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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 30 May 1991

Vol. 409 No. 3

University of Limerick (Dissolution of Thomond College) Bill, 1991: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Tá an-áthas orm an Bille seo a chur faoi bhráid na Dála. In the course of the debate, while giving the facts of what we are about which is a simple measure which will be broadly welcomed by all sides, I would like to give in historical fashion some of the context into which the Bill will be set. For that reason we refer back to 1966.

In 1966, while reporting on the training of vocational teachers, the "Investment in Education" survey team pointed to the inappropriateness of existing arrangements for the training of woodwork and metalwork teachers. It argued that existing training accommodation was fragmented and overstretched and that the field of recruitment — suitably educated trades people — was nearly exhausted. Turning its attention to physical education teachers, the team noted the absence of any facility for the training of male physical education teachers and that a large proportion of the existing supply of female physical education teachers had not managed to satisfy registration requirements. Despite its dissatisfaction with the existing arrangements it did not propose any alternatives; it did note, however, that the Department of Education was keeping the situation under review and that it would make any necessary modifications in the training programmes.

The survey team's concern at the ad hoc character of the courses was echoed a year later by the Commission on Higher Education when it suggested that the training of woodwork, metalwork and rural science teachers was “too diffuse”. In its recommendations it argued for a new approach in the training of teachers involving: (1) specialised pedagogic training for all; (2) an extension of the range of content by the addition of academic, scientific and general studies; (3) the development of the courses in a new type of institution and in association with existing or emerging institutions; (4) the extension of the period of study; and (5) the creation of a degree award for graduates of the recognised courses.

All those in the House will recall reading the important report in 1966, Investment in Education. I had just started back at teaching and I remember well the excitement which resulted on the publication of that report because it pointed the way forward.

In 1969 the HEA report clearly identified in a modern sense the inappropriateness of having people trained just for one speciality, that teachers should have a broader range which would enable them to conduct their speciality and at the same time to have other link subjects which would give them a much broader educational remit and also increase their employment opportunities.

In early 1969 the Higher Education Authority established a working party to report in general on teacher training. In its findings, which were published in September 1970, the Authority endorsed the earlier opinions that provision for the training of metalwork and woodwork teachers was unnecessarily dispersed and it recommended that it be concentrated in one institution. This was followed by a setback and Deputy Kemmy would have been aware of the ongoing agitation in Limerick for more and better educational establishments.

Against the background of a campaign for the establishment of a university in Limerick the HEA recommended that city as the obvious centre for the training institute — to which I referred earlier — and that the new Institute of Higher Education and the Mary Immaculate Teacher Training College might together provide facilities for the relocated courses. The report did not examine the arrangements for the training of home economics, music, physical education and rural science teachers, but it suggested that they be the subject of a further study.

In the event, the metalwork and woodwork teachers' courses, along with the course for general and rural science teachers, were not relocated at Limerick until nine years had passed — big bodies move slowly — and then they joined an institution which had opened its doors as the National College of Physical Education in January 1973.

The notion of a State college for physical educationalists was not new. A Department of Education committee had recommended such an establishment in a report which was completed in 1938. I am being extraordinarily honest telling the House how long it took to bring all these events to fruition. The recommendation was not acted upon and such physical educationalists as were employed in second level schools were either graduates of two colleges in Dublin for female physical educationalists, former military physical education instructors or graduates of one of the British colleges of education. During the late sixties the supply of these teachers fell far short of demand and an attempt was made to meet the shortfall by sending groups of male students to England for training.

At the same time the possibility was explored of extending the training provision available in Dublin so that both male and female teachers could be trained there. However, the Government's acceptance of the Higher Education Authority recommendation to relocate woodwork and metalwork teacher training courses in Limerick and the emerging consensus that there were too many courses in too many locations, meant that Limerick would have to receive serious consideration as a possible site for any new facility.

The decision to proceed with the planning of a new college in Limerick was taken in the autumn of 1970 and a site adjoining the then National Institute for Higher Education was purchased in January 1971. When the new National College of Physical Education opened on 22 January 1973 it had a ready-made student body consisting of a group of male students who had commenced a teacher education course at Twickenham and two groups of female students who had commenced their courses at the two Dublin colleges, Ling and St. Raphael's. It was interesting that these students had started their courses in other colleges and, in the case of the males, in another country, and yet the emerging institution was able to dovetail its new courses to the studies already undertaken by these young people.

In 1979 courses for metalwork, woodwork and general and rural science teachers commenced in the college and the following year, with the passing of the Thomond College of Education Act, 1980, it commenced operating as an institution with statutorily defined powers and functions.

During the eighties however Ireland began to experience a falling birth rate which has had a major effect on teacher training colleges. This manifested itself in Thomond College in that an institution that was built to accommodate 1,100 students has a total enrolment in the current academic year of 392. It was against this background, and given that the college and the university share a common campus, which was very sensible planning, that I met with the authorities of the two institutions with a view to commencing a dialogue on the linking of the institutions. We found a common ground quite quickly. Arising from these talks a working group was set up comprising representatives of the Higher Education Authority, Thomond College, the University of Limerick and the Department of Education to consider how the resources and expertise of the two institutions might best be mobilised in view of the outlook for the requirement of teachers in the years ahead and the demand for higher education places in general.

The Higher Education Authority met very soon afterwards and the committee issued their recommendations in October 1990. The main recommendation was that the college should be integrated with the university. Specifically they recommended that the Thomond College of Education Act, 1980 — the Act that is the subject of our debate today — should be repealed and that the management and academic structures of the university should be reorganised to facilitate the integration. The proposed integration is in line with the undertaking in paragraph 69 (j) of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress to expand third level places by utilising spare capacity in the various colleges of education, including Thomond College, involving linkages within the university system.

The Bill being introduced, therefore, will give effect to the integration as agreed by the two institutions involved and will be a step towards meeting the obligation in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress to expand third level places. The Bill will do more, however, than merely allow for a formal integration. It will allow the expertise and experience of two institutions which have been built up over the years to be fused together to the mutual benefit of both staff and students. Thomond College has developed an academic reputation in areas such as education, sports, science, leisure and recreation, biological sciences and metal and wood technology. These areas have a particular potential to contribute to the excellence and relevance of the university.

It is my wish, and I am sure the wish of this House and of all educationalists, that the expertise which has been very rigorously and painstakingly built up by Thomond College, expertise in the fields to which I referred and an overall pervasive expertise in the broad humanities area, would be retained and channelled most fruitfully within the new merged college. The university has always seen its mission as the pursuit of excellence in teaching and research to the highest level, particularly in areas adjudged to be of strategic benefit to the economic and social development of Ireland. Its success was acknowledged in 1989 when it was given full university status. The integration will be another step in its development in that it will provide an extra 600 to 700 places and will allow expansion in the areas where the university has built up a particular expertise such as science, engineering and business studies.

What is proposed therefore is the necessary legislation to give effect to the integration of Thomond College with the University of Limerick. The purpose of the Bill therefore is to dissolve Thomond College, transfer the teacher training functions from the college to the university and transfer the staff, property, rights and liabilities of the college to the university. The word "dissolve" is a negative word and one I would not have used in the preparation of legislation. I wanted to use the word "merger" or "amalgamation" because that is what is happening. The words "merger" and "amalgamation" are words which would correctly give amplification to what we are doing, but I was advised legally that "dissolution" is the proper word to use. I say this in case it comes up as a point in the debate. That word is there because it is the correct legal term.

While therefore, Thomond College will no longer exist as a separate entity, its functions and objectives will continue to be pursued within the wider remit of the University of Limerick. The expertise and experience which the staff of the college have gained over the years will not be lost to us, it will still be available but in the context of an expanded University of Limerick. The success of Thomond College can be seen on a daily basis in our second level schools in that graduates of the college are held in high regard as teachers. That college has a very high professional standard. It would be remiss of me therefore not to pay due tribute to its Director, Mr. Jim Christian, and other senior staff who have guided the college to its success. Quite often too the contribution made by those men and women who act in an unpaid capacity as members of governing bodies of institutions in general is not appreciated. Thomond College has been particularly fortunate in the calibre of the people who have served on its governing body over the years and I am pleased to acknowledge their contribution to the success and prestige of the college.

One effect this legislation will have is that students who commenced their courses as students of Thomond College will have their degrees awarded by the University of Limerick and not the National Council for Educational Awards as heretofore.

It is right, therefore, that I pay due and proper tribute to the National Council for Educational Awards, under whose aegis the college has developed. The acknowledgment of excellence which is the basis for this legislation is, at the same time, an endorsement of the quality and standing of the NCEA, its processes, its awards at all levels — certificate, diploma and degree — and also of the colleges and institutions which are designated institutions of the council.

I was very pleased as Minister for Education to introduce a Bill in May, 1989 giving full university status to the National Institute for Higher Education, Limerick. Indeed, if I may diversify for a moment, the university legislation was passed on the very day the general election was called. I remember being the last person to speak as the House fell. That is just by way of a footnote to history. Here we are exactly two years later again discussing a Limerick educational provision. However, I must not take that analogy any further. It is very gratifying, therefore, to introduce a Bill which represents another major development in the history of the university. I am sure that the people of Limerick, who campaigned for a long time for a university for their city and have found their due reward, will welcome these proposals and the important development they represent for the third level education system. I am sure, too, that the House will welcome this initiative in general.

We will be dealing with the various provisions of the Bill later but I should like to record a couple of matters. Naturally, reaction to the proposed merger has been relatively harmonious. In the initial talks between the HEA and the two management bodies there are bound to be legitimate worries and trepidations expressed on behalf of all concerned and particularly on behalf of the staff of the two institutions. Bearing that very much in mind I met recently with the MSF union, which represents most of the members in Thomond College. I had a very full meeting in my Department with what was a full delegation. Many of their legitimate causes of concern were discussed. They were concerned about their future activities and their role after the merger. In particular we discussed the need for ongoing and in depth consultation with members of the college as matters advanced. I also met the General Secretary of the Teachers Union of Ireland, which union also have members in Thomond, and he freely expressed to me the same fears held by some of his members in the college. Following that the consultative process which had been at senior management level was expanded. Negotiations about those matters are continuing. My wish is that there will be full consultation between the two institutions, particularly with regard to the needs of members of those institutions. I am hopeful that with such goodwill as exists these matters will be satisfactorily concluded and that the forum that has been set up will achieve the fastest and smoothest integration possible. I am told that the forum is committed to a consultative process in both institutions, with the aim of its being advised on every aspect of the integration before final decisions are taken. Several joint working groups feeding into the central forum, with membership from Thomond and the University of Limerick, have been put in place. Timespans have been set down for them to carry out their work. The forum and the consultative groups are sitting at present and will continue to do so in the next few weeks to ensure a proper and equitable working out of the various areas of concern of members of staff in each institution.

When I met the unions earlier and again two weeks ago they forcibly expressed the need to have enshrined in the legislation the particular place of Irish language and culture. Provision for that is included in section 10 and that can be talked about in general. However, I did undertake to put on the record of the House the need to have such an item very clearly expressed under a specific section of the Bill. That deputation expressed their appreciation of that but wanted to re-emphasise it. That will be one of the strengths of the University of Limerick, which has a very fine remit for the Irish language and culture. Their remit will be strengthened greatly by the admission of Thomond College, its ethos and its fine educational record on matters relating to the Irish language and culture. It is my wish that section 10 — and, indeed, all measures in the Bill if its gets through all Stages — be treated in the serious manner it deserves. I commend the Bill to the House.

I welcome the Bill as it represents a rational approach to meeting the needs of third level education in the south-west region and because in the merging of two third level institutions movement is made towards a stronger, more vibrant, dynamic third level sector in Limerick. There is an added dimension in that the new merged institution will make more third level places available. As the Minister has said, this is extremely welcome.

I do not wish to be critical at this stage because we are embarking on a new adventure and we are on the advent of another historic step in the development of third level education. However, it is a pity that this rationalisation, which could have happened last year, did not happen last year and that Irish students were denied access to third level education because of the intransigent and myopic approach of some people involved at management level and because of the failure of the Minister for Education — this is the only critical note I shall issue of her — to prosecute her policy initiative in a more vigorous fashion. It is, however, better late than never, and the vast majority of participants from both institutions enthusiastically welcome the reorganisation. The merger provides opportunities for all in values to contribute more fully and more constructively towards the advancement of the University of Limerick and towards rectifying the shortage of third level places.

I understand that the student body have also welcomed this initiative, and they are, of course, a very important and vital component. I welcome the very constructive, imaginative and positive role they have played in advancing this initiative and in bringing it to fruition today. They are to be congratulated, as is everybody involved in the venture. Both institutions — the University of Limerick, formerly known as the National Institute for Higher Education, and Thomond College of Education — were established by Acts of this House in 1980. Indeed, when putting the two Acts down side by side and examining them, one notes that they are parallel and very similar. Indeed, after looking at both the memoranda and the actual section by section detail of the legislation, I can find very little difference apart from the odd variation. Both institutions deserve congratulations on the manner in which they have discharged their respective remits in the intervening 11 years. Both establishments have proved their worth and significance in the development of third level education in the country generally, in the south-west in particular, and very especially in the city of Limerick. The city of Limerick is extremely fortunate to have such a good range of third level facilities. While the Act gave a statutory base to Thomond College in 1980, the college itself had been established earlier and was functional from 1973.

The college has developed a range of expertise and resources in the area of physical education, recreation and leisure, technology and physical sciences, agricultural, horticultural and biographical sciences, business education, the humanities and the arts. The functions of Thomond College of Education were given legislative effect with the passing of the Thomond College of Education Act, 1980. That Act allocated certain functions to the college. Over the years Thomond College endeavoured to carry out its responsibilities and functions by providing under-graduate and post-graduate diploma and degree courses and research and consultancy work to the highest standards. Everyone agrees that the paramount function of Thomond College, and its area of greatest distinction, has been in the fulfilment of its role in providing teacher education, particularly in the area of practical teaching for post-primary level. Since its inception, Thomond College has trained teachers to the highest standards in various disciplines.

The college has developed in other ways. There is optimum use of the knowledge basis required to service the teacher education function in a national and international context and the wider application of these knowledge bases increased as demands grew. This has led to the development of courses outside the narrow regime of teacher education. It is understandable that there should be anxiety that all existing aspects of the work carried out in Thomond College should now be transferred intact to the new development. It is important that the new institutional arrangement should provide for the education and professional preparation of teachers, for in-service educational training, for research and consultancy in areas relating to the expertise of the college and the development of designated and emerging programmes and initiatives in areas related to the expertise that this college, and its staff, has.

Due credit must go to the working party to which the Minister referred. The working party comprised in the main of people from Thomond College of Education, from the University of Limerick and from the Higher Education Authority. This group did the research work and provided the legislative framework we are addressing in the House today.

The working party first identified the legislative requirement of repealing the Thomond College of Education Act, 1980 and the various reorganisational, management and academic structures which will be necessary to enable the integration to go ahead.

In identifying the university's mission which is the pursuit of excellence in teaching and research to the highest level, particularly in areas adjudged to be of strategic benefit to the economic and social development of Ireland, the working group have also taken cognisance of the guiding inspiration of Thomond College. The college motto of Thomond —"Ar fheabhas Tuamhan" means "The best in the world". This motto was chosen by Thomond College at the time to signal its intention to strive for excellence in all its endeavours while linking inextricably the college with the success of the Thomond region. As the statement of mission and function by Thomond College of Education stated in July 1990 "Of course, the college has interpreted this ideal by implementing its functions in a way that has exploited the virutes of its size; flexibility, adaptability and openness to change". Thomond College, therefore, looks forward to a development and expansion and further invigoration of its role within the new university structures.

The arrival of Thomond College at the University of Limerick Plassey Campus is a logical development in that we will now have instead of three colleges in the University of Limerick, a fourth constituent college added to the university. As the Minister said this was a good indication of the positive, forward seeing good Limerick planning. The working group recommended that the academic council of the university should be enlarged to allow the former Thomond College to have adequate and proportionate representation on the academic council of the university. Again, the working group lay emphasis on the need to ensure that the existing student body at Thomond College of Education should be guaranteed that when they have completed their course of studies they will receive the level of award to which their current recognised programme entitles them.

Thomond College's outstanding feature is its excellence in the training of specialist post-primary teachers. Its integration at this point into the new University of Limerick and its concurrent method of dealing with teacher training so as to focus the need for a major reexamination of post-primary teacher training is particularly apt.

The Minister will be aware that a recent OECD article entitled "Ireland and its Teachers" talks about the question of whether a short or a long term view of teacher supply should be taken at this time. We should look at the whole area of primary teachers and post-primary teachers, consider what are the likely supply and demand needs of the future and whether rationalisation or innovation should be called upon. The OECD recommended that these areas should be looked at very carefully as recruitment policy is vital for the vitality of our teacher training institutions. The size of the teacher training institutions must be addressed in the not too distant future.

In view of the fact that one of our teacher training colleges closed in 1976, and in view of the decline in population, the Minister is faced with a number of choices as to whether or not the status quo should be maintained. Should the two large teacher training colleges continue in existence? We should continue them. The college in Limerick, and the college in Drumcondra, have been enormously successful as have been the two smaller institutions. Carysfort Training College was also very successful in producing primary school teachers of outstanding quality with a level of academic ability and attainment on a par with that available throughout the world. Major questions have to be asked as to whether it would be wise to close down more institutions or else to effect institutional mergers and consolidate teacher training and physical resources. In other OECD countries they have gone for merger and consolidation.

Teacher training courses here lead to the award of a degree validated by a university. This may be used as an argument for consolidation and integration. However, I would prefer we retained and expanded the collaboration that exists between the teacher training colleges and universities. The University of Limerick is a flagship university. Everybody accepts that it has been one of the leaders in the development of a new concept of the university. It is accepted that the man who heads that university could be heralded as one of the extraordinary innovators of third level education. He can be looked at as one of the new breed of educational entrepreneurs.

We must stand back and look at the mission and function of the university. In identifying the university's mission, which is the pursuit of excellence in teaching and research, particularly in areas judged to be of strategic benefit to the economic and social development of the country, we have to take a long hard look at whether or not universities can sometimes go too far in taking on narrow specific economic roles. The new body should look at what they now have in this marvellous new amalgamated resource, and decide their priorities, the ethos and what new theme, motto or philosophy should predominate in education.

There is scope for further collaboration in Limerick. We are particularly fortunate that Limerick has the Mary Immaculate College, one of the outstanding colleges in the country. As I said, it, St. Patrick's, Drumcondra, Rathmines and the Froebel College have all played a very significant part in training teachers. We should also look at the possibility of introducing specific teacher training modules at second level. I know it will occupy the Minister's attention in the years ahead whether the type of concurrent training in primary level should now be adopted at second level and whether we should look at the possibility of turning out specifically trained second level teachers instead of the existing system of a primary degree augmented by a higher diploma in education. Indeed, this gels very well with what is happening in Limerick at present where people are being advanced in their academic pursuits in relation to economic, technical and scientific training and at the same time given a very high level of "hands on" involvement in industry.

I strongly argue that the new development in Limerick should be particularly sensitive to the aspirations and wishes of the people coming from Thomond College. Therefore, in relation to the period of transition, there should be the maximum possible number of places given to the people from Thomond College on the new governing body, which would do a lot in the early stages to allay any residual unease by them. There should be the greatest possible openness and receptivity by the people in the new University of Limerick.

Everything possible should be done to ensure that the long term structure also accommodates people from Thomond College. Furthermore, the ethos of the college should, as the Minister said, pay particular reference to section 10 of the Bill. In relation to this section the explanatory memorandum says that it does not require further elaboration, elucidation or explanation — in other words, it is self-explanatory. However, I do not agree. The wording of the Bill is ambiguous because of different punctuation. One can talk about Irish culture or Irish with a comma after it. Several different interpretations can be made in relation to the wording. Section 10 states:

The University in relation to the performance of its functions shall have due regard to the preservation and promotion of the Irish language and culture.

If there was a comma after "Irish" it would mean the Irish language, but as it is it is ambiguous. I know that we must preserve Irish language and culture and it is worthy of a specific reference in the Bill. However, we should broaden the definition of culture. The broadest possible interpretation should be put on the obligations involved in this section so that we are not just talking about Irish and Irish culture but about Irish, language and culture in the broadest possible sense of the word. It is something that people coming from Thomond College would like to see enshrined in the Bill. It conforms perfectly to the idea of a university, because there has been a tendency of late on the part of some of the more modern universities to go away from the initial concept of a university and shirk the humanities. If you go back to the origins of universities, humanities are their single and distinguishing feature, any university worthy of the name should have a high element of humanities contained in it.

Like Members on all sides of the House, I welcome the Bill because it is a major step forward in relation to the development of third level education. I said that the more modern third level institutions were somewhat narrow in relation to a particular course of study and were not cognisant of the humanities aspect. I am not being overcritical. I believe that the arrival of the new colleges on the educational scene—the nine RTCs, DIT colleges, the precursor of this, NIHE, Limerick and the NIHE, Glasnevin, which is now Dublin City University — have created a new element of competition within the third level sector which is extremely good in itself. They have been the pioneers of innovation and have shown distinct imagination in relation to broadening the scope of the universities beyond the traditional. Furthermore, above all else, these universities have brought about a huge and wide expansion of the curriculum available to people at third level.

It is of paramount importance to collectively decide to make two things possible: (1) a far larger number of third level places; and (2) greater access by everyone to third level education. There are 63,000 people attending third level colleges and 34,000 of them are in receipt of grants. However, approximately 29,000 people do not qualify for ESF, VEC or higher education grants. If you examine the social structure you will see that among the 29,000 people to whom I referred there is a huge section of the new poor, the PAYE middle income sector. There is a collective obligation, social, political and moral, on us to try to do something to open up greater accessibility for the people caught in the middle income poverty trap because they do not qualify for any grant and as a result do not have access to third level education to realise their talents and potential.

I compliment the Minister, the working group and everybody involved in this innovation. We have made another signal step towards the development of third level education. The south-west is particularly lucky.

The Minister was quite right to jog our memory, because the last time she spoke on third level education in Limerick a general election followed almost immediately. Indeed, she was the last speaker in the House on that day and, if I recall correctly, she gave me some of her time to make my contribution.

I also remember that, while the debate was very stormy and acrimonious, the Bill was passed. In spite of all the background noises and clamour the Bill got through the House and the people who had come from Limerick to listen to the debate were pleased. I do not imagine that the fact the Minister is piloting this Bill through the House means that there will be a similar result.

I am sorry I brought it up.

This is a short, simple and functional Bill, but it is very important. The merger between the two colleges was natural and inevitable. It is a milestone in the history of third level education in Limerick. It is a positive and constructive milestone as far as education is concerned. I know both colleges well from my experience in Limerick and they will benefit from integration. I believe also that Limerick, the mid-west and the country as a whole will benefit from this integration.

In the course of her contribution the Minister made a few important statements, including:

The Bill will do more, however, than merely allow for a formal integration. It will allow the expertise and experience of two institutions which have been built up over the years to be fused together to the mutual benefit of both staff and students.

No one could disagree with her on that point. Indeed, I support those sentiments wholeheartedly. With goodwill on all sides of the House, there is no reason why this objective cannot be achieved. The Minister went on to say:

The integration will be another step in its development in that it will provide an extra 600 to 700 places and will allow expansion in the areas where the university has built up a particular expertise such as science, engineering and business studies.

As I said, both institutions should benefit from this integration. Thomond College has much to offer the university. It should be stressed that even though it is much smaller it will be a willing partner and there is no opposition in the college to this move. The college has a different ethos to that of the university and it embodies the right to free academic speech and freedom of expression and thought. This is very important in any university where we sometimes go to speak to students or staff who may torment us at times, but that is life. Democracy will not thrive unless alternative views are expressed. I hope the principles to which I have referred will be accepted in the new institution. Indeed, they should be respected, enhanced and forced on the institution, if necessary.

As Deputy Higgins said, in-service education is very important. This forms part and parcel of Thomond College, which is recognised internationally. These functions must be preserved and enhanced in the new body with special reference to physical education, metal and engineering technologies, wood and building technologies, horticulture, general and rural science, business education and, above all, the Humanities, which is very important as the university has proved to be deficient in this area in the past.

Even though the Bill is short, it will not be easy to join the two institutions together. It will be a difficult and complex process; but, with goodwill, co-operation and benign benevolence on the part of the Minister, it can be achieved. It is essential that consultations take place at all levels during the process, not just at one level. I was pleased to hear the Minister say that the working party will hold discussions at all levels in the two bodies. It is important that the rights of the staff of Thomond College be respected because, as I have pointed out, their careers are at stake. They should have the right to be consulted in this matter. I would like to see the joint committee holding discussions at all levels so as to ensure that any industrial relations problems are ironed out at this stage and not allowed to fester. I hope the Minister will use her good offices in this matter for the benefit of both bodies. I am also pleased that the Minister has held dicussions with the Teachers Union of Ireland and the MSF. I wish those involved in the talks in Dublin today all the best, because unless there is a free exchange of views and goodwill on all sides the process of integration will not be a smooth one or bear fruit.

It is my hope that places on the governing body of the university will be reserved for members of the staff of Thomond College. Places are reserved in the existing structure; but, as the Minister is aware, the number of places on the governing body is to be reduced from 23 to 20. In addition, places should be reserved for them on the executive committee of the university, who are responsible for the day-to-day running of the university. This is a sub committee of the governing body. It is important that they be involved in the decision-making process. I also hope that academics from Thomond College will have a role to play in that committee.

I was pleased to hear the Minister say that the university will have a responsibility to promote the Irish language and culture. It is important that we do not gloss over that aspect in the House today. The university should have a wide appeal and should not confine itself to technical subjects. It should have a broad Humanities Department encompassing the Irish language and culture. I am also glad that she recognised the contribution Thomond College is making to the culture of the Plassey complex and Limerick city. That contribution has not been acknowledged either in this House or in Limerick. I would like to say that the staff and students of Thomond College have made a big contribution to the culture of our city, which is very cosmopolitan. This has led to interest in the Irish language, culture, poetry, literature and set dancing being revived. They have been the driving force behind this move and that should be acknowledged. The university should not be a cold place, rather it should be a bustling and lively place. Let us hope that their contribution will not be stultified in the new institution, because it will be all the poorer if it is. I cannot stress enough the importance of the Humanities in the new institution. I will deal with this matter later.

I would also like the Minister to consider expanding the library facilities in the new university. As the Minister is aware, the NIHE, now known as the University of Limerick, has a copyright library which has the right to ensure that books published by Irish publishers are deposited in the library. Unfortunately, some Irish publishers are ignoring their duties, obligations and responsibilities and not depositing books in the university. It is important that this right be preserved in the Bill. I could find no reference to the matter in the Bill, but if I am wrong I ask the Minister to correct me. It is important that this right is not removed and if it is not included in the Bill it should be incorporated on Committee Stage.

Section 7 of the Bill incorporates those old words "officers and servants". That language is outdated, archaic, outmoded, Victorian and Dickensian and has no place in modern terminology. It should have gone out with the stage coach and the buggy. Would the Minister explain the reason they have been included in the Bill? Each person working at the university is contributing and fulfilling a function and, as far as I am concerned, those words have no place in modern terminology and should not be included in the Bill. I would support an amendment to remove them.

Graduates of the main universities are allowed to vote in Seanad elections. Will the graduates of the new university be given the right to take part in that election? They should be given this right but not as a token gesture or an act of charity.

At present a one year equestrian course is provided by Thomond College. The students and teachers have for a long time being lobbying people like myself and the Minister to have a degree course of three years provided. I would ask the Minister to consider taking that suggestion on board.

Sadly, Thomond College has been overshadowed in the past by the University of Limerick, which is bigger, more grandiose and better designed. Indeed, it is dwarfed by the university which has received far more money, has more prestige and has a higher profile.

Because the university had far more money, more prestige and a higher profile, Thomond College suffered and staff and pupils are demoralised. As the Minister knows from her frequent visits to the campus, the structure is of very bad design. In my book the design of Thomond College is a disaster. It looks like a modern bunker — some wits have described it as an upturned submarine. To me, as somebody who has been in the building industry for a very long time, it is badly designed and the choice of material used on the outside was bad. The college has suffered because of the bad design and the lack of outside maintenance in particular. It is now a rather shabby run down building, and this has a demoralising effect on both the staff and students. This is a pity because we are all entitled to work in a good atmosphere.

The college was built on one of the finest sites on these islands, on the banks of the River Shannon. It is a poetic place near Plassey, and it was a great pity to ruin such a lovely environment, the beautiful scenery and the river by a badly designed building. I find this incomprehensible. A place of learning should uplift the spirit, not demoralise both staff and students who have to work in an airless building which could be better designed. I could say much more but I will leave it at that for the present.

I hope the university will improve with the infusion of talent from Thomond College. Deputy Higgins asked what is the purpose of a university in the present world. We should constantly ask ourselves that question when speaking about education in this House. We should also ask what is the purpose of university education. I had a friend in Limerick, a great wit, who said that universities polish stones and dull diamonds. I do not necessarily go along with that view. Universities are very important in the modern world, especially a technological university like Limerick which specialises in courses on technology, industry and the economy, which is vital to our survival. Sometimes we vote through large sums of money for the universities on the nod without questioning where the money is going. Is there any public accountability for the money voted to the universities? What are the universities doing to solve our problems? The world is now full of problems, 250,000 of our people are unemployed, a third of our people are on the poverty line and emigration is now in full spate.

I will not say that the people in universities are in their ivory towers working in isolation, but they continue to work. I would not for one moment wish to distort the purpose of education, but there must be some public accountability when public money is involved and we must ask for some stewardship. This applies to Limerick University and to every other university in this country. At a time when we have a great many problems, it is important that the University of Limerick contribute to finding solutions to these problems. We are constantly being told about the success rate of Limerick University graduates finding employment. Many find employment in multinational companies or in foreign countries and there is nothing wrong with that as far as I am concerned. The fact that a person gets work is a good thing.

However, there are questions which have never been asked. Have the universities an obligation to find solutions to our problems considering the vast amount of money we pump into them?

That question should be asked during this debate. We cannot have too narrow a focus on the purpose of the university, because as far as I am concerned the University of Limerick must be used to find answers to our problems, and perhaps we should address this point at some future date. The university should use all their expertise to find answers, to suggest blueprints and design programmes and policies to create employment thus ending the misery resulting from unemployment.

Another point we should address is integration and the gap between town and gown in Limerick. The University of Limerick and Thomond College are located approximately three miles from the city centre and there is a physical gap between the colleges and the town centre. That is not the position in other universities such as Trinity College and UCD, which are part of the fabric of Dublin society. The students at University College, Cork, University, College Galway and Queen's University, Belfast, are very much part and parcel of urban life in those cities. Unfortunately I cannot say the same for the University of Limerick. There is a physical and mental gap there. However, the colleges made a good contribution to Treaty 300 and that process should go on. The infusion of young people into a city enlivens it and gives it vitality. The integration of students and academics into city life will help the city to flourish and diversify. I would like to see that process continuing in this new institution and there is no reason that it should not.

Deputy Higgins alluded to the fact that the Minister might have further designs on Limerick and he mentioned the possible merger of Mary Immaculate College with this new university. The Minister was wise enough not to mention it in her contribution — perhaps she would be biting off more than she could chew — and she was quite right to leave it out for the present. That is another day's work. In Limerick this move is seen as inevitable. I have not dealt with it at length in my contribution because we do not need to tackle this issue today. We will deal with the present problem before the House and guide the legislation through as best we can. If it emerges that the Minister is working on a further measure she will put it before the House in due course. However, let me say that I am not opposed to the concept of merging this college with the university. I do not think there would be much opposition from Mary Immaculate College either, but we can deal with that later.

Meanwhile let us stay with the problem before us. This looks like a simple, short Bill but it could have a rocky passage in Limerick unless the right people make the right decisions and provide the right framework. The Minister plays a pivotal role, and she is the authority. She has the respect of both colleges and must ensure that this integration is not a lustful mating but a democratic integration of two colleges for the benefit of the students and academic education.

I am confident that with the goodwill of all the parties concerned, this will be progressive legislation, and I welcome this Bill.

I join with other Deputies in welcoming this Bill. Thomond College have in a very short period developed a tradition and have become very well known. I hope that the traditions they have developed will be preserved. One of their traditions was professionalism in teaching. The college provide fine teachers who were able to instill in graduates the very best concepts of discipline in sport and physical education. I know a number of their graduates who were very much sought after by schools and colleges both at home and abroad. Teaching was their most important function. Their students did not have to excel at a particular sport but they had to know it and they had to be able to convey the principles and concepts of discipline to the pupils. The teaching function must be preserved and this might be lost in the amalgamation with the university. I hope, as both Deputy Kemmy and the Minister said, that it will be a merger, as is intended, although the legal mechanism is the dissolution of the college. I hope that the merger concept is maintained and that the Thomond ethos will have a will of its own within the university so that they can maintain and preserve the traditions they have built up.

Limerick University is also new and the people of Limerick fought very hard for it. Deputy Higgins described Professor Edward Walsh, the President of the university as an extraordinary individual. I would agree with that. He also described him as an educational entrepreneur. I think that is precisely what he is, and that is a very dangerous thing.

We were issued yesterday with the third edition of Decision Maker which contains an article by Rex Cathcart on an Education Act for the South, on which he gives a view from the North. That article states:

While the delegate at the British Young Conservatives conference who asserted, "it is time to proclaim education as a commodity to be bought and sold, and to disclaim the Marxian view that education is a right", may have been indulging in extremist rhetoric, there is little doubt that he expressed the effective tenor of Thatcherite policy.

Professor Edward Walsh was five years ahead of that young Conservative when he said that education should be regarded as a commodity like any other which is available for those who wish to purchase it. He was well ahead of the Thatcherites. That is his philosophy of education. It is a very simple, clear, very right wing aristocratic philosophy of education but it is a philosophy. It is not the educational philosophy held by people generally.

Unfortunately we do not have an education Act, although the Minister intends to produce one. That matter is the subject of debate among educationalists. If we have an education Act I presume it will set down some philosophy of education. Our Constitution states clearly that education is a right, to the extent that it must be provided free at primary level. If we have an education Act with an education philosophy which is in accordance with our Constitution, public servants, such as Professor Edward Walsh, must conform to that educational philosophy or resign from their office. Unfortunately we do not have an educational philosophy and people like Professor Walsh can proclaim any philosophy they like. If that is an attitude which develops in the University of Limerick, those who go from Thomond College may expect fairly short shrift if they cannot by the commodity which Professor Walsh has for sale, which is a very poor beginning to an educational system.

I agree with this merger but I wonder if it could be the beginning of a new policy of amalgamating all teacher training colleges with universities. The idea has been suggested already and it may well be a developing policy within the Minister's mind or within the Department of Education, where most policies develop. It may be a good idea in time but I would be against it until such time as we have an education Act which sets out clear policies at all levels of education so that we do not have this hit and miss, stopgo approach to problems of educational policy. The importance of an education Act is that we would have a clearly laid down philosophy, policy and structure to which we would conform. The idea of teacher training colleges being amalgamated with universities without clearly set out policies for both teacher training and pupil training at all levels would be a disaster. The suggestion is that teacher training could well fit into the arts faculty of a university. What is missed there is the teacher training concept. The teacher training aspect of Thomond College is vitally important. That could well be lost if the students are fitted into a university degree system. While I would oppose the idea at present, there could come a time when I would agree to it if necessary changes were made in the system.

I am worried about the reduction in numbers in teacher training colleges. Over the years the concept has developed that there is a large pool of unemployed teachers without full-time jobs who can be called upon at any time and that therefore we can reduce the number of teacher training places. I believe only 250 are qualifying this year at primary level, about one third the normal number. The Department of Education may be overestimating the number of unemployed teachers. Many teachers who were available for part-time or temporary jobs have emigrated or obtained jobs in other areas. I do not believe there are accurate estimates of the numbers available for teaching work. The Minister's commitment in the PESP means an increase in the number of teachers required and I am worried that the number of places in the training colleges has fallen much too low. The same anxiety might be expressed with regard to Thomond College and to the universities. The Minister should consider this matter. There is no organised system of panels for substitute teachers. Schools have to ring around to find out who is available for substitute work instead of contacting some central agency.

Section 10 provides as follows:

The University in relation to the performance of its functions shall have due regard to the preservation and promotion of the Irish language and culture.

That is a very generalised statement. What is required when we are talking about teacher training? What is the policy in regard to the Irish language in that area? This provision needs amendment and I intend to table an amendment on Committee Stage.

Tásúil agam go mbeidh deis agam cúpla nóiméad a chaitheamh chun fáilte a chur roimh an Bhille, chun comhgháirdeas a dhéanamh leis an Aire, agus smaoineamh nó dhó atá agam maidir le cúrsaí oideachais a chur ós comhair an Tí. Tuigim anois go dtiocfaidh an deis sin tar éis 3.45 p.m., ach tá mé buíoch as uacht bheith in ann a fhógairt anois go mbeidh mé ag labhairt ar feadh tamaill.

Debate adjourned.
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