asked the Minister for Finance the proposals, if any, he has to extend the functions of the Comptroller and Auditor General to permit him evaluate the effectiveness of public expenditure; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Public Expenditure.
10.
Following my predecessor's announcement in the Dáil last year that it was intended to review the legislation relating to the Comptroller and Auditor General with a view to preparing proposals to enhance his legal powers, my Department have been examining the matter. This review involves not only examining legislation governing the Comptroller and Auditor General but also looking at developments abroad in relation to national auditing. The matters being looked at include value for money auditing which covers examinations into the area of economy, efficiency and effectiveness. It will be appreciated that this is a complex and sensitive area. My Department's review is still on-going and before any proposals are finalised consultation will be required with a number of interested parties, including, of course, the Comptroller and Auditor General himself.
Is the Minister disposed to widening the powers of the Comptroller and Auditor General in principle? Is he willing to put any timetable on introducing legislation to bring about that effect? Does the Minister agree that there is widespread public concern that the Comptroller and Auditor General is limited to asking very technical questions which effectively deal with whether money was applied technically in the area where it was supposed to be rather than whether it should have been applied or if it was wasted? Finally, will the Minister agree that the White Paper on a better way to conduct the nation's finance produced, I think, by Deputy Bruton brought up the question of whether these powers should be amplified or whether there should be a commissioner on public expenditure. Many years have passed since that White Paper was floated and we still seem no nearer to legislation in the area.
I repeat that the areas being reviewed are very complex and sensitive. ]The Deputy will appreciate that. This is the first major review since the twenties. The present legislation requires that the Comptroller and Auditor General audits Government accounts for accuracy and regularity. However — and this I have had experience of myself — over the years he has expanded his role on a non-statutory basis to identifying and reporting on instances of loss, waste or uneconomic expenditure. That is a fact and it cannot be denied, as members of the Committee of Public Accounts will accept. This portion of his work has involved the Comptroller and Auditor General in examining questions of economy and efficiency but on the whole he has not become involved in the area of effectiveness. Any proposals for giving him a role in relation to effectiveness must ensure that the Comptroller and Auditor General does not become involved in commenting on or criticising Government policy or the merits of policy objectives. I think all Members of the House would agree with that, as would the Comptroller and Auditor General himself. It would merely lead the Comptroller and Auditor General into conflict with the Government and draw him into the area of political controversy.
Will the Minister respond to that portion of Deputy McDowell's question which asked whether the Minister, in principle, believes it would be right that legislation be introduced formally to extend the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General in view of his apparent endorsement of the creeping role of the Comptroller and Auditor General in that area of valuation of expenditure? Secondly, is the Minister aware that in the Comptroller and Auditor General's most recent report, in the introduction there is a specific reference to the fact that with the optimum utilisation of his existing resources the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Mac Domhnaill, clearly states he is unable adequately to evaluate and do his present task. That is also a matter of immediate and urgent concern. There is a question of the principle of whether we should have some form of valuation of expenditure and, secondly, the immediate virtual crisis in relation to the auditing of present Government expenditure. This is, incidentally, already two years out of date, the last report being 1985. The Comptroller and Auditor General puts down the marker then that he cannot do any further work.
I think this was much better than in the years gone by.
That is irrelevant.
It is very relevant. The internal departmental review is expected to be completed in the autumn and it is from there on that we can start the consultation with interested parties. In talking about acceptance in principle, we are talking about very sensitive and complex issues here. It is not a question of being for or against in principle. It is a question of having the review, which is ongoing at present, completed and the necessary consultations taking place with the Comptroller and Auditor General and other interested parties. In my time around here, regardless of the role, I have yet to hear of any Government agency saying they have surplus staff. There is no agency of whom I know that have not on numerous occasions stated that they never have enough staff. That is a fact.
It is the first time this has happened with regard to the Comptroller and Auditor General.
I am not talking just about the Comptroller and Auditor General. ]I am talking about all involved in the public service and in administration generally.
That is another question.
It is another question but it is related to the one which the Deputy raised. In so far as staffing levels are concerned, they are under constant review. We shall be dealing with a particular question on that for priority today.