asked the Minister for Communications the progress that has been made in improving transport infrastructure in and to Tallaght, County Dublin.
10.
Ceisteanna—Questions Oral Answers - Tallaght (County Dublin) Transport Infrastructure.
9.
asked the Minister for Communications if he considers it necessary to provide a rail link to the new town of Tallaght, County Dublin; and if so, his proposals in this connection.
11.
asked the Minister for Communications if, following the outstanding success of the Dublin Area Rapid Transit system the Government will now approve CIE's plans to extend the system to Tallaght.
12.
asked the Minister for Communications the up-to-date position regarding the provision of rapid rail for the Tallaght area, County Dublin.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 7 to 12, inclusive, together. There are no proposals for electrification of mainline rail services.
The question of a rail link to Tallaght falls to be considered by the proposed Dublin Transport Authority, in consultation with CIE and in the context of the overall transport requirements of the Dublin area. Legislation for the establishment of the Authority will be introduced in this session.
I am informed that the following road improvement works of benefit to the Tallaght area are being financed or have been financed in recent years by the Minister for the Environment:
(a) Tallaght By-Pass: this scheme is in progress, and the estimated cost is £7.5 million.
(b) Templeogue Bridge: this scheme is completed, and the estimated cost is £1.4 million.
(c) Belgard Road: this scheme is completed, at an estimated cost of £5.5 million.
(d) Western section of the Dublin Ring route: to be built over the next few years, at an estimated cost of £43 million.
Would the Minister agree that the road improvements to which he referred are primarily for the benefit of people by-passing Tallaght rather than for the benefit of the communications needs of the people in that area? Would the Minister also agree that they need a rail link, preferably electrified, which would provide communications for this town of 80,000 people who are cut off from any reasonable degree of transport policy? Would it not make good sense to use the expertise built up in the construction of the DART line in providing that rail link to Tallaght?
I would love to be able to say "yes" to the questions posed by Deputy Taylor but I am not in a position to do so. The matters which have been studied at length are complex and, as I said in my reply, I hope that the Dublin Transport Authority will be set up very quickly following the introduction of legislation in the very near future. I hope that Authority will then be able to come up with recommendations in relation to access to Tallaght in the context of an overall transport plan for Dublin. However, I should point out, as mentioned by An Foras Forbartha among others, that there is an inherent conflict between the low rise, low density planning policy of the local authorities in Dublin, which has the support of the vast majority of the population, and that of transit. It is not only here that that is recognised. I am sure Deputies appreciate that, if we have a low density population, there have to be more stops for fewer people. That, of course, adversely affects the economics and speed of the operation and suggests that probably the solution to the transport needs of Tallaght would be roads instead of railways.
Is the Minister saying that he would prefer to see our roads clogged with fume spewing vehicles instead of having a rail link supplied to Tallaght which, as I have said, has a population of 80,000 people? Does he agree that it would make sense to divert some of the moneys for road allocation towards the provision of a rail link which could provide a cheap transport infrastructural system for the people of Tallaght which they do not have at present?
There is some merit in the arguments put forward by Deputy Taylor but I should also make some counter arguments to show that it is not as clear cut a case as some rail enthusiasts might think. Nevertheless, the points which Deputy Taylor raised will be studied by the transport authority.
Could the Minister have a stop in his own constitutency?
Well, I have a certain interest in this as has Deputy Mac Giolla.
The Minister has outlined a total expenditure of £57.4 million on roads in and through Tallaght. Since CIE already own a substantial amount of the land required for the rail spur to Tallaght, could the Minister say what the cost of a rail link, not necessarily electrified, to Tallaght would be?
I understand we are talking about a cost in excess of £100 million.
Just for a rail link? It would not necessarily be electrified.
I am not sure whether that figure includes the cost of electrification. The cost of the Tallaght-Clondalkin-Heuston project would be in excess of £100 million. I would have to ascertain whether that includes the cost of electrification but I suspect it does.
What would the cost be for a non-electrified line?
I do not have that information but I will send it on to Deputy Taylor and Deputy Mac Giolla.
Is the Minister in a position to say what preparatory work, if any, has been done relating to the provision of a service for the Tallaght area?
As the Deputy knows, a certain amount of land has been reserved for the possible route of a rail link to Tallaght. Consideration has been given to the proposals of the Dublin Transportation Task Force by officials of my Department and CIE management. The board of CIE have asked the management to prepare alternative proposals for electric and non-electrified railways for consideration by the board before they are considered by me and the transport authority.
Does the Minister agree that a bad planning mistake was made by successive Governments in spending some £200 million in providing an electrified rail link to a town like Bray with a population of some 10,000 people instead of to a densely populated town like Tallaght which has 80,000 people?
That is argument.
Does the Minister agree?
It is a separate question but it is related to the subject under discussion. The case for electrification of the Howth-Bray line was not a very well made case and I do not think it would have been a decision I would have made if I had been starting off from scratch.
Would the Minister agree that this tendentious question from Deputy Taylor is a propaganda exercise? Would he like to explain how he and the Taoiseach celebrated the inaugural trip of the new train and gloried in this facility for the Dublin suburbs?
Deputy Wilson must have had a part in the scheme.
I was proud of it then and I am still.
The Deputy left Tallaght isolated with a population of 80,000 people.
What has the Deputy ever done? All we ever hear is guff out of him.
Quite a bit.
It is pure propaganda and appeasing the electorate. However, they are not that easily fooled.
Am I to take it that there are not detailed plans available, for this service? I am well aware of the amount of land that has been reserved. The Minister cannot accuse me of being political. His party spoke about this service prior to the last election. He is now the Minister and I am anxious to hear something about this. If people are interested in this where can they go to get information?
Deputy Wilson spent the money in the wrong place.
I was not the Minister but I was proud to be part of the Government who made the decision.
It would be very wrong to give the Deputy false hope or information. I have given all the information I can. The management of CIE are preparing alternative proposals for electrified and non-electrified services which, if approved by the board, will be sent to me and to the proposed transportation authority. The Deputy will recall that £57 million is being spent on major roads in and around the Tallaght area.
The Minister referred to the Dublin Transport Authority. I got the impression that everything will be submitted through them. Will they make the decision on this matter? If that is so, will the Authority be directly under the control of the Minister for Communications, the Minister for the Environment or the new municipal authority? Who will make the decisions in regard to Tallaght?
Legislation will be introduced shortly to set up the Dublin Transport Authority. It will me mainly responsible to the Minister for Communications as the Minister primarily responsible for transport matters. It is intended that it will form part of the reformed local government structures in Dublin when the greater metropolitan council is set up.
It will be set up under the municipal authority?
It is proposed that it will form part of the local government structures in Dublin when the greater metropolitan council is set up, but as far as its transport functions are concerned it will be responsible to me.
Does the Minister agree that the DART system is working very satisfactorily in respect of the excellent numbers using the system, its speed and efficiency and the very satisfactory effect it has had on easing traffic congestion? Would he agree with Deputy Mac Giolla when he referred to it as the outstanding success of the Dublin area rapid transport system?
The Deputy is anticipating another question on the Order Paper.
I am not. It is related to the reference made by the Minister.
I thought the Deputy was referring to another question.
Question No. 72 deals with that topic.
I may not be here when that question is being answered. The Minister referred to it so I am asking him a direct question as to whether he believes the system is working very satisfactorily in respect of the extra numbers using it, the speed and efficiency of the traffic on the line and the very worthwhile effect it has had on traffic congestion in the city?
The opening of the DART system has given CIE and the public a great lift. It costs a lot of money. I must criticise the way that was handled by my predecessors. it was approved by the then Government five weeks before the local elections in 1979 on a grant aid basis. Five weeks after the election it was changed to a loan basis.
Now see what we have got into.
It has achieved high passenger numbers, but it would need to double those numbers to break even. There are depreciation and financial charges, so it will cost CIE a lot of money.
Does the Minister agree that if he takes VAT, inflation and so on into consideration the cost of the new system worked out roughly the same as the original estimate?
That is right.
Question No. 72 deals specifically with this.
I was responsible for the system and am very proud of the fact.
We cannot debate it.
Do I take it that Deputies Taylor and Walsh will not be asked to run raffles in their constituency to provide the services they are looking for as we have to do in Mayo in order to finish the regional airport?