Vol. 374 No. 11
(Limerick East) asked the Minister for Finance the total amount of money raised through the sale of tickets in the national lottery from its inception to date; the amount which the Government expect to receive from An Post in profits from the national lottery; the way in which he intends to distribute this money to the relevant beneficiaries; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
9.
asked the Minister for Finance the total proceeds from the national lottery to date; the amount envisaged in a full year; the total cost of administration including prizes; if there is any agreement to compensate other lotteries affected by the national lottery; those who will benefit from the distribution of the proceeds of the lottery; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
11.
asked the Minister for Finance if his attention has been drawn to the fact that concern has been expressed by the public following the announcement that excess funds from the national lottery are to be allocated to projects other than those associated with sport and culture; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
14.
asked the Minister for Finance if he will outline the procedure now being adopted to allocate the proceeds of the national lottery; the ratios being used to guide allocation decisions between different expenditure areas; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
20.
asked the Minister for Finance the estimated income from the national lottery for 1987; and if he will make a statement regarding the way in which the money will be allocated.
22.
asked the Minister for Finance if he will indicate the anticipated net revenue from the national lottery in 1987; the manner in which the profits will be distributed; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
31.
asked the Minister for Finance the proposals, if any, he has to make changes in the allocation of funds from the national lottery whereby voluntary organisations can qualify for capital grants towards funding of various projects; whether it is proposed to make grants payable from the national lottery funds through the local authorities to voluntary organisations; if he has any alternative plans for the spending of funds from the national lottery; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
40.
asked the Minister for Finance if it is still Government policy to allocate 55 per cent of national lottery funds to youth and sports organisations; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
43.
asked the Minister for Finance the profits from the national lottery to date; the profit which is available for distribution; and the way in which it is proposed to distribute these moneys.
49.
asked the Minister for Finance the way in which it is intended to allocate the moneys received through the national lottery; the names of the organisations, bodies and groups to which funds will be allocated; and when the funds will be received.
75.
andMr. Lowry asked the Minister for Finance the net figure accrued in the national lottery to date; the amount of the current fund which has been allocated; the bodies to which it will be allocated, the reason the distribution of the balance of the fund has been unduly delayed; and the criteria which will be used to determine successful applications.
81.
asked the Minister for Finance the way in which moneys from the national lottery are to be allocated; the amount which has been realised to date from the national lottery for each relevant month, giving a clear indication of the amount of interest involved and whether that is also to be allocated; and if he will adhere rigidly to the basis on which the legislation was set up, namely, that sport and the arts would be the beneficiaries.
82.
asked the Minister for Finance the net Exchequer revenue to date from the national lottery in excess of the 1987 budget projection; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
83.
asked the Minister for Finance when a decision will be made to allocate the current proceeds of the national lottery; the organisations which will benefit; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 6, 9, 11, 14, 20, 22, 31, 40, 43, 49, 75, 81, 82, 83 together. Total sales of lottery tickets to date amount to approximately £84 million.
Sales in each month have been:
|
£million |
|
|
March |
7.985 |
|
April |
13.121 |
|
May |
13.058 |
|
June |
9.368 |
|
July |
10.331 |
|
August |
10.337 |
|
September |
10.255 |
|
October |
9.515 |
|
Total |
83.970 |
Interest earned on moneys on deposit in the national lottery fund deposit account amounted to £920,706.55 up to the end of September 1987; this amount forms part of the national lottery fund's surplus for payment to the Exchequer and will be available for allocation to spending projects in due course.
The terms of the licence under which An Post National Lottery Company operate the lottery on the Minister's behalf envisaged that when the lottery was fully operational, its proceeds would break down as follows:
Prizes: 45-50 per cent
APNLC
—operating expenses: up to 18.65 per cent
—management fees: 1.1 per cent
Surplus paid over to the Exchequer 30.25-35.25 per cent
It is expected that the company will operate within these limits in 1987.
Prize expenses to date amount to approximately £36 million. Total operating costs incurred, including agents' commission and all start-up costs, amount to approximately £16 million.
The profits from the national lottery to date, which will be available for distribution and taking into account unclaimed prizes and other current liabilities, amount to approximately £32 million. The total surplus accruing to the Exchequer in 1987 is now estimated at £35 million — £28 million in excess of the projected target in the 1987 budget. The estimated surplus for 1988, as published in the 1988 Estimates volume, is £36.5 million.
The surplus which accumulates in the national lottery fund is taken in to the Exchequer as non-tax revenue. It is only taken in as it is needed for spending on approved programmes, and £5 million has been transferred to the Exchequer to date.
The allocation of funds to the different spending areas is decided by Government on the basis of the resources available and in the light of the requirements of the different programmes. It is not the practice to apply predetermined ratios when deciding the allocations.
Under the National Lottery Act, 1986, the lottery surplus may be applied for the purposes of sport and other recreation, national culture (including the Irish language) the arts and the health of the community, and such other purposes as the Government may determine from time to time. Last May the Government decided to include youth activities among the purposes for which lottery moneys may be applied. The Government have recently decided that amenity and welfare projects may also be funded from the lottery surplus. A notice to this effect will be published in Iris Oifigiúil.
Spending Ministers are responsible for the selection of individual projects within their own areas. When spending programmes have been approved the funds are paid out, as needed, from the national lottery subhead in the Finance Vote. The funds are transferred to suspense accounts operated by the spending Departments who are responsible for their administration. Detailed questions about the issue of grants to recipient bodies and the criteria used to determine successful applications should, therefore, be addressed to the Ministers concerned.
The Government announced the allocation of the first £7 million of the lottery proceeds on 12 May; £3.15 million was allocated for youth and sports projects, £1.75 million for arts, culture and the Irish language, and £2.1 million for projects in the health area.
The Government are now in the process of finalising their decisions on the allocation and distribution of resources for the remainder of 1987 and 1988. Allocations will be made to projects in the sports, youth, amenities, arts and culture, health and welfare and Irish language sector. Because of the amounts involved, the Government are particularly anxious to achieve the most equitable distribution of funds in line with the purposes for which the lottery was established. I expect to be in a position to make an announcement of detailed allocations in the next week or so.
It is not possible in practical terms to calculate the precise impact of the lottery on the finances of organisations claiming compensation for loss of revenue. However, the Government have taken steps to improve the position of lotteries operated by voluntary and charitable organisations by increasing substantially the prize limits for these lotteries.
It is, of course, open to voluntary and charitable organisations to apply to the Departments concerned for grants from the national lottery funds allocated to youth, sports, health and other areas and I would encourage them to do so.
The House will appreciate that we have a considerable number of questions here and many Deputies will be entitled to ask supplementaries. Deputies Noonan, Creed, Durkan, Higgins, Naughten, Deasy, McGinley, Barry and Shatter have questions down and they will get priority, but everybody else will get an opportunity of asking questions.
(Limerick East): I thank the Minister for a very full reply. I know many Deputies want to ask supplementaries. I want to explore one area and as the person who won this particular lottery and came out as number six I get first shot. Will the Minister inform us whether it is the Government's intention to use money from the lottery to substitute from revenue or borrowing in 1988 to fund projects which the Government would undertake anyway or is it the Government's intention to have a new set of projects in the appropriate areas which would be funded exclusively from the lottery?
I thank the Deputy for his kind words. The details are not decided fully in relation to how the money will be spent on specific projects. It is an unusual kind of exercise, particularly for this Government because we have spent a number of months curtailing expenditure and abolishing schemes, yet now we have to set our minds towards the allocation of these substantial resources arising from the success of the lottery. We will be very careful about how this money will be allocated. Without being specific but, at the same time, not trying to avoid the Deputy's question, it would not be our intention to substitute this expenditure for other expenditure in the 1988 programme. Most of it will be for new projects which would not otherwise have gone ahead.
(Limerick East): Can I take it that next week and again next year when the £36 million is being distributed there will be an added increment of activity in culture, art, sport, youth and health rather than the substitution of lottery money for revenue to fund existing projects?
What the Deputy said in the first part of his question is correct.
Can the Minister give any indication as to the proportion of grants which might be made available to various agencies on the basis of capital grant aid as opposed to grant aid for current expenditure purposes? Does the Minister envisage in the case of agencies which come within the ambit of various Government Departments, for instance, the Department of the Environment, allowing the grants to be distributed through their subagencies such as the local authorities?
The Government have to decide finally on the details but I am sure that some of the money can probably be spent in this way. We have added amenities for inclusion. Most of the amenities schemes are worked through the Department of the Environment and the local authorities. Any information regarding these projects would come through these channels. Where money is going towards amenities we would expect the local authorities to be involved as they have been up to now. As to whether the recipients would receive money towards capital or current expenditure, it could be either, depending on the decisions of the Government.
The original allocation to sport was to be 55 per cent, but the Minister announced last June that it was being reduced to 45 per cent and was to cover both youth and sport. Is it intended to adjust that figure upwards or downwards? It should preferably be adjusted upwards since there is no allocation in the Estimates for youth and sport and there is great anxiety among various organisations as to what the future holds. Their attention is focussed entirely on the lottery now. Will funds be available to enable them to continue with projects in hand and what percentage can they expect? Will it be further reduced or increased?
The percentages outlined by the previous Government and the present Government will change because of additional areas for consideration such as the amenities I have mentioned and social services. However, there is much more money to be spent than was envisaged at the beginning of the year. It has gone up from an anticipated £7 million at budget time to £35 million at this stage. Regarding the fact that there is no allocation in the 1988 Estimates for youth and sport in the Department of Education, it has been made quite clear that the funding will be coming from lottery sources. I do not know the details of the overall decisions the Government have to take in all areas but the Deputy can take it that the money for the area of youth and sport will be increased.
I want to ask the Minister about the procedures being adopted. Is he suggesting that questions about individual approved projects should be addressed to the individual Departments? Are the decisions being made in the Department of Finance? I have heard other replies which indicate that the decisions are being made by Government. Where does the accountability lie? How will we establish accountability? In relation to the publication next week of the sums from the lottery, will the replacement sums be identifiable as separate from the new funds? For example, the Arts Council had £1 million taken away and received £800,000 and they are expecting a sum of money which would make up the amount of the cut. This is terribly important.
It is terribly important to ask questions.
Will the replacement funds from the lottery be identifiable from the new start-up funds when they are published next week? Regarding the youth services and the Arts Council, the people knocked off the Estimates who will be getting replacement money, are they forever in the Las Vegas world of lottery or may they hope to return to the Estimates next year and in future years?
The Deputy misinterpreted what I said when I spoke about the issue of grants to recipient bodies and the criteria used to determine successful applications, saying that questions should be addressed to the Ministers concerned. I meant that questions in relation to youth and sport should be addressed to the Minister for Education when the Government's decisions are announced. Questions relating to the arts, culture and the Irish language should be addressed to the Taoiseach and Minister for the Gaeltacht. Where the area of health is concerned, questions should be addressed to the Minister for Health. Regarding the Deputy's questions about accountability, normal procedures will operate in whatever Department is spending the money. That is the reality. That means the Departments of Education, Health, the Gaeltacht and the Taoiseach, as well as the Department of the Environment, will be concerned with amenities. So far as any displacement of funds arises, they will be identifiable. As regards youth services, I am not clear what the Deputy was saying.
For the coming year——
Is the Deputy asking if forever more they will have to wait until the lottery funds are allocated to know what they are going to get?
Exactly.
We will take it one year at a time, I have to live one hour at a time at present. The Deputy can be assured that we will look after them.
We must recognise the tremendous success of the lottery and the many useful projects which will be grant aided in the coming 12 months. The Minister has outlined the way amenity schemes will be dealt with, with money coming to the local authorities through the Department, but what type of projects does he see being grant aided or supported under the heading "Sport"? In the health area, what projects will be funded?
I agree with Deputy Naughten when he says the lottery is a success. I take this opportunity to congratulate An Post for the success of this campaign and wish them well for the future. As I said, I am not trying to avoid giving a reply but until such time as the Government take the decisions on how the money will be spent under the various headings, I cannot be more specific.
Would the Minister confirm that at year end there will be a net Exchequer surrender of lottery funds of the order of £20 million?
What does the Deputy mean?
Despite the Minister's lengthy explanation to the House, I want him to tell us that the Exchequer will have on hands, unexpended, at year end £20 million, that the exercise will start in 1988 on the basis of an income of £36 million, that the purpose of the lottery is being vitiated in a major way, that so far about £5 million or £6 million has been spent and that the Minister will probably spend another £7 or £8 million by the year end? In effect, this money will be unexpended, surrendered and absorbed into net Exchequer receipts at the end of the year. Is that not the reality?
One has to wait until the end of the year before one can be specific.
There are only five or six weeks to go.
What I said in my reply was that the money is in a suspense account and only as it is allocated and required is it taken out of the account and given to the Department of Finance and the spending agencies concerned.
Does the Minister not accept that the Department of Finance, with the rigorous monitoring that has gone on in relation to monthly receipts, have ensured that that money has been transferred to the Exchequer account from An Post, that interest is accruing on that money at this stage, as conceded by the Minister, that by no stretch of the imagination can, at the maximum, a few million pounds be spent between now and the end of the year and that this will be reflected in next year's——
I must insist on a brief question.
Does the Minister agree that only £4 or £5 million of national lottery money has been spent?
I said £5 million.
The Minister will agree that with net Exchequer receipts of £36 million, at year end there will be £20 million in the Exchequer which will not be spent on health, sport, youth or any other area.
This is leading to argument.
If this money is not spent, it will not be in the Exchequer account. It will be in the lottery fund deposit account.
But it will not be spent.
Within the next week or so we will announce all the details which will include further expenditure allocations for 1987 and the total allocation for 1988.
Is the Minister seriously suggesting that about £30 million of lottery money will be spent and allocated between now and 31 December 1987?
He did not say that. He said 1988.
I do not believe him.
I did not say that. The Deputy was not listening.
The Minister will fund the Christmas bonus out of this money.
We will not.
This £20 million will be spent on the Christmas bonus.
Nonsense.
I assume the Minister recalls his party's very strong opposition to this Bill when it was introduced. I wonder if he can justify this stand since his opposition was based on the fact that the money raised by the lottery could be spent on general expenditure over and above youth and sport. How can he justify that principled opposition with what the Government are doing, which is precisely what they opposed less than two years ago, that is, using the money to make up shortfall in other areas? I cannot understand that and perhaps the Minister would tell us how he can square those two views. This appears to be a confidence trick.
I want to bring supplementaries on these questions to a close.
I have been hearing about these accusations of confidence tricks for quite some time. Has the Deputy nothing original to say? I am sick and tired listening to the old nonsense around this House for the last few years.
Stop the blustering. Answer the question. Can the Minister justify——
As I said in my reply:
Under the National Lottery Act, 1986, the lottery surplus may be applied for the purposes of sport and other recreation——
It did not include youth until I added it this year.
The Minister did not include amenities either.
I will come to that.
——national culture (including the Irish language) the arts and the health of the community, and such purposes as the Government may determine from time to time.... The Government have recently decided that amenity and welfare projects may also be funded from — the lottery surplus.
The Minister opposed that when in Opposition.
We had better not get into what the Deputy did or did not do when he was in Government. My record will be better than his.
We will see. This is a confidence trick.
I propoe to call Deputy Naughten and Deputy Mac-Dowell. Then I will call the next question.
(Limerick East): Does the special account mechanism for resources from the lottery enable the Minister to carry money over from 1987 to be expended in 1988 or does the money have to be returned to the Exchequer and general Government receipts at year end?
It is not taken from the account and given to Finance until it is required and then it is given to the spending agency. The money will be in the lottery fund deposit account until it is required and if there is any unexpended money there at the end of 1987, it will be available in 1988.
Has an allocation been made to carry out improvement works to Porthard church and burial grounds where Doughlas Hyde is buried. Has money been made available for this project and, if so, how much?
I would not have an idea but I am sure when allocations are being made under various headings the Deputy can make representations——
Is the Minister aware that an article appeared in the Roscommon Herald this week stating that moneys have been allocated and that a certain amount has been earmarked for this purpose?
Over the years I have been aware of a great deal of what has appeared in the Roscommon Herald, and I know some of it to be true and some to be false.
In other words, it may not be true?
The estimated figure of the proceeds from the sale of the tickets was to be £7 million and this would have yielded a total administrative outlay of £1.3 million or 18.56 per cent. Is that 18 per cent a straight line figure? Is £15 million the figure because sales have been so much greater? Will the Minister indicate whether there is a sliding scale? As the amount of sales go up the overheads, obviously, decline and how is it that because the lottery is a success an extra £14 million of administrative expenses comes into being? I am not trying to detract from the congratulating to those involved for doing well but will the Minister agree that it is unreasonable because it is a success that its cost should increase exponentially in that manner?
The Deputy would be correct if he had given the full story. That is not the full story. In my reply I said that the total operating costs incurred included agents' commissions. Obviously, as sales increase agents' commissions increase. If what the Deputy said was true it would have to be corrected.
Is there a straight line figure?
I would not like what the Deputy has said to detract from my congratulations to those involved.
Is the Minister aware that there was vigorous opposition to the Bill dealing with the lottery when it was debated in the House in June 1986 mainly from his side of the House on the basis that the entire proceeds were not going to sport? Will the Minister not agree that in his announcement today, and in the announcement made last June, we have departed from the original percentage of 55 per cent to sport? Will he agree that it could be as low as 5 per cent or 10 per cent now? Will the Minister agree that that is a violation of the entire spirit of the lottery and the spirit in which the Irish people have contributed to it so far?
I suggest that the Deputy should wait and see the allocations before he makes any wild accusations such as he has made. I might add that I must have been in the European Parliament on the days there was opposition to this measure.
I quoted the record for the Minister this week.
