Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 19 Jun 1987

Vol. 373 No. 11

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 3, 1, 15 and 16 (Vote 47).

It is also proposed that No. 1 shall be taken without debate.

It is further proposed that the proceedings on the remaining stages of No. 15 shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 12 noon today by one Question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only amendments set down by the Minister for Labour.

It is further proposed that the proceedings on No. 16 (Vote 47) shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 5 p.m. today.

It is further proposed that if a Division is challenged on the Estimate being taken today the taking of such Division shall be postponed until 8.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 24 June 1987.

Mr. Spring

At least, Sir, I assure you that I am staying here today. I am sure the Taoiseach will share my concern for the proposed motorway in the Liberties section of Dublin. Will he give an assurance to this House that he will give the same instruction to his councillors as he gave on a previous occasion?

An Ceann Comhairle

That seems to be a matter that is inappropriate to the Order of Business. Deputy Michael Keating.

Mr. Keating

On the Order of Business——

Mr. Spring

The Taoiseach wants to reply.

Mr. Desmond

We have broken all precedents so we might as well——

Mr. Keating

On the Order of Business today there are a number of items which are to be either taken without debate or concluded, in our view somewhat prematurely, in view of the fact that there has not been afforded to most Members of this House any reasonable opportunity to participate in those debates. The proposal emanates from discussions from which we have been systematically excluded. Will the Taoiseach be good enough to comment on this? He put on the record yesterday suggestions that the basis——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is very anxious to ensure that we do not have a repetition of the disorder which has prevailed in recent days on this subject matter. Is the Deputy indicating that he is opposing the Order of Business as outlined by the Taoiseach for today? The essence of his rising here this morning is to oppose the Order of Business.

Mr. Keating

The Taoiseach said yesterday that the basis of the difficulty was his alleged inability to contact the Whips of some of the parties in this House. That is patently untrue and fundamentally nonsensical. He knows the reason is that an arrangement has been made between the Whips of the two major parties to exclude systematically any other party. That is the basis of the difficulty, not what he alleged yesterday.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is misleading himself particularly in regard to today's Order Paper. The first item on the Order Paper is simply making an order for Second Stage. The second item is an amendment from the Seanad.

Miss Harney

Which we proposed in this House.

The Taoiseach

The third item is a Bill which has been around, discussed and debated for practically 12 months and the remaining item is the Estimates for Public Services.

Mr. Keating

Would the Taoiseach like to comment on the second part of what I said?

Mr. Deasy

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the legality or otherwise of the health contributions paid in 1979 or in respect of the year 1979.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no provision for an Adjournment debate on Friday.

Mr. Deasy

Can I ask the Taoiseach to make a statement on the matter? There was a cock-up.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Tomás Mac Giolla

When precisely is it intended to take item No. 24 on the Order Paper, an Dáil a chur ar athló, Adjournment of the Dáil? Also, when is it intended that the Dáil shall return after the adjournment?

The Taoiseach

That will be discussed and dealt with by the Whips, including the Whip of The Workers' Party.

Tomás Mac Giolla

On that point there seems to be a general opinion — where it arose I do not know — that the adjournment is to be at the end of next week, I am asking if I can have confirmation of that.

The Taoiseach

It will be announced in due course.

Mr. D. O'Malley

Is it proposed to take the Committee Stage of item No. 2, the courts Bill, prior to the recess?

The Taoiseach

No, not prior to the recess.

Mr. D. O'Malley

Is the Taoiseach aware that this is a matter of great urgency and that there is considerable concern, particularly on the part of the many people who are worried about the expense of motor insurance, that this matter should be taken? Is it good enough to leave it here and put the Dáil into recess for a period which I understand is going to be 15 and a half or 16 weeks?

The Taoiseach

That legislation is complex and the Government took a decision that there should be a long period between Second Stage and Committee Stage so that everybody concerned would have a further opportunity to examine the issues and make submissions in regard to them. I think that is a wise way to proceed. We have had juries for centuries. It is a major legal change. It has very considerable implications from the point of view of the individual citizen, his or her rights, and the Government decided that this was the proper way to go about it.

Mr. D. O'Malley

Is the Taoiseach aware that if he now proposes to leave the Committee Stage until October 1987 a period of approximately 18 months will have elapsed between the passing of the Second Stage and the taking of the Committee Stage? Is that what he has in mind by a reasonable period for discussion because the Second Stage of this Bill was passed in April 1986?

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot debate this matter this morning.

Mr. D. O'Malley

Is this not a most unreasonable delay? It is not a complex Bill, it is quite a short one. Second Stage has already been agreed well over a year ago in this House. There is a considerable need for it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, Deputy, we cannot debate this matter this morning. A question has been asked and has been replied to. We may not proceed to debate it. The Deputy will have to desist from making any further reference to this matter.

Mr. D. O'Malley

It is disgraceful, a 16-weeks recess and this Bill is being left there.

Mr. Desmond

May I ask the Taoiseach when will the ground rents Bill be cirulated? I gather we are taking it next week.

The Taoiseach

Immediately. We will be taking it next week. It is a Bill only to extend the time. It is not a complicated measure.

Mr. S. Barrett

To follow on from what Deputy O'Malley was speaking about — the courts Bill — would the Taoiseach consider referring that Bill to a special committee of this House that could deal with this matter during the summer?

The Taoiseach

I will certainly consider that but initially I would not be disposed towards that suggestion. It is really a Bill into which people outside the House would like to have an input and make submissions about. That is why we are allowing time to enable them to do that.

Mr. T. Fitzpatrick

The Taoiseach will realise that the sub judice rule was about for nearly a century and was abolished the other day without debate.

Mr. Keating

In regard to item No. 24 on the Order Paper, the Adjournment of the Dáil, the item raised by Deputy Mac Giolla——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not going back on that one, Deputy Keating.

Mr. Keating

I simply want to ask the Taoiseach if he would clarify——

An Ceann Comhairle

There will be a motion before the House on that subject matter later.

Mr. Keating

It specifically arises from the Taoiseach's reply when he indicated that the Whips would be consulted, including the Whips of The Workers' Party. I want to know genuinely whether he was indicating there would be consultation between all the Whips on this matter and, presumably, therefore on other matters, or whether he was just being a little——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not going back on that again.

Miss Kennedy

When does the Taoiseach propose to have talks with representatives of the other parties in the House on the proposed commemoration ceremonies for 12 July?

The Taoiseach

A meeting of deputy leaders will take place next week.

An Ceann Comhairle

Are the arrangements for the taking of business, as proposed by the Taoiseach, agreed?

Mr. Keating

They are not. I indicated earlier they would not be agreed.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am putting the question: "That the arrangement for the taking of Business, as proposed by the Taoiseach, be agreed to."

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 56; Níl, 13.

Tá

• Ahern, Bertie.
• Ahern, Dermot.
• Ahern, Michael.
• Barrett, Michael.
• Brady, Gerard.
• Brady, Vincent.
• Brennan, Matthew.
• Briscoe, Ben.
• Burke, Ray.
• Byrne, Hugh.
• Calleary, Seán.
• Collins, Gerard.
• Daly, Brendan.
• Dempsey, Noel.
• Dennehy, John.
• de Valera, Síle.
• Ellis, John.
• Fahey, Frank.
• Fahey, Jackie.
• Fitzgerald, Liam.
• Fitzpatrick, Dermott.
• Flood, Chris.
• Flynn, Pádraig.
• Gallagher, Denis.
• Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
• Haughey, Charles J.
• Hilliard, Colm Michael.
• Hyland, Liam.
• Jacob, Joe.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Leonard, Jimmy.
• Lynch, Michael.
• Lyons, Denis.
• MacSharry, Ray.
• Mooney Mary,
• Morley, P. J.
• Moynihan, Donal.
• Nolan, M. J.
• Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
• O'Hanlon, Rory.
• O'Keeffe, Ned.
• O'Kennedy, Michael.
• O'Rourke, Mary.
• Power, Paddy.
• Reynolds, Albert.
• Roche, Dick.
• Stafford, John.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Tunney, Jim.
• Wallace, Dan.
• Walsh, Seán.
• Wilson, John P.
• Woods, Michael.
• Wright, G. V.

Níl

• Clohessy, Peadar.
• Colley, Anne.
• Cullen, Martin.
• Desmond, Barry.
• Harney, Mary.
• Keating, Michael.
• Kennedy, Geraldine.
• McDowell, Michael.
• Molloy, Robert.
• O'Malley, Desmond J.
• O'Malley, pat.
• O'Sullivan, Toddy.
• Spring, Dick.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Morley; Níl, Deputies Harney and Kennedy.

Question declared carried.