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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 30 Mar 1990

Vol. 397 No. 8

Order of Business

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 6, 7, 13 and 8.

It is also proposed, subject to the agreement of the House, that:

(1) No. 7 shall be taken without debate

(2) The proceedings on the Report and Final Stages of No. 13, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 12.30 p.m. by one question which shall, in relation to amend-and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only amendments set down by the Minister for Social Welfare.

(3) The following arrangements shall apply for the debate on No. 8:

(a) The speeches of the Spokesperson for each of the Groups shall not exceed 30 minutes

(b) Any other speeches shall be confined to 15 minutes and no Member shall speak more than once except the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach who shall be called on to conclude the debate not later than 4.50 p.m.

(4) At the conclusion of business today the Dáil shall adjourn until Wednesday, 25 April 1990 at 2.30 p.m.

Mr. Dukes

I oppose the whole Order of Business put before us today. It is now proposed that this House should adjourn until 25 April. It is my contention that the House should sit at least for the whole of next week. The Taoiseach promised a debate on Anglo-Irish relations but that will not happen between now and the end of this month and the Minister for Foreign Affairs promised a debate on developments in the European Community and Europe generally.

There are 11 Bills at various Stages before the House: the Planning Compensation Bill, Report and Final Stages; the Turf Development Bill, Report and Final Stages; the Fire Arms and Offensive Weapons Bill, Report and Final Stages; the Criminal Law (Rape) (Amendment) Bill, Committee Stage; the Health (Nursing Homes) Bill, Committee Stage; the Industrial Relations Bill, Committee Stage; the Water Pollution Bill, Committee Stage; the Criminal Justice (Forensic Evidence) Bill, which is basically a Fine Gael Bill, Committee Stage; and the Clinical Trials Bill has been initiated but there has been no debate on it. We also need a Bill to regulate the situation in regard to the local elections. My party have on the Order Paper a Bill in regard to phone tapping and a Bill on the review of sentencing.

An Ceann Comhairle

May I ask Deputy Dukes, if the Order of Business is to be opposed, for brevity in respect to the debate and decision on the matter.

Mr. Dukes

With all of this business before us the Taoiseach has proposed that we should go into recess for three weeks. This Taoiseach has totally lost control of all members of his party and he is now washing his hands of his responsibility to this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Dukes has made his point adequately and eloquently.

Mr. Dukes

The Order of Business is totally unacceptable.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am calling Deputy Dick Spring.

Mr. Spring

I welcome Deputy Dukes' support for the suggestion I made yesterday in regard to the extension of the sittings of this House.

A Deputy

It is all foot work.

Mr. Spring

I am not looking for an Oscar for it.

We would certainly support an extra sitting of the Dáil. I ask the Taoiseach to reconsider this proposal, particularly given his visit to the European capitals over the past few days. It is very important that this House should have the opportunity of reviewing what has been said and what is happening in Europe before his meeting at the end of April. I believe the House should resume earlier than 25 April or should sit next week in order to do this.

Tomás Mac Giolla

I support Deputy Dukes' proposal that we should sit next week. I hope Deputy Dukes will follow up this proposal by using all his Members in a Vote so that we will not have the unseemly procedures we have had yesterday and the past few days——

Mr. Dukes

Cá bhfuil Proinsias?

Mr. McCartan

Twenty-three pairs——

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please.

Tomás Mac Giolla

——where the Whips organise the Vote and decide on the result before we go through the lobbies. Members of Fine Gael are stopped on their way to vote and told not to vote. I ask Deputy Dukes, the Leader of the Opposition, to show his opposition——

A Deputy

At least they are in the House.

Tomás Mac Giolla

Many Members of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Labour Party are not in the House.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick East): Where is your boss this morning?

Tomás Mac Giolla

The voting procedure in this House is being brought into disrepute because of what has been happening during the past number of weeks.

Mr. Dukes

Absence makes the heart grow fonder.

Tomás Mac Giolla

I ask the Leader of the Opposition to show his opposition to this proposal by opposing it with all his strength and not agree, as he did yesterday, to 22 pairs. The Workers' Party will support him in that.

The Taoiseach

I should like to point out that the recess for Easter this year is in accordance with normal practice. This is rather an achievement by the Government——

Mr. S. Barrett

It is an achievement that you got this far.

The Taoiseach

——because, whether or not the Opposition Deputies are prepared to admit it, this is a time of exceptional activity——

Mr. J. Mitchell

In the Seanad.

A Deputy

The Fianna Fáil Seanad.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

If we are going to have these unseemly interruptions I do not know if there is much point in trying to explain the position to the House. I would have preferred a longer recess because we have a great deal of work to do at European level in preparation for a very important summit on 28 April, but in deference to the wishes of the House, we agreed to have the normal recess.

I want to assure Deputy Spring that the debates which we promised will be held. I will be glad as soon as it is satisfactory to do so to give a full report on everything that is happening, because a great deal is happening as the Deputy knows. It is important that the House should be fully informed on all the developments. One of the difficulties is that things have been happening so rapidly that by the time we discuss them here our discussion might well be out of date. I am endeavouring to decide on the most fruitful time to have this discussion, and it will take place.

Mr. Quinn

Before the summit?

The Taoiseach

The next point that Deputy Dukes made about legislation is, in a way, no more than a tribute to the Government on how active we are in our legislative programme. I want to assure Deputy Dukes also that in spite of any obstructive tactics he might engage in, our legislative programme will be completed. I think it odd that Deputy Dukes should complain about the delay in enacting legislation when he went to such great lengths to impede the passage of the Defence (Amendment) Bill which my colleague, the Tánaiste, was attempting to pass through this House as rapidly as possible in the interests of the Defence Forces.

Mr. Dukes

The Taoiseach tried to rush through a Bill that had not been properly thought out.

An Ceann Comhairle

May I take it that the entire proposal by the Taoiseach for the Order of Business is opposed?

Mr. Dukes

Yes, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle

May I take it then that one motion will be sufficient that the Order of Business proposed by the Taoiseach this morning be agreed to?

Mr. Dukes

I am opposing it.

Mr. Howlin

There are a number of amendments down to Item No. 8 on today's Order of Business. If there is to be a question on the Order of Business in toto, how will these amendments be dealt with? Can we be assured that each of them can be voted upon rather than just having a Second Stage debate on a motion which is to conclude at 5 o'clock?

An Ceann Comhairle

That would be the hope and desire of the Chair.

Mr. Howlin

I seek guidance on how the amendments would be programmed into the debate. It is a short debate.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Whips can talk about the matter. We can deal with it as it arises, but I would prefer if the Whips would talk about it.

Mr. Howlin

I am concerned that if people speak on the motion there might be no opportunity to formally put any of the amendments which are very important to the effective resolution of the motion.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is making a valid point. I am suggesting that the Whips discuss the matter and come to an amicable understanding.

Mr. Howlin

Can I seek the agreement of the Taoiseach to a meeting of the Whips to arrange that?

The Taoiseach

Yes. The Government are anxious to be as reasonable and helpful to the House as possible.

Mr. Dukes

And to get out of here as soon as possible.

The Taoiseach

The only humble request we would make is that in return we would receive some help and consideration in bearing the terrible burdens that we have to carry.

Mr. J. Mitchell

Is there a Government commitment to introduce in the next session legislation dealing with the funding of broadcasting and related matters?

The Taoiseach

That legislation has not been promised in the House but as it has been adverted to I would hope that it will be introduced in the next session.

Mr. J. Mitchell

Does the Minister for Communications intend to apologise for misleading the House at Question Time on 27 February when I was asked to leave the House for making that assertion which is now borne out by events?

The Taoiseach

If the Minister for Communications did happen inadvertently to make some kind of a misstatement, the odds are about ten to one in favour of the particular Deputy raising the matter.

Mr. J. Mitchell

The Minister misled the House and he should come in and apologise.

An Ceann Comhairle

This does not arise now. I must clear the Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy should apologise for many a thing he said here.

Mr. Dukes

On a point of order, I hope I am in order because I do not believe this should be passed over lightly. I take it that the Chair has now set a precedent in allowing the Taoiseach to respond to a question on legislation that has been promised but not promised in the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sometimes questions slip through. That has happened with every Chairman in this House but that should not be taken as creating a precedent.

Question put: "That the proposals in respect of (1), (2), (3) and (4) on today's business and sittings be agreed to".

The Dáil divided: Tá, 64; Níl, 59.

Tá

Níl

Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies J. Higgins and Howlin.

Question declared carried.

Mr. McCartan

Seventeen pairs.

Mr. Durkan

When the Deputy's party can provide 17 pairs they will be all right.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Spring.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Spring has been called.

Mr. Spring

In relation to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges report, I understand there is a proposal for televising of this Chamber and that everything is going to be done by early next year for the budget debate. Let me put a suggestion to the Taoiseach which might warrant consideration while that subcommittee are still meeting. Given that a great deal of work will have to be done in this Chamber for the cameras etc., would that subcommittee consider very quickly some form of electronic voting within this Chamber in the interests of time saving, and expediency? If the subcommittee would apply themselves immediately to it, it could be done with the televising. The voting procedures need to be updated and modernised.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is placing the Chair in difficulty in raising an extraneous matter of that kind. Earlier he was referring to the business of the day but he veered away from that to another matter.

Mr. Spring

This is business for the future.

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, indeed, I accept that.

Proinsias De Rossa

I rise to ask the Taoiseach if he will now consider what action he should take in relation to the privileges accorded to Deputies travelling to and from this House now that the McCarthy case has been disposed of.

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter to which the Deputy refers is not in order now.

Proinsias De Rossa

Could I——

An Ceann Comhairle

There are ways and means of raising such matters in this House, Deputy De Rossa. It is not in order now and the Deputy will desist from any further reference to it.

Proinsias De Rossa

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will now resume his seat.

Proinsias De Rossa

On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle

Here we go again.

Proinsias De Rossa

Let me ask you, Sir, do Standing Orders exist in this House in relation to me or do they not?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made a point of challenging the Chair every morning in recent times, for what purpose I do not know. The House will make up its own mind in the matter.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

I have ruled the Deputy out of order. He must now desist or leave the House.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy McCartan, you keep out of this.

Mr. McCartan

He is asking you if the leader of this group is allowed to make a point of order. He has not been allowed to make a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

Do not adopt your legalistic approach towards me, Deputy.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, I have ruled your colleague out of order in respect of the matter he has raised.

Mr. McCartan

I accept that you made that ruling. He then proceeded to make a point of order and you refused to allow him.

An Ceann Comhairle

Why should I allow a point of order on a matter of disorderly conduct? That ruse will not work, Deputy McCartan.

Proinsias De Rossa

On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us hear it.

Proinsias De Rossa

Having placed a question to the Taoiseach which you ruled out of order, I wanted to ask if you would address the issue of the question of privilege and ask the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to investigate whether——

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a different aspect of the matter to which the Deputy adverted in his earlier remarks. He has representation on the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and may proceed to have that matter raised there. I do not propose to take any action in the matter.

Proinsias De Rossa

I am entitled to raise a point of order and you are denying me that right.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is doing this by subterfuge and I will not tolerate it.

Proinsias De Rossa

On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy De Rossa, you are taking on the Chair every morning.

Proinsias De Rossa

I am not.

An Ceann Comhairle

Your purpose in doing so is to identify your presence here.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Rabbitte

That is a disgraceful remark.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy De Rossa, I will not tolerate this barracking here every morning from you or from any of your colleagues.

Mr. Rabbitte

Protecting the Government is one thing, but this is ridiculous.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is alleging the Chair is protecting the Government because it carries out the orders of this House. This matter is going too far.

Proinsias De Rossa

Precisely.

Mr. Rabbitte

It is the Chair who is allowing it to go too far.

Deputies

Withdraw that remark.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Can we proceed with the Order of Business?

(Interruptions.)

Mr. S. Barrett

In view of the fact that the Dáil has democratically decided to adjourn by way of vote and I will not have an opportunity of tabling a Private Notice Question next week, will the Taoiseach give even five minutes today to allow the Minister for Industry and Commerce to make a statement in relation to the emerging difficulties in the motor insurance industry?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a matter more appropriate for the Whips to decide rather than raising it in this fashion.

Mr. S. Barrett

Will the Taoiseach consider it?

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