the ministerial action. The Minister cannot act as judge and jury in all matters. His attitude goes beyond the norms of natural justice in that he says they are guilty even though they are not proven guilty.

One of the most despicable aspects of all this business in the last two days is the use and the abuse of the accounting officer of Roinn na Gaeltachta. He has been used to throw the Minister's snowballs which were made behind closed doors and flung on various occasions, particularly last Saturday, in dealing with respected and respectable members of the board. It raises the whole question of appointing civil servants as members of boards and semi-State companies. It is not fair to utilise a person in such a way. I must put it to the Minister that when he was asked last evening if in fact he had used one of his officials in this way he declined to answer and moved away from the question. That casts aspersions on people who should be above that kind of thing, because in my time with the same accounting officer I found him to be a man of the highest integrity and principles in dealing with all matters that came before him. Indeed, I wish to say that about the total staff of Roinn na Gaeltachta. The Minister has done a disservice to the reputation of that staff.

The fraud squad were involved last year in matters concerning the Údarás. I was aware of investigations they were carrying out even though I did not know the names of the companies and, to the credit of the accounting officer, he would not under any circumstances break confidence and give any information that was not proper. I was aware that the investigations were carried on for a long period because I continually sought information as to when they would bring in their findings so that we could clear up once and for all an droch-chaint, an chúlchaint agus na ráflái a bhí ag dul thart ar feadh an tsamhraidh ar fad maidir le himeachtaí a bhí ar siúl in Udarás na Gaeltachta.

They did not bring it in and I understand the Minister has no evidence of any action they might be taking through the DPP. Was that not the whole basis for the Deputies seeking their so-called judicial inquiry last year? If the Minister was so anxious to have a judicial inquiry when he was putting us all through the agonies last year, why did he not do the job on his first day in office? He did not do it because when he took up the reins of power again he discovered there was nothing to investigate. I asked for that information to be placed before me and I could not find any single item where I could say that the Príomhfheidhmeannach or any member of the board of Údarás lined their pockets or did anything illegal. I challenge the Minister this evening to state unambiguously and unequivocally he is sure that nobody has done anything illegal in so far as the activities of Udarás na Gaeltachta are concerned. It was unreasonable for the Minister not to see the Príomh-fheidhmeannach and the chairman of the board when they requested a meeting with him.

This raises the whole question of the Coalition's attitude to Government appointees. Is this the tactic that is to be used in respect of the appointees to any board under the control of the Coalition: that they would set out the ground rules for them before appointing them and that if they are not prepared to play ducks and drakes for the Minister they will not serve? The Minister goes to great pains to say that this is not personal and political. The Minister protests his innocence too much in this regard. What crime has O'Malley of Castlebar committed that so necessitates his immediate dismissal? He sought the information for the Minister. He gave the Minister all the information he had. He promised to seek the information and said that if he could get it he would give it to the Minister. The auditor accepted that there was no Government money at risk so far as the board were concerned.

Mr. O'Toole

Wrong.

Mr. Flynn

Did Mr. O'Malley do any less than the three whom the Minister has chosen to allow stay? They could not have given the information either because they did not have it. Did the Minister ask the secretary of his Department to seek the dismissal of Mr. Flynn? The Minister has said that appointees are there to carry out the Minister's orders, that that is their specific function. If the Minister applies that to Aer Lingus, CIE, Board Fáilte, RTE or any of the 200 companies where there are Government appointees, there will be no democracy left. What we will have is Government by diktat and that is only one step away from Government by dictatorship. According to the Minister, boards are to be loaded with Ministers' appointees, given their instructions and told that it is their specific function to carry out the will of the Minister of the day. That thinking never applied in Ireland until the Minister came to office. It was always understood that these people would use their good offices and their experience in the best interest of the board on which they were placed irrespective of political affiliations or appointments.

How did the three survivors carry out their responsibility in a way that was any different from the three who were sacked by the Minister and who gave him all the information they had? Have these people who are left bent the knee and agreed to be the Minister's stool pigeons? Is that what is meant by the ominous silence so far as they are concerned? What vestige of reputation, integrity or impartiality is the Minister leaving them? What hope have we of confidentiality for industrialists or investors who might be dealing with members of the board? What hope have we of cohesion at board level when there is open conflict generated and perpetrated by the Minister as between the elected members and the nominated members who are carrying out his directions? What hope have we of an effective administration at executive level? Who is next to go? One needs to have a scaffold before hanging someone but that is what is being done by the Minister and the Government in the past two days. This is not common justice and we ask the Minister to withdraw his decision to remove those people from the board.

Mr. McGinley

Is trua liomsa go bhfuil rudaí mar atá i láthair na huaire. Is as an Ghaeltacht mise agus is dócha ar an taobh seo den Teach go bhfuil níos mó ceantair Ghaeltachta i mo Dháilcheantar ná b'fhéidir i gceantar éinne eile agus mar sin aon rud a chuireann isteach ar fhorbairt sa Ghaeltacht cuireann sé isteach ar an cheantar agus ar na daoine go bhfuil mise ag déanamh ionadaíochta orthu.

Ag éisteacht le cainteoirí ar an taobh eile den Teach anseo trathnóna agus ar an teilifís agus ar an raidio le cúpla seachtain, mheasfadh gach duine ag éisteacht leo go bhfuilimidne ar an taobh seo den Teach i gcoinne Udarás na Gaeltachta ón chéad lá agus ba mhaith liomsa a rá nach mar sin atá.

(Cur isteach.)

Mr. McGinley

Chuaigh mise go dtí an trioblóid inniu sular tháinig mé isteach anseo dul siar ar na díospóireachtaí a bhí sa Teach seo nuair a ritheadh an Bille tríd an Teach seo chun Údarás na Gaeltachta a chur ar bun agus chonaic mé cad a bhí le rá ag na daoine a labhair ó phairtí Fhine Gael mar gheall ar an Bille seo. Nuair a tugadh an Bille isteach chun Údarás na Gaeltachta a chur ar bun, dúirt urlabhraí Fhine Gael ag an uair sin, An Teachta Tomás Ó Domhnaill agus——

(Cur isteach.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy McGinley without interruption, please.

Mr. McGinley

—— agus na daoine eile ar an taobh seo den Teach labhair siad amach, thug siad tacaíocht don Bhille i leith Údarás na Gaeltachta nuair a bhí sé ag dul tríd an Teach seo cúig bliana ó shin agus tá sé seo ar an record le fáil ins an leabharlann ag éinne go bhfuil fonn air dul isteach agus é a lorg. Nuair a chuaigh an Bille go dtí an Seanad labhair Páirtí Fhine Gael ins an tSeanad ar son Bille Údarás na Gaeltachta. Ní raibh aon vóta anseo ins an Teach. Ní raibh daoine ag rá Tá, agus ní raibh daoine ag rá Níl. Bhí Fine Gael agus gach páirtí eile i bhfábhar an Bille a chur tríd an Teach agus tá a fhios sin ag an Teachta Donncha O Gallchóir mar is é a bhí ina Aire ag an am sin.

Fiú amháin nuair a bhí an Bille ag dul tríd an Seanad labhair mo chara féin a bhí ina urlabhraí ar chúrsaí Gaeltachta ag Fine Gael ag an am sa Seanad agus atá — buíochas do Dhia — ann go fóill agus gur féidir leis labhairt amach ar a shon féin, labhair sé agus thug sé tacaíocht an-láidir don Bhille — agus is é an duine a bhfuil mé ag déanamh tagairt dó ná an Seanadóir Andy O'Brien as chontae an Chabháin. Nuair a bhí an Bille ag dul tríd an Seanad ar an 28 Feabhra 1979 agus tá mé ag léamh as an Tuairisc Oifigiúil, Colún 273, dúirt an Seanadóir Ó Briain "cuirim fáilte roimh prionsabal an Bhille agus guím rath ar an obair atá i lámha an Aire chun an Bille a stiúrú agus chun an tÚdarás a chur ar bun. Guím freisin rath ar obair an Údaráis nuair a bheidh sé i réim".

Chuaigh sé ar aghaidh mar sin agus fad is a bhí sé ag caint rinne sé tagairt eile do óráid an Aire. Ar an gcéad leathanach deir sé: "Mar is léir ón mBille seo tá fonn ar an Rialtas seasamh i bhfad níos láidre a thabhairt do phobal na Gaeltachta ná mar a bhí i gceist cheana" agus dúirt an Seanadóir Ó Briain an lá sin san Seanad: Aontaím go mór leis an cuspóir sin. Mar adúirt mé cheana, tá súil agam go n-eireoidh leis", agus téann sé ar aghaidh mar sin. Thug na Baill go léir a labhair tacaíocht don Aire nuair a bhí an Bille ag dul tríd an Dáil agus tríd an Seanad. Ba mhaith liom é seo a rá; nuair a bhí toghchán ann ar fud na Gaeltachtaí fá choinne daoine a thoghadh le bheith ar Údarás na Gaeltachta ghlac Páirtí Fhine Gael páirt an-ghníomhach ins an toghchán sin. Chuaigh siad amach agus bhuaigh siad an suíochán agus d'éirigh leo cúpla ionadaí a fháil ar Bhord Údarás na Gaeltachta.

Mar sin, ní shílim go bhfuil an fhírinne acu nuair adeir siad go bhfuilimidne anseo i gcoinne an Údaráis agus go bhfuil fonn orainn é a scrios. Mar Theachta Dála as an nGaeltacht tuigim cé chomh tábhachtach agus atá sé go mbeadh eagraíocht cosúil le Údarás na Gaeltachta ag breathnú i ndiaidh fhorbairt agus fostaíocht a chur ar fáil sa Ghaeltacht agus tá súil agam gur mar sin a bheidh an scéal as seo amach nuair a bheidh an cheist seo réitithe mar is ceart a bheith.

Nuair a cuireadh an tÚdarás ar bun ghlac siad cúram orthu féin ó Ghaeltarra Éireann. Cuireadh Gaeltarra Éireann ar bun sna caogadaí agus d'éirigh leo forbairt áirithe a dhéanamh sa Ghaeltacht. Sna seascadaí agus sna seachtóidí, go spesialta ó 1973 go dtí 1977 nuair a bhí Tomás Ó Domhnaill ina Aire Gaeltachta, rinneadh forbairt an-mhór sa Ghaeltacht. Ní shílim gur féidir le héinne a shéanadh nuair a ghlac sé cúram na Gaeltachta air féin i 1973 go raibh 1,700 no 1,800 duine ag obair agus nuair a chuaigh sé as oifig in 1977 go raibh breis agus 3,000 fostaithe ag Gaeltarra Éireann.

Mr. Flynn

Toradh obair Fhianna Fáil a bhí ann.

Mr. McGinley

Toradh obair Thomáis Uí Dhomhnaill, agus tá a fhios ag muintir na Gaeltachta é sin, an fear a chuir na h-aerstráicí ar bun ar fud na Gaeltachta agus na báid fharantóireachta agus gach rud eile.

(Cur isteach.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. McGinley

——chun monarchana a oscailt, agus aon mhonarcha a dúnadh sna Gaeltachtaí dhún siad nuair a bhí an Teachta é féin nó an duine a chuaigh roimhe i mbun Roinn na Gaeltachta.

Nuair a chuaigh an tÚdarás i mbun dualgaisí bhí muintir na Gaeltachta ansásta leo féin, mar bhí baill tofa ar an Údarás agus go díreach mar a bhíonn cleachtadh ag muintir na Gaeltachta ormsa agus oraibhse, bhí cleachtadh acu ar an daoine a chuir siad féin ar Udarás na Gaeltachta agus is maith an rud é sin. Bhí gach rud ag dul ar aghaidh go breá agus taréis bliain nó bliain go leith nó mar sin chualamar ráflaí. Ní chuirimid suim i ráflaí. Daoine atá sa saol poiblí cloiseann siad ráflaí i gcónaí ach mar sin féin chualamar go bhfuair duine éigin deontas agus ba mhaith an rud é fá choinne fostaíochta a chur ar fáil ins an Ghaeltacht agus tamall ina dhiaidh sin chualamar go bhfuair duine éigin eile deontas fá choinne rud éigin a cheannach agus obair a chur ar fáil ins an Ghaeltacht. Ansin taréis tamaill bhí an scéal ag dul i dtreise agus chuir daoine isteach fá choinne deontas den chineál céanna agus go minic ar chúis éigin ní raibh siad le fáil acu agus ó mo thaobh féin de, cé gur thug mé tacaíocht iomlán don Údarás agus gur seo an chéad uair a labhair mé anseo ins an Teach mar gheall ar an Údarás, cé go raibh deis agam é a dhéanamh dhá uair anuraidh choinnigh mé mbhéal dúnta, ach caithfidh mé a rá go raibh na ráflaí ag dul i dtreise agus i dtreise i n-aghaidh an lae go dtí go bhfuilimid ins an áit a bhfuilimid inniu, go bhfuil creidiúint iomlán i measc muintir na hÉireann beagnach caillte ins an Údarás agus níl éinne is mó ins an Teach seo a gcuireann sé sin isteach air ná a chuireann sé ormsa nuair a chaithfidh mé labhairt le mo cháirde agus le daoine eile agus cuireann siad ceist "i n-ainm Dé cad atá ag dul ar aghaidh ins an Ghaeltacht. I n-ainm Dé céard atá ar siúl ag Údarás na Gaeltachta" agus tá an rud seo taréis dul i dtreise. Níl a fhios agamsa cé an méid fírinne atá ann nó cad é an méid fírinne atá taobh thiar de. Ins an am i láthair is beag creidiúint atá fágtha ag Údarás na Gaeltachta agus is mór an trua é sin mar níl sé sin chun maitheas ar bith a dhéanamh don Ghaeltacht agus níl sé ar chumas an Údaráis an obair a dhéanamh a cuireadh ina leith a dhéanamh nuair a bunaíodh iad, is é sin an teanga a chaomhnú agus cúrsaí fostaíochta a chur ar fáil do mhuintir na Gaeltachta.

Seo an áit ar bunaíodh Údarás na Gaeltachta istigh sa Teach seo, an áit a bhfuil croí-lár daonlathais na tíre. An tAire Donncha Ó Gallchóir, le tacaíocht an Tí seo, a bhunaigh Údarás na Gaeltachta. Tá trí duine déag ar an bhord agus bhí sé de dhualgas orthu sin príomhfheidhmeannach a cheapadh agus polasaí a dhéanamh amach, agus seo an áit a bhfuil an fhreagarthacht ón Údarás; an fhreagarthacht deiridh tá sé anseo ins an Dáil, agus caithfidh sé bheith in oifig Aire na Gaeltachta, mar ag deireadh ama air sin atá an fhreagarthacht airgead a chur ar fáil fá choinne an fhorbairt a chur ar aghaidh ins an Ghaeltacht.

Le bliain amháin tá an tAire anseo — Pádraig Ó Tuathail — ag cuartú eolais ón Údarás. D'iarr sé go minic le bliain eolas mar gheall ar an £170,000 seo agus níl sé in ann an t-eolas sin a fháil. Bhí mise ag féachaint ar an teilifís aréir nuair a bhí an tAire agus an Teachta Donncha Ó Gallchóir ansin agus chuir sé ionadh agus alltacht orm. Ní raibh an t-eolas ag an Aire anseo. Ní raibh an t-eolas a bhí á lorg ag an Aire ag cathaoirleach an bhoird. De réir cosúlachta ní raibh an t-eolas ag aon bhall den bhord ach bhí an t-eolas ag an phríomhfheidhmeannach agus ní raibh sé sásta é a thabhairt don bhord ná don Aire a bhfuil freagarthacht air an t-airgead a chur ar fáil. Caithfidh an Rialtas dul amach agus an t-airgead a thabhairt isteach mar cánacha agus é a thabhairt don Údarás ina dhiaidh sin, agus an fear a bhfuil an fhreagarthacht air ní raibh sé sásta ná ní raibh sé in ann an t-eolas sin a fháil cé go raibh sé ag an príomhfheidhmeannach. Is é an t-aon slí go bhféadfadh an tAire é a fháil ná agairt ar an bhord an t-eolas a fháil ón bpríomhfheidhmeannach agus níor éirigh leo sin é sin a dhéanamh ach an oiread. Cé nach raibh an príomhfheidhmeannach sásta an t-eolas a thabhairt don bhord, mar sin féin vóta muiníne a thabhairt dó.

Sílimse go bhfuil difríocht idir na seacht ndaoine atá tofa agus ná sé duine atá ainmnithe. Na daoine atá tofa tá siad tofa go daonlathach. Tá freagarthacht orthu do na daoine a chuir ansin iad. Na daoine atá ainmnithe ag an mbord ón Aire, tá freagarthacht orthu sin freisin agus is é an fhreagarthacht atá orthu sin ná go ndéanfaidh siad cinnte go bhfuil dearcadh agus toil an Aire agus an Rialtais a chuir ansin iad le cur os comhair an bhoird. Sílimse chomh fada agus is féidir liomsa a dhéanamh amach nach raibh siad ag glacadh leis an fhreagarthacht sin, nach raibh dearcadh an Rialtais, nach raibh toil an Rialtais ná toil an Aire á dhéanamh acu. B'fhéidir go raibh cúiseanna acu chuige sin. Daoine iad a bhfuil aithne agam féin orthu; daoine onóracha iad agus caithfidh mé a rá nuair a rinne an tAire an socrú tráthnóna inné go raibh triúr le himeacht ón bhord go dtug sé buíochas dóibh as an tseirbhís a thug siad le ceithre bliana ar an bhord. Tháinig sé go dtí pointe go raibh rogha le déanamh an mbeadh an príomh-fheidhmeannach i gceannas nó an mbeadh an fear seo agus an Rialtas agus an tAire a bhfuil an fhreagarthacht orthu i gceannas. Sílim go raibh foighid ag an Aire le bliain agus i ndeireadh ama gurb éigean dó an beart a rinne sé inné a dhéanamh.

Tá dóchas agamsa go mairfidh Údarás na Gaeltachta. Sílim go bhfuil fadhbanna ar leith ag an nGaeltacht nach bhfuil in aon pháirt eile den tír, fadhbanna a bhainneann le teanga, fadhbanna a bhaineann le cultúr. Táimid go léir ar gach taobh den Teach seo i bhfábhar an Ghaeilge agus an Ghaeltacht a choinneáil slán. Níl a fhios agamsa cé mar atá ag eirí linn. Admhaímid uiling go bhfuil sé andeacair é sin a dhéanamh. B'fhéidir go minic go bhfuil an cath ag dul inár gcoinne, ach mar sin féin sílim go bhfuil géarghá le Údarás nó le bord den chineál sin faoi choinne forbairt agus fostaíocht agus obair a chur ar fáil do mhuintir na Gaeltachta agus sílim go bhfuil an commitment céanna agus an dearcadh céanna ar an taobh seo den Teach agus ag an Rialtas seo agus a bhí ar an taobh eile den Teach nuair a cuireadh Údarás na Gaeltachta ar bun.

Mrs. Geoghegan-Quinn

Ceapaim gur cúis náire go n-éireodh Teachta Dála de aon Pháirtí sa Teach seo agus iad ag caint faoi Údarás na Gaeltachta go háirithe agus iad ag caint go speisialta ar dhaoine a briseadh as a bpost aréir agus duine de na baill sin ina Dháilcheantar féin, an Teachta McGinley agus már bhfiú leis í a ainmniú nó buíochas a ghlacadh léithe thar a ceann féin de bharr an méid oibre atá déanta aice in a Dháilcheantarsa agus ar fud na tíre agus ar Bhord Údarás na Gaeltachta do chúrsaí na Gaeilge agus do cúrsaí na Gaeltachta. Ba cheart go mbeadh náire air.

(Cur isteach.)

Mrs. Geoghegan-Quinn

Tá áthas ormsa duine de na baill a briseadh as a phost aréir a fheiceáil anseo anocht ar an áiléar. Tá an-aiféala orm go mbeadh air a theacht go dtí an Teach seo ar ócáid den tsórt seo, fear a bhfuil a shaol caite aige ag obair ar leas oibrithe ar fud na tíre seo, síos agus soir agus thuas agus theas ag plé le ceardchumannachas sa tír seo. Luaigh an Teachta De Rossa go mba chúis liathróid peile í cúis an Udaráis anois agus deirimse leis an Teachta sin más liathróid í bhí sí breá bán nuair a bhí sí nua. D'imir an Comhrialtas cluiche salach agus salaíodh an liathróid sin dá bharr ach nuair a bhéas an Comhrialtas atá anois againn réidh léi beidh dath breá gorm ar an liathróid sin.

Is údar mór imní dúinn ar fad an chaoi ina láimhseáileadh cúrsaí Údarás na Gaeltachta ó 20 Iúil 1981 i leith. Fógraíodh go hoifigiúil — mar atá fhois agat a Cheann Comhairle — i Mí Eanáir 1982 go raibh fiosrúchán, mar adúirt an fógra Rialtais ag an am, "into the constitution and operation of Údarás na Gaeltachta" le cur ar bun ag an Rialtas, dar le hAire na Gaeltachta ag an am. 'Sé an scéal atá anseo anocht nach raibh aon bhaint aige féin leis an gcinneadh Rialtais sin ach cuimhnimís, a Cheann Comhairle, gur ball den Rialtas a bhí ann ag an am agus dá bharr sin nach bhféadfaí cinneadh den tsórt sin a dhéanamh gan treoir agus comhairle a ghlacadh ón Aire a bhfuil príomh-fhreagracht an Údaráis air. Ní fhéadfaí a shoiléiriú ag an am cén cineál fiosrúcháin a bheadh ann nó cé bheadh ina bhun nó cé na téarmaí tagartha a leagfaí síos dó. Tá fhios againn céard atá ar bun ó shin. Ceist mhór í ceist seo na polaitíochta.

Tá sé ráite go minic sa Teach seo ag Teachta amháin áirithe a labhair anseo anocht, an Teachta Begley, gur Údarás de chuid Fhianna Fáil a bhí san Údarás. Cuimhnímís freisin nach mbeadh Údarás ar bith againn murach Rialtas Fhianna Fáil. Caithimís súil anois ar bhord an Údaráis. Tá 13 bhall ar an mBord sin, nó bhí aréir. Thogh pobal na Gaeltachta mórsheisear. Ní raibh sé de chead ag aon duine de na hiarrthóirí sin ainm a bpáirtí polaitíochta fiú a bheith i ndiaidh a n-ainm ar an bpáipéar toghcháin agus rinne an Teachta Gallagher agus Rialtas Fhianna Fáil é sin d'aonghnó sa gcaoi nach bhféadfadh aon duine a rá go raibh cúrsaí polaitíochta i gceist. Creidimse, a Cheann Comhairle, go láidir go raibh a gcúrsaí gnó déanta ag Bord an Údaráis ar bhonn neamh-pholaitiúil go dtí 1981 — go dtí gur tháinig beirt bhall tofa de chuid Fhine Gael a chuir a gcosa uathu. B'shin athrú bunúsach ar fheidhmiú Bhord an Údaráis.

Tá seachtar ball tofa, mar adúirt mé, beirt acu sin is baill iad de chuid Pháirtí Fhianna Fáil. Ainmníodh seisear ball eile. Breathnaimís anois orthu siúd go bhfeicimíd cé acu gur baill iad de Pháirtí Fhianna Fáil. Duine amháin acu — a cheap an tAire féin — is ball é de Pháirtí Fhine Gael sa deisceart é. Fear eile, ainmníodh é thar cheann an Údaráis. Mise a d'ainmnigh é agus caithfidh mé a rá go fírinneach nár chuir mise aon cheist ar an bhfear uasal sin cén páirtí polaitíochta lenar bhain sé nuair a cheap mé é mar bhall den Bhord.

Tá Rúnaí Roinn na Gaeltachta mar bhall — tá sé i láthair anseo anocht. Ní fhéadfadh aon duine a rá gur fear é an Rúnaí a chaithfeadh am ar bith ag plé le polaitíocht de chineál ar bith. Agus anois tá triúr fágtha, an triúr a sheas ar a bprionsabal, mar atá de bheart acu a dhéanamh, agus a briseadh as a bpost dá bharr. Fear amháin a ainmníodh thar ceann an ITGWU — ní fhéadfadh aon duine a rá gur ball de Pháirtí Fhianna Fáil é an tUasal Ó Néill. Bean as Tír Chonaill nach bhfuil, gurb eol domsa ná do éinne den taobh seo nó den taobh eile den Teach, aon bhaint aici ariamh le Fianna Fáil agus an tríú duine an t-iar-Chathaoirleach, Bainisteoir Chontae Mhaigh Eó, an tUasal Mícheál Ó Máille. Tá mé cinnte go n-aontódh an tAire liom nach dtéann an tUasal Ó Máille i mbun a chuid cúrsaí bainistíochta contae ar bhun pholaitíochta ar bith.

Níl i mbriseadh na ndaoine seo as a bpostanna ach sampla eile de na Boird Stáit ar fad a bhfuil sceannairt déanta orthu ag an gComhrialtas — An Bord Pleanála agus Bord na gCapall, mar shampla.

Sa gceist seo ar fad cé tá cúisithe? Ar dtús tá comhaltaí Bhord an Údaráis cúisithe — tá pobal na Gaeltachta féin cúisithe mar gur thogh siad san mórsheisear don Bhord. Tá príomh-fheidhmeannach na heagraíochta cúisithe, a bhfuil freagracht air polasaí an Bhoird a chur chun cinn taobh istigh den eagraíocht féin. Ar deireadh tá siad siúd ar fad atá ag obair istigh san Údarás i gCeannaras na bhForbacha cúisithe. Go hindíreach a Cheann Comhairle tá tionsclóirí a bhfuil 4,000 curtha ar fáil acu sna Gaeltachtaí cúisithe ag an Aire agus ag an Rialtas.

Cén toradh atá leis an útamáil seo uilig? Tá lagmhisneach orthu siúd atá ag obair san Udarás. Tá baill den Bhord briste as a bpostanna ó aréir. Seans — más fíor na ráflaí — go mbrisfear an príomh-fheidhmeannach ag an gcéad chruinniú eile. Ansin cá stopfaidh an Rialtas: feidhmeannaigh, an mbrisfear iad sin? Cléirigh, tionsclóirí, gnáthoibrithe, fiú amháin? B'fhéidir go bhféadfaí a chreidiúint go dtriailfí Bainisteoir Chontae Maigh Eó a bhriseadh as a phost mar Bhainisteoir Contae. B'fhéidir go dtriailfí muintir na Gaeltachta féin a bhriseadh. Triaileadh é cheana agus ní mholfainn d'aon duine é a thriail arís.

Tá sé suimiúil go bhfuil iar-Aire Gaeltachta amháin nach bhfuil i láthair anocht. D'fhan sé, mar a dúirt an Teachta Gallagher, ceithre bliana agus é ag impí ar an Rialtas Údarás daonlathach Gaeltachta a thabhairt isteach agus dhiúltaigh siad cead a thabhairt dó. Tháinig Fianna Fáil — mar adúirt mé — agus tugadh isteach an tÚdarás taobh istigh de bhliain. Tá fhios agamsa agus tá fhios ag na Teachtaí ar an taobh eile den Teach nach n-aontaíonn an t-iar-Aire sin leis an rud atá ar siúl anseo anocht nó leis an rud a tharla aréir agus gurb shin é an fáth nach bhfuil sé anseo linn anocht. Ar dtús creidimse, agus creidim go gcreideann an tAire freisin é, go bhfuil an t-uafás dochair déanta don chomhoibriú agus don bhá atá idir Údarás na Gaeltachta agus pobal na Gaeltachta go ginearálta ag an gcineál seafóide atá ar siúl le dhá bhliain. Tá dochar déanta aige do na tograí fiúntacha a bhfuil ag éirí leo agus a bhfuil beagnach 4,000 duine fostaithe iontu ar fud na nGaeltachtaí. Níos measa ná sin tá amhras cothaithe in intinn na dtionsclóirí atá faoi láthair i mbun comhráití nó atá ag plé leis an Údarás faoi láthair le tionscail a bhunú sa nGaeltacht amach anseo agus fostaíocht a chur ar fáil do phobal na Gaeltachta.

Tá amhras freisin cothaithe i measc an lucht airgeadais a chuireann ar fáil airgead i bhfoirm iasachtaí ó na bainc mhóra nó aon fhoinse airgeadais eile sa tír seo. Nuair a bhí mise mar Aire Gaeltachta shocraigh an Bord ag an am go ndéanfadh muid athbhreithiniú ar an gcomórtas forbartha pobail. Labhair mise agus príomhfheidhmeannach an Údaráis le tionsclóirí móra na tíre seo agus d'iarr muid orthu ag an am tacú le hUdarás na Gaeltachta; tacú le dul chun cinn pobail bheaga Gaeltachta anseo agus ansiúd ar fud Gaeltachtaí na tíre agus níl dabht ná iad siúd atá ag cur airgid ar fáil don chomórtas forbartha pobail sin, ná gurb iad sin tionsclóirí móra na tíre. An bhfuil an tAire in ann a rá linn anois go leanfaidh siad den chineál céanna airgeadú an chéad bhliain eile nó amach anseo? Ní chreidimse go bhféadfadh aon tionsclóir mór geallúint a thabhairt anois go bhféadfaidh seisean leanúint ar aghaidh nuair atá amhras cothaithe ag an Rialtas ins an eagraíocht lena bhfuil sé ag tabhairt tacú.

Tá sé ráite ag polaiteoirí ar an dtaobh thall den Teach gur cuireadh airgead an Údaráis amú i mblianta a chuaigh thart. Tá sé ráite gur cuireadh airgead isteach i bpoll. Aontódh chuile dhuine gur cuireadh airgead i dtionscail nár éirigh leo ar chúis amháin nó ar chúis eile. Ach creidimse má rinne an tÚdarás tada ó tháinig siad i gcumhacht gur thógadar cinneadh láidir, cinneadh misniúil dhá bhliain go leith ó shin nó mar sin nuair a shocraíodar deireadh a chur leis an gcineál sin tionscal, tionscail nach raibh aon tsúil go deo go n-éireodh leo amach anseo. Is dóigh liom go mba cinneadh misniúil é sin go háirithe do dhaoine a bhí tofa go daonlathach ag pobal Gaeltachta agus cinneadh a chuir isteach go mór orthu féin go pearsanta b'fhéidir ina gceantair féin. Nuair a thógadar cinneadh misniúil den tsórt sin sílimse gur cheart go dtabharfadh an Rialtas seans dóibh dul i mbun gnótha agus má bhí tuilleadh de na tionscail seo ar fud na Gaeltachta anseo is ansúd go mbeadh deis ag an Údarás deileáil ar an gcaoi céanna leis na tionscail siúd.

Ach tá damáiste i bhfad níos measa ná sin déanta ag an gcaint ar fad le dhá bhliain. Tá an damáiste seo déanta, go bhfuil lámha an Údaráis, feidhmeannaigh an Udaráis agus baill bhord an Udaráis ceangailte nach féidir leo aon obair a bhéanamh, nach féidir aon fhorbairt tionsclaíochta a dhéanamh sa Ghaeltacht, go bhfuil an infheistíocht a bheadh ann imithe beagnach ar fad mar nach bhfuil comhlachtaí nó tionsclóirí taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht, taobh amuigh den tír nó fiú amháin sa tír féin sásta airgead a infheistiú san Údarás nó i gcomhlachtaí leis an Údarás mar go gcreideann siad go bhfuil airgead curtha i bpócaí ag feidhmeannaigh taobh istigh den Údarás. Nílimid i bhFianna Fáil ag cur an t-amhrais sin i gcroíthe nó i gcloign na dtionsclóirí ach na páirtithe ar an dtaobh thall, Fine Gael agus an Lucht Oibre, an Comhrialtas.

Creidimse go bhfuil rud i bhfad níos measa fós déanta ag an gcaint seo ar fad. Tá deireadh curtha le postanna nua nó a bheadh le cur ar fáil sna Gaeltachtaí ar fad. Tá amhras cothaithe i gcloigne na bhfear airgid sa tír seo, na bainc, comhlachtaí árachais agus an comhlachtaí a mbeadh airgead acu le cur isteach mar infheistíocht sa Ghaeltacht le postanna a chothú. Creideann chuile dhuine go bhfuil an scamall seo os cionn an Údaráis le dhá bhliain agus go bhfuil bunús de shaghas éigin leis. Cuireann sé iontas agus alltacht orm nach bhfeicim duine ar bith de Pháirtí an Lucht Oibre istigh sa Teach seo anocht. Creidim gur scanall den chéad scoth é, an Páirtí a deireann go bhfuil siad ar thaobh oibrithe na tíre seo, go gcuireann siad postanna ar fáil dóibh agus go seasann siad dóibh agus go labhraíonn siad dóibh sa Teach seo, nár bhfiú le duine amháin acu a bheith istigh anseo anocht le tacaíocht a thabhairt do oibrithe na Gaeltachta a bhfuil a gcuid postanna i mbaol. Labhair an Teachta McGinley faoi vóta muiníne a bheith curtha ag Bord an Údaráis sa phriómhfheidhmeannach, an tUasal Flynn, agus dúirt sé gur cuireadh an vóta muiníne sin ann agus gan an príomh-fheidhmeannach sásta eolas a thabhairt. Chreid mise ón méid a léigh mé sná páipéir agus on méid a chuala mé iar-chathaoirleach an bhoird ag rá ar an raidio tamall ó shin ann gur thug príomhfheidhmeannach an bhoird an t-eolas ar fad dó taobh amuigh cé is moite den bheirt tionsclóir sa Tuaisceart agus gur mhínigh sé go láidir an chúis a bhí aige le nach dtabharfaí ainm na beirte sin. Cén fáth nach bhféadfadh Bord an Údaráis vóta muiníne a chur ann agus é taréis an t-eolas a bhí aige a thabhairt agus a mhíniú cén fáth nach bhféadfadh sé an chuid eile a thabhairt. An n-inseoidh an tAire duinn fáth na moille ar fad sna chúrsaí seo thuas. Caithfidh sé go raibh eolas faighte le go mbeadh sé anois in ann triúr bhall den bhord a bhriseadh as a bpostanna.

An Ceann Comhairle

Níl ach ceithre nóiméad fágtha ag an Teachta anois.

Mrs. Geoghegan-Quinn

Ó bhí mé ag caint anseo anocht feicim go raibh an t-eolas ag an Aire ó Mhí Lúnasa 1982, sin cúig mhí dhéag ó shin. Céard a rinne sé leis an eolas ó shin? Cén fáth nár thóg tú cinneadh go dtí aréir.

Mr. O'Toole

An tUasal Ó Floinn——

Mrs. Geoghegan-Quinn

Tá an fhírinne searbh. Caitheadh an tAire a intinn siar go dtí an uair gur briseadh Údarás RTE, tá roinnt blianta ann ó shin. Dúirt a pháirtí féin, Pháirtí Fhine Gael, sa Fhreasúra ag an am go mba mhór an scanall an rud a bhí ag tarlú agus nach cóir go mbrisfí aon bhord Stáit nó cuid de bhord Stáit go deo arís gan díospóireacht faoi a bheith sa Dáil ar dtús. Cá bhfuil an daonlathas sin anois? Tá sé imithe le fána, cosúil le go leor rudaí eile.

Inseodh an tAire dúinn cé hiad an triúr atá le ceapadh aige anois mar chomhaltaí den bhord. Cá bhfaighidh sé triúr daoine níos ionraice, níos stuama, níos eolasaí ar chúrsaí Gaeltachta ná Micheál Ó Máille, Máire Mhic Niallais agus Maitiú Ó Néill? I bPáirtí Fhine Gaeil b'fhéidir? Rinneadar a gcion do phobal na Gaeltachta agus ní rabhadar sásta lúbadh do bhrú polaitíochta. Fair play dóibh agus nár laga Dia iad. Cuirfear isteach anois triúr puipéid de chuid an Aire, triúr, mar a deirim, b'fhéidir as Pháirtí Fhine Gael. Agus an cheist is mó b'fhéidir atá ag cur as dúinn sna Gaeltachtaí faoi láthair cé a bheas mar phríomhfheidhmeannach nua má éiríonn leis an Aire san méid atá curtha roimhe le dhá bhliain anuas? An bhfuil aon seans go bhfuil fírinne sa ráfla atá sa timpeallacht i mo ceantar agus i go leor ceantair eile ón bhliain 1981 gurb é an tUasal Ó Foighil, comhairleoir chontae de chuid Fhine Gael i nGaillimh Thiar a gheobhas an post?

(Cur isteach.)

Mrs. Geoghegan-Quinn

Glanadh an tAire an t-aer. Baineadh sé a lámha polaitíochta den Údarás mar is iad pobal na Gaeltachta atá thíos len a chuid místuamacht.

Mr. P. Gallagher

I wanted to take a few minutes to intervene in this debate which is not directly involved with Údarás na Gaeltachta at all. It is a debate on a transition in this country from democracy to dictatorship and the Minister, Deputy O'Toole, stands indicated as a result of his actions yesterday. I ask him what guarantee he got from the three members who were not dismissed. I have had and will have respect for those three members until I see what their actions are in the near future. Of the three people who were dismissed Máire Bean Mhic Niallais, who is from my constituency, had absolutely no political affiliations. Mr. Michael O'Malley worked in Donegal for many years and we were wrong to allow him to leave Donegal. Mr. O'Neill was not affiliated to Fianna Fáil, although he was appointed by them, but he works closely with the ITGWU.

At all times when anything to do with the Gaeltacht or institutions of the Gaeltacht are undermined by the public, Ministers and Deputies should defend those institutions in the Gaeltacht, but the Minister of today and particularly his colleague, Deputy Begley, have aided and abetted in ensuring that there would be leakages to the papers that were damaging to the Gaeltacht, and these leakages have no substance.

Board members should be nominated by Ministers and the nominations should be ratified by the Government, but it appears that it is not the Minister or the Government who decide on members of boards. I am ashamed to believe that it is in the Fine Gael offices in Upper Mount Street that the future of boards is decided, and it was pointed out by my colleagues on this side of the House that the Minister was setting a precedent despite the fact that some years ago that party were most critical of Fianna Fáil when that party did not get rid of part of the board of RTE but dismissed them all. The Fraud Squad went into Údarás na Gaeltachta and we have yet to hear if anything dishonest was found then. The House should also know that when the members were voting to appoint Frank Flynn on a full time basis the Secretary of the Department of the Gaeltacht then had full confidence in him. I believe that the Secretary will still have confidence in him. There is absolutely no reason for recommending three other members to the board who will act as puppets. The Minister will have difficulty in finding three people to displace those dismissed as nobody with the same principles as those three would act as puppets for the Minister and Fine Gael. The only people he could possibly find to act in this manner would be people from his own party.

I do not blame the Minister completely. He is being dictated to. For a long time he was a Minister who stood on his own feet, but as a result of his action yesterday he is no longer held in high esteem by me or members of my party or, more so, by the people of the Gaeltacht who had some trust in him up until now.

An Ceann Comhairle

I must call the next speaker.

Mr. P. Gallagher

In conclusion, in future Údarás na Gaeltachta will not be known by that name, but as a tool of an Údarás, or as O'Toole's Údarás, or O'Toole's tool.

Mr. Kenny

This debate has brought to light many startling facts. We are really only seeing the tip of the iceberg. The claims of playing politics made from the far side of the House are nothing short of a sheer disgrace to those who made them. Any Cabinet position carries responsibility with it. If the present Minister is the first Minister of the Gaeltacht to act in accordance with his beliefs and principles and the advice which he is given in sorting out these matters, he is a man to be admired.

The discussions which have taken place here this evening are typical of what has gone on in connection with Údarás na Gaeltachta and Gaeltarra Éireann for many years. Údarás, a semi-State body, have been on a disastrous course since they were set up in 1979. The appointment of the chairman of that board, my own county manager Mr. O'Malley, should not have taken place in the manner in which it did. In fairness to the man, he is county manager of our third largest county. He was given to understand that he would be chairman of a board which would meet approximately twice a month to discuss matters relevant to the Gaeltacht. It turned out, with innuendoes, scares and rumours about this, that and the other——

Mr. D. Gallagher

Where have they come from?

Mr. Kenny

——that the chairman should have been a full-time appointee and the Minister who was, again, from my own constituency, should have known that fact from the beginning. It was unfair on anybody to appoint him on the assumption that it was purely on a part-time basis when it was a position which carried much weight and responsibility and had the national interest at heart at that level. Appointing a person on a purely part-time basis was not doing him justice.

Mr. D. Gallagher

That is no reason to fire him. Is the Deputy saying that he did not do a good job?

Mr. Kenny

The county manager, Mr. O'Malley, had an excellent relationship with the Minister, Deputy O'Toole, when that Minister was a county councillor in County Mayo. I am sure that their personal friendship does not enter into this matter at all.

The appointment of Mr. Flynn as chief executive officer should not have been carried out in the way in which it was. That means no disrespect to Mr. Flynn. He was not the chosen appointee of the then Minister for the Gaeltacht. The carry-on in relation to his appointment left much to be desired also, because there were many votes and many interviews. It would have been far better and would have resulted in far less discord and rancour had that person been appointed by the Local Appointments Commission at the beginning.

Mrs. Geoghegan-Quinn

On a point of order, the present chief executive officer was not my choice at the time, but I accepted the democratic decision of the board of the Údarás.

Mr. D. Gallagher

Hear, hear.

Mr. Kenny

I accept that. It was well known at the time that the person who became the chief executive officer was not the Deputy's favourite for that position.

Mrs. Geoghegan-Quinn

I had to accept that because I accept democracy.

Mr. Kenny

If the Deputy made charges of political interference on this side of the House, it is quite obvious from her own conduct of that matter that she wished another person to be appointed to this position in the first place.

Mrs. Geoghegan-Quinn

I accepted the democratic decision.

Mr. Kenny

That led to a lack of confidence in the chief executive officer from within his own organisation. It is quite obvious that since 1979 stories have been leaked to certain newspapers and various people which are no credit to anybody. If the present Minister has taken the bull by the horns he is doing a good job for the country. His Cabinet responsibility carries financial responsibility with it in the national interest. It is time that some Minister stood up and was prepared to be counted. The Minister has not taken this decision lightly. He has already said that he is proud of the work of the people who have had to be dismissed. It is fair to say that perhaps they stood by their principles and perhaps the other three who voted for the dismissal of the chief executive officer also stood by their principles. The Minister has possibly taken into account that these dismissals might lead to court action on the principles of natural justice. I am sure that he has taken proper and due advice in that regard.

If all this leads to a sorting out of the scandalous carry-on in both Gaeltarra Éireann and Údarás na Gaeltachta for many a long year and sets everything on an even keel——

Mr. D. Gallagher

What carry-on?

Mr. Kenny

——where everybody can understand exactly what went on, then he will be doing a good job for us.

Mrs. Geoghegan-Quinn

What carry-on?

Mr. Flynn

Would the Deputy tell us about it? Go on.

Mr. Kenny

I am telling the Deputy about it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Kenny, without interruption, please.

Mr. D. Gallagher

Tell us about the scandals.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Allow the Deputy to continue, please.

Mr. Kenny

Into Dáil Éireann yesterday in an unsigned letter in the post came scurrilous allegations about Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn and about Deputy Molloy.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Kenny

An unsigned, handwritten document — no names, no addresses.

Mr. Molloy

Is that the basis of the Deputy's case?

Mr. Kenny

That is not the basis of my case and I have not even referred to it. I have not interrupted the Deputy. In his defence, this is a scurrilous document in relation to himself and his colleague, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, both from the same constituency.

Mr. Flynn

Is the Deputy writing letters to himself?

Mr. Kenny

I cannot type, as the Deputy well knows.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Flynn, please.

Mr. Kenny

In relation to the claim of Unionist money being made available for this loan which Údarás na Gaeltachta were not entitled to give, the Minister is perfectly right in wishing to get to the bottom of it and find out where this money came from.

Mr. D. Gallagher

He was told.

Mr. Kenny

As Cabinet Minister he has responsibility to find out all about it. This money might have been robbed from some bank on this side of the Border, been brought across the Border and sent down again. How can we know? The Minister is entitled to find out.

Mr. D. Gallagher

The Deputy should not be following Deputy Begley.

Mr. Kenny

Deputy Gallagher, former Minister for the Gaeltacht, from my own constituency, said on television last night that he could understand the putting up of this money and condone it in the interest of saving jobs. That matter was very badly handled by the chairman of the board and its chief executive officer.

Mr. D. Gallagher

I said that I would not condone embezzlement. I do not want to be misquoted.

Mr. Kenny

I agree with the Deputy that he would not condone embezzlement and I do not doubt that. However, he did say that he could understand the putting up of the money. I am sure the Deputy will agree that if Minister O'Toole had said that while on the Opposition benches his party would have called for his resignation in a very short time. People on that side of the House called for the resignation of the Minister for Justice quite recently when he was doing justice to his office and had the backing of the people for his action in that regard.

The fact that a judicial inquiry has not been called for by Údarás na Gaeltachta themselves or by the board has been clarified by the Minister. When we were on the Opposition side last year, we agreed with Deputy Flynn that a judicial inquiry at that time would lead to a further loss of jobs in the Gaeltacht areas and a further lack of investment in those areas because of all these rumours. We agreed that a judicial inquiry at that point was not necessary. No call for a judicial inquiry has come yet.

Mr. Flynn

The Coalition only agreed because I had the voting strength on the night in question. That was the only reason.

Mr. Kenny

Several members of the board have said that there should be a judicial inquiry and if there is to be one, let that be so.

Mr. Flynn

If the Coalition could have won the vote, they would have had the inquiry, but they did not have the strength.

Mr. McGinley

Deputy Flynn did not have it a few weeks afterwards.

Mr. Kenny

When Deputy Flynn had charge of his Ministry and of Údarás na Gaeltachta he certainly was heard on the matter. There is no point in denying that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Kenny has five minutes.

Mr. Kenny

Actions always speak louder than words, but nothing happened. Job losses occurred in the Gaeltacht and there were further rumours and further leaks and further carry-on, which certainly did nobody any justice.

Mr. Flynn

There was peace in the Gaeltacht when I was there. That is well acknowledged by the people of the Gaeltacht.

Mr. Kenny

If the present Minister sorts all this out he will do a good job for his country and his Ministry. People on the Opposition benches would put down a motion calling for the resignation of the Minister for the Gaeltacht if he were not in a position to produce information which was relevant to his Department. That side of the House would have parliamentary questions down for oral answer asking why he could not produce the documentation — was he Minister or was he not? He has taken this course of action. In a personal sense, he finds it regrettable to have to dismiss from the board his former county manager under whom he served admirably as a county councillor for a long number of years. They had a very good working relationship. I am not acquainted with either of the other two people who have now been dismissed but I am sure the Minister has taken advice in relation to this matter. Those dismissals in the interests of finding out for the public where this money came from, how the company laws were manipulated to favour one company against another are certainly justified.

The Minister's discussions with the chief executive officer in public and in private have not helped the case of the Gaeltacht either from the Fine Gael side or from the Fianna Fáil side, but the Minister is the Minister of the day and he is appointed with Cabinet responsibility. He has the right under section 20 to information and that information must and should be given to him. His actions in this regard have to be backed up from that point of view. If the board have refused to answer the questions, they have recourse through their legal advisers and so on by saying that they gave whatever information was available to them at that time. That is a matter for decision in another forum.

With regard to money being put up by Unionists, who are nameless and are not in a position to come forward, either for security reasons or any other reason, this is something which baffles me. As a person serving at present on the New Ireland Forum I am aware of the Unionist point of view and I understand their interpretation of what is going on down here. It would certainly seem very strange that two private people of the Unionist tradition would come along with this offer of money for a company with specific conditions attached who were not prepared to let their names be known in public. I find that very strange. If the Minister was not in a position to get that information the people opposite would be the very people who would be calling for this resignation time after time. They would say he was not fit to be Minister and was not fit to fulfil his Cabinet responsibilities. From that point of view his action has to be followed through on this.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Kenny

The Minister's action in this is regrettable from a personal point of view. I am sure he finds it a strain to dismiss people from a board but if an inquiry is to be held into this matter I am certain it is only the tip of the iceberg because working officials of Údarás na Gaeltachta have told me that they are ashamed to say in public that they work for the Údarás. Deputy Begley is perfectly correct when he says that the DPP should now issue a clarifying statement as to whether there is something wrong in relation to the investigations carried out by the Fraud Squad in relation to these companies over the last few years. We are all entitled to that information. It will ease the Minister's problem and make it more acceptable to everybody if the air is cleared on that matter. There will be many more stories before this saga is ended. It is regrettable that it happened in the first instance but the Minister is charged by the Government with Cabinet responsibility for the Gaeltacht. He is charged with responsibility to the people of the nation, in particular to the people of the Gaeltacht. His action in finding out this information has to be condoned.

Mr. Molloy

I am grateful to Deputy Begley for confirming much of what I said on the Adjournment last week, but I regret that he very carefully omitted to tell the House how the late Mr. Delaney was inveigled into writing the letter which Deputy Begley referred to. He also omitted to tell the House how that letter came into his possession.

Aire na Gaeltachta (Mr. O'Toole)

Ba mhaith liom a rá i dtosach gur chuir sé díomá agus aiféala orm an chaoí go raibh cainteoirí ón taobh eile den Teach ag plé na ceiste seo. Maidir leis an triúr a briseadh as a bpost aréir, níl tada dá laghad agamsa ina gcoinne. Níor chuir mé míionrachas ina gcoinne, agus ba mhaith liom a rá arís — tá sé ráite agam faoí dhó go poiblí — go raibh aithne agam orthu agus go bfhuil an-obair déanta acu agus ní chuireann sé áthas ar bith ormsa tabhairt faoi rudaí mar sin.

Ceann de na fadhbanna a bhain leis an díospóireacht seo nár thug éinne faoin aidhm bhunúsach. Bhíomar ag caint faoi stair an Údaráis, an chaoi ar bunaíodh an tÚdarás, ach tá bun-phrionsabal i gceist anseo ag baint le hoifig an Aire agus ni dhearna éinne tagairt don dualgas a bhaineann le hAireacht. Phléamar tábhacht bhunú an Údaráis. Bunaíodh é trí Acht i 1979. Deireann alt 20 den Acht go bhfuil sé de cheart ag an Aire, am ar bith, eolas a iarraidh ó bhaill an Údaráis faoi aon rud atá á dhéanamh ag an mbord i leith a gcuid oibre maidir leis an Údarás. Tá sé sin de cheart ag an Aire agus tá sé de dhualgas ar an mBord an t-eolas sin a thabhairt.

Sin í aidhm an Achta. Tá an tAire i gceannas nó níl an tAire i gceannas — tá duine nó daoine eile i gceannas — agus má tá éinne anseo sa Fhreasúra ábalta aon rud a chur i mo leith i dtaobh mo dhearcadh ar an Údarás nó ar an nGaeltacht nó ar mhuintir na Gaeltachta — is duine de bhunú na Gaeltachta mé féin — seasadh sé nó sí anois agus deireadh sé nó sí é.

Mr. Molloy

Cén fáth nach raibh an tAire sásta buaileadh leis an Uasal Ó Floinn agus an Uasal Ó Máille chun an cheist seo a phlé. An bhfuil sé fíor gur dhiúltaigh an tAire casadh leo chun an cheist faoin iasacht a phlé?

Mr. O'Toole

Dúirt mé má bhí éinne a raibh rud ar bith aige nó aici le cur i mo leith maidir le mo dhearcadh ar an Údarás seasamh agus é a rá. Sheas an Teachta Molloy. Bhuail mé le baill den Údarás faoi cheathar. Bhuail mé leis an bpríomhfheidhmeannach trí nó ceithre huaire, chomh fada agus is eol dom. Le trí mhí anuas tá mise ag iarraidh eolais mar Aire faoin Acht. Fuair mé litir ón bpríomhfheidhmeannach, agus ba mhaith liom a rá leis an Teachta Molloy nach dteastaíonn uaim aon raic sa Teach — teastaíonn uaim insint go ciúin fírinne an scéil. Fuair mise litir ón bpríomhfheidhmeannach ag rá lionm, nó ag iarraidh bualadh liom, ionas go n-inseodh sé dom cén fáth nach raibh sé ábalta nó sásta an t-eolas a bhí iarraithe agam agus a raibh sé de cheart agam a fháil a chur ar fáil dom. Tá dhá rud anseo. Tá anbhéim á leagan ar ainmneacha na beirte sin. Tá rud eile freisin. Chuir an príomhfheidhmeannach cuntas bainc ar bun sa Tuaisceart in ainm——

(Cur isteach.)

Mr. O'Toole

Chomh fada agus is eol dom — agus níl mé ró-chinnte faoi seo mar is ceist don Roinn Airgeadais é, níl a fhios agam an bhfuair sé cead nó nach bhfuair — níl sé sásta cóip iomlán den chuntas a chur ar fáil domsa. Mar a dúirt mé cheana, ní chuireann sé seo aon áthas orm——

Mr. Molloy

Ba mhaith liom a iarraidh ar an Aire an bhfuil mo cheist freagraithe aige fós?

Mr. O'Toole

Gabh mo leithscéal. Níl mé ag iarraidh éirigh as. Freagróidh mé chuile cheist a chuirtear orm. Is é an fáth nach mbhuailfidh mé leis an bpríomhfheidhmeannach ná faoin Acht gur leis an bord atá mise ag plé. Tá an bord freagrach domsa. Níl an príomhfheidhmeannach freagrach domsa; tá sé freagrach don bhord. Ní mise a scríobh an tAcht. Go deimhin tá maíomh á dhéanamh ar an taobh eile gurb iadsan údair an Achta agus tá an ceart acu. Ach chomh fada agus a fheicimse, tá lochtaí san Acht seo agus rud amháin a bheas á dhéanamh agamsa — agus tá mé cinnte go mbeidh tacaíocht——

Mr. Molloy

Nach bhfuil sé fíor gurb é Páirtí Fhianna Fáil a d'iarraidh ort bualadh leis an bpríomhfheidhmeannach?

Mr. O'Toole

D'iarr an Bord orm chomh maith bualadh leis an bpríomhfheidhmeannach agus le cathaoirleach an bhoird agus diúltaigh mé bualadh leo——

Mr. Molloy

Sin é. Cén fáth?

Mr. O'Toole

——mar bhí litir foirmeálta oifigiuil agam. Bhí an Teachta ina Aire uair amháin agus tá a fhios aige nuair a scríobhann tú go foirmeálta, oifigiúil, chuig príomhfheidhmeannach atá i mbun boird atá faoi do chúram go bhfuil tábhacht faoi leith ag baint le litir den tsaghas seo agus má tá tú ag iarraidh eolas ar bhun alt den Acht agus go bhfuil an fear seo tar éis litir a scríobh chugat ag diúltaigh an t-eolais sin a thabhairt duit, caithfidh tú a bheith an-aireach——

Mr. Molloy

Nach bhfuil sé fíor go ndúirt an príomhfheidhmeannach go mbeadh sé sásta labhairt leat faoin rud seo ar fad dá mbeadh tú sásta bualadh leis agus leis an Uasal Ó Maille le chéile?

Mr. O'Toole

An rud deiridh chomh fada agus is eol dom—níl an dáta agam— dúirt sé liom go mba mhaith leis bualadh liom le míniú dom cén fáth nach raibh ar a chumas an t-eolas a chur ar fáil.

Mr. Molloy

Cén fáth nár bhuail an tAire leis?

Mr. O'Toole

Tá sé de chúram agus de dhualgas ormsa——

(Cur isteach.)

Mr. O'Toole

——Níor chuir mise isteach ar éinne. An bhfuil freagra tugtha agam don Teachta?

Mr. Molloy

Níl an freagra a thug an tAire reasúnta.

Mr. O'Toole

Tá an dá thaobh leis an scéal. Má cheapann tusa nach bhfuil an freagra reasúnta, b'fhéidir go gceapaimse go bhfuil sé reasúnta. Chomh fada is a bhaineann liomsa——

Mr. Flynn

An bhfuil an t-Aire sásta freagra a thabhairt?

(Cur isteach.)

Mr. O'Toole

Tá mise sásta aon cheist a fhreagairt ach ba mhaith liom a rá nach Tráth na gCeist é seo.

Mr. Flynn

Ar tháinig an iar-chathaoirleach ar ais chuig an Aire agus dúirt sé go raibh comhréiteach aige? An raibh an tAire sásta seasamh leis an comhréiteach sin? Cad é an comhréiteach a bhí ann?

Mr. O'Toole

Freagróidh mé an cheist sin. Níor tháinig an t-iar-chathaoirleach ar ais chugam le comhréiteach. Cuireadh scéal chugam ag rá go raibh sé féin agus na comhaltaí sásta tacaíocht a thabhairt don Aire as seo amach agus treoireacha daingne a chur os comhair an príomhfheidhmeannaigh agus go mbeadh air na treoireacha sin a chomhlíonadh. Ar an chéad fhéachaint cheap mise go raibh sé seo réasúnach, sásúil agus in-ghlactha. Ach níor réitigh sé sin an fhadhb bhunúsach a bhí agam—go raibh amhras ormsa faoi rudaí a thárla san aimsir chaite, go raibh eolas iarraithe agam faoi shonraí faoi leith agus nach raibh an bord ábalta ná an príomhfheidhmeannach sásta na sonraí sin a chur ar fáil. Cibé rud a tharlódh as seo——

(Cur isteach.)

Mr. O'Toole

Tá réasún leis.

Mr. Molloy

Níl aon réasún leis.

Mr. O'Toole

Chomh fada is a bhaineann liomsa tá mé sásta seasamh anseo anocht agus a rá nár bhris mé éinne go dtí go raibh orm daoine a bhriseadh. Bhris mé iad ar bhun dleathach go raibh comhairle faighte agam, go bhfuil sé bunaithe ar alt 20 den Acht. Ba mhaith liom a rá faoin méid a dúirt an Teachta Ó Floinn, dúirt sé trí rud nach raibh ceart. Dúirt sé go raibh an leachtaitheoir stát as nach raibh aon fhreagracht ag an Stát as £170,000.

Mr. Flynn

Airgid Stáit.

Mr. O'Toole

Níl sé sin fíor agus dúirt an leachtaitheoir, nuair a chonaic sé é sin foilsithe ar pháipéar — nár aontaigh sé leis. Dúirt an Teachta Ó Floinn go raibh an C&AG sásta. Níl sé, mar níl a intinn déanta suas aige; níl an t-eolas faighte aige. Dúirt an Teachta Molloy go raibh an DPP sásta. B'fhéidir go bhfuil doras isteach ag oifig an DPP——

(Cur isteach.)

Mr. O'Toole

Cá bhfios duitse? Níl a fhios agamsa faoi.

(Cur isteach.)

Mr. O'Toole

Is institiúd neamhspleách é an DPP agus ba mhaith liom a rá chomh maith nach gcuirimse isteach — d'iarr mé cén uair a bheadh an t-eolas seo ar fáil. Cuireadh an milleán orm go poiblí go raibh a fhios agam agus go raibh mé ag iarraidh clúdach a choinneáil air. Níl a fhios agam. An nglacann an Teachta leis sin?

Mr. Molloy

An nglacann an tAire go bhfuil sé in am don DPP an t-eolas a chur ar fáil?

Mr. O'Toole

Glacaim le sin go hiomlán. Ná cuir an milleán ormsa. Níl a fhios agamsa.

(Cur isteach.)

Mr. O'Toole

Má tá an DPP mall nó rud éigin, ná cuir an milleán ormsa. God knows I have been blamed for enough. I am not responsible for the DPP's office.

(Cur isteach.)

Mr. O'Toole

Mar fhocal scoir ba mhaith liom a rá——

Mr. P. Gallagher

An féidir liom ceist a chur?

An Ceann Comhairle

Ní bheidh aon cheist nó ní bheidh aon fhreagra. Sin a bhfuil. Tá an t-am caite.

(Cur isteach.)

Mr. O'Toole

Cuirfidh mé in iúl do na Teachtaí nuair a bheas m'intinn déanta suas agam cé tá le ceapadh. Ba mhaith liom a rá mar fhocal scoir——

(Cur isteach.)

Mr. O'Toole

Let me tell Deputy Gallagher I do not deal in scabs.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Molloy

The Minister did not have the decency to face the man himself. He stands accused of acting in an unprincipled and unjust way.

Mr. P. Gallagher

The Minister asked for questions but he did not give any answers.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. O'Toole

I am in charge and I will stay in charge.

Mr. Molloy

The Minister was determined to get rid of the man from the first day he was in office.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. O'Toole

The Deputy tried to get rid of Mr. Tully but he did not get very far.

Mr. Molloy

The Minister will have to explain his decision to the people in the west of Ireland.