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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 Dec 1989

Vol. 394 No. 6

Firearms and Offensive Weapons Bill, 1989 [ Seanad ]: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

It is my pleasure to offer a few words of welcome to this Bill since I was one of the first people to raise this question in this House by way of parliamentary questions some five or six years ago when weapons such as cross-bows and various prehistoric weapons were being introduced into the country, firstly, in the pursuit of sport and, secondly, by young people who wanted to be seen to be macho and tough, and part of a new era and a bygone era. They felt they had to possess such weapons which were used on occasions in violent incidents. For that reason I should like to compliment the Minister on introducing the Bill because we cannot ignore such incidents.

We cannot allow the use of offensive weapons to continue. That is not acceptable to our citizens. We cannot give the impression that such offensive weapons are acceptable. Their use should not go unchallenged. There is great concern among all citizens about the growth in the use and carrying of those offensive weapons. Old people are frightened and young people have been the victims of threats by people carrying such weapons. Timid teenagers who are not part of the "in gangs" or the macho image feel vulnerable to attack and intimidation from young people carrying knives and other weapons. People in my constituency have expressed concern about the existence of crossbows and other offensive weapons. They have asked if the Government intend introducing legislation to regulate the manufacture and sale of such weapons. I am sure those people will welcome the Bill.

In the course of his speech the Minister referred to crossbows and the developments that have taken place in the production of such weapons in recent years. One never knows if a Bill of this type will be able to deal with further developments in the production of such weapons. The Minister should try to cover any developments that will take place. There is a fear that at some stage in the future similar weapons will be outside the scope of the Bill. Legislation should be thorough and cater for all eventualities.

There is a reference in the Bill to the carrying of offensive weapons with intent to cause injury. A weapon may be carried for defensive or offensive purposes. However, a person who carries a defensive weapon indirectly is encouraging his or her peers to do the same. Some young people going to a dance may feel intimidated and decide to carry a flick knife but that cannot be tolerated. If we did we would be encouraging others to carry them. We would not know where that would end. In the heat of an argument such offensive weapons could be used with disastrous consequences. The only way to deal with them is to prohibit them. There is no reason a person should carry a knuckleduster or a flick knife that has four or five variations. There is no reason a person should have a crossbow and arrows in the boot of a car or on a motorbike.

However, it is important to emphasise that it is the duty of the State to protect all members of the public, young and old. People walking down the street of any town or city during the day or at night should be free to do so without fear of an attack from any quarter. I was astonished to read in recent days of an horrific attack on a young person in this city. The newspaper described it as a vicious and unprovoked attack. The unfortunate young person was maimed in that attack. It may be said that if that young person was carrying a defensive weapon he would have suffered greater injury, but we must condemn such a savage attack in broad daylight by other young people. His attackers, who had malicious intent, were carrying offensive weapons and they caused serious injury to the young boy. If I was the parent of such a young person I would be slow to permit him to go outside the house on his own.

Where will it all end? We must ensure that we have a sufficient number of gardaí to prevent such incidents. We must eliminate the marauders and the predators. The sooner we do that the better. The best way to do it is to ensure that there is a Garda presence in all our streets. It is the Garda who can intimidate such young hooligans out of business. Those violent young people have no function on our streets. They roam with the intention of intimidating people, snatching handbags, knocking people down, opening car boots, breaking car windows or breaking into houses. They try to intimidate as many people as possible and we should not tolerate that.

The Firearms Act covers air guns and so on. The Minister should keep in mind that there is a possibility that weapons may be developed which will fall outside the scope of that Act and the Bill under discussion. We should ensure that there is no latitude for young thugs to carry out their acts of terrorism. The ownership of offensive weapons is an important element of the Bill. We should not tolerate the operation of a brokerage or people who make available to hooligans and professional or amateur criminals any offensive weapons. We should not tolerate those who manufacture, sell or hire offensive weapons. It is most reassuring that the Bill makes an attempt to put such people out of business and I hope it will be permanent. The only place where those weapons should be on display, with the exception of those places where they are used under supervision for sporting purposes, is in a museum and other such similar places where we go to see the weapons used by our forefathers when fighting wars in bygone years.

I have made reference to the supposed need to carry weapons. In my view there is no need to carry weapons and there is a responsibility on the State to ensure that the Garda Síochána are sufficiently well equipped to deal with them.

There is one other matter I would like to refer to, even though it does not relate directly to the Bill. Let me say this, and I hope some legislation will be introduced on this one also in the not too distant future, that some very large dogs are now being used by gangs of young people to intimidate other young people and the elderly in the pursuit of crimes of whatever kind. The time is fast approaching when we will have to seriously consider introducing legislation in an effort to curtail such activities. There are those who will say that certain species of dogs, such as guard dogs, are bred for a specific purpose and that these do not present a threat to nor interfere with people in their day to day lives. I am aware of a number of recent cases where young people carrying weapons had with them the type of mastiff I have in mind and used these animals with the sole purpose of achieving their objective which was to maim or cause injury, rob and intimidate the people they were after.

We will have to seriously consider whether we should introduce strict and rigid controls on who may own, lend or deal in such animals. It may be said that these are fine animals and are used for legitimate purposes but so are lions, tigers and various other animals. At one time I heard the ridiculous suggestion, I presume it was of a frivolous nature, that a pet lion be kept in a certain area. If we head down that road, of people wanting to be totally ridiculous, we will eventually go from the sublime to the ridiculous. The Minister might consider at a later stage introducing legislation in this area encompassing such controls.

In his speech, the Minister rightly said that the public should not be allowed to take the law into their own hands nor should they, in my opinion, consider it necessary to do so. Be that as it may, the number of break-ins and attempts to intimidate are obviously on the increase. Whether we like it or not, and this may be open to contradiction, the general public feel that if they are being intimidated in their own homes or subjected to a breakin by a marauder, they have the right to protect themselves. I am aware that this does not relate directly to the Bill but while on the one hand, I accept that the public cannot take the law into their own hands, at the same time I believe that any member of the public has the right to defend himself when under attack. This should be kept in mind in cases — this has been referred to by Deputy O'Dea — where the person under suspicion may be able to prove that he or she was simply trying to defend himself or herself.

Incidentally, a whole range of sprays and stun guns are now available on the market which could be regarded as either offensive or defensive weapons depending on the way they are used. Reference is made to these in the Bill. Technological developments proceed at a very fast pace and in order for us to control the use of these items it may be necessary to be far more specific on Committee Stage and to clearly define how far the Minister should go in limiting the use of these items.

In conclusion, this Bill is timely and is to be welcomed by all of us in this House. I hope it is sufficiently far-reaching to ensure it will still be effective some years hence and does not go out of date within a short period for the very reasons I have stated. There is a number of items we can deal with on Committee Stage but I hope we will reach the position following the enactment of this Bill where young people will be able to convene in a public place in the knowledge that no member of the group has access to weapons which are not acceptable in our society and that they can frequent such places without the fear and underlying worry of an unnecessary or unprovoked attack similar to the one I have referred as having taken place in this city during the past few weeks.

Like previous speakers, I also welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill and to congratulate the Minister, Deputy Burke, and his predecessor, Deputy Collins, who is now Minister for Foreign Affairs, for the work they have done in updating our criminal law.

This Bill has a two-fold purpose, namely, to bring crossbows and stun guns within the definition of firearm and to make it unlawful in specified circumstances to carry, or trade in, other dangerous and offensive weapons. In considering the criminal law, it is necessary to look at the position of the serious criminal on the one hand, the one who deliberately arms himself for the purpose of committing a serious offence, be it armed robbery, drug trafficking or personal assault, and on the other, the general need to control and have a body of legislation which regulates behaviour in our society.

This Bill is not, with perhaps rare exceptions, aimed at the serious criminal. It is designed to update and modernise an area of criminal law and introduce new safeguards which are becoming increasingly necessary in modern society. The vast majority of people go about their daily business without any involvement in serious criminal activity. It is suggested from time to time that we are a lawless society but these are totally unfounded. Crime is not out of control but despite this we have an average number of 30 cases per week of assault causing injury.

The crime figures as reported in the Garda Commissioner's annual report highlight a wide range of criminal activity. One area in particular needs to be referred to put these figures in perspective. Out of a total of 90,000 indictable crimes, some involve the unlawful taking of motor vehicles or the taking of items from motor vehicles. I understand the number of cases involving the taking of items amounts to 20,000. The amount of Garda time devoted to solving these crimes is enormous. Yet, what steps do motorists take to protect their vehicles and their valuables? One can go down any of our streets and see valuables left on display in cars, encouraging offenders. We do not insist on good quality locks on cars and almost any car key can open any car door in seconds. Car alarms frequently do not work or owners forget that they are switched on and alarms ring for a long time to such an extent that people now ignore them. This is an area that should be looked at with a view to saving the time of the Garda. We should play a more active role in reducing opportunities for crime, and we could do so in this area. This would give the Garda more time for basic policing duties and they could have a more visible role on the streets.

This Bill is very important in the context of recent developments at public events. It is refreshing that we are introducing these controls not having waited for a major disaster to occur first. This legislation is designed to prevent outbreaks of hooliganism similar to what occurred at events in Europe and America.

There is an acceptance that the law should be tightened to limit the availability, use and possession of offensive and potentially dangerous weapons. There has been a growing use of knives and other weapons in recent years to cause injury and death. We must reverse this trend before it grows to serious proportions.

Section 4 of the Bill deals with the extension of the definition of firearms to include an air gun, a crossbow and a stun gun. I am concerned that this extended definition may soon be inadequate. A stun gun is a weapon which inflicts an electric shock. Because of the speed of developments in modern technology there could soon be instruments available to cause other types of shock. Will the Minister consider whether he can take power under this Bill to extend the definition to cover offensive weapons which may come on the market in the future? Deputy Durkan also referred to this.

A crossbow is a dangerous weapon which can have legitimate sporting uses. I am not clear why there has to be a weight requirement. If the crossbow is offensive, why is there a restriction on its offensiveness by reference to weight? There must be some other way of dealing with the problem.

Are long bows excluded from the scope of the Bill because they have not been used in modern times in criminal activity? while they would be difficult to conceal and may be awkward in most situations they could be used in certain circumstances to intimidate people. While I do not want to see an extension of licensing beyond what is reasonable, could they not be included within the meaning of offensive weapons under section 8 of the Bill? Will the Minister consider if anything can be done to reduce the possibility of using the long bow illegally to intimidate people? It obviously will not be used in carrying out robberies as it is too awkward, but it could be used where there is time and space. The list of weapons which can be offensive in certain circumstances should be as comprehensive as possible and it should be possible for the Minister to add to it by the Minister making regulations as circumstances change.

Section 8 makes the possession of knives and other articles unlawful and subsection (2) refers to any other article made or adapted to cause injury or incapacity to a person, and the possession of such an item in any public place shall be an offence. There is no reference to otherwise lawful objects which may not be adapted in any way which could be used for unlawful purposes. What is the position where one or more of a gang of youths out at night have a lump hammer or a screw driver, implements which can be very offensive in certain circumstances? Indeed, a screwdriver is the most frequently used item used to secure unlawful entry to motor cars, yet the Garda can do nothing even when they know a person is carrying a screwdriver. Will this Bill change anything? I would like to hear the Minister's comments.

The question of imprisonment on conviction should concern all of us. It costs something in the region of £30,000 per annum to keep a person in prison, yet there are many in prison for activities which could hardly be regarded as posing a threat to the community, for example, for the non-payment of fines or debts. I am concerned about the release of prisoners whose sentences have not been fully served. While I would like to see a greater use of community service orders for instance I am not happy about prisoners being released without serving their sentences. I congratulate the Minister on his recent announcement that Wheatfield Prison will open next year. The opening of the prison will create an extra 200 jobs in the prison service and will provide 300 extra prison places. It will do a lot to allay public concern and worry about prisoners convicted of serious crimes being released without serving their sentences. We must get our priorities right. Some people are being detained for minor offences while people convicted of serious offences are being released early. It is important that the public are made aware that people who commit crime will have to face the full rigours of the law and serve their sentences.

The Oireachtas regularly introduces new legislation providing for new criminal offences. If the laws are to prove effective the criminal justice system must be capable of handling the volume of work. I am glad the Minister is taking urgent action to increase the presence of gardaí on the street. This is essential if the people are to have confidence in the system of law and order and know that the Government are concerned with the safety of the people. I welcome the decision to employ 250 clerical assistants to release trained gardaí for outdoor duties.

While the Minister has made considerable progress in introducing new legislation, there is still a lot of work to be done. I have spoken before of the need for a Dáil committee to revise criminal law. There is a large volume of criminal legislation dating back to the middle of the last century which needs to be updated, simplified and brought into line with current monetary values. A Dáil committee with adequate support staff would be an ideal vehicle for updating these laws. I realise that because of financial constraints it is not possible for the Minister to do what I wish, but he should keep the proposition under review. I compliment the Minister on the excellent job he is doing and for the way in which he is deciding his priorities for the good of the public.

I, like other speakers, wholeheartedly welcome this Bill. It is a measure that is long overdue. Unfortunately it is a necessary measure. In society today violence is glamourised on the television screens, in the cinemas and in every magazine whether directed towards adults or children. Legislation is long overdue and I congratulate the Minister on taking the initiative in coming up with a measure to ban stun guns, crossbows and other offensive weapons. "Other offensive weapons" covers a multitude. On Committee Stage this Bill will be given very close scrutiny because it is important that "other offensive weapons" should be looked at in detail. Violence has escalated in urban areas. Not only are lethal weapons — stun guns, crossbows and knives of all shapes and sizes — freely available, but the humble catapult which many of us as young people used innocently, has been defined as a deadly weapon when used with ballbearings, supposedly to kill vermin but it can be used very viciously.

Army surplus stores have been referred to this evening. They have proliferated. It is wrong to have balaclava helmets hanging outside shops for sale. Balaclavas are associated with the underworld and crime in general and it is incomprehensible that shops in our main streets sell these goods. The legitimate army surplus trade is fairly extensive. Many people buy army surplus for legitimate reasons such as camping and caravanning. However, side by side with such items, we see dangerous knives and weapons which should be completely banned from retail sale, or wholesale for that matter.

I am anxious that this Bill will get a speedy passage through the Dáil, having been scrutinised carefully by Members first. Public representatives have been aware for some time of the problems in this regard. Committees have been set up in various areas in an effort to combat crime, but it is very difficult for any public representative or anyone in authority to curb crime if weapons of this nature are glamorised on our streets or in our cinemas.

The Bill provides wide powers of examination and arrest for the Garda. This provision must be examined. In fairness to the Garda, they take tremendous risks when they apprehend anyone because not alone are the weapons we see in shops available, but screwdrivers, steel combs and so on are used by the common criminal and the garda takes his life in his hands when he tries to apprehend such persons.

The Bill contains positive elements which I welcome and support. Some parts of it require careful scrutiny, but generally I have to congratulate the Minister on introducing it. Our innocence is long gone and the Bill is a reaction to the society in which we live.

I welcome the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Bill, 1989, as most timely legislation the main purpose of which is to bring crossbows and stun guns within the definition of "firearms" in the context of the Firearms Acts, 1925 to 1971, and to make it unlawful in certain specified circumstances to carry or trade in other dangerous or offensive weapons.

Unfortunately, the society emerging is one where there is an increasing preponderance of carrying or owning firearms or offensive weapons. Of course, I do not refer specifically to firearms held under the appropriate licence arising out of the Firearms Acts, but for a variety of reasons individuals are to some extent arming themselves with offensive weapons in the belief that they are somehow safer or in a better position to defend themselves. For some time people have felt insecure about their personal safety or the safety and security of their own homes. This is very regrettable and needs to be dealt with as quickly as possible.

I am happy that in this Bill the present Government are tackling coherently at last the whole area of crime and lawlessness. For example, in 1990 it will cost £36.8 million to run the Garda and Prison Service. At this stage I compliment the Minister for Justice on his recently announced major crime fighting package for 1990. I welcome the fact that 250 civilian clerical staff are to be appointed to release gardaí from office work to work on crime prevention and detection. Very often as we go about our business as public representatives meeting with community organisations and other interested groups and discussing crime and lawlessness, remarks are made about the major waste of the valuable time of gardaí in dealing with clerical duties. The Minister's decision to appoint 250 clerical staff is a response to the calls that he has received from various groups around the country who raised the issue with all of us. It is well that our gardaí, who are trained and equipped to deal with crime prevention and detection, spend as much of their time in pursuit of that activity as possible rather than dealing with clerical work which can be dealt with efficiently by the sort of person the Minister now proposes to appoint.

I would like to see the Minister's move in this regard extended to the courts where, I am advised, the time of gardaí is taken up to a very great extent waiting for various cases in which they are involved to be called. If we achieve what the Minister is now clearly setting out to achieve in regard to the clerical duties of gardaí, we would release more gardaí for duty in the area they are best equipped to serve, that is, crime prevention and protection. The new training regime for Garda recruits is welcome. I am convinced it will enhance further the effectiveness of the gardaí serving their communities.

I would not like this opportunity to pass without complimenting sincerely all the members of the Garda Síochána for their outstanding contribution to crime prevention and detection. I am sure we all agree that their outstanding dedication to what is very often a difficult, onerous and sometimes dangerous task is evident and that the community at large owe a great deal to the continued commitment of the members of the Garda Síochána to their role and duty in serving the community.

The morale of the Garda Síochána is extremely important. This Bill is an indication of the Government's intent to strengthen as much as possible the hand of the Garda in dealing with difficulties and dangers. Its purpose is to impose legislation that will allow the gardaí to deal effectively with the type of circumstances it seeks to redress.

To some extent it is quite extraordinary that it has taken so long for legislation of this kind to reach the House. From all the contributions it is obvious that the Bill is long overdue, and recognised to be so. The Minister pointed out in his opening address that while the law has been strict about the possession of guns, there have been very few controls on the carrying of other offensive weapons such as knives and other dangerous articles. The Bill sets out to rectify this serious omission and must therefore be welcomed. The community at large will be safer because of it and the Bill will strengthen the hands of the gardaí. It is extraordinary to see the array of knives and other offensive weapons which are freely available to anyone who wishes to acquire them. These included knives, stun guns, machetes and electrical shock-transmitting devices of various kinds. All these weapons are fairly new arrivals but the problem is that they are so widely available. This legislation will tighten matters considerably. This is essential if we are to come to grips with this very serious problem in regard to personal safety.

There has been a tendency over the years, but particularly in recent times, for people to take the law into their own hands. To some extent one can understand their frustration in adopting this course which is due to the breakdown in some areas of law and order. It is not, however, a development that any of us here can welcome. I do not believe it is the proper solution to the maintenance of law and order. It is not right that people should arm themselves as a group and thereby seek to provide law and order for their community.

We have seen examples of this type of development in the recent past especially in some of the major urban areas. Laudable as the intention of these organisations may appear to be, very quickly they descend to lawlessness themselves. On occasion self-appointed groups who set out to take the law into their own hands have found themselves in court having broken the law. Our confidence must be placed in the gardaí whose duty it is to implement the law. No other self-appointed group of individuals ought to be allowed usurp the powers of the gardaí in this most important area. We can have no confidence in such groups and they should not be tolerated. Frequently they break the very law they set out to defend.

It is extraordinary to see so many young people carrying offensive weapons, not necessarily with the intention of using them. Once they are available, however, some incident or problem will arise which will invariably mean that the knife or other weapon will be used, often with tragic consequences. I am glad the Minister is dealing with this problem and taking account of the widespread worry among parents, teachers, social workers and other interested individuals and organisations. We have to deal with the problem where anybody can walk into certain shops and purchase these instruments, with no good intent in mind.

I wish to comment on some other areas of the Bill. Section 4 of Part II involves an extension of the legislation to include crossbows and stun guns. These implements are clearly defined but developments in these areas are rapid and legislation which seeks to name specific offensive weapons can soon be superseded by new inventions. I agree that the Minister should take to himself power to make regulations to include new weapons which may come on the market. The slingshot was like the catapult, but some very advanced designs of this type of weapon are available which are lethal when accurately used. There have been reports in other countries of the use of these weapons to devastating effect, frequently in breach of the law. The regulations should be framed in such a way as to include such weapons as they are developed.

Section 4 refers to the fact that there are many different types of crossbow. The old crossbow was a very simple affair and, unless very accurately used, not very dangerous. The type of crossbow now available varies in design and power and would hardly be recognised as a crossbow. In some situations it is as lethal as a deadly firearm and can be used with the same degree of accuracy because of its design and telescopic sights. Some are not crossbows in the strict sense since they are pistol-controlled. I wonder if this type of weapon is covered under section 4 and I bring the matter to the Minister's attention.

I now turn to the person who has an authorised firearm. Under section 7 the reckless discharge of firearms is referred to. This is most important because up to recent times those who held firearms by licence were inclined to feel that they had the right to use those firearms in their own defence or to make a point. I welcome the fact that section 7 deals with this matter.

Part III of the Bill sets out to deal with offensive weapons and the possession of knives and other articles. Reference is made to the folding pocket knife. As in the case of the crossbow, many different types of pocket knife are available. There will be great difficulty in achieving a precise definition of a folding pocket knife, because to my mind it is quite probable that unscrupulous manufacturers and others will try to circumvent the legislation by so designing a weapon as to fit within the terms of a folding pocket knife but still be lethal.

I welcome the Bill. I pay tribute to the Minister for bringing it forward. At the opening of the debate, the Minister indicated he was amenable to reasonable suggestions for improving the Bill and said he looked forward to co-operation with all interested parties and organisations.

Debate adjourned.
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