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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 21 Mar 1990

Vol. 397 No. 3

Defence (Amendment) Bill, 1990: Second Stage (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by the Minister for Defence, Deputy Lenihan, on Tuesday, 13 March 1990:
That the Bill be now read a Second Time.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1.
To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:
"Dáil Éireann declines to give the Bill a Second Reading until such time as the document entitledPermanent Defence Force — Representative Groups has been published generally and has been considered and debated by Dáil Éireann.”
—(Deputy Nealon.)

In view of the absence of up to date information regarding relationships between the Defence Forces and the Government and the determined refusal this morning to provide such information, I can only view the eleventh hour attempt at consultation with suspicion. I question the relevance of this legislation though at this moment I have no option but to address the Bill as it stands.

As a representative of the South Tipperary constituency living adjacent to Clonmel where there is a substantial presence of the Defence Forces, in Kickham Barracks, I am deeply interested in this Bill.

I take this opportunity to congratulate the 12th Infantry Batallion on their commitment and loyal service not just in their local area but internationally in peace-keeping duties over the years. Theirs is an honourable and admirable contribution. By their service they have earned for us as a nation much international praise and acclaim. I must therefore remind the Tánaiste that this Bill is addressed to a most reliable, dedicated and responsible section of our society who cannot either by their record or by the very nature of their occupation be ever regarded as selfish, irresponsible or untrustworthy citizens. The extent of our dependence on their work surely warrants a far more reasonable response from the Minister.

The Bill before us is to provide for the establishment of associations for the purpose of representing members of the Defence Forces on remuneration and such matters as may be prescribed by the Minister. We must remember that so great has been the dissatisfaction of the Defence Forces in the past couple of years on pay and conditions that in sheer desperation they have decided to snub the authorities and set up their own association, PDFORRA. One would have hoped that this Bill would have eased the unrest, the total dissatisfaction and the soured relationship between the Defence Forces and the Government. Unfortunately the Bill has done nothing in this regard; it has exacerbated the situation, leading to the present impasse and provides no hope at all of the future satisfactory and acceptable relationship.

The PDFORRA who were forced to publicly clamour for, beg for, and demand proper conditions and acceptable pay rates are now trodden on yet again by the total lack of recognition of their wishes, their opinions and their views on the establishment of their representative association. PDFORRA now have the support of more than 8,000 of the 11,000 NCOs and private soldiers and are preparing to hold their own democratic elections while the Minister for Defence claims his proposals for the representative structure in the Defence Forces meets all the demands of PDFORRA. Nevertheless there is a fundamental difference over consultation. A meagre attempt, apart from the 11th hour effort last night, was made by the Minister to provide consultations by the provision of a 50-page booklet to all the ranks of the Defence Forces. This is not consultation, merely information. The Minister should realise that consultation is necessary and desirable if a major rift is to be avoided. Unless some move is made soon to break the impasse there could be two sets of elections in the Defence Forces in the coming months with the distinct possibility of the whole affair deteriorating into an irredeemable state.

For these reasons I claim that this Bill is a lost opportunity to tackle and resolve a long-standing and bitter division which will have to be confronted ultimately. This Bill is an insult not only to the Defence Forces but to the Members of this House who are being asked to vote through a Bill without any knowledge of its scope or impact, and the Defence Forces are called upon to elect representatives to work in a totally unknown framework. Furthermore, if the recently circulated booklet is the basis of this framework, then ones fears and doubts are vindicated. It is unacceptable that a member cannot be deemed eligible for election unless his conduct rating is not less than good. Surely this leaves room for abuse and could be used to disqualify a potential candidate. It is potentially dangerous and should not in any circumstances be accepted. Further unacceptable sections include one that provides that a civilian who endeavours to persuade a member of the Defence Forces to join a trade union would be found guilty of an offence. This is a total infringement of the right to freedom of speech and is so extreme that this section can only be considered a nonsense.

Other areas of concern include the question of access to the media whereby all statements made by the representative body of the Defence Forces must be made at Army headquarter level. I would also worry about the provision that all meetings must be held within the military installations.

The Bill is far too restrictive and undemocratic. It gives the Minister total and absolute control over the Defence Forces and eliminates the right of members to be represented in an independent way. It is merely an attempt to railroad the constitutional rights of the members of the Defence Forces. I find it unusual that, though prepared to allow our soldiers to go out with guns and risk their lives, the Government do not trust them to form their own representative association without imposing ridiculous restrictions. Surely this is paternalism gone mad.

The success or failure of the proposed representative association depends on whether it is fair. Any structure which is not seen by the majority to be fair will not work. The structure being imposed without sufficient consultation or communication will not be fair and ultimately will not work. I am not satisfied that this Bill can provide the framework for an independent representative structure. Therefore, it is bitterly disappointing.

It is rather difficult now to respond to this Bill in the light of developments in the past 24 hours. One already found it sufficiently puzzling to deal with the reasons that a Bill as flawed as this one should have been advanced in the first place. More specifically, it seemed very difficult to consider this Bill in isolation from the document circularised by the Minister to the spokespersons of the various parties and permanent Defence Forces representative groups. One could only conclude that that document contained the essence of the regulations the Minister proposes to make. That document is not before the House for debate but it has been widely circulated within the Defence Forces. I do not know what its status is. When challenged on it by a number of Deputies the Minister seemed to suggest that it was an Army document distributed within the Defence Forces, apparently not necessarily having the imprimatur of his Department. That is the document from which the regulations will derive and it gives additional serious cause for concern about the nature and provisions of this Bill.

The introduction describes it as containing Government proposals.

That is right, but the Minister seemed to draw back from that when challenged by Deputy Nealon, Deputy McCartan and others. He seemed to suggest that the document was——

A basis for consultation.

I certainly welcome the fact that the Minister acknowledges the very serious case made for consultation. The case was made that consultation was a sine qua non.

At all stages I said it.

The Minister may well have said it but until he introduced the Second Stage of this Bill he did not recognise the existence of PDFORRA. No discussions took place between him and the organisation established to represent the members of the Defence Forces. That was the situation up to last night. If it means that even at the eleventh hour the Minister has been convinced as a result of contributions in the House that consultation ought to have taken place and must take place, especially having regard to the constitutional doubts which have been raised about the Bill, I welcome it.

I take from the Minister's remarks that the midnight discussions with two backbench Deputies in his party have his blessing or were, as reported in the news media this morning, instigated by the Minister. It is important that the Minister should address that point. Did he instigate the discussions that took place for some eleven hours last night or were Deputies Kitt and Hillery acting at their own behest? I can hardly think that they were when looking at the contributions made by these two Deputies to this debate.

I will confine myself to referring to the contribution by Deputy Kitt, the Daniel O'Donnell of the Fianna Fáil Party, who was obviously dispatched like Vera Lynn in wartime to sing the troops into harmony and agreement with the Minister. Deputy Kitt's contribution is extraordinary having regard to the fact that he is now the main bridgehead between the Department and the Minister on one hand and the 8,000 members of PDFORRA on the other hand. Deputy Kitt stated:

I listened carefully to Deputy McCartan when advocating the establishment of PDFORRA. I can only describe such an approach by an elected Member of Dáil Éireann as reckless and irresponsible.

This is from a man who apparently is the Minister's hope for successful consultations with PDFORRA, attacking Deputy McCartan for advocating, as he has done from the very beginning, the establishment of PDFORRA. Deputy Kitt continued:

In effect, the organisation of the Defence Forces is a matter for Government.

He continued in the course of his contribution to support entirely the stand taken by the Government, right up to the stage of recent answers in the House by the Minister of State to the effect that to recognise PDFORRA would be in conflict with traditional Army procedure. Deputy Kitt added:

This is not just another issue, it is different and unique. I had hoped that they would have waited for the Minister's proposal, allowed this legislation to evolve and the democratic process to unfold. Careful consideration was required to provide for the setting up of these associations to give a voice to the members of the Defence Forces while not compromising the essential military systems of command and control. The Minister got the right balance.

He went on to say:

Deputy McCartan is a spokesman for the PDFORRA and he spoke today on their behalf. He said he would wait for the outcome of the Minister's deliberations but I find it difficult to take that kind of thing when we are dealing with such a delicate and sensitive matter. The same Defence Forces' representatives appreciate that one should not be involved in a destructive manner in this debate and it is difficult to accept that a TD would approach such a debate with this attitude.

This is extraordinary coming from a TD who lost his beauty sleep last night in trying to bail the Minister out of a situation which everyone is surprised the Minister got into in the first place. He inherited from his predecessor an extremely difficult issue — perhaps a difficult portfolio, having regard to the way this portfolio has been treated by successive Ministers through the years. Most of us who have a very high regard for the Minister's particular brand of conciliation and reconciliation did not anticipate that he would introduce to this House legislation which has compounded the errors of his predecessor. On all sides of the House there is surprise that the Minister should have introduced such a shoddy, fatally flawed, provocative Bill that seems to make the situation worse and diminish the already low morale of the Defence Forces.

I speak from some direct experience of this. It is not that I have a great knowledge of the Defence portfolio and it is not that I have taken the kind of interest I should in the welfare of the Defence Forces until recent years, in common, I suspect, with a great many Members of this House. I had the opportunity a couple of weeks ago to attend at GHQ and at Collins Barracks with my colleagues in The Workers' Party to discuss some of these issues and to get a briefing, as we did very effectively and efficiently. I thank the Minister for any involvement he may have had in arranging it. I found it most interesting in terms of the view the Army have of themselves, their role, functions, traditions, history and aspirations for the future. I also had an opportunity to talk directly to some of the enlisted personnel and obviously the issue for discussion was the current dispute with the Minister and the Department.

Even among the Defence personnel themselves — and they do not claim to be particularly knowledgeable about politics or day to day political events and they certainly do not publicly proffer any view on them — they expected that the present incumbent, the Minister, would have dealt with this matter and the mess he inherited in a more enlightened and conciliatory fashion. They are genuinely appalled that the Minister would have sought to introduce a Bill which, as I interpret it, effectively seeks to suppress the organisation already in existence. I can read it in no other way. As I understand it, the organisation PDFORRA born in the circumstances we all know about is an illegal organisation under this Bill. There is no other way one can read the limitations that are placed in the Bill. Section 2 (4) reads: "A member shall not become or be a member of a trade union, or of any other body... which seeks to influence or otherwise be concerned with the remuneration or other conditions of service of members". That can only mean that if the very large or predominant number of the Defence Forces who are currently in an organisation other than the organisation the Minister proposes to set up——

I do not propose to set up anything.

He has introduced enabling legislation to allow——

It is to protect the body we are talking about. Has the Deputy not the subtlety to see that? The whole purpose of this Bill is to protect the body which will be elected to represent them.

They do not see it that way. The Minister may not know that I have followed his subtleties for years with great admiration.

I can assure the Deputy that that is the situation.

I must confess to being a bit obscure on this inasmuch as I understand that this is legislation that enables a representative association to come into being.

I am saying there is an organisation in being which has the allegiance of the vast majority of the enlisted personnel and it seems section 2 (4) makes them illegal.

They will be the elected body if they represent that percentage of men. Does the Deputy see the logic?

This is a major breakthrough, if the Minister's subtlety is not too much for me, but if I take that at face value and if he is saying that——

I have been saying that all the time.

PDFORRA, called whatever, can become the representative association——

Deputy Rabbitte should continue to address the Chair. He should not continue to address the Minister. I get the impression that he wants to savour further his indulgence in what he has described as the Minister's subtleties and which are not in accordance with Standing Orders, unfortunately. Deputy Rabbitte must address the Chair.

I apologise, but I think we were making some progress there——

That is the score.

——in terms of enabling this side of the House to understand where precisely we stand following last night's events. I interpret——

With your indulgence, we have had enough of the alleged cúirt an mheán oíche. There is no reference to it in the legislation. The Chair is not aware of anything in the legislation which would suggest that we should continue repeating what might have happened in a cúirt an mheán oíche.

I saw Deputy Kitt as representing the country and western wing rather than the Merriman tradition.

Deputy Rabbitte, without interruption.

I take your point. I saw a splinter of light there in the sense that the Minister now seems to be saying that it is possible for PDFORRA to emerge as the representative association after this Bill is enacted whatever the eventual form will be. If that is the case it is very welcome, but we will require a great deal more detail from the Minister explaining precisely how that will be allowed to come about.

We had some dispute about what kind of vote and so on already, and we had the interpretation put on section 2 (4) that PDFORRA are illegal as they stand at the moment. If the Minister can address that issue——

——when he is summing up some progress will have been made. It is surprising that this Bill should have been fathered by the present Minister, because of its inadequacies and the provocation which are completely unnecessary because they curtail the rights of the association. It is not as if we did not have a precedent in the direct security area in this State — the Garda Síochána Representative Body.

It is on all fours with that; it is exactly the same.

There is no curtailment of a right of association on the Garda Síochána Representative Body in the manner envisaged here.

There is or another one which is being set up. The Garda Síochána Representative Body are to be protected just as this body will be protected. Does the Deputy not see that?

I had the opportunity only a few weeks ago to speak to the Civil and Public Services Association, the IBOA and the Garda Sergeants Association. They combined for common purposes in terms of negotiating with the Minister for Labour or the Minister for the Public Service, as the case may be——

This is different.

——on matters they have in common. This Bill seems to prevent PDFORRA, or whatever they will be called, from so doing. If the Minister is saying there is no such prohibition, he will have to bring forward an amendment——

——because, as the Bill reads at the moment, such right of association is denied. That is regrettable.

This is designed to protect the body, not to impose anything.

I am somewhat confused. We are all agreed on what is desirable, including the Minister, but it is not in accord with what is written in the Bill, which is the only thing I can go on. That is the difficulty. It is not that I am disputing the Minister's word or refusing to accept what he is advancing, it is just that unless the Minister, as a result of a cúirt an mheán oíche brings forward amendments to change this, it is very difficult to accept that anything is changed. The situation is exacerbated by the fact that this document Permanent Defence Force Representative Groups, is especially worrying because it predicts the form the regulations the Minister will bring in will take.

The usual procedure in terms of regulations means that this House will have very little say about the content of those regulations. The only document of which I know that can give us any inkling as to what the nature of the regulations will be, or what direction they will take, is the document to which I referred. I still cannot believe, having regard to the manner in which it was distributed, and its terms, that the Minister would disown it and, therefore, it is a cause for concern that the regulations will be of such a restrictive nature that they will only exacerbate the provisions in the Bill. The document is roughly equivalent to what the Minister has in mind in terms of draft regulations and it will then be too late for this House to effectively do anything about it.

Consultations will have taken place with the elected representatives.

I would be glad to know if the Minister, or officials in his Department, intend to have direct consultations and negotiations, or will they be conducted at arms length by available backbench Deputies?

I said in my speech on Second Stage that full consultations would take place.

As I understand it, not just the two backbench Deputies concerned——

Whoever they may be, they will not be consulted during Deputy Rabbitte's contribution on Second Stage. Could we agree to finalise this dialogue between Deputy Rabbitte and the Minister and proceed?

I am trying to be helpful.

I think he helps too much.

The nub of the point is that no backbench Deputies are charged with the responsibility to engage in negotiations with the Defence Forces or, indeed, with any other section of the public or security services. Will the Minister assure the House that from now on negotiations will be conducted directly by him or under the aegis of his Department?

Yes, after the election, as I said in my opening speech.

After the election is not really the same thing because the shape of the organisation will be determined by the consultations and negotiations which take place in advance of it being set up. It is not just the question of the electoral system used to elect this organisation which is at issue, there are many other issues involved, including the scope and range of the association.

The mandate and the scope are common case.

That may be so, but I still do not see a provision for a secretariat and general secretary. There is no commitment that this will take place. For example, as I understand it from the document, the Minister is talking about more than two associations. In the discussions which I had last week the enlisted personnel expressed a clear preference for only two.

I will be saying that tonight. It is a discussion point.

I welcome the Minister's amenability in relation to this matter and I look forward to it being reflected in the House in a fashion that gives effect to his good intentions in the matter but I am confused as to why he did not do it in the first place.

I did last week, it is in my Second Stage speech.

It is not.

We are still dealing with this legislation and in that respect nothing has been changed. The agreed statement last night refers to the fact that "talks will include the structures into which members will be elected and the means whereby open and honest consultation can take place with all interested parties". I can only read that as meaning that those discussions will take place in advance of a ballot, not after.

The Deputy can take it that it means from now on.

I hope the Minister is not inadvertently already disowning the products of the all-night labours of Deputies Kitt and Hillery.

I am not.

It is clearly in this statement that these discussions will take place in advance and will include the structures as well as the methods of election and so on. It is important that the Minister——

We will have to clarify that for the purposes of the election and we will have to know into what structures they are voting. That is obvious.

It is obvious, but it is not in the terms of the legislation. Like every Deputy in the House, I should like to pay tribute to the manner in which the Army have carried out their duties since the early days of turmoil and the foundation of the State and to the manner in which they have done the nation proud in their peace-keeping duties abroad. I should also like to pay tribute to the role in these discussions played by the National Army Spouses' Association. It is regrettable that things should have come to the stage where it was necessary for Army spouses to go out on the streets to canvass and lobby Members of this House, to picket the House and generally to perform the representative role which their menfolk were prevented from doing.

Everybody acknowledges that Defence has been the cinderella Department but that does not excuse the fact that the last two Governments, in particular, allowed the morale of the Defence Forces to sink to such a low ebb. Members of the Defence Forces generally have a low rating in the eyes of the public and this is resented by their professional members. Many members of the public see them as having a role to play in times of aid to the civil power, in times of disaster, when they have to clear snow off our streets or carry out essential duties during strikes by a decision of the Government. As a trade union official I know how unpalatable it must be for members of the Defence Forces who come from similar backgrounds and areas of the city and other parts of the country having to become involved in essential duties during a trade dispute without rancour between themselves and the official trade union movement. It is a tremendous tribute to the Defence Forces and to the manner in which they carry out their duties and show their loyalty to the State. It is regrettable in the extreme that they should have been driven as a result of their pay levels and other conditions to having their wives campaign for them on the streets of this city and elsewhere.

It is especially excruciating for a single member of the Defence Forces, who subsequently gets married and starts to raise a family, to discover that he and his family have to exist on the kind of pay which he currently receives. I suggest that every Deputy has had representations from Army spouses about this. I know that that some members have been threatened with repossession of their homes by the Housing Finance Agency as a result of being unable to repay mortgages. Indeed, some members of the Defence Forces qualify for family income supplement. Some members work side by side with members of the Garda in extremely difficult circumstances but are treated differently, not only in terms of pay but in the conditions that go with certain stints of duty.

Members of the Defence Forces have played a very laudable role in terms of Border duties over recent years but the only response from the House has been to discuss a Bill which seeks to make illegal the organisation which they themselves have founded to represent them in matters of pay and conditions.

It is fitting that we in this House should at all times seek to support the people who strengthen the institutions of our State. The last line of defence any Government have in upholding order in the State is the Army. I want to refer briefly to the important role the Army in this country have played in international activity over the last number of years and briefly sketch some of their history. The peace-keeping activities in which the Defence Forces have been very much involved go back to 1960 in the Congo where the mandate was to maintain peace. This was probably the toughest mandate ever given to a United Nations force. Between 1964 and 1973 our involvement in Cyprus was well recognised and there is still a small presence of 12 soldiers from Ireland in that area. In the Sinai desert in 1973 we had a limited peace-keeping role when there was an outbreak of violence in that area. In recent times the Defence Forces have played a great role in regard to security measures and assisting the Garda in their role regarding Northern Ireland.

In 1978 our Defence Forces became involved in UNIFIL in Lebanon and, as Deputies know, the soldiers rotate to and from that country every six months. The Irish Defence Forces have built up a tremendous reputation in peace-keeping activities, particularly in the Middle East. This was best exemplified in recent times by the Arab community who acknowledged the tremendous contribution the Irish contingent are making. Some time ago, when Irish soldiers came under fire, there was a threat to the involvement of the Irish Defence Forces in UNIFIL in the future. The Arab community made representations to the Irish Government and to the commanders of UNIFIL to ensure that the Irish presence continued. I would suggest that the contribution to international peace, and to the United Nations, in various parts of the world is the strongest motivating factor of any Defence Force.

I am glad that when the Defence Forces came under fire in 1989 the Government agreed to continue our involvement even in the light of loss of life and of serious pressure being put on them because of indiscriminate action by a number of groups in the Middle East. Our involvement places the country in a good light in the international community. The Irish Defence Forces, particularly under UNIFIL, have helped to reconstruct communities. They have a tremendous stabilising effect in the local area in which they are involved but they do much more than just peace-keeping. They assist in bringing local communities together particularly in the Middle East. They are involved in dispensing medical aid and in assisting communities to protect their schools from attack; they protect communities from being shot at, particularly by the South Lebanese Army in the Middle Eastern area. They have protected schools and children admirably in recent times. The local communities in response, recognise their involvement and have come to accept that the protection of their children from the threat of guerrilla activity has become part of the way of life at present.

The disadvantage of our involvement is that many Army personnel are forced to go to places like Lebanon due to their frustration at the low level of Army pay. When you discuss their financial situation with Army personnel, many of them readily admit that they seek to go on international peace-keeping duties because of the inadequate level of remuneration at home. It must be recognised, whether people like it or not, that pay is a contributory factor in people wanting to go to those areas. That is a fact of life. The Government could have saved our Army much embarrassment if, around the time they accepted the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989, the Minister for Defence was able to bring about a successful end to negotiations on Army pay instead of bringing the wives of Army personnel onto the streets. That was regrettable and was a low point in the development of our Defence Forces.

In the course of his remarks the Minister referred to a document that was sent to the various representative groups entitled Permanent Defence Force Representative Groups. He indicated that this is a document from the Chief of Staff. In the opening paragraph, headed Consultation and Representation: Government Proposal, the Chief of Staff indicated that: “The documents accompanying this letter set out the Government's proposals as issued by direction of An Tánaiste for a system of consultation and representation for all ranks of the Defence Forces”. That is not a letter from the Chief of Staff; it is a letter from the Minister for Defence, through the Chief of Staff, to the various Army personnel indicating what the Government proposals are.

Proposals for consultation.

The Minister has not consulted anybody up to now.

That is wrong.

On 12 March 1990, in a letter to the Fine Gael spokesman on Defence, Deputy Nealon, in which was enclosed a copy of the document to which I have referred, which was issued through the Chief of Staff to all members of the Permanent Defence Forces, the Minister stated: "...which outlines the Government's proposals for the establishment of a representative structure". That clearly indicates that the Minister did not consult with the permanent Defence Forces but issued Government proposals in advance of any consultation taking place.

That is just not true.

I have the evidence.

Whatever the worries, the fact is that they are very good proposals for discussion, prepared by the Army general staff at headquarters. The document is a basis for consultation and discussion which I hope will prove fruitful. I am going 95 per cent of the way with what PDFORRA want and that document goes 95 per cent of the way with what they want. There are one or two differences within it but they can be ironed out by discussion and consultation. I have said that many times.

The Minister will have to accept that he has had no discussion or consultation with the Permanent Defence Forces up to now.

I have had discussions with them months ago.

The Minister has issued Government proposals which are a fait accompli as far as this legislation is concerned. None of the proposals outlined in the Minister's letter and none of the proposals from the Permanent Defence Forces has been enshrined in the legislation that we are discussing.

That will be part of the regulations. I have explained that already.

The fact is that no consultation has taken place. Through various electoral means you are seeking to set up a structure in advance of any consultation taking place on the Government proposals.

Deputy Hogan appreciates that by the use of the word "you" he is attributing that to the Chair, but the Chair is not setting up anything.

The Minister is seeking to establish structures in the Army without any consultation whatsoever as regards what are being set up to do. The Minister will have to accept that it is crazy — I use the word advisedly — to have elections for some representative group enshrined in legislation, established by Statute, when these people do not know the terms of reference under which they are being elected. It would be very wise if the Minister, in the course of his remarks this evening, would outline what amendments he will be introducing to enshrine in the legislation the precise terms of reference under which the elections will be held.

I already did that on Second Stage, but I will repeat it again.

The Minister would want to outline it a little more clearly. He has gone some way towards forcing elections on Army personnel, as I have said, with no say or direction and he has advised that they should meet every two months. Many of the Army personnel will wonder what role they should adopt if the direction is not given in the legislation. I look forward to clarification on that issue later in the debate. As Deputy Rabbitte has said, consultation after elections is certainly no substitute for hard political action. The Minister should set out, by consultation, in advance of elections what he expects the Permanent Defence Forces to do.

I am disappointed that there is no clear recognition that this new body will have the same professional approach as other representative associations involved in security aspects of the State, such as the Garda. There is no provision for full-time staff in the establishment of this organisation. On a parochial note, I am disappointed that under the proposals regarding officers' representatives set out by the Minister for Defence, no mention has been made of a representative of officer rank from James Stephens Barracks in Kilkenny, my own constituency. That is probably an oversight and something that I hope will be rectified in the course of the deliberations on this legislation. If the higher ranks of the Army are agreeable to the Government proposals as outlined, I think it would be fair to say, that they are out of touch with the reality of how privates and officers on the ground feel, that they have no involvement with the Gleeson Committee who are reporting on the various issues that have arisen over the past few months on pay and conditions.

I think it would have been wiser if the Minister had declined to publish the legislation on the Defence Forces until the Gleeson report had been published. Part of the problems, the lack of consultation and the confusion that has arisen, could have been eliminated if the Gleeson Committee which the Minister had established were in a position to give their views on the problems of pay and conditions in the Army and throughout the Defence Forces. I presume that many of the recommendations they will be making in due course could be enshrined in the legislation which will go through the Oireachtas.

I suggest the Gleeson Committee will not be too complimentary on the attitude of the Minister and of the Government to the problem of pay in the Army. The Minister is seeking to set up a permanent Defence Force representative association under the Defence (Amendment) Bill in advance of criticism which he may get from the Gleeson report for not having done so until now. The Minister may be jumping the gun in relation to many of the important recommendations that the Gleeson report will make.

The Bill as drafted, at present will not assist officers in relation to pay and conditions. I hope that the various special pay awards which were announced in December 1988 and which have yet to be completely implemented will not be the precedent for the inaction and sleight-of-hand in making a public relations stunt out of the very serious issue at the time. There is great unrest and dissatisfaction in Army circles in the way the special award is being implemented and the failure to implement it in full even at this stage. I regret that Army personnel will have to go through various channels in order to have the Department of Defence deal with pay and conditions. I suggest to the Minister that any Army officer or private should be able to get in touch directly with the Department of Defence in regard to pay and conditions rather than having to use cumbersome bureaucratic machinery to resolve such problems. We should not establish wholesale bureaucracy in order to prevent people getting information on their pay and conditions. We have a precedent for this in the Department of Justice and I think similar facilities should be afforded to Army personnel.

I am very anxious to know, and perhaps the Minister could refer to this in summing up, his policy with regard to promotions and overseas service. I hope the Minister will be able to clarify what contribution the new structures will make to promotions, overseas service and conditions.

As I said earlier, discussions must take place in advance of elections for the new structures that the Minister proposes to put in place. If, after the elections, there is disagreement between the Minister and the Defence Forces, will he consider submitting that disagreement to conciliation and arbitration? If the Minister is agreeable to do that, why not include the procedure for binding conciliation and arbitration in legislation? I hope the Minister will respond positively to this point. I call on the Minister at this late stage to consult with the various ad hoc representative groups at present established in the Army and Defence Forces and avert further disagreement and embarrassment in relation to this matter. In the context of discussions and consultations in advance of the elections I hope the Minister will be able to resolve any outstanding differences he has with PDFORRA of any other representative groups that he will meet from time to time.

I have no difference with them.

I am delighted to have the opportunity to say a few words on this very important Bill. Over the past number of years members of the Defence Forces have expressed their concern about the fact that they have not got a representative body such as the Garda Síochána have. However I have to take umbrage at some of the comments made by members of the Opposition who have given the impression that this whole question has only arisen in the past 18 months to two years.

It is only fair to put on the record that in the period 1983-87, during the term of the Fine Gael and Labour Coalition Government, little progress was made in setting up democratic structures by such progressive-minded individuals. There is a need in this day and age for a representative association in the Army so that members of the Army can discuss their problems with the powers that be. The Army, Navy and Air Force are unique as they are the protectors of society, and their position is not analogous to the workforce in general. Therefore we would have to look at the setting up of associations in a different way from that in which we look at the unions in the normally accepted sense. This has been a difficulty over the years in the setting up of representative associations in the Defence Forces.

When we came back to power — and the Minister has made this clear, but some members of the Opposition have not been listening to what he has said — he and the Government saw the need for a change in the treatment of the Defence Forces. The Taoiseach announced two major developments in July last: the setting up of an independent commission to look at the question of remuneration and conditions of service — and I understand the Commission are due to report in June of this year; the establishment of a new structure, and this is what the Bill refers to. PDFORRA which is an ad hoc institution formed by the Defence Forces is a good base for the new representative associations. One of the problems they face at present is that effectively they are nothing more than a talking shop and have no legal basis. I understand that the representatives of PDFORRA, who will stand for election, will be involved in the drawing up of regulations. I also hope that PDFORRA will become a representative body to the benefit of the members of the Defence Forces.

What I cannot accept are attempts by members of the Opposition parties to spout misinformation. In recent days they have attempted to mislead the public about what the Government intend doing. It is unacceptable that the so-called responsible Opposition should attempt to misinform the general public and the Defence Forces about what the Minister is attempting to do.

I resent that statement.

This is the first time any Government have attempted to establish a responsible association for the members of the Army, of the Navy and of the Air Force and I commend the Minister and the Government for taking this very important step. It is important to state also that a fear is being put into the wives of Defence Forces personnel that it is quite likely they will be banned if there is an association such as NASA but this is far from the truth. Their association may continue in existence if they feel this is necessary.

Why, then, is there a proposal to delete it?

We can deal with that matter on Committee Stage.

That is not even mentioned in the Bill. If the Deputy will listen the Minister will explain to him what exactly is contained in the Bill. He should not go in for point scoring with half truths. I commend this Bill to the House and I have no doubt that the Minister when replying later this evening will put the record straight and clear up any doubts the Opposition parties may have.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Éinne a bhí anseo ar maidin, beidh a fhios aige go raibh rí-rá agus ruaille buaille ann, ach ní raibh an rí-rá ar siúl toisc go raibh rí-rá ag teastáil ón taobh seo. Tá an Bille seo an-tábhachtach agus tá an-suim ag na Teachtaíann. B'fhéidir, mar sin, go gceapfaidh daoine ar fud na tíre nuair a chloiseann siad ar an raidió go raibh raic sa Dáil, nach raibh ann ach raic agus spórt arís, ach ní mar sin atá an cás ar chor ar bith. Ba mhaith liomsa mo chúpla focal a rá faoin mBille seo. Tá trua agam don Aire go bhfuil air fanacht anseo ag éisteacht linn, ach, if you enlist you must soldier, is dócha, agus tá sin an-oiriúnach don Bhille. Mar sin, ní bheidh mé rófhada, agus beidh sos ag an Aire.

Could I first take up a number of the points made by the previous speaker, Deputy Ahern, about misrepresentation. At its best the Bill is rather woolly. It is also enabling legislation. I am aware from radio reports of the marathon session which took place last night and into the early hours of this morning. However, I have to admit that I have not read the newspapers. Like all other hardworking Deputies in this House I do not get the opportunity to listen to the radio and I am not aware of what may have been said today. I would agree that it would have been of help if the Minister had made a statement at the beginning of this debate today and clarified what exactly is going on. I, for one, do not know what is going on and some of the things I may speak about here may have been thrown out or accepted last night. Without putting the blame on anyone, though the buck stops with the Minister, we should be told what is going on.

I pay tribute to the Army who down through the years have stood by this country. They have always been available and any time a problem arose, be it flooding, fire, a disaster or whatever, they were asked to step into the breach. They have always done so willingly. They have also given of their services abroad and some have paid the ultimate price. We are all very proud of the Army but pride in itself is not enough. We have to make sure that they get a fair crack of the whip. The fact that the wives of some Army personnel played such a leading role prior to the election — some of them even stood for election — is an indication things were not going well in the Army. It is good that legislation is being introduced, whether it is the correct one or not I do not know at this stage. From the foundation of the State we have always had their support and we should do nothing that would result in our losing that support. The Minister indicated earlier that he is holding discussions but it does not appear that these discussions are proving very satisfactory from the point of view of Army personnel.

We cannot expect Army personnel to work for a pittance. I believe that their claim for parity is genuine. I also do not know how we can expect to maintain standards given the fact that education has improved. Many moons ago people with a low standard of education could get into the Army but the entry qualifications have risen as the standard of education has risen. If we want to attract people into the Army we will have to make it worth their while. As I said, we cannot expect them to work for a pittance; if we do we will not get people of the right calibre, and we do not want that.

I would like to highlight one of the cribs of the Army which may or may not have been referred to. Army personnel in the Curragh have full medical facilities free of charge but that is not the case for those who live at home. While this aspect may not come within the ambit of this Bill, the Minister should take a look at it. This is a longstanding grievance but it can be rectified at little cost. The principle is more important than anything else.

Section 4 of the Bill deals with members on active service. I am sure the Minister will clarify what is intended later but that section fascinates me. It reads as follows:

an association shall not represent, or have as a member of any governing or other body or committee of the association, a member who is on active service.

I always thought that the members of the Army were on active service but perhaps there is a special definition of that term.

Section 5, which may be introduced in two months' time, contains the word, "may", in three places. It states that the Minister may provide by regulations that an association for members of a specified rank or ranks of the Defence Forces may represent such members serving outside the State and concludes with the following words, "as may be specified in the regulations". I do not know if the wording was prepared by senior civil servants or by the parliamentary draftsman, but I suggest that the word "will" should be used in its place. We must bear in mind that the Minister may, if he so wishes, not do anything. It does not make sense to include the word "may".

Section 6 is the type of provision that makes one worry in a democracy like ours. I am worried about what we will finish up with. It states:

(1) A person who is subject to military law shall neither endeavour to persuade nor conspire with any other person to endeavour to persuade a member to join a trade union or other body (other than an association) referred to in section 2 (4) of this Act.

(2) A person who is not subject to military law who endeavours to persuade or conspires with any other person to endeavour to persuade a member to join a trade union or other body (other than an association) aforesaid shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable to the penalties provided for a contravention of section 257 of the Principal Act.

The punishment under that section is quite heavy. Will the Minister accept that the section leaves the door open to all types of threats and fears? A politician who in discussions with a member of the Defence Forces may suggest that he or she is entitled to be represented may find himself or herself having to serve a sentence in goal. The Minister should explain that provision in the course of his reply. It is my hope that it does not have the serious connotations that many people have taken out of it. If it has, we are doing away with democracy.

Debate adjourned.
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