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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 12 Jun 1987

Vol. 373 No. 7

Estimates, 1987. - Vote 23: Office of the Minister for Justice (Revised Estimate).

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £18,576,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1987, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice, and of certain other services administered by that Office, and for payment of a grant-in-aid.

I propose that all the Votes for which I am responsible be taken together, but I shall endeavour to answer any questions on any particular Vote.

The total Estimate for all the Votes for which I am responsible is £373,668,000, a decrease of £9,781,000 or 2.6 per cent below the expenditure for these Votes in 1986. The Estimate is made up as follows: Vote 23 — Office of the Minister for Justice, £18,576,000; Vote 24 — Garda Síochána, £270,559,000; Vote 25 — Prisons, £66,305,000; Vote 26 — Courts, £11,535,000; Vote 27 — Land Registry and Registry of Deeds, £6,593,000; Vote 28 — Charitable Donations and Bequests, £100,000.

Pay and allowances etc., account for 81 per cent of the total Estimates and show an increase of 1 per cent compared with 1986.

The overall net Estimates provision for the Garda Síochána in 1987 is £270.559 million. Salaries, allowances and overtime account for over £204 million of this amount and the superannuation provision is £40.6 million. The other major items are £8.2 million for travelling, subsistence, compensation and miscellaneous expenses, £8 million for Garda transport, £7.6 million for the purchase, rental and leasing of radio, computer, office and other equipment, £4.97 million for postal and telecommunications services and £2.5 million for uniforms and accessories.

The provision for salaries and allowances takes account of the decisions announced in the budget in relation to the reduction in public service numbers. As has been the case in relation to all public services, measures have had to be taken this year to keep down expenditure in respect of the Garda Síochána. The Garda Síochána had been exempted from the earlier restrictions on recruitment to the public service, but it was not possible to provide for any exemptions this year. However, since the beginning of the year, 181 recruits have completed their initial training and have been assigned to stations and a further 45 recruits, to whom definite commitments of appointment had been made before the budget announcement of the proposed reduction in public service numbers, commenced their training on 12 May and will be due for assignment in October next.

It is not proposed to provide for any further recruitment to the Garda Síochána this year and I am not yet in a position to make any pronouncement about the holding of the next recruitment competition. Given these circumstances of unavoidable cutbacks in personnel, the overall objective must be to see that an efficient and effective Garda service is maintained within the resources available. This is a challenge to those entrusted with the management of the force and I am confident that it is one that they will meet successfully.

It is important to keep in mind that the number of gardaí is only one measure of the resources available to prevent and combat crime. There is need for a continuing review of the police needs of the community in the light of changing circumstances, and of the Garda response to these needs, to ensure that we are achieving the best use of resources. In assessing resources we must take into account the new technology which is being made available to the force and the greater efficiency and effectiveness which this makes possible.

In spite of the present economic situation progress is being maintained in making technological facilities available for the Garda Síochána. I understand that the new radio communication system is operating very effectively in all Garda stations outside of the Dublin metropolitan area. Work is well advanced on the installation of the new radio system for Dublin and it is planned that it will come into operation within the next few months. Also, a contract has been placed for the provision of a new computerised command and control system, at a cost of more than £2 million. This will complement the new Dublin metropolitan area radio system and when the integrated system is operational, hopefully in about a year's time, the Garda Síochána in Dublin will have one of the most advanced metropolitan police communications systems anywhere in the world.

The commissioning of the new computerised command and control centre will mark the completion of the second phase of the national communications network being provided for the Garda Síochána, the provincial radio network having been the first. The third phase is the linking of all the divisional systems and Garda headquarters by the provision of a microwave system for the entire country. Work is under way in relation to the provision of this system and, when it is completed, the Garda will have a completely independent nationwide communications system which will rank among the most modern police systems in the world.

In all £5 million is being provided in this year's Estimate to purchase outright all the equipment needed in the current year for the programme I have outlined. This will bring to more than £20 million the amount spent on the communications programme and I know you will see the continuing allocation of money to this project as demonstrating the Government's commitment to ensuring that the Garda continue to have the benefits of the most up-to-date technology and equipment.

Computerisation is another area where the Garda are being provided with modern facilities and the provision of £1.083 million in the 1987 Estimate is necessary to allow for further expansion in these facilities.

Training is of vital importance to the success of the Garda Síochána. I would like to take this opportunity to place on the record of the House my appreciation of the members of the Garda Training Committee for their dedication and commitment of time in producing their report on probationer training. This is a very comprehensive report and contains many valuable recommendations, some of them quite radical and involving matters of cost, conditions of service and availability of manpower which need to be considered very carefully. I am asking the Garda Commissioner and the Garda representative bodies and associations for their considered views on the report and I intend to take these views into account in deciding what will be implemented and the time scale involved.

There is an acceptance of the general need for cutbacks in expenditure on public services and, therefore, it is all the more important now that measures be taken to ensure that available resources are used as effectively as possible in providing essential public services. In this regard I intend to establish a Garda review group, as set out in the Programme for National Recovery, to examine Garda operational structures. I will be having discussions shortly with the Commissioner and with the Garda representative bodies and associations before deciding the form which the review group should take and the tasks which should be assigned to it.

The provision of £8 million for Garda transport is for the maintenance and running expenses of the Garda fleet and the purchase of replacement and additional vehicles. The reduction in the 1987 provision as compared with the expenditure in 1986 is due to the reduced cost of petrol and the fact that there was substantial expenditure on new vehicles for the fleet towards the end of 1986. The Garda authorities are keeping their replacement policy for Garda vehicles under continuous review in order to ensure that the safety and reliability of the fleet is kept at a very high standard while maintenance costs are kept as low as possible. The provision of £3.5 million for the purchase of Garda vehicles in 1987 is considered to be adequate to enable these objectives to be achieved.

The reduction in the provision for Garda overtime this year, as compared with last year, must be seen in the light of the current difficult situation in relation to the public finances generally and the need to continually assess the incidence of overtime working in the Garda Síochána. The allocation of £10 million should be adequate to maintain the same level of overtime as applied in the latter part of 1986. The Garda authorities constantly monitor the position very closely and they have taken and will continue to take measures to ensure that the funds available for overtime are managed in such a way that all essential policing needs will be met.

I want to strongly emphasise that the level of overtime provided for must not come to be regarded in itself as a real measure of Garda services available generally to the community. The vast bulk of Garda duties are performed in the course of ordinary, rostered, hours of duty and are not affected at all by overtime. Inevitably, because of the nature of Garda duties, situations arise where overtime is essential — for example to provide some type of special emergency service which obviously could not be met from normal resources or to allow some extra time or personnel to be allocated to the investigation of some particular crime. What we need to be careful to guard against is any suggestion that a very high incidence of overtime is a prerequisite for an effective Garda service or the only measure by which the level of Garda service to the community is to be judged.

Before I conclude my comments in relation to the Garda Síochána, I would like to say that I am very happy to see the members of the force in their new uniform. I think it does much for their appearance and I would like to think that it will do something for their morale. I know that the new uniform has been the subject of much favourable comment and I pay tribute to all those who were involved in the quite complex and onerous task of introducing a change of uniform for a Force of almost 11,500 members.

Over the past few years crime has seldom been out of the news. It is one of the major issues which our society has had to face. Let me refer to some statistics which will illustrate how the scale of the problem had changed over the years. In 1970, 30,756 indictable crimes were recorded by the Garda. By 1980 the figure had risen to 72,782 — an increase of some 136 per cent — and the 1984 figure was 99,727. It is encouraging to note that in recent years the situation has changed for the better. Over the three year period 1984-1986 there was a reduction of approximately 16 per cent in the level of indictable crime recorded by the Garda and I understand that the preliminary indications are that this downward trend is being maintained so far this year. This, of course, is not to suggest that we can become blasé about the crime situation. One crime is one too many. We must always be on our guard and must not relax our efforts in the fight against crime.

A disturbing feature of crime in recent times has been the increase in armed raids, and the emergence of increasing levels of violence in our society. I am aware that the Garda authorities have taken special measures to deal with these problems and I am confident that their efforts will bring about an improvement in the situation. It is worth mentioning also that specific measures to deal with particular problems such as so-called "joy-riding", attacks on the elderly and drug abuse have met with a marked measure of success.

This welcome improvement could not have been achieved without the allocation of the necessary resources to tackle the problem. It is important that people realise the magnitude of the expenditure provided in my Department's Estimates for services directly related to crime — the Garda, the criminal courts, the prisons, probation and welfare service, criminal injuries compensation, etc. In addition to the £350 million, approximately, which is being provided in my Department's Estimates for such services this year, a total of some £900 million has been spent in these areas over the past three years. While it is evident, therefore, that crime is an enormous expense to the public purse, the clear indications are that allocation of the necessary financial resources is having the desired effect and that we are moving towards producing the sort of society which we all hope to see — where safety and security will be further restored for people in their homes, in their work place, and on the street, and where life and property will be protected.

It is well recognised by all concerned in the fight against crime that large expenditure on resources of manpower and equipment alone — crucial as they undoubtedly are — will not produce the desired result. They must be allied to the full and whole-hearted support of the public. In particular, crime prevention is something at which we must all work and not merely leave the matter to the Garda. The evidence is that many crimes are committed by people responding to opportunities for crime. For instance, in the 1985 larcenies from unattended vehicles represented approximately one-sixth of all indictable offences recorded by the Garda. It goes without saying that greater vigilance by car owners in safeguarding their property would greatly improve the situation. The primary responsibility for the protection of property rests with the owner and we can all help to safeguard our property by taking relatively simple crime precautions at comparatively little expense, for example, ensuring that our windows and doors are securely locked when we leave our homes and cars unattended; ensuring that no items of property are left visible in cars; and ensuring that we do not carry large amounts of money on our person. It is vitally important that we do not underestimate the part which crime prevention measures of this nature can play in defeating the burglar, thief and vandal.

It is appropriate for me to refer in this context to the neighbourhood watch scheme which provides a structured mechanism whereby the public can play a part in combating crime. The fact that there are now some 389 schemes involving some 106,000 households in operation throughout the country is a clear indication of the willingness of ordinary members of the public to play their part.

At present the existing schemes are being evaluated and, while it would be premature at this stage to come to any definite conclusion as to the effect neighbourhood watch is having on the incidence of crime, the preliminary indications certainly look good. Apart altogether from the decrease in the overall level of serious crime, I understand that there has been, for instance, a substantial reduction in the number of burglaries at private dwellings over the past two years. This particular crime is one which causes a great deal of financial loss and personal distress to many people. It is heartening to note that the incidence of such crime is decreasing and my earnest hope would be that, with the continued support of the community at large, the Garda can continue with further success the fight against the criminal.

Prisons is another major area of expenditure for which I have responsibility. A net total of £66.305 million is being allocated to this area, the main elements of which are £39.2 million in respect of salaries, wages and allowances and £13.1 million for prison capital.

There has been some public comment of late about the implications of this year's allocations for staffing levels within the prison system. I am sure the House will appreciate that it would be inappropriate for me to discuss detailed manning arrangements at the various prisons. What I can say, however, is that I believe that any objective examination would show that the provision of financial resources to the prison service — particularly in the area of staff costs — has been maintained at a very high level. It is the case that the overtime figure for this year is some £2.5 million down on last year's outturn. However, that figure, by itself, gives a very incomplete picture because over the past year or so almost 200 additional staff have been recruited to the prison service. In the circumstances I think the House will accept that the £11 million allocated for overtime expenditure this year is more than reasonable given the constraints which have applied in all areas of public expenditure.

In relation to overtime generally in the prison service I have already made it clear that I am not happy with the level of dependence on overtime working inherent in the operation of the prison system. This is an area which is being examined at present by a study group comprised of officials from my Department and the Department of Finance. Given the general undesirability of high levels of overtime working this is an area I intend to pay special attention to.

The substantial provision which is being made for the Prisons Vote should be seen in the context of the huge increase which has taken place in recent years in the numbers in custody. Only five years ago the daily average prison population was about 1,200. At present about 1,960 offenders are being accommodated and this increase, in circumstances where no substantial new prison accommodation was provided, has clearly placed severe pressure on prison accommodation.

Clearly the increase in the number of committals and in the length of sentences being imposed by the courts has only been coped with through a great degree of resourcefulness on the part of staff and management of the prison service. I am sure the House will join with me in acknowledging the efforts which have been — and are continuing to be — made in this regard.

It is in this context of the pressure on existing custodial accommodation that I believe the House will welcome the provision made this year for the prisons capital programme. The allocation of £13.1 million for capital expenditure on prisons and places of detention indicates the Government's commitment to continuing the progress made towards rectifying the shortage of custodial accommodation.

A sum of £3.1 million of the Estimate relates to expenditure which may be incurred as a consequence of the proposed takeover, by my Department, of a new unit in the grounds of the Central Mental Hospital. Most of the balance of the money being made available ensures that work continues at full momentum on the new place of detention for 320 young male offenders at Wheatfield — a project which I initiated when Minister for Justice previously. This is the first phase of the Wheatfield Project. Construction and servicing of the custodial buildings is well advanced, within budget, and is expected to be finished by the end of 1987. When operational in 1988 it will enable the present, far from suitable, accommodation for young male offenders in St. Patrick's Institution to be vacated and subsequently adapted for adult prisoners to reduce pressure on existing accommodation for adults, particularly in Mountjoy.

The second phase of Wheatfield is a prison for 144. The site has already been developed, serviced and perimetered. Design of the custodial buildings is complete and the stage has been reached where tenders could be invited and a contract placed. The question of proceeding with this, or other projects to provide additional custodial accommodation on completion of the place of detention at Wheatfield will be considered in the context of next year's allocations. Apart from Wheatfield, work related to the upgrading of security and improvement of facilities generally is in progress mainly in Arbour Hill, Cork, Limerick and Mountjoy.

While there is no doubt that, looked at purely from the point of view of prison administration, the numbers in custody at present are undesirably high, I think it right to point out that this is a problem facing many other Administrations, particularly in Western Europe. Thankfully, it remains the case that we have been able to deal with this problem so far without resorting to the type of extreme measures which have been put in place elsewhere. For example, it is not uncommon in some other countries for offenders to be locked in their cells 23 hours a day, sometimes two or three to a cell. That is a type of situation which we have not countenanced here and I believe that the allocations being made this year in the Prisons Vote will be seen as reflecting a determination to ensure that the régimes available for offenders are maintained at as high a level as possible.

While it is inevitable that, in consixt sidering the Prisons Vote, emphasis is given to the provision and operation of custodial accommodation I would remind the House that I am also concerned with the question of the use of alternatives to custody. In this connection I am happy to assure the House that the scheme of community service which I instigated is working well and, indeed, has proved to be the most useful development in the field of custodial alternatives for many years.

As well as making non-custodial sanctions available to the courts, the Government are committed, even at a time of severe financial constraints, to assisting selected projects in the community which are geared to providing support for offenders on release from custody and for young people at risk of getting involved with crime. Many of these projects are initiated and run by community groups in association with the Probation and Welfare Service of my Department. Several hostels, workshops and resource centres have been set up around the country to provide such supports which I believe are of great benefit to the offenders participating in these projects and, ultimately, to the community itself. My Department provide 100 per cent grants towards the capital costs of establishing such projects and up to 90 per cent in grants towards their running costs. I am glad that it proved possible this year to provide almost £1.5 million for expenditure on this area.

Before leaving the Prisons Vote I would like to confirm to the House that I am at present considering the recommendations made by the Committee of Inquiry into the Penal System, under the distinguished chairmanship of Dr. T. K. Whitaker. I have already indicated publicly my belief that the committee's report is a very valuable document in the context of the formulation of penal policy generally and I would like, on the record of this House, to pay tribute to all those who served on the committee.

I turn now to the Courts Vote where I have broad responsibility for providing the services necessary to enable the courts to function effectively. My responsibility extends to the promotion of legislation relating to the establishment, jurisdiction and functioning of the various courts and the making of statutory orders under existing legislation.

Most Deputies will be aware of difficulties arising in regard to the suitability and adequacy of court-house accommodation. I am afraid that I still find it necessary to emphasise that responsibility for the provision and maintenance of court accommodation, with certain exceptions in the Dublin area, is vested by law in local authorities. It is apparent that pressures on local finances have affected the level of commitment of some local authorities to maintain decent court venues.

There have, of course, been improvements in recent years in a number of areas. At present, the restoration of Cavan court-house is under way and should be completed by the end of next year. I understand that Leitrim County Council are considering the possibility of providing a new court-house at Carrick-on-Shannon and that other local authorities are dealing with less extensive works on an ongoing basis. Even though local authority finances are restricted, in common with most other services, I see no reason why these buildings, which are essential if justice is to be dispensed locally, should not be kept in a decent state of repair.

In Dublin within the past few years nine additional courtrooms have been made available by the Office of Public Works for the various courts. A new courts office block at Inns Quay has just been completed and will be occupied shortly. The project will make it possible to provide at least four more courtrooms in the Four Courts complex. This should solve the courtroom accommodation problem for the higher courts in Dublin for some time to come.

Accommodation for the Metropolitan Children's Court has been a priority for a number of years. New temporary accommodation has been available since 1985 at Smithfield. Construction of a new purpose-built Children's Court in the same locality started in April of last year and this should be available by next autumn. The new Children's Court complex will have a wide range of facilities and should be up to the highest standards for a court of this kind.

The lack of adequate facilities such as waiting room, toilets, consultation rooms, solicitors' room and judges chambers at the Metropolitan District Court-house, Chancery Street, continues to attract complaints from staff, public, practitioners and judges. The design of the existing building and the very restricted site present major obstacles to any worthwhile improvements, but the Office of Public Works are currently looking at the problem to see what improvements might be possible. Because of the physical difficulties and the fact that these courts are in use on six days per week the implementation of any significant improvement would inevitably take some time and be very costly. In the meantime, I am arranging for the organisation of District Court criminal business in the centre city courts to be examined to see if better use can be made of available venues and if procedures can be streamlined.

As far as staffing is concerned, court offices have had to cope with staff shortages arising from the restrictions on recruitment in common with most other State services. In some cases lack of staff combined with increasing workloads has given rise to problems. The extension of computerisation in court offices will help to offset the worst effects of staff shortages. The computer system in the Dublin Metropolitan District Court has been operating efficiently for some years. It has proved most successful in processing a large volume of summonses and warrants. Last year the number of summonses processed exceeded half a million. The next development in computerisation is a pilot project in the Limerick City District Court office which is now being installed. Further expansion of the system to other offices in the provinces will take place as resources allow in the light of the results of the Limerick project. In addition, other operations in Circuit and High Court offices are being studied to determine to what extent these offices would benefit from computerisation.

Problems arose during 1986 in relation to the issue of summonses following judgments of the High and Supreme Courts. The Courts (No. 3) Act, 1986 was enacted to deal specifically with the defects in the summonses procedure identified by the Supreme Court. The Act is operating satisfactorily for the most part. Some problems which have arisen should be resolved soon when the results of a number of test cases awaiting hearing in the High Court are available. As I indicated in a response to a recent parliamentary question, the question of amending legislation, if any, would arise only when these test cases have been disposed of.

In two recent Supreme Court judgements, the latest in December last, serious doubts were raised about the constitutional competence of peace commissioners to remand prisoners in custody or on bail. I was advised that in the light of the Supreme Court's comments the continued exercise of such functions by peace commissioners could be successfully challenged and, as a consequence, they have ceased to be used for remand prisoners. Instead, prisoners are brought before the District Court for adjudication on the issue of bail or remand in custody. After normal court hours this means that a special sitting of the District Court, presided over by a District Justice, is held. One effect has been that, since April, a court sits virtually every night in Dublin, weekends included. I have already set in train a study in relation to the establishment of a permanent night court in Dublin and the experience gained in operating these courts will be very useful in that regard.

Another area of District Court operations which is under scrutiny is the enforcement of District Court fines. While some improvement was achieved in 1986 quite a lot remains to be done if fines are to be enforced at a high level of efficiency and respect for the law maintained. Further computerisation will be a help. My Department are at present examining a survey by a systems analyst into this whole problem and it is hoped that this study will assist in deciding on action to be taken for the future.

So far as the other courts are concerned, the main complaint is the delay in hearing High Court civil actions. The time taken to dispose of High Court civil actions averages about 12 months and in Cork the delay has been as high as 30 months. The President of the High Court has been arranging extra sittings in Cork to reduce the arrears and an improvement is expected by the end of the year. There are no delays in the hearing of nonjury common law actions. Circuit Court business in Cork has increased substantially since 1979 and this inevitably has affected the speed with which cases have been disposed of. The President of the Circuit Court is doing all that is possible to reduce arrears and has assigned a second judge to Cork on a full-time basis. There are also delays at a number of other Circuit Court venues. In an effort to improve the situation, two temporary Circuit Court judges were appointed earlier this year.

When considering this whole question of delays it should be borne in mind that they are not all related to the availability of court sittings. In many instances cases are not pressed forward by legal advisers in the interest of their clients, e.g., while awaiting final medical assessment of the likely long term effects of accident injuries.

The 1987 provision for civil legal aid is £1.745 million. Although this allocation will not, of itself, allow for any further expansion of the Legal Aid Board's services the board have been able to open four additional law centres in recent times at Cork, a second centre, Tralee, Athlone and Tallaght, County Dublin. These centres will be financed until the end of 1987 from the moneys available for civil legal aid under a provision in the Funds of Suitors Act, 1984.

Expenditure on criminal legal aid has evened out in recent years after an earlier period of rapid increase. The cost of running the scheme in 1987 is estimated to be £2.132 million which is marginally higher than last year. The net Exchequer expenditure on the scheme in 1987 will amount to about £1.4 million when value added tax at 25 per cent and retention tax at 35 per cent are recouped to the State.

All I propose to say on the subject of law reform is that legislative proposals which I have under consideration will be brought to the notice of the House in the usual way as soon as I am in a position to announce them. Deputies will be aware that my comment in this regard stems from the fact that it is not within the rules of this House to advocate legislation in the course of an Estimates debate.

Vote 27 — Land Registry and Registry of Deeds — is another Vote for which I have responsibility. The registries are labour-intensive organisations with nearly 90 per cent of their total voted expenditure being accounted for by salaries.

I am conscious of the fact that there are long delays at present in the registration work of the Land Registry. The problem is that the staffing restrictions applicable throughout the public sector have, in the case of the Registry, been accompanied by substantially increased workloads and, consequently, it has not been possible to avoid a deterioration in the service provided by the Registry.

The longest delays have been in the category of first registration including applications, usually known as section 49 applications, for establishment of title acquired by possession. It has been possible to carry out a reorganisation recently involving a redistribution of work which is already proving effective in reducing delays in this category. Every effort is being made through a greater use of technology and otherwise to keep delays in other categories of work to the minimum possible.

A programme of computerising the Land Registry folios has been in operation since December 1982. Regrettably progress has been disappointingly slow because only a small number of the staff required for the enormous amount of preparatory work involved in the programme can be spared from the day-to-day work of the registry. Modern technology has a lot to offer both to the Land Registry and the Registry of Deeds of the vast amount of documentation being handled daily as well as being stored and needing to be retrieved on an occasional basis. Word processors and personal computers are being used in the Land Registry as much as possible and further use will be made of them wherever this can be done within existing financial constraints. The feasibility of computerising the registry's maps is being studied at present. Arrangements will also be made as soon as possible to make a start on computerising some of the Registry of Deeds documentation.

I am keeping the situation in both registries under review and when conditions improve I will consider what further steps can be taken to reduce avoidable delays and ideally eliminate them altogether.

As six Votes for which I have responsibility cover a wide range of topics I have not attempted to be exhaustive in my remarks. I will, of course, endeavour to reply to any points raised in the debate.

As there is a time limit of 20 minutes imposed on me in this debate, it will not be possible to go into any great detail on each Estimate presented this afternoon. We, on this side of the House are not opposing this Estimate. We are conscious of the need to control public expenditure in the overall context but we warn against excessive cuts in sensitive areas like Justice because such cuts would cause crime rates to increase in a very short time and would involve the State in greater expenditure in the long term.

I congratulate the Minister's predecessors for the work they did in bringing about a reduction in many areas of crime. Unfortunately, there still is a great deal of work to be done. There is no such thing as an acceptable level of crime. I wish the Minister well in the uphill battle to bring about a situation where there is respect for the law and where people can go about their business feeling safe. I assure the Minister of my full support in his efforts in this regard. I congratulate the Minister on his appointment and wish him well.

Like most Deputies I receive a considerable volume of correspondence both from my constituents and from others complaining about the high level of vandalism, increasing incidence of violent crimes, robbery and thuggery. When I attend meetings of community groups, both inside and outside my own constituency, the same complaints keep coming up. There is a great deal of frustration and fear in the community. People are afraid to leave their homes in case they are burgled. They are afraid to leave their children on the streets, they are afraid to go to the shops and they are afraid to leave their cars unattended in urban areas. The saddest thing of all is that there is an increasing number of old people who are living in constant fear in their own homes. We have all learned about this during the by-election trails of the past number of years. We have realised that it is unfair to call on old people in the evenings because they are afraid to open their doors. We should not be proud of this type of society and we should co-operate with whatever measures are taken to eliminate that sort of fear.

I wish to refer, too, to the problem of under-age drinking. I have asked on a number of occasions whether the Minister will bring forward the Intoxicating Liquor Bill which we produced while in Government. Unfortunately the Bill has not come forward to date. The part of that Bill I am concerned about is the section dealing with under age drinking. Not alone should we be controlling in a better way the sale of alcohol to persons under 18 years of age but there is an urgent need to look at the sales of alcohol to young people from off licences. This is a continuous problem. In various parts of Dublin, and indeed in other cities throughout the country, large groups of teenagers gather for cider parties, drink excessively and cause a great deal of annoyance, disturbance and fear among the local community. I had such a situation in my own constituency. A public meeting was called recently to discuss the issue. It emerged from that meeting that the one single problem was the availability of cider to young people who range in age from ten to 20. Large groups of young people gather and drink cider late into the evening.

This leads me to another point which is the matter of parental control. There is no excuse whatsoever to have 12 to 14 year olds out late at night and arriving home stoned out of their minds having consumed a large volume of cider. I often ask where are the parents and what are they doing. The Minister referred to that in his speech. He said we should not always look to the Garda or to somebody else to solve our problems, that we should look at ourselves.

The time has come when we should look at legislation to see where we can strengthen the obligation on parents to be responsible for the actions of their children. In this instance we are talking about a relatively small number of young people but that small number can do an enormous amount of damage and can cause a great deal of annoyance and disturbance in a particular area. It is frustrating to see gardaí being called out on a regular basis. When they arrive there is very little they can do because under present law they cannot take these young thugs into custody. There is a total disrespect for the Garda Síochána and for the law among certain groups. We must put a great deal of emphasis on involving the parents and making them responsible for the actions of their children where this is not being done.

I found when addressing these meetings that there is no point in quoting statistics, saying that there has been a reduction in crime. While that may be a fact, if one is living in an area where there is vandalism of the type I have referred to it is not of much benefit to tell people that statistics show that crime is reducing. People do not believe it. They will also say that we do not have enough gardaí. From the information supplied to me it appears that there are more gardaí per head of population in this country than in most other European countries. I have found a great deal of intolerance among the community in relation to our inability to deal with this type of problem. I urge the Minister during his term of office, short as it may be, to deal with this problem and to bring forward amendments to existing legislation, or to bring forward new legislation, to deal with the modern day problems of vandalism, thuggery and so on.

There is always a feeling that we do not have enough gardaí. In considering the Vote it will be seen that we are spending in excess of £270 million on the Garda Síochána. I ask the Minister, and this request has been made many times before, to deal with the area of management within the Garda Síochána. I note that the Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism also dealt with this area. There is a need to give back to the Garda Síochána a certain responsibility for the spending of this money. Obviously, the Minister's Department must have some control. Greater onus should be put on top management within the Garda Síochána in the manner in which they spend the money, the way they can save money and how they can become more efficient. As long as they are not seen to be totally responsible we will continue as before. We understand why we cannot continue to increase the allocation being made to the Garda Síochána but I agree with the slogan of the Minister's party that there is a better way in regard to spending the allocation to the Garda Síochána.

I note that this year there will be no further recruitment to the Garda Síochána and that this may follow into 1988. I hope that decision will not result in an increase in the level of crime. At a time when there is no recruitment we should be considering the question of better training and retraining schemes in the Force. We could cope with the level of crime by putting more emphasis on in-service training. This is an ideal opportunity for the Minister to re-examine the question of recruitment to the Force. He should be considering the length of time for training new recruits. In my view the training period should be extended. We should be examining the educational qualifications of new recruits, have another look at the method of interviewing applicants and introduce a psychological assessment and aptitude test to try to identify people with qualities of character which would not make them suitable for membership of the Garda Síochána. There is more to being a policeman than simply having certain qualifications and training. A great deal of common sense is needed. There is a lot to be said for the old system where it was the tradition in some families for sons to follow fathers into the Force. At that time the standard of recruits was very high. We must try to find an alternative way to attract a better type of recruit and it is necessary to examine the method of training.

I should now like to deal with those involved in the training of new recruits. What qualifications do they have? What training is given to new recruits? We should consider locating the training headquarters closer to a third level college so that recruits can avail of courses at those colleges. Such issues should be considered at a time when we are not recruiting new gardaí. It is time that we gave consideration to greater use of civilians for clerical and administrative duties in the Force. It is pointless to train people as gardaí and then involve them in work that can be done by civilians. Greater use of civilians would release gardaí for police work. Will the Minister tell us in the course of his reply if he has any plans for a better back-up service in the Garda Síochána to deal with clerical work?

I asked the Minister for the Environment a question in the House recently about on-the-spot fines because I was concerned about the amount of time spent by gardaí waiting for cases to be called in courts. Most road traffic offences could be dealt with by means of an on-the-spot fine. There is also a great deal of inconsistency in the law. A person who does not display a tax disc is liable for an automatic on-the-spot fine of £50 and if one parks a car five minutes in excess of the permitted time at a parking metre, one is faced with an automatic fine of £10 but I have often read of cases of the Probation Act or a small fine being applied where people were found guilty of breaking red lights or ignoring pedestrian crossings. There should be consistency in regard to road traffic offences. On-the-spot fines would cut out a lot of delay and permit gardaí to devote more time to dealing with serious crimes.

It is pleasing to be able to record that the neighbourhood watch scheme has proved successful. It has proved to me that if we give responsibility back to the community and give them proper support they will respond. I hope the scheme is extended and that gardaí will continue to be involved in it. In certain provincial areas where stations are not manned on a 24-hour basis there was an extension of the station's telephone to the home of the sergeant or the member in charge but, as a cost saving measure, that extension has been withdrawn. The fact that telephones have been installed outside most stations which can be used to contact local gardaí when the station is closed probably reduces the need for an official telephone extension to the home of a garda or a sergeant but I wonder how members will be contacted in the case of an emergency. Will a patrol car have to be sent out to contact the member? If that is the case we are getting involved in a cost saving exercise that will result in more expenditure.

I should now like to deal with the training of our prison officers and the management structure in our prisons. It is unfortunate that I do not have sufficient time to deal with this matter in any detail but we must look at our recruitment policy and management structures. I was shocked to learn lately that between one-third and one quarter of our prisoners are severely handicapped in basic literacy and numeracy. Ignoring the provision of educational opportunities in prisons would be unwise. The value of education in the prison system cannot be overstated. Many prisoners have little opportunity to realise their skills or resources they possess. Many have low images of themselves, images which may be further reinforced by the experience of imprisonment.

For the benefit it can give, education is not over-demanding of prison facilities, a moderate classroom and library space being the main requirements. A great deal has been achieved to date in educational facilities in prisons and I should like to compliment the vocational education committees for the role they play in supplying teachers. I would hate to think there would be a cutback in this area because it is essential to realise that locking people in prison for a term and then putting them back on the streets to resume their old way of life will not solve the crime problem. The provision of educational facilities would perhaps help people to stay out of trouble.

I should like to refer to the therapeutic facilities available to sex offenders in prison. This is an increasing problem which has been highlighted lately in the newspapers. We all abhor such offences and steps must be taken to eliminate them but shoving people into prison and ignoring them and then putting them back on the streets to behave in the same way will not solve the problem. In conjunction with the probation welfare officers, a great deal could be done to rehabilitate these people so that when they are released they will manage to stay out of prison. If they received treatment it would alleviate the fear and anxiety of the community in which they live.

I am aware that the resonsibility for the provision and maintenance of court accommodation, with certain exceptions, is vested by law in local authorities. However, it is obvious that local authories, because of cutbacks, do not have the finances to deal with this problem. The responsibility for the provision of courthouses should revert to the Department of Justice. In many parts of the country, including my own constituency in Dún Laoghaire, the conditions under which people operate are scandalous. I do not entirely blame the Minister but the problem must be dealt with, particularly in the area of family law, where the present accommodation is totally unsuitable. I ask the Minister to look at the possibility of introducing legislation to take away the responsibility for the provision of courthouses from local authorities.

The Deputy's time is up.

I do not have the time to deal with the many other issues involved in the Estimate as 20 minutes is not long enough. I must respect the——

You must respect the Order of the House, Deputy.

The matter is so important that the Minister can be assured of my co-operation if he can bring about a situation in which this country will be a better place to live.

As Deputy Barrett said, a period of 20 minutes is not adequate to deal in a comprehensive way with this Estimate. In the context of re-establishing committees of this House, it is disappointing, that it appears we will not have a committee which will cover the areas under the jurisdiction of the Department of Justice. That is a pity because the Joint Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism set up by the previous Government did excellent and valuable work. I should like to see that committee upgraded and revamped to a committee of all parties in this House — and perhaps the other House — because they were excluded from the committee. I should like to see a committee which would have increased powers to bring witnesses before them, which could investigate thoroughly and bring reports before this House for action in the whole area of legislation in relation to matters concerning the Department of Justice. I should like to ask the other parties in this House, especially the Government party, to reconsider whether it is wise, given the amount of public disquiet at the level of crime and sentencing policies adopted by some of the courts, to abolish such a committee. Many people now feel we do not have an appropriate system of justice and — as I said this week in another debate — it is more akin to a lottery depending on the judge who hears your case or the people who represent you whether you get justice. We will make a grave mistake if we do not reactivate a committee of that kind. As legislators, we should ensure that we are in a position to bring forward proposals and to scrutinise and examine many of the matters in the ambit of the Department of Justice. In an Estimates debate, which we have about once a year, it is not possible to have a meaningful discussion except in the context of very specific legislation which is a shame. I hope the Minister will bring these recommendations to the Government.

Despite the fact that over the past two years crime has decreased to some extent, we all agree it is at an unacceptably high level. It is not just the numbers of crimes about which I am concerned — I will deal with that later — it is also the vicious nature of some of the crimes over the past few years. There is a greater use of offensive weapons and firearms and there have been many vicious attacks, particularly on elderly people, which was not the case in the past. There is a breakdown in values which is a pity.

During the period 1975-85 crime increased by 190 per cent. It is worth noting where the increases took place. In the area of robbery there was an increase of 162 per cent; in relation to armed robbery there was an increase of 302 per cent; burglaries increased by 383 per cent; there was an increase in arson and malicious damages of 427 per cent; larcenies increased by 283 per cent; the incidence of rape increased by 92 per cent. In 1975 we did not have any statistics in relation to drugs but in 1985 a total of 1,270 persons were charged with drug related offences. They are very frightening statistics. Despite the best efforts of the Garda Síochána, the amount of money spent and voted through the House and despite the fact that in western European terms we have one of the highest levels of expenditure in the whole area of justice — one garda per 80 or so families — it is very disappointing to note that the figures are increasing at such an alarming rate.

In 1975 the total value of property stolen amounted to £3.8 million; in 1985 this figure had risen to an astonishing £31.2 million. Ten years ago, 16 per cent of property stolen was recovered but in 1985 that figure was down to 8.5 per cent. Crime appears to pay very handsomely and because of that many people are prepared to take a chance on not being caught and perhaps to spend a lifetime in crime. This country has a rate of burglary per 100,000 households 1.7 times higher than in Great Britain.

People give various reasons for the increase in crime. There can be no doubt that the level of unemployment and the socio-economic circumstances in which so many people find themselves must be contributory factors. If one looks at the educational level and the background of those sentenced to prison one can very quickly see, as Deputy Barrett said, the low standards of education, the lack of opportunities and that many of them grew up in unhappy homes without proper parental supervision. That is a disturbing factor. It is a pity that even in a time of cutbacks and the need to live within our means and to be sensible in expenditure of moneys, we tend to make cutbacks in the wrong areas. The most vulnerable, marginal groups and issues tend to suffer most. Over the next couple of months we will hear much more about that. Parental and family circumstances and poverty existed in the past but we did not have such levels of crime. They are not an excuse but we must take them more seriously.

We must pay more attention in our educational system to helping deprived families by preventing crime rather than having the present reaction of putting money into areas where crime is taking place. If we spent money wisely in advance we might have a far more efficient and cost-effective solution to the problem. We might keep many individuals, particularly young offenders, out of prison. That ends up destroying them and the lives of those around them. Crime is a big business for many. We seem to see prison as the only way to deal with those involved in a whole host of crimes. We must be a little more imaginative. In connection with serious crimes involving people who are either a danger to themselves or to society, there is obviously no alternative to prison, but there are people serving prison sentences who could be dealt with in a different way. We could have greater use of fines. The community services orders which were passed some years ago are not being availed of as effectively as one would like, which is a pity.

Earlier this week in another debate Deputy McDowell, my colleague, said that any society which did not give financial compensation to the victims of very serious crimes such as rape is a sick society. I have to agree with him. The amount of money involved is only something like £2 million, yet we did not see fit to keep on our Statute Book legislation to protect such victims. If we had done so we would have shown that as a society we were not prepared to tolerate the effects of those serious crimes.

I turn now to the Garda Síochána. Like most of the Members of this House, I should like the Garda Síochána to be independent of this House and the Government and of political interference, despite the fact that they come under the auspices of the Minister for Justice and that essentially the secretary of the Department of Justice is the accounting officer of the Force. There is a huge amount of money involved. The Minister referred to £270 million going this year towards the functioning of the Garda Síochána. The bulk of that money goes on the payment of wages and salaries. The head of the Garda Síochána should be the accounting officer of the Force and the Force should be totally and utterly independent. For that reason I support the idea of a police authority. In recent years we have seen far too much interference.

That police authority would have under them a police appointments commission which would make recommendations to the Government on those suitable for senior positions in the Force, positions such as commissioner, assistant commissioner and deputy commissioner. These should be in a position to appoint other officers of the rank of chief superintendent, superintendent and so on. All members of the Force should be able, through open competition within the Force, to apply for these positions. It is not satisfactory that it is a matter for the Government to decide — on what basis I do not know — who the people will be to serve in senior positions, without any effort being made to have any kind of independent board recommending to the Government people who are suitable.

We need to look at the role, mangement and operation of the Garda Síochána. Since the foundation of the State we have not done so, which is disappointing. A couple of years ago a firm, Messrs. Stokes Kennedy Crowley were asked to compile a report and to examine the structure, organisation and role of the Garda Síochána. It is a pity that report was never made public or discussed, and was not acted upon. It is not too late yet to change fundamentally the whole management, operation and organisational role of the Garda Síochána. The present systemn is not appropriate to the Ireland of the eighties and into the next century.

Of the crime committed in this country, 57 per cent is committed in the Dublin area, yet only 37 per cent of the Garda Síochána are placed in this area. I am not saying that one must have a direct proportion of gardaí to crime, but we must have new Garda divisions and have them more independent than they are at present. We need, perhaps, four to six divisions in the whole country, each with a person of the rank of chief superintendent in charge, who would report directly to the commissioner. We need to organise the Force differently in different areas because different methods are required in different areas. The policing of rural areas is very different from what is required in certain urban areas, particularly in Dublin, Cork and Limerick.

Gardaí should be able to reside in certain communities. Within certain communities there is hostility to the Force because the only time they are seen or called upon is when there is serious crime in the area. Young people grow up with a very strange attitude to the Force. Many Members of this House represent areas with a high level of crime and they felt that it the Garda Síochána were encouraged, through financial reward or otherwise, to reside in these areas it might be a great help towards restoring their image and creating a workmanlike spirit between the residents and the Force.

With regard to the Judiciary, there is a need for the Government to appoint a judicial appointments committee. Again, it is now a matter solely for the Government to decide on whom they want, given the ten year qualification. That is not good enough. It allows for too much political interference. I should like to think that a committee consisting of, perhaps, the Attorney General, the President of the High Court, the Chief Justice and people of that kind would make recommendations to the Government on persons suitable for appointment to the various courts.

On their appointment I should like to think that members of the Judiciary would undergo training, particularly with regard to family law because from what I hear of such cases — which are held in camera — and from what I have learned as a member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Marriage Breakdown, the Judiciary do not have adequate training or understanding to deal with the very sensitive area of family law. I should like to think that we could have family tribunals or a proper family court. There is no reason why we could not. They should be properly staffed with the kind of experts who could help people in these very difficult situations in an informal setting, not in a court where wigs and gowns are worn and there is an intimidating adversarial system. That is no way to deal with disputes between husbands and wives. I should like to think that we could, as a matter of urgency, deal with such matters.

The previous Government, before leaving office, asked the Law Reform Commission to deal with a whole host of areas relating to rape legislation, family law matters and so on. That is a pity. I have said before and repeat that there is not a need for a law reform commission. That is our job. We use these commissions as a delaying tactic. We require legislation and should be making recommendations and be involved in the process of law reform. I accept that an Estimates speech is not the place to deal with such a subject, but this is one of the few opportunities we have to have any kind of general debate on the responsibilities within the ambit of the Minister for Justice. It is time we took our jobs as legislators seriously. In a few weeks time there will be a four months recess and yet there is so much urgent legislation which needs enacting.

Earlier in the week we had much discussion about the courts, judicial decisions and so on and I do not wish to repeat what was said there. There is a need to hear certain crimes in a higher court. At the moment cases relating to rape and very serious cases such as manslaughter are dealt with at Circuit Court level and the higher echelons of the Judiciary are not involved. The Director of Public Prosecutions should be given the power to transfer, if he sees fit, cases dealing with rape and so on to the Central Criminal Court. That would be more appropriate. At the moment I understand that only cases involving treason, murder and attempted murder, piracy, genocide and crimes of that kind are referred to the Central Criminal Court. As we all know, thankfully, those crimes are not frequent or common.

It is desirable that justice is done and is seen to be done. The very thorough newspaper reporting which now goes on — and I am delighted that it does — has opened our eyes to what happens in the Four Courts and other courts. When strange judicial decisions are made there is a need for judges to be in a position to be able to explain why certain decisions were made so that the public can clearly understand why a particular sentence was given. We all know sentencing policy is very different from one court to another and from one judge to another. A sentence seems to depend on the whim of a judge and his own priority as to whether one gets a suspended sentence, a sentence of a couple of months or years or a fine. That is a shame. It is not good enough. There are certain crimes which do not have a mandatory sentence. We will have to examine the possibility of imposing sentences for these crimes.

Deputy Barrett referred to the need to make parents more responsible for the activities of their children. In general I agree with that. I have seen many examples of where parents have totally ignored their responsibilities and expect their neighbours, the State or somebody else to rear their children for them. Parents who, through negligence, have not looked after their responsibilities should be subject to a fine or whatever. Unfortunately, that is the only way in which some parents will take their role more seriously. I know many parents who, despite their best efforts, are not in a position to control very unruly and difficult children. It is not always the case when young children get involved in crime that it is the responsibility of their parents. It would be simplistic of us to assume that it was. Deputy Taylor represents the same constituency as I do and we have frequently met parents who have been very upset about the activities of their children. They are afraid their neighbours, friends or the community at large will think their children had committed a crime because of the way they had been reared.

As a community we have not taken seriously the problem of teenage drinking. We have to look at the possibility of withdrawing or suspending the licences of people who sell drink, many of them in off-licences attached to supermarkets. These people seem to have no regard for the age of the person who buys drink; they serve them regardless of their age. We have to be more vigorous in enforcing the law in that regard. There is a need for a national identity card system because it is not always possible to tell the age of a customer. Some 12, 13 and 14 year old children can often look much older than they are and vice versa. There are many other areas that would benefit from the introduction of a national identity card scheme like they have in many other countries. If we had a scheme like that there would not be such a long queue outside the Passport Office because the identity card would probably be acceptable for entry into most member states of the Community.

During the past few weeks I have received many complaints from constituents in relation to the legal aid scheme. It seems to be in total chaos. There seem to be long delays and many offices are not able to cope with demands. I recognise the financial constraints which are imposed on all Departments. We should make provision for contingency fees: no foal, no fee. I know many lawyers would do very well out of that. They would get a much higher percentage of the fee than they normally would get. It may be the case that some lawyers, if they did not think they had a certain chance of winning, would not take particular cases but there is some sense in moving in that direction in many respects.

Crime has increased to an unacceptably high level in recent years. Fines, imprisonment and the expenditure of more money will not solve the problem. All of these are necessary if we as a society are to show we want to stand by the rule of law, that we respect the rights of citizens and that we want to ensure that citizens live in as peaceful and as secure a society as possible. We have to begin through the educational system in ensuring that the value system which existed in the past — and which can exist again in relation to certain matters — is restored. That is the only way we can ensure that our society returns to what existed in the past.

This is a small island country with three and a half million people and there is no reason why we should have the kinds of crime that are in other parts of the world. I hope as a result of the efforts of this House and the efforts we as legislators may make in other areas of responsibility, that we will be able to show that the law is fair, that the system of justice operates on the basis of impartiality and that those who come before the courts, irrespective of whether they have money, are dealt with even-handedly and in a fair and impartial way. The various arms of the State — the Garda Síochána, the Judiciary, the prison officers or whatever — which are enshrined in the Constitution as bodies independent of the Executive should be truly independent and not in any way subjected to political interference.

I want to open my remarks on this discussion by referring to the question of legal aid which was touched on briefly by other speakers. It has been said for a long time that justice is open to everyone, just like the Ritz Hotel is open to everyone. This should not be allowed to continue in a modern democratic country. It has gone on too long. I am most disappointed to see in the Estimate that there is to be no expansion of the civil legal aid scheme. In effect, that is a denial of justice to very many people. The Constitution requires equality for all. There is no equality for all on this issue, as on many others in this country and we are making very little effort to bring about that very essential equality. We have provided extensions in the law and have given new rights to various people in family law and other aspects of law. There is no value in giving these additional rights to people unless they are also given the means to avail of them. In the complexities of modern-day law and modern-day society that means making available to people who cannot afford it the ability to get the necessary legal expertise and other professional expertise they need to enable them to avail of their rights.

The present system is completely unsatisfactory. The law centres do trojan work. The problem is that they do not have the staff or the resources to cope with the demands which are made upon them. That is unacceptable. In many cases people are unable to avail of the rights which this House gives them. They are denied the rights given to them by law for the simple reason that they do not have adequate money at their disposal. The law and justice present a completely different picture to a person who has the means and to one who does not. People who have the means, including insurance companies and organisations of that nature, have unlimited resources at their disposal. They can consult solicitors, barristers, doctors, engineers and any other professionals they need so that they can take full advantage of the law. People who do not have the means are denied that. There must be a bounden obligation on us to ensure that does not continue. Much improvement could be achieved in this area at a very little cost. I understand that for many years in the UK they have operated a legal scheme which is part operated by private firms who concede a certain percentage within the costs they recover to a central pool fund which goes a long way towards funding the legal aid scheme. I do not know why this has not been considered here as a supplement to the community law centres. It could well have an important role to play. I ask the Minister to consider that.

I am surprised that the Vagrancy Act, that antiquated mediaeval legislation, is still on our Statute Book and is still availed of in prosecutions. In effect it makes a homeless person a criminal just because he is homeless. Strong representations have been made on this issue by the Simon Community for a number of years. I support their view on this. One of the sections of the Vagrancy Act has been long since found unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. The offence of wandering abroad, I have no doubt if the Supreme Court were consulted on it, would also be found unconstitutional. We have had Dáil committee and Law Reform Commission reports advocating that the criminalisation of homeless people should be removed from the Statute Book. I urge the Minister to introduce legislation to deal with that. Homeless people are penalised in other ways. As the Simon Community have pointed out, if a homeless person is arrested and charged, for the most part he finds it impossible to obtain bail because he cannot furnish a fixed address. We have not done enough to ensure equality of treatment for homeless people. Steps should be taken to ensure that bail is available and people should not be denied it simply because they cannot furnish a fixed address.

In relation to the Garda and the crime levels, I pay tribute to members of the Garda Síochána for their magnificent contribution to the State and for their dedicated work in securing law and order to the extent they do. However, their resources are inadequate. That fact was pointed out by Deputy Woods, as spokesman on Justice. In the course of many debates in this House he dwelt on it at length. The Minister, Deputy Woods, scored over the previous Government, for example, on the level of funds for Garda overtime. He said that it was outrageous that adequate overtime resources were not made available to the gardaí to fight crime. It appears to have escaped public notice that this Government, in yet another display of breathtaking hypocrisy, have abandoned another policy position to which they were passionately committed until 10 March last. Deputy Woods as spokesman for Justice said in the Dáil as reported in the Official Report of 13 May 1986 at column 741:

We are not dealing with statistics, whether they are going up or down, but with the clear pattern of an increase in violent crimes and injuries to citizens. Various Coalition Ministers have tried to fudge the issue in an effort to avoid their responsibilities. They suggest that the crime problem is under control.

At column 742 he said:

The buck stops with the Minister for Justice, and as long as the Government continue their cutbacks and their failure to re-inforce the Garda the criminals will have a free rein.

This Government have cut back Garda overtime by a further £3 million. This kind of hypocrisy should be highlighted and it should be known that the Minister and the Government are not making a serious effort to put their high minded hypocritical talk into action. Armed crime is on the increase. This has been highlighted by the Garda Commissioner, Mr. Lawrence Wren. There has not been a breakthrough in the fight against gun gangs. This is on the increase and there is nothing in the Minister's Estimate to show that additional resources are being made available to the Garda to cope with this.

On the subject of armed crime, Members may have seen in the newspapers recently an article in connection with the free sale in shops in Dublin of imitation guns which are exact replicas of revolvers and other guns. This is outrageous. Except by a thorough detailed close up examination, these guns cannot be distinguished from the real thing. That cannot be allowed to continue. It is a most serious matter which requires the attention of the Minister for Justice. I am asking the Minister to ensure as a matter of urgency that legislation is introduced to ban this montrosity.

Deputy Barrett touched on the question of education in prisons. I pay tribute to the great work being done in a limited way by the officers engaged in that work, particularly the probationary welfare officers. It appears that there are to be cutbacks in the prison education system. That should not be permitted. The prison education system is very important and it should be expanded so that any prisoner who wishes to avail of educational services can be facilitated. In 1984 a point was reached where any person who desired to have access to educational courses could have it. As a result of pressures on prison numbers that apparently is no longer the position and the educational provisions have not kept pace with the number of prisoners. The Minister should take a formal positive decision to increase the education units so that facilities for education can be made available to every prisoner who requests them.

By and large the system of justice works fairly and well and the staff, courts and so on are a model and a tribute to us all, but it has to be recognised that on occasions the system can go wrong. For example we complain and campaign about alleged miscarriages of justice in courts in England due to mistakes in identification and due to false evidence being given. We are right to do that. That can happen here. In one case on which there is at present a petition before the Minister for Justice, that has happened. That is the so called case of the Tallaght Two in respect of which one convicted young person is in custody still and the other has escaped and has protested his innocence for a long time now. I have been pressing for a considerable time to this Minister in consultation with other constituency colleagues and other Members of this House, for a review of the case of the Tallaght Two because in that case I believe that a miscarriage of justice has taken place. Another person has stated in a video television programme that he was the person who was guilty of this crime, yet matters seem to be dragging on and no review has taken place.

Here I make a special appeal to the Minister to respond on this issue and make an order releasing the Tallaght Two on grounds of clemency pending a more detailed investigation so that justice may be seen to be done and our system be shown to be fair. We should be big enough to recognise that where a mistake may have occurred we are prepared to accept that. Let nobody think that that would be a sign of weakness; far from it, that would be a sign of courage and strength and it would only enhance the public view of our justice system.

Much has been made of, and we are aware of, the pressures on the prison population and how the prisons are overcrowded. There are many people in the prisons at all times taking up space, who have been committed there to prison but who have committed no crime at all. I refer here to those people who are in prison for civil debt. They have committed no crime but they are unable to pay a debt to a hire purchase company, a banking company or whatever. That cannot be right in this day and age. Many of these people do not understand the legal process. I know this for a fact. Deputy Harney represents the same constituency as I do and I am sure she knows this also. People come with documents called examination orders, instalment orders, committal orders and so on which are a mystery. They do not understand what these are. Admittedly they take on commitments on hire purchase or whatever and they have no way of checking the interest payments charged by many of these hire purchase companies. Some of these people are unemployed and they find themselves in prison serving 14 days, a month or even more for a debt but for no crime at all.

It is true that district justices have a rule that they will not commit to prison a person who is on social welfare provided that a person knows enough to go along to the court and produce his or her social welfare card. I have come across quite a few cases, and if I have come across quite a few there must be a considerable number there, of people who were unemployed but who, if they had known enough to go to the court and show their social welfare card, would not have been committed to prison. However, they do not know that and through no fault of their own, because they cannot pay instalments out of the social welfare and assistance moneys they get, find themselves in prison. Under the present system when they are in prison, even though it is proved that they should not be there, it is extremely difficult to get them out again. In one case I must admit that I was given great co-operation by the officials of the Department of Justice, but, even with that, obtaining the release of such a person involved great difficulty and a great problem.

Imprisoning people for civil debt is outdated. The hire purchase companies who are the main institutions who avail of that procedure will have to find some other way to secure their money and recover the debts than putting people into prison for civil debt. That goes back hundreds of years, it is medieval and should have no place in a modern legal system.

The question of the hearing of High Court civil actions has been touched on by the Minister. The delays taking place there are unsatisfactory. Changes in the procedures and the systems will have to be introduced to obtain a speed up. Some of the procedures there that have been operating for a long time will have to be examined. I refer in particular to the "two senior" rule under which in the average High Court action two senior counsel, a junior counsel and a solicitor are automatically retained. That procedure is completely inappropriate and the Bar Council seem disinclined to do anything about it. It seems that it will have to fall to the Minister to discuss the matter with the Bar Council. In the UK quite a different system operates in the average comparable case. Where here three counsel are employed, in the UK one counsel is employed.

Deputy Harney touched on criminal injury compensation. It is on the record of this House that Deputy Woods when he was spokesman on Justice gave a firm commitment to the House that if Fianna Fáil were returned to Government they would reintroduce the criminal injury compensation code. I have been looking out for this measure and for fulfilment of that promise. I thought that the present Minister for Justice would have given some indication of it or made some provision for it in the Estimate. He does not appear to have done so. I am telling the Minister that I will be looking out for it very carefully in the coming year, in the budget, and in the forthcoming Estimates and that I will be reminding him of it.

Deputy Alan Shatter. Let me inform the Deputy that in accordance with the Order of Business of the day I am obliged to call the Minister for Justice to conclude this debate at 4.50 p.m.

I intend to deal with some matters that have not been raised in this debate yet and to refer in a somewhat different way to at least two matters that have been raised. Deputies have referred to the legal aid system. I was astonished that the Minister in his speech when making reference to the civil legal aid system and law centres did not refer to the current position. Two speakers have mentioned difficulties and delays in people getting assistance from the law centres. The system of law centres operating currently in Dublin is in crisis. The three main centres in Dublin to provide civil legal aid to people who cannot afford to pay legal fees closed their doors to new clients. These centres in 85 per cent of their work provide assistance to people in the family law area, more usually deserted, unmaintained or battered wives who cannot afford to pay legal fees to solicitors in private practice and who very often require immediate, emergency legal assistance. In Dublin the main law centres, those that operate at Aston Place, Ormond Quay and Gardiner Street, are all currently closed in effect. If a person seeking legal assistance goes to one of those law centres he or she will be told not only that he or she cannot see a solicitor but that there is not even a waiting list maintained that can extend to that person the possibility of getting in the short term legal assistance to which she or he is entitled.

In replying I ask the Minister to deal specifically with the law centres operating in Dublin city. I ask him to explain to this House how it is that in the past three months these centres have closed their doors to new clients. The centres cannot offer a service to new clients and at present deal only with people who came to them seeking legal help and assistance during 1986 or the very beginning of this year. There is a crisis obtaining at these centres which is not the result of anything done on the part of those working in the centres. The centres are over-worked and under-staffed. They are being affected in a way I believe they should never have been affected by the application of the Government's embargo on recruitment to the public service. The reality is that if a solicitor attached to one of these centres currently leaves the centre — be it for a year's unpaid leave or permanently — the three in one rule is applied. The centres, as operated in Dublin at present, cannot provide the service that either the Minister or his Department purports to tell the public is currently available.

I draw the Minister's attention to the fact that the type of law centres we have at present — and their provision which commenced in 1980 as a result of an action brought against this State before the European Court of Human Rights when we were held to be in breach of the Convention on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms by denying, in particular, women with marital difficulties, in need of support, women who had been battered or abandoned, the possibility of obtaining free legal assistance — means that we are again in breach of that European Convention on Human Rights and there is the risk of this State again disgracing itself before the European Court.

Rather than simply saying that the centres are in difficulty, it is right that the general public should know the extent of those difficulties at present. I ask the Minister to state when these centres — which operate under the direct aegis of his Department: they are non-statutory; they were provided for by way of departmental arrangements within the Minister's Department — will again open their doors to provide legal aid for people seeking it.

In the context of the general level of crime, of criminal law, comment has been made by other Deputies that I see absolutely no necessity to repeat. Might I raise two issues that have not been fully raised to date with the Minister? We have a criminal law system which goes back through the centuries. Over the years since the foundation of the State we have heaped new legislation on top of it. Every year in this House legislation of some description is passed, no matter which Government are in power, which creates new criminal offences. Our criminal law is now a labyrinthine mishmash of legislation passed through the centuries. In some areas where serious offences are committed, offences regarded as serious by the people who are the victims of offenders, the sentences or the fines that can be handed down have become virtually irrelevant as either a deterrent to crime or as a punishment for crime. What we badly need is an updated, comprehensive code of criminal law. I ask the Minister to consider the provision of such a code during his term in office, particularly in the area of fines, which will bring our legislation up to date in the context of the modern value of money.

Much has been said about the effects of crime on those who fall victim to crime. Our criminal justice system does not formally make provision to allow the courts to require the person found guilty of a crime, or the perpetrator of a crime, to pay compensation directly, or to make restitution to the victim. On occasion the courts do so in an informal way by judges adjourning cases to see whether someone who has been found guilty of a crime will make some form of compensatory payment to their victim. It should be formally part of our criminal code that the courts are empowered to make that type of order in circumstances in which crimes are committed and persons are found guilty.

In dealing with the whole area of courts I am disappointed at the Minister's failure to refer to an area to which other Members have referred and to which I believe it is worth directing the Minister's attention again. The Minister makes no reference to having any intention of any nature whatsoever to update or change the court structures in the general administration of family law. A great deal has been said about this in the past. The need for family courts is very well documented in the report produced by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Marriage Breakdown. Our family law structures at present are operated through three different sets of courts, the District Court, Circuit Court and High Court. It is a fragmented, overlapping jurisdiction in which people who come to court seeking to have very sensitive and distressing family problems resolved engage in a game of judicial roulette in which, if they get the right judge, they may have a sensitive, concerned and considered hearing of the issues that have to be resolved. On the other hand, if they get the wrong judge dealing with the case, one who has no training or insight into family problems, who has no perspective of the impact of violence, for example, on a battered wife, or no real understanding of the financial problems caused to a dependent spouse whose husband is not paying proper maintenance what can take place in that courtroom can have a more traumatic effect on the lives of the people who find themselves in court than anything they have experienced heretofore in the context of their family problems.

This week in this House we debated what took place in what has become known as the Cavan rape case. I do not intend to enter into that debate this afternoon. All I can say is that, in the context of that case, public concerns were voiced about different aspects. Some of those concerns are certainly valid, some may not be, but various concerns were voiced. I believe that family law cases, marital, adoption, child custody cases going through our courts on a daily basis should not be heard in camera. They should be heard in public. This would mean that people would learn of the general way, particularly in our lower courts, the District and Circuit Courts — in some areas of the country; it does not apply throughout the country — such cases are dealt with, the small amount of time devoted to them. They would learn the impact of the type of decisions taken, some of which often are very difficult to reconcile on the basis of either law or logic. Then I believe the sort of outcry and public concern that has been expressed about the Cavan rape case and other cases which have been debated on occasion in this House would be very mild compared with the outcry that would arise if people outside this House, outside the small group within the legal profession who deal with family cases, were aware of the problems that exist in this area and the manner in which they are confronted.

The Fianna Fáil election manifesto stated that Fianna Fáil would reform the existing court procedures for dealing with family law cases to minimise the legal trauma for all involved and would introduce court procedures which would shift the emphasis in litigation from confrontation to factual inquiry. There was nothing in the Minister's remarks this afternoon to indicate how he intends to implement that proposal. I ask the Minister to tell the House how he intends to implement that proposal, what is meant by it, what action he will take and when will it be taken. Is the recommendation of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Marriage Breakdown relating to the provision of family courts to be implemented?

I might make one further point on the general area of criminal law. The dispute and public debate that took place this week on the Cavan rape trial and the behaviour, rightly or wrongly, of the lawyers involved in it and the other concerns relating to it have not yet resulted in one fundamental issue being addressed, which is that we currently have an amateur system for prosecuting criminal offences. The Director of Public Prosecutions, in the prosecution of individual offences, picks from a choice of counsel in the entire Bar Library the counsel to prosecute in particular cases.

I am now obliged to call the Minister.

I have three sentences left.

The Minister's time is more limited than any other's at the moment and ten minutes is all he has to reply.

I think the Minister will give me time for three sentences.

Three short sentences.

I am suggesting that we completely revamp the way we deal with the prosecution of crime, that instead of the Director of Public Prosecutions picking counsel from the Bar Library he should have a corps of lawyers, solicitors and barristers, attached to his office who would develop within it an expertise in the prosecution of crime. In developing that expertise they could work together in ensuring that there is a fully comprehensive prosecution system applicable uniformly in the prosecution of all cases. The provision of such a system would restore much of the public confidence that has been battered and would relieve much of the concern that has been created in recent days.

First, I would like to thank those Members who participated in the debate. I will do my best to try to reply to the different points raised. I wish to thank Deputy Barrett for his words of welcome and congratulations on my appointment, for the second time, to the Department of Justice. My term in office may not be as short as the Deputy might wish but he is not in a position to do much about it.

With regard to under-age drinking, Deputy Barrett knows this involves bringing forward legislation. I have already explained in my opening comments that I am not in a position to deal with such matters because it would be outside the rules of the House to advocate legislation during the course of the Estimates debate. I am considering at present the problem of under-age drinking, a matter referred to by Deputy Harney, and the possibility of the introduction of some form of identity card. That matter was not being catered for in the licensing laws published some time ago by my predecessor. It is one of a number of points which I will try to accommodate in legislation. I am told there are obstacles and I am quite satisfied that these obstacles can be dealt with. I hope that when the legislation is discussed in the House in the very early days of the next session we will make progress in this regard and will deal with a problem area about which we all feel quite strongly.

I appreciate what Deputy Barrett said about Garda recruitment. He expressed the hope that the restriction will not lead to a reversal of the crime trend. As a result of the most recent intake of 45 recruits on 12 May the panel of 1,944 men which was drawn up as a result of the last competition organised in early 1983 is now exhausted. The 45 recruits undergoing part 1 of their training at present are due to complete training in October 1987. Of the 987 women on the panel drawn up as a result of the last recruitment competition, a total of 205 have been called for medical examination and 104 have been appointed to the force. As I said in my opening remarks, in accordance with the Government decision on recruitment, there will be no further recruitment to the Garda Síochána during 1987. No decision has been taken on the question of recruitment to the force in 1988. This matter will be considered in the context of the Estimates for 1988. If a decision is taken to recommence recruitment in 1988, it would be necessary to organise a new recruitment campaign later this year.

Deputy Barrett asked me to give some indication of my intentions in relation to back-up services for the Garda. It has been the policy in recent years to employ civilians in a clerical and administrative capacity in Garda offices where possible to enable the release of gardaí engaged in clerical work for operation of Garda duties. As a consequence of this policy, 429 gardaí have been released. There are still 580 gardaí employed full time doing desk jobs and it is my intention to replace as many of them as possible with civilians. It is necessary that gardaí carry out a number of these jobs but certainly not all of them. In regard to a suggestion made by Deputy Barrett that gardaí are hanging about the District Courts, this subject has been given a good deal of attention of late by the Garda and by the Department of Justice. I said that the use of computers in the Dublin Metropolitan District Court and in other courts is very helpful and will obviate much of the waste in this area. We hope to do a major overhaul in this area because the members of the Garda do not want to hang around courts all day long.

With regard to education in prisons 115 teachers, 85 of whom are employed full time, by the local VECs provide tuition for offenders in all institutions. Some of the subjects taught include literacy, social education, art, PE, languages, woodwork, drama and music. Perhaps we should be doing more in this area and it is our aim to do so if we can.

Deputy Barrett referred to the disconnection of phone extensions between Garda stations and married quarters. The decision to withdraw those facilities was taken as part of an ongoing policy to improve and streamline communications in the Garda Síochána. The decision was approved by the Garda Commissioner after careful examination of all aspects of the matter. The total rental cost of the telephone extensions was approximately £21,000 per year. The existence of the extension facility was never a guarantee of response to requests for assistance outside the normal opening hours of Garda stations. Facilities for the public to contact the gardaí have been improved by the provision, as part of the new Garda communications network, of public access call-boxes at all Garda stations which are not open around the clock. The call-box enables members of the public to contact the Garda free of charge at times when their local station is closed. That covers the point raised by Deputy Barrett.

Deputy Harney and Deputy Shatter raised the question of training of the Judiciary. To be eligible for appointment to the bench, nominees must have a minimum of 12 years practice in the Supreme Court and the High Court and ten years in the lower courts. In order to practise a person requires an appropriate basic legal qualification awarded by the Law Society of Ireland and the Kings' Inns. This amounts to substantial basic training. Specific training for new appointees to, and for serving members of, the Judiciary would be best considered in consultation with the Chief Justice and with the Presidents of the other three courts since it is only they who can influence the kinds of decisions made in their courts. There is no reason, if the Chief Justice and the Presidents wish, that initial training and ongoing professional training could not be introduced. I can discuss this matter with the people concerned and get their views on it to see if something can be done in this area. There is obviously a need for this, as was mentioned here not just today but also last week and earlier this week. We will see what can be done about that matter.

Deputy Harney advocated a police authority and wide-ranging changes in the Garda Síochána, in particular with regard to their role vis-à-vis the State. I mentioned in my opening remarks that I intend to establish a Garda review group to examine Garda operational structures. This would, of course, comprehend the suggestions made by the Deputy. We will have plenty of opportunity of discussing this matter again.

On the question of extension of the on-the-spot fine system, Deputy Barrett recommended that Garda time might be saved by increasing the number of road traffic offences for which on-the-spot fines may be imposed. This would require legislation which would be a matter for the Minister for the Environment. However, the existing system of on-the-spot fines is at present being examined. I propose to have discussions on this matter with the Minister for the Environment because I have a number of worthwhile suggestions to make to him which might make things easier all round with regard to motoring offences.

Deputy Harney referred to the high level of crime in our society. While the level of crime remains a matter of great concern, it is worth reiterating that the level of recorded indictable crime decreased by over 10 per cent in 1984 and 1985 and preliminary figures for 1986 indicate a further reduction in the order of 5 per cent. This downward trend is distinctly encouraging. There can, of course, be no relaxation of the efforts to deal with crime rates which still remain at too high a level. I assure Deputy Harney and the House that one of my priorities is to tackle the problem and the Garda will continue to have the full support and backing of the Government in their efforts to further reduce crime levels.

I cannot outline in any great detail in the time available to me the various measures being taken to deal with the problem of crime. However, in general terms such measures include optimum deployment of Garda manpower, the improvement of Garda operating systems and procedures, the provision of more modern equipment for the force and the development of appropriate strategies for the involvement of communities in the fight against crime. I should point out that perhaps the decrease in crime in recent years has something to do with the increase in our prison population. Deputy Taylor quoted from a headline in an evening paper which is alleged to have said that there is no breakthrough in armed gangs. That is not true. The Garda Commissioner told me recently when discussing this matter with him that in recent times the Garda have been most successful in breaking up quite a number of armed gangs.

I quoted that from the paper.

I would not like the House or the Press in general to believe what the Deputy says is correct because it is not so and I would like the Deputy to accept that.

It was reported in the paper.

I am telling the Deputy it is not true. It is up to him whether or not he accepts it.

I feel bound to inform the House that we are gone past the appropriate time.

Deputy Taylor also said that nothing appears to have been done about imitation guns around the city. Imitation guns did not appear in the past six or eight weeks since I became Minister for Justice but since I became Minister I have had a discussion with the Garda Commissioner about the matter and I asked him to get to grips with it immediately. This is the first time such a request was passed on to him by any Minister for Justice, including those whom the Deputy supported in Government in the past four or five years.

Vote put and agreed to.
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