asked the Minister for Justice if he will outline the circumstances in which the official prisoners' van assigned to Cork prison is used; if there has been any change in policy regarding the use of this vehicle since the ending of the prison officers' strike; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Cork Prison Service Transport.
6.
Depending on the circumstances, prison service transport, Garda transport or locally hired taxis are used to bring prisoners to courts, hospitals and other prisons. It is a matter for the governor of each institution to decide which type of transport should be used on each occasion, having regard to such matters as the level of security required, the cost, the staff and the type of transport actually available at the time.
I am satisfied that this policy, which is of long standing, is correct and there has been no change in it in Cork prison or elsewhere. It is, however, the case that the governor has, for some months now, been trying to keep to a minimum the number of long distance escorts done by the official transport, in order to keep within the available overtime allocation.
I wish to thank the Minister for his reply. Would he not agree that it is his concern when policy decisions are taken, either in the prisons or the Garda Síochána, that affect costs? I can outline to the Minister if he so wishes circumstances under which, since the settlement of the prison officers' strike, policy decision has altered. The van in Cork prison is no longer being used for long trips but taxis are now being used. Firstly, there is a danger from a security point of view. The van in Cork prison was specially fitted out for security reasons. There is a division between the cabin and the place where the prisoner is kept. There is a two-way radio in the van which can keep the van in contact with any prison in the country at any time. A taxi from Cork to Dublin costs in the region of £120 and on top of that waiting time has to be added on. The driver of the van is employed and paid a salary. The additional costs, allowing for overtime, diesel and subsistence, would be £66. The Minister will agree that tax would be paid on a portion of that £66 and the cost to the State in that case is far less. There has been a change in policy since the prison officers' strike and taxis are being used in lieu of the prison van. Would the Minister not agree that it should be his concern to see to it that, particularly from a security point of view, the prison van be used? Would he not agree, from a cost point of view and at a time when we are looking for savings, that the most effective use of the two vans in Cork prison should be made?
I want to make it very clear that the practice we are talking about of using taxis instead of prison vans on occasions is of long standing. I say that deliberately because I would not like the House or anybody to believe this practice has emerged only since the prison strike. I have been assured of this because I inquired specifically about this point. There has not been any change in this practice in Cork or anywhere else.
The governor decides the circumstances and the type of transport to be used to bring prisoners to court, to hospitals or to other prisons. Despite what the Deputy said about costings, I had costings prepared for him because I anticipated his question. I understand that when it is possible and, having due regard to the security element involved and when the governor is satisfied there is no security risk involved — believe it or not, there is a saving of £100 by using a taxi on a trip to Dublin rather than using a prison van. If the Deputy wishes, I can at some stage give him details of this saving. That figure of £100 can be substantiated because I asked for a specific assurance anticipating that the Deputy would ask that supplementary.
The driver gets £6 an hour, subsistence of £16, diesel costs £20——
Certainly not. As I said, there is a saving of £100 and I can have the actual information made available to the Deputy. There are two points I want to get across to the Deputy: the governor makes the decision having due regard to the circumstances of the case on the day, and having regard to security and the type of person involved. These are the prime considerations and costings come after them.
Would the Minister not agree it is very easy to check if I am right? There are two vans in Cork prison, one is one year old and the other is three years old. On one van there are 143,000 miles, roughly 50,000 miles a year, and on the second van there are 60,000 after one year, which would suggest the van was previously used for long runs. If the Minister checks the mileage, he will see that since the prison strike there is a deliberate policy against——
A very well informed Minister for Justice is giving the House a lot of information and I do not hear any questions.
We share experiences.
I beg your pardon.
I have not seen the Minister for a long time.
I was missed. I am terribly sorry I have such an effect on the Deputy that he even fell foul of the Chair.
The Chair was in a bad humour that night.
Having regard to the further information the Deputy volunteered, I will look into the matter and if anything appears to be wrong, I will gladly put it right. Again, I want to assure the House that I have been satisfied this is normal policy in all prisons and that the prison vans, even though they might not be on the long runs from Loughan House to Dublin are still in use in the city and are kept fairly busy. Of course the Deputy recognises the need for savings.