Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 Nov 1984

Vol. 354 No. 6

Final Report of the National Youth Policy Committee: Motion (Resumed)

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That Dáil Éireann takes note of the Final Report of the National Youth Policy Committee which was laid before the House on 10th October, 1984."

—(Minister of State at the Department of Labour)

Minister of State at the Department of Labour (Mr. G. Birmingham)

I had been talking in terms of the comprehensive youth service proposed by the Costello report, explaining that that encompasses two aspects, youth work service and the area of special services. It is submitted by the report that this service would be provided by local youth service committees, that those committees would be representative of voluntary and statutory agencies and that the service would be comprehensive in two ways. First, it would be available to all young people throughout the State and, secondly, comprehensive in the sense that it would embrace a full range of services as required by young people from time to time, or from place to place.

Much earlier in my contribution, I referred to the philosophy and principles which the report urges should inform a new service. All the members of the committee were deeply impressed, I understand, by the dedication and selfless contribution made by the many voluntary youth organisations and, indeed, their leadership. I want to take this opportunity of endorsing that and adding my tribute to the work of the voluntary youth organisations, singling out for mention their co-ordinating body, the National Youth Council.

The report endorses what has been the policy of this Government and what I take to be common policy of the parties in this House, which is that the future development of youth services should be firmly based on promotion and development of voluntary and community involvement in the delivery of services. Having enunciated that philosophy, the report goes on to outline how that voluntary effort can be linked into the role of different statutory agencies. I very much look forward to Deputies' views on how this is to be achieved. It seems that the task of building a national youth service is one area where partisan attitudes are to be and can be avoided.

I am listening with an open mind, as I have already promised, to all the views which will be expressed on this issue, so that when the Government come to approve of the shape of this policy statement, it will reflect what I believe to be the aspirations of everybody, which is the attainment, to the maximum extent possible, of the welfare and development of all our young people.

Can I say in conclusion that the report itself concludes with an acknowledgment that the recommendations which it put forward and those which are accepted will not be implemented overnight, but will fall to be implemented in stages. I believe that a planned, phased approach is necessary, for two reasons, first, because resources are limited, but if that were never the case, I would still think it desirable because that means that we shall have an opportunity to keep on learning, so that we can review our progress and build on our strength and eliminate our weaknesses.

I suggest to the House that any form of blanket, rigid prescription for the whole country to be imposed at once from Mespil Road would be a quite inappropriate course, not one that should commend itself to any Member of the House, or indeed any of the groups particularly interested. We require a steady, constructive advance based on a clear national youth policy that responds constructively and positively to the Costello report.

At this stage the immediate task must be to communicate that this is a highly important report and to do so as effectively as possible. This debate taking place today has an important role to play. I mention also, for the information of the House, that the National Youth Policy Committee favoured the publication of a popular version of the report, taking the view that the number of people who would make their way through the almost 300 pages of this report would necessarily be limited. There is a lot of merit in that view, so I am happy to say that my Department have arranged, in conjunction with the National Youth Council and with the publication Young Citizen for a popularised version of the report and 20,000 copies to be made available with a view to distribution in the 800 schools throughout the country and also to youth clubs. I think that will prove of interest to the people to whom this report is primarily addressed and certainly we shall be interested to see the response of young people to this very essential report.

I look forward very much to the views which will emerge during the course of this debate. There is a great deal of work to be done and time is not on our side. However, we must all start and move along the road.

Mr. F. Fahey

This document is certainly welcome in that it identifies all the problems affecting our young people. It is the most comprehensive document yet produced. It contains much food for thought for everybody involved in youth work, but particularly for politicians who are charged with the responsibility of providing for the welfare of young people.

At the outset, I want to congratulate the Minister of State on his personal commitment to youth affairs. He has certainly done his best to bring about many urgent initiatives and developments in so many spheres affecting young people. Unfortunately, commitment begins and ends with the Minister. It is in order to be of assistance to him in what so far has been a pretty fruitless exercise on his part that it is incumbent on me to put this report in context in terms of its necessity and implementation. I do not have very many complaints about the contents of the report but was the priority to have yet another report or was it to provide action in so many areas which have already been clearly defined? The report was commissioned nearly 12 months after the Government came into office in September 1983. It was launched with the short report, Shaping the Future. I could not help but feel at the time that it was a holding exercise after 12 months of total Government inaction on youth affairs and would provide a breathing space for another 12 months of inaction while the committee was sitting. I have not yet been convinced that I was wrong.

This is the third major report on youth policy which we have received in the past number of years. It follows policy for youth and sport by Deputy Bruton in 1977 and the O'Sullivan report in 1980, which was commissioned by Deputy Tunney. It contains many of the same proposals and much of the content of the O'Sullivan report. The O'Sullivan report concentrated mainly on mainline youth services. Would it not have been more appropriate for the Government, who are supposedly committed to young people, to build on the work started by Deputy Tunney and continue with the implementation of the proposals outlined in that report rather than set about producing what amounts to a replica of that report?

It is deeply disappointing, after listening to the speech made by the Minister of State, that we do not yet have a Government policy on youth affairs. My understanding was that the report of this committee would put forward various options to the Government. I expected that the Minister of State would outline the Government's policy on youth affairs in the House today. It is deeply disappointing to me, youth organisations and young people that this debate will pass by without knowing what the Government's policy is regarding young people. It is a far cry from the commitment made by the Fine Gael Party prior to the 1981 general election when they promised a policy on youth affairs. We will leave this debate knowing as much as we did when we started it.

There is much dissatisfaction with the structure of youth affairs at present. The change from the Department of Education to the Department of Labour was a retrograde step and I urge that it be moved back to the Department of Education and that proposals be made on the duplication that exists in so many areas at present. That is a prerequisite to effective action on youth affairs.

The report states that it found disappointing the attitude of antipathy to politicians disclosed in the survey. From what I have said about all those reports is it any wonder that young people feel antipathy towards politicians? The area of youth affairs has been the greatest talking shop for the past few years. The production of this report raises that talking shop to a new status. As I have said, the contents of the report are good but they are only good if many of the proposals are implemented. The Government can only justify their decision to commission this report if they implement what is in it. There is no indication of what will be implemented. The only hint we got from the Minister of State was in relation to travelling people when he said it must be considered. If we have nothing more definite at this stage about the endless list of problems facing young people, frustration and antipathy will continue.

I accept that the Minister of State is anxious to implement most of the proposals but they are clearly way down the list of priorities in the minds of his Government colleagues, particularly in the minds of the two people primarily responsible — the Taoiseach and Minister for Finance. This is borne out by the paltry provision made in the national plan of an extra £1.5 million over three years. If we had £1.5 million extra for this year there might be some reason for the Minister to feel happy. This, together with an increase of 3 per cent in the Estimate for existing youth services, means in effect that there will be a decrease in real terms of up to 8 per cent in the provision for mainline youth services in the current years. It shows one thing clearly: this Government are long on reports, promises, discussions and philosophy but short on commitment to positive action.

As regards the provision for sporting bodies, there is a 9 per cent decrease in the provision for sporting organisations. That is a far cry from the pious platitudes we heard from Deputy Creed following the Olympics when he spoke about the Government's commitment to providing extra finance for sport so that Irish sportsmen could hold their own with the rest of the world. This reports says all the right things but it does nothing. It lacks body. Many young people are looking for something to hang on to. That something is not in this report.

It identifies the greatest affliction on young peope, which is unemployment, but choses to ignore the subject. Approximately 67,000 young people or 30 per cent of the total number on the live register are unemployed. We can provide all the special services we like but until we come to grips with this problem we will not go anywhere. This report speaks of a commitment to reduce the present social and economic inequalities. It states that the major worry which emerged from the survey was the possibility of unemployment. It quotes young people as getting impatient and wanting corrective action. There is now a striking gap in the young population between the haves and the have nots. This gap is widening and there is nothing in the report to arrest that trend. We have yet to receive one proposal from the Government in two years which would arrest that trend or provide positive action to create jobs particularly for deprived and disaffected youth.

I will not deal with how those jobs should be created at this stage. I refer the House to the Official Report for 8 February 1984 where I dealt at length with the question of youth employment and put forward a number of proposals which I am satisfied would produce thousands of jobs in 1985 if they were implemented. I shall just refer to two specific proposals on job creation. The first is the establishment of community resource centres which I shall deal with under the heading of mainline youth services. The second is a youth lobby on employment. Everyone is dabbling in the youth employment area except those who know most about it — youth organisations and young people.

We have seen various lobby groups in operation in recent years and how effective they can be, but we have not seen any youth lobby on employment. There is a necessity not alone for a lobby but for a strong input into employment policy. Many worthwhile ideas and proposals could be put forward and I wish to put forward one such idea. An incentive could be offered to a two-parent working family in return for one parent giving up his or her job with a view to creating a job for a young person. It may be attractive to many married couples to be offered a gratuity if one partner would give up work not more than three years after marriage and if they received an improved tax allowance for a further three years. Such a proposal could create many opportunities for young people and give an added incentive to older people to retire. Such ideas as that are worth consideration. We all know of two-parent families where the husband is working in a good, secure job and the wife is also holding down a professional position. Those who immediately come to mind would be in the nursing and teaching professions. I am not suggesting that we would in any way put pressure on anybody to get out of work but we could provide them with a little incentive that would make it worth their while to get out and create jobs for those people who are walking around, many of them qualified in the professions I have mentioned.

I turn now to the vital area of youth services. The report's proposal that we have a comprehensive youth service is something to which I give total support. The commitment and mainstay of a proper youth service should be to complement amateurism with an input of professionalism. It is my priority that not alone should we preserve and nurture volunteerism but we should develop it to its full potential. Implicit in that is the support of fulltime professionals providing motivation, training and expertise to maximise the voluntary effort. The many urgent responses contained in this report may cloud the fact that the first priority, with the exception of special services, must be to put existing mainline youth services on a solid and permanent foundation. To that degree the present situation where full time youth workers attached to voluntary organisations are funded by Government grants and are below subsistence level is totally unacceptable and this situation is exacerbated further by the cuts in real terms of 7 to 8 per cent. I ask the Minister as a matter of urgency to provide 100 per cent funding for all full time employees in the youth services and to provide a proper structure on a par with Civil Service terms of employment. In addition I ask him to appoint extra youth development officers, who are needed in areas around the country where such people have not already been appointed. It seems totally unfair that we could have taken a decision to appoint a number of them in parts of the country and leave other parts completely without assistance.

I compliment the people involved in the youth organisations on their dedicated and committed work rate to achieve their objectives. They are a fine example of the best in Irish youth. However, I urge all organisations to come back under the one umbrella of the National Youth Council of Ireland while still having the ability to retain their independent identity. I recognise that this will involve negotiation and discussion, but I am quite satisfied that it would be only as a result of all youth organisations speaking with the one voice that they can be most effective.

I would like to express my appreciation and that of my party of the work of the thousands of volunteers around the country referred to in the report as the selfless dedication, concern and experience of the people involved in the youth service. On organisational structures at both national and local level there is a need for further discussion in order to establish the best organisational structure. My priority would be that voluntary organisations would assume the most important role in local organisational structures, but those structures would be based on the statutory agencies which are in existence at present. Setting up another administrative structure would be duplication and a wastage of scarce resources.

I referred earlier to a proposal to set up community youth resource centres based on second level school catchment areas. By that I mean county towns with two or three second level schools which have defined catchment areas. This proposal is at present being considered by Fianna Fáil. Such a structure has a great deal of merit in that it would make full use of existing community resources to provide a comprehensive youth service in each locality. It would have at its core the voluntary organisations already involved in youth work, but it would also enable them to expand their role further in social education particularly in community based job training which at present is non-existent. The report identifies unemployed young people as being the least well educated and, therefore, having the fewest coping skills. Statistics in the Youth Employment Agency guarantee scheme bear out this fact.

The number of unemployed young people who are becoming long term unemployed is leading to a growing scrap heap in every local community. An absolute priority must be to bring this to an end. We can no longer afford to talk any further about this matter, we must now do something. Finance should be provided immediately to the voluntary organisations and local communities to provide resource centres. Such centres can draw on the reservoir of skills and talents in each local community. Management should be from the community, and youth organisations should identify job opportunities in the community, adapt training courses to meet these opportunities, select young people with whom they deal themselves for inclusion on the courses, ensure that the courses are suited to their needs and hire the necessary training personnel, who would be provided by AnCO and other agencies already involved. Many of the present training centres are skill-centred places, whereas community youth resource centres would be people-centred places. Such a structure would give youth training agencies such as AnCO the other major ingredient that is lacking at present — a community base. A strong voluntary input would reduce the cost of such centres to a minimum. Accommodation could be readily acquired by local people in every town and district at present at minimum cost because of the abundance of vacant accommodation now available.

Existing assets, both human and physical, must be utilised to the full to the benefit of the youth service in each local community. The status of youth work must be raised to a new level. Expenditure must be seen as a good return on investment. While today we demand extra resources, I am aware that there is a limit to the amount of finance that can be provided. To this degree present expenditure on young people in many areas should produce much better results, especially in education and training. Much of the money being spent at present could be expended much more effectively and bear better results. A reallocation of resources along the lines I am suggesting would lead to more money being available where it should be available: in the localities where voluntary people would provide much of the initiative and employment along with the voluntary organisations at present in operation.

Present expenditure on young people in education is yielding poor results. To that degree it should be our policy to being about radical changes in our education system so as to make education for living the priority. It is true to say that our education system is probably the greatest draw back to our young people. It is a system for points and university places but ignores the reality of living in Ireland in 1984. It ignores the problems young people face when they leave school. It does not prepare them very well for life. There must be a radical change in this respect. Youth services must be an extension of education. They must complement each other. The physical assets such as schools and school buses should be made available for youth services.

Raising the status of youth work will attract many volunteers but we need to redefine the responsibilities of many people who are dealing with young people but not youth work. Fianna Fáil are discussing this topic and our proposals, which will be among the most imaginative ever put forward, will be ready when we are required to implement them.

Mr. G. Birmingham

The Deputy will have plenty of time to wait.

Mr. F. Fahey

I am referring to human resources and our proposals seek to put their potential into context. If every primary and post primary teacher — there are 38,000 of them — and every member of the Garda Síochána — there are 11,000 — who supposedly deal with young people gave one hour each week to youth work than a total of 49,000 hours per week, the equivalent of 1,200 fulltime youth workers working 40 hours each week, would be devoted to youth work. That is the type of human resource we have failed to tap so far. It involves discussions with those people and many others in the community. They must accept that they have a responsibility in this regard.

I fail to understand how in my town, Gort, which is typical of so many around the country, we have between 60 and 70 teachers and 15 or 20 gardaí who work throughout the week without any reference to youth work as it is now defined. I cannot understand why we have not made changes to ensure that part of their work extends from the classroom. I cannot understand why part of the work of the Garda in regard to crime is not of a preventive nature rather than trying to catch the criminal when he has committed a crime. We must do everything to get our people involved in the preventive area, which youth work is. The problem is that our people have never been asked. With proper inducements many people will get involved. From my experience people want to assist young people. All types of physical resources in local communities are under-utilised. All that is required is to put together a framework to tap this vast resource. Perhaps International Youth Year is an appropriate time to start floating such ideas. I hope that as part of the proceedings of that year a number of imaginative proposals will be put forward for examination. It is disappointing that so far there has not been any worth while indication of what International Youth Year will mean for young people, although 1985 is only a month away. That points to a lack of commitment by the Government to our young people.

It is fine to put the logo of International Youth Year on the cover of the report but that will not mean much unless it is backed up by proper action.

Before I deal with special services, ba mhaith liom cúpla focal a rá faoin brón atá orm toisc nach bhfuil mórán suime sa tuarascáil i dtaobh na Gaeilge. Sílim gurb í an t-aon caoí gur féidir linne an teanga, agus go háirithe an teanga labhartha, a chur chun cinn agus na daoine óga a spreagadh chun í a labhairt agus a bheith bródúil aisti. The Irish language can be saved only if we get young people to be proud of the fact that they can speak Irish. It is sad for me to relate that, although I was a fluent Irish speaker some years ago, now, due to lack of practice, it is almost gone. Every effort should be made to promote the language among young people. In our youth policy we must give Irish every possible chance of not alone surviving but of being developed.

In the area of special services the report is positive and opens up an area which up to now has not been explored. I welcome the new input into the question of youth policy. That area was not dealt with to any significant degree in previous reports. For that reason it is worthwhile having in one document a resumé of the problems that affect young people and must be tackled through special services. One problem I should like to refer to is school attendance. It has been confirmed to me by people involved in education in Dublin that the final years of compulsory schooling sow the seeds of a disaffected lifestyle for many young people. I was shocked to hear some of the stories of teachers, career guidance teachers and school attendance officers about the problem in Dublin. I consider it ludicrous that on one side of a street in Ballymun the school attendance officer was doing a reasonably good job but on the other side of the street nobody was operating. The Garda try to deal with this problem but they do not have the resources. The problem of truancy, of opting out of school in those final years, must be tackled immediately. It can be solved by preventive action. We will have to spend millions of pounds in Dublin undoing the damage those young people are doing to themselves and the community because of the seeds sown in those final years at school. The Minister should put to the Ministers involved the priority required to solve this problem.

The problem cannot be dealt with by the appointment of school attendance officers alone. Young people in city schools who have a problem should be identified and the type of flexibility required to look after their needs applied. As far as they are concerned, going to school at 9 a.m. and having to sit there until 4 p.m. is ridiculous. The sooner we realise that the better. Their needs must be catered for. Traditional schooling as we know it must be ended. In the term after Christmas we must take action in this area. Career guidance teachers in Dublin know what must be done and the Minister should consult with them. Huge resources are not needed. Department of Education officials must take their heads out of the sand and tackle the problems of those young people.

On the question of homeless youth, my experience since I became spokesman in this area has shocked me. This is the area closest to my heart. I have seen the situation some of these young people find themselves in. I will quote from the annual report of Hope from Eddie, aged 18.

Sleeping out is very lonely. You find a place to sleep during the day and night — you sleep anywhere.

You lose a lot of friends, they don't want to know you. People out on skip get very dirty and unhealthy and eat anything. They have to rob to survive. They don't care for anybody — it can affect them for life. They turn to wine and go to places like St. Vincent's Day Centre and get a cup of tea and two sandwiches for 10p. They hang out in these places. They are like a different race of people.

Hope is the only voluntary body I am aware of which provides assistance for those young people who number definitely 200 and possibly many more. Hope have this to say:

We have not to-date received an allocation from this year's "budget allocation to voluntary organisations" despite six weeks of representation to the Departments of Social Welfare and Finance, the Minister for Health and Social Welfare, and the Junior Minister for Youth Affairs...

We need an immediate grant of £20,000 to continue in existence....

This is the only service provided in the 26 Counties.

... we would welcome any support encouragement or resources which you can give us.

Is there anything so shocking? What about the baloney we have heard from people like Garret FitzGerald, Nuala Fennell, Barry Desmond and all the others about a just society?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Taoiseach and the Ministers.

Mr. F. Fahey

Sorry, the Taoiseach and the Ministers. What is this Government's priority if it is not to look after the most deprived section of our community? Where is the evidence of action? I at least expected to hear that part of this year's £500,000 would be spent in this area. Why is the Minister keeping this money under the bed? Why does he not give it to these people who have been making representations for six weeks?

Our party leader, Deputy Haughey, has established a task force — Deputy O'Hanlon, Deputy B. Ahern, Deputy O'Rourke and myself — to examine this problem with a view to immediate action being taken as soon as we return to Government after the next election.

Handicapped youth is dealt with in this report. There is a great deal we can all do to become aware of the problem of handicapped youth. This report will have been worthwhile if it does nothing else but get across to young people who are physically and mentally well off that there are a large number among us who are mentally or physically handicapped. If we could create such an awareness we will have got off to a very good start in bringing assistance to handicapped youth.

We must deal with the problem of young travellers as soon as possible. I am saddened by the Government's approach to this problem. The Minister mentioned the report on the travelling people in July 1983. My view is that that report came about following disturbances in Tallaght and the Government wanted to be doing something. What was in that report was merely a rewrite of the report on the travelling people which was written by the committee set up for that purpose. There had been no action before that report and there is little evidence of any action since. There is no point in mouthing pious platitudes about young travellers unless we are prepared to provide resources to improve their lot.

I want to mention young people who get involved in crime and in trouble with the law. Some of the existing services operated by the Department of Justice are very worthwhile. Those services would be expanded under the community resource central programme I have just outlined. I am shocked that we still feel it necessary to put young people in prison for three, four or five months. I am convinced that no young person put in prison will benefit from that experience. Instead of taking that road, I would like to see us redouble our efforts on crime prevention and when these people get into trouble we should give the special assistance outlined in this report to all of them.

On the question of substance abuse, particularly drug abuse which is dealt with very adequately in this report, it seems nonsensical that we are trying to tackle this problem when drugs are freely available on our streets. I urge the Minister to speak to some of his colleagues who even last week in this House refused to do anything about the importation position.

It is ludicrous that in a port like Galway there are no facilities for examining goods coming into the port unless the customs people get a tip off or the people bringing in the goods go to customs people and declare them. It is ridiculous that we do not give our customs officers the powers to try to stop the importation of illicit drugs.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I assume the Deputy is only making a passing reference and that he is not staying with this subject.

Mr. F. Fahey

Yes. It is very difficult to deal with the problem of substance abuse when drugs are freely available throughout the country.

I want to assure the House that as far as Fianna Fáil are concerned there will be no more reports on youth affairs. When we return to Government there will be action. I will be only too glad to use this and the other two reports to implement a proper youth service and to bring about the kind of action we require. We will set out priorities, and cost them. In the process we will implement those priorities providing an ongoing, improving service for youth.

I thought we would hear a number of proposals indicating what the Minister was going to do. I was going to remind him to tell us what he is not going to do, because I anticipated that most of the recommendations in this report would not be carried out. It is a serious disappointment to me, and I am sure it will be to the youth organisations and young people too, that we still do not know what the Government's intentions are. As far as we are concerned, the problems will be solved daily, weekly and monthly. We will have an ongoing review of our performance. Unlike the Government, I will give a commitment to young people and youth organisations. We will tell them what we are in a position to do and for the remainder of the Government's term in office, I ask the Minister to adopt the same approach.

Mr. Allen

I have heard two excellent contributions and both speakers demonstrated a vast knowledge of youth problems. However, the last speaker spoiled his otherwise excellent contribution by using the problems of youth for political purposes which did his otherwise excellent contribution an injustice. I was glad to hear him say that if his party gets into power they will take some action in this area because, during the last two years of the Fianna Fáil administration, there were very few advances in youth affairs. However, I will leave party politics out of my limited contribution.

The national youth policy final report is the first comprehensive report on youth problems ever published in Europe. We have two reports, the Thompson report from the British Government, which is very limited, and the Schwartz report from the French Government which dealt basically with youth unemployment.

Our report is wide-ranging and will be used for reference by many of our colleagues in Europe. I should like to pay tribute to the people who sat on the committee and who brought in their report on time — within one year. The Government made it clear in Building on Reality that, on receipt of the report from the national youth policy committee, there will be a Government policy report within a matter of months. The Minister referred to that again today and said that there will be a policy document and action from the Government in 1985.

The Minister said that time is not on our side. I echo that by saying that time is running out for any Government. The Government, in their decision to publish a youth policy, recognise through a number of policy statements the needs of young people and that urgent action must be taken to deal with the problems.

The Government also recognise that young people today are in a tragic situation because of the obvious problems of unemployment and deprivation, especially in our cities. That has caused many young people to become alienated from society and from our democratic process. The Minister referred to the lack of respect which young people have for Government Ministers, politicians and people who are running the democratic institutions of State. Therefore, any Government policy must set out to get all our young people involved in the democratic process so that the institutions of State are respected by them. That is a major challenge. We must convince our young people that we are sincere and, to do that, we must reduce the ever widening gap between young people who have quite a lot and those who have nothing. The gap between the haves and the have nots in Irish society is, unfortunately growing daily.

Deprivation and poverty is rife in our city and by deprivation I do not mean what a young person has in his pocket or on his back, I am talking about the deprivation of even being unable to utilise the services available from the State. The last two administrations recognised this problem and have set out to eliminate it. Steps were taken in recent times to improve education in deprived areas. Perhaps we are not doing all that we could but at least the problem has been recognised and steps have been taken in the primary school area, which is where the problems begin. It is no use talking about deprivation in third level education unless we change the attitudes that prevail in the deprived areas towards the educational system.

Section 4 sets out policies to deal with disavantaged youth and I welcome its proposals. I also welcome the suggestion that more programmes should be set up for disadvantaged young persons such as the youth encounter project and the neighbourhood youth project which are operating to a limited degree. These projects are most impressive and go to the roots of the existing problems. I have first-hand knowledge of one in my area which only opened last Friday. It took a long time to put into operation but it is a welcome asset and will help to solve the problems which exist in that area. It identifies the special needs of young people and sets about tackling them. I was surprised to hear Deputy Fahey referring to the non-involvement of the Garda in his area because in Cork——

Mr. F. Fahey

I did not say that.

Mr. Allen

I am sorry if I misinterpreted the Deputy but I thought he said that the Garda were not involved in youth affairs.

Mr. F. Fahey

I mentioned the number of Garda who were involved.

Mr. Allen

The Garda recognise the basic problems of youth and are getting involved in areas where these problems can be tackled. The evidence is in the project which has opened in a neighbourhood in Cork recently where the Garda, the Southern Health Board, the VEC and Ógra Corcaigh are doing excellent work and have combined their resources and experience to get this project off the ground. I do not want to be negative in dealing with the symptoms of the problems but I was asked to comment recently on a spate of vandalism in Cork and how the problem should be tackled. I advanced the view that the breakdown in family life is one of the major problems which must be looked at. The problems that young people face in the transition from youth to adulthood are not recognised in many homes at present. Lack of parental control and advice must be regretted. I am glad that section 5 of the report addresses itself to this problem and I welcome its sentiments. It also recognises the need to co-ordinate the various educational and training services which are available at present.

As a member of the Committee on Public Expenditure, I looked at the problems of overlapping and the frustrations caused by the young unemployed because of this overlap. We recognised there were areas where improvements could be made. I am asking the Minister to look at that matter because the overlap and the disjointed efforts at times of all the agencies is leading to much frustration for young people.

Looking ahead there must be an autonomous national body dealing with youth affairs linked to regional groups who, in turn, would be linked to existing statutory bodies such as the VECs, and experience in Cork in recent years can support what I am saying. To ensure the continuing development of an even more comprehensive youth service it is necessary that a statutory duty be imposed on a local statutory body to fund the services required. In view of the recommendation that the youth affairs section be transferred back to the Department of Education — a recommendation I would go along with — I suggest that this local statutory agency should be the VEC. In view of their history of youth work involvement, the flexibility of their structures and their local control, the VECs are the appropriate statutory body to support and develop youth work services at local level. I have first-hand evidence of that in my own area.

In Cork, Ógra Corcaigh has developed during the years a close working relationship with the City of Cork VEC, particularly with regard to training, the provision of premises and resources and the provision of part time instructors. This complements the view put forward already that we must avoid overlapping of services and attempt to utilise available facilities. This kind of co-operation has manifested itself in Cork in projects in the Hollyhill-Knocknaheeny area of the city and also in the Togher area which I would consider deeply deprived areas. This is a sector where effective co-operation is evident between the statutory and voluntary organisations responding to a perceived local need. There is the necessity to establish a comprehensive service that will effectively co-ordinate and ensure the delivery and take-up services in disadvantaged groups. An arrangement like this throughout the country would be appropriate. Local youth organisations are striving constantly to achieve objectives in order to help young people to achieve their maximum capacities through recreational and other programmes. I ask the Minister to take this view seriously and to accommodate it in the Government's policy document that I hope will be available in 1985.

My contribution today is a very limited one but I should like to pay tribute to the Minister. I am not doing this because he is a Minister of my party but because he has been willing to listen and learn in the past two years in his role as junior Minister at the Department of Labour and the Department of Education. The kind of progress made in recent times and the kind of funding made available through the Department to provide recreational facilities, the funding that became available through the Department to provide recreational facilities, the funding that became available through the plan Building on Reality, is a compliment to him and the work he has done in recent times. I hope the policy document will be published early in 1985. There has been a response from some of the youth organisations as a result of the publication of the youth committee's document and I hope that will be followed by far more submissions. I ask youth organisations throughout the country not just to make their views known to Ministers and to the Department but also to local Deputies. We are the legislators and we are only too happy to give some of our time to hear the views of young people. We may not be able to give everything that they want but at least we will listen and try to act on their views. There has been a serious breakdown in communications between the youth organisations and the legislators. I hope I will not be criticised for saying this, which I do in a genuine effort to get more communication, but I ask that any submissions made to the Minister should be made to us also as TDs.

I welcome the report. I hope to spend more time on studying its contents and getting advice from youth organisations.

Proinsias De Rossa

Will the Chair please indicate what time is available? Is the Minister replying to the debate today?

Mr. G. Birmingham

No, it will be a two day debate.

Proinsias De Rossa

I wish to know because I see that a number of other Deputies are also anxious to get in on the debate and I did not want to take all the time available. I welcome the report of the committee. However, I am disappointed with the Minister's response so far in that he does not appear, from what I could gather listening to the monitor, to have indicated when a Government policy document will be produced based on the report or to have indicated a timetable for the implementation of such a policy.

I welcome the report because it brings together a range of previous reports that have not been implemented but that have been left on dusty shelves. I am glad that the report stressed the concept of democratic participation by young people in their own areas and in life generally. There has been too little emphasis on the need to develop our democratic structures in this State and on this island. While a number of people have been concerned, as I am, that the young have a low opinion of politicians, it is also significant to note that generally young people have a high regard for many other professional people such as the Garda and teachers and also for their own parents. It is significant that the survey that was done on the attitude of young people indicated that only 4 per cent supported the use of force in Northern Ireland. That is very encouraging in these times when the impression is given that there is widespread support for that kind of activity. Obviously 4 per cent is still a significant number of young people but I think it gives reason for hope for the maintenance and development of our democratic structures.

The response to the report has been poor from the point of view of the resources allocated. I will refer briefly to two submissions I have received, one from the National Youth Council and the other from the Community Games people. The first states that there has been only a 3 per cent increase in the allocation for existing works, at a time when the inflation rate is expected to be 6 per cent. The submission from the Community Games organisation is particularly bitter, complaining about a 9 per cent cut. I should like the Minister to refer to those two complaints, which are fairly serious, coming from two organisations who do not deal with these things in a light way.

This report brings many other reports together, dealing with education, disadvantaged youth and so forth and the Minister should specify the policies he intends to implement, or variations of the recommendations in the report. I suggest that disabled youth should be integrated into the youth services and the Minister should state what steps he will be taking to deal with home abuse which Deputy Fahey referred to. He should also deal with the problems faced by young travellers which are much more serious than those faced by adult travellers.

We should think of the disadvantages suffered by young people belonging to settled families not just because of their own incapacities or problems but simply because of poverty. They are disadvantaged and at risk. It is no accident that most of the offences being committed of a minor nature, some serious, are committed by young people. Reports are choc-a-bloc each week with cases of young people falling foul of the law. Perhaps it is something associated with their ages, backgrounds and so on.

There is a section in the report called "substance abuse", which includes alcohol, glue sniffing and drug abuse. It is expected that abuse of alcohol is probably at least as serious as drug abuse but is has not been given the same degree of media attention. In the eyes of the public, drug abuse, the use of alcohol and hanging about street corners are regarded as the main youth problems.

It is interesting to note that the thing which youths have most desire for apart from good health is a job and it was unfortunate to hear Deputy Fahey offering the idea of one job per family, or something of that nature — when two adults in a family would be working one should give up a job to make it available to someone else. That is a very short term and simplistic approach to the problems of young people. While there are skilled young people unemployed, the greatest number of unemployed young people are unskilled and it is no answer to the problem to say that if the mother is working she should give it up to allow one of her children to take it up.

Mr. F. Fahey

What is the answer?

Proinsias De Rossa

I will give the Deputy the answer but I am sure the Minister of State does not want me to go into it. The answer is not job sharing or job splitting or one job per family. If the Deputy listened to Deputies Ahern and Reynolds he would learn that their philosophy is to develop the resources of the country to make jobs available in the productive area.

The idea has been put forward that the vocational preparation and education programme should be extended. One suggestion may be to take people off the live register between the ages of 15 and 17 years and taken off the queues for second and third level education, but I am not happy with the programme about to be introduced providing £300 per year each for young people between the ages of 15 and 17 years without, at the same time, providing an education maintenance allowance for those who want to study in normal second level education. They might simply drop out of the educational system. Instead of going on from the intermediate certificate to the leaving certificate, they might drop out because of financial demands at home or because £300 a year was available to them for training.

There is an argument in the report about the provision of unemployment assistance for young people. The fear is expressed that they would simply drop out of school to qualify for unemployment assistance. It is suggested that the scheme which is available in Northern Ireland for an educational maintenance allowance should be considered as a counter balance. That should also be considered in relation to the vocational, training and preparation schemes which the Government are introducing in 1985. There is a very real danger that young people will opt out of school in order to benefit from the financial inducement of £300.

Pre-school education is mentioned in the report. Increasingly it is being recognised that pre-schooling is essential for the development of children, their personality development and their social development. Up to now this pre-schooling movement, if you like, has been of a very ad hoc nature. Because of this it has been available on a voluntary basis in areas where they can afford to make it available. In other words, pre-schooling is available to those who can afford to pay for it. That is totally unsatisfactory.

I am concerned that the proposals in this report might lead to the maintenance of that ad hoc system. Pre-schooling is so important that it should be treated in the same way as primary education. It should be provided with the involvement of people who want to give their time voluntarily. It should be provided for by law for children from a certain age and it should not be available only to those who can afford to pay for it. That is an important point which the Minister should consider when he is deciding on his policy in regard to youth. It has wide implications and the Department of Education would be more directly involved. It can be argued that those who can least afford it are those who need it most. For that reason maintaining the present ad hoc system and operating it through voluntary organisations is not a satisfactory response to the need which is there.

I referred to the section on drug abuse and alcohol. In the report they dealt with that area most effectively. A number of specific demands should be included in any policy which the Minister produces. There is a grave need to retain in Jervis Street a detoxification unit. It seems that the proposal is to move it out to Beaumount Hospital which will have in the region of five beds only available. This would be totally inadequate. There is a need to ensure that local treatment centres are available where the drug problem is greatest, that is, in most of our heavily populated urban areas. Those two specific things should be included in whatever policy the Minister brings forward. This requires co-ordination with the Department of Health. It emphasises the fact that youth and youth problems cannot be isolated and dealt with on their own. There is a whole range of Departments, Health, Education and so on, which must have an input into the needs of youth.

Another point about which I am not too happy in this report — and I hope the Minister will think twice about it — is the implicit acceptance that emigration will be with us for the future and that, consequently, the youth policy should make provision for it — in other words, presumably make money available for organisations in Britain, or wherever, to enable them to cope with young people going there in search of work.

That acceptance was also implicit in the Government's recent national plan, Building on Reality. That is a very worrying aspect of the Government's thinking. The approach to unemployment, the attitude that emigration will be with us for the foreseeable future and the attitude that training is a substitute for jobs are very worrying and I cannot agree with them. The Government must be more adventurous in their approach to job creation and the solution of the unemployment problem. Youth on its own cannot be isolated from the rest of the population. The solution to the problem of youth unemployment can only be found in the context of solving the unemployment problem generally. Obviously that means providing adult employment as well as youth employment.

There is reference in the document to encouraging young people and training them to work on the land. While those suggestions are quite welcome, they do not attempt to deal with the question of where the land they are to work on is to become available. Who is to give it to them? There is no reference to farmers who have become old, or incapacitated, or are not willing to work their land. There is no indication in the document before us as to what should be done in that regard. That has to be tackled and, if young people are to be encouraged to work the land, land has to be made available for them. There is no point in training them to work the land if they have not got land to work. That has broader policy and political implications.

I wish to refer also to the licensing laws, having already referred to substance abuse. There is a need to tackle that area of licensing.

Debate adjourned.