Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 22 Nov 1991

Vol. 413 No. 4

Order of Business.

The Tánaiste

It is proposed to take No. 13.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the following arrangements shall apply: (a) the Question necessary to bring the proceedings on Votes 30 and 40 to a conclusion shall be put not later than 12.30 p.m. and 4 p.m. respectively; (b) in each case, the speech of each Member called on shall not exceed 20 minutes and the concluding speech of the Minister shall not exceed ten minutes. (c) any division demanded today shall be postponed until 6.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 27 November 1991.

An Ceann Comhairle

Are the proposals for dealing with No. 13, that is, in respect to Vote 30 and Vote 40, satisfactory and agreed to? Agreed.

Is the proposal that any division demanded today shall be postponed until next Wednesday satisfactory? Agreed.

Mr. J. Bruton

I should like to raise two items. I know that the Tánaiste would wish that taking Vote 30 today, the Vote for the Marine, would afford Members of all parties an opportunity to express their sympathy with those who lost their lives last night in the collision between the Kilkenny and the Hasselwerder and also their congratulation and appreciation to the rescue services in the work that they have done. I know that the Tánaiste would wish to take that opportunity and I wish to record my party's concern in the matter.

The second point I wish to raise, with your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, is a question to the Tánaiste asking whether the Government will take an early opportunity here in the House to deny reports that have appeared in the papers suggesting that the Government are abandoning their budgetary targets, because that would have a grave effect in lost jobs, higher interest rates and an inability for Ireland to take full membership in economic and monetary union.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy——

Mr. J. Bruton

I hope that the Tánaiste will be able to deny firmly the reports in the papers——

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter is clearly one for another occasion. It is not relevant now.

Mr. J. Bruton

——that the budget targets are being abandoned. It would be a grave mistake to do so.

The Tánaiste

I wish to make just one comment on that matter. I consider myself to be very good at hearing and fairly sharp of eye and I have not heard or seen anything about that officially.

Mr. J. Mitchell

It is in the paper this morning.

Mr. J. Bruton

Could I show the Tánaiste this morning's Irish Times——

An Ceann Comhairle

Demonstrations of that kind are not in order in the House.

The Tánaiste

As the Taoiseach often says, too much attention to newspaper headlines can be bad for the soul.

Mr. J. Bruton

I am prepared to take spiritual advice from the Tánaiste but no other form. The fact is that this report is fundamentally destabilising and should be clarified at an early date——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy.

Mr. J. Bruton

——in the national interest. If that is not the intention that should be——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Bruton is clearly in breach of Standing Orders.

Mr. Quinn

In relation to the Order of Business, the House understood until quite late yesterday that today in the House European affairs would be discussed. By agreement we are not now discussing European affairs, we are taking the Estimates; but we will next Thursday and Friday, I understand, be taking the Maastricht Summit debate as well as two reports on European affairs. In respect of Thursday and Friday — and I hope that I am in order, Sir — I understand that the Labour Party Whip and the Whips from both Fine Gael and The Workers' Party conveyed suggestions of motions to be considered in the debate. Could I ask the Tánaiste if the Government at this stage are prepared to have such a debate instead of the traditional series of statements, that there will in fact be a debate with a motion and a vote?

The Tánaiste

There will be a motion. The points put forward by the Whips will be taken into consideration. The motion is being put together at the moment.

Mr. Quinn

That is fine. I first thank the Tánaiste for that response. I also wish to be associated with the remarks made earlier by Deputy Bruton in relation to the accident in Dublin Bay. With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, could I further ask the Minister for the Environment, who is present in the House, whether he has communicated to the local authorities the rate support grant or when they will hear of it? I think he might in the interest of national importance——

An Ceann Comhairle

This matter was dealt with on the Adjournment last evening, actually. I now call on Deputy De Rossa. I shall call Deputy Gregory shortly.

Proinsias De Rossa

I sought yesterday on the Order of Business to raise the question of who was representing the public interest at the Beef Tribunal. You indicated that I was out of order on that occasion and that I should seek some other way to raise the matter. I have since sought to raise the matter by way of Private Notice Question and by Adjournment debate. They also have been ruled out of order. May I ask the Ceann Comhairle whether he can indicate what other avenues are now open to me to raise this important matter in this House? It was the House that established this Tribunal——

An Ceann Comhairle

Surely the Deputy is not going to make a speech.

Proinsias De Rossa

It has been stated categorically by people participating in this Tribunal that the public interest is not being represented specifically by Counsel.

An Ceann Comhairle

I can tell the Deputy——

Proinsias De Rossa

May I ask whether the Tánaiste could indicate whether new instructions will be issued to the Attorney General——

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy De Rossa——

Proinsias De Rossa

——or whether the Attorney General will issue new instructions.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, Deputy De Rossa——

Proinsias De Rossa

This is ridiculous.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy De Rossa, I am on my feet and the Deputy will resume his seat. The matter to which the Deputy refers is within the competence of the Tribunal of Inquiry on the Meat Industry; therefore, in accordance with long-standing precedent, it must be regarded as being sub judice.

Proinsias De Rossa

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy De Rossa, please hear me. How dare the Deputy interrupt me while I am making an announcement to the House.

Proinsias De Rossa

I did not intend to interrupt you, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not finished, Deputy. Without precedent I am making this announcement to clarify the matter. As the Deputy will appreciate, the Chairman of the Tribunal ruled on this matter at the hearing of the Tribunal on Wednesday last. Accordingly, to allow the matter be raised obviously could prejudice, or be seen as undue interference in a judicial hearing. The fact that the Tribunal was established by resolution of this House does not give the Dáil a right to attempt to intervene in its proceedings. The resolution of the House was in pursuance of statute, of the Tribunal of Inquiry Acts, 1920 to 1979, whereby the conduct of the hearings held thereunder clearly are the sole responsibility of its judicial chairman. Accordingly, the matter raised by the Deputy had to be ruled out of order on the grounds of its being sub judice.

Proinsias De Rossa

May I make it clear that my purpose is not in any way to interfere with the operations of the Tribunal? The point I was making relates directly to the instructions which the Attorney General has issued to Counsel on behalf——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not prepared to have this matter debated now, Deputy.

Proinsias De Rossa

I am not debating it, a Cheann Comhairle. I am simply clarifying.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is challenging the ruling of the Chair on this matter.

Proinsias De Rossa

No, a Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have ruled on the matter.

Proinsias De Rossa

No, I am simply clarifying that the Attorney General is a servant of the people——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is arguing the matter.

Proinsias De Rossa

I am not arguing. I am simply trying to make clear that we do not have a responsibility to ensure that the public interest is represented.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have set out the position so far as I am concerned.

Mr. J. Bruton

On a point of order on that matter, would the Ceann Comhairle not agree that if there is a lacuna in the terms of reference of the Tribunal and those terms were set by this House, it is appropriate for this House to inquire, not as to the workings of the Tribunal but as to whether the terms of reference need to be amplified or clarified in regard to representation of the public interest and that that aspect is in order?

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot be expected to rule on hypothetical questions. If these matters arise I will rule on them at the appropriate time.

Mr. J. Bruton

May I give you notice, Sir, that I wish you to consider that matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

All right, Deputy. I would be glad if the Deputy would communicate with me on the matter so that I can clearly see the issue.

Mr. Quinn

On the same matter and, wishing to comply with your rulings in this House, Deputy De Rossa has identified a concern shared by all of us and which according to your rulings, not being disputed, cannot be properly raised in this House. But since the Tribunal was set up by a resolution of this House in the first place it is appropriate that the mechanism be explored whereby the public interest can be represented. May I ask you, Sir, to meet with representatives of the parties today to discuss at the earliest possible opportunity in what way the public interest can be properly represented since the disavowal of the public interest has been declared at the Tribunal so far.

An Ceann Comhairle

I understand that the public interest is being represented and has been said to be represented.

Mr. Quinn

No, Sir.

Mr. McCartan

No, the Attorney General has said he is not doing it.

Mr. Quinn

That is my very point.

Mr. McCartan

The Chairman of the Tribunal has said it was not his function. There is no one there to represent the public interest.

Mr. J. Bruton

I think, Sir, you might take a look at it.

Mr. Quinn

With respect, Sir, I do not think the floor of the House is the place for this matter to be discussed. If we could meet with representatives of your office and have the matter clarified, then within the orders of this House perhaps a representative of the Government would be in a position to respond.

Mr. J. Bruton

Agreed.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am quite happy to meet Members in connection with the matter, but unless I am convinced to the contrary the position I have outlined to the House is the stand I am taking on the matter.

Mr. Quinn

A Cheann Comhairle, I thank you for giving me attention in relation to this matter. I trust that the Tánaiste has listened to the exchange and will take the appropriate action.

Mr. G. O'Sullivan

In view of the fact that the Tánaiste was at the scene of the tragedy in Dublin Bay early this morning would it be appropriate for him to make a statement to the House regarding this tragic occurrence? I should like to convey my sympathy to the relatives of the victim of that tragic occurrence. Before taking the Estimate would it not be appropriate that the Tánaiste would make a statement in the House on this matter?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Estimate for the Marine will be before the House this morning.

Mr. G. O'Sullivan

This occurrence warrants the Tánaiste making some statement because he was there and has firsthand knowledge of it.

Mr. McCartan

On behalf of The Workers' Party group I join other Members in conveying sympathy to the relatives of the seaman whose life has been lost and hope that the other two will be found safe and well.

On another matter, may I inquire of the Tánaiste whether in view of the controversy that appears to surround the decision of the Minister for Justice yesterday to release a prisoner from the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum, as a matter of urgency the Government will bring forward the Criminal Insanity Bill so that we can legislate for this overall area, putting in place a scheme based on new law before Christmas?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is this legislation promised?

Deputies

It is.

The Tánaiste

Is legislation promised?

Mr. McCartan

Yes.

The Tánaiste

I can say that the Government are seized of this particular problem as of now.

An Ceann Comhairle

We need not get into argument about it now.

Mr. McCartan

A Cheann Comhairle: on this matter I wish to advise the Tánaiste that it is a little more serious than saying that the Government have nothing to do with it.

The Tánaiste

I beg your pardon, a Cheann Comhairle, I did not say that. I said the Government are seized of this particular problem as of now which means totally engaged, in the strict sense of the words.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. McCartan

In order to clarify the matter may I say that for some two years or thereabouts the Minister for Justice has been promising legislation in this area. In the review of the Programme for Government, page 22——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has put his question and it has been replied to.

Mr. McCartan

No, it has not been. The Tánaiste says that the Government are not seized of it. I am trying to clarify——

The Tánaiste

I said the Government are seized of it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Are seized of.

Mr. McCartan

I will not detain the House any longer than this: now that I understand the Government are seized of it my question is: could the matter be brought forward as a matter of urgency and perhaps be dealt with in the House before Christmas?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Lee is offering.

Mr. McCartan

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy, I am calling Deputy Lee. This cannot go on.

Mr. McCartan

A Cheann Comhairle, if a Member of the House cannot ask a question and at least expect a reply——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have permitted the Deputy to ask many questions. It is not my fault if a Member does not wish to reply.

Mr. McCartan

My question simply was: when would legislation be introduced in view of the urgency? I do not expect the Chair to wave me down on the basis that I have in some way——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have afforded the Deputy an opportunity of putting the question. It is not the fault of the Chair if he does not get a reply.

Mr. McCartan

How can I seek an answer, Sir, when you wave me down?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy McCartan, bullying the Chair will get you nowhere.

Mr. McCartan

I am not bullying, I am trying to get an answer from the Tánaiste on an urgent matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

Indeed, you are. I am calling Deputy Lee.

Mr. McCartan

A Cheann Comhairle, you are being dismissive, particularly of this party.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a very unfair accusation.

Mr. McCartan

Well, I am fed up with your handling of this party.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy McCartan, please, there is no justification for that allegation.

Mr. McCartan

There is every justification, Sir. If you had the courtesy to meet the Leader of my party——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy McCartan, you are abusing the Chair from a sitting position. I must now ask you to withdraw these remarks or leave the House.

Mr. McCartan

Well, a Cheann Comhairle, I do not seek in any way to disparage the Chair or your position in the House. I will withdraw the remarks. I am sorry that they had to be made but I am feeling very frustrated.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy McCartan will unreservedly withdraw those remarks.

Mr. McCartan

I have withdrawn them.

Dr. Lee

Apropos the tragic event in Dublin Bay last night would the Tánaiste confirm that there were two containers of metal-acrylate on board the M. V. Kilkenny and that these——

An Ceann Comhairle

I want to help the Deputy. Please, Deputy, there will be an Estimate before the House if we can get on to it. That may well be an appropriate question to pose then.

Mr. Byrne

I should like to join other Members of the House in requesting that the Tánaiste convey our condolences to the family of the victim of the tragic crash in Dublin Bay last night. Would he assure the House that in the interests of the safety of passenger and commercial traffic in the bay and harbour area he will investigate those tragic events as a matter of urgency because of the grave concern expressed by so many people?