Following a meeting of the Whips this morning it is proposed to withdraw item No. 6 on today's Order Paper, to be replaced by a substitute motion on a supplementary Order Paper. It is proposed that this motion shall be decided without debate. The motion on the supplementary Order Paper has been circulated.
Allocation of Time: Motions.
My party do not agree with the attempt by the Government to deal with the Estimates of expenditure en bloc in one debate. I say this for constitutional and legal reasons. A case was taken in the High Court — Michael Ahern v. Kerry County as a result of an attempt by Kerry County Council to adopt their Estimates en bloc. The High Court found on 26 May 1987 that in attempting to adopt Estimates of expenditure in that way Kerry County Council had acted illegally. I contend that if the Dáil attempts to adopt its Estimates in this way, Dáil Éireann will be acting illegally under the same principle.
Article 17 of the Constitution is very clear. It states that Dáil Éireann shall be presented with the Estimates of expenditure for consideration as soon as possible after they have been published. These Estimates were published seven months ago but they are only being presented to the Dáil for consideration tomorrow. Far from the Government abiding by the provisions of the Constitution which refers to the Estimates being presented as soon as possible, these Estimates are being presented as late as possible because under the provisions of the Central Fund Act the Government would be unable to spend money during the summer recess without the Estimates having been adopted and voted upon here.
What is happening here is in direct conflict with the law of the land and the Constitution. Is there any residents' association, county council, or football club that would allow their proposals for expenditure for the year, for instance, a proposal for a building by a football club, to be approved and put through under a guillotine debate without having the opportunity to query individual elements in the project?
The Estimates, which amount to £6.6 billion, are contained in 44 separate Votes under approximately 700 different subheadings of expenditure, all of which have to be paid for by the taxpayer. Dáil Éireann and its Members are not to be allowed to query either the 44 individual Votes or the 700 subheadings within those Votes. Instead, we are being asked to agree to a long, rambling and diffuse debate with a series of speeches, none of which relate directly to any individual Estimate. There will be no opportunity afforded to Members to query individual Estimates of expenditure in any way.
I contend that no parliament in Europe would allow the adoption of such a procedure. In virtually every other parliament in the world there exists a proper committee system and when estimates for expenditure are published they are considered in detail in committee. That position applies to the Houses of Congress in the United States, to which the Taoiseach referred, and to all parliaments in Europe, including the House of Commons in Britain. Other parliaments have a committee system under which individual estimates are examined in detail and a proper discussion takes place between ministers and members with a view to agreeing or otherwise to the expenditure.
However, we are not to be allowed to consider the Estimates in detail. We are being asked to approve the expenditure of £6.8 billion worth of the taxpayers money in a few hours next week without there being any individual inquiry. We are being asked to approve that money, at a rate which equates to about £7 million to £8 million per minute. Essentially, we are allowing the House to be turned——
On a point of order, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I wonder whether this intervention by Deputy Bruton is in order. The Government Chief Whip will now propose the motion on the Supplementary Order Paper, and our proposal is that it be decided without debate. The House can decide that. I submit it is not in order for Deputy Bruton to make a speech at this stage.
A Leas-Cheann Comhairle——
The Deputy will resume his seat, please, and I shall explain the position.
I have resumed my seat.
It has been the practice in recent times that in respect of motions such as this a spokesperson for the main parties is given the opportunity to make a brief comment.
The motion has not yet been put before the House.
The Taoiseach moved it. The proposal before the House——
I did not move the motion; I indicated that it was proposed that the substitute motion on the Supplementary Order Paper be decided without debate. I have not moved the motion. The Government Chief Whip will move the motion.
(Interruptions.)
On a point of order——
Deputies, the Chair had taken it that what we were now dealing with was the motion proposed this morning, consideration of which had been delayed. If the position is different from that then the Chair is happy to be guided by the House, but that was the interpretation the Chair was putting on it.
Sir, if——
Deputy Bruton will appreciate it is not the practice for long contributions to be made on motions such as this, and I ask him for his co-operation in that regard.
I understand that, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, and I do not wish to find myself in conflict with the Chair in any circumstances. I would say, however, that what the Taoiseach has proposed is that we agree to take a very tight guillotine motion without any debate and the only opportunity we have to discuss the matter, if the motion is accepted, is now, before it is decided by the House that there should be no debate on the motion. The Taoiseach's proposal to deal with the matter without debate forces the House to debate the issue before it is taken and that is because of the Government's proposal that there should be no debate on the substantive motion.
What we are discussing now is whether the motion be taken without debate.
I am saying it should not.
The Deputy has more than given that impression, and he should now allow time for comment by spokespersons from other parties.
I have no wish to find myself in conflict with the Chair and I have made most of the points I wanted to make.
But other Members have a view.
Deputy O'Keeffe, I am asking you to accept what is the precedent, that on matters such as this we take a comment from the Leaders of the parties.
May I please conclude my remarks? I wish to make two points. First, there is nothing in Standing Orders which states that in respect of a proposal to take a motion without debate the discussion on that motion be confined to one speaker from each party. I have searched Standing Orders and I have found no provision there to prevent the other 54 Members of the Fine Gael Parliamentary Party from contributing on this subject, and I wish to indicate that they will be contributing on the subject.
Furthermore, I wish to state that if the Government proceed with this proposal for a debate on the Estimates that does not allow scrutiny of individual Estimates the Fine Gael Party will take no part in that debate. That is the only course open to us to indicate our complete opposition to this procedure. I remind Members on the Government side that since I became a Member of this House I have sought to bring about Dáil reform. Fine Gael have made proposals to avoid the position we now face. We have suggested the establishment of a proper committee system under which Estimates would be examined in committee. I should hope that other Opposition parties, whose interests are being trampled upon in the same way as are the interests of Fine Gael Deputies and, indeed, the interests of Fianna Fáil and Progressive Democrat backbench Deputies, will not allow the guillotine method to be used to prevent proper parliamentary debate. I appeal to the Labour Party, who have an honourable record in this regard, and to The Workers' Party, who have an equally honourable record, to support Fine Gael's opposition to this attempted guillotine.
To put the matter in order, may I now move the motion on the supplementary order paper in substitution for item No. 6 on this morning's Order Paper?
Deputy
The Taoiseach moved it this morning.
I formally move——
I understand that the proposal that it be taken without debate must first be adjudicated upon before we can proceed to the substitute motion.
I, for one, object to it being taken without debate. I have a view, I have an electorate to represent and I object to the motion being taken without debate.
What I want to say to you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, is that there is no motion before the House. In a spirit of goodwill in response to requests this morning the Government withdrew item No. 6 on the basis that we would bring back a new item No. 6. If I am not in order please tell me, but I now want to formally propose the motion in substitution for item No. 6 on this morning's Order of Business.
Deputy Shatter will speak on that.
Deputy Shatter will speak when the Chair calls him. The Chair understands that we must first settle the proposal that the motion be taken without debate. We will then proceed to the substitute motion. The Chair does not think that we need devote any more time to that but, rather, that we should proceed to a decision as to whether it be taken without debate after hearing a brief contribution from a spokesperson or the Leaders of the other parties.
I should like to raise a point of order and I do not wish to be disorderly. May I point out that there is nothing in Standing Orders to prevent other Members speaking on the issue. I, for one, should like to speak on the matter we are now dealing with as, I know, would my colleagues.
The Chair will be guided solely by precedent in respect of the House deliberating on matters such as this, and I am going to take a further contribution.
What we have is a motion about a motion that is intended to be taken without debate. There is nothing in Standing Orders which confines any party within this House to one speaker. Equally, there is nothing that prevents other speakers, be they independent Deputies or single Deputies representing a party that has only one Deputy in the House, from speaking on this issue. I wish to put you on notice——
The Chair is indicating to the Deputy and to the House that the Chair will operate on what has been the practice here.
The guillotine.
That is how the Chair will operate and I am now asking the Deputy to permit me to call the spokesperson for the Labour Party.
On a point of order, the Taoiseach has informed the House that the motion had not been moved before I spoke. When I sat down he then moved the motion. A Fine Gael Deputy should be called to speak on the motion if the motion has only now been moved.
I asked on the Order of Business this morning that the motion, item 6 on today's Order Paper, be deferred to allow time for the Whips to meet to see if we could work out an agreed programme for dealing in a rational way with the Estimates. We met for more than an hour and, at the specific request of Fine Gael, we sought extra time to debate the Estimates. That was a reasonable request because Fine Gael have 55 Deputies and most of them would like to contribute to that discussion. It was my view and the view of the Labour Party that we should deal in a holistic way with the Estimates this year rather than having spokespersons confined to one narrow Government activity, because of the major problems now in terms of Revenue collection and over-run of budget targets. That was the proposal I put and that was accepted by the Government Chief Whip. It is a much more rational way of dealing with the Estimates to allow the implications of the over-run to be dealt with by spokespersons dealing with the Departments one at a time or across Departments if they so desire. We were not unanimous but we managed to increase the amount of debating time from the proposal this morning of 11 hours to 22½ hours. I understand from the comments of the Fine Gael Party that they will not be taking up their time, but presumably the other parties in the House will then have more time to debate the Estimates this year.
I welcome also the extra time agreed with the Government for the European debate which is extended by an hour and a half and the agreement to include parties not covered under Standing Orders as groups, so that Deputies from this side of the House who are not covered under Standing Orders will be entitled to make a contribution at that time.
I strongly support the view that we need to deal with Estimates in a different way. The sub-committee on Dáil reform of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges have already begun to deal with that issue, on which a very useful contribution has been made by Deputy Bruton. He suggested a question and answer-type discussion, but unfortunately that will not happen on this occasion.
The further suggestion today that an Estimates Committee be established in advance of the debate here is a very worthwhile one also. In view of the decision of the Government to more than double the allocation of time for the Estimates and the concession by the Government in accepting the proposal to discuss the Estimates in a holistic way so that we can deal with the problems in the economy now, the overshot in expenditure and the shortfall in income from the Revenue side, the Labour Party will not be opposing the order.
You would not deal with the estimates from Wexford County Council in a holistic way.
They were already agreed to the previous week.
This is the difference.
(Interruptions.)
Part of the problem appears to be that there is a number of council meetings scheduled for next Thursday and that that cuts across the availability of Deputies for the debate.
(Interruptions.)
I think the chickens are coming home to roost for many Deputies who were very prominent in catcalling across the Floor here to me in regard to the dual mandate. It is interesting how many Deputies on all sides of this House now have a dual mandate and I am delighted it has become so popular. However, I do not think it should be allowed to interfere with the business of this House. The arrangement now arrived at of doubling the time available for the Estimates is a welcome change in the proposal that was presented to us here this morning.
Like other Deputies I am not at all satisfied that we deal adequately with the Estimates in this House. I do not think it is proper that Estimates should be dealt with on the basis of a Deputy standing up in this House for five or ten minutes and trying to express a view about what should or should not be in the Estimates or how they should be increased or decreased and so on. I do not accept either that it is entirely proper that the Estimates in total should be passed through this House on the basis of a single vote. At the same time I do not accept that this Dáil is constrained by the law in this matter, because the Constitution does not specify that the Estimates have to be dealt with individually. We must find a more rational way of dealing with the business of this House. We will not do it this week. Calls have been made by all parties for a committee system and it is something that should be addressed, during the summer recess perhaps, with a view to producing something for this House by the time the next budget comes around.
It is not an entirely satisfactory situation but I do believe we have stretched the times sufficiently to enable Deputies to make an adequate contribution to the debate over the next five days. I do believe we should get on with our business. There are other important matters to be dealt with here today. However, I would appeal to Government to produce the programme of Dáil reform which was promised here two years ago so that we can seriously deal with the very many questions and avoid the practice of rushing through legislation and Estimates at the last minute.
The Chair is going to endeavour now to make some sort of sense of the business of the House. We had this morning a motion before the House on which there was agreement that a substitute motion would presently be put before the House and that that motion would be taken without debate.
No, Sir, it was not agreed.
I did not say it was agreed, please listen. I am now going to put the question that the substitute item 6 be taken without debate.
On a point of order, Sir, I would like the opportunity to contribute to the debate that we are having on whether we take this motion without debate.
And indeed I would, too.
There is a long-established precedent for what the Chair is doing now and I ask you to co-operate with the Chair in allowing the Chair put the question so that we can get on with the business.
Sir, I am most anxious not to get into conflict with the Chair.
You can do that by resuming your seat now.
On a point of order——
Sir, on a point of order——
We are entitled to make a point of order in the context of a matter of such serious concern.
Deputy Shatter, the Chair——
We are entitled under Standing Orders to speak on this matter.
The Deputy is not entitled to challenge the decision of the Chair which is given in accordance with the tradition of the House since it was established.
(Interruptions.)
The tradition——
I am proceeding now to put the question that substitute item No. 6 be taken without debate.
On a point of order——
The motion is carried.
(Interruptions.)
On a point of order——
On a point of order——
On a point of order——
(Interruptions.)
I am putting the question that substitute motion No. 6 be taken without debate.
We object.
This matter was not dealt with and concluded.
On a point of order——
I am now putting the question on substitute motion No. 6. The motion is carried. Because the members of one party say it is not carried, that does not mean anything, the motion is carried and we are now proceeding——
(Interruptions.)
Under the rules of procedure a Member is entitled to rise on a point of order.
The Chair should quote Standing Orders.
Deputy Pat Rabbitte.
On a point of order——
(Interruptions.)
Will Deputies Enright and Shatter please resume their seats?
Under the rules of procedure a Member is entitled to raise a point of order
The motion is carried. Is the Deputy looking for a vote?
(Interruptions.)
The Chair should quote Standing Orders.
We are entitled to have a vote on this matter.
We are opposed to it and we wish to have a vote on it.
The Deputies did not call for a vote.
(Interruptions.)
A Deputy
Vótáil.
I am putting the question that substitute motion No. 6 be decided without debate.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 77; Níl, 46.
Tá
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Barrett, Michael.
- Brady, Gerard.
- Brady, Vincent.
- Brennan, Mattie.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, John (Wexford).
- Calleary, Seán.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Clohessy, Peadar.
- Connolly, Ger.
- Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Cullimore, Séamus.
- Daly, Brendan.
- Davern, Noel.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- Dennehy, John.
- de Valera, Síle.
- Ellis, John.
- Fahey, Frank.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Morley, P.J.
- Nolan, M.J.
- Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
- O'Dea, Willie.
- O'Donoghue, John.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Ned.
- O'Kennedy, Michael.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Desmond J.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- O'Toole, Martin Joe.
- Fahey, Jackie.
- Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
- Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
- Flood, Chris.
- Flynn, Pádraig.
- Foxe, Tom.
- Garland, Roger.
- Harney, Mary.
- Haughey, Charles J.
- Hillery, Brian.
- Hilliard, Colm.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kelly, Laurence.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Lawlor, Liam.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Leyden, Terry.
- Lyons, Denis.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McDaid, Jim.
- McEllistrim, Tom.
- Power, Seán.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Roche, Dick.
- Smith, Michael.
- Stafford, John.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Tunney, Jim.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Wallace, Mary.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Wilson, John P.
- Woods, Michael.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Níl
- Ahearn, Therese.
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barnes, Monica.
- Belton, Louis J.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Connor, John.
- Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
- Cotter, Bill.
- Creed, Michael.
- Crowley, Frank.
- Currie, Austin.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- Doyle, Joe.
- Durkan, Bernard.
- Enright, Thomas W.
- Farrelly, John V.
- Fennell, Nuala.
- Finucane, Michael.
- FitzGerald, Garret.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Flanagan, Charles.
- Harte, Paddy.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Lee, Pat.
- Lowry, Michael.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- McGrath, Paul.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- Owen, Nora.
- Reynolds, Gerry.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Sheehan, Patrick J.
- Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies Flanagan and Boylan.
Question declared carried.
I now call on the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Vincent Brady, to move the motion.
I move:
That notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders or in the Resolution of the Dáil of 2nd July relating to Sittings and Business—
(1) on Friday, 5th July, the Dáil shall meet at 11.30 a.m. and shall adjourn not later than 4 p.m.;
(2) on Tuesday, 9th July, and on Wednesday, 10th July, business shall be interrupted at 10.30 p.m. and 10 p.m. respectively; the Government business shall not be interrupted on those days at the time fixed for taking private Members' business;
(3) on Thursday, 11th July, Questions to Ministers shall not be taken and the Dáil shall adjourn not later than 5 p.m.;
(4) on Friday, 12th July, the Dáil shall meet at 10.30 a.m. and shall adjourn on the conclusion of the business to be taken on that day;
(5) the motions relating to the Agreement on Social Security between Ireland and Australia and to the Fifth Protocol to the General Agreement on Privileges and Immunities of the Council of Europe shall be decided without debate;
(6) on Tuesday, 9th July, Members shall be permitted to make statements on the recent European Council meeting and the following arrangements shall apply:—
(a) the opening statement of the Taoiseach shall not exceed 45 minutes;
(b) the statement of the main spokesperson for each of the groups [as defined in Standing Order 89 (1)] in Opposition shall not exceed 40 minutes;
(c) the statement of each other Member called on shall not exceed 10 minutes; and
(d) a member of the Government shall be called on not later than 8.15 p.m. to make a statement in reply not exceeding 15 minutes;
(7) on Wednesday, 10th July, following the announcement by the Taoiseach at the commencement of public business regarding the order in which Government business is to be taken and until 7 p.m. on that day, Members shall be permitted to make statements on Agriculture subject to the following arrangements:—
(a) the statement of the Minister for Agriculture shall not exceed 40 minutes;
(b) the statement of the main spokesperson for each of the groups [as defined in Standing Order 89 (1)] in Opposition shall not exceed 30 minutes; and
(c) the statement of each other Member called on shall not exceed 20 minutes;
(8) leave is hereby given to introduce a Supplementary Estimate for International Co-operation for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1991; and
(9) the Estimates for Public Services and Supplementary Estimates for Houses of the Oireachtas and the European Assembly and for International Co-operation for the service of ending 31st December, 1991, shall be moved together and the following arrangements shall apply;
(a) a general debate may arise thereon;
(b) the speech of each Member in the course of the debate shall not exceed one hour; and
(c) a member of the Government shall be called on not later than 3.30 p.m. on Friday, 12th July, to reply to the debate the proceedings thereon shall be brought to a conclusion by one Question which shall be put from the Chair at 4 p.m. on that day; and if a division is demanded thereon, such division shall be taken forthwith."
I am opposed to this motion. If this motion is passed it will be the first time in the history of Dáil Éireann that the Estimates have been rammed through this House——
(Interruptions.)
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 74; Níl 46.
Tá
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Brady, Vincent.
- Brennan, Mattie.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, John (Wexford).
- Calleary, Seán.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Clohessy, Peadar.
- Connolly, Ger.
- Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Cullimore, Séamus.
- Daly, Brendan.
- Davern, Noel.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- Dennehy, John.
- de Valera, Síle.
- Ellis, John.
- Fahey, Frank.
- Fahey, Jackie.
- Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
- Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
- Flood, Chris.
- Flynn, Pádraig.
- Garland, Roger.
- Harney, Mary.
- Haughey, Charles J.
- Hillery, Brian.
- Hilliard, Colm.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kelly, Laurence.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Barrett, Michael.
- Brady, Gerard.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Lawlor, Liam.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Leyden, Terry.
- Lyons, Denis.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McDaid, Jim.
- McEllistrim, Tom.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Morley, P.J.
- Nolan, M.J.
- Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
- O'Dea, Willie.
- O'Donoghue, John.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Ned.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Desmond J.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- O'Toole, Martin Joe.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Roche, Dick.
- Smith, Michael.
- Stafford, John.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Tunney, Jim.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Wallace, Mary.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Wilson, John P.
- Woods, Michael.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Níl
- Ahearn, Therese.
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barnes, Monica.
- Belton, Louis J.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenney).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Connor, John.
- Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
- Cotter, Bill.
- Creed, Michael.
- Crowley, Frank.
- Currie, Austin.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- Doyle, Joe.
- Durkan, Bernard.
- Enright, Thomas W.
- Farrelly, John V.
- Fennell, Nuala.
- Finucane, Michael.
- FitzGerald, Garret.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Flanagan, Charles.
- Harte, Paddy.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Lee, Pat.
- Lowry, Michael.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- McGrath, Paul.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- Owen, Nora.
- Reynolds, Gerry.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Sheehan, Patrick J.
- Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy: Níl, Deputies Flanagan and Boylan.
Question declared carried.
I was in the photocopying room when the division bells rang. I noticed that a Deputy in the photocopying room would not hear the bells and there is not a monitor to tell him that a vote will take place in the House. I would like to bring this matter formally to your attention, Sir.
Thank you for drawing that matter to my attention, Deputy. I shall have it investigated as a matter of urgency.